Play Examples in TTRPG Manuals

[Notafish]

I know why it's done, but think it's funny how all play examples in RPG manuals show GMs and players with perfect understanding of the rules and a mutual understanding of etiquette rules (e.g., the GM never needs to look up rules; it's always clear whether players are speaking for themselves or their characters). Just once, I want to see something like:


Ace (GM): The orc bellows a war cry and runs toward you, brandishing a spear. What do you do?

Gary (playing Alice, the halfling rogue): I make a Stealth check to hide, to set up a sneak attack! (rolls dice) I got a 17! Does that succeed?

Ace: Hang on, where is Alice hiding?! She's in full view of the orc!

Gary: Oh, uh, she ducks behind the rubble over here (indicates a point on the map).

Ace: Well, your movement is 25 feet and that location is 40 feet away. Also, the orc is definitely watching you while you move.

Gary: I use my action to Dash and I hide with a cunning action. Also, it's dark, so shouldn't I be partially obscured?

Ace: Oh crap, I forgot rogues have that feature. Hang on a sec, I need to look up whether you can hide while.. wait, does the handbook call it "partially obscured" or "lightly obscured"?

Gary: ok, but if I can do it, I want to keep my roll. is that ok?

[Lapak]

I know why it's done, but think it's funny how all play examples in RPG manuals show GMs and players with perfect understanding of the rules and a mutual understanding of etiquette rules (e.g., the GM never needs to look up rules; it's always clear whether players are speaking for themselves or their characters). Just once, I want to see something like:


Ace (GM): The orc bellows a war cry and runs toward you, brandishing a spear. What do you do?

Gary (playing Alice, the halfling rogue): I make a Stealth check to hide, to set up a sneak attack! (rolls dice) I got a 17! Does that succeed?

Ace: Hang on, where is Alice hiding?! She's in full view of the orc!

Gary: Oh, uh, she ducks behind the rubble over here (indicates a point on the map).

Ace: Well, your movement is 25 feet and that location is 40 feet away. Also, the orc is definitely watching you while you move.

Gary: I use my action to Dash and I hide with a cunning action. Also, it's dark, so shouldn't I be partially obscured?

Ace: Oh crap, I forgot rogues have that feature. Hang on a sec, I need to look up whether you can hide while.. wait, does the handbook call it "partially obscured" or "lightly obscured"?

Gary: ok, but if I can do it, I want to keep my roll. is that ok?
The 1e DMG does some of this, but it's in more of the tone of "DM reminding the players" kind of thing, so it's still in the tone of 'DM knows the answers' - the DM reminds the players they need to figure out their marching order, that torches will spoil infravision, etc.

The 2e PHB combat example also has some of it, in the form of 'player who needs to be reminded not to Fireball their teammates...twice' and some back-and-forth on speed factors that actually does approach what you're talking about.

[Grod_The_Giant]

An actual play example can serve one of two purposes: to demonstrate a particular rule, or to give you an impression of the game's themes. Neither format is particularly helped by including a bunch of back-and-forth table talk and uncertainty.

[Notafish]

An actual play example can serve one of two purposes: to demonstrate a particular rule, or to give you an impression of the game's themes. Neither format is particularly helped by including a bunch of back-and-forth table talk and uncertainty.

Yeah I know - I was primarily intending to make a joke out of noticing that the fictional players in manuals are much better at the games than I am :)

I think that examples of healthy vs. unhealthy interactions might be helpful, in some situations, though - I've never read the TSR D&D books, but what Lapak was describing does sound along these lines. On reflection, I think also that the game-running advice in the 5e DMG could be helped by showing dialogue examples of how one might go about setting expectations, discussing/arguing the rules, etc (especially if they used edited examples based on what worked in playtesting rather than pure inventions like my little skit).

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly if an example of play included players as bad as some as I've encountered (this is your third session of Pathfinder, how are you not getting 'use a d20 for attacks and skill checks') then I'd put the book down.

On the other hand I think the 2e combat example does a very good job at using less skilled players to get the intended tone across. Especially the fireball happy message.

Honestly a line where a player forgets how to do something, or where the GM actually does not follow the book could possibly be helpful sometimes in getting across how a game actually plays. But we're now in such a standard I'm not sure anybody really read the examples of play anymore. They're a bit like a dating site profile, it's nice to have but you know that even new people are ignoring it.

[Lapak]

On the other hand I think the 2e combat example does a very good job at using less skilled players to get the intended tone across. Especially the fireball happy message.The second round (after the fighter has charged into combat, preventing the mage from fireballing in the first round) is probably my favorite.



Players (all at once): "I'm going to..." "Is he going?..." "I'm casting a ..."
DM (shouting):"One at a time! Rath?"
Harry: "I'll blow my horn of blasting."
DM: "It'll take time to dig it out."
Harry: "I don't care, I'm doing it."
Jon: "Draw my sword and attack one of the trolls!"
Anne (Not paying attention to the other two): "Cast a fireball."
Harry and Jon: "NO! DON'T!"
DM: "Well, is that what you're doing? Quickly!"
Anne: "No, I'll cast a haste spell! Centered on me, so Rupert and Rath are just at the edge."
DM: "Okay. Harry, roll initiative and everyone modify for your actions."

[It then breaks down how the initiative goes and the round plays out, e.g. Rath goes at init + 3 due to using a miscellaneous magical item. Side note: one thing I did like from by-the-book 2e combat was the "declare actions, then roll init" pattern. It made decision making trickier and combat a little more chaotic.]

[JadedDM]

This was the first round:


Rath is leading a party through the corridors of a dungeon. Right behind him are Rupert and Delsenora. Rounding a bend, they see a group of orcs and trolls about 20 feet away. No one is surprised by the encounter.

The DM has notes telling him the orcs are hesitant. He secretly decides that they will fall back and let the trolls fight. The trolls, able to regenerate, are naturally overconfident and step forward to the front rank (cursing the orcs at the same time) and prepare to attack. Turning to the players, the DM asks, “What are you going to do?”

Harry (playing Rath, a dwarf who hates orcs): “Orcs?—CHARGE!”

Anne (playing Delsenora the wizard): “Uh--what!? Wait--don't do that... I was going to... now I can't use a fireball.”

DM: “Rath is charging forward. Quick--what are you doing?”

Jon (playing Rupert, the half-elf, to Anne): “Cast a spell! (To DM) Can I fire my bow over him?”

DM: “Sure, he's short.”

Jon: “OK, I'll shoot at orcs.”

DM: “Anne, tell me what Delsenora's doing or she'll lose the round trying to make up her mind!”

Anne: “Got it!--Acid arrow spell at the lead troll.”

DM: “Fine. Harry, Rath is in front. Roll for initiative.”

Poor Anne never does get to use that Fireball spell.

[Chauncymancer]

An actual play example can serve one of two purposes: to demonstrate a particular rule, or to give you an impression of the game's themes. Neither format is particularly helped by including a bunch of back-and-forth table talk and uncertainty.
In several PbtA games, including Apocalypse World, 'one player gets it wrong and is corrected by another' is used several times, apocryphaly because they were the rules considered tricky by playtesters.

[Vahnavoi]

A play example is meant to serve as a model for how a rule is supposed to work. Mixing the message by showing a rule not working is counter productive.

This said, Grindhouse Edition of Lamentations of the Flame Princess has a long, quite realistic deciption of a session. The only time I've seen someone waste time discussing it was when someone complained about how the sample has an awful "Gotcha!" GM. :smalltongue:

[Devils_Advocate]

More realistic examples of play (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Examples_of_Play)


An actual play example can serve one of two purposes: to demonstrate a particular rule, or to give you an impression of the game's themes. Neither format is particularly helped by including a bunch of back-and-forth table talk and uncertainty.

A play example is meant to serve as a model for how a rule is supposed to work. Mixing the message by showing a rule not working is counter productive.
I think that there's value in showing examples of problems that might come up during a game and ways to attempt to address them. Is it better for everyone to be unprepared when inevitably something doesn't work how it's supposed to? Just as examples of good play may help a group to play well, examples of bad play may help them to avoid mistakes. Although... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_stuff_beans_up_your_nose)

And of course, there haven't really been any problems yet if everyone is getting along fine and having fun without difficulty, even if they've gotten rules or lore wrong or completely departed from the intended mood. The characters may be encountering problems, but that's part of how things are supposed to go.


(this is your third session of Pathfinder, how are you not getting 'use a d20 for attacks and skill checks')
I'd hazard a guess that the player is used to a different system. Learning a new game can be easier in some ways for someone in no way familiar with anything similar, as there is then no need to unlearn old habits.

See, this is something that an RPG book could give an example of how to handle! GM feels like player isn't trying to learn rules, GM expresses frustration, player explains what's making learning rules difficult, GM hopefully feels better? And then ideally the book goes on to illustrate how a GM and player can work together to help a player to learn faster, but that may be asking a bit much. Not sure that there's much to say beyond "Some players take longer than others to learn various things for various reasons".


Poor Anne never does get to use that Fireball spell.
*sad violin music*

[Vahnavoi]

I think that there's value in showing examples of problems that might come up during a game and ways to attempt to address them. Is it better for everyone to be unprepared when inevitably something doesn't work how it's supposed to? Just as examples of good play may help a group to play well, examples of bad play may help them to avoid mistakes. Although... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_stuff_beans_up_your_nose)

That humorous essay and articles it links to pretty much explain what the problem with negative rules is, put to simplify a bit:

1) Positive statements - "do this" - are often less ambiguous than negative statements - "don't do this." The reason: for any given activity, there are likely more ways to do it wrong than right. Expressing the same rule in terms of negative statements can be vastly more complicated. Imagine trying to explain a basic cake recipe using only "don't do this" statements.

2) Human memory has limits.

Corollary: Due to 1), it's unlikely you can give exhaustive examples of how a rule could be interpreted. Due to 2), the more you try, the more likely you make it that the players only remember or fixate on the negative examples at the cost of remembering the positive example.

An example of bad play - a negative "don't do this" example - can be useful when you're writing in natural language and some word has semantic ambiguity - two valid but different meanings leading to conflicting interpretations. "This means this; it doesn't mean that." Use this device sparingly. Overdo it, and you end up creating semantic ambiguity and arguments.

[KorvinStarmast]

An actual play example can serve one of two purposes: to demonstrate a particular rule, or to give you an impression of the game's themes. Neither format is particularly helped by including a bunch of back-and-forth table talk and uncertainty. This is correct. Examples in math text books don't show how to not solve the problem. :smallbiggrin: (Some math books will have a section on 'common errors' but others will not).

Honestly if an example of play included players as bad as some as I've encountered (this is your third session of Pathfinder, how are you not getting 'use a d20 for attacks and skill checks') then I'd put the book down.


A play example is meant to serve as a model for how a rule is supposed to work. Mixing the message by showing a rule not working is counter productive. This is said better than what I was going to post, +1. :smallsmile:

[Lord Torath]

The AD&D First Quest boxed set released around 1994 had a player who wanted their thief to step into a well and "float lightly down" (It's magic, right?). The DM in the example had to say "well, you can try it, but I can tell you, you will squish like a pancake" or something like that. They had it both in- and out-of-character on the audio CD.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'd hazard a guess that the player is used to a different system. Learning a new game can be easier in some ways for someone in no way familiar with anything similar, as there is then no need to unlearn old habits.

They were most used to Mutants & Masterminds, I'm shocked they didn't default to the d20 for everything.

But yes. Sadly my university group consisted of scientists and engineers, so I'm just too used to people picking up systems quickly. Plus the one player in that group who did have issues with rules tended to sit next to a player with much more patience than me.

[Psyren]

An actual play example can serve one of two purposes: to demonstrate a particular rule, or to give you an impression of the game's themes. Neither format is particularly helped by including a bunch of back-and-forth table talk and uncertainty.

They often do both. The Starfinder example - er, for example - has a flashy human Solarian who is live-streaming their fight, even turning to smile for the group's drone-camera before making his attack, and spouting a catchphrase after he downs an opponent. (He is then promptly crit in the face with a laser.)



The 2e PHB combat example also has some of it, in the form of 'player who needs to be reminded not to Fireball their teammates...twice' and some back-and-forth on speed factors that actually does approach what you're talking about.

Honestly, that latter would just be a sign to me as a designer that I had come up with something so convoluted that table debate about how it works is to be expected. That'd be a red flag to go back to the lab, not a funny anecdote for inclusion in the final book.

I'll give 2e a pass though since it was still the nascent years of TTRPG design.

[quinron]

I'd hazard a guess that the player is used to a different system. Learning a new game can be easier in some ways for someone in no way familiar with anything similar, as there is then no need to unlearn old habits.

I pretty much always have at least one new player in my group, and usually I tell them only to put out the d20 and the one die they use for weapon damage so they don't get confused. I've had more than one player rolling the d8 or d10 for attacks by the third session.

I think the "perfect etiquette & knowledge" examples are good for the player books, but I think it'd be helpful for GMs to have some more chaotic, realistic examples. Arguably the most important job a GM has is teaching new players, since bringing in new people is how we keep the hobby going; showing some positive examples of how to handle players making mistakes, not remembering all their features, and especially doing something you weren't prepared for would be helpful.

[NorthernPhoenix]

I think it's a good idea that the "example of play" doesn't tell you to argue or otherwise play negatively, it's showing you how they ideally want you to play, not how to awkwardly muddle through, after all. And the modern form of examples of play, (actual play media) usually follow this pattern, where they either just don't or cut out looking up rules and/or arguing unless it's exceptionally entertaining, rather than unpleasant.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think it's a good idea that the "example of play" doesn't tell you to argue or otherwise play negatively, it's showing you how they ideally want you to play, not how to awkwardly muddle through, after all. And the modern form of examples of play, (actual play media) usually follow this pattern, where they either just don't or cut out looking up rules and/or arguing unless it's exceptionally entertaining, rather than unpleasant.

At the same time, we shouldn't be telling people that referencing the rules or player/GM negotiation is a thing to be avoided. In fact I'd say that they're things that should be encouraged and the 'almighty GM' viewpoint heavily discouraged.

But I'll admit that there's a difference between looking up spells and grinding the game to a halt over the rules for acid.

The 2e example is great not because the game grinds to a halt, but because one player is just paying less attention than everybody else.