Is there room for a divine caster, in the vein of the warlock?

[thorr-kan]

Is there room for a divine caster, in the vein of the warlock?

I'm thinking spellcasting similar to Pact Magic, if not exactly the same. Not Pacts, per se, but something similar of a divine nature. With a similar feature to take the place of invocations.

If this has already been handled by a third-party, let me know.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is there room for a divine caster, in the vein of the warlock?

I'm thinking spellcasting similar to Pact Magic, if not exactly the same. Not Pacts, per se, but something similar of a divine nature. With a similar feature to take the place of invocations.

If this has already been handled by a third-party, let me know. What are you looking for that the Celestial patron (https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/warlock#TheCelestial), Warlock, in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, won't do for you? :smallconfused:
I am currently playing one and she's great fun, very useful.

[Sorinth]

I've always thought Druid would've been a great option. Short rest casting synergies well with Wildshape and the fluff of the magic makes better sense. Instead of mutually agreed upon "pact" it's more a case of a nature spirit adopting the druid almost regardless of whether they wanted it or not. For example a Spore Druid has a literal symbiotic fungus attached to their brain granting them powers, a river spirit saves a person from drowning and infuses them with their essence granting them powers of a Land (Coastal) druid. And of course there can still be more controlled stuff, such as a secret Druid ritual that summons an Animal spirit if the initiate defeats the spirit in a dream/mental combat they can bind the spirit granting them a powerful Wildshape ability so they are now a Moon Druid.

It always felt a bit weird that Druids would prepare their spells know basically like a Cleric, having a set of spell knowns and invocations just fits the whole nature spirit connection better.

[Ettina]

a Spore Druid has a literal symbiotic fungus attached to their brain granting them powers

Horrifying. I like it!

[nathanv]

I'm not sure that the warlock is arcane vs. divine-- they have access to some cleric spells, and some subclasses offer further cleric spells.

IMO, there is *definitely* room for a more expanded warlock spell list.

If you're interested in more cleric spells for a warlock, you can think about just editing the spell list rather than home-brewing everything from scratch. The main risk is of making Tome an unappealing choice if you add too many cantrips without taking any away.

Not sure if there are some other features that you want for a divine warlock, like channel divinity. Invocations are a good way to handle additional interesting powers, and don't seem too hard to balance; they're roughly feat-strength. If homebrewing, you can limit them however you'd like, including limiting by patron type or even specific patron.

If you're just talking about should WoTC do that next time they faff about, well, they kind of already did with the Celestial, but my feeling is that no, they shouldn't have done that. There was a distinct flavor to warlocks that has been consistently eroded with expansion subclasses. The existing warlock spell list is totally inappropriate for some kind of celestial-chosen savior-type, as are many of the invocations, while almost all of the features are perfect for fiend, good for fey, and okay for GOO.

There's room for more witchy nature stuff for sure. I think that all of those "cast with a slot" invocations and even some of the free casts would be better represented by adding a small set of known spells, from any list, that don't count against it.

[LudicSavant]

Is there room for a divine caster, in the vein of the warlock?

I'm thinking spellcasting similar to Pact Magic, if not exactly the same. Not Pacts, per se, but something similar of a divine nature. With a similar feature to take the place of invocations.

If this has already been handled by a third-party, let me know.

5e doesn't distinguish much between power sources -- arcane, divine, psionic, it's all just spells.

Is there some reason that the Celestial Warlock won't work for your purposes?

[Millstone85]

I'm not sure that the warlock is arcane vs. divine-- they have access to some cleric spells, and some subclasses offer further cleric spells.I just gave a look at the class spell lists, and I couldn't find any spell shared between the warlock and the cleric that the wizard does not also have.

Even if I did, I don't think that would tell much about the nature of the warlock. The same spell can be arcane or divine depending on the caster.

And it is clearly stated that
The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding---learned or intuitive---of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect.a warlock is an arcane spellcaster.

However, most tables will stop at the fact that, typically, a cleric and a warlock both had to entertain a powerful being at some point, whereas becoming a bard, a sorcerer or a wizard involved no such relationship. They will thus conclude that a warlock has more in common with a cleric than with a wizard.

At the table where I played a warlock, I emphasized how my character wasn't just plugged on an otherworldly entity, as a cleric would be, but was durably changed by this contact. She was even slowly turning into an aberration. But that did nothing. It was "your god" this and "your god" that.

[nathanv]

Oh pardon me. I may have been looking at a bad list with some errors. Although there is the fiend with command on the extended list, for example. So there's precedent for cross-list spells.

But if it straight out says warlocks are arcane not divine, then I guess they're arcane not divine. Is there some game significance to whether a spell is cast as divine or arcane magic?

I think if it was all "your god" this, I'd just hear that in the patron's voice, who very well may consider themselves to be my god :) Or possibly, arguing with the angry villagers: "I don't technically worship the devil. It's more like a business arrangement. I'm sure you can understand the distinction?"

Edit: Oh, magic stone.

[thorr-kan]

What are you looking for that the Celestial patron (https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/warlock#TheCelestial), Warlock, in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, won't do for you? :smallconfused:
I am currently playing one and she's great fun, very useful.
I'm playing one, too. He's awesome.

But this is a different idea.

[TheMango55]

Yeah I think there is room for another divine caster. I'd like to see a divine caster use intelligence for once.

Perhaps it's a religious scholar who through study can tap into divine magic without relying on divine sources.

Also I'd like to see a divine melee cantrip. Maybe not as damaging as the arcane melee cantrips but with some kind of bonus.

Perhaps Guiding Strike, make a melee weapon attack and add 1d4 radiant damage, increasing by 1d4 at 5th, 11th, and 17th level. If the attack hits the next attack on the target has advantage.

[Pex]

To borrow from Pathfinder the name of this hypothetical class could be Oracle or Shaman.

You can certainly reflavor text the warlock abilities. There doesn't have to be a new class. Fiend Warlock Patron can be a Phoenix. Call your Celestial Warlock a Disciple of Ilmater. Devil's Sight becomes Pierce The Darkness. Tomb of Levistus becomes Icicle Of Mount Celestia. Reflavoring can only go so far. You can say you use Pierce The Darkness all you want when fighting Drow, but you'll always know the game calls it Devil's Sight and will lose some immersion. I can understand the need of something official where you don't have to reflavor, but I highly doubt 5E will make a 12th class if their troubles with psionics is a guide let alone to be so close to a warlock in nature. At best they can make a new Patron to fit the theme yet distinct enough from Celestial, but it's so easy to say play a Divine Soul Sorcerer or multiclass with one to be worth a lot of effort to make.

[Theodoxus]

At one point in my homebrew setting, I borrowed basically all the powers from 4E and incorporated them into 5E classes, just to give a bit more oomph to player options.

For Clerics, I turned them into Prayers, which worked basically like Invocations for Warlocks. It wouldn't be difficult to build on that premise, granting this Cleric/Warlock hybrid short rest casting, Prayers and something akin to Celestial/Fiend patrons. Heck, there's no real reason you couldn't keep the Blade/Chain/Tome pacts straight from Warlock; maybe flavor them a little differently (Blade might be Blunt instead, and this hybrid might take on the 2E forbiddance of using non-bludgeoning weapons). Chain might support only the 'totem animal' of each god (which would require each god to have said totem animal). Tome probably doesn't need any alteration.

I'm not sure what to call it, though Inquisitor, Oracle, or Priest all pretty much fit the concept.

[Kane0]

Theres precedent for calling it Archivist too

[Ettina]

But if it straight out says warlocks are arcane not divine, then I guess they're arcane not divine. Is there some game significance to whether a spell is cast as divine or arcane magic?

I don't think it matters in 5e, but it did in earlier editions. In 2e, spelljammer voyages affected divine and arcane casters differently, and in 3.5e a lot of prestige classes referred to levels in an arcane or divine spellcasting class, both in terms of how to enter the class and what spell progression the class offered.

[thorr-kan]

I don't think it matters in 5e, but it did in earlier editions. In 2e, spelljammer voyages affected divine and arcane casters differently, and in 3.5e a lot of prestige classes referred to levels in an arcane or divine spellcasting class, both in terms of how to enter the class and what spell progression the class offered.
It may not make a mechanical difference, but it may make a metaphysical difference in the game. And that difference can be *everything.*

So, I'm assuming this hasn't ever been covered by a third-party to anyone's knowledge?

[Burley]

So, I guess my question: At 8th level, what divine spells would you want to know 3 of and be able to cast twice at max level? What would this Divine Caster's Eldritch Blast replacement be?

Warlock works best as a blaster, in my opinion, because it does two spells really well each fight. I guess a Divine version could do two big buffs each fight, and then be usefull some other way for the rest of combat? Do you use one of your few spells known for Cure Wounds?

A warlock's skeleton is cantrips, and I don't think Sacred Flame and Guidance are good enough to build a Divine Warlock.

[KorvinStarmast]

It may not make a mechanical difference, but it may make a metaphysical difference in the game. And that difference can be *everything.*

So, I'm assuming this hasn't ever been covered by a third-party to anyone's knowledge? If you don't mind multiclassing, you can do a Celestial warlock/Divine Soul sorcerer. I've got a friend doing one of those, it's pretty good stuff and his RP is heavy into relationship with patron.

[thorr-kan]

If you don't mind multiclassing, you can do a Celestial warlock/Divine Soul sorcerer. I've got a friend doing one of those, it's pretty good stuff and his RP is heavy into relationship with patron.
As above, so am I. And he's awesome.

But it's not the same thing. Quite. I know 5E is big on "refluff the lore" but the design space I've thinking about here is not a "deity"lock with all the same effects. Similar, but not the same.

I guess by the lack of third-party development, I'm in the minority seeing the possibility.

Thanks for the input, everyone!

[Chronos]

The bit that Millstone85 quoted is literally the only mention in any of the core rulebooks about magic being arcane or divine, it's in a sidebar, it applies only in Faerun, and it was written before the Celestial Warlock was published. That's hardly definitive.

[Kane0]

As above, so am I. And he's awesome.

But it's not the same thing. Quite. I know 5E is big on "refluff the lore" but the design space I've thinking about here is not a "deity"lock with all the same effects. Similar, but not the same.

I guess by the lack of third-party development, I'm in the minority seeing the possibility.

Thanks for the input, everyone!

Drop by the homebrew forums and we can help you put something together.

[nathanv]

It may not make a mechanical difference, but it may make a metaphysical difference in the game. And that difference can be *everything.*

If there's no mechanical difference, and the metaphysics are what you care about, the homebrew is as simple as can be: warlocks can now choose to be divine or arcane. You know that it doesn't change balance in the slightest, so you know that the homebrew is exactly as balanced as base DnD rules. There is no reason to shrink from that homebrew.

However, if there's no physical difference in-game (a bit broader than no mechanical difference), then consider that metaphysics that can't be decided via evidence are unknowable. If it can't be decided by evidence, then nobody knows whether or not any particular class is divine or arcane. You can have multiple factions with strong feelings about it, arguing about angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin level details-- and this is easily imaginable, IRL people did/do that exact thing-- but if there's no way to decide who's right, then there might as well be no right answer.

Consider that in your DnD world, the simulation hypothesis (roughly, we're all just simulated entities from a meta-reality with more energy, less entropy, with good AI) can be true, and nobody ever need even consider it to be true, for it to be true. Or-- everybody can consider it true, without it being true. That goes for anything unfalsifiable.

[Millstone85]

The bit that Millstone85 quoted is literally the only mention in any of the core rulebooks about magic being arcane or divine, it's in a sidebar, it applies only in Faerun, and it was written before the Celestial Warlock was published. That's hardly definitive.You are right that it is just the one sidebar.

A couple things, though:

While the sidebar notes that referring to the magical interface as the Weave, and associating it with the goddess Mystra, is a Faerûnian thing, it is otherwise about "the worlds within the D&D multiverse".
It makes as much sense for a celelock to be an arcane spellcaster as it does for a fiendlock, since neither patron is a deity.

[Ashe]

Thread question: 5e is missing content to cover so many common fantasy character concepts that you can basically say yes to anything and be right.


At the table where I played a warlock, I emphasized how my character wasn't just plugged on an otherworldly entity, as a cleric would be, but was durably changed by this contact. She was even slowly turning into an aberration. But that did nothing. It was "your god" this and "your god" that.

So the DM just like... ignored your character concept?

[Millstone85]

So the DM just like... ignored your character concept?No, the other players did.

In particular, I was annoyed to hear the cleric refer to my patron as a god. Like, dude, you are the last person who should bestow that title so freely.