LordShade
2021-06-06, 07:28 PM
I'm working on an update to my Sidekick Optimization guide, and wanted to get some RAW/RAI interpretations from the forum on the interaction between Multiattack and certain feats. All of the following is with the obvious understanding that any sidekick added to the game is at the DM's discretion, and the DM can change any rule they want to provide the sidekick with whatever abilities they want.
One issue with optimizing Multiattack is that it is not the same as the Attack action. A bunch of common power feats, like CBE, PAM and Shield Master, all specify that their bonus action effects only work "when you take the Attack action on your turn" as opposed to "when you make a weapon attack." Another issue is that the option to replace an attack with a grapple or shove also requires you to take the Attack action (https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-grapplers-manual-2-0-grappling-in-5th-edition.468737/#rules). A creature with Multiattack (3) can't use one of those attacks to do a grapple or a shove. However, I think Tavern Brawler+Grappler or the Poisoner feat can provide a good option for Multiattack users to utilize their bonus actions in conjunction, and would like to hear the opinions of this forum on whether the below works.
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1. Let's consider the example of a Gorzil's Gang Troglodyte, a statblock with a Multiattack 3 routine of Longsword/Longsword/Bite:
- The rules for unarmed strikes state that "Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike"
- Tavern brawler says "When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target"
- Grappler says "You have advantage on Attack Rolls against a creature you are Grappling"
I think a Gorzil's Gang Trog should be able to, at the cost of 1.5 feats:
Multiattack 3 --> Longsword attack replaced by unarmed strike --> proc bonus action Tavern Brawler grapple --> if successful, longsword strike at advantage --> Bite at advantage
Compared to a normal fighter 11 (ignoring the weird sequencing rulings from Sage Advice on Twitter):
Bonus action shield bash from Shield master --> longsword at advantage --> longsword at advantage --> longsword at advantage
Does the above work, RAW or RAI, in your view?
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2. Poisoner. This is more about figuring out if there is a valid optimization use case for Poisoner, in the case of sidekicks. This post (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/jwigli/poisoner_tcoe_and_by_extension_all_poisons_are/) lays out some of the deficiencies of Poisoner in comparison to something like CBE, although I admit I don't understand all of the OP's arguments.
Poisoner lets you
- "apply poison to a weapon or piece of ammunition as a bonus action"
- create a potent poison, that "once applied to a weapon or piece of ammunition" does 2d8 poison damage on a failed save
The rules for basic poison let you
- "You can use the poison in this vial to coat one slashing or piercing weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition. Applying the poison takes an action"
The question here is, does Poisoner's bonus action poison application let you coat 3 pieces of ammunition per bonus action, or only one? Does it matter if the Poisoner character uses the feat's Potent Poison or Basic Poison? I originally assumed that a Poisoner would be able to coat 3x crossbow bolts, but on rereading the rules I'm not so sure--the wording for the feat now implies to me that it's only 1 piece of ammunition per bonus action, regardless of the type of poison being used.
If Poisoner does indeed let you coat 3 pieces of ammo per bonus action, it should be a pretty viable damage boost on any creature that has Multiattack 2/3 with a missile weapon. Dolgrims--who have Multiattack 3 Hand Crossbow--would be ideal users, as they can't utilize CBE with their Multiattack anyway.
One issue with optimizing Multiattack is that it is not the same as the Attack action. A bunch of common power feats, like CBE, PAM and Shield Master, all specify that their bonus action effects only work "when you take the Attack action on your turn" as opposed to "when you make a weapon attack." Another issue is that the option to replace an attack with a grapple or shove also requires you to take the Attack action (https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-grapplers-manual-2-0-grappling-in-5th-edition.468737/#rules). A creature with Multiattack (3) can't use one of those attacks to do a grapple or a shove. However, I think Tavern Brawler+Grappler or the Poisoner feat can provide a good option for Multiattack users to utilize their bonus actions in conjunction, and would like to hear the opinions of this forum on whether the below works.
---
1. Let's consider the example of a Gorzil's Gang Troglodyte, a statblock with a Multiattack 3 routine of Longsword/Longsword/Bite:
- The rules for unarmed strikes state that "Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike"
- Tavern brawler says "When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target"
- Grappler says "You have advantage on Attack Rolls against a creature you are Grappling"
I think a Gorzil's Gang Trog should be able to, at the cost of 1.5 feats:
Multiattack 3 --> Longsword attack replaced by unarmed strike --> proc bonus action Tavern Brawler grapple --> if successful, longsword strike at advantage --> Bite at advantage
Compared to a normal fighter 11 (ignoring the weird sequencing rulings from Sage Advice on Twitter):
Bonus action shield bash from Shield master --> longsword at advantage --> longsword at advantage --> longsword at advantage
Does the above work, RAW or RAI, in your view?
---
2. Poisoner. This is more about figuring out if there is a valid optimization use case for Poisoner, in the case of sidekicks. This post (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/jwigli/poisoner_tcoe_and_by_extension_all_poisons_are/) lays out some of the deficiencies of Poisoner in comparison to something like CBE, although I admit I don't understand all of the OP's arguments.
Poisoner lets you
- "apply poison to a weapon or piece of ammunition as a bonus action"
- create a potent poison, that "once applied to a weapon or piece of ammunition" does 2d8 poison damage on a failed save
The rules for basic poison let you
- "You can use the poison in this vial to coat one slashing or piercing weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition. Applying the poison takes an action"
The question here is, does Poisoner's bonus action poison application let you coat 3 pieces of ammunition per bonus action, or only one? Does it matter if the Poisoner character uses the feat's Potent Poison or Basic Poison? I originally assumed that a Poisoner would be able to coat 3x crossbow bolts, but on rereading the rules I'm not so sure--the wording for the feat now implies to me that it's only 1 piece of ammunition per bonus action, regardless of the type of poison being used.
If Poisoner does indeed let you coat 3 pieces of ammo per bonus action, it should be a pretty viable damage boost on any creature that has Multiattack 2/3 with a missile weapon. Dolgrims--who have Multiattack 3 Hand Crossbow--would be ideal users, as they can't utilize CBE with their Multiattack anyway.