Monster Mash: Monstrous Adventurer Competition [Archive]

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GreatWyrmGold

2021-06-06, 10:13 PM

Monster Mash
This competition is for monstrous adventurers, in part to experiment with the possibilities they offer and in part to make use of the revised level adjustments which Inevitability and Debatra have spent five years assigning.
Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates.
“Monstrous race” is a somewhat vague category, by necessity. No simple set of rules can exclude every single PC race without also excluding some genuine monsters. Entries which flout this rule with borderline-monstrous races risk a penalty to their Monstrosity score.

For the purpose of this competition, all races use the modified level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825). Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not yet rated may not be used.
Some races' level adjustments include asterisks. These monsters have traits which render them unsuitable for PC use, such as a wight’s spawn creation, a dryad’s tree dependency, or a genie’s wishes; check the linked posts in the archive. For the purpose of this contest, those races do not possess those traits. In cases where it's unclear which traits are removed, please contact the chair for clarification.

Contestants
You will need to present a full build for your entry, from its first level to level 20. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played in a real game.
Traditionally participants in similar competitions give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Depending on the monstrous race chosen, your character may be unavailable at lower levels; in that case, instead give snapshots at various levels where it is playable. These snapshots should be roughly evenly distributed among what levels it is available at.

Rules
(If you can think of a more flavorful name for this section, I'm all ears.)
30 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition.

Bans:

Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.
The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
The Illithid Savant and Beholder Mage prestige classes are specifically banned due to their extreme potential for abuse.

Judging
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Monstrosity.
Scores of zero may be applied in cases of exceptional misconduct (plagiarism earns a 0 in Originality, failure to meet prerequisites earns a 0 in Elegance, non-monstrous races earn a 0 in Monstrosity, etc); otherwise, all entries should receive at least one full point in each category.
Originality: Is it unexpected or novel?
Power: Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Elegance: Is it mechanically straighforward or “pretty”?
Monstrosity: Is the monstrous character’s race used?

Elegance and Monstrosity demand further elaboration.
Elegance measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.
A legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity.

Presentation
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

NAME OF ENTRY

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Round Theme: Back to Basics

Since this is the first contest of its kind (and circumstances prevented me from brainstorming a better theme), I'm going to pick a pretty simple theme.

These monstrous adventurers are, at the end of the day, still adventurers, and they still need the same basic skills as any adventuring party. They need a cleric in the back to keep the fighter hale and hearty, a wizard in the middle where they can shed some light, and to never let the darn rogue out of sight.

The first class level for each submission, aside from racial Hit Dice, must be either the Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, or Wizard class. All variants, alternative class features, etc from permitted sources are permitted.
Further class levels may be any class, including prestige classes.
At the judge's discretion, points for Elegance may be deducted if the chosen class seems unused in the build (e.g. taking one level of fighter before multiclassing into druid for the rest of the build).

Remember: If your submission does not use features of its monstrous race alongside its class features, your score may be penalized.

Deadlines

Contestants will have until 23:59 GMT Tuesday July 6th 14:30 July 7th I guess to create their builds and PM them to the chair. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 GMT TuesdayWednesday July 13th 14th to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. Deadlines are subject to extension as/if required.

Submission
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
PM: GreatWyrmGold
Subject: Monster Mash, Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mailbox.

More questions? Either ask in the thread or PM me with Monster Mash Questions in the header. Please use PMs for any questions relating to a specific build to avoid violating rules against speculation.

Houserules/Clarifications
D&D 3.5 is far from a perfect system, and inflated level adjustments are far from the only example of this. Many rules are ambiguous, absent, or just badly-written. I make no claim to fixing the system, but feel some “house rules” are in order:

All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.
Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.
Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.
Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
Possessing innate spellcasting from your race is treated as a spellcasting class for the purposes of prestige classes which provide new spells per day, an increase in caster level, and spells known (if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Acknowledgments
Much of the language in these rules was inspired or directly copied from the rules for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground and/or Villainous Competition, both of which are inspirations for this contest. In addition, this contest would not be possible without the hard work of Inevitability and Debatra, re-assessing entire books’ worth of monsters and templates.

Thurbane

2021-06-06, 10:27 PM

Spare time is so precious at the moment, but I really hope to get an entry in!

Morphic tide

2021-06-06, 10:43 PM

To be clear, is the chair the OP? I'm going to be waiting for a while anyways to see how the Libre Mortis LAs finish shaking out, because I really want to do something stupid with the Evil Paladin variants.

InvisibleBison

2021-06-06, 11:14 PM

I'm definitely going to submit an entry, assuming I can think of one.

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-06-07, 12:45 AM

Okay, time to put my money where my mouth is, I guess, and actually create some builds for these monstrosities I've been talking up. Got one idea right out the gate, so that's promising.

pabelfly

2021-06-07, 01:34 AM

This seems like a pretty fun competition. I'll have a go at making a playable monster.

ciopo

2021-06-07, 03:33 AM

Remuko

2021-06-07, 09:11 AM

Beni-Kujaku

2021-06-07, 09:15 AM

Oooooh, I like this!

I assume the standard "la - means it can't be choosed as a player race" , I have no idea if some revised ones gave LA to creatures that previously were "LA -", I've only occasionally taken a look at those megathreads (much thanks to their efforts)

Do we use the standard ECL = RHD+LA+class levels?

I think I'm going to make a something for this, the godzilla VC is giving me headaches

I would put "type must be other than humanoid" as the baseline for "monstrous", with adeguate caveats.

it is unclear to me how to parse "Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates." . Obviously this means that LA0 standard sapient races are out, but what about the various LA 0 humanoid races that aren't the classic ones? Are creatures that are traditionally treated as monsters, monsters? Goblins are probably the ur-example, to have a reference.

I already have a couple ideas :3

Also, I'm curious about the reasoning behind "30point buy"

The "type must be other than humanoid" doesn't really work, since we have some weird humanoids in the monster manuals (gnoll, locathah, shinomen nagas) that would definitely count as monstrous. About the goblin, just know that the more exotic the race the merrier. That's why there are Monstrosity points. A simple goblin will probably rank pretty low there, but a skeleton woodling goblin with a fiendish symbiont definitely won't.

One of the primary goals of the LA threads was to give LAs to "LA: - " creatures, so none of them still has a la:-. If there really is an ability absolutely not suited for a PC, that's when we use the asterisk and just remove the ability (like the Split ability of Oozes, for example). As of now, we have reviewed only the Monster Manuals I and III, the Tome of Battle, Heroes of Horror, the Fiend Folio, the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and most of the Libris Mortis. You can find the list of all creatures covered and the corresponding LAs here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825). I guess you could build on another creature, but you will most likely be crippled by it, since official LA are generally much higher than the ones from the LA assignment threads.

The ECL is indeed "number of RHD+Level Adjustment+Class Levels".

30-point buy is probably my fault, I proposed it since I thought that it was the standard for other such competitions, but it was a misreading on my part, and nobody objected. GreatWyrmGold, if you want to come back to 32-points buy, which after checking is the standard for all optimization threads, I don't know where I took that information. Or you could keep it, since our scores will be a bit higher here than anywhere else, this might make the field a bit more equal, at the risk of confusing newcomers.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-06-07, 09:27 AM

To be clear, is the chair the OP?
Yup! I just wanted to use the fancy formal term for the discount-legalese OP. Also, if this contest keeps going on and I hand someone else the seat, it reduces the chance that people accidentally send their builds to me. :tongue:

I assume the standard "la - means it can't be choosed as a player race" , I have no idea if some revised ones gave LA to creatures that previously were "LA -", I've only occasionally taken a look at those megathreads (much thanks to their efforts)
The LA-reassignment threads do not believe in LA —. Obviously, there are some races that you probably shouldn't choose—shriekers don't do much, for instance—but you can pick anything that's been rated.

Do we use the standard ECL = RHD+LA+class levels?
Yup.

I would put "type must be other than humanoid" as the baseline for "monstrous", with adeguate caveats.
The problem is, there are plenty of non-humanoid base races in the splatbooks. The Manual of the Planes is probably the worst offender, but they're everywhere—there's a fey race in Magic of Incarnum, for instance. Also, not all interesting but uncommon templates for humanoids modify type.

But most importantly, I personally think that strict definitions of what is or isn't a monster are undesirable. Monstrosity, like life itself, is difficult to define; you know it when you see it. There will always be some builds that feel monstrous that are left out, and some non-monstrous builds that are allowed.

Also, I'm curious about the reasoning behind "30point buy"
I was told 30 was standard for this kind of contest, so I changed it from 32 to 30.

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-06-07, 09:52 AM

Rules
(If you can think of a more flavorful name for this section, I'm all ears.)

Perhaps Formulae?

ciopo

2021-06-07, 09:56 AM

I like Monster Mash

the 30 point buy stumped me because all other competitions seems to use the 32 point buy, except VC that uses the elite array

I shall not be hasty!

Troacctid

2021-06-07, 01:41 PM

If anything, 27 points might be even better! Monsters usually have more than enough ability bonuses to offset lower point buys.

Remuko

2021-06-07, 08:07 PM

I like Monster Mash

the 30 point buy stumped me because all other competitions seems to use the 32 point buy, except VC that uses the elite array

I shall not be hasty!

yeah someone in the LA assignment thread told him 30 was the norm not 32 and so he changed it. if what youre saying is true, idk why they said that.

ciopo

2021-06-08, 06:09 PM

Question : do we get an ability score increase from racial hit dies?

Troacctid

2021-06-08, 06:23 PM

Question : do we get an ability score increase from racial hit dies?
The RAW is no, IIRC. It's considered to be rolled into racial ability mods.

Thurbane

2021-06-08, 06:48 PM

The RAW is no, IIRC. It's considered to be rolled into racial ability mods.

This is my understanding as well.

Say you had a monster with 5RHD, it wouldn't get an ability increase from it's 4th HD; but, say it took 3 class levels - it would get one for it's 8th HD (5RHD + 3 class levels).

ciopo

2021-06-09, 08:28 AM

Thanks for clearing that up.

I got a philosophical question : this competition is "Monstrous Adventurer Competition"

What I(we?) am(are) drawn to for this competition is of course doing monster shenanigans.

Now, being a monster is clear enough if nebolous and best not rigidly defined, I hope we are clear on that.

But, how important is the "adventurer" part of that? Let's say I pick a monster, slap some class levels on it to bring him to ECL 20 and call it a day.

If the chosen monster is so horrible that there is no way it'd ever be allowed in the sapient society at large, that even in Eberron it would be attacked on sight, I honestly don't see how that could possibly become an "adventurer". Because I don't define "adventurer" as "having class levels".

So, thoughts on the matter?

Brackenlord

2021-06-09, 09:01 AM

-snip-

In that case you take your monstrous adventurer to the nearby inclusive tavern, where he can party with others monstrous adventurers as will be seen in this thread.

Perhaps the whole hook of their adventures will be about changing the world's perception of Heteromorph creatures!

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-06-09, 11:57 AM

If the chosen monster is so horrible that there is no way it'd ever be allowed in the sapient society at large, that even in Eberron it would be attacked on sight, I honestly don't see how that could possibly become an "adventurer". Because I don't define "adventurer" as "having class levels".

So, thoughts on the matter?

For what it's worth, I still consider the PCs in Evil campaigns to be "adventurers"; just because you're working for the evil overlord (or even just yourself) doesn't mean you're not going on adventures. So there's always that.

ciopo

2021-06-09, 01:47 PM

I'm trying to calibrate expectation :), Like, if a build is an adventurer, be it monstrous or not, "bare minimum" is the capability for communication with other party members, and there is the expectation that it will be played in a party with other characters.

Meanwhile, if I'm making a monster for the PC party to encounter and slay, that monster will almost surely operate alone, and it's likely the majority of the CR will come from RHD/templates/adjustments, and only have a little handful of class levels, or even none at all.

So, in the context of this contest, are we making monstrous adventurers or are we making monsters that happens to have class levels?

Because one of the judging metric that's monstruosity, and that gives me more of a vibe like the Villainous competition rather than Iron Chef

But to quote the chair, "These monstrous adventurers are, at the end of the day, still adventurers" , which to me implies heavily that yes, they need to be identifiable as adventurers, and a (fictional) cosmic horror tha functionally can't ever work in a party might get 6 out of 5 on monstruosity, but at the end of the day it fails hard at being an adventurer.

"An adventurer" is just as nebolous as "a monster", but to me at the very least it means that a player will play it and it will go out and about with the monstrous adventurer of the other party members. Sure can be evil no problem with that, but we're making monstrous adventurers, not monsters

I hope I made sense, I tend to ramble when I'm unsure about how to express myself

GreatWyrmGold

2021-06-09, 04:13 PM

I like Monster Mash

the 30 point buy stumped me because all other competitions seems to use the 32 point buy, except VC that uses the elite array
What Remuko said. I've had enough people say the exact opposite that I'm going to make it 32-point buy if there's a second one of these.

Question : do we get an ability score increase from racial hit dies?
My understanding is that you don't get ability score increases from the RHD you start with, but if you advance RHD for some reason you do.

I got a philosophical question : this competition is "Monstrous Adventurer Competition"

What I(we?) am(are) drawn to for this competition is of course doing monster shenanigans.

Now, being a monster is clear enough if nebolous and best not rigidly defined, I hope we are clear on that.

But, how important is the "adventurer" part of that? Let's say I pick a monster, slap some class levels on it to bring him to ECL 20 and call it a day.

If the chosen monster is so horrible that there is no way it'd ever be allowed in the sapient society at large, that even in Eberron it would be attacked on sight, I honestly don't see how that could possibly become an "adventurer". Because I don't define "adventurer" as "having class levels".

So, thoughts on the matter?
My thoughts as chair: Not all adventurers get jobs at the local tavern. An ettercap beguiler wouldn't be allowed in most towns, but she might be given missions by various underdark powers trying to covertly influence the surface world. A barbazu barbarian would obey no mortal, but the archdevils are another matter. A gibbering mouther cleric probably wouldn't have quests as we understand them, but would still follow orders from its dark god.

I'm trying to calibrate expectation :), Like, if a build is an adventurer, be it monstrous or not, "bare minimum" is the capability for communication with other party members, and there is the expectation that it will be played in a party with other characters.

...

But to quote the chair, "These monstrous adventurers are, at the end of the day, still adventurers" , which to me implies heavily that yes, they need to be identifiable as adventurers, and a (fictional) cosmic horror tha functionally can't ever work in a party might get 6 out of 5 on monstruosity, but at the end of the day it fails hard at being an adventurer.

"An adventurer" is just as nebolous as "a monster", but to me at the very least it means that a player will play it and it will go out and about with the monstrous adventurer of the other party members. Sure can be evil no problem with that, but we're making monstrous adventurers, not monsters
Further thoughts as chair: If you think your build would have trouble functioning as an adventurer for one reason or another, I would advise addressing these in some way. For instance: The gibbering mouther cleric would have trouble communicating with other characters, but it can prepare lesser telepathic bond if it needs to communicate with others. Or if that's not an option, have it learn Drow Sign Language or put points in Craft (painting) to communicate visually or say it needs a telepathy item. I don't think there's any monster species that can't overcome its issues with enough thought (and certain asterisk abilities removed).
Judges will probably want to take points off somewhere if the solution is too outlandish or unreliable, but I'm not sure where they'd take it off.

I should probably address this properly in the next version of the rules, if there is a next time.

QuadraticGish

2021-06-10, 01:24 AM

I've got an idea for a [redacted]. A project that I'll dub the [redacted]. I think it'll be fun if it pans out. Otherwise, I can drag a lot of the concepts to back up plan brass. EDIT: Is LA-buy off in play?

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-06-10, 01:58 AM

I've got an idea for [redacted]. I think it'll be fun if it pans out. Otherwise, I can drag a lot of the concepts to back up plan brass. EDIT: Is LA-buy off in play?

No LA Buyoff (otherwise, there would be no reason not to use LA +3 or less creatures for the comp., since it'd be bought off by level 20). Much as I love the rule in actual play, it creates an uneven playing field for these competitions.

Also, be careful of revealing specific parts of your build in the comments. It makes it obvious who the chef (or "mad scientist" for this comp?) was, which could lead to unconscious bias in the judges, but more importantly it might discourage other competitors from trying something similar.

(There was some talk a year or two back about whether the restriction on speculation was doing more harm than good, by stifling the discussion during the build time, but I don't think it ended up going anywhere. The current rule remains "no discussion/speculation on specific build elements" for all the competitions I'm aware of.)

QuadraticGish

2021-06-10, 08:30 AM

Fixed and thanks for telling me.

Remuko

2021-06-10, 10:42 AM

Fixed and thanks for telling me.

in addition to what the other person said, the LA Assignment Threads all function under the "No LA buyoff" assumption, so if this is using the LA Assignment Threads as its basis it should not use buyoff as well, for that reason too.

QuadraticGish

2021-06-10, 07:21 PM

How do I go about asking questions related to mechanics?

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-06-10, 07:44 PM

How do I go about asking questions related to mechanics?

Non build-specific ones are fine to go here (LA Buyoff, how RHD interact with the Epic progression, what's the policy on WBL, that kind of thing). For more build specific ones (how do two class features interact, best way to enter a PrC, interpreting a specific feat, that kind of thing), best to have a layer or two of separation. You could start another thread about the question on this forum, ask it on RPG Stack Exchange, or private message the chair (the OP) if it's something about the rules for this competition or how your build interacts with them..

zlefin

2021-06-10, 08:35 PM

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-06-10, 11:00 PM

Seeking some rules clarification;

What are the rules on itemization? Do we just not include items in the build? Do we just get appropriate WBL items for each level? Is there a scoring penalty for specifying certain items to get by certain points? (the last one in particular is a concern of mine, as it's one of the reasons I don't take part in some of the similar competitions)

Typically, judges frown on a build that will suck if it doesn't have the specific items it needs. If your build is shut down because the DM never gives you the Thundering Britches of Smashy McGee, you can expect a penalty in the Power section.

On the other hand, recommending items (even weird ones) that are helpful but not a necessity is usually fine; that's just advice on playing the character to the best of its ability. I even saw a +0.25 bonus for a good item recommendation once.

And there's usually a lot more leeway given for items that your character can create themselves. You might still get a deduction for being wholly dependent on a specific item, though (being able to craft it yourself won't help you if the DM nerfs it, for instance).

But as always, every judge is different. These are my thoughts, what are other peoples'?

ciopo

2021-06-11, 01:25 AM

Thurbane

2021-06-11, 01:40 AM

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-06-11, 02:19 AM

I guess in a monstrous PC comp, some reature will rely on items to meet certain functions.

Your PC might need an item to speak, so it can, in turn use spells with a verbal component.

Traditionally, as PoeticallyPsyco says, comp judges tend to frown on over-reliance on items for a build, but for this one, they might (if you're lucky), be more understanding of items you need to function as an adventurer.

That's a good point. There's a significant difference between "I need this item so I can talk to the party/open doors/actually see", and "I need this item to exploit a wombo combo that can demolish my enemies"; a DM that would frown on the second would probably be fine with the first.

QuadraticGish

2021-06-11, 03:11 PM

Doing something like this really means you run into rules you never knew about. I had no idea that armor for tiny creatures only provides one-half their normal armor bonus.

zlefin

2021-06-11, 05:09 PM

Personally, in general for all the competitions, it upsets me a little bit whenever I tinker a build and I make it with the assumption that no ability boosting item is available. I don't mean having a +6 item and also +5 tomes for the primary/secondary stat of that build (personally I have NEVER seen even +1 tomes, so tomes might as well not exist), but a +2 by level 8-10 and +4 by levels 16-20 are just, expected. But for fear of a penalty I make naked characters.

It bothers me because we all know they won't be naked, and it feels like I'm misrepresenting the character, "here is the spell table, no INT/WIS/CHA item is assumed" like an extra slot for the two highest level isn't a MAJOR difference, or "here is my full attack routine" and it being 2 lower on the to hit and 1-3 lower on the damage isn't being plain wrong with the math! It implants this silly thought : "I should make all characters with VoP, because we aren't allowed ANY item anyway" IE if for the purpose of the competition we are to assume WBL is 0 at all times, then why are we getting a power penalty for taking VoP? :) "you lose power because you lose the versatily and utility of items" to which I put my hands to my hair and shout "but we're penalized for item dependancy, and EVERYBODY depends on their items, except druids!!"

It's not representative, I would be much more in favor of listing what you have with your WBL at at least level 20, even make it "mandatory, penalty if it's missing" like the list of source, because what items you get is as much a build decision as selecting feats or preparing spells and so on.

this is not a thought specific to this competition

Certainly from the perspective of a DM looking to use the created being in a real game (like with the villianous competition, and perhasp some others, I'm not familiar with all the competitions), having the stats for a character not be the real stats is a bit of a nuisance. It means the DM can't just one as en encounter or a villian; they need to sit down, decide on items, and recalculate everything to account for whatever items they pick.

Then again, it does mean the DM is free to adjust itemization without going through the difficulty of reversing the effects of a set of items, recalculating the base values, and then figuring out what they are with different items.

From a more general perspective; the notion that "The char has appropriate WBL", but you aren't allowed to account for it is kind of odd. In particular, adventurers do routinely have gear to help cover their weaknesses; and some adventurers can even craft their own gear. Also the big 6 items and such are so ubiquitous that most adventurers find some version of that at some point. It might be a bit late, but they're usually at least somewhat obtainable.
And ofc, when you build your own PC, you're often allowed to simply have appropriate WBL worth of gear. But for these PCs you aren't allowed to.

It's also about predictability; I like predictability in general. And "a judge may ding you, but it's impossible to know beforehand so it's basically taking a random chance for every item and will not be consistent from judge to judge or contest to contest due to the varying judges" is rather unpleasant. It's basically saying your score will be randomly adjusted by factors largely outside your control.

At any rate, ye choose as ye choose, and I just want to be clear on what the rules are for this one.

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-06-11, 05:46 PM

From a more general perspective; the notion that "The char has appropriate WBL", but you aren't allowed to account for it is kind of odd. In particular, adventurers do routinely have gear to help cover their weaknesses; and some adventurers can even craft their own gear. Also the big 6 items and such are so ubiquitous that most adventurers find some version of that at some point. It might be a bit late, but they're usually at least somewhat obtainable.
And ofc, when you build your own PC, you're often allowed to simply have appropriate WBL worth of gear. But for these PCs you aren't allowed to.

To argue for the other side, having to figure out the appropriate items for an entry, potentially multiple times over the course of their career, sounds like a pain in the ass. Doling out the skill points is already regarded mostly as a necessary evil, and this could well be worse.

It would also raise the bar for entering the competition; now not only must you have a cool character concept, a grasp of the classes and feats involved, and possibly skills and magical subsystems, now you also need to know what items you should be decking out your entry with.

ciopo

2021-06-12, 01:38 AM

true that, but to do otherwise is putting an onus of "assumed competency" on the judge.

a simple example : two entries makes a figther 20, one of them mentions the use of WBL'omancy to deal with the situations a fighter usually have no solution for, simple WBL'omancy, like an item to have fly, anklet of translocation, healing belt/belt of battle, and so on. quality of life item, not crazy "I break the game by UMDing wands/scrolls", just buying magic items to cover for the weak spots of the character.

the other entries makes no mention of any of these.

It is obvious to me that those kind of items are "needed", I have the competence/experience to know I should buy "this or that" by level "so and so" to cover for a weakness a character have.

am I to judge the second entry above with my level of competency, or with the competency displayed by the contestant?

And yet, we contestants are discouraged from displaying the experience we have at choosing the items. maybe the second contestant of hte fighter above will spend most of its WBL for a +5 weapon and +5 armor and a +6str bonus, which I judge as a worse choice than spreading the wealth around onto utility items, from a "power" metric.

"you'll be killed by the first dragon played intelligently, you have no way of flying" is a fair critique of the second fighter.

I understand that the additional "paperwork" feels unnecessary after the NNNth time we've made a character, so to make it mandatory, probably too much.

But to penalize/discourage those that do go this extra mile with the looming threat of "mentioning items risks you point deduction" is counterintuitive to me, it should be the other way around.

Of course, by all means, if a build doesn't work without very specific items, that aren't the commonly found ones, that's worth a penalty to me.

I'm serious when I say I consider taking Vow of poverty within the scope of the gitp contests. What it's being compared to (by me) are characters without any magic item anyway, so why shouldn't I? shrugs
and yet it (rightly so) gets dinged on power for losing access to the WBL

GreatWyrmGold

2021-06-12, 11:19 AM

who the chef (or "mad scientist" for this comp?)
I tried to think of a good metaphor that wasn't used by any other major competition, and came up short. If anyone has a suggestion, let me know.

true that, but to do otherwise is putting an onus of "assumed competency" on the judge. -snip-
Speaking as someone who's judged for this kind of competition (albeit Villainous Competition more often than Iron Chef), I don't feel the need to equip characters with WBL-appropriate gear and figure out exactly what they can and can't do. Moreover, a lot of gear for effective characters is going to be similar to gear for other effective characters, especially when you consider that the kinds of unique special items that might actually make or break a build may or may not come up in a campaign. In other words, the only time you can actually make gear proficiency matter to your entry is when your entry is reliant on specific magic items, which is seen as a no-no.

At the end of the day, testing competitors' skill at selecting good magic items just isn't worth the hassle of making every competitor select gear at every level—or, for that matter, the hassle of making judges read through and parse those gear listings!

Tzardok

2021-06-12, 12:25 PM

I tried to think of a good metaphor that wasn't used by any other major competition, and came up short. If anyone has a suggestion, let me know.

How about "breeder"?

Thurbane

2021-06-12, 06:42 PM

So my PC with about a year's worth of data I hadn't backed up has died. I'm going to try and salvage the disks in the next day or so to see what I can recover, but I suspect the primary HDD has suffered catastrophic failure.

Needless to say, I may or may not get an entry in at this point. :smallfrown:

ciopo

2021-06-13, 03:59 AM

Speaking as someone who's judged for this kind of competition (albeit Villainous Competition more often than Iron Chef), I don't feel the need to equip characters with WBL-appropriate gear and figure out exactly what they can and can't do. Moreover, a lot of gear for effective characters is going to be similar to gear for other effective characters, especially when you consider that the kinds of unique special items that might actually make or break a build may or may not come up in a campaign. In other words, the only time you can actually make gear proficiency matter to your entry is when your entry is reliant on specific magic items, which is seen as a no-no.

At the end of the day, testing competitors' skill at selecting good magic items just isn't worth the hassle of making every competitor select gear at every level—or, for that matter, the hassle of making judges read through and parse those gear listings!
Fair, I'm convinced.

Question: how do I go about deciding what ( if any) the favored class for a creature is? those with "native" LA -

It has implication for possible multiclass penalties, and therefore possible elegance penalties

GreatWyrmGold

2021-06-13, 11:30 AM

Question: how do I go about deciding what ( if any) the favored class for a creature is? those with "native" LA -

It has implication for possible multiclass penalties, and therefore possible elegance penalties
There aren't favored classes listed for those, or for the overwhelming majority of monsters with listed level adjustments. That's not something the LA-reassignment threads change.

In this, as with many cases where the rules are absent or unclear, I'd bring this up in a section at the end for clearing up such loose ends. Say something like "Salamanders don't have a listed favored class, but they're martial so fighter seems like a decent choice, if you disagree you might get multiclass XP penalties". I think most people would go "Yes, that makes sense, no reason to penalize salamanders by depriving them of something all ordinary races have" or "Multiclass XP penalties are dumb anyways".

Beni-Kujaku

2021-06-19, 02:14 PM

How is everybody doing here?

QuadraticGish

2021-06-19, 03:00 PM

Mostly done on my end. There's just feats to fill in that I've been dragging my feet on. Question: Does LA count towards initiator level?

Beni-Kujaku

2021-06-19, 04:45 PM

Mostly done on my end. There's just feats to fill in that I've been dragging my feet on. Question: Does LA count towards initiator level?

Congratulations! No, LA does not count towards anything, only the number of levels that you can't take.

Thurbane

2021-06-20, 08:30 PM

GreatWyrmGold

2021-06-21, 08:24 AM

I hope this isn't speculation, but question/clarification request for the chair: is the ruling for this comp that PrCs can advance innate casting wihtout requiring level(s) in an actual spellcasting class, or is at least one actual class level required before you PrC?
The former, but this contest's specific rules require at least one level of fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric. A drider could use its innate spellcasting to qualify for the Loremaster prestige class, and advance it through the Loremaster's "+1 level of existing class," but a Drider 8/Loremaster 10/Barbarian 2 build would fail to meet this contest's theme requirement. (Drider 8/Fighter 2/Loremaster 10 would be fine, though.)

I have no idea why someone might make a drider Loremaster gish, which I think makes that a pretty good example case.

Birchy

2021-07-01, 09:36 AM

Question for the chair- can you use prestige classes that expand spell lists to expand divine crusader's spell list,

Thanks, Birchy

Voldine

2021-07-01, 11:47 AM

Thurbane

2021-07-01, 03:56 PM

Question for the chair- can you use prestige classes that expand spell lists to expand divine crusader's spell list,

Thanks, Birchy

I don't want to pre-empt the chair, but this is 100% RAW, so I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed.

Beni-Kujaku

2021-07-01, 04:15 PM

Getting started a little late on this I guess, but are we allowed to alter the feats in the monster statblocks as if we were using the Savage Species monster level system with an adjusted LA, or must we assume the default preordained feats are etched into the DNA of these monster species we are building upon?

Based on Villainous Competition (and I assume it is, since the opposite would be much more boring), yes, you can change the "natural" feats for any feat you qualify for (except the bonus feats the creature gets, like the Weapon Finesse that many dex-based monsters get for free, of course).

Thurbane

2021-07-01, 05:12 PM

I'm trying to juggle this with my VC entry, and chairing JYW, but I have a basic build that I'm happy with.

It has one significant weakness, though, so I'll need to find a way around that before I go much further.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-02, 08:40 AM

Question for the chair- can you use prestige classes that expand spell lists to expand divine crusader's spell list,

Thanks, Birchy
...is there a reason you wouldn't be able to?

Getting started a little late on this I guess, but are we allowed to alter the feats in the monster statblocks as if we were using the Savage Species monster level system with an adjusted LA, or must we assume the default preordained feats are etched into the DNA of these monster species we are building upon?
You can alter any non-bonus feats in the monster's statblock. Bonus feats are etched into their DNA/souls/racial bonuses/whatever, so no luck there, but everything else is just their default level-up feats.

Four days left! I haven't received many entries, but hopefully that changes soon.

QuadraticGish

2021-07-02, 12:19 PM

Four days left! I haven't received many entries, but hopefully that changes soon.
I've gotten back into it and I've just been hit with a lot of chart work. It's unfortunately necessary because of the weirdness I'm working with. Question. If we have maneuvers or spell casting, are we required to list out all maneuver and spell choices or just significant ones? EDIT: Same question, but for skill point expenditures as well.

Voldine

2021-07-02, 02:42 PM

I've gotten back into it and I've just been hit with a lot of chart work. It's unfortunately necessary because of the weirdness I'm working with. Question. If we have maneuvers or spell casting, are we required to list out all maneuver and spell choices or just significant ones? EDIT: Same question, but for skill point expenditures as well.

The rules do state that skill points must be accounted for. I just spent the last hour redoing mine because I derped on the math and was working with the wrong int bonus from the start because I work third shift.:smallannoyed:

Thurbane

2021-07-02, 06:10 PM

Skill, for me anyway, are usually the most tedious and frustrating part of a build/table.

mattie_p

2021-07-02, 09:06 PM

I'll probably not be joining this particular contest this go-around, but I might as well drop this here since competitors here are in active construction phase.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BG0-5sq4dL9Ooh7-QfXuyHzO4rXSz-CRcj29t6BeUVE/edit?usp=sharing

This google sheet has a tab for the 20-level table (easily adaptable for E6), a tab for ability scores, and a tab for spells/powers/whatever you want. Even a pre-made table for entries for judging purposes.

Fill in the blanks in the wider columns. Narrow columns contain the necessary bbcode to format the table for the board. If you need to add rows, make sure to copy the code in the narrow columns to your new row. Don't delete the first or last rows, those contain the open and close table tags. If you need to delete columns, delete both a wide and narrow column to ensure that everything formats properly.

Hope this helps anyone who needs it.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-03, 12:58 PM

Skill, for me anyway, are usually the most tedious and frustrating part of a build/table.
It's an absolute pain. It's fiddly, usually irrelevant (unless you're going for a skillmonkey of course), but enough things are gated behind skill ranks that you can't not include it like you can with gear.

This google sheet has a tab for the 20-level table (easily adaptable for E6), a tab for ability scores, and a tab for spells/powers/whatever you want. Even a pre-made table for entries for judging purposes.
Oh wow, that's pretty cool! Seems like something that this sort of contest should link in their rules.
Speaking of which, if there is a second Monster Mash, may I link to this table in its rules?

mattie_p

2021-07-03, 01:08 PM

Oh wow, that's pretty cool! Seems like something that this sort of contest should link in their rules.
Speaking of which, if there is a second Monster Mash, may I link to this table in its rules?

Yes, you or anyone may link it. I believe it covers enough use cases that it can be used in every current competition, and can be pretty easily adapted.

Edit: in case it isn't clear, copy all highlighted cells directly into the message post here at this site.

Beni-Kujaku

2021-07-03, 01:08 PM

The rules do state that skill points must be accounted for. I just spent the last hour redoing mine because I derped on the math and was working with the wrong int bonus from the start because I work third shift.:smallannoyed:

The "skills are not recalculated when you gain a bonus point in INT" is better in a real game but it's so much of a pain when planning a whole build out

NotInventedHere

2021-07-03, 05:33 PM

Can I get a quick clarification from the chair on this part of the rules:

For the purpose of this competition, all races use the modified level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825). Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not yet rated may not be used.

When it says 'Monsters not yet rated may not be used', should the cutoff point for that be the time when you posted the OP of the thread, or should the cutoff point be when the competition closes?

Voldine

2021-07-04, 07:57 AM

The "skills are not recalculated when you gain a bonus point in INT" is better in a real game but it's so much of a pain when planning a whole build out

Actually it was the opposite for me. I did my first skill point calculations before realizing that I was going to get one less ability score increase than I had thought, went back and took two points out of INT to pump STR up by one at the start, and then forgot to recalculate my baseline skill points until I was TEN levels into filling out the stat blocks. Even with copy and paste it was a chore to redo because the build isn't as simple as many "Just add 1 to everything every level" builds can be.

QuadraticGish

2021-07-05, 12:05 PM

Damn, I just realized I goofed really hard on feats. I forgot to take into account LA's effect on it. My saving grace is that it turns out for some reason that Combat Casting does not require caster levels.

EDIT: I just realized this is convenient. I get to pick up a feat on a much more ideal level.
EDIT 2: Just realized I calc'd skills with the wrong int mod. Gotta redo them.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-06, 09:48 AM

Can I get a quick clarification from the chair on this part of the rules:

When it says 'Monsters not yet rated may not be used', should the cutoff point for that be the time when you posted the OP of the thread, or should the cutoff point be when the competition closes?
When the competition closes. Definitely something to clarify if there's a next time.

One day left. Hope NotInvented doesn't mind the belated clarification...sorry about that.

ciopo

2021-07-06, 10:04 AM

I hope there's a next time!

Birchy

2021-07-06, 02:56 PM

My Build Is Done! Can't Wait for the reveal! Also, it's my first not iron chefTM so be honest as well as nice

NotInventedHere

2021-07-06, 03:56 PM

When the competition closes. Definitely something to clarify if there's a next time.

One day left. Hope NotInvented doesn't mind the belated clarification...sorry about that.

Thanks for the clarification!

Fortunately I already had a specific build in mind, and have a few free hours to materialise it, so I *should* just barely squeak in under the deadline - fingers crossed.

Voldine

2021-07-06, 04:56 PM

Okay, second concept that came to me is finished and submitted. Hopefully the two will be nice and distinct in the eyes of the judges. Then again, I just hope I'm not too rusty with this whole powergaming thing. These two and my one e6 appetizer round entry are the first time in years that I've tried to build 'uber' characters.

Thurbane

2021-07-06, 05:17 PM

100% not going to get a entry in. Looking forward to see what people came up with, and I'll post my stub after the reveal. :smallsmile:

QuadraticGish

2021-07-06, 06:10 PM

Gonna have to rush finish. Might have to drop out of finishing the stubs to get it in.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-06, 06:44 PM

Thanks for the clarification!

Fortunately I already had a specific build in mind, and have a few free hours to materialise it, so I *should* just barely squeak in under the deadline - fingers crossed.
The originally-stated deadline is in less than 20 minutes, but I'm going to wait a good bit longer since I failed to answer such an important question until about nine hours before the deadline. Mea culpa! Mea culpa...grande? (I don't actually speak Latin.)

QuadraticGish

2021-07-06, 06:56 PM

I just sent mine in with minutes to spare. Hopefully I didn't gloss over any crippling errors and the skimping on some fluff wasn't too bad.

NotInventedHere

2021-07-06, 07:10 PM

Build submitted, a tiny bit late technically, but. eh. pretty good for something whipped up in 3 hours.

I just sent mine in with minutes to spare. Hopefully I didn't gloss over any crippling errors and the skimping on some fluff wasn't too bad.

Mood.

EDIT:

The originally-stated deadline is in less than 20 minutes, but I'm going to wait a good bit longer since I failed to answer such an important question until about nine hours before the deadline. Mea culpa! Mea culpa...grande? (I don't actually speak Latin.)
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, at least according to the Catholic Church.

EDIT2: I'd also just like to note that this would absolutely not have been possible without mattie_p's excellent Google Doc for formatting, not even slightly. It was an enormous time- and, more importantly, stress-saver.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BG0-5sq4dL9Ooh7-QfXuyHzO4rXSz-CRcj29t6BeUVE/edit?usp=sharing

Hope this helps anyone who needs it.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-07, 09:42 AM

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, at least according to the Catholic Church.
I suppose they'd probably know best.

Anyways! Impromptu extension closed. We've got seven entries, and I'll be posting them about as quickly as GitP lets me. Once I've posted all seven, I'd appreciate if our judges would step forward and judge.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-07, 09:43 AM

Asterion the Devout

To the tune of the lumberjack song (https://youtu.be/FshU58nI0Ts?t=34)

I'm a minotaur and I'm Ok
I pray all night and I charge all day

He's a minotaur and he's ok
he prays all night and charges all day

I mop down foes, I eat my lunch
I go to the purgatory and with that my bardic ispiration is expended for the year.

The theme for this first competition is "back to basics", and what's the original charge in a nutshell? doing ONE attack!

Pounce + shocktropper? boring! Lance multipliers shenanigans? seen a million times! Leap attack + dive ? Ok that's slighty rarer but still well known. let's make an "original" charge! (Both in as "not usually seen done that way" and "charge as it was originally used")

With that in mind, well let's pick a monster that has the powerful charge extraordinary ability.

Not many of them, but man isn't a minotaur iconic? so here we are :)

This was born as a fighter, originally, and ended up being a gish instead, is this gish better than the fighter? Well.... probably, and if that isn't 3.5 in a nutshell then I don't know what is
CE Cleric 3 / Psychic Warrior 4 / Psychic Theurge 7
Minotaur (6RHD, LA+0,Large size, Scent(ex), Powerful Charge(ex), Natural cunning (ex), 5 Natural armor bonus, Gore natural weapon (1d8 piercing))
STR 24(16 + 8 Racial), DEX 12, CON 18 (14 +4 Racial), INT 4 (8 - 4 Racial), WIS 18 (14 + 4 level ups) , CHA 10 (12 - 2 Racial)
HP : 8 + 12d8 + 7d4 + 80 + 10 (169)
saves : Fortitude 15 Reflexes 10 Will 16

beefed up stats
Gargantuan size
AC : 37 (10-4 size +1 dex +5 natural +13 inertial armor + 4 force screen + 4(2x magic vestment) + 4 mental barrier + X from amulet of natural armor), 50% miss chance
BAB : 20 ( divine power)
STR : 24 +8 profane (animal devotion) + 6 enhacement (divine power) +4 size(expansion)
Best case scenario for the charge of boom! (All disputes ruled in favor) :+34(20 BAB -4 size +16 str +2 charge) to Hit for 28d6(uncapped gore, scaling racial ability, 4d6 powerful charge) +26(STR*1.5+2 strength domain) piercing damage, possibly doubled if doing a dive attack
Worst case scenario for the charge of boom! (All disputes ruled against) : +34 to hit for 16d6 (12d6 capped gore, nonscaling racial ability, 4d6 powerful charge) +26 piercing damage, possibly doubled if doing a dive attack
these are "naked" no item stats, with only Self buffs

HD/ECL
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

[tr]
6
Racial Hit Die 6
+6/+1
+2
+5
+5
Knowledge(Religion) +3, Knowledge(Psionics) 1(+2), Psicraft 3(+6)
Powerful Charge, , Earth Sense
Apprentice(Spellcaster: Religion), Powerful Charge(Ex), Natural Cunning(Ex)

7
Cleric of Baphomet 1 / RHD 6
+6/+1
+4
+5
+7
Knowledge(Religion) 3+1
Strength Devotion, Animal Devotion
Rebuke Undead, Spontaneous Casting

8
Cleric 2 / RHD 6
+7/+2
+5
+5
+8
Knowledge(Religion) 4+1

9
Cleric 2 / Psychic Warrior 1 / RHD 6
+7/+2
+7
+5
+8
Concentration +2, Knowledge(Psionics) 1+2, Psicraft 3+1(2)
Open Minded, Earth Power

10
Cleric 2 / Psychic Warrior 2 / RHD 6
+8/+3
+8
+5
+8
Knowledge(Psionics) 3+1
Practiced Manifester

11
Cleric 3 / Psychic Warrior 2 / RHD 6
+9/+4
+8
+6
+8
Knowledge(Religion) 5+1

12
Cleric 3 / Psychic Warrior 3 / RHD 6
+10/+5
+8
+7
+8
Knowledge(Psionics) 4+1
Overchannel

13
Cleric 3 / Psychic Warrior 4 / RHD 6
+11/+6/+1
+9
+7
+8
Knowledge(Psionics) 5+1

14
Cleric 3 / Psychic Theurge 1 / Psychic Warrior 4 / RHD 6
+11/+6/+1
+9
+7
+10
Concentration 2+1

15
Cleric 3 / Psychic Theurge 2 / Psychic Warrior 4 / RHD 6
+12/+7/+2
+9
+7
+11
Concentration 3+1
Improved Natural Attack(Gore)

16
Cleric 3 / Psychic Theurge 3 / Psychic Warrior 4 / RHD 6
+12/+7/+2
+10
+8
+11
Concentration 4+1

17
Cleric 3 / Psychic Theurge 4 / Psychic Warrior 4 / RHD 6
+13/+8/+3
+10
+8
+12
Concentration 5+1

18
Cleric 3 / Psychic Theurge 5 / Psychic Warrior 4 / RHD 6
+13/+8/+3
+10
+8
+12
Concentration 6+1
Shape Soulmeld(Totem Avatar)

19
Cleric 3 / Psychic Theurge 6 / Psychic Warrior 4 / RHD 6
+14/+9/+4
+11
+9
+12
Concentration 7+1

20
Cleric 3 / Psychic Theurge 7 / Psychic Warrior 4 / RHD 6
+14/+9/+4
+11
+9
+12
Concentration 8+1

The number inside () assumes a +4 wisdom item, otherwise the value is given as if we had no bonuses to wisdom. If we find/obtain a +6 wisdom item, the differences at level 20 would be an extra third level spell slot and 87 total power points reserve. If we find/obtain only a +2 wisdom item, the differences would be one less second level spell slot and 72 total power points reserve. At 12 HD our native wisdom go from 15 to 16, hence the bump of power points, same deal at 20 HD where we go from 17 to 18 wisdom, which also naturalizes a bonus 4th level spell slot

HD
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
Power Points Reserve
New powers learned
Caster Level / Manifester Level(Overchannel)

7
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
1/-

8
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
2/-

9
4
3
-
-
-
-
1(2)
Inertial Armor
2/1

10
4
3
-
-
-
-
7(13)
Expansion
2/6

11
4
3
2
-
-
-
7(13)
-
3/6

12
4
3(4)
2
-
-
-
13(20)
Force Screen
3/7(9)

13
4
3(4)
2
-
-
-
17(25)
Hustle
3/8(10)

14
5
4(5)
3
-
-
-
20(29)
Damp power
4/9(11)

15
5
4(5)
3
2
-
-
26(36)
Energy Adaption(specified)
5/10(13)

16
5
4(5)
4
3
-
-
31(42)
Concealing Amorpha, Greater
6/11(14)

17
6
5(6)
4
3
1(2)
-
37(49)
Mental Barrier
7/12(15)

18
6
5(6)
4
4
2(3)
-
42(55)
Animal Affinity
8/13(16)

19
6
5(6)
5
4
2(3)
1(2)
48(62)
Open Chakra, psionic
9/14(17)

20
6
5(6)
5(6)
4
4
2(3)
65(80)
Dimension Door, Psionic
10/15(18)

This started out as RHD 6 / fighter 4 / Thayan gladiator 10, and went for weapon specialization+ melee mastery, because we're at a "basic" round, and to avoid the usual charge optimizations ( Pounce, shock trooper, leap attack and so on )
Sadly, melee mastery doesn't work with natural weapons
But, taking such suboptimal feat choices was making me feel ill, it was like hearing a million munchkins die, so I revised and revised.
I had some fun courting the thunderstep boots from Incarnum, or even incandescent champion! Blame the current "blue" round of Iron Chef that primed my mind to all things Incarnum!
The rough evolution of this build was :
fighter 4 / thayan gladiator 10
fighter 4 / psychic warrior 5 / thayan gladiator 5 --> expansion became a much hawt thing to bulk up the size since we're starting large, and psychic warrior was also giving us psycarnum infusion for shenanigans. we had about 4 essentia at this time, and were courting totem avatar for that shoulder bind effect
cleric 4 / psychic warrior 5 / thayan gladiator 5 --> at a point I took strength devotion into consideration, at first I tried to make do with it as a figther, but then I thought "why am I staying married to the fighter? I'm not even taking weapon specialization anymore! and cleric is one of the 4 basic! let's try to go cleric instead??"
Cleric 4 /psychic warrior 5 / thayan gladiator 2 / psychic theurge 3 : "well, I'm taking two magic subsystems, I'd be an idiot if I didn't theurge them since I'm keeping them near parity to avoid multiclass penalties anyway"
cleric 4 /psychic warrior 5 / psychic theurge 5 : "why am I taking two awful feat taxes for thayan gladiator, let's just take Improved natural attack directly and be a better theurge!" : (Cleric 4/ psy7war 5 are needed to have enough skill points to enter theurge) at this point I was doing midnight metamagic shenanigans with psycarnum infusion
cleric 3/psychic warrior 4/ psychic theurge 7 : the conclusion, because once you theurge you want to try to maximixe the theurging, in the end I dropped the shady shenanigans for a more pure concept. I generally don't like shenanigans much, okay maybe a little bit, but not for actual play.

Why am I taking Shape soulmeld (totem avatar) at that level : Originally it was at level 9 that I was going to take it, to "flow into" Opening the shoulder chakra at the 12th level feat, but then I decided to take Open minded to qualify for psychic theurge "the earliest possible", taking Open minded with one of the RHD feats felt very inelegant to me, because I'd have to spend all the points on cross class skills. Totem Avatar was therefore relegated to level 6 for a while, but then, earth power! It speaks to me for a minotaur, it fits!, But that bumped totem avatar away, to just before we unlock the chakra :)

I know about the "usual" houserule for these contests of "feats that grants skill points/class skills are valid for the level in which they are taken" which would let me take practiced manifester at level 9 with the bonus feat, with a cascading effect of niceness, but in the end since I could stay RAW-legal without losing much power, I didn't see a reason not to. The difference would be swapping earth power and practiced manifester, making Inertial armor at level 9 last 5 hours, augmented to 6AC

I was happily taking Improved natural attack at level 1 and having Talented at level 15, when I got a Carole&Tuesday moment of flabbergasting because... apparently Psychic warrior does nto have psicraft as a class skill! :(((((( , while I could shuffled practiced manifester down to level 18 and take the 4 ranks of psicraft as a psychic theurge... one of the big drawn of taking practiced manifester early is having the ML and PP to do things with it at these levels, so it is with sadness that I sacrificed being talented, moved Improved natural attack at level 15, and took Apprentice to qualify for stuff (Racial skill points used to be spent on crossclass religion and crossclass psionics). if you take pity of us and consider Apprentice(manifester) a valid choice, making psionics + psicraft class skill, this improves the build a little since we gain 5 ranks spent into crossclass skill that we can put on concentration instead, maybe we could even get away with not taking Open minded, who knows!?

The powers choices, other than expansion, are taken with a mind toward survivability and movement. The choice of not going for the mantled warrior ACF ( freedom mantle) is deliberate. I'm sure I'd take psionic fly if we went for mantled warrior, but I didn't want to take such a standard charop, it'd work well with our tactic, because gore is piercing damage so we would be allowed to do diving charges for double damage, which is sexy and all but as much hilarious a diving minotaur would be, we're a minotaur, it's off theme to be flying, AND it doesn't fits thematically with earth power. But it bears mention. We still can do it if we fancy that (natively with Footstep of the divine at the very least)
Animal Affinity is taken that late because everything else made more sense to me as a progressive "I want to get harder to kill", barring the obvious hustle which was taken ASAP :). at that point nothing 3rd level inspired me except maybe dimension slide, but we'd be taking dimension door later (complete psionic version!), and the only other AC boosting power we were missing was thicken skin, which compares unfavorably to animal affinity (dexterity), plus we could boost it for bonus constitution too, which sweetened the deal. I know the goodness about hostile empathic transfer, but : 1) kinda wrong theme for a minotaur 2) we don't have the concentration to reliable make the DC for manifesting defensively 3) mind affecting immunities yadda yadda 4) we are a gish and our save DC is only around 17-19 for it

I tried to stay "simple", since the theme is "back to basics". I probably failed @ simple :(

Originally, the level up points were all on strength and the points were much more physical than mental, along the lines of 18 8 16 8 12 8 before racial, but that's when he was a dumb fighter going into thayan gladiator.
Even when I moved to psychic theurge, I was still giving the level ups to strength, but I can't in good conscience make the comparison of what higher strength gives us versus what higher wisdom gives us and choose to increase strength

How do we fare on the monstruosity point? Well, what being minotaurs gives us is a nice spread of physical ability score, large size (!) and a special attack which is our gimmick. Would we be able to do this gimmick "same or better" with 6 more class levels? I don't think so! We could probably do something similar, but not as good with 6 more class levels. We aren't making a king of smack, despite the similarity one might find. The build definying thing is "one charge, one attack"

I'm sad I don't make much use of Natural cunning and scent, but with an hefty -4 to intelligence it's very difficult to put points on survival to make use of it, and it's not even a "race skill" :( , there's a bit of fluff synergy with earth sense and I'm happy about that, but there isn't much a minotaur can do to make proper use of those, maybe as a ranger, but TWF/archery is kinda missing the point of minotauring. I legit strongly considered apprentice(woodsman), if for no other reason TO SING THE LUMBERJACK SONG! "I'm a minotaur and I'm OK!" whistles , and GREATAXE'ING!

Foreword: both spell prepared and forecasted power expenditure assumes no item at all, we are naked! The psychic warrior side of things especially is much improved with a wisdom boosting item and ideally a Torc of power preservation.

Mini story : we were a slave in the thayan gladiator pits, but Baphomet looked kindly upon us and bestowed us the power to avoid such a fate! Now we roam the world "smiting" the infidels making ONE POINTY ARGUMENT at a time! and what a COLOSSAL(++++!) ARGUMENT we make!

level 6-10:
As is ever with monsters with RHD, the start is usually strong.
In our case, strong means, when we are at our least, doing +14 for 6d6+10 (or +9 for 6d6+6, see disputes section) on a charge, since we're stacking powerful charge (ex) with powerful charge the feat. That's on the racial dice alone.

Typical prepared spells : 3x Vigor, lesser. We don't have the caster level yet to make much use of buff spells, and for the ECL we are at, Bless and other staple first level cleric spells don't cut it anymore, might as well just sustain. Keep in mind we are the bruiser/frontliner of the hypothetical party, not the dedicated divine/arcane spellcaster
Typical power points expenditure : 1PP 6hours of +4AC Inertial armor, 3/day of 60minutes expansion (2PP each) OR 6 round of +2size expansion (See on dispute section about earth power + max power cost possible discussion)

our first few level of clerics give us those nice devotion feats,right out the bat, plus the utility/sustain of cleric spells, plus the devotion we so courted. this puts our charge at about 15d6 if we take the safe hour long expansion, or 20d6 if we "nova" our expansion to +2 size

We can choose one first level spell as our favourite, and be able to cast it spontanously thanks to the Apprentice feat, but for being a 1st level spell at ECL7-10, not much comes to mind. maybe a protection from (good?)

level 11-15:
We start to ramp up the power point reserve and get access to higher level spell slots. I'm repeating that we are a beatstick, despite starting as a cleric that isn't our role. Don't unfairly compare us to "pure spellcasters would have 8th level spells by this point", that is not US! We were never going to be that while saddled with 6 RHD!

Typical spells prepared : those prepared at 10 plus 2x conviction; 1x Divine insight; 1x Silence ; 2x Magic vestment(see disputes);
Typical PP expenditure : 8PP per use of 130minutes of +2size expansion, 2PP for 13 hours of +5AC, 18 PP for (hustle/damp power/energy adaption) (2pp/use) and/or some Force Screen (1PP/use)

We can comfortably do the +2 size expansion, and by virtue of strength domain our Gore "graduated" to the 2d8 progression, which puts us in the weird situation of possibly doing 16d8+4d6 on a charge

Depending on how theurge is ruled to itneract with the apprentice feat, we might be locked forever on a 2nd level spell as our "favourite". In this case, I'm partial to lesser restoration, since it's the kind of situational spell that we might otherwise prepare just in case, but being able to convert to it spontanously is good enough to keep even at higher level.

level 16-20:
The unlocking of 4th level slots with the good old staple divine power marks us well and we can finally open our shoulder chakra to bind the totem for our final "virtual size up", plus of course the value of having those 5th level and below spell slot, the dedicated casters don't have to worry as much about buffing us, and/or we save wealth from buying "necessary" items of protection about "rare but debilitating" effects since we can self service on it, to everybody happyness!

Typical spells prepared : those prepared at 15 plus One situational 1st level spell; 1x Soul Ward; +1 Divine Insight; 2x Dispel Magic; 2x Divine power; 1x Freedom of movement; 1x Death ward; 1x true seeing; 1x Spell Resistance
Typical PP expenditure : 12PP open chakra*(see disputes), 8PP/use 180min +2 size, 18PP +13AC/18hours, 4/day Force Screen 4PP, 2/day amorpha 8PP, leftover 15 PP for hustle/damp/adaption/Dimension door/Mental barrier

And so ends our tale, strength devotion evolved again, plus we collected our last virtual size increase from the totem avatar, putting us at a forecasted Gorefest of 28d6 on a charge, and we got beefier from Divine power and fully evolved animal devotion too, for sweet hit chance plus the bonus damage from strength and whatever else we obtained.

We've also obtained a moderate amount of survivabilty with the stacked buffs we can put on ourselves, which are all either with a long enough duration that preparation rounds aren't really a factor, or are swift/immediate action and therefore manageable when possibly surprised. (Besides, we can't ever be flat footed, so we arguably always act on surprise rounds, given we have not one but two extra-sensorial features).

We're glaringly weak to intelligence damage, soul ward is prepared in respose to that.

Powerful charge(ex): on a charge your gore attack deals extra damage ( for the purpose of this competition, adjudicated by me to be equivalent to 3 size increases )
Natural cunning: Immune to maze spell, can't ever become lost, can track enemies, never flat-footed
Scent: Can track and sense creatures by the sense of smell
Powerful charge(feat): extra damage dice when charging, one attack only
Apprentice(Spellcaster): add knowledge(Any one) and Use magic device as class skill, 2 bonus skill points to spend on them, plus other ribbon effects
Improved natural attack: relative size of chosen natural attack is increased by one
Earth sense: move action to sense nearby creatures
Strength devotion: temporary, possibly permanent change to natural weapon damage dice, bypass adamantine and +2 circumstance bonus to damage
Animal devotion: profane boost to strength, or other utility effect such as movement speed, flight, poison
psionic focus: DC20 concentration check to become psionically focused, can spend focus to take 15 on concentration checks
Open minded: 5 skill points to spend on ranks as normal
Earth power: pay 1 less power point to manifest while on earth and psionically focused
Practiced manifester: +4 to the manifester level
Overchannel: take some damage to increase manifester level above the cap
Totem Avatar: Shaped:+ HD/2 HP; Chakra bound: our natural attacks are considered one size bigger
Inertial Armor: hour/ML duration, 1PP for 4 armor bonus, Augment 2PP for +1 AC
Expansion: round/ML duration, 1 pp for +1 size, Augments 2PP for 10min/ML duration, 6Pp for +2 size
Force Screen: min/ML duration, 1PP for +4 shield armor bonus, Augment 4PP for +1 AC
Hustle: 3PP swift action to gain extra move action
Damp Power: 3PP immediate action reduce all variable values of something affecting you to the minimum possible
Energy Adaption(specified): 10min/ML duration, 3PP gain energy resistance 10/20/30 to specified energy, Augment 4PP immediate action
Concealing Amorpha, Greater: standard action, round/ML duration, 5PP gain total concealment ( 50% miss chance)
Mental Barrier: immediate action, 1round, 5PP for +4 deflection AC bonus. Augment 1PP for +1round duration, 4PP for +1 AC
Animal Affinity: min/ML duration, 3PP for +4 enhacement bonus to any one ability score. Augment 5PP for affecting one other ability score
Open Chakra, psionic: 24hours, 7PP open one least chakra. Augment 6PP can open lesser chakra, augment 10PP can open greater chakra
Dimension Door, psionic: 7PP, as the spell. Augments -2PP for full round manifesting time, -2PP for range limitation 20 ft. 6PP manifest as move action, 2PP dazzle creatures near previous location

On earth power/torc of power preservation and Manifester level, the rules for psionics says that "you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level", the possible contention is in how power points cost reducers are applied. If they are applied after the maximum amount of payable power, first we augment something to ML, then reduce by 1(or 2 with the torc). if the limit is "power point spent", then we can augment to ML+1, and that means we can do a double size expansion at level 10 ( because we augment it to 1+6, but SPEND 6 PP) or other combos where we augment to above the ML, because the power cost reducers bring us back to a max cost of ML

On Shaping and binding soulmelds : a minor shenanigan here, while the RAI is somewhat clear that I'd have to respend the power points to reopen my shoulder chakra every 24 hours, keep in mind that soulmelds stay shaped unless willingly/forcibly unshaped, and the only RAW on the matter of unbinding soulmelds is "you do it when you shape a different soulmeld in that chakra slot" ( or get negative levels ), I can make an argument that like soulmelds stay shaped until unshaped, they also stay binded until replaced by another bind, we don't care that the chakra slot has since been closed. Did we bind it? the answer is yes, so it's binded. This reading/ruling on chakra binds essentially means that (Open chakra, psionic) is a one time PP cost, from a charop point of view we're trading one power known for the feat open lesser chakra (shoulders). This would be much less likely to fly if we had more soulmelds, and thus being exploitative of the psionic Open chakra, but for this character, the GM might allow that reading, and thus we have 12 more PP each day to play around

It is unclear how we can scale our racial Powerful charge extraordinary special attack with the size increases, the RAW reading is that "powerful charge" will always be +9 for 4d6+6, which is very sad. The RAI assumption I'm making is extrapolating it and treat it as some further "virtual size increase". the to hit and bonus flat damage are clearly meant to be"your normal attack bonus for a charge" and "1-1/2 STR plus whatever other flat bonus you might have", it's how to "size up" the 4d6 that becomes a possible contention. The easy solution is starting from 4d6 and "go up" 4 sizes (2 from expansion, one from INA, one from totem), the problem is that the size stops

There could be some contention in how Improved natural attack and bound totem avatar stack with each other and expansion size increase. In particular, a RAW reading of Improved natural attack is that you can't advance further than 12d6. This is potentially problematic because Expansion+Improved natural attack+Shoulder bound totem avatar brings our Powerful charge to Colossal(+), we can infer that the progression above 12d6 is "at least +4d6 per step", but that's an inference.

On strength devotion : this feat could use some editing.
As written, it strongly gives me the impression that everything from "in addition" onward is a permanent bonus, that doesn't sound right to me, but if you compare it to the other devotion feats in complete champion, you'll note that they all repeat some variation of "this bonus last 1 minute" at the end of the feat benefit description. Take Air devotion or good devotion as examples for this comparison.
Regardless of that, it's debatable if that's the RAI, but those turn attempts are there for a reason!
Another "problem" is how to parse "If you already have a natural weapon, use whichever damage value is higher." for the purpose of this entry, I'm parsing this as "I don't gain a slam attack, instead, my gore damage becomes that granted by this feat". This will probably be contentious, but it's the main draw that strength domain is giving me for this character, because it's putting our starting point for gore higher, and therefore "explodes" if we tag in more size increases.
Consider this, normally the gore is 1d8, but our racial charge is 4d6, if we go by the chart, this mean that our racial is equivalent to a virtual +3 size increase to our gore attack. so if we're starting from 3d6, and chain up our 7(!) size and virtual size increase, we end up with 24d6, Our racial becomes a difference of "from 1d8 to 4d6" to "from 12d6 to 24d6" !

Dimension Door, psionic : if we can, we'll take the complete psionic version, since it has a good range of extra augments. compared to the SRD version, we gain these extra augments: 2PP reduction but we manifest it as a full round action, 2PP reduction but the range is limited to 20 feet, 2PP augment and we dazzle remaining creatures in a 10feet burst from where we just left. It's debatable that this last effect has no save

On the stackability of Magic vestment : with the assumption that we will probably, eventually, have a monk belt, we don't want to be wearing actual armor, hence the power selection. Note that Inertial armor provides armor bonus, like bracers of armors would, meanwhile magic vestment is enhancement bonus to armor, the stackability comes from casting magic vestment on our clothes, and/or wear (but not use, since it's bonus is less than what Force screen provides) a buckler, to also get enhancement bonus to shield. GM might frown at these interaction, so discuss it first and adjust accordingly, how "armor bonus on item 1, enhancement bonus to armor bonus on item 2" stack is a contested topic, my reading of it is that "bracers of armor +5 and magic vestment for +5 clothes = total AC bonus of 10", but the reading "bracer of armor +5 and clothes +5 = AC of 5, because magic vestments bring the clothes from 0 armor bonus to 5 armor bonus, it's not an enhacement to the character armor bonus" is sometimes brought up on this matter. The cornerstone of the reading I favor ( they stack) is "different bonus types stack".
Luckily, if it's ruled they don't, we can just prepare something else!

On Overchannel: it is unclear if it's higher levels are unlocked with character level or manifester level, but the point is a little moot : we reach ML 15 by level 20th, so we will have the +3 overchannel unlocked either way in the long run.
We used to have talented, and there was a bit of words here about how when we'd use talented we woulnd't get the power cost reduction form earth power. Now we don't have talented anymore so those words are moot, instead you get this little blurb : the only things we overchannel are buffs we use out of combat, and damage taken out of combat is trivialized by out of combat healing

SRD : Race, cleric, psychic warrior, most powers, most spells; Open minded, Overchannel, Talented feats; mentioned items
Complete Psionic : Damp power, Dimension door (psionic) powers; Practiced manifester feat
Complete Champion : devotion feats and "take feat in place of domain" ACF; Soul ward, Footstep of the divine spells
Magic of Incarnum : Totem Avatar soulmeld; shape soulmeld feat; Open chakra, psionic
Races of Stone : Earth sense, Earth power feats
Monster manual V : Powerful charge, Improved natural attack feats
Spell Compendium : primary reference point for noncore spells
Psychic Theurge PrC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)
Dungeon Master Guide II : Apprentice feat

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-07, 09:44 AM

Bitter Wind

The inspiration for this was actually something that happened last tuesday, I was doing a "same campaign, side characters" in my weekly 3.5 games, and our one-shot party of four level 7 rangers had to deal with an encounter of two invisible stalkers. This was a published module, mind you.

Well, they were fun to fight against, and now all I'm thinking about is they'd make for nice rogues, what with the permament invisibility!

no LA kills that plan for actual play, but for this competition, here we are!

Plus, what perfect manouverability!? yummy!

8 RHD hurts, but we'll try to make do!

TN Rogue 7 / Scout 3
Dark Orglash Invisible Stalker
large elemental(air, cold, extraplanar)
STR 22 (14+8racial) DEX 24(14+8racial+2level) CON 22(14+4racial+4template) INT 18(14+4racial) WIS 14(10+4racial) CHA 12
Hit Points 8 +17d8 + 108 (192)
Speed: land 40ft., fly 70 ft. (perfect)
4d6 sneak attack + 5d6 skirmish on all within reach when moving on a line
Hide in plain sight
Move silently 34, Hide 32 (size malus included)

ECL
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Features

1
Template: Dark
-
-
-
-
Bonus to Hide (8) and Move silently (6)
-
all speed +10 ft. , Hide in plain sight , Cold resistance 10

2
Template: Orglash
-
-
-
-
-
-
natural armor +2 , Cone of cold 3/day , Fast healing 3 in cold climates, +2 Morale on saves vs Red wizards , CON +4 , Cold subtype , Native Elemental, Cold natural attack

10
Racial Hit Die 8
+6/+1
+2
+6
+2
Disguise +5(10),Listen +11, Move Silently +11, Search +11, Spot +11, Use Magic Device +5(10), Speak Language Common 2
Air heritage, Flyby attack, Great flyby attack
Natural invisibility, Improved tracking

11
RHD 8 / Rogue 1
+6/+1
+2
+8
+2
Disable Device +1, Disguise 5, Listen 11+1, Move Silently 11+1, Search 11+1, Spot 11+1, Tumble +1, Use magic Device 5+6
Darkstalker
Sneak Attack 1d6, Mimic 1/day

12
RHD 8 / Rogue 1 / Scout 1
+6/+1
+2
+10
+2
Disable Device 1, Disguise 5, Hide +8, Listen 12+1, Move Silently 12+1, Search 12+1, Spot 12+1, Tumble 1, Use magic Device 11
-
Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding

13
RHD 8 / Rogue 1 / Scout 2
+7/+2
+2
+11
+2
Disable Device 1+2, Disguise 5, Hide 8+6, Listen 13+1, Move Silently 13+1, Search 13+1, Spot 13+1, Tumble 1, Use magic Device 11
-
Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge

14
RHD 8 / Rogue 1 / Scout 3
+8/+3
+3
+10
+3
Disable Device 3+7, Disguise 5, Hide 14+1, Listen 14+1, Move Silently 14+1, Search 14+1, Spot 14+1, Tumble 1, Use magic Device 11
Swift Ambusher
Fast movement +10 ft., skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), trackless step, +1DEX

15
RHD 8 / Rogue 2 / Scout 3
+9/+4
+3
+11
+3
Disable Device 10, Disguise 5+2, Hide 15+1, Listen 15+1, Move Silently 15+1, Search 15+1, Spot 15+1, Tumble 1, Use magic Device 11+5
-
Evasion, skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC)

16
RHD 8 / Rogue 3 / Scout 3
+10/+5
+4
+11
+4
Disable Device 10+2, Disguise 7+4, Hide 16+1, Listen 16+1, Move Silently 16+1, Search 16+1, Spot 16+1, Tumble 1, Use magic Device 16+1
-
Sneak attack +2d6, Mimic 2/day

17
RHD 8 / Rogue 4 / Scout 3
+11/+6/+1
+4
+12
+4
Disable Device 12+3, Disguise 11+3, Hide 17+1, Listen 17+1, Move Silently 17+1, Search 17+1, Spot 17+1, Tumble 1, Use magic Device 17+1
Improved Skirmish
Improved uncanny dodge, Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)

18
RHD 8 / Rogue 5 / Scout 3
+11/+6/+1
+4
+12
+4
Disable Device 15+3, Disguise 14+3, Hide 18+1, Listen 18+1, Move Silently 18+1, Search 18+1, Spot 18+1, Tumble 1, Use magic Device 18+1
-
Sneak attack +3d6, +1DEX

19
RHD 8 / Rogue 6 / Scout 3
+12/+7/+2
+5
+13
+5
Disable Device 18+2, Disguise 17+3, Hide 19+1, Listen 19+1, Move Silently 19+1, Search 19+1, Spot 19+1, Tumble 1+1, Use magic Device 19+1
-
Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC), Mimic 3/day

20
RHD 8 / Rogue 7 / Scout 3
+13/+8/+3
+5
+13
+5
Disable Device 20+1, Disguise 20+1, Hide 20+1, Listen 20+1, Move Silently 20+1, Search 20+1, Spot 20+1, Tumble 2+4, Use magic Device 20+1
Craven
Sneak attack +4d6

The intro said it all for what the inspiration for this was. The feat selection is nothing to write home about, because if you're making a rogue/scout, the feats that are great for precision damage are the usual suspects :) The only "new blood" form this point of view are the feats taken with the racial HDs, it amuses me to no end that I can air heritage an air elemental :D. I feel going Great flyby on a permanently invisible large(reach!) creature makes for a cool story, so here we are.

The disguise ranks and mimic ACF are with this reasoning : Bitter wind knows he's vulnerable to fire damage, his solution to that : pretend to be a fire elemental!
Sure, it won't help against true seeing ( other than the physical disguise ), but against the more common see invisibility, it could work. Besides we gain trapfinding again from scout so we lose nothing to do this minor shenanigan.

No face skills: we're permanently invisible, we can't really "face" that much :D

The templates: I didn't want to go above 7 of rogue, because I strongly dislike "you don't gain this thing because you already have it" things and we'd be losing on improved uncanny dodge since we've got it already, I'm already grumbling about the useless cold resistance from the dark template, but I wanted HiPS form *something* even if it's kinda "you're invisible, what do you need it for!?" well, I find it funny! There were no PrC that tickled my fancy and I didn't want to get multiclass penalties by adding 2 levels for something else / delay swift ambusher to put them earlier in the build, I'm already assuming rogue as the favourite class!

We *would* be using the HiPS against anything that sees over our invisibility anyway! There is this very funny interaction : being invisible gives a very chonky +40 bonus to our hide check if we're immobile, or +20 if we're moving. This bonus to hide checks RAW isn't negated by see invisibility/true seeing, so when we try to *hide* because some enemy is actually seeing us, well, we can because we have HiPS, and it synergises with being invisible :D, because unless they got a fairly significant spot, we actually *can* hide! (I know, RAI you might disagree, I do disagree and I'd negate that "bonus to hide because invisible" but this is funny as hell so I'm going to use it :D)

I find the Orglash template a solid pick for a +1 given the set of goodies it gives us. The only bad thing is that fire damage is very common, but we pumped UMD so we should be capable of getitng ourselves some fire resist without much hassle.

Invisible stalker has no listed favored class, because originally it didn't have an LA. My personal preference for these creatures that normally don't get PC classes is either "the first level taken is his favourite class" or "whichever base class seems to be the best fit naturally would be his favourite class". For Invisible stalker, Rogue seems the way to go for me, but if you think

ECL 10:
While we only have racial hit dice, we only have the one gimmick : we have a quite solid 70 feet of perfect flying, which we can use to do "drill by" flyby attacks.
at this level it's not that common that we'd be seen, and *flying* makes that much harder keeping track of us, especially if we move silently, at no action cost because we're invisible! So we should be a right terror. Worst comes to worst we should have an easy enough time running away!

ECL 11-15:
Darkstalker combines "excellently" with natural invisibility, especially for those that woudl rely on blind-sense and blindsight :D we're starting to add a bit of precision damage, but we're up to only 3d6 combined sneak attack + skirmish. At least we're starting to branch out to a skillmonkeying role

ECL 16-20:
Our last two feats ( remember, feats depend on HD, not ECL ) are no brainers when it comes to increase precision damage, with craven being a straight +18 and Improved skirmish a passable 2d6. Our little proof of concept invisible stalker is thus complete.

Now, the question we should ask ourselves is, do the RHD and the template justify the lost levels, would this be better off with 10 more class levels.

What being an invisible stalker gives us, at the end of the day, is perfect flying and natural invisibility, those are solid abilities, and the air elemental only template is quite literally something only an air elemental could get. Are these worthy things over 9-10 levels of rogue/prcs ? in my opinion, yes!
Following tracks using a spot check is nice too, and fairly unique as a mechanic, especially because "spot boosters" are much more common than survival boosters. just first level spells such as Eye of the avoral and hawk eye are already +13, let alone the madness that is linked perception

Air heritage: flight speed increased by 30 ft.
Flyby attack: can take standard action during a move or charge action
Great Flyby attack: full round action attack all enemies within reach while flying in a straight line
Darkstalker: can't be sensed by blindsense,blindsight, tremorsense, scent
mimic: x/day disguise self
skirmish: bonus precision damage and AC when moving at least 10 ft.
Battle fortitude: +1 tof ortitude save and initiative checks
Swift Ambusher: rogue levels advance skirmish feature
Improved skirmish: +2d6 and +2 AC when moving at least 20 ft.
Craven: +HD to precision damage, -2 will save vs fear.
Dark template: Tome of magic
Orglash template: Unapproachable east
Air heritage: Planar handbook
Great Flyby attack : Savage species
Mimic ACF: Exemplars of evil
Darkstalker: Lords of madness
Scout base class: Complete Adventurer
Swift ambusher, Improved skirmish: Complete Scoundrel
Craven: Champions of Ruin

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-07, 09:46 AM

The White Wyrmling of Tiger Claw

Breaking out of his egg, a white wyrmling found himself alone. The cave itself absent of sound and warmth. There were no dragons, no food, and no treasure. The only hint that he wasn't just placed here were egg shell pieces that were not of his own. Seeking to ache his now rumbling stomach, the wyrmling stumbles out of the cave in search of food. The cave exited into a cold tundra, where snow coated the stone and dirt ground and the evergreen trees. The drake traveled far until he was too weak to travel by flight, and eventually was reduced to a slow crawl as hunger mounted. Hidden in the glades, he found a temple of stone where her could spot various humanoid mimicking the action of another. Seeing them as food, he struggled onto the training ground where he finally collapsed and unconscious rapidly consumed him.

The wyrmling awoke in a room of marble that was lit by the day from a window. His nose picked up something that made his mouth water. Next to the bed on a night stand was a beef stew that still appeared to be warm. Desperate for food, he quickly flew over to the bowl and began eating and slurping the stew as fast as possible to satiate his stomach. It was there he met the man training all the other humanoid; one of the elusive Jade Phoenix Mages. Feeling thanks for his rescue, the wyrmling made the choice not to kill everyone here and the master was more than happy to lend him the temple's hospitality.

After some months of having been there, the wyrmling decides that trying to join the training exercises would be an amusing venture and tries to do so- awkwardly considering his body type; however, he quickly became enamored with this and became a formal member of the temple. He seemed entirely incapable and impatient when it came to educational portions of the instruction, but outright excellent against his peer when it came down to mastering forms. The master eventually came to the conclusion to let him venture the world to advance his craft and then return to him for more instruction. Thus, the white wyrmling set out on his own with formal martial training.

For point buy there are two sets of ability score I think work out the best.

These are the set of ability scores the build uses when items can't be accounted for.

Ability Score
Before racial bonus
After Racial Bonus

Str
16
16

Dex
10
10

Con
12
14

Int
14
10

Wis
8
8

Cha
15
11

An alternative set of ability scores an at least a +4 charisma boosting item can acquired before 8th level.

Ability Score
Before racial bonus
After Racial Bonus

Str
16
16

Dex
14
10

Con
14
16

Int
13
9

Wis
8
8

Cha
11
7

As this makes use of the maneuver variant of Wyrm of War, I will be working with the following assumptions.
Sorcerer levels and classes that progress sorcerer casting count as a initiator class for the purpose of determining the initiator level of what I will refer to as Sorcerer Maneuvers.
Sorcerer maneuvers do not benefit from the maneuver progression initiator prestige classes for the purposes of simplicity.
A spell slot sacrificed for a Stance does not grant a maneuver readied.
A spell slot sacrificed for a Sorcerer maneuver known does grant one Sorcerer maneuver readied.
Age cursing will not be used, but will be touched upon briefly on level 20.
Spell slots may only be sacrificed during the leveling process.

The Idiot Savant of Tiger Claw

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

4th
Dragon HD 3/LA+1
+3
+3
+3
+3
Concentration +6, Intimidate, +6, Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
Flyby Attack, Combat Casting
Breath Weapon(1d6 cold), Icewalking, immunity to cold, Wyrm of War, vulnerability to fire

5th
Fighter 1
+4
+5
+3
+3
Concentration +6, Intimidate, +6, Jump +2 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
(B)Power Attack

6th
Sorcerer 1
+4
+5
+3
+5
Concentration +8, Intimidate, +6, Jump +2 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
Divine Companion

7th
Warblade 1
+5
+7
+3
+5
Concentration +9, Intimidate, +6, Jump +5 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
Adaptive Style
Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude

8th
Abjurant Champion 1
+6
+7
+3
+7
Concentration +10, Intimidate, +6, Jump +6 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration

9th
Abjurant Champion 2
+7
+7
+3
+8
Concentration +11, Intimidate, +6, Jump +7 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
Swift Abjuration

10th
Abjurant Champion 3
+8
+8
+4
+8
Concentration +12, Intimidate, +6, Jump +8 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
Versatile Spellcaster
-

11th
Abjurant Champion 4
+9
+8
+4
+9
Concentration +13, Intimidate, +6, Jump +9 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
Arcane Boost

12th
Abjurant Champion 5
+10
+8
+4
+9
Concentration +14, Intimidate, +6, Jump +10 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
Martial Arcanist

13th
Jade Phoenix Mage 1
+11
+10
+4
+9
Concentration +15, Intimidate, +6, Jump +11 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
Improved Flight
Arcane Wrath, Rite of Walking

14th
Jade Phoenix Mage 2
+12
+11
+4
+9
Concentration +16, Intimidate, +6, Jump +12 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
Mystic Phoenix Stance

15th
Jade Phoenix Mage 3
+13
+11
+5
+10
Concentration +17, Intimidate, +6, Jump +13 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
-

16th
Jade Phoenix Mage 4
+14
+12
+5
+10
Concentration +18, Intimidate, +6, Jump +14 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
Heighten Spell
Empowering Strike

17th
Jade Phoenix Mage 5
+15
+12
+5
+10
Concentration +19, Intimidate, +6, Jump +15 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
-

18th
Jade Phoenix Mage 6
+16
+13
+6
+11
Concentration +20, Intimidate, +6, Jump +16 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
Firebird Stance, Jade Phoenix Master

19th
Jade Phoenix Mage 7
+17
+13
+6
+11
Concentration +21, Intimidate, +6, Jump +17 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
Minor Shapeshift
-

20th
Jade Phoenix Mage 8
+18
+14
+6
+11
Concentration +22, Intimidate, +6, Jump +18 Search +6, Spot +6, Sense Motive +6, UMD +6
-
Quickening Strike

Format: Remaining Spell Slots(Unmodified+bonus spells(if any))/Spells Known
[/B]
Notes: Due to how the maneuver variant of how Wyrm of War works, I've made notes where spell slots are given up. Bonus spells from only his base intelligence are accounted for.

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
Spells Gained

6th
5/4
1(3+1)/2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Detect Magic, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Mage Armor, Shield

7th
5/4
1(3+1)/2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
6/5
1(4+1)/2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Mending

9th
6/5
2(5+1)/3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Nerveskitter

10th
6/6
3(6+1)/3
1(3)/1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Magehand, Wraithstrike

11th
6/6
3((6+1)/4
2(4)/2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Wall of Smoke, Wings of Cover

12th
6/7
3((6+1)/4
3(5)/2
1(3)/1
-
-
-
-
-
-
Caltrops, Haste

13th
6/7
3((6+1)/4
3(5)/2
1(3)/1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
6/7
3((6+1)/5
4(6)/3
1(4)/2
-
-
-
-
-
-
Orb of Acid, Lesser, Daggerspell Stance, Ferocity of Sanguine Rage

15th
6/8
3((6+1)/5
4(6)/3
1(5)/2
1(3)/1
-
-
-
-
-
Sonic Snap, Mirror Image, Greater

16th
6/8
3((6+1)/5
4(6)/4
2(6)/3
2(4)/2
-
-
-
-
-
Mirror Image, Chain Missile, Antidragon Aura

17th
6/9
3((6+1)/5
4(6)/4
2(6)/3
3(5)/2
1(3)/1
-
-
-
-
Stick, Contingent Energy Resistance

18th
6/9
3((6+1)/5
4(6)/5
2(6)/4
4(6)/3
2(4)/2
-
-
-
-
Heroics, Telepathic Bond, Shadow Conjuration, Draconic Polymorph

19th
6/9
3((6+1)/5
4(6)/5
2(6)/4
4(6)/3
3(5)/2
1(3)/1
-
-
-
Spectral Touch

20th
6/9
3((6+1)/5
4(6)/5
2(6)/4
4(6)/4
4(6)/3
2(4)/2
-
-
-
Heart of Earth, Shadow evocation, Contingency

Sorcerer Maneuvers
Note that specific maneuvers and stances aren't listen as he possesses all Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances up to 6th level.

Level
Ilvl
Known
Readied
Stances

1st
.5
-
-
-

2nd
1
-
-
-

3rd
1.5
-
-
-

4th
1.5
-
-
-

5th
2
-
-
-

6th
3
1
1
2

7th
3.5
1
1
2

8th
4.5
2
2
2

9th
5.5
2
2
2

10th
6.5
4
4
2

11th
7.5
4
4
2

12th
8.5
4
4
4

13th
8.5
4
4
4

14th
9.5
5
5
4

15th
10.5
8
8
4

16th
11.5
8
8
4

17th
12.5
10
10
4

18th
13.5
10
10
4

19th
14.5
12
12
4

20th
15.5
12
12
4

Warblade Maneuvers

Level
Ilvl
Known
Readied
Stances
Gained

7th
3.5
+5
+3
+1
Leading the Attack, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind, Stone Bones, Punishing Stance

8th
4.5
-
-
-
-

9th
5
-
-
-
-

10th
5.5
-
-
-
-

11th
6
-
-
-
-

12th
6.5
-
-
-
-

13th
7.5
+1
-
-
Foehammer

14th
8.5
-
-
-
-

15th
9.5
+1
+1
-
Radiant Charge

16th
10.5
-
-
-
-

17th
11.5
+1
-
+1
Rallying Strike, Aura of Triumph

18th
12.5
-
+1
-
-

19th
13.5
+1
-
-
Castigating Strike

20th
14.5
-
-
-

This is about where I say the sweet spot for starting would be as it best would represent him being fresh out of training. He has his beginning maneuvers that should carry him through until he gains more sorcerer levels. His flight means he can dip in and out of danger as he pleases thanks for flyby attack. In the case that he can't his full attacks can dish out some decent damage thanks to power attack and the size bonus to attack rolls.
Around here he really picks up steam thanks to 2nd level Tiger Claw maneuvers and now has the ability to burn away unneeded spell slots in a pinch to deal out more punishment as needed.
After his master awakening him as a Jade Phoenix Mage, he's mostly the same as before, but now has gotten some maneuver progression from Jade Phoenix Mage, a much needed stance, and more Tiger Claw maneuver than what should be reasonable. Here they really take the forefront and Empowering Strike lets him dish out damage Chain Missiles if something is truly difficult to hit or if he has to thin crowds quickly.
This one is really only here as something to add as him actually advancing age categories any sooner would be detriment to his progression up until Adult when his age advancement would start providing caster levels. Anyway, Age Cursing at this point would be ideal to quickly hit epic levels and quickly acquire his next feat which I believe would be an epic feat.
Due to his personality, he needs time to age and mature before he would consider taking ranks in knowledge skills. IF that does happen, he'd eventually realize the importance of what his master was trying to impart and immediately grab ranks in Martial Lore skill points permitting.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-07, 09:47 AM

Athear, The Lightkeeper of Heironeous.

https://i.ibb.co/v3XNDW5/7187048-350.png

Image courtesy of Boaaekin of the flight rising forums

Athear, a young bronze dragon was shivering. Not from the cold, though. It was finally time for the long-awaitied tournament of proving. You could almost taste the aspiration and worry of the competitors. The Rag-tag bunch, hailing from all walk of life had come here for one reason: to fight and hopefully gain heironeous favor. They all had their own reasons for coming. Some wanted fame, and would fail at the first hurdle. Others had more noble goals, and would gain favor if they showed the valor to see their convictions through. He desperately wanted to take part, having been raised many stories of knights and castle from his adoptive father, an retired paladin of the church. So predictably, he snuck into to of the tents for a look. However, he saw an elf weeping like a willow. "Knights shouldn't cry alone" he told the boy "Why are you sad?" "They *SOB* made me *SOB* fight... said *SOB* That i was *SOB* weak... *SOB*" "Can... i take your place? "Like i *SOB* care..." Then, an endless barrage of sobs. He fought valiantly with tooth and claw... And lost in the first round. However he did not expect to be called to the holy pavillon. "Young child" The bishop solellemly stated "You have done a great deed today. You championed a innocent cause with valor and passion. Do you wish to become a knight of Heironeous?" Athear eyes simply lit up. He was a knight!

Stats: (Racial Mods Have Been Applied)
16 STR
14 DEX
16 CON
12 INT
16 WIS
18 CHA
Put 1 ASI into CHA, an all others into STR

Skills have been given shorthand to prevent sins against good table design.
Con= Concentration Dis= Disguise Nlg= Knowledge ((R)= Religion, N+R= Nobility and Royalty)
Itim= Intimidate Spc= Spellcraft Sw= Swimming Sur= Survival

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

6th
Lightkeeper (Bronze)
+6/1
+6
+5
+7
Con 4 Dis 9 Nlg (R) 4 Nlg (N+R)1 Itim 4 Spc 4 Sw 9 Sur 9
Flyby Attack, Extra Turning, Multiattack
Immunity to electricity, water breathing, speak with animals

7th
Fighter 1
+7/2
+8
+5
+7
Itim 7
Weapon Focus (Longsword)
-

8th
Divine Crusader (War)
+7/2
+10
+5
+9
Nlg(R)7
-
Domain Magic (War), War Domain

9th
Ordained Champion
+8/3
+12
+5
+11
Con 7
Practised Spellcaster, Law Devotion
Law Domain

10th
OC 2
+9/4
+13
+5
+12
Itim 10
Diehard
Domain Magic 2, Smite

11th
OC 3
+10/5
+13
+6
+12
Nlg (R) 10
-
Domain Magic 3 Channel Spell, Divine Bulwark

12th
OC 4
+11/6/1
+14
+6
+13
Nlg (R) 13
Rapidstrike (Claws)
Fist Of the Gods

13th
OC5
+12/7/2
+14
+6
+13
Itim 10
-
Holy Warrior(OC) War Caster, Domain Magic 4

14th
Swift Wing 1
+12/7/2
+16
+8
+13
Spc 12
-
Dragon Domain, Dragon Affinity (Bronze)

15th
Contemplative
+12/7/2
+16
+8
+15
Spc 15
Holy Warrior (Feat)
Glory Domain, Domain Magic 5

16th
DC 2 (War)
+13/8/3
+17
+8
+16
Con 10
-
Domain Magic 6

17th
DC 3 (war)
+14/9/4
+17
+9
+16
Con 13
-
Domain Magic 7

18th
DC 4 (war)
+15/10/5
+18
+9
+17
Itim 13
Improved Rapidstrike (Claws)
Domain Magic 8, Resistance To Acid 5

19th
DC 5 (war)
+15/10/5
+18
+9
+17
Con 16
Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
Domain Magic 9

20th
DC 6 (war)
+16/11/6/1
+19
+10
+18
Itim 16
-
Domain Magic 10

Spells per Day/Spells Known
Bonus spells for 18/19 have been added to the table for your convenience.

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
2
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
3
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-

14th
3
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-

15th
4
3
3
2
-
-
-
-
-

16th
4
4
3
3
1
-
-
-
-

17th
4
4
4
3
2
1
-
-
-

18th
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
-
-

19th
4
4
4
4
3
2
2
1
-

20th
4
4
4
4
3
3
2
2
1

Okay, so we can use any monster? Just as long as I use at least one level of Fighter/Thief/Cleric/Wizard? Alright, lightseeker bronze dragon paladin here we go! We start with 6 levels of bronze dragon because HD equalling levels is a dumb. But you get crazy stat boosts (+2/+0/+2/+4+/4+, WTH!?) and a gallizion skill points. I grab one level of Fighter for to meet the requirements for the Divine Crusader (CD) which gives us 9th level spells in 10 spells levels. And it's gives us 8HD and 3/4 BAB. Gravy. For this builds skills, I'm going with Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion) and Spellcraft, to help with casting and demoralizing.
HD: 6D12+1D10+1D8+24
Full Attack Power: 2D6 and 1D4 (Sword) 1D6 and 1D4 (No Sword)

Athear was exhausted. After he had got home from the torney and shown his father the letter from the church, he'd been put a through a grueling routine of combat training and studying divine magic which he assumed was to discourage him from ever putting himself in danger again. "Good job. I have a gift, my son" "More training?" he asked dispassionately. "No, a sword" But he had used one before, and it had been unbearably clumsy to use "Ahh, but you see, this one is special. The smith was advertising weapons made for druids who like to wild shape. Thought it'd be perfect for you. Happy Nameday." Athear grasped it in his mouth and gave it a swing... It perfectly followed his swings, like a new limb!

ECL 12: Athear has just gotten a Mouth Bite Longsword (LoM) for his nameday, letting use our full BAB in combat. That training and study paid off too, as he has rapidstrike for an extra claw attack. He also has DIVINE POWER, which is quite possibly the best buff any frontliner can have. But! His most awesome new toy is the Fist of the Gods (Ordained Champion 4)+ Law Devotion combo. Fist of the Gods lets him turn spell slots into an UNTYPED DAMAGE BONUS equal to the spell's level on melee damage rolls. Law Devotion lets do the same with turn undead. (His Sovereign Archetype (DofE) , Lightkeeper, lets him get turn undead by getting the extra turning feat) He has five attacks (if the DM is feeling nice) meaning he gets a total of 40 damage from this.
HD 6D12+1D10+5D8+36
Full Attack Power 3D6+3+5 and 2D4+3+5 (Sword) 1D6+3+5 and 2D4+3+5 (No Sword)

"Why are we climbing this stupid mountain, father?" "Well, there's a dragon who lives by the lake at the top" A lake at the top? Well that would explain the impenetrable veil of fog they were trudging through. But not why it stank of lemons... Then unceremoniously, the fog cleared. "Right. Better get there before it come- "Have you heard of Sending, you pious buffoon!?" "Well maybe if you weren't hiding in a Fog Cloud halfway up a mountain, my letter would have got through!" "Noach, this is Athear. Athear, this is Noach. So, I've been hoping to introduce Athear to you since I found him on that battlefield, and now he's finally fit and old enough to make the trip." There were other good dragons... Athear cried. Not tears of sadness though, but tears of joy.

ECL 15: The sweet spot. All Athear's training pays off with... SEVENTEEN BONUS DAMAGE.(Not including his strength mod, as that can vary) "That's not very go- PER ATTACK!!! But how, you ask? Well he gets a 7+ bonus twice per from Law Devotion, a 4+ from keeping a level 4 spell stocked, and a +3 from burning 3rd level slots for fist of the gods. The best part? All these bonus scale with our level or spell slots! In other news, we dip into Swift Wing (DM) and Contemplative (CD) for the Dragon and Glory Domains respectively. This because it is impossible to have enough spells, and we need more. A lot more. Also, the high level war spells are... underwhelming, to say the least
HD:6D12+D10+7D8+1D6+45
Full Attack Power: 3D6+3+4+7 and 2D4+3+4+7 (Sword)
1D6+3+4+7 and 2D4+3+4+7 (No Sword)

The young dragon lying on on top of the chair handed over the flagon of ale to keep his elf friend's river of ale going, and custom demanded begun his story. "Oh us? So my name's Athear, the drunken fool's Niv'ash, *Incomprehensible drow swearing* "The orc's Thogar... "Many thanks to you Athear" and the half-elf is Sliver "...can't wait.." "So we all meet in the inn, clean up the sewers... "... blasted kobolds..." "deal with Sliver being edgy "Those childish speeches still trouble me to this day..." "You know usual 'venture stuff... "The sun-damned hag, you lizard!" "So there's a water hag in the sewers..." The whole inn looked unamused "Yeah ri- Sliver shot a glare that could give a man a shave "She told us that one of the big dwarven clans wanted the competition out of the way, at any cost "And the dastards got the spider mother to help. Morons..."

ECL 20: Athear just got back from an adventure, so let's check out what he can do now. His bonus stacking shenanigans now give us a +32 damage bonus to each attack. His attacks get an upgrade too- His sword has an extra attack and gets a +2 damage bonus thanks to weapon specialization. He can also make 2 more attacks with his claws because of improved rapidstrike. Lastly we get 9th level spells from the war, glory and dragon domains- although we will mostly be using the high level spell slots for the damage bonuses. Holy Weapon (Glory) Stoneskin (Dragon), and Greater Magic Fang (Dragon) are nice, however.
HD 6D12+1D10+12D8+1D6+60
Full Attack Power: 4D6+8+9+7+2 and 4D4+8+9+7 (Sword)
1D6+8+9+7 and 4D4+8+9+7 (No Sword)

Holy Symbol: lets Athear cast divine magic
Saddle Bags (preferably Holding): For storing all your lovely loot. And supplies.
Full Plate Barding: Gives Athear 19AC. Sometimes simple is best.
Mouthpick Longsword: Allows Athear to make four attacks with his BAB, and this build really likes having more attacks.

Notes:
This build assumes that claw attacks are weapon attacks. Please tank my elegance if i'm wrong.

Having a Mouthpick Longsword greatly increases the build's damage, so i have calculated the build Full Attacks twice- once with the sword and once without.

I've never played 3.x D&D, but thanks to all the rulebooks that have been saved online by community members i can take part. Thank you all for this.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-07, 09:48 AM

Antunia, Chaotic Good Lillend

30-point point-buy starting stats:
Str 15
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 12

Lillend total racial ability score adjustments: +10 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha

Final ability scores before class levels (ECL 9, 7 HD + 2LA):
Str 25 (+7 Modifier)
Dex 20 (+5 Modifier)
Con 18 (+4 Modifier)
Int 16 (+3 Modifier)
Wis 16 (+3 Modifier)
Cha 20 (+5 Modifier)

Ability Score Increases trigger off hit dice, so ECL 10, 14, and 18. ECL 10 adds to Strength, 14 and 18 add to Constitution. Final ability scores at ECL 20:
STR 26 (+8)
DEX 20 (+5)
CON 20 (+5)
INT 16 (+3)
WIS 16 (+3)
CHA 20 (+5)

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Outsider 1
+1
+2
+2
+2
11 x 4 = 44 skill points. Appraise 4, Concentration 4, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Listen 4, Perform (Dance) 4, Perform (Sing) 4, Survival 4, Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
Monkey Grip
Large size, 10ft reach, Land speed 20 ft, Fly speed 70 ft (Average), Natural Armor +5, Fire Resistance 10, Tail Slap 2d6+0.5*STRmod, Improved Grab, Constrict 2d6+STRmod, Outsider Proficiencies (All simple, martial, and natural weapons), Racial Survival bonus +4, Poison Immunity, Outsider type, Subtypes: Good, Chaotic, Extraplanar [extraplanar on any plane except the Heroic Domains of Ysgard], Spell-like Abilities 3/day - Darkness, Hallucinatory Terrain, Knock, Light, 1/day - Charm Person, Speak with Animals, Speak with Plants CL = Effective Bard level +4

2nd
Outsider 2
+2
+3
+3
+3
Appraise 5, Concentration 5, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 5, Knowledge (Arcana) 5, Listen 5, Perform (Dance) 5, Perform (Sing) 5, Profession (Mercenary) 2, Survival 5, Spellcraft 5, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
Bard Abilities = RHD-1: Bardic Music, Bardic Spellcasting

3rd
Outsider 3
+3
+3
+3
+3
Appraise 6, Concentration 6, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 6, Listen 6, Perform (Dance) 6, Perform (Sing) 6, Profession (Mercenary) 4, Survival 6, Spellcraft 6, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
Martial Study: Vanguard Strike
N/A

4th
Outsider 4
+4
+4
+4
+4
Appraise 7, Concentration 7, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 7, Knowledge (Arcana) 7, Listen 7, Perform (Dance) 7, Perform (Sing) 7, Profession (Mercenary) 6, Survival 7, Spellcraft 7, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
N/A

5th
Outsider 5
+5
+4
+4
+4
Appraise 8, Concentration 8, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 8, Knowledge (Arcana) 8, Listen 8, Perform (Dance) 8, Perform (Sing) 8, Profession (Mercenary) 8, Survival 8, Spellcraft 8, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
N/A

6th
Outsider 6
+6/+1
+5
+5
+5
Appraise 8, Concentration 8, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 8, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Listen 8, Perform (Dance) 9, Perform (Sing) 9, Profession (Mercenary) 8, Survival 8, Spellcraft 8, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
Martial Study: Foehammer
N/A

7th
Outsider 7
+7/+2
+5
+5
+5
Appraise 9, Concentration 9, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 9, Intimidate 9, Knowledge (Arcana) 10, Listen 9, Perform (Dance) 10, Perform (Sing) 10, Profession (Mercenary) 9, Survival 9, Spellcraft 9, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
N/A

8th
LA +1
+7/+2
+5
+5
+5
Appraise 9, Concentration 9, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 9, Intimidate 9, Knowledge (Arcana) 10, Listen 9, Perform (Dance) 10, Perform (Sing) 10, Profession (Mercenary) 9, Survival 9, Spellcraft 9, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
n/a
N/A

9th
LA +2
+7/+2
+5
+5
+5
Appraise 9, Concentration 9, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 9, Intimidate 9, Knowledge (Arcana) 10, Listen 9, Perform (Dance) 10, Perform (Sing) 10, Profession (Mercenary) 9, Survival 9, Spellcraft 9, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
n/a
N/A

10th
Fighter 1
+8/+2
+7
+5
+5
Appraise 9, Concentration 9, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 10, Intimidate 9, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Listen 9, Perform (Dance) 11, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 9, Survival 9, Spellcraft 10, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
Martial Stance: Martial Spirit (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Armor and Shield proficiency. Light, Medium, and Heavy armors, all shields (including Tower shields)

11th
Jade Phoenix Mage 1
+9/+4
+9
+5
+5
Appraise 9, Concentration 10, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 10, Intimidate 10, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Listen 10, Perform (Dance) 12, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 9, Survival 9, Spellcraft 11, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Arcane Wrath, Rite of Waking

12th
Jade Phoenix Mage 2
+10/+5
+10
+5
+5
Appraise 9, Concentration 11, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 11, Intimidate 11, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Listen 10, Perform (Dance) 13, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 9, Survival 9, Spellcraft 12, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
Mystic Phoenix Stance, +1 Arcane Spellcasting (Bard 7)

13th
Jade Phoenix Mage 3
+11/+6/+1
+10
+6
+6
Appraise 9, Concentration 12, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 11, Intimidate 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Listen 10, Perform (Dance) 14, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 9, Survival 10, Spellcraft 13, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
+1 Arcane Spellcasting (Bard 8)

14th
Jade Phoenix Mage 4
+12/+7/+2
+11
+6
+6
Appraise 10, Concentration 13, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 12, Intimidate 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Listen 10, Perform (Dance) 15, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 10, Survival 10, Spellcraft 13, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
Snowflake Wardance
Empower Strike, +1 Arcane Spellcasting (Bard 9)

15th
Jade Phoenix Mage 5
+13/+8/+3
+11
+7
+7
Appraise 10, Concentration 14, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 13, Intimidate 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Listen 11, Perform (Dance) 16, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 10, Survival 10, Spellcraft 14, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
+1 Arcane Spellcasting (Bard 10)

16th
Jade Phoenix Mage 6
+14/+9/+4
+12
+8
+8
Appraise 10, Concentration 15, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 14, Intimidate 13, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Listen 11, Perform (Dance) 17, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 10, Survival 10, Spellcraft 15, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
Firebird Stance, Jade Phoenix Master

17th
Jade Phoenix Mage 7
+15/+10/+5
+12
+8
+8
Appraise 10, Concentration 16, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 15, Intimidate 13, Knowledge (Arcana) 12, Listen 11, Perform (Dance) 18, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 10, Survival 10, Spellcraft 16, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
Ancestral Relic [Book of Exalted Deeds]: Huge Masterwork Aurorum Bastard Sword
+1 Arcane Spellcasting (Bard 11)

18th
Jade Phoenix Mage 8
+16/+11/+6/+1
+13
+8
+8
Appraise 10, Concentration 17, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 16, Intimidate 13, Knowledge (Arcana) 12, Listen 12, Perform (Dance) 19, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 10, Survival 10, Spellcraft 17, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
Quickening Strike, +1 Arcane Spellcasting (Bard 12)

19th
Jade Phoenix Mage 9
+17/+12/+7/+2
+13
+9
+9
Appraise 10, Concentration 18, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 17, Intimidate 13, Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Listen 12, Perform (Dance) 20, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 10, Survival 10, Spellcraft 18, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
N/A
+1 Arcane Spellcasting (Bard 13)

20th
Jade Phoenix Mage 10
+18/+13/+8/+3
+14
+9
+9
Appraise 10, Concentration 19, Craft (Bowyer/Fletcher) 18, Intimidate 13, Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Listen 13, Perform (Dance) 21, Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Mercenary) 10, Survival 10, Spellcraft 19, Knowledge (History) 2 {cc}, Knowledge (Religion) 2 {cc}
Hover
Emerald Immolation, +1 Arcane Spellcasting (Bard 14)

Well, I took a feat that guarantees me ONE piece of gear, so I might as well go into an actual breakdown of what she would be looking for and why.
Character Wealth by Level table indicates that a level 10 character (ECL 10 is fighter 1, first level in which Antunia is elligible to play) should start with 49,000 gold worth of equipment.

Elven Chain is generally seen as one of the best armors available to a person with Bard spellcasting due to counting as light armor. Baseline price is 4150 gold, but large-sized characters must pay double, so 8450 in total for a suit of Large, Masterwork Elven Chain.

You should carry at least one backup Ranged weapon just in case, even though archery tends to be underwhelming without heavy feat investment. Antunia's backup weapon of choice is a Huge Serren-wood Elvencraft [RotW +300GP] Mighty +8 Composite Longbow [+800GP for the Mighty +8]. The SRD and PHB don't give us a specified way to determine the base price of a huge weapon of this type, but a Large one is twice the price of a Medium, so one could assume that the total cost for materials and special crafting is only doubled since Small and Medium are the same price and we can therefore make the assumption that prices change in a two-size-category-step system, making this weapon cost 10200GP, leaving her with 30350GP to spend. The Elvencraft entry states that the melee and ranged attack capacities are enchanted separately, which is how the two ends of a double weapon usually function magically (which would technically make this a TRIPLE weapon since the bow as a ranged weapon AND each head of the quarterstaff would need their own enchantment pools...) so that's an extra 900 gold to make the ranged and both ends of the quarterstaff masterwork weapons, bringing the total available gold down to 29450GP.
Bow Damage: 3d8+8
Quarterstaff: 2d6+8 either end

Antunia's primary melee weapon is her family's Ancestral Blade: A masterwork huge-sized aurorum bastard sword named Curtain Call. As above we will make the assumption that Large and Huge cost the same amount the same way that Small and Medium cost the same amount. We therefore double both the base and material price to 8370 after Masterwork is added in. This leaves her with 21080GP. Aurorum is a special material that allows a sundered weapon to reassemble itself by bringing the broken pieces together as a full-round action.
'Curtain Call' (Huge Bastard Sword) Damage: 3d8+15 if two-handed (See next paragraph), 3d8+10 in one hand with exotic proficiency (Again, see next paagraph).

The next item will be the last of Antunia's starting kit, and this is a Belt of Giant Strength +4, 16000GP. That brings Antunia down to 5080GP and sets her effective strength to 30 for a +10 bonus, but we will not be refactoring her Mighty Composite Longbow for this. Yes, that is technically a lack of optimization and a slight loss in starting power, but it also means she can still use her bow if the belt is disenchanted/disjunctioned, inside an antimagic field, or stolen. I feel it is simply better for her to not crank up the one weapon that can be made with specific stat requirements to reflect a non-permanent increase in said stat, and she's smart enough to come to that same conclusion herself.

5080 leftover gold is enough to do a little enchanting! Give her ancestral blade a +1 enchantment (2000GP) and her elven chain a +1 for 1000GP, leaving her with 2080 gold for mundane equipment like a backpack and clothes, food, etcetera. This gives us her level 10 snapshot.

STR 26 (+8) +4 BoGS = 30 (+10)
DEX 20 (+5)
CON 18 (+4)
INT 16 (+3)
WIS 16 (+3)
CHA 20 (+5)
HD: 7d8+1d10 = 8
HP: 12+avg6d8+24+avg1d10+4 = 76
AC: 24 (-1 Size, +5 Elven Chain, +4 Dex, +5 Natural, +1 Armor Enchantment), FF: 20, Touch: 13
Base Attack: +8
Grapple: +22
Full Attack: Bastard sword (Curtain Call) +16/+11 melee (3d8+15/19-20) and Tail Slap +12 melee (2d6+5) or MC Elvencraft Longbow +12/+7 ranged (3d8+8) or +18/+13 melee (2d6+8) and Tail Slap +12 melee (2d6+5)
Feats: Martial Study: (Vanguard Strike, Foehammer), Martial Stance: Martial Spirit, Monkey Grip

With a decent dexterity bonus, Antunia can safely attack from range while waiting for enemies to close in, and she can ensure that they do close in specifically with her by using Mindless Rage. Despite her size, she has a decent AC and a reliable health pool. Beyond that, her existing feats give her a martial stance she can take up that means she will be healing herself for small amounts, or sending that healing to an ally in need, guaranteed every round with a simple grapple check through Martial Spirit and Constrict. 2HP at minimum, 6HP total possible. It's not a ton, but any amount of healing is enough to stabilize someone. Even without using Bardic Music or Spellcasting, she's still able to support her party from the front-line combat position as a Fighter should be expected to. Yes, I left out the attack calculations for using the Elvencraft Longbow as a double weapon in the attack block line intentionally.

STR 26 (+8) +4 BoGS = 30 (+10)
DEX 20 (+5)
CON 19 (+4)
INT 16 (+3)
WIS 16 (+3)
CHA 20 (+5)
HD: 7d8+1d10+5d6 =13
HP: 12+avg6d8+24+avg1d10+4+avg5d6+20 = 120
AC: 24 (-1 Size, +5 Elven Chain, +4 Dex, +5 Natural, +1 Armor Enchantment), FF: 20, Touch: 13
Base Attack: +13
Grapple: +27
Full Attack: Bastard sword (Curtain Call) +21/+16/+11 (+26/+21/+16 in Wardance) melee (3d8+10/19-20) and Tail Slap +12 melee (2d6+5) or MC Elvencraft Longbow +15/+10/+5 ranged (3d8+8) or +21/+16/+11 melee (2d6+8) and Tail Slap +12 melee (2d6+5)
Feats: Martial Study: (Vanguard Strike, Foehammer), Martial Stance: Martial Spirit, Monkey Grip, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Snowflake Wardance

Here's the first real sweet spot with Exotic Weapon Proficiency turning Curtain Call into a valid one-handed weapon for use with Snowflake Wardance and basically giving Antunia a huge boost to accuracy by allowing her to add her charisma modifier on top of her strength modifier. Even with only six uses of Bardic Music to burn per day to power it, at level fifteen she's boasting sixteen ranks of Perform (Dance) and that means sixteen rounds of more accurate attack rolls. Most combats don't last that long. Yes, she's getting a bit easier to hit herself, but that's only because she hasn't been diligently upgrading her magic armor to be better protection than it is right now. At this point she's hit her stride with Maneuvers, Stances, and Spells, being able to set up some truly nasty combos even without Combat Reflexes to take advantage of her natural reach for attacks of opportunity. Holocaust Cloak Stance has her dealing constant fire damage to her Mindless Rage target unless she's staying in Martial Spirit stance to sustain her health, and she always has Divine Surge readied in case a huge hard target makes itself known so she can unload with an 11d8+10 damage attack, something that easily has the potential to threaten Death From Massive Damage on that foe.

With a starting value of 10370, Curtain Call couldn't be turned into an Ancestral Relic through this feat before character level 8 because as a +1 Huge Aurorum Bastard Sword it is already simply too valuable. However, it works to Antunia's favor that she doesn't pick up the feat to draw out the true power of her blade until she's truly ready to bring it to bear on her foes. Level 17 gives it a maximum value of 170,000 gold, which is well within the means of the expected wealth by level table's 340,000.

Interestingly, an Ancestral Relic as an example of a specific type of item created by a feat is able to bypass the general rule that a magic weapon can only be worth up to 200,000 gold not counting materials, masterwork, and base price, because an Ancestral Relic weapon can be worth up to 380,000 at level 20...which would mean an Ancestral Relic weapon could have an effective +bonus total of up to +13 if the Epic Level Handbook hadn't decided that a weapon going from effectively +10 with enhancements to effectively +11 meant jumping from 200,000 to 2,000,000.

With this established specific rule trumping the general constraints, Antunia's first Ancestral Relic enhancement of Curtain Call at level 17 is to raise the + Enhancement bonus to 5 (50,000) and then to add Energy Aura ([Magic Item Compendium]+2 bonus equivalent, 98,000 value for a +7-equivalent weapon per DMG table on page 222) and Prismatic Burst [MIC] for its flat +30,000 cost for a value of 128,000 gold. A varying damage-type enhancement for versatility and an on-crit that triggers even on things not normally subject to critical hits that duplicates a level 7 spell makes Curtain Call's wielder a force to be reckoned with even with critical hits being somewhat rare.

Level 20 is where we sprinkle on the cheese though, with the rule that specific trumps general shining bright. Antunia uses her remaining Ancestral Relic Feat Budget to add on Ethereal Reaver ([MIC] +3, +10 total, 238,370/380,000), Aquatic ([MIC] +2000, 240,370/380,000), Everbright ([MIC] +2000, 242,370/380,000), Hideaway ([MIC] +2000, 244,370/380,000), Shadowstrike ([MIC] +5000, 249,370/380,000), Slow Burst ([MIC] +5000, 254,370/380,000), and Vanishing ([MIC] +8000, 262,370/380,000). Curtain Call falls well short of making maximum possible use of the budget that Ancestral Relic as a feat allows without using interpretations of the rules not explicitly enumerated in the text of the feat. The feat does not, for example, state that one cannot add the effects of various wondrous items such as a cloak of charisma onto an ancestral relic of a different type, but such an expansive interpretation of a rule that is already being generous in allowing one to exceed the 'maximum value' of a weapon might just be a bit greedy.

What Antunia ends up with is a +5 Energy Aura (+1d6 damage of any one of Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire damage types at a time on-demand) Ethereal Reaver (As ghost touch and can see invisible creatures) that casts Prismatic Spray on the creature hit on a confirmed critical hit even if that creature is not normally vulnerable to critical hits, slows on that same crit, allows a 1/day 60-foot teleport, allows a 1/day 5-foot reach extension against flat-footed AC, can be folded up into a small bundle and hidden away, can emit a blinding flash 2/day and is made immune to acid damage and rusting effects, and can freely be used underwater without suffering any penalties.

Over the course of her adventuring career, Antunia will tend to be conservative in her spending while making sure that she covers contingencies and maximizes her general utility. Speed is purchased as an armor enhancement so that she can choose to use haste on other party members. Quickness is added on so that she doesn't move like a complete turtle when forced into areas where she can't fly. Healing is applied so that she has a way to heal herself without sacrificing a spell slot when she needs it. Deepdweller adds waterbreathing and free conversation with any aquatic species that has a language. All of those don't take up precious +-enhancement slots. She eventually enhances her elven chain fully to +5, adds on Nimbleness (+1) to allow her full +5 Dexterity bonus through and eliminate the armor check penalty, Retaliation (+1) so that the increasingly-more-powerful blows that do manage to hit also hurt her attackers, and Ghost Touch (+3) so that pesky incorporeal touch attacks are no longer quite so unavoidable.

An Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Ring of Protection +5, and a Ring of Regeneration round out her protective trinkets, and while a Quiver of Ehlonna would be nice she doesn't need it since she can make her own arrows. A Cloak of Charisma would be nice, but is similarly not strictly needed. All-in-all, she doesn't really make full use of her wealth-by-level, and there are tons of little useful trinkets she could reasonably buy or find.

One item she might try to have from low levels is a wand or eternal wand of Mindless Rage for near-unlimited taunting effect. Perhaps even a Bracer of Wands or Wand Bracer loaded with them.

Her entire suite is built around making people come close to her and then brutally punishing them with her body, her weapons, and her other abilities, and having the capstone of Jade Phoenix Mage gives her a way to self-rez if she thinks her temporary sacrifice will win the battle. It's a gamble...but she's Chaotic.

Spells per Day/Spells Known

[B]Level
[B]0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
2/4
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
3/5
2/2
-
-
-
-
-

4th
3/6
3/3
-
-
-
-
-

5th
3/6
4/3
1/2
-
-
-
-

6th
3/6
5/4
2/3
-
-
-
-

7th
3/6
5/4
3/3
-
-
-
-

8th
3/6
5/4
3/3
-
-
-
-

9th
3/6
5/4
3/3
-
-
-
-

10th
3/6
5/4
3/3
-
-
-
-

11th
3/6
5/4
3/3
-
-
-
-

12th
3/6
5/4
3/4
1/2
-
-
-

13th
3/6
5/4
4/4
2/3
-
-
-

14th
3/6
5/4
4/4
3/3
-
-
-

15th
3/6
5/4
4/4
3/4
1/2
-
-

16th
3/6
5/4
4/4
3/4
1/2
-
-

17th
3/6
5/4
4/4
4/4
2/3
-
-

18th
3/6
5/4
4/4
4/4
3/3
-
-

19th
3/6
5/4
4/4
4/4
3/4
1/2
-

20th
4/6
5/4
4/4
4/4
4/4
2/3
-

Spells Known List:
Level 0=6: Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Mending, Message, Ghost Sound
Level 1=4: Grease, Comprehend Languages, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds
Level 2=4: Elation [BoED], Ice Darts [Frostburn], Glitterdust, Mindless Rage [Spell Compendium]
Level 3=4: Wounding Whispers [Spell Compendium], Dissonant Chord [Spell Compendium], Haste, Cure Serious Wounds
Level 4=4: Shout, Hold Monster, Dimension Door, Leomund's Secure Shelter
Level 5=3: Boreal Wind [Frostburn], Greater Heroism, Greater Dispel Magic

Martial Maneuvers:
Feat: Vanguard Strike
Feat: Foehammer
JPM 1: Burning Blade
JPM 3: Revitalizing Strike
JPM 5: Divine Surge
JPM 7: Fire Riposte
JPM 9: Castigating Strike
Martial Stances:
Feat: Martial Spirit
JPM 5: Holocaust Cloak

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-07, 09:49 AM

Nachni, Female Chaotic Neutral Troll Blender

Abilities Initial Race / Template Level 4 Level 8 Level 12 Level 16 Level 20
Str 14 26 N/A 26 26 27 28
Dex 12 16 N/A 17 18 18 18
Con 10 22 N/A 22 22 22 22
Int 18 14 N/A 14 14 14 14
Wis 8 6 N/A 6 6 6 6
Cha 10 6 N/A 6 6 6 6

Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Reflex Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
1st Giant 1 0 2 0 0 Listen 4, Spot 4, Perform (Dance) 2, Tumble 2 Combat Expertise Low-light vision, Darkvision 60', Simple and Martial weapon proficiencies, Large size, 10' reach, +5 Natural Armor, 2 Claws (1d6+strmod), Bite (1d6+0.5*strmod), Rend (2d6+1.5*strmod), Regeneration 5, Scent
2nd Giant 2 1 3 0 0 Listen 5, Spot 5, Perform (Dance) 2(.5), Tumble 2(.5)
3rd Giant 3 2 3 1 1 Listen 6, Spot 6, Perform (Dance) 3, Tumble 3 Expeditious Dodge
4th Giant 4 3 4 1 1 Listen 7, Spot 7, Perform (Dance) 3.5, Tumble 3.5
5th Giant 5 3 4 1 1 Listen 8, Spot 8, Perform (Dance) 4, Tumble 4
6th Giant 6 4 5 2 2 Listen 9, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 4.5, Tumble 4.5 Mobility
7th Fighter 1 5 7 2 2 Climb 1, Ride 1, Listen 9, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 5, Tumble 5 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Eagle's Claw) Bonus Feat
8th Fighter 2 6 8 2 2 Climb 2, Jump 1, Ride 1, Listen 9, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 5.5, Tumble 5.5 Weapon Focus (Eagle's Claw) Bonus Feat
9th Fighter 3 7 8 3 3 Climb 3, Jump 1, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Listen 9, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 6
10th Fighter 4 8 9 3 3 Climb 4, Jump 1, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 3, Listen 9, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 6 Weapon Specialization (Eagle's Claw) Bonus Feat
11th Dervish 1 9 9 5 5 Climb 4, Jump 1, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 3, Listen 9, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 12 Dervish AC bonus +1, Dervish Dance 1/day, movement mastery, slashing blades
12th Dervish 2 10 9 6 6 Climb 4, Jump 1, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 3, Listen 12, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 15 Two-Weapon Fighting Fast movement +5 ft. (enhancement typed, Extraordinary)
13th Dervish 3 11 10 6 6 Climb 10, Jump 1, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 3, Listen 12, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 15 Spring Attack (Dervish Bonus Feat) Dervish Dance 2/day
14th Dervish 4 12 10 7 7 Climb 10, Jump 1, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 9, Listen 12, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 15 Dance of death
15th Dervish 5 13 10 7 7 Climb 10, Jump 2, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 10, Listen 13, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 18 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting "Dervish AC bonus +2, Fast movement +10 ft., Dervish Dance 3/day"
16th Dervish 6 14 11 8 8 Climb 10, Jump 2, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 10, Listen 18, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 19 Improved reaction (+2 Initiative)
17th Dervish 7 15 11 8 8 Climb 10, Jump 5, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 10, Listen 20, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 20 Elaborate parry, Dervish Dance 4/day
18th Dervish 8 16 11 9 9 Climb 14, Jump 5, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 10, Listen 21, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 6, Tumble 21 Eagle's Fury Fast movement +15 ft.
19th Dervish 9 17 12 9 9 Climb 14, Jump 5, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 10, Listen 21, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 12, Tumble 21 Dervish AC bonus +3, Tireless dance, Dervish Dance 5/day
20th Dervish 10 18 12 10 10 Climb 14, Jump 5, Ride 1, Handle Animal 1, Swim 10, Listen 21, Spot 9, Perform (Dance) 18, Tumble 21 A thousand cuts

To avoid some redundancy, I'm avoiding a level 7 snapshot since they would be relatively similar in power. Here at level 10, assuming Nachni has been able to acquire the weapon she has taken feats to be able to use properly, she's starting to come into her own as an unusually smart troll. Her large size means she's able to deal more damage with a larger-than-normal weapon, and her reach means she's able to do so from a relatively safe distance, and gets an attack of opportunity if her target isn't careful about closing in or retreating from her onslaught. She's still learning about things at this stage, and has probably only just discovered the benefits of armor even for trolls. After all, even if you can heal from almost any injury a reduction in pain is still a reduction in pain.

Speaking of pain, her nearly-absurd racial strength modifier means that anything she hits is probably going to feel it and not want more of it...and she's going to hit reliably with a total +16 to her attack rolls at level 10. At this level she would be using only one Eagle's Claw and making use of her second claw and bite attacks as secondary attacks with natural weapons to maximize her efficiency in combat.

After five levels of Dervish, Nachni is beginning to enjoy the extra efficiency of a manufactured weapon in each hand. Her training is progressing rapidly: she's finally figured out how to really work an opponent over, raining down a squall of attacks while not really leaving herself open to attack, all while she dances around to flank. Two weapons means more attacks, more attacks means more chances to land a powerful critical blow with her mighty muscles, and the Eagle's Claw means those attacks have a much better chance of being critical hits.

Death of a Thousand Cuts, via...A Thousand Cuts. +24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9[/+19(Bite)/+19(Bite) If not in Dervish Dance] An 18-20-attack full attack chain in which Nachni need only move 9 spaces (45 feet) to satisfy Dervish Dance, but need not actually be using Dervish Dance to do. A thousand Cuts specifically states "When a dervish reaches 10th level, once per day she may double the number of melee attacks she makes while performing a full attack action." Eagle's Fury allows one extra attack at the highest modifier with an Eagle's Claw, which means two at the highest modifier with two Eagle's Claws, Two-weapon fighting with light weapons in both hands means only a -2 penalty (-4 total with Eagle's Fury) and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting gives a second off-hand attack, ALL of which get doubled by A Thousand Cuts. Sure, those +9's are less likely to hit, but it's still two chances to roll a 20 where there would normally only be one, and therefore auto-hit, AND since she need not be using Dervish Dance to utilize A Thousand Cuts she's able to get her bite natural weapon attacks doubled up as well after her iterative attack chain. She's an elite warrior capable of destroying entire regiments of soldiers on the battlefield, and still a force to be reckoned with against single opponents. Could she potentially do more damage using large scimitars? Yes, but then she couldn't use Eagle's Fury, and that means fewer chances to do only one more damage on average.

Nachni here is both insanely strong and insanely tough as well as being far smarter than your average troll, but she does show a typical troll's bluntness and inability to make wise decisions. She'll be so hyper-focused on one thing at a time that she's nearly oblivious to the world around her or how people react to her. At the same time, give her a target and she'll do her best to tear it apart one way or another.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-07, 09:50 AM

... move? think? live... no. not live. dead-thing. forgotten-thing. wretched-thing.

Father leave me. Discard me.

Hate father. Hate. Bite. Kill. Destroy. Consume. Hate.

... I... think. I grow. I learn.

Father's books. Mine now. Tiny scrap-thing, I. Lost. Wretched. Hated.

Fine. Can hate them too. Have books of magic. Wretch is so small, so easy to overlook. Magic doesn't care. Wretch's spells as big as anyone else's. Show them. Kill them.

... Light... burns. Humans burn Wretch with their light. Hurt Wretch with light of... Gods? Gods. Gods hate Wretch too, hm. Fine. Hate gods.

Show them too.

Wretch is small. Wretch is underestimated. Wretch is smarter than they think. Faster than they think. Fast enough, smart enough, to steal from them.

Take what I can. Give nothing back. Nothing but hate. And pain. And death.

Wretch
Tomb Mote Wizard 3/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Wizard 4
Tiny Undead
Str 6
Dex 18
Con -
Int 20
Wis 20
Cha 12
HD 3d12+6d4+2d8+7d4
Speed: 20ft, Swim 20ft
AC: 19 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 16, ff 15
Special Attacks: Disease, quickness
Special Qualities: DR 2/cold iron or magic, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits

Quickness (Su): A tomb mote is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.

Abilities
Initial
Race / Template
Level 4
Level 8
Level 12
Level 16
Level 18

Str
8
-2 = 6
6
6
6
6
6

Dex
12
+6 = 18
18
18
18
18
18

Con
8
----------
-
-
-
-
-

Int
18
+0 = 18
+1 = 19
+1 = 20
20
20
20

Wis
16
+2 = 18
18
18
+1 = 19
+1 = 20
20

Cha
8
+4 = 12
12
12
12
12
12

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Tomb Mote
0
0
0
2
Bluff 2, Diplomacy 2, Intimidate 2, K/Arcana 2, K/The Planes 2, K/Religion 2, Sense Motive 2, Spellcraft 2
Iron Will
Quickness, disease, DR 2/cold iron or magic, undead traits

2nd
Tomb Mote
1
0
0
3
Bluff 2.5, Diplomacy 2.5, Intimidate 2.5, K/Arcana 2.5, K/The Planes 2.5, K/Religion 2.5, Sense Motive 2.5, Spellcraft 2.5

3rd
Tomb Mote
1
1
1
3
Bluff 3, Diplomacy 3, Intimidate 3, K/Arcana 3, K/The Planes 3, K/Religion 3, Sense Motive 3, Spellcraft 3
Spell Focus (Evil)

4th
LA
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
LA
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
Wizard 1
1
1
1
5
Bluff 3.5(+0.5), Diplomacy 3.5(+0.5), Intimidate 3.5(+0.5), K/Arcana 3, K/The Planes 3, K/Religion 4(+1), Sense Motive 3.5(+0.5), Spellcraft 4(+1)
Scribe Scroll (B)
Summon Familiar

7th
Wizard 2
2
1
1
6
Bluff 4(+0.5), Diplomacy 4(+0.5), Intimidate 4(+0.5), K/Arcana 3, K/The Planes 3, K/Religion 5(+1), Sense Motive 4(+0.5), Spellcraft 5(+1)

8th
Wizard 3
2
2
2
6
Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 5(+2), K/The Planes 5(+2), K/Religion 6(+1), Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6(+1)
Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)

9th
Mindbender 1
2
4
2
8
Bluff 6(+2), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 5, K/The Planes 5, K/Religion 8(+2), Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 8(+2)

Telepathy

10th
Ur-Priest 1
2
4
2
10
Bluff 6, Concentration 6(+6), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 6(+1), K/The Planes 5, K/Religion 8, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 8

11th
Ur-Priest 2
3
4
2
11
Bluff 6, Concentration 12(+6), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 6, K/The Planes 5, K/Religion 8, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 9(+1)
Extend Spell
Rebuke Undead

12th
Mystic Theurge 1
3
4
2
13
Bluff 6, Concentration 13(+1), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 6, K/Dungeoneering 1(+1), K/Nature 1(+1), K/The Planes 5, K/Religion 8, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 13(+4)

13th
Mystic Theurge 2
4
4
2
14
Bluff 6, Concentration 14(+1), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 10(+4), K/Dungeoneering 1, K/Local 1(+1), K/Nature 1, K/The Planes 5, K/Religion 8, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 14(+1)

14th
Mystic Theurge 3
4
5
3
14
Bluff 6, Concentration 15(+1), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 15(+5), K/Dungeoneering 1, K/Local 1, K/Nature 1, K/The Planes 5, K/Religion 8, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 15(+1)
Persistent Spell

15th
Mystic Theurge 4
5
5
3
15
Bluff 6, Concentration 16(+1), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 16(+1), K/Dungeoneering 1, K/Local 1, K/Nature 1, K/The Planes 5, K/Religion 12(+4), Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 16(+1)

16th
Mystic Theurge 5
5
5
3
15
Bluff 6, Concentration 17(+1), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 17(+1), K/Dungeoneering 1, K/Local 1, K/Nature 1, K/The Planes 5, K/Religion 16(+4), Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 17(+1)

17th
Mystic Theurge 6
6
6
4
16
Bluff 6, Concentration 18(+1), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 18(+1), K/Dungeoneering 1, K/Local 1, K/Nature 1, K/The Planes 7(+2), K/Religion 18(+2), Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 18(+1)
Divine Metamagic

18th
Mystic Theurge 7
6
6
4
16
Bluff 6, Concentration 19(+1), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 19(+1), K/Dungeoneering 1, K/Local 1, K/Nature 1, K/The Planes 10(+3), K/Religion 19(+1), Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 19(+1)

19th
Mystic Theurge 8
7
6
4
17
Bluff 6, Concentration 20(+1), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 20(+1), K/Dungeoneering 1, K/Local 1, K/Nature 1, K/The Planes 13(+3), K/Religion 20(+1), Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 20(+1)

20th
Wizard 4

Bluff 6, Concentration 21(+1), Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, K/Arcana 21(+1), K/Dungeoneering 1, K/Local 1, K/Nature 1, K/The Planes 16(+3), K/Religion 21(+1), Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 21(+1)
Mindsight

Level
Class
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-

2nd
-

3rd
-

4th
Wizard 1
3
2

5th
Wizard 2
4
3

6th
Wizard 3
4
3
2

7th
Mindbender (Wizard 4)
4
4
3

8th
(Wizard 4/) Ur-Priest 1
4 + 4
5 + 3
3

9th
(Wizard 4/) Ur-Priest 2
4 + 5
5 + 4
3 + 1

10th
Mystic Theurge (Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 3)
4 + 5
5 + 4
3 + 2
2 + 1

11th
Mystic Theurge (Wizard 6/Ur-Priest 4)
4 + 6
5 + 4
4 + 3
3 + 2
1

12th
Mystic Theurge (Wizard 7/Ur-Priest 5)
4 + 6
6 + 4
4 + 4
3 + 3
2 + 2
0

13th
Mystic Theurge (Wizard 8/Ur-Priest 6)
4 + 6
6 + 4
4 + 4
4 + 4
3 + 3
1
0

14th
Mystic Theurge (Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 7)
4 + 6
6 + 5
5 + 4
4 + 4
3 + 4
2 + 2
1
0

15th
Mystic Theurge (Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 8)
4 + 6
6 + 5
5 + 5
4 + 4
4 + 4
3 + 3
2
1
0

16th
Mystic Theurge (Wizard 11/Ur-Priest 9)
4 + 6
6 + 7
5 + 5
5 + 5
4 + 5
3 + 5
1 + 3
2
1
0

17th
Mystic Theurge (Wizard 12/Ur-Priest 10)
4 + 6
6 + 7
5 + 6
5 + 5
4 + 5
4 + 5
2 + 4
3
2
1

18th
Wizard 13 (/Ur-Priest 10)
4 + 6
6 + 7
5 + 6
5 + 5
5 + 5
4 + 5
2 + 4
1 + 3
2
1

19th
LA

20th
LA

ECL 5:
Wretch begins life (or un-life) as a simple Tomb Mote. A Tiny Undead with no real advantages to its name beyond its supernatural Quickness, Wretch is going to need to scrabble and hide for a little while, until it starts getting abilities that let it really leverage its Quickness. Tiny size and high Dexterity provide a good defense, but offensive options are limited. Still, you don't actually need any particular Strength score to chuck flasks of acid and alchemist's fire, their damage isn't size-based, you can use Quickness to throw two splash weapons per round, they're ranged touch attacks (which both keys into Wretch's excellent Dexterity and makes up for its low BAB), and if you feel like smashing a thunderstone on an enemy spellcaster your undead immunities will protect you from getting caught in the blast.
ECL 10:
We've begun our Ur-Priest journey, presenting Wretch with the opportunity to eventually use those Quickness actions to fling 2 9th-level spells a turn. We're not there yet though. At ECL 10 Wretch is still substantially behind the curve, with only a maximum of 2nd level spells. All of them are effectively Quickened for free, which is lovely, but still. This is probably the low point of the build, as our previous splash weapons tactic is now far too low damage to really be all that helpful. Instead, load up on low-level buff spells and throw them out rapid-fire at the start of combat, using Quickness to double the rate at which you can get through your buffing routine. If the enemy has an obvious weak save you can also throw out 2 save-or-lose spells per round to double your chances of them failing.
ECL 15:
All the pieces are beginning to fall into place. Wretch now has the potential of 6th level spells to Quicken, and enough 1st-4th level spell slots to last through any fight even at double the usual consumption. Remember that you can get more use out of a lot of lower-level spells than most casters; for instance, True Strike becomes much more efficient when you don't need to wait a turn (and offer a troublesome foe an entire extra round of attacking you and your friends) before using it to land a vital ray. Or use Bestow Curse and follow it up with your save-or-lose immediately.
ECL 20:
With dual 7th level arcane/9th level divine spell level access, free Quickening on every one of them, the classic DMM: Persistent Spell cheese as a nice bonus and the continued passive defensive value of Tiny size, high Dex, and undead immunities to a lot of things that normally pose a save-or-lose threat, Wretch is well set up as a dangerous nova-style caster. We've also picked up Mindsight, to make a bit more use of that initial Mindbender level in letting Wretch locate its targets more easily. Just be sure to stay well away from the enemy wizard foolish enough to load up on blasting-style spells, and from enemy dragons; our Reflex save and hit points are our weak spot.

Items:
Get yourself as many Pearls of Power as you can get your grubby little claws on. Wretch will burn through spell slots at a rate of knots, especially at lower levels. You will also desperately want a +Wis item ASAP, to get bonus spells for the various places Ur-Priest gives you 0 spells per day. By level 16 (ECL 18), you will if at all possible want to have a total of +8 Wisdom, which will require some Wishes or Tomes of Understanding in addition to an enhancement-bonus item. (A Headband of Intellect or similar +Int item is also highly valuable, but less of a priority than a +Wis item, since wizards have no Spells Per Day 0 entries, meaning that you will always have at least some of your highest level arcane spells available.
Consider in general items such as wands and scrolls; your extra standard action can also be used to invoke a spell trigger or spell completion item, you have access to the wizard and cleric spell lists so will qualify to activate the vast majority of items, and in a pinch you can use your extra Quickness action to take a full-round action to dig through a Bag of Holding and still be able to activate whatever specific item you pull out.
Familiar: I recommend either a toad or a weasel (to shore up Wretch's two obvious weaknesses, its low hp and low Reflex save), but a bat or hawk for scouting duties is also feasible.
Incidentally, Tomb Motes weigh '5 to 8 pounds', and a little googling indicates that hawks can carry prey weighing around 5 pounds or so, so if you feel like being cheeky, see if you can persuade your GM that your familiar can carry you around.

Tomb Mote: Libris Mortis p128 / https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25097691&postcount=249
Wizard, Extend Spell, Iron Will, Scribe Scroll: PHB
Mindbender, Persistent Spell, Practiced Spellcaster: CArc p54, 81, 82
Ur-Priest, Divine Metamagic, Spell Focus (Evil): CDiv p70, 80, 84
Mindsight: LoM p126

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-07, 09:51 AM

And that's all seven! I was worried we'd barely get any entries for a while there, but I guess deadlines inspire us all, heh.

Troacctid

2021-07-07, 01:20 PM

Yeah, I had a Splinterwaif Rogue build stub put together, but I didn't feel like writing up a whole entry for it.

Beni-Kujaku

2021-07-07, 04:19 PM

Yaay! The builds are here! I was wondering what people would choose, and I'm very pleased with the fact that most of them actually have more than 2 or 3 RHD. It has been a common trend in VC to just reduce your CR to a minimum and create a regular 20-level build.

Asterion: I love minotaurs for everything that they represent, but I can't help but wonder what the heck went through the head of the devs to make a half-minotaur human have both more strength and constitution than a pure minotaur. Hybrid vigor, or they just didn't read the entry for "changing size". Also, non-pounce melee in an optimization contest? Daring!

Bitter Wind: I think we should ask people to link the LA-thread post(s) they used in their entry. I was looking for the LA assigned to the Orglash template and (bad puns aside) I couldn't see it anywhere (because we haven't covered it yet, but still). And thank you for reminding me of Orglash. It's quite limited, but pumping the int of a medium air elemental from 4 to 10 with a +1 template can be quite valuable around here (and no, still no difference in my rating for the air elementals). Surprisingly to-the-point build, I would have liked to see what prestige classes you would have put on top of it.

WWTC: Inevitability:"I hope to make all monsters equally playable!" WWTC:"I'll just play the only MM dragon that was already playable, thank you very much."
I was about to ask "Did we ever consider sovereign archetypes when assigning true dragon LA?", but in fact there is one, and only one mention of Wyrm of War around the corner of one post from Inevitability, so he probably did consider them. That makes 4 bonus feats by level 19 with the feat version of WoW (probably not the best acronym), and makes the 4 HD of a black dragon Wyrmling absolutely completely better than 4 Fighter levels in every way.
Oooooh, trading non-racial sorcerer casting for WoW, without sorcerer casting of your own. That is definitely non intended, but is that legal...? At the very least, a strict reading of "sorcerer level" would not allow to count the prestige classes in it, but then again, a strict reading of "sorcerer level" would not include the racial casting either, so it's a bit moot. Looking forward to the judgings of this one.

Athear: Yes, more dragons! That's what I was waiting for here! (well, that and Bard/Siren petals, but that's because I have a love/hate relationship with this prestige class) With this name, I was foolishly hoping for a Shining Blade of Heironeous, but hey, you can't have everything. Instead, you have an actually good character. I feel like this is more of a genuine character you could play in a campaign and less of an optimized one. Still strong, just... Plays fair, I guess, for a spellcaster, just wanting to buff himself and not destroy the universe.

Antunia: Why a Lillend? It's not weak per se, none of the LA+2 monsters of the thread are, but it's kind of all over the place. I'm not sure you couldn't have reached the same or better result with just a regular LA+0 class. I would like to know what made you choose a monster like the Lillend, with no really unique abilities, after the reveal.

Nachni: I am picturing a dancing troll dealing hundreds of scratches to a human scared to death that she could just crush him with a club. Don't get me wrong, these are a lot of attacks, but those are light weapons, with only half your strength bonus on damage. Just attacking 4 times with a greatsword might do a comparable amount of damage. And having 95% chance of landing at least one crit in a round (yes I made the calculations) doesn't mean much with no crit optimization. I would have liked you to mention that your weapons should be in kaorti resin, or that they should be Stalactite weapons (Flesh to Stone on a crit), or, you know, take actual crit feats.

Wretch: *long sigh* Speaking of wanting to destroy the universe... We gave this LA to the Tomb Mote specifically to prevent it from getting two 9th per round in either spells, powers, or maneuvers! But of course, Ur-Priest (and divine crusader, but that's less of a problem) still exists, and we weren't going to give the Wretch +10 LA. Still love the little hate speech at the beginning. Too bad you didn't get the real Quicken Spell, to cast three lv 9 per round, with DMM (I know Persist is way better, it's just for the overkill)! Also, I'm sorry to say that like that, but... How do you cast? I'm pretty the vast majority of cleric and wizard spells require verbal components, and you can't speak, neither do you have Silent Spell, and I don't know if there is an item to bypass that.

Thurbane

2021-07-07, 05:02 PM

Congrats to the entrants!

My stub was a Fensir Giant 4/Wizard 1/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant Champion 5 "gish" build (BAB +16, Wizard 18 casting).

The whole "turning to stone in the sun" thing gave me a headache; the Endure Sunlight feat is keyed off Cha, and they take a -4 to Cha. I started looking for spell options, but the best and most obvious solution wasn't available to Wizards without a dip that would stop me getting to +16 BAB (Wyrm Wizard to grab Cloak of Dark Power off the Drow domain). I guess I could have taken Arcane Disciple, but that would make it 1/day, and the fluff of having a Fensir worshipping a god with that domain just seemed bizarre. I mean arguably, Obscuring Mist etc. might work?

In the end I just shelved the whole thing.

NotInventedHere

2021-07-07, 05:19 PM

I don't know if there is an item to bypass that.

Doesn't the Pearl of Speech come up, like, constantly in the LA-Assignment thread?

EDIT:

Also, wow, this is a lot of neat builds. Martial maneveurs, spellcasting, and some just plain massive bruisers. Lots of diversity given the fairly tight requirements. Just on a quick skim-through I'm leaning towards an HM vote for Athear the jury-rigged Paladin.

Voldine

2021-07-07, 06:00 PM

Beni, light weapons in the main hand deal full strength damage. Light weapons in the off-hand deal half. Otherwise there'd be no point in ever using two light weapons in TWF style, and no point to classifying scimitars as light weapons for the Dervish class at all if it meant only half strength on both weapons.

That being said, from a pure damage optimization standpoint, whoever wrote that up might have done a better job if they had just gone with scimitars from the start because of that dervish class ability. Then they would have had two spare feats at minimum, and Monk might have actually been a good class there if they'd rigged their stats differently. Monk flurry with natural weapons in play would have meant troll rend attacks all over the place.

Beni-Kujaku

2021-07-07, 10:59 PM

Doesn't the Pearl of Speech come up, like, constantly in the LA-Assignment thread?

Yes it does! But not only is it not mentioned here‚ it wouldn't work. Pearl of Speech works by being absorbed in the subject's tongue when put inside their mouth. The Tomb Mote has neither mouth nor tongue. Now‚ it could still be done‚ by having someone polymorph you into anything‚ really‚ and absorb the pearl of speech there‚ but there's no mention of it in the build.

Beni, light weapons in the main hand deal full strength damage. Light weapons in the off-hand deal half.

D'uh. Of course they do. Sorry‚ I got mistaken with Power Attack‚ which makes the "light/1-handed" distinction. I still believe it isn't worth putting all your build in it and foregoing Power Attack‚ and that critical optimization would help a lot‚ but it's better than I initially wrote

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-07-07, 11:24 PM

My build was:

Skin Kite 4 RHD/ Rogue 3/ Totemist 2/ Barbarian 1/ Umbral Disciple 10

With the idea being it could switch between one-limbed grappling via Improved Grab (to do Sneak Attack damage to its victims) and Skin Meld for battlefield control against foes ordinarily immune to grappling. Might have swapped the Spirit Totem (bear) Barbarian for the Scorpion's Grasp feat to avoid multiclass penalties, but then you lose out on the (Greater) Multigrab feats, which really hurts the one-limbed grappling side of the character.

Morphic tide

2021-07-08, 01:47 AM

I was going to crunch out the Echoing Spell Slaymate I'd suggested, but found myself choked out by feats so I couldn't figure out how to make it at all interesting. Having three strictly required feats for the entire premise of the build make a pretty harsh mess, and if you're a Wizard then what reason have you to not go Corpsecrafter Enhanced Undead... Which again hurts distinction because it's so painfully standard.

The Arcane Thesis choice I ended up settling on was Negative Energy Ray, which as the name suggests is a Ray of Negative Energy. And is a 1st-level spell. It scales as 1d6/2 levels, max 5d6, but this is still vastly more efficient healing than normal and is not a poor use of Standard Actions in the slightest. Another option is Chill Touch, as Reach Spell has many applications throughout the Necromancy school and it's a uses-scaling spell, but does not heal Undead innately.

One can wring more Negative Energy through Black Lore of Moil, which allows you to add 1d6+1d6/2 spell levels Negative Energy damage at the cost of a 25 gp/die Moilian Runebone, which might let Chill Touch heal Undead CL times per Runebone as long as you don't mind the fleeing whenever they fail a Will save. A Wand of Inflict Light Wounds is 15 gp/use for 1d8, so right from CL 2 a Moilian Chill Touch is more cost-effective. Notably, this is a Material Component, so it's mandated to use one when you prepare the spell and must be used each time. Consequently, not actually a good idea for more than one Echoing slot because it attaches a minimum 25 gp cost to each copy.

Having Spell Focus (Necromancy) as a prerequisite is even less a tax if going Master Specialist (Necromancy), which works well with the spell-spamming because the Minor and Major School Esoterica are on-cast bonuses, being PRC-level based Saving Throws and Turn Resistance for the Minor and Fast Healing 10 for 5 rounds for the Major capstone. And the bulk of Necromancy spells are save-or-suck/lose, anyways, so the DC bump is going to be a small help, just not as much of one as a proper banger of a metamagic feat.

While relatively boring and very tight on feats, it is insanely capable of pumping Negative Energy over time. Which translates to being able to actually keep a lot of the stupider Undead options and making HP damage completely irrelevant because you have an utterly lunatic ability to inflict Negative Energy.

Another implementation I considered for the same feat combo was a Dragonblooded Sublime Chord, with Half-Dragon offering non-Fire Dragonfire Inspiration otherwise only gotten from Draconic Heritage. I'd actually run the numbers for CL 26 on Echoing Cure Serious Wounds, and it's an average 144 from a 5th-level slot, though split over four hours. You'd want to put your Practical Metamagic on Maximize Spell for raw general throughput, as Echoing Spell is cheated onto more slots via Residual Magic and the overall combination turns it into a +1 metamagic.

Thurbane

2021-07-08, 05:49 AM

Yes it does! But not only is it not mentioned here‚ it wouldn't work. Pearl of Speech works by being absorbed in the subject's tongue when put inside their mouth. The Tomb Mote has neither mouth nor tongue. Now‚ it could still be done‚ by having someone polymorph you into anything‚ really‚ and absorb the pearl of speech there‚ but there's no mention of it in the build.

Amulet of Freedom of Speech (https://web.archive.org/web/20181008022833/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20020125a) should work.

Beni-Kujaku

2021-07-08, 08:19 AM

Amulet of Freedom of Speech (https://web.archive.org/web/20181008022833/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20020125a) should work.

Oh, that's very nice! And suprisingly cheap with that. Thank you for the reference.

Prime32

2021-07-08, 07:51 PM

I went through a few concepts for this, and the one I got furthest with was:

Amphibious Centaur, Rogue (psychic rogue) 1/Monk (invisible fist) 2/Scaled Horror 2/War Mind 10

Has a bunch of speed boosters including magic horseshoes, the Feathered Wings graft and that spear which doubles your speed while held. Buffs up with augmented expansion + short-term invisibility, then makes a flying overrun attempt which triggers Trample + Centaur Trample + Power Dive (with Snap Kick doubling that into six attacks). Each of these is a potential Craven sneak attack which also triggers Improved Grab, and after grabbing a foe the Greater Multigrab feat allows it to keep moving and carry its opponent deep underwater before they know what's happening. I also had Shape Soulmeld (mauling gauntlets) + Unbalancing Strike in there (the latter for setting up sneak attacks against opponents who can see invisible creatures).

I also considered a build I was calling "Temporal Griefer" - a Temporal Filcher Rogue (psychic rogue) 4/Flayerspawn Psychic 8, with the Snatch and Improved Rapidstrike feats allowing it to carry people into the future over and over as part of the same attack routine. Yeah, surprisingly you can't qualify for the Illithid Heritage feat chain through PLAs.

Oh, and I came across the Shellcraft Manikin (Ghostwalk p44), which is a nonmagical item that gives any incorporeal creature a corporeal form shaped like a Medium humanoid. Which seems like it could be incredibly useful for someone, but I wasn't sure what to do with it.

Voldine

2021-07-10, 08:23 PM

The judges know the deadline has passed, right? I get that a serious competition means serious consideration time, but no updates in two days is making me a bit nervous.

pabelfly

2021-07-11, 02:55 AM

The judges know the deadline has passed, right? I get that a serious competition means serious consideration time, but no updates in two days is making me a bit nervous.

Not sure if anyone else is judging, but I'm nearly done writing up the third entry of the seven. Apologies that this isn't as quick as what the OP or any of the entrants had originally hoped for.

ciopo

2021-07-11, 03:18 AM

pabelfly

2021-07-11, 03:24 AM

take your time and thanks for judging! I believe Beni-Kujaku is judging too

also, i don't think the judging deadline is voer already? far I feel the usual turnabout for judging is about 10 days, depending on the amount of submissions

My mistake. Apparently the deadline is the 14th but we'll see how I go.

mattie_p

2021-07-11, 04:16 AM

You should go at your own pace. Traditionally, judges get about 2 weeks in these sorts of competitions. I find that the time spent is worthwhile.

Beni-Kujaku

2021-07-11, 03:09 PM

take your time and thanks for judging! I believe Beni-Kujaku is judging too

also, i don't think the judging deadline is voer already? far I feel the usual turnabout for judging is about 10 days, depending on the amount of submissions

Sorry‚ I am not. I just gave my 2 cents on each build‚ but I am a bit busy IRL at the moment. Maybe for a next iteration.

mattie_p

2021-07-11, 04:27 PM

EDIT2: I'd also just like to note that this would absolutely not have been possible without mattie_p's excellent Google Doc for formatting, not even slightly. It was an enormous time- and, more importantly, stress-saver.
Glad it helped at least 1 person! If you have any feedback to make it better let me know. I'm thinking about doing something with skill ranks next, as that alone is pretty challenging. Working on it while I make entries for the main IC.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-12, 09:11 AM

You should go at your own pace. Traditionally, judges get about 2 weeks in these sorts of competitions. I find that the time spent is worthwhile.
looks at deadlines set
makes note for next time

pabelfly

2021-07-14, 04:26 AM

Update: Done five of seven entries. Need to finish Nachni and Wretch, check all the entries over, then post and see what disputes there are and how I went with judging.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-14, 02:23 PM

That last one will need to wait on the others, you realize. :tongue:

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-07-14, 03:47 PM

That last one will need to wait on the others, you realize. :tongue:

Fool! My disputes are already lined up and ready to go! Just give me the word and I'll unleash them; no need to wait for the judgment!

loky1109

2021-07-14, 03:55 PM

Fool! My disputes are already lined up and ready to go! Just give me the word and I'll unleash them; no need to wait for the judgment!

No need to wait even for the entries! )))

pabelfly

2021-07-18, 01:06 AM

All scores start at a baseline of 3/5, with various additions and deductions in scores explained.

Since this is a new type of competition, the Monster category requires more explanation. I asked the following questions to mark an entrant's Monstrosity:
- How central to the build were the monster traits, abilities, etc.
- How much did you invest in the monster’s innate skill list? Did you invest in these skills further after getting class levels?
- How well does the build concept at level 20 match the original monster idea?

The concept of “Monster” isn’t formally-defined, but should a player have entered a build that wasn’t sufficiently “monstrous”, they would have been heavily penalized, if not ineligible for scoring in this category.

Build
Score

Asterion the Devout

14.5/20
[/td]

Bitter Wind

17.5/20
[/td]

The White Wyrmling of Tiger Claw

8/20
[/td]

Athear, The Lightkeeper of Heironeous

13.5/20
[/td]

Antunia, Chaotic Good Lillend

14.5/20
[/td]

Nachni, Female Chaotic Neutral Troll Blender

15/20
[/td]

Wretch

14/20
[/td]

Minotaur is a bit different. I like. (+0.5 points)
Cleric is one of four possible build ingredients. No points for or against originality here. (0 points)
Psychic Warrior and Psychic Theurge are pretty standard fare. (-0.5 points)
Most of your feats are standard for a psionic gish. (-0.5 points)
Charging without Pounce or an equivalent? I rather like that. (+0.5 points)
Apprentice: Spellcaster is a nice pick and Apprentice feats are underutilized. (+0.5 points)
Sizing up to extreme sizes is a fun idea. (+0.5 points)
I like that you’ve given recommended spells for your character. (+0.5 points)
I especially like that your recommended spell list includes a way to deal with stat damage directed at your very low intelligence stat. (+0.5 points)
Apprentice feats do require you to spend a four days a month in one location but I think that this isn't unreasonable for a DM to fit into a game. No points gained or lost here. (0 points)
Your saves are Minotaur 3 (2/5/5), Cleric 3 (3/1/3), Psychic Warrior (4/1/1) and Psychic Theurge (2/2/5) for a total of 11/9/14 but you have 11/9/12. No points won or lost. (0 points)
Saves after your maths has been fixed and added base stats is decent. (15/10/18) (+0.5 points)
In optimal conditions, your power is at a decent level. I'm going with your interpretation on how Strength Devotion is worded and with increasing your Powerful Charge damage as you increase Gore attack damage. I think the feat can be read that way, especially with the next sentence seeming to refer to your Natural Attack, and if we do go with that interpretation, your power is not unreasonable. (+0.5 points)
Your build relies on becoming really, really big and charging, but unfortunately assumes you’re always going to be in a position to grow big without any mechanical or roleplay issues, and I can see a lot of those happening. Seems like your character is much weaker if you can't do this. (-1 point)
You have no free movement options or the like until level 20. Even when you can size up to Gargantuan, I don't think it's a great idea with a charging character. (-1 points)
I had missed that the character had Hustle at level 13. This was an error on my part. Brief writeups of abilities, spells, etcetera and especially strategies to deal with potential problems would help avoid misunderstandings like this.
You have no free movement options or the like until level 13. Even being able to size up, I don't think it's a great idea with a charging character. (-0.5 points)
There is a severe lack of skill points in this build, and the skills you invest in are quite low for a level 20 character. You’re going to have very little to contribute out of combat. (-1 point)
Took advantage of LA Assignment threads to get another two class levels on your build. (+0.5 points)

You’ve done your level 1 skills wrong. Order for character creation is to add skill points to your character, then feats. Knowledge (Religion) becomes a class skill after you’ve spent your 9 skill points. Your actual point allotment is Knowledge (Religion) 0.5 (CC), Knowledge (Psionics) 1 (CC), and Psicraft 3 (CC). You’ve then pick up your Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat and got 2 bonus skill points which you put into K (Religion) which gets you up to 2.5 points instead of 3 points. Your build doesn't techncially qualify for your Psychic Theurge (but you can drop a point of Concentration and be stuck with a 1/2 skill point in a skill. (-2 points)
I had originally went with the idea of creating a level 6 character all at once, rather than creating it level-by-level, which is what caused the original penalty. Going level-by-level instead would avoid this penalty, and I am happy with the effort the build has went to (two feats, no less) to ensure that the character would meet prestige class requirements. No points gained or lost here. (0 points)
You made good use of Cleric in your build. (+0.5 points)
A nice simple build stub. (+0.5 points)
There's little character flavour here beyond cleric/psychic warrior theurge. For example, your character is meant to be a gladiator, so why not get some skills that relate to being a gladiator? You're a worshipper of a Chaotic Evil God, so why not take some feats or the like that relate to your alignment? I couldn't even see that your character was an evil-aligned character without looking up your choice of deity. (-1 point)
The Spellcaster: Apprentice feat shows a minimal investment in skills. (+0.5 points)
I don’t like how you suddenly start dabbling in Soulmelds around level 15, it seems to come out of nowhere for your build. Yeah, it gives you another size boost but it comes out of nowhere in terms of character flavour. (-0.5 points)
No multiclassing penalties. (+0.5 points)
Didn’t assume a favored class. (+0.5 points)

Making use of Powerful Charge as the centre of your build concept. I like. (+1 point)
Didn’t make use of any of your monster skills in your build. Didn’t make use of your racial skill bonuses. (-1 points)
Focused on melee combat, just like the original monster. (+1 point)
I don’t think divine magic and psionic abilities fit the flavour of a brute-force monster like a Minotaur. (-0.5 points)

Invisible stalker is a bit outside the regular. I like. (+0.5 what points)
The Orglash Template is exactly the sort of thing I want to be seeing when I'm judging builds - obscure material, narrow in use, and used to the upmost for your character concept. (+2 points)
Dark Creature is a pretty standard template (-1 points)
Swift Ambusher combo is somewhat obscure. (+0.5 points)
The regular feats for Swift Attack and Sneak Attack. (-0.5 points)
I like seeing feats to boost fly speed and get Flyby attack and Great Flyby Attack. (+0.5 points)

It seems like you’re going to be either an invisible character with visible items, or someone who can’t equip items, both of which really reduce the effectiveness of your build. (-2 points)
The mechanics of Invisible Stalker's Natural Invisibility are not well-explained, especially whether Natural Invisibility applies to gear or equipment. While I personally think that the original monster comes without treasure or equipment because of this, this isn't properly clarified with the information we have for the original monster, the "Invisibility" spell also makes gear and equipment invisible. There's no clear-cut answer here, so we're firmly in "Ask the DM" territory. The creator of "Bitter Wind" also has the point that should natural invisibility not work on gear and equipment, money can be spent on consumables, etc instead. No points gained or lost. (0 points)
Damage calculations.
I presume you get your hits in, at least when you're using full BAB – it's pretty low but you are attacking at your highest and your STR is a +6.
2d6 Slam + 1d6 (Cold damage) + 6 (STR) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 3d6 (Skirmish) + 18 (Craven) per hit.
10d6 + 24 per hit, or approx. 59 damage per hit.
Not sure how many hits you get in on an enemy - Greater Flyby says you get your dex in attacks per turn but natural attacks are hard-capped at 1 each per turn, but you'd get two of them on your enemy of choice
In any case, I'd say damage is at a good level - not bad, but not excessive. (+0.5 points)
Sneak Attack and Skirmish have poor synergy since they have trouble with the same sort of creatures: undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures. That's not a small list of monsters that you're going to be quite ineffective against. (-1 point)
If your opponents can bypass your invisibility, get True Sight, etc, you lose a lot of your damage potential. You've taken some measure against this but the lack of consistency is always going to be a problem with Sneak Attack builds even if we forget enemy type. (-0.5 points)
Innate, natural flight speed with 70 speed and perfect manoeuvrability is great stuff for a skirmish character. (+0.5 points)
Innate invisibility and Darkstalker is great for a sneak attack character. (+0.5 points)
HP is pretty good for a skirmishing frontliner. (+0.5 points)
Your saves are 2/6/2 (Invisible Stalker 8) 1/3/1 (Scout 3) and 2/5/2 (Rogue 7) for a total of 5/14/5. Looks like your level entry for level 14 was wrong. No penalty. (0 points)
Saves are terrible. Especially a Will Save of 7 at level 20. (-1 point)
Lots of skills at a high level, especially Hide and Move Silently. You’ll have plenty to contribute outside of combat. (+1 point)
Took advantage of LA Assignment threads to make an unplayable monster a playable character (+0.5 points)

Made good use of Rogue in your build. (+0.5 points)
Your skills support your character concept. (+0.5 points)
Assumed a Favored Class for the Invisible Stalker. This was allowed in the thread, so no points won or lost here. (0 points)
No multiclassing penalties. (+0.5 points)
Build centred around innate abilities of monster. (+0.5 points)
Build concept matches original concept of character. (+0.5 points)
Made a good case for going with Invisible Stalker over extra levels for Skirmisher. (+0.5 points)
Made great use of racial bonuses for skills. (+0.5 points)
Apologies for the low score. Hopefully my explanation and scoring gives you a better idea on making a good entrant in the future. I would also suggest taking the time to judge yourself - carefully examining and critiquing different builds can help you work out what to consider in making a good entrant in the future (IMO).

I would also suggest explaining your build in more detail in the future. Take a few sentences to explain your spells, manoeuvres, etc and any synergies they have. I haven’t penalized you for this but you could well have missed out on extra points for features and synergies I may have missed while looking through your build.

Note: This is an LA +1 character, so it would start on level 3 and end on 19 instead of starting at 4 and ending at 20. If you want to compare your level 19 LA +1 Wyrmling to a Level 20 character, the phrase you're after is ECL, or Effective Combat Level. No points won or lost here. (0 points)

Note: Please try to list the sourcebooks you use for your build. It makes it easier for anyone looking at your build to check up on rules and mechanics. Especially me when I’m doing judging. No points won or lost here.
Dragons are pretty cool. (+0.5 points)
While we do have two dragons in this contest, I think they are sufficiently different to eachother that there isn't an issue with originality. No points won or lost. (0 points)
Wyrm of War is pretty common cheese for dragons, but at least you went for the Manoeuvre variant over the feat variant for something slightly interesting. Call it even. (0 points)
Apart from starting as a dragon, this is a pretty standard Jade Phoenix Mage build. (-1 point)
We have two Jade Phoenix Mage gishes with a focus on the Devoted Spirit Discipline in this competition, unfortunately. I think that's a little too similar in a competition with such broad scope. (-0.5 points)
Between 6th-level Sorcerer spells and 7th-level manoeuvres, you should do alright in combat (+0.5 points)
You get your manoeuvres You should have pretty consistent power throughout the entire day. (+0.5 points)
Saves are alright. Not bad, not great. (0 points)
You are lacking skills to use out-of-combat. (-1 point)
150ft Flight with Good Flight is useful at every level. (+0.5 points)
Power Attack feels like a waste of a feat and quickly becomes obsolete, if it’s not already obsolete when you get it. Power Attack is a great feat, but only if you support it with your build and your feats, and you haven’t done that. (-0.5 points)
There is some synergy between Power attack and the abilities available to the build, but it seems that the same synergies apply to maneuvers and have the added benefit of doing more damage and being more accurate, especially at higher levels. I still feel that this feat isn't going to be useful for the entire build. I've removed the point penalty here. (0 Points)
I do not understand what is up with your alternate point buy option. First, there should only be one option. Second, you should not be getting a +4 Charisma item before level 8. You can’t spend more than 50% of your wealth on a single item, and you shouldn’t have 32K gold before level 8. Lastly, if you did choose that point buy and did get that +4 item, you’re limiting yourself to level 3 spells due to how Sorcerer spells are managed. (-1 point)
No direction as to where bonus stat points are to be put. All I know is that it doesn’t seem to be Charisma (judging on the point buy you give), which isn’t making a lot of sense for a caster with some spells that require saves and one that gets bonus spells from high Charisma.(-0.5 points)
Took advantage of LA Assignment threads to get another class level on the build (+0.5 points)

You don't qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage. You need 2 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana), 2 ranks of Knowledge (History) and 2 ranks of Knowledge (Religion). I can't see this in your build. This can be fixed if you changed a whole bunch of skills to cross-class skills. Unfortunate. (-2 points)
I can’t see any reason why your lone Fighter level wouldn’t be better as a level in Sorcerer or Warblade. It feels like you have been forced to take this level rather than it being an integral part of your build. Putting aside how weak Power Attack is in this build, Sorcerer or Warblade both give you +1 BAB, neither of them delay your entry into Abjurant Champ, and both give you another level of spells or manoeuvres, neither of which Fighter does. (-2 points)
This penalty was originally a -2, but after discussion from other entrants, the penalty was reduced to a -1 instead. (-1 points)
Odd Initiator level. No points gained or lost. (0 points)
You've done a good job adding spells and manoeuvres for a dragon that happens to be a Warblade/Sorcerer gish but you haven't done much in the way of character flavour beyond that. Like, your character is supposed to be a practicing martial artist, what non-combat skills do you think such a character should have and why? Or, what spells would you pick that aren't necessarily the most powerful, but are good flavour for your character? (-0.5 points)
Draconic Polymorph is good flavour for a dragon character. (+0.5 points)
You’re getting Tiger Claw manoevers because of the War Wyrm addition to the build, but I don’t see much synergy between a build pumping Jump for manoeuvres, and a character investing in multiple feats to get to improve flight to engage, presumably hoping to use its skills and spells in aerial combat. (-0.5 points)
No multiclassing penalties. (+0.5 points)
Didn’t assume a Favored Class (+0.5 points)

Minimum scores in each category are generally supposed to be 1/5 but I feel that the issues I've pointed out are sufficient to make this an exception.
Some investment in flight with your feats. (+0.5 points)
Didn’t take advantage of dragonbreath, dragonblood or any of the dragon's monstrous abilities. (-1 point)
Wyrm of War is a dragon-specific option. I like to see people taking advantage of race-specific options, although there was no cost to you whatsoever. If there had been a cost to this option, besides forgoing other free options, this would be scored higher.(+0.5 points)
Minimal investment in your monstrous skills after your levels in Dragon. No points won or lost. (0 points)
Judging by the end of your post, this sounds like your first time building a character for 3.5. Hope you had a fun time.

Note: Please try to list the sourcebooks you use for your build. It makes it easier for anyone looking at your build to check up on rules and mechanics. Especially anyone doing judging. No points won or lost here.

Nice to see someone make use of the Bronze Dragon for a dragon-based build, in spite of it having 6 hit dice. (+0.5 points)
While we do have two dragons in this contest, I think they are sufficiently different to eachother that there isn't an issue with originality. No points won or lost. (0 points)
Interesting Sovereign Archtype pick with Lightkeeper. (+0.5 points)
I think Divine Crusader, while limited, gets unfairly neglected compared to its counterpart, the Ur-Priest. (+0.5 points)
A bunch of the dips from the usual suspects for a Divine Crusader build to get more domains and expand your spell list, but it's not as if Divine Crusader builds are that common. Call it even. (0 points)
Let's calculate damage for level 20. You're Small size, have a bite (1d4), two claws (1d3 each), and a mouthpick longsword (1d4). You get two extra attack with your claws (Improved Rapidstrike).
You get Law Devotion twice a day, one minute each (once from Devotion feat, once from Extra Turning). That's a +7 from level 15, but only for about half of your combats each day (I'm assuming four combats a day).
Fist of the Gods, from Ordained Champion, lets you sacrifice spells for bonus damage for five rounds. Let's assume that during the battles you don't use Law Devotion, you're using some of your higher-level spell slots, and when Law Devotion is active, you're using up some of your lower-level spell slots for more consistent power.
Holy Warrior gives you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. Let's assume you use you keep your level 9 spell in reserve all day, and get a +9.
Damage:
Bite: 1d4 + 5 (STR) + 9 (Holy Warrior) + 7 (Law Devotion) + X (Fist of the Gods) (Attacks: 21 attack roll)
Claws: 1d3 + 5 (STR for main, 2 STR for off) + 9 (Holy Warrior) + 7 (Law Devotion) + X (Fist of the Gods) (Attacks: 21/21/16/11 attack rolls)
Mouth Longsword: 1d4 + 5 (STR) + 9 (Holy Warrior) + 7 (Law Devotion) + X (Fist of the Gods) + 2 (Weapon Specialization), (Attacks: 21/16/11/6 attack rolls)
Let's assume you hit with four out of six of your attacks that are 16 or higher.
1d4 + 2d3 + 1d4 + 9x4 + 7x4 + 5x3 (STR on main) + 2 (STR on offhand attack) + 4 (94 damage).
Approximately 94 damage a turn, and can spike higher when you use some of your lower-level spell slots with Law Devotion active, and can go even higher if there's a really hard battle. I think this is decent - not too overpowered, not too weak. (+0.5 points)
The racial stat bonuses for a Bronze Dragon are 2/0/2/4/4/4 (See Savage Species, P14 for how this is calculated). Your point buy seems to be 14/14/14/8/12/14 for a total of 16/14/16/12/16/18, but that's only a total of 28 points instead of 30. No points won or lost. (0 points)
Looks like you’ve pulled your save scores directly from the Bronze Wyrmling stat block, which have been already adjusted for the default Bronze Wyrmling stats. When you’re building a monster in the future, check the monster type (Dragon) and then see what features it has (Full BAB, good saves, so 5/5/5) and start with that. Your saves are 18/10/16 instead of 19/10/18. No points won or lost. (0 points)
Good saves after base stat bonuses. (21/12/19). (+1 point)
You've briefly mentioned you haven't played 3.5 before, so I wanted to be sure that you were aware that you get more spells for a higher casting stat. You say to go to 19 for your CHA (nicely spotted that it gets you your ninth-level spells) but going to 19 CHA instead of 20 means you miss out on an extra 5th and 1st level spell each day. This rather helps your build's damage, and is why spellcasters focus so heavily on their casting stat of choice. No points won or lost here. (0 points)
Your skill points are all over the place, and your Spellcraft and Intimidate skill are lower than what they could be. You don't have much to do out of combat. (-1 point)
No spell list. No rundown of what level you get your spells either, which is important when you're getting lower-level spells throughout all levels. You've briefly mentioned a few spells you might use, but I would have appreciated more details without having to do the research myself to find it all. (-0.5 points)
Took advantage of LA Assignment threads to get another four class levels for your build concept. (+0.5 points)

Fighter was barely used in the build, but at least it netted you a feat prerequisite for Divine Crusader. You would have scored more should you made more use of Fighter-only feats, alternate class features, etc. Call it even. (0 points)
I don't think a non-caster class like Fighter is quite representative of the rest of a build fuelled through Divine Magic spells and spell slots. (-1 point)
Quite a few dips to add Domains and spells to your Divine Crusader spell list. Expected, but all those dips are somewhat lacking in elegance. (-1 point)
Claw attacks (and bites) are natural weapons and feats like Holy Warrior, etc boost your attacks, not specifically directed at weapons. There's no reason to tank elegance here. See Savage Species, P27 for more about Natural Attacks. (0 points)
No multiclassing penalties. (+0.5 points)
Didn’t assume a favored class. (+0.5 points)

Slight investment in flight ability. (+0.5 points)
Didn’t take advantage of dragonbreath, dragonblood or any of your monstrous abilities. (-1 point)
Invested in Intimidate beyond monster levels, but only dabbled beyond that. (+0.5 points)
Used Soverign Archtypes to make the dragon divine gish-flavored, which you then followed up on. (+0.5 points)
Note: You have 18 have levels because of your 2 LA. I would start with two empty rows to denote your Level Adjustment, then Level 7 (because you start as a Level 7 monster) with your BAB, 5/5/5 saves and all skills calculated, and continue your level progression to 18 after that. Perhaps an optional Savage Species-style Monster Progression separately. No points won or lost.

Note: Please try to list the sourcebooks you use for your build. It makes it easier for anyone looking at your build to check up on rules and mechanics. Especially me when I’m doing judging. No points won or lost.

Lillend was an interesting racial choice. (+0.5 points)
We have two Jade Phoenix Mage gishes with a focus on the Devoted Spirit Discipline in this competition, unfortunately. I think that's a little too similar in a competition with such broad scope. (-0.5 points)
Fighter is one of the core ingredients. No points won or lost. (0 points)
Qualifying for Jade Phoenix mage through multiple feats to get manoeuvres and stances rather than a class level is interesting. (+0.5 points)
We don’t normally include items in a build unless the build is non-functional without said item. GreatWyrmGold explained why in the thread:

Speaking as someone who's judged for this kind of competition (albeit Villainous Competition more often than Iron Chef), I don't feel the need to equip characters with WBL-appropriate gear and figure out exactly what they can and can't do. Moreover, a lot of gear for effective characters is going to be similar to gear for other effective characters, especially when you consider that the kinds of unique special items that might actually make or break a build may or may not come up in a campaign. In other words, the only time you can actually make gear proficiency matter to your entry is when your entry is reliant on specific magic items, which is seen as a no-no.

At the end of the day, testing competitors' skill at selecting good magic items just isn't worth the hassle of making every competitor select gear at every level—or, for that matter, the hassle of making judges read through and parse those gear listings!
So I’m generally going to disregard your item recommendations. We’ll assume that your character has access to a Bastard Sword, at the size of their choice. No points won or lost. (0 points)
You've got fifth-level Bard spells and a few Devoted Spirit manoeuvres of varying levels. I'm not sure that you have enough manoeuvres, let alone high-level manoeuvres, but with your Bardic magic, but I think you'll do alright. (+0.5 points)
For some reason, you split your manoeuvres between Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit, taking a first and a second-level manoeuvre from Desert Wind. I would really question if a second-level Desert Wind manoeuvre is better than the higher-level Devoted Spirit manoeuvre that you could have picked up instead. You only need one Desert Wind manoeuvre to get the Holocaust Cloak stance. (-0.5 points)
Saves are 14/8/8, not 14/9/9. No points won/lost. (0 points)
After stat bonuses, Fort is pretty good, and Reflex decent, but your Will save (which I think the most important) is pretty low after stat adjustment. We'll call it even. (0 points)
Lots of skills, lots of skill points. You'll have plenty of stuff to do out of combat. (+1 point)
I don't understand why you have the skill totals you do. There are a few cross-class skills that you went with to get Jade Phoenix Mage (we’ve all been there), but you haven't maxed out any of your skills except Perform (Dance). (-0.5 points)
I can't see where Profession: Mercenary is a thing, or what you'd expect to be able to do with it. But you haven't tried to handwave any character deficiencies away with it. No points won or lost. (0 points)
You're trying some cheese with Ancestral Relic, so let's analyze the problems with the “cheese”.
1) Your assumption that you'd have hundreds of days of downtime to do this is extremely questionable at best. I’d penalize you on this point alone, but for the sake of completeness, I’ll note other issues with this.
2) You give up a high-level feat slot for this. That means you pass up the opportunity to improve or get more manoeuvres, get metamagic, improve your spellcasting, etc.
3) All of this money you're throwing at your weapon means you're not spending money on other options you need more. A better weapon is nice, sure, but you need your other Big Six items, items to give you Immunities, Mind Blank, True Seeing, ways to dispel magic, etc. It’s always nice to improve your weapon, but having the gear to do the damage in the first place is even better.
Separate to the problems this strategy has, this isn't unknown cheese. I'd reward your cheese under elegance or originality if it was a new or interesting idea, this isn’t really either. (-1 point)
Took advantage of LA Assignment threads to get another two class level on your build. (+0.5 points)
I can’t see any reason why your lone Fighter level wouldn’t be better as a level in Crusader. You’d get the same BAB, just as much Fort, more manoeuvres, and just as many Stances. Feels like you took this for the sake of meeting comp requirements, rather than being an organic part of your build. (-2 points)
This penalty was originally a -2, but after discussion from other entrants, the penalty was reduced to a -1 instead. (-1 points)
No multiclassing penalties. (+0.5 points)
Didn’t assume a favored class. (+0.5 points)

Lillend's Bardic spells were central to build. (+0.5 points)
Minor investment in Flight ability. (+0.5 points)
Heavy investment of monster skills beyond monster hit dice (+0.5 points)
Ended up building a Bard Gish, like the original monster. (+0.5 points)
Note: Please try to list the sourcebooks you use for your build. It makes it easier for anyone looking at your build to check up on rules and mechanics. Especially me when I’m doing judging. No points won or lost here.

Note: a monster character starts with all of its racial hit dice and your Troll would start as a level 6 character. You could also provide, separately, your own ideas on a Savage Species-style monster progression, which doles out various abilities and stat boosts evenly over the course of its first six levels to make the character more balanced at lower levels. Savage Species already has an example of the troll you could start with. No points won or lost. (0 points)

Troll looks like a fun monster choice. (+0.5 points)
A troll that dances while dual-wielding weapons doesn’t match the original concept of the monster, and I’ll critique that later, but here I’m just going to appreciate the ridiculousness of your character idea. (+0.5 points)
Fighter is one of your four build choices. No marks won or lost here. (0 points)
I think PrCs without magic, scaling abilities, etc. sometimes get neglected. I’m interested to see what you want to do here with Dervish. (+0.5 points)
I like seeing an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat used for a somewhat obscure exotic weapon. (+0.5 points)
You have a lot of common prerequisite feats to get here, so there’s little that’s surprising here. (-1 point)
Eagle’s Fury is the exception to the above, it’s a pretty interesting feat. (+0.5 points)

Let's calculate damage. Level 20, you have plenty of ranks in Perform (Dance) so we can presume you have Dervish dance going.
You have Eagle's Claws and Eagle's Fury feat. It is debatable whether you get an extra attack for each weapon equipped, so let's go with the interpretation that you get one extra attack per round regardless of how many Eagle’s Claws you have equipped.
You get +5 to attack and +5 to damage rolls while doing your Dance.
You have TWF and Improved TWF so you get an extra attack at full BAB and one at -5. The rest of your BAB attacks are only for your main hand.
You have 18 BAB, +9 STR, Weapon Focus, your attacks take a -2 due to Eagle's Fury giving you an extra attack, +5 from Dervish Dance, and another -2 since you're TWFing with light weapons.
28/28/28/23/23/18/13 (Eagle Claws) and 26 (Bite)
Let's assume that five of your seven attacks at 18 or over hit
1d8 (Large Eagleclaw) x 4 + 9x4 + 4 (STR bonuses) + 2x5 (Weapon Specialization) + 1d6 (Bite) + 9 + 5 x 5 (Dervish bonus damage)
Total damage is (approximately) 95 per turn.
I think this is decent damage. Not too weak you can't reasonably contribute, but not too overpowered either. (+0.5 points)
You mention crit-fishing, and you are getting a decent amount of hits in, but when you’re TWFing and you’ve got no feats to make criticals more likely (and having two Scabbard of Keen Edges that you power up is rather expensive), and no tools to help against enemies that are immune to crits, I’m just going to ignore that. (0 points)
You have pretty decent HP for a Level 20 character (approximately 228HP) (+0.5 points)
A lot of your stuff that gets you decent power comes online rather late. Presuming four combats a day, your only start getting to make use of your multiple attacks for the entire day after level 17 (you’re much less consistent until then, not good) and your damage is awful if you can't get your full round of attacks off. You don't get TWF until level 12, Improved TWF at level 15, and Eagle's Fury, presumably the reason you took EWP: Eagle Claw, at level 18. (-1 point)
Your saves are calculated correctly. No points won or lost. (0 points)
After stat bonuses, Fort is pretty good, and Reflex decent, but your Will save (which I think the most important) is pretty low after stat adjustment. We'll call it even. (0 points)
You have a few skills close to maximum. Would have preferred more though, especially for use out-of-combat. Call it even. (0 points)
Your Will and Charisma stats are incredibly low. You’re quite susceptible to any attacks that target any of these stats. (-0.5 points)
Made use of the LA Assignment thread to get five extra class levels for your build. (+0.5 points)

Made use of Fighter to get fighter-only feats for your build to help qualify for your class and boost your character's power. (+0.5 points)
A nice, simple build stub. (+0.5 points)
No multiclassing penalties. (+0.5 points)
I think you could have done more to express character flavour outside of Perform (Dance), which you needed for combat. (-1 points)

You keep the non-magical melee aspect of the Troll with your class levels. (+1 point)
Invested in your Troll's skills as a monster, then fully invested in one skill while somewhat neglecting the other. (+0.5 points)
I think you make an interesting case for taking your build with Troll over other Dervish builds, focusing primarily on STR to get your bonus damage rather than feats and/or class features. I don’t think it’s quite as good, but it’s a fun character concept, so I’ll call it in your favour here. (+0.5 points)
This is where I critique the dancing troll not matching the original monster concept. (-0.5 points)
Didn't make use of the Troll's abilities like Regeneration, Rend, etc. (-1 point)
Invested in a few monster skills beyond your monster levels. (+0.5 points)

Note: You have 18 have levels because of your 2 LA. I would start with two empty rows to denote your Level Adjustment, then Level 3 (because you start as a Level 3 monster) with your BAB, save scores and all skills calculated, and continue your level progression to 18 after that. Perhaps an optional Savage Species-style Monster Progression separately. No points won or lost. (0 points)

Tomb Mote looks pretty cool. (+0.5 points)
Mindbender is an interesting pick. (+0.5 points)
Mindsight is a pretty cool feat. (+0.5 points)
Wizard was one of the central ingredients. No points won or lost. (0 points)
Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge are extremely common classes. (-2 point)
Most of the usual feats for a Mystic Theurge. (-0.5 points)
You used the rules of Monster Assignment threads to get 9th-level spells automatically quickened. It seems obvious in retrospect but you were still the first one to recognize this. Great find. (+2 points)

Ninth-level Divine spells and 7th-level Arcane spells? I'm sure you'll be fine. (+0.5 points)
You can go nuclear with up to two ninth-level spells a round. I'd normally critique this as excessive but since this is cheese that only exists specifically with these rules and LA, and you were the first to point it out, I don't mind at all. (+1 points)
Where's your spell list? You're having to cast without vocal components, so you're much more limited than what initially appears. No strategies listed. You haven't taken Silent Spell either, so the normal spell recommendation lists are not going to be helpful here. (-1 point)
Wretch has pointed out that the build would work with an Amulet of Free Speech. This is true, but the reliance on one specific item to make the build work is a mark against it. This would technically be a dock in elegance rather than power, and I would likely apply the same point penalty value to the build. And I would have still preferred a recommended spell list. (-1 point)
You should have BAB 8, 6/4/18 saves. You forgot to include your score at level 20 (18). No points gained or lost. (0 Points)
In a strange inversion of my normal save-based critiques, you have a great Will save (and even taken Iron Will to boost it further), but with all of your natural immunities, I'm not overly worried about your Will Save. I am, however, quite concerned with you having 6 Fort and 8 Will given how little HP you have. I don't think a Weasel (or Rat) is going to help much. (-1 point)and
Wretch has pointed out that most of the issues with Fort are dealt with by character immunities. However, poor Reflex is still a problem.
You have a great Will save (and even taken Iron Will to boost it further), and with all of your natural immunities, I think your Will saves will be fine. Most issues with Fort are bypassed with your immunities too. I am, however, quite concerned with you having a Reflex save of 8, given how little HP you have. I don't think an animal familiar is going to help much. (-0.5 point)
Undead immunities are quite impressive (mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, non-lethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to physical ability scores, fatigue and exhaustion). That's a lot of stuff you don't need to worry about. (+1 point)
HP of 66.5 at level 20? That's incredibly fragile, even by paper Wizard standards. I don't think a Toad is going to fix this. (-2 points)
High combat skills with Spellcraft and Concentration, and good investment with out-of-combat skills in Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: The Planes, and Knowledge: Religion to contribute out-of-combat. (+1 point)
Made good use of Wizard in your build. (+0.5 points)
You only learn how to "speak" to others at level 7? That's going to make communication and roleplay pretty difficult. (-1 point)
Managed to express some character flavour in your choice of feats. (+1 point)
Quite a few dips here to get your build online. Expected, but still messy. (-0.5 points)
Did not assume a Favored Class. (+0.5 points)
No multiclassing penalties. (+0.5 points)

The monster's ability is central to your build. (+1 point)
I can't see this strategy even remotely being pulled off by a non-monster character. Bonus points for that. (+1 point)
Didn't make use of any of the monster's skills. Didn't invest in these skills at later levels either. (-1 point)
Rapidfire divine/arcane spellcasting combos have nothing to do with an ambush disease-spreading monster. (-1 point)

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-18, 02:07 PM

Apparently I forgot to put anything about disputes in the OP. Something for next time I guess...

Anyways. Disputes are an option, PM me if you've got some.

Hello Pavelfly, thanks for judging!

I got these observations on power and elegance

You have no free movement options or the like until level 20.
I get Hustle as early as possible relatively speaking while avoiding multiclassing penalties, I feel that's not nothing?

You’ve done your level 1 skills wrong. Order for character creation is to add skill points to your character, then feats. Knowledge (Religion) becomes a class skill after you’ve spent your 9 skill points. Your actual point allotment is Knowledge (Religion) 0.5 (CC), Knowledge (Psionics) 1 (CC), and Psicraft 3 (CC). You’ve then pick up your Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat and got 2 bonus skill points which you put into K (Religion) which gets you up to 2.5 points instead of 3 points. Your build doesn't techncially qualify for your Psychic Theurge (but you can drop a point of Concentration and be stuck with a 1/2 skill point in a skill.
One of the specific houserules of Iron chef and by extension this contest is that "feats that add skill to the class skill list apply their benefits to the level they are taken". I accept that only Able learner is called out specifically in this contest, but the spirit of it is that I would apply the benefit of apprentice, too.
Besides which, the skill points should be valid anyway? we'd have to split the points of "racial hit die 1" from those of the RHD 2 to 6, but if my first RHD skill pints are psicraft 2(4 crossclass) and religion 2( from the feat), I'm good to go.
Failing that, I know I can qualify for psichic theurge even without taking the apprentice feat, I ranted about it in the entry itself since that's how I started out having failed to notice that psicraft isn't a class skill for psychic warrior :D would lose a good chunk on concentration, and practiced manifester would have to be delayed to level 18, but I'm absolutely sure that we're good to go with just the open minded, we're 0.5 rank away from qualifying fi we didn't have open minded, as you say

I couldn't even see that your character was an evil-aligned character without looking up your choice of deity. in the point buy section, it opens with "CE cleric", I'm sorry if that wasn't a clear indication that the alignment was chaotic evil

Hello Pavelfly, thanks for judging!

I got these observations on power and elegance

You have no free movement options or the like until level 20.
I get Hustle as early as possible relatively speaking while avoiding multiclassing penalties, I feel that's not nothing?

You’ve done your level 1 skills wrong. Order for character creation is to add skill points to your character, then feats. Knowledge (Religion) becomes a class skill after you’ve spent your 9 skill points. Your actual point allotment is Knowledge (Religion) 0.5 (CC), Knowledge (Psionics) 1 (CC), and Psicraft 3 (CC). You’ve then pick up your Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat and got 2 bonus skill points which you put into K (Religion) which gets you up to 2.5 points instead of 3 points. Your build doesn't techncially qualify for your Psychic Theurge (but you can drop a point of Concentration and be stuck with a 1/2 skill point in a skill.
One of the specific houserules of Iron chef and by extension this contest is that "feats that add skill to the class skill list apply their benefits to the level they are taken". I accept that only Able learner is called out specifically in this contest, but the spirit of it is that I would apply the benefit of apprentice, too.
Besides which, the skill points should be valid anyway? we'd have to split the points of "racial hit die 1" from those of the RHD 2 to 6, but if my first RHD skill pints are psicraft 2(4 crossclass) and religion 2( from the feat), I'm good to go.
Failing that, I know I can qualify for psichic theurge even without taking the apprentice feat, I ranted about it in the entry itself since that's how I started out having failed to notice that psicraft isn't a class skill for psychic warrior :D would lose a good chunk on concentration, and practiced manifester would have to be delayed to level 18, but I'm absolutely sure that we're good to go with just the open minded, we're 0.5 rank away from qualifying fi we didn't have open minded, as you say

I couldn't even see that your character was an evil-aligned character without looking up your choice of deity. in the point buy section, it opens with "CE cleric", I'm sorry if that wasn't a clear indication that the alignment was chaotic evil

pabelfly

2021-07-18, 04:05 PM

Thanks for getting back to me, I am interested in seeing what I missed in the various builds when I first looked through for judging.

Hello Pavelfly, thanks for judging!
1) I get Hustle as early as possible relatively speaking while avoiding multiclassing penalties, I feel that's not nothing?

Level 13 instead of 20 is better. Still, that's seven levels after you start with classes before you get your free movement. We'll call that half a point off instead of 1. (+0.5 points)

Good writeups of your spells should help prevent this confusion in the future, but I should also make sure to more closely examine spells and such too.

One of the specific houserules of Iron chef and by extension this contest is that "feats that add skill to the class skill list apply their benefits to the level they are taken". I accept that only Able learner is called out specifically in this contest, but the spirit of it is that I would apply the benefit of apprentice, too.
Besides which, the skill points should be valid anyway? we'd have to split the points of "racial hit die 1" from those of the RHD 2 to 6, but if my first RHD skill pints are psicraft 2(4 crossclass) and religion 2( from the feat), I'm good to go.
Failing that, I know I can qualify for psichic theurge even without taking the apprentice feat, I ranted about it in the entry itself since that's how I started out having failed to notice that psicraft isn't a class skill for psychic warrior :D would lose a good chunk on concentration, and practiced manifester would have to be delayed to level 18, but I'm absolutely sure that we're good to go with just the open minded, we're 0.5 rank away from qualifying fi we didn't have open minded, as you say

I'm pretty happy with your argument here. You clearly made an effort to deal with the issue of needing the skill points to get into the class - even going so far as to take two feats for it - and I wasn't happy with having to take marks away in spite of it. I'll remove this critique. (+2 points)

in the point buy section, it opens with "CE cleric", I'm sorry if that wasn't a clear indication that the alignment was chaotic evil

Sorry, guess I wasn't quite clear enough. What have you done in your build to demonstrate character flavour? What feats, abilities, skills, etc. have you taken to show that your character is evil?

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-18, 04:26 PM

Another dispute.

Hi pabelfly, thanks so much for your judging. No disputes on most of this - I rushed the build and it shows, missed the option to mention things like the Amulet of Free Speech which would have counteracted your point about Silent Spell, and I'm not going to ask for credit for stuff I missed mentioning in the actual entry. One thing I don't quite understand though:

I am, however, quite concerned with you having 6 Fort and 8 Will given how little HP you have. I don't think a Weasel (or Rat) is going to help much.
I... think you meant Fort and Ref here? But really it's just Ref that's at issue; Undead immunities make Wretch immune to the vast, vast majority of Fort-based SoL spells. (Except Disintegrate, of course, but regular Wizards are pretty vulnerable to Disintegrate too, and Wretch has a better Touch AC than most Wizards due to its size bonus and good Dex.)

Hi pabelfly, thanks so much for your judging. No disputes on most of this - I rushed the build and it shows, missed the option to mention things like the Amulet of Free Speech which would have counteracted your point about Silent Spell, and I'm not going to ask for credit for stuff I missed mentioning in the actual entry. One thing I don't quite understand though:

I am, however, quite concerned with you having 6 Fort and 8 Will given how little HP you have. I don't think a Weasel (or Rat) is going to help much.
I... think you meant Fort and Ref here? But really it's just Ref that's at issue; Undead immunities make Wretch immune to the vast, vast majority of Fort-based SoL spells. (Except Disintegrate, of course, but regular Wizards are pretty vulnerable to Disintegrate too, and Wretch has a better Touch AC than most Wizards due to its size bonus and good Dex.)

pabelfly

2021-07-18, 05:15 PM

Another dispute.

Hi pabelfly, thanks so much for your judging. No disputes on most of this - I rushed the build and it shows, missed the option to mention things like the Amulet of Free Speech which would have counteracted your point about Silent Spell, and I'm not going to ask for credit for stuff I missed mentioning in the actual entry. One thing I don't quite understand though:

I... think you meant Fort and Ref here? But really it's just Ref that's at issue; Undead immunities make Wretch immune to the vast, vast majority of Fort-based SoL spells. (Except Disintegrate, of course, but regular Wizards are pretty vulnerable to Disintegrate too, and Wretch has a better Touch AC than most Wizards due to its size bonus and good Dex.)

Hey, Wretch. I really liked your monster choice. I think with a bit more time in the cooker would have turned this into a winning build - perhaps finding a different theurge option with more HP, but Ur-Priest was a great starting point.

Anyway, onto scoring. I originally meant Fort and Ref, sorry for the typing error. I think you have a point about Fort saves, so I'll split the difference with you. (+0.5 points)

As for Amulet of Free Speech, this is a good option for your character, and would have dealt with the issue of vocal components, but then the build encounters a different issue, one of which you would be relying on an item, which I would have also penalized just as much. I will edit the entry to mention the amulet though.

Voldine

2021-07-18, 08:52 PM

pabelfly

2021-07-18, 09:43 PM

I'm just going to say this openly: I really don't feel that it's fair to penalize entries for taking a single level in a class that's required by the competition just because it looks like they only took that level because it's required by the competition.
That's like being pulled over for going too slow in a school zone with speedbumps.

I can understand why people might think that. I'd offer the following points in rebuttal:

Firstly, GreatWyrmGold posted this when setting up the competition:

Monster Mash At the judge's discretion, points for Elegance may be deducted if the chosen class seems unused in the build (e.g. taking one level of fighter before multiclassing into druid for the rest of the build).

So this was a possible consideration mentioned by the topic creator even before judging began. This is also largely standard in other build competitions - Judges usually look more favourably on builds that make good use of required ingredients, make use of required ingredients as soon as possible, etc.

But that's a general observation. Why would I personally choose to penalize entries that make minimal use of a required class when judging? Elegance, to me (partially) is about making best use of your required ingredients. If a build takes a level of a class that it doesn't want to take, that lacks elegance. Losing out on class features or abilities it would prefer, just to be suitable entry for a competition, lacks elegance. A build that makes the same ingredients central to the strategy of the build, I find that much more elegant.

Birchy

2021-07-19, 02:37 AM

Looks likes the judgements are in, time for some thoughts on my build.

Time to review the verdict:

So... apparently no one has tried to use divine crusader to make a dragon a divine gish before :smallconfused:

I'll try make sure i include all bonus and spontaneous spells in future, and maybe some examples for prepared spellcasting.

I had trouble picking the skill due a lack of advice/knowledge. A proper guide/handbook for skills would really help here. Or just some advice on how to pick them properly for optimization

For classes, if i made this build again the first three levels would be Wizard 1/Divine Crusader 1/ Prestige Paladin 1. I'd also remove the Contemplative 1 dip. Using the variant wizard from Unearthed Arcana lets me cast some lightkeeper bonus spells and get a familiar while keeping the bonus feat. A Prestige Paladin 1 dip gives me the entire paladin spell list at the cost of one of my feats.

Also i should probably read savage species, because i'd like to participate in the next round

pabelfly

2021-07-19, 05:00 AM

Looks likes the judgements are in, time for some thoughts on my build.

Let me know if you have any scoring disputes, I'm happy to discuss any issues with judging.

Time to review the verdict:

So... apparently no one has tried to use divine crusader to make a dragon a divine gish before :smallconfused:

Usual choice for such a situation is Ur-Priest. Gives you 9th-level spells in 10 levels like Divine Crusader, but gets more spells and doesn't have to dip for its spells. From a competition standpoint though, much less interesting.

Thread of PrCs with independent spell progression:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?181091-PrCs-with-Independant-Spell-Progression

I'll try make sure i include all bonus and spontaneous spells in future, and maybe some examples for prepared spellcasting.

I had trouble picking the skill due a lack of advice/knowledge. A proper guide/handbook for skills would really help here. Or just some advice on how to pick them properly for optimization

Check out the skill monkey guide.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?88715-Chronos-s-Unalliterative-Skillmonkey-Guide-3-x

For classes, if i made this build again the first three levels would be Wizard 1/Divine Crusader 1/ Prestige Paladin 1. I'd also remove the Contemplative 1 dip. Using the variant wizard from Unearthed Arcana lets me cast some lightkeeper bonus spells and get a familiar while keeping the bonus feat. A Prestige Paladin 1 dip gives me the entire paladin spell list at the cost of one of my feats.

Also i should probably read savage species, because i'd like to participate in the next round

Good luck in the next round.

Voldine

2021-07-19, 06:53 AM

Wait, we only have one judge?

pabelfly

2021-07-19, 07:21 AM

Wait, we only have one judge?

So far. Haven't heard from anyone else interested in judging and it's been nearly two weeks since entries were revealed.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-19, 09:40 AM

Another quick dispute:

Regarding monstrosity, regeneration is an entirely passive ability. One cannot 'make use of it' in a build plan since it's just something they do automatically.

Voldine also PM'd me the "I shouldn't be penalized for taking a single level of fighter just for the sake of the competition" dispute, but it seemed redundant to post that here.

pabelfly

2021-07-19, 02:18 PM

Another quick dispute:

Voldine also PM'd me the "I shouldn't be penalized for taking a single level of fighter just for the sake of the competition" dispute, but it seemed redundant to post that here.

I'm willing to treat the penalty as a -1 instead of a -2 as a compromise. I think that points should be deducted from a build when stuff is shoved in solely for meeting a contest prerequisite, rather than being a valuable addition to a build, but perhaps I was too harsh with my penalty when judging for a new competition.

pabelfly

2021-07-19, 03:02 PM

Regarding monstrosity, regeneration is an entirely passive ability. One cannot 'make use of it' in a build plan since it's just something they do automatically.

Troll is one of the few ways to be able to regenerate limbs quickly and easily. Surely there are way to take advantage of this? Like, a Runescarred Berserker carves spells into their limbs, and a troll could get extra spells to use each day.

I'm not sure I agree that there is no way to take advantage of the Regeneration ability.

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-07-19, 03:33 PM

I'm not sure I agree that there is no way to take advantage of the Regeneration ability.

Allow me to present:

Detach
[Monster]
You can remove a part of your body and use it as a ranged weapon.

Prerequisite
CON 19, regeneration,

Benefit
As an attack action, you can detach a portion of your body that can make a melee attack other than a bite (such as a paw, tail, or tentacle) and use it as a thrown weapon (range increment 20 feet). The thrown member deals its base damage plus your Strength bonus (not 1 1/2 times your Strength bonus). Special attacks that deal damage, such as poison and acid, take effect normally from the thrown member. Ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain attacks cannot be made with the detached body part.

Special
Tearing off a piece of yourself is traumatic. You take subdual damage equal to one-quarter of your full normal hit point total. Damage reduction cannot reduce the amount of damage taken in this way

Hurl your unarmed strike at range!

ciopo

2021-07-19, 03:45 PM

or the +1 throwing amulet of natural attacks... but not returning :D

pabelfly

2021-07-19, 04:58 PM

Allow me to present:

Detach
[Monster]
You can remove a part of your body and use it as a ranged weapon.

Prerequisite
CON 19, regeneration,

Benefit
As an attack action, you can detach a portion of your body that can make a melee attack other than a bite (such as a paw, tail, or tentacle) and use it as a thrown weapon (range increment 20 feet). The thrown member deals its base damage plus your Strength bonus (not 1 1/2 times your Strength bonus). Special attacks that deal damage, such as poison and acid, take effect normally from the thrown member. Ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain attacks cannot be made with the detached body part.

Special
Tearing off a piece of yourself is traumatic. You take subdual damage equal to one-quarter of your full normal hit point total. Damage reduction cannot reduce the amount of damage taken in this way

Hurl your unarmed strike at range!

That's pretty sweet. Good find.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-19, 05:26 PM

New dispute!

Hello Pabelfly, thank you for judging!, here are some thoughts for you :

It seems like you’re going to be either an invisible character with visible items, or someone who can’t equip items, both of which really reduce the effectiveness of your build. (-2 points)
I deliberately stayed away from mentioning equipment at all, firstly because it's a touchy issue within the scope of these competitions and secondly because it's very "ask your GM" how it gets adjudicated when it comes to monsters with different than normal. I was only thinking of that within the scope of "can/can't equip things", that it could be ruled that equipped items remains visible didn't cross my mind at all. The only thing I can say is that the invisible stalker natural invisibility is SU, and I assumed it would extend to equipped items. I can see why you would think that it doesn't, given that the invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) description says that picked up objects remain visibles. I'd argue that a picked up/carried object is not the same as an equipped object, especially if the equipped object is magic, but it's your opinion that matters on this :D. I would like to point out that the only "assumed" item is indirect, from having high ranks of UMD, but that's a side comment on having the versatility of out of combat "things to comntribute to", especially if as an elemental we can't equip anything, meaning our whole WBL can be spent on consumables.
Incidentally, we totally can wand ourselves with gravestrike for at least the sneak attack on undeads. I stayed mum about wand uses given the stigma there is about mentioning items in general, but the skill ranks to make use of them is there! Also, we got the 3/day Cone of cold as a backup plan for those pesky precision-immune enemies!

Not sure how many hits you get in on an enemy - Greater Flyby says you get your dex in attacks per turn but natural attacks are hard-capped at 1 each per turn, but you'd get two of them on your enemy of choice I'm not sure if there is some confusion here? my understanding of great flyby is that we make one attack roll and one damage roll, then use that against the AC of every enemy in the threatened area of movement, up to DEXMOD targets.
If it's easier to imagine, consider it to be the equivalent to a spell doing a 30 ft wide, 30 ft tall, 70ft long line , hitting against flat flooted AC for that average damage, but you roll the to hit only once and you get to pick the targets. In that sense we only have the one slam attack, but we slam DEXMOD targets in range.
Hello Pabelfly, thank you for judging!, here are some thoughts for you :

It seems like you’re going to be either an invisible character with visible items, or someone who can’t equip items, both of which really reduce the effectiveness of your build. (-2 points)
I deliberately stayed away from mentioning equipment at all, firstly because it's a touchy issue within the scope of these competitions and secondly because it's very "ask your GM" how it gets adjudicated when it comes to monsters with different than normal. I was only thinking of that within the scope of "can/can't equip things", that it could be ruled that equipped items remains visible didn't cross my mind at all. The only thing I can say is that the invisible stalker natural invisibility is SU, and I assumed it would extend to equipped items. I can see why you would think that it doesn't, given that the invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) description says that picked up objects remain visibles. I'd argue that a picked up/carried object is not the same as an equipped object, especially if the equipped object is magic, but it's your opinion that matters on this :D. I would like to point out that the only "assumed" item is indirect, from having high ranks of UMD, but that's a side comment on having the versatility of out of combat "things to comntribute to", especially if as an elemental we can't equip anything, meaning our whole WBL can be spent on consumables.
Incidentally, we totally can wand ourselves with gravestrike for at least the sneak attack on undeads. I stayed mum about wand uses given the stigma there is about mentioning items in general, but the skill ranks to make use of them is there! Also, we got the 3/day Cone of cold as a backup plan for those pesky precision-immune enemies!

Not sure how many hits you get in on an enemy - Greater Flyby says you get your dex in attacks per turn but natural attacks are hard-capped at 1 each per turn, but you'd get two of them on your enemy of choice I'm not sure if there is some confusion here? my understanding of great flyby is that we make one attack roll and one damage roll, then use that against the AC of every enemy in the threatened area of movement, up to DEXMOD targets.
If it's easier to imagine, consider it to be the equivalent to a spell doing a 30 ft wide, 30 ft tall, 70ft long line , hitting against flat flooted AC for that average damage, but you roll the to hit only once and you get to pick the targets. In that sense we only have the one slam attack, but we slam DEXMOD targets in range.

pabelfly

2021-07-20, 07:46 AM

Hello Pabelfly, thank you for judging!, here are some thoughts for you :

I deliberately stayed away from mentioning equipment at all, firstly because it's a touchy issue within the scope of these competitions and secondly because it's very "ask your GM" how it gets adjudicated when it comes to monsters with different than normal. I was only thinking of that within the scope of "can/can't equip things", that it could be ruled that equipped items remains visible didn't cross my mind at all. The only thing I can say is that the invisible stalker natural invisibility is SU, and I assumed it would extend to equipped items. I can see why you would think that it doesn't, given that the invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) description says that picked up objects remain visibles. I'd argue that a picked up/carried object is not the same as an equipped object, especially if the equipped object is magic, but it's your opinion that matters on this. I would like to point out that the only "assumed" item is indirect, from having high ranks of UMD, but that's a side comment on having the versatility of out of combat "things to comntribute to", especially if as an elemental we can't equip anything, meaning our whole WBL can be spent on consumables.

I personally don't think that the ability is intended to work on anything other than itself, including equip items, and that would explain why Invisible Stalkers don't come with any treasure. But you have a good point that the Invisibility spell also makes equipment and gear invisible too. The situation is sufficiently unclear, we're definitely in "ask your DM territory". Your point that wealth can also be spent on boosting combat capability with consumable items instead is well-taken too. (+2 points)

Incidentally, we totally can wand ourselves with gravestrike for at least the sneak attack on undeads. I stayed mum about wand uses given the stigma there is about mentioning items in general, but the skill ranks to make use of them is there! Also, we got the 3/day Cone of cold as a backup plan for those pesky precision-immune enemies!

I think an item like "Wand of Grave Strike" would be worth mentioning as a suggested item. But I'm still not convinced on the lack of consistent damage against the various enemies mentioned.

I'm not sure if there is some confusion here? my understanding of great flyby is that we make one attack roll and one damage roll, then use that against the AC of every enemy in the threatened area of movement, up to DEXMOD targets.
If it's easier to imagine, consider it to be the equivalent to a spell doing a 30 ft wide, 30 ft tall, 70ft long line , hitting against flat flooted AC for that average damage, but you roll the to hit only once and you get to pick the targets. In that sense we only have the one slam attack, but we slam DEXMOD targets in range.[/spoiler]

Ah okay, thanks for the explanation. This doesn't really change or alter points given to you. My damage calculations are intended to get a rough estimate as to what sort of damage you might be doing each turn, should there not be an obvious benchmark like levels in spells, etc. I'm happy with the amount of damage you do each turn and the information here doesn't change that drastically to require me to adjust the score.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-20, 10:49 AM

Further dispute!

Apologies for the low score. Hopefully my explanation and scoring gives you a better idea on making a good entrant in the future. I would also suggest taking the time to judge yourself - carefully examining and critiquing different builds can help you work out what to consider in making a good entrant in the future (IMO).

I would also suggest explaining your build in more detail in the future. Take a few sentences to explain your spells, manoeuvres, etc and any synergies they have. I haven’t penalized you for this but you could well have missed out on extra points for features and synergies I may have missed while looking through your build.

Yeah okay. I overlooked spending time on explaining the various synergies as I thought everyone would see it as the same as I do.

Note: This is an LA +1 character, so it would start on level 3 and end on 19 instead of starting at 4 and ending at 20. If you want to compare your level 19 LA +1 Wyrmling to a Level 20 character, the phrase you're after is ECL, or Effective Combat Level. No points won or lost here. (0 points)

Note: Please try to list the sourcebooks you use for your build. It makes it easier for anyone looking at your build to check up on rules and mechanics. Especially me when I’m doing judging. No points won or lost here.

I really should have changed it to ECL, you're right. That's my fault on the source block since I messed up and didn't end up copy and pasting it in to my submission.

Power Attack feels like a waste of a feat and quickly becomes obsolete, if it’s not already obsolete when you get it. Power Attack is a great feat, but only if you support it with your build and your feats, and you haven’t done that. (-0.5 points)

I'd like to argue that there is some support there for it.

His tiny size category grants a free +2 size bonus to his attack rolls.
Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. The former as a swift action spends a spellslot and grants a +spell level bonus to attack rolls for one round. The latter spends a spellslot as a swift action for a +4 bonus to attack rolls for either one attack or Ian entire strike.I(on top of +spell level d10 damage)
Wraithstrike. Even without magic items, he picks up the spell Wraithstrike early on which casts as a swift action and allows him to resolve all attacks he makes for one round as a touch attack. Since monsters typically have bad touch AC. Due to the vast majority of monsters having terrible touch AC, he can sink his attack bonus significantly for massive damage. Much more damage if he has a mouthpick weapon of any kind.

I do not understand what is up with your alternate point buy option. First, there should only be one option. Second, you should not be getting a +4 Charisma item before level 8. You can’t spend more than 50% of your wealth on a single item, and you shouldn’t have 32K gold before level 8. Lastly, if you did choose that point buy and did get that +4 item, you’re limiting yourself to level 3 spells due to how Sorcerer spells are managed. (-1 point)

Fair assessment, but I felt it needed to be mentioned for the case that someone wanted to focus more on the potential beatstick aspects.

No direction as to where bonus stat points are to be put. All I know is that it doesn’t seem to be Charisma (judging on the point buy you give), which isn’t making a lot of sense for a caster with some spells that require saves and one that gets bonus spells from high Charisma.(-0.5 points)

Sorry, I lost that at some point and never noticed. It's a +1 Cha at HD 4, and +Str for every other stat point. This primarily to keep up on his damage and attack bonuses as most of his list is relegated to buffs, or spells that do not require saving throws. The bonus lack of bonus spells do particularly bite however.

You don't qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage. You need 2 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana), 2 ranks of Knowledge (History) and 2 ranks of Knowledge (Religion). I can't see this in your build. This can be fixed if you changed a whole bunch of skills to cross-class skills. Unfortunate. (-2 points)

I've looked at it dozens of times and I'm not sure how I missed them this time; especially since it's not even my first JPM.

I can’t see any reason why your lone Fighter level wouldn’t be better as a level in Sorcerer or Warblade. It feels like you have been forced to take this level rather than it being an integral part of your build. Putting aside how weak Power Attack is in this build, Sorcerer or Warblade both give you +1 BAB, neither of them delay your entry into Abjurant Champ, and both give you another level of spells or manoeuvres, neither of which Fighter does. (-2 points)
This penalty was originally a -2, but after discussion from other entrants, the penalty was reduced to a -1 instead. (-1 points)

I thought Abjurant Champ required all armor proficencies, but during the conception process I think I actually got it confused with Spellsword since that was on the table at one point. I'd argue that the bonus power attack does bring something to the table for him once he gains Wraithstrike at least. I really would have loved to use the Dragonscale Husk but it sadly inhibits spellscasting.

You've done a good job adding spells and manoeuvres for a dragon that happens to be a Warblade/Sorcerer gish but you haven't done much in the way of character flavour beyond that. Like, your character is supposed to be a practicing martial artist, what non-combat skills do you think such a character should have and why? Or, what spells would you pick that aren't necessarily the most powerful, but are good flavour for your character? (-0.5 points)

It kind of goes back to the initial title of him being the idiot savant of Tiger Claw. While brighter than most white dragons of his age, he still suffers from being immature and poor decision making that's only really remedied by age when he recognizes his earlier follies. He basically decides that doing maneuvers is fun and that is his general drive. Kind of like a kid on class who barely passes everything else but does extraordinarily well in his favorite subject and only realizes later that he can't neglect everything else.

You’re getting Tiger Claw manoevers because of the War Wyrm addition to the build, but I don’t see much synergy between a build pumping Jump for manoeuvres, and a character investing in multiple feats to get to improve flight to engage, presumably hoping to use its skills and spells in aerial combat. (-0.5 points)

Jump is actually fairly important to Tiger Claw for a few maneuvers. Claw at the Moon, Death from Above, Soaring Raptor Strike requires a jump check to work properly. Another to note is that flyby attack allows him to take any standard action during his movement, and the vast majority of his maneuvers are strikes so he can ideally swoop around and initiate fyby strikes as he pleases if full attacking is not an option. Against enemies of large size or larger, during a flyby attack he can initiate Death from Above and abuse the free movement it grants from that to get out of danger quickly.

Didn’t take advantage of dragonbreath, dragonblood or any of the dragon's monstrous abilities. (-1 point)

Sadly his breath weapon damage and range scales only by his size category in which age cursing can help. I can however point to one(abeit incredibly expensive) item that can change that in the Crown of the North Wind from Dragons of Faerun that would turn his breath weapon into a cone of paralysis. I could have gotten entangling breath but his short range I felt would have sacrificed some power. To my knowledge of 3.5 his breath weapon to me looked to be doomed to be mostly worthless so I ignored it in favor of what I believed I could leverage. Otherwise, I can only think of one thing from some 3PP Pathfinder material that would let him leverage his breath weapon in a significant way. As far as dragonblood goes, now that I think about it I could've have ditched minor shapeshifting for draconic aura(vigor).

Wyrm of War is a dragon-specific option. I like to see people taking advantage of race-specific options, although there was no cost to you whatsoever. If there had been a cost to this option, besides forgoing other free options, this would be scored higher.(+0.5 points)

If items are in play, then there definitely would have been more significant cost as he loses out on at least one-third of all of his higher level spellslots. Even if they're not, those are a significant amount of extra spellslots he loses out on sacrificing to fuel Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. His lost spellslots are actually why Heighten spell and Versatile Spellcaster are two of his chosen feats so that in a pinch he can cast any lower level spell that he may critically need.

Apologies for the low score. Hopefully my explanation and scoring gives you a better idea on making a good entrant in the future. I would also suggest taking the time to judge yourself - carefully examining and critiquing different builds can help you work out what to consider in making a good entrant in the future (IMO).

I would also suggest explaining your build in more detail in the future. Take a few sentences to explain your spells, manoeuvres, etc and any synergies they have. I haven’t penalized you for this but you could well have missed out on extra points for features and synergies I may have missed while looking through your build.

Yeah okay. I overlooked spending time on explaining the various synergies as I thought everyone would see it as the same as I do.

Note: This is an LA +1 character, so it would start on level 3 and end on 19 instead of starting at 4 and ending at 20. If you want to compare your level 19 LA +1 Wyrmling to a Level 20 character, the phrase you're after is ECL, or Effective Combat Level. No points won or lost here. (0 points)

Note: Please try to list the sourcebooks you use for your build. It makes it easier for anyone looking at your build to check up on rules and mechanics. Especially me when I’m doing judging. No points won or lost here.

I really should have changed it to ECL, you're right. That's my fault on the source block since I messed up and didn't end up copy and pasting it in to my submission.

Power Attack feels like a waste of a feat and quickly becomes obsolete, if it’s not already obsolete when you get it. Power Attack is a great feat, but only if you support it with your build and your feats, and you haven’t done that. (-0.5 points)

I'd like to argue that there is some support there for it.

His tiny size category grants a free +2 size bonus to his attack rolls.
Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. The former as a swift action spends a spellslot and grants a +spell level bonus to attack rolls for one round. The latter spends a spellslot as a swift action for a +4 bonus to attack rolls for either one attack or Ian entire strike.I(on top of +spell level d10 damage)
Wraithstrike. Even without magic items, he picks up the spell Wraithstrike early on which casts as a swift action and allows him to resolve all attacks he makes for one round as a touch attack. Since monsters typically have bad touch AC. Due to the vast majority of monsters having terrible touch AC, he can sink his attack bonus significantly for massive damage. Much more damage if he has a mouthpick weapon of any kind.

I do not understand what is up with your alternate point buy option. First, there should only be one option. Second, you should not be getting a +4 Charisma item before level 8. You can’t spend more than 50% of your wealth on a single item, and you shouldn’t have 32K gold before level 8. Lastly, if you did choose that point buy and did get that +4 item, you’re limiting yourself to level 3 spells due to how Sorcerer spells are managed. (-1 point)

Fair assessment, but I felt it needed to be mentioned for the case that someone wanted to focus more on the potential beatstick aspects.

No direction as to where bonus stat points are to be put. All I know is that it doesn’t seem to be Charisma (judging on the point buy you give), which isn’t making a lot of sense for a caster with some spells that require saves and one that gets bonus spells from high Charisma.(-0.5 points)

Sorry, I lost that at some point and never noticed. It's a +1 Cha at HD 4, and +Str for every other stat point. This primarily to keep up on his damage and attack bonuses as most of his list is relegated to buffs, or spells that do not require saving throws. The bonus lack of bonus spells do particularly bite however.

You don't qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage. You need 2 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana), 2 ranks of Knowledge (History) and 2 ranks of Knowledge (Religion). I can't see this in your build. This can be fixed if you changed a whole bunch of skills to cross-class skills. Unfortunate. (-2 points)

I've looked at it dozens of times and I'm not sure how I missed them this time; especially since it's not even my first JPM.

I can’t see any reason why your lone Fighter level wouldn’t be better as a level in Sorcerer or Warblade. It feels like you have been forced to take this level rather than it being an integral part of your build. Putting aside how weak Power Attack is in this build, Sorcerer or Warblade both give you +1 BAB, neither of them delay your entry into Abjurant Champ, and both give you another level of spells or manoeuvres, neither of which Fighter does. (-2 points)
This penalty was originally a -2, but after discussion from other entrants, the penalty was reduced to a -1 instead. (-1 points)

I thought Abjurant Champ required all armor proficencies, but during the conception process I think I actually got it confused with Spellsword since that was on the table at one point. I'd argue that the bonus power attack does bring something to the table for him once he gains Wraithstrike at least. I really would have loved to use the Dragonscale Husk but it sadly inhibits spellscasting.

You've done a good job adding spells and manoeuvres for a dragon that happens to be a Warblade/Sorcerer gish but you haven't done much in the way of character flavour beyond that. Like, your character is supposed to be a practicing martial artist, what non-combat skills do you think such a character should have and why? Or, what spells would you pick that aren't necessarily the most powerful, but are good flavour for your character? (-0.5 points)

It kind of goes back to the initial title of him being the idiot savant of Tiger Claw. While brighter than most white dragons of his age, he still suffers from being immature and poor decision making that's only really remedied by age when he recognizes his earlier follies. He basically decides that doing maneuvers is fun and that is his general drive. Kind of like a kid on class who barely passes everything else but does extraordinarily well in his favorite subject and only realizes later that he can't neglect everything else.

You’re getting Tiger Claw manoevers because of the War Wyrm addition to the build, but I don’t see much synergy between a build pumping Jump for manoeuvres, and a character investing in multiple feats to get to improve flight to engage, presumably hoping to use its skills and spells in aerial combat. (-0.5 points)

Jump is actually fairly important to Tiger Claw for a few maneuvers. Claw at the Moon, Death from Above, Soaring Raptor Strike requires a jump check to work properly. Another to note is that flyby attack allows him to take any standard action during his movement, and the vast majority of his maneuvers are strikes so he can ideally swoop around and initiate fyby strikes as he pleases if full attacking is not an option. Against enemies of large size or larger, during a flyby attack he can initiate Death from Above and abuse the free movement it grants from that to get out of danger quickly.

Didn’t take advantage of dragonbreath, dragonblood or any of the dragon's monstrous abilities. (-1 point)

Sadly his breath weapon damage and range scales only by his size category in which age cursing can help. I can however point to one(abeit incredibly expensive) item that can change that in the Crown of the North Wind from Dragons of Faerun that would turn his breath weapon into a cone of paralysis. I could have gotten entangling breath but his short range I felt would have sacrificed some power. To my knowledge of 3.5 his breath weapon to me looked to be doomed to be mostly worthless so I ignored it in favor of what I believed I could leverage. Otherwise, I can only think of one thing from some 3PP Pathfinder material that would let him leverage his breath weapon in a significant way. As far as dragonblood goes, now that I think about it I could've have ditched minor shapeshifting for draconic aura(vigor).

Wyrm of War is a dragon-specific option. I like to see people taking advantage of race-specific options, although there was no cost to you whatsoever. If there had been a cost to this option, besides forgoing other free options, this would be scored higher.(+0.5 points)

If items are in play, then there definitely would have been more significant cost as he loses out on at least one-third of all of his higher level spellslots. Even if they're not, those are a significant amount of extra spellslots he loses out on sacrificing to fuel Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. His lost spellslots are actually why Heighten spell and Versatile Spellcaster are two of his chosen feats so that in a pinch he can cast any lower level spell that he may critically need.

pabelfly

2021-07-21, 08:33 AM

Further dispute!

I'd like to argue that there is some support there for it [Power Attack].

His tiny size category grants a free +2 size bonus to his attack rolls.
Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. The former as a swift action spends a spellslot and grants a +spell level bonus to attack rolls for one round. The latter spends a spellslot as a swift action for a +4 bonus to attack rolls for either one attack or Ian entire strike.I(on top of +spell level d10 damage)
Wraithstrike. Even without magic items, he picks up the spell Wraithstrike early on which casts as a swift action and allows him to resolve all attacks he makes for one round as a touch attack. Since monsters typically have bad touch AC. Due to the vast majority of monsters having terrible touch AC, he can sink his attack bonus significantly for massive damage. Much more damage if he has a mouthpick weapon of any kind.

This improves my initial impression of Power Attack somewhat. However, as far as I can see, these same synergies apply to your maneuvers, with the added bonus that your maneuvers also do more base damage. (+0.5 points)

Fair assessment, but I felt it needed to be mentioned for the case that someone wanted to focus more on the potential beatstick aspects.

Sorry, I lost that at some point and never noticed. It's a +1 Cha at HD 4, and +Str for every other stat point. This primarily to keep up on his damage and attack bonuses as most of his list is relegated to buffs, or spells that do not require saving throws. The bonus lack of bonus spells do particularly bite however.

I've mentioned this change in my judging notes but this doesn't net you extra points. I can't give points to you based on stuff that's not included.

I thought Abjurant Champ required all armor proficencies, but during the conception process I think I actually got it confused with Spellsword since that was on the table at one point. I'd argue that the bonus power attack does bring something to the table for him once he gains Wraithstrike at least. I really would have loved to use the Dragonscale Husk but it sadly inhibits spellscasting.

Reading Dragonscale Husk, it can't be enchanted and can't have spells cast on it but I see nothing about it causing arcane spell failure. Perhaps I missed something reading it.

ACFs like Dragonscale Husk are a good way of showing that a level in Fighter was of value to your build, rather than a missed opportunity to get an extra spellcaster or full initiator level.

It kind of goes back to the initial title of him being the idiot savant of Tiger Claw. While brighter than most white dragons of his age, he still suffers from being immature and poor decision making that's only really remedied by age when he recognizes his earlier follies. He basically decides that doing maneuvers is fun and that is his general drive. Kind of like a kid on class who barely passes everything else but does extraordinarily well in his favorite subject and only realizes later that he can't neglect everything else.

Okay, but how is this flavour reflected in your skills? Like, if your character likes to pick fights, perhaps he has a few taunt-based skills or abilities. Or if he likes to test his fighting ability in the wild, perhaps he would have skills in survival, or ranks in Knowledge: Nature. Stuff like that.

I can't really see this sort of thing in your build, perhaps I'm missing it?

Jump is actually fairly important to Tiger Claw for a few maneuvers. Claw at the Moon, Death from Above, Soaring Raptor Strike requires a jump check to work properly. Another to note is that flyby attack allows him to take any standard action during his movement, and the vast majority of his maneuvers are strikes so he can ideally swoop around and initiate fyby strikes as he pleases if full attacking is not an option. Against enemies of large size or larger, during a flyby attack he can initiate Death from Above and abuse the free movement it grants from that to get out of danger quickly.

I’ll try giving an example, since I haven’t managed to make myself clear. You use the maneuver “Claw at the Moon”. This requires a jump check. When you make a jump check, you’re not flying. You’re investing multiple feats into flying, and presumably this is how your character gets about, so there’s a clear lack of synergy here.

Sadly his breath weapon damage and range scales only by his size category in which age cursing can help. I can however point to one(abeit incredibly expensive) item that can change that in the Crown of the North Wind from Dragons of Faerun that would turn his breath weapon into a cone of paralysis. I could have gotten entangling breath but his short range I felt would have sacrificed some power. To my knowledge of 3.5 his breath weapon to me looked to be doomed to be mostly worthless so I ignored it in favor of what I believed I could leverage. Otherwise, I can only think of one thing from some 3PP Pathfinder material that would let him leverage his breath weapon in a significant way. As far as dragonblood goes, now that I think about it I could've have ditched minor shapeshifting for draconic aura(vigor).

If items are in play, then there definitely would have been more significant cost as he loses out on at least one-third of all of his higher level spellslots. Even if they're not, those are a significant amount of extra spellslots he loses out on sacrificing to fuel Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. His lost spellslots are actually why Heighten spell and Versatile Spellcaster are two of his chosen feats so that in a pinch he can cast any lower level spell that he may critically need.

If you want to learn more about breath weapons, check out a Dragonfire Adept handbook. It will have advice on different feats related to dragon breath, and you can choose to apply some of these to a breath to add extra effects at the expense of making your breath take longer to charge up. Dragons also have an innate advantage as Dragonfire adepts since they can have multiple sources of Dragonbreath they can apply feats to.

But aside from that, there are multiple feats that require levels in Sorcerer and for the person to have Dragonblood, and you didn’t take advantage of those either in spite of meeting both prereqs.

Any further questions or disputes, don’t hesitate to put them forth.

ciopo

2021-07-24, 01:07 AM

is the competition closing? will there be a second round?

pabelfly

2021-07-24, 07:32 AM

is the competition closing? will there be a second round?

I hope so, this was a pretty fun comp idea. I especially liked how open the competition was for entries compared to other build competitions on the board that require one specific prestige class.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-24, 04:32 PM

pabelfly

2021-07-24, 05:06 PM

"The Monster Mash judging deadline is coming soon, isn't it? ...oh, it was a week and a half ago."
Note to self: Next time, set up some sort of automatic notification. Idiot.

Anyways, with one judge, here are the final results:

In lucky seventh place is The White Wyrmling of Tiger Claw, submitted by QuadraticGish!
In sixth place is Athear, Lightkeeper of Heironeous by Birchy!
In fifth place is Wretch by NotInventedHere!
Tied for third are Asterion the Devout and Antunia, by ciopo and Voldine respectively!
The silver medal goes to Nachni the Blender, by Voldine!
And finally, as our champion, we have Bitter Wind by ciopo! Congratulations on your victory!

Thank you to all of our competitors for the work you put into your submissions, and thank you to pabelfly for judging them!

Happy to help. It was a fun competition idea.

This contest was a bit of a mess even before I forgot the deadline. It's my first time running something like this, and I didn't exactly prepare. But it seems like people enjoyed the contest well enough, despite that? So I'd call it a success.

I think you did fine.

Which brings me to a question people have been asking me: Will there be another Monster Mash? I think I'd like to! Contests like this are fun, Monster Mash is just different enough from IC and VC to stand out, and the people in the Level-Assignment thread finally have an excuse to design adventurers with all those improved level adjustments. But it also seems like a pretty...gimmicky competition in comparison to the others; it wouldn't surprise me if this competition didn't have as many serial entrants as something more open-ended.

So I'd like to ask three questions to the people gathered here: If a second Monster Mash was held, would you participate? (To enter or judge—we need both!) Please note that "maybe" isn't a very useful answer without some kind of qualifier, like "if the theme is cool enough" or "unless work gets really bad". (And ideally some indication of how likely you think that situation will come to pass, but I don't want to ask too much.)

I'd participate, but only if I came up with an entry that I thought was worth entering. It takes a lot of time to write an entry, and a lot of time for someone else to comb through it all to judge it. I wouldn't do that unless I thought the concept were interesting and good enough to warrant the effort.

Second: If a second monster mash was held, what would you like me to do differently? Like I said, this was my first time, I had to rush it out the door when Debatra told me to move discussion to another thread (no shade, it was kinda off-topic), and I had no idea what I was doing. I've made note of several changes I intend to make:

Find some dispute boilerplate stick it in the OP.
32-point-buy, I don't know why that guy said 30 was standard or why nobody contradicted them until after I made the thread.
Better explanation of what it means for the monstrous adventurers to be monstrous adventurers. Possibly also include a clear explanation of where points should be taken off for someone who can't function as an adventurer.
Explain that monsters rated after the contest starts but before submissions close are valid
Judging period of two weeks
BETTER THEME

These are good changes. My suggestions:

Make it clearer as to what "monstrosity" as a scoring category means, besides "is this a monster". Judge can have slightly different interpretations of this but a better indication, perhaps a list of things to consider (making clear that a judge may have other factors they consider when judging this category), would be a good start. I would also consider whether "being able to communicate without items" is included in this list.
Make clear whether templates can use the assignment thread adjustments or need to use defaults
Add a column to the build table for ECL.
I'd specify that monsters start with their full amount of hit dice at the level of their hit dice plus their LA. For example, a build table for an Dark Template Aranea (Dark is +1LA, Aranea is +2 LA, 3 HD) might start as ECL 6, Dark Aranea with feats and monster and template abilities, then start adding class levels from ECL 7.

Finally: What should next round's theme be? For both of you who don't know, themes are thematic and mechanical restrictions meant to inspire creativity; a restriction that doesn't inspire anyone is a bad theme, but an inspiration that doesn't restrict anything isn't much good either.
The Libris Mortis just wrapped up re-assignment, so I think a theme that encourages people to build undeadventurers would be a good choice. It could be as straightforward as "Undeadventurers," it could be something a little looser like "must use negative energy, negative levels, or ability damage/drain" (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629291-Villainous-Competition-XL-Negative-Nancy). But if you have another idea, feel free to propose it! If I go through with a "next time," I'll pick whichever theme seems most popular and run with that.

I liked the loose requirements of the competition. It gives this competition a bit more of a contrast to competitions like Iron Chef or Junkyard, which centre on maximizing the utility of a specific feat or prestige classes they focus on.

I'd like to see what theme you come up with, I have no opinions as to what should come next.

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-07-24, 11:28 PM

I definitely like the competition.

I can't commit to entering, though; turns out my inspiration cannot be activated on command.

I will note that, as it stands, none of the judging categories includes "follows/works with the round's restrictions". I'd recommend either making that an explicit part of Elegance or Monstrosity, or making it a 5th category along the lines of "Use of the Secret Ingredients" (Formulae?).

ciopo

2021-07-24, 11:54 PM

It was fun "letting loose" with using a mosnter base, so I'm very likely to partecipate again, barring real life inpediments.

I don't know what else there could be you could do different, feels fine as is with what you've listed already. Only thing that comes to mind is if advancing the monster HD is allowed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm). For almost all monsters there would be little point in advancing the HD that way, with the notable exception of advancing enough to trigger a size change. It's a feature unique to monsters that I would like to make use of. Staying at ECL=HD of course.

On theme, I feel themes more in the line of VC rather than IC would fit better with the feel of this competition. I don't think that "make a [specific PrC]" lends itself much to using a monster base, and the overlap with IC is a bit meh : do you avoid any ingredient that already had a IC round? do you "take away" from the IC pool of choices?

So, I'm on board the "broad strokes theme" train. I think there's enough to not run out of steam anytime soon.

Glimbur

2021-07-25, 11:57 AM

I would cook for this and I like the idea of more broad themes. There is a lot of new ground to cover with the monsters with LA, might as well take advantage. Possible themes include: elemental (fire water earth air wood heart), flexibility, large scale changes (war, building something, other stuff), specific party role... options.

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-07-25, 01:05 PM

Hmm, for the next round's theme, perhaps a fear-based theme? Lean into the idea of monsters as something scary.

Beni-Kujaku

2021-07-25, 02:07 PM

Hmm, for the next round's theme, perhaps a fear-based theme? Lean into the idea of monsters as something scary.

I concur with the idea of ability-based theme. I would like to see a "Fly speed"-themed one, where everybody must have a racial fly speed and build on it.

pabelfly

2021-07-25, 06:15 PM

I concur with the idea of ability-based theme. I would like to see a "Fly speed"-themed one, where everybody must have a racial fly speed and build on it.

Or a theme centred around building a monster based on a particular type, like "Dragon", "Undead", "Fey", or something like that.

Voldine

2021-07-26, 02:41 AM

I'd definitely compete again.

I would like to see anything, really. Perhaps make a 'design goal' type of thing for a theme rather than requiring specific classes?

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-07-26, 02:47 AM

Or instead of a specific class, we could build around a specific monster/family of monsters, e.g. Make a Lycanthrope, Make a Skeleton, Make a Dinosaur.

Troacctid

2021-07-26, 03:08 AM

Voldine

2021-07-26, 03:30 AM

The question is, do you go for open-ended themes where contestants have a general goal and can choose whatever monster best fits the goal, or do you go for more restrictive themes where you assign a monster or type of monster that contestants then have to find a good use for. I personally suspect it'd be worth having a mix of both.

I like this idea. Perhaps alternate each contest? Odd contests have a somewhat nebulous goal and even contests we get an assigned monster or category or something?

Thurbane

2021-07-26, 04:21 PM

I like this idea. Perhaps alternate each contest? Odd contests have a somewhat nebulous goal and even contests we get an assigned monster or category or something?

Agreed - a mix of both types would be nice.

GreatWyrmGold

2021-07-27, 12:06 PM

Sounds like people want a second round, so I'll be doing that. I appreciate the suggestions, and intend to post an updated version of the rules once I've written them. (Kind of a busy time IRL right now, but hopefully I'll have revision time soon!)
I might have to radically change the judging categories, though. I'm not sure that just four is going to cut it.

Anyways, themes. It sounds like some people just want broader themes, while others want a mixture. Voldine suggested that odd contests could have a more nebulous theme while even ones have a more specific requirement, which sounds fun, except that 1 is an odd number and "include a level of one of these four classes" is awfully specific.
So as far as theme goes, I'm thinking something like "creature of the night"? Some undead or classic-horror-monster-type-monster, must be spooky or at least spoopy? Does that sound interesting?

Troacctid

2021-07-27, 01:11 PM

Voldine suggested that odd contests could have a more nebulous theme while even ones have a more specific requirement, which sounds fun, except that 1 is an odd number and "include a level of one of these four classes" is awfully specific.
No, this was a very broad, open-ended round. You could use just about any monster you wanted. A specific requirement would lock you into a particular monster, or a restrictive category of monster (e.g. must be a swarm, must be a lycanthrope, must be a beholderkin, must use the Brand of the Nine Hells feat).

Brackenlord

2021-07-27, 01:35 PM

So I'd like to ask three questions to the people gathered here: If a second Monster Mash was held, would you participate? (To enter or judge—we need both!) Please note that "maybe" isn't a very useful answer without some kind of qualifier, like "if the theme is cool enough" or "unless work gets really bad". (And ideally some indication of how likely you think that situation will come to pass, but I don't want to ask too much.)

I'm a big fan of monster characters an the LA thread got my creative juices flowing, but I'm not good with open ended fluff so I'll compete only if one of my build stubs can be fleshed out on theme.

Otherwise I'll be glad to try my hand at judging.

Thurbane

2021-07-27, 04:46 PM

If a second Monster Mash was held, would you participate?

Depending on how badly "IRL" and other commitments are eating my time, I'd do my best.

loky1109

2021-07-27, 05:58 PM

Shall try to be in.

Morphic tide

2021-07-27, 08:18 PM

pabelfly

2021-07-27, 08:52 PM

I might have to radically change the judging categories, though. I'm not sure that just four is going to cut it.

Do whatever you think will make for a more interesting competition. You're doing a good job so far.

Anyways, themes. It sounds like some people just want broader themes, while others want a mixture. Voldine suggested that odd contests could have a more nebulous theme while even ones have a more specific requirement, which sounds fun, except that 1 is an odd number and "include a level of one of these four classes" is awfully specific.
So as far as theme goes, I'm thinking something like "creature of the night"? Some undead or classic-horror-monster-type-monster, must be spooky or at least spoopy? Does that sound interesting?

I think the mixture would be a good idea to start with. You can run a few contests, mixing up "broad" and "narrow". At worst, you can gauge better what sort of things people are more interested in and focus on that.

"Creature of the Night" could be a fun concept - much narrower than the previous contest, but there are still a lot of options for characters. I'd be interested.

pabelfly

2021-07-27, 09:12 PM

...Out of curiosity, how far will the Aranea's humanoid traits go? Because it cites Lycanthrope as the example for what it gets in humanoid form, which implies it should be everything because Lycanthrope is a template applied to a humanoid. So like... If I were to take an Aranea with an Azurin for its humanoid form, would we go with having the Essentia and bonus feat, but only in Humanoid form? Would an Aranea that turns into an Orc replace racial modifiers while an Orc, or apply them in addition to the Aranea modifiers in all forms like Lycanthropes do?

There's... Basically no answer but "you don't actually have any traits of the form you take" that doesn't cause spectacular weirdness and silly bonus-seeking options. And even that has strangeness with having 50 ft. land speed and 20 ft. Climb in "Humanoid" form but only 30 ft. in hybrid form.

Edit: Okay, checked the actual rules on the Change Shape special ability, the 50 ft. speed thing is apparently actually how it works because you lose your base form's movement modes but no mention is made of your land speed, and the Lycanthrope mention is an awkward choice of specification for the Aranea because the vast majority don't have a single locked form like it does. You specifically get the movement modes, natural weapons, and Extraordinary attacks of the form you take on, so you can have certain blendering baked in or loot utilities, while having 50 ft. speed no matter the choice for some God-forsaken reason.

Interestingly, an Aranea shifting between a Small humanoid and its specifically-Medium hybrid form will have its equipment change to match, so one can get up to some interesting shenanigans if a Flying Small Humanoid exists. Good deal of money saved on undersized special materials, for one.

Had a look at the Aranea. Here are my opinions. take them however you want:
- There's three forms. The first is a spider. The second is a spider-human hybrid. The third is a human with some spider-flavored features, and a person with a high spot check will spot these spider features.
- Lycanthrope is referenced to make the point that none of your forms change in appearance. You're always going to look the same when you change to humanoid form, or with any of your other forms.
- I would not assume that you get any features of whatever humanoid form you decide upon for your Aranea. Like, you could be based on an elf or an orc or raptoran (all with the spinaret and fangs of the spider), but that doesn't mean you get elf or orc or raptoran racial features when in that form.
- Come up with whatever flavour reasons you want for why your move speed as a hybrid human-spider would be different to the spider or the humanoid. I'd say it would be good character-building to do so.

From what I've seen from this round of Monster Mash, it seems like entrants will need to make more assumptions about how monsters work when played as PC characters, so some research and justifying the assumptions you make for how racial features work will be important for your build.

Troacctid

2021-07-27, 11:08 PM

"Creature of the night" still seems quite broad unless there are additional restrictions.

For scoring categories, I think there should be one that scores you points for following the round's theme, and one that gives you points for making good use of your monster. So, like, Power + Elegance + Use of Theme + Use of Monster.

QuadraticGish

2021-07-28, 08:45 PM

Late mention, but I would be down for another round.

Beni-Kujaku

2021-08-23, 12:25 PM

Can we hope for another round soon‚ GWG?

GreatWyrmGold

2021-08-28, 10:56 PM

Sorry about that; I have a hard time focusing on any one thing.

Let me dig out my draft of rules for the next round. Does it look good to everyone who bothers to look at it? I didn't forget anything I meant to add or leave a half-completed sentence in there, did I?

Monster Mash #2
This competition is for monstrous adventurers, in part to experiment with the possibilities they offer and in part to make use of the revised level adjustments which Inevitability and Debatra have spent five years assigning.
Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates.
“Monstrous race” is a somewhat vague category, by necessity. No simple set of rules can exclude every single PC race without also excluding some genuine monsters. Entries which flout this rule with borderline-monstrous races risk a penalty to their Monstrosity score.

For the purpose of this competition, all races use the modified level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825). Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not rated at the time an entry is submitted may not be used.
Some races' level adjustments include asterisks. These monsters have traits which render them unsuitable for PC use, such as a wight’s spawn creation, a dryad’s tree dependency, or a genie’s wishes; check the linked posts in the archive. For the purpose of this contest, those races do not possess those traits. In cases where it's unclear which traits are removed, please contact the chair for clarification.

Contestants
You will need to present a full build for your entry, from its first level to level 20. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played in a real game.
Traditionally participants in similar competitions give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Depending on the monstrous race chosen, your character may be unavailable at lower levels; in that case, instead give snapshots at various levels where it is playable. These snapshots should be roughly evenly distributed among what levels it is available at.

Rules
(If you can think of a more flavorful name for this section, I'm all ears.)
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition.

Bans:

Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.
The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
The Illithid Savant and Beholder Mage prestige classes are specifically banned due to their extreme potential for abuse.

Judging
Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Monstrosity.
Scores of zero may be applied in cases of exceptional misconduct (plagiarism earns a 0 in Originality, failure to meet prerequisites earns a 0 in Elegance, non-monstrous races earn a 0 in Monstrosity, etc); otherwise, all entries should receive at least one full point in each category.
Originality: Is it unexpected or novel?
Power: Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Elegance: Is it mechanically straighforward or “pretty”?
Monstrosity: Is the monstrous character’s race used?

Elegance and Monstrosity demand further elaboration.
Elegance measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.
A legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity.

Presentation
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

NAME OF ENTRY

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

Alternatively, you may use this spreadsheet created by (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BG0-5sq4dL9Ooh7-QfXuyHzO4rXSz-CRcj29t6BeUVE/edit?usp=sharing) mattie_p (https://forums.giantitp.com/member.php?66256-mattie_p).
For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list or table.

Speculation
Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

Round Theme: [theme name]

Theme description

Theme rules

Deadlines

Contestants will have until 23:59 GMT [1 month after posting] to create their builds and PM them to the chair. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 GMT [2 weeks after deadline] to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. Deadlines are subject to extension as/if required.

Submission
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
PM: GreatWyrmGold
Subject: Monster Mash #, Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mailbox.

More questions? Either ask in the thread or PM me with Monster Mash Questions in the header. Please use PMs for any questions relating to a specific build to avoid violating rules against speculation.

Houserules/Clarifications
D&D 3.5 is far from a perfect system, and inflated level adjustments are far from the only example of this. Many rules are ambiguous, absent, or just badly-written. I make no claim to fixing the system, but feel some “house rules” are in order:

Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
Monsters with racial hit dice may gain an additional hit die instead of taking a character level. This functions as advancing a monster this way would under other circumstances. You cannot advance any monster beyond the maximum number of racial hit dice noted in its Advancement entry.
Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.
Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.
Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.
Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
Possessing innate spellcasting from your race is treated as a spellcasting class for the purposes of prestige classes which provide new spells per day, an increase in caster level, and spells known (if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-08-28, 11:32 PM

Just as a matter of personal preference, I'd like it if the competition's theme and rules were at the top. I always find it vaguely annoying when I have to scroll through trying to find a competition's ingredients and rules.

The general rules section is a bit weird:

Rules
(If you can think of a more flavorful name for this section, I'm all ears.)
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition.

Bans:

Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.
The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
The Illithid Savant and Beholder Mage prestige classes are specifically banned due to their extreme potential for abuse.

It's a little weird to have one subsection for bans when the whole thing is essentially bans. If you want to divide it up for ease of reading, maybe make the subsections Sources, Unearthed Arcana, Leadership, and Monstrous (for the bans on starting over ECL 20 and Illithid Savant/Beholder Mage)?

Also, it's missing the line that says Leadership and all variants (except Wild Cohort) are banned; it goes straight into the edge case of gaining Leadership as part of an otherwise nonproblematic source.

That's all I spotted.

pabelfly

2021-08-28, 11:37 PM

mattie_p

2021-08-29, 12:29 AM

Please double check the other competitions for their deadlines to enter / reveal and try to plan accordingly so you don't steal thunder or whatever.

Also, and seriously here. Finding judges is an issue. More competition without judges isn't going to help anyone. Junkyard Wars needs a judge, posted entries on the 23rd. Iron Chef Celebrant of Sharess did not get a judge until well more than 2 weeks had passed.

I can't tell you what to do, but my opinion is that the junior competition should sit on its hands until the pool of judges catches up to the pool of competitors.

In my own way I might be contributing to the problem, my new fillable sheets remove a barrier to entry as a cook while doing nothing to make judgment easier. But it is incumbent on the pool of interested parties to figure out how to take turns judging.

loky1109

2021-08-29, 06:49 AM

"Rules
(If you can think of a more flavorful name for this section, I'm all ears.)"
Anatomy of the Monster

pabelfly

2021-09-06, 05:59 AM

Still keen to see what ideas the next monster mash competition has in store for us.