Input requested; homebrew rogue subclass

[Jathaan]

I am designing a custom rogue subclass for a player in my campaign. The setting is heavily homebrewed, and I have already committed grievous balance miscalculations - the party punches far, far above their weight, and CR has lost whatever meaning it might have once had. So, before I introduce yet another overpowered monstrosity to our game, I thought I might ask for input first.

Idea is a shadow-manipulation flavor, for a tanky rogue with good range.

- 3rd: martial weapons proficiency
- 3rd: manipulate shadows at up to 30’ for object interaction as if by Mage Hand. May make the shadows animate and form images, similar to Control Flames.
- 3rd: can make unarmed attacks with your shadow at up to 30’, including grapples; damage type necrotic; on hitting, heals you 1d4.
- 9th: While in darkness, can cast Blink as a bonus action without a spell slot, proficiency-bonus times per long rest.
- 13th: Can attack your target’s shadow, on a hit doing damage to the target as if you had attacked them directly.
- 17th: 1/day Etherealness without a spellslot.

[Zhorn]

You are going to just love this forum
https://forums.giantitp.com/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design
Perfect place for posting homebrew and requesting feedback

[OldTrees1]

Yes this is overpowered.

1) This is rather powerful.
3rd level -> +25 ft melee range, switches to a magical damage type, and heals you 1d4.

2) Why does it get 3 features at 3rd level and will it ever use Martial Weapon proficiency? While technically this grants Scimitar proficiency, Rogues already had Rapier and Shortsword proficiency, and Shortswords are cheaper Scimitars. This really only reads as Whip proficiency.

3) At 9th level, as a bonus action, they get a 3rd level spell (Blink) 4 times per long rest. The 9th level feature tends to be a bit weaker since they also get +1 proficiency (+2 expertise) and +1d6 damage damage this level. If you give them this ability they will have Blink active for every combat. Blink does not disrupt their turn. Instead it protects them between their turns 50% of the time and gives them a free 10ft teleport at the start of 50% of their turns.

4) Huh the 13th level ability seems fine. You are getting increased melee range but that is it. This seems like a great place to add a minor out of combat feature too. (The subclass is lacking the expected in/out of combat balance)

5) The Etherealness once per long rest is a bit stronger than other Rogue subclass 17th level features, but it seems level appropriate.

Summary: 3rd and 9th look too good. 13th is a bit weak but this would be a good place for an out of combat feature. 17th looks stronger than other subclasses, but fine for its level.

However people in the homebrew forum at better at giving feedback and give better feedback.

[EggKookoo]

Thematically, attacking a creature's shadow is very cool.

Mechanically, I'm not sure how I'd begin to determine where a creature's shadow is.

[nickl_2000]

Yes this is overpowered.

2) Why does it get 3 features at 3rd level and will it ever use Martial Weapon proficiency? While technically this grants Scimitar proficiency, Rogues already had Rapier and Shortsword proficiency, and Shortswords are cheaper Scimitars. This really only reads as Whip proficiency.



Whip, Blowgun, Heavy Crossbow, and Longbow.

The biggest impacts are the Whip, Heavy Crossbow, and Longbow. Which, giving a Heavy Crossbow to a Rogue is a substantial boost in power.


As for the third level abilities. It does break some of the standards of Rogue (there isn't an additional usage of a bonus action at level 3). However, the fact that you can gain 1d4 at will breaks the bag of rats test (see the end for a brief definition). By killing rats, you can get yourself to Max HP constantly. This is usually solved by making it an X time per rest ability or giving temporary HP instead of actual healing. Also, the unarmed attacks with the shadow, are those consider eligible for sneak attack?

As others have said, the 13th level ability is interesting and thematic but would be a nightmare in play figuring out where their shadows are.



Bag of Rats Test: An ability that can provide a massive boost to a character by carrying around and killing a rat from a bag of rats

[Amnestic]

Yes this is overpowered.

1) This is rather powerful.
3rd level -> +25 ft melee range, switches to a magical damage type, and heals you 1d4.

Unarmed Strikes aren't finesse weapons, so it doesn't qualify for sneak attack. Being able to deal 1+Strength damage at range once a turn and heal 1d4 isn't "overpowered". I will say that making it healing instead of temporary hit points is a mistake, since a rogue with a negative strength modifier could heal by punching their friends for 0 damage, but that's a fairly easily resolved.


Whip, Blowgun, Heavy Crossbow, and Longbow.

The biggest impacts are the Whip, Heavy Crossbow, and Longbow. Which, giving a Heavy Crossbow to a Rogue is a substantial boost in power.

It's an extra 1 damage per turn over Light Crossbow, I wouldn't call it substantial.

Personally I think it's fine balance wise if you change the stuff from healing to temp healing.

Oh, and you'll need to check the wording on the ranged grapple since, RAW, a grapple automatically breaks if a creature "isn't within reach". So while you might be able to do a 30' grapple attempt, it would instantly break unless there's specific wording around that.

[quindraco]

I am designing a custom rogue subclass for a player in my campaign. The setting is heavily homebrewed, and I have already committed grievous balance miscalculations - the party punches far, far above their weight, and CR has lost whatever meaning it might have once had. So, before I introduce yet another overpowered monstrosity to our game, I thought I might ask for input first.

Idea is a shadow-manipulation flavor, for a tanky rogue with good range.

- 3rd: martial weapons proficiency
- 3rd: manipulate shadows at up to 30’ for object interaction as if by Mage Hand. May make the shadows animate and form images, similar to Control Flames.
- 3rd: can make unarmed attacks with your shadow at up to 30’, including grapples; damage type necrotic; on hitting, heals you 1d4.
- 9th: While in darkness, can cast Blink as a bonus action without a spell slot, proficiency-bonus times per long rest.
- 13th: Can attack your target’s shadow, on a hit doing damage to the target as if you had attacked them directly.
- 17th: 1/day Etherealness without a spellslot.

L3 looks woefully underpowered before I get to the grapple bit; how balanced a 30' grapple is depends in large part on how you're handling its mechanics. How does the target get free of the grapple? Can they grapple the shadow back, since it must be corporeal to touch them? Etc. I would be somewhat generous here - the rest of the subclass is just an inferior Arcane Trickster at this point.

EDIT: That 1d4 healing needs to be temp hp or limited use - you can't give a PC unlimited healing unless you want them to enter every fight fresh. The healing ability means the Rogue can heal to full with a bag of ants.

L9 is fine - when Blink works the rogue won't be able to make off-turn Sneak Attacks at all, and the 60 foot vision limiter reduces the ability's utility for things like scouting. Plus, the V component is crippling for stealth. This is just an acceptable power.

L13 causes concern, as 5E has no mechanics for figuring out where something's shadow is. And I am even more concerned about a shadow-manipulating subclass with a class feature that does not function at all in darkness. I have no way to analyze the balance of an ability this dependent on table houserules for handling shadow mechanics.

L17 feels completely balanced compared to the Horizon Walker version, so this is a hard approve, like the L9 benefit.

[Jathaan]

Thank you, all. I appreciate your help; it was clearly needed.

My take-away:
L3a. Allowing the use of longbows was the intent behind the Martial Weapons feature, but I can see how it is out of place.
L3c. That healing should be temp HP. Makes sense.


Originally posted by Amnestic: Oh, and you'll need to check the wording on the ranged grapple since, RAW, a grapple automatically breaks if a creature "isn't within reach". So while you might be able to do a 30' grapple attempt, it would instantly break unless there's specific wording around that.
Good point. I'll try to write wording to make grappling with the shadow actually work.

L9. Blink would also break grapples, which would make one of the stronger features of their L3 ability useless. I'll reconsider this level entirely, but aim for out-of-combat utility instead.

L13. Yeah, thinking this through, trying to figure out where a creature's shadow actually is would be fiat at best; there are no rules to help me, here.


Originally posted by quindraco: And I am even more concerned about a shadow-manipulating subclass with a class feature that does not function at all in darkness.
That's well put. I like the feel of being able to use another creature's shadow against them, but you are right, it doesn't work this way, and it breaks at night. I will go back to the drawing board with this level completely.

[nickl_2000]

That's well put. I like the feel of being able to use another creature's shadow against them, but you are right, it doesn't work this way, and it breaks at night. I will go back to the drawing board with this level completely.

Also, feel free to check this out. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?481588-D-amp-D-5e-Homebrew-Compendium-2

It is pretty much every homebrew that anyone has posted in the homebrew forum for 5e. It's an amazing resource

[quindraco]

I am designing a custom rogue subclass for a player in my campaign. The setting is heavily homebrewed, and I have already committed grievous balance miscalculations - the party punches far, far above their weight, and CR has lost whatever meaning it might have once had. So, before I introduce yet another overpowered monstrosity to our game, I thought I might ask for input first.

Idea is a shadow-manipulation flavor, for a tanky rogue with good range.

- 3rd: martial weapons proficiency
- 3rd: manipulate shadows at up to 30’ for object interaction as if by Mage Hand. May make the shadows animate and form images, similar to Control Flames.
- 3rd: can make unarmed attacks with your shadow at up to 30’, including grapples; damage type necrotic; on hitting, heals you 1d4.
- 9th: While in darkness, can cast Blink as a bonus action without a spell slot, proficiency-bonus times per long rest.
- 13th: Can attack your target’s shadow, on a hit doing damage to the target as if you had attacked them directly.
- 17th: 1/day Etherealness without a spellslot.

Here's a completely different approach to shadowy tanking:

L3:

Benefit 1: You gain your proficiency bonus in spell slots that recover on a short rest, as a Warlock's spell slots do, and you learn the spells Darkness, Silence, and Enhance Ability. Your casting ability is Dexterity and you may use tools as an Arcane Focus, provided you are proficient with the tool in question. The slots are of a level equal to half your rogue level, rounding up, to a maximum of 5. When you cast any of these spells that have a Verbal component while hiding, an observer only hears your cast if their Perception beats your Stealth, just as for seeing you cast with an S component.

Benefit 2: You gain the Blind Fighting fighting style.

L9: When you cast the Silence spell, you may target an object you are holding or that is not being worn or carried, as the Darkness spell can. When you cast Silence or Darkness, you may target an object being held or worn by anyone, which is resisted with a Dexterity save, as with the Light spell. When you cast Silence, Darkness, or Enhance Ability, you may cast the spell as a ritual, which does not consume one of your per short rest uses. When Enhance Ability is cast on you, the benefit also applies to saving throws of the appropriate type.

L13: You may cast Darkness and Silence as one combined spell, with the same target. You may choose the casting time, range, components, duration, and radius of either spell when casting in this way, and it counts as one spell for all purposes, including concentration. When Enhance Ability is cast on you, the benefit also applies to a second ability of your choice, and you gain Jack of All Trades in all abilities the spell applies to.

L17: When Enhance Ability is cast on you, the benefit also applies to a third ability of your choice. When you cast Darkness/Silence as a combined spell, you may choose for the sphere to be made of shadowstuff. While in shadowstuff, you do not need to breathe. Nothing that needs to breathe can breathe while in shadowstuff, and perception checks based on smell inside it automatically fail. When you deal sneak attack damage to a target in shadowstuff, it must succeed on a Strength save or be restrained by the shadowstuff; on its turn, it may, as an action, attempt a Strength check against your save DC to escape this restraint. The restraint also automatically ends if the target leaves the shadowstuff for any reason.

[Segev]

First off, thanks, Jathaan, for the effort put into this. I am surprised and mildly ashamed that I didn't see this thread and respond sooner. I'm the player in question, and this is a really neat idea. I've discussed it some with Jathaan last night, and then was poking at this off and on as I stayed up too late and then over lunch today. I like the ideas, and want to play with how to make them all fit "shadow control" neatly. There's also a "shadow puppet" thing I fully invented based just on this subclass idea.

However, in order to keep things organized where they're supposed to be, I started a new thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632730-Continuing-discussion-of-a-Shadowmancer-rogue-subclass&p=25078974) for this in the homebrew section.

I do appreciate any further comments. There's a very high probability that my own suggestions are overpowered.