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littlechicory
2007-11-12, 09:43 PM
My fighter bit it on Saturday, so for my next trick I'm looking at making a [Level 7] ranger/halfling outrider, whose animal companion from one class has become her mount for the other.

1st question (not important): Would it sound like a reasonable variation on the ranger to lose the Favored Enemy and spellcasting in exchange for an animal companion from 1st level and animal companion progression as for a druid?

ETA x2: Karsh answered my second question with a species from Races of the Wild that works just fine for my halfling's mount.

ETA: I should probably mention that right now my DM has my Eberron Campaign Setting and isn't letting go, otherwise yes I would be looking at the dinosaur mounts.

Darkxarth
2007-11-12, 10:32 PM
1st Question: I'd say it would be reasonable to lose Favored Enemy and gain an Animal Companion as a Druid. I'd even let you keep Spellcasting, given how "useful" I generally find it in a Ranger.

2nd Question: Sounds reasonable that a Halfling Druid could have a Mule as an animal companion. They probably aren't much (if any) better than a Wolf or a Riding Dog. My suggestion is to work it intimately into your backstory, even if your backstory is only a paragraph long. The Halfling raised the mule from birth and they've grown up together. Once the Halfling took to the life of a Ranger, it seemed natural to take the mule with him.

And might I suggest naming the mule Mary Lou? It just seems right for some reason...

EDIT: In fact, as far as question 1, I'd just give up spellcasting and keep Favored Enemy, since its basically the iconic ability of the Ranger. That gives you your mule, combat styles, and favored enemies. Doesn't seem to bad to me.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-12, 10:32 PM
For the first question - I've seen it said on these boards that the ranger could get an animal companion at 1st level and give up nothing, and not unbalance the game at all. Giving up Favored Enemy would make it all but a certainty.

Kizara
2007-11-12, 10:39 PM
For the first question - I've seen it said on these boards that the ranger could get an animal companion at 1st level and give up nothing, and not unbalance the game at all. Giving up Favored Enemy would make it all but a certainty.

Heh, I have the opposite view. I feel that animal companions are highly overpowered, and that the druid should get his at 4th and the ranger at 6th.

If you gave up other class features, I'd be willing to lower it some.

All you need is a medium sized mount-like (like, has a back and is quadraped) creature to use as your mount. Don't see why it has to be a big dog. A small horse instead (essentially a different flavour of pony (which is already supported RAW)) is not a hard sell at all, IMO.

Darkxarth
2007-11-12, 10:45 PM
Heh, I have the opposite view. I feel that animal companions are highly overpowered, and that the druid should get his at 4th and the ranger at 6th.

If you gave up other class features, I'd be willing to lower it some.

If the DM is planning on lowering the power of the Druid, Wizard, and Cleric, then yes, giving a Ranger an Animal Companion as a Druid in exchange for either spellcasting or Favored Enemy isn't balanced. However, compared to the actual Druid, the Ranger still seems fairly balanced. Not to mention the Cleric or heaven-forbid the Wizard.

Kizara
2007-11-12, 10:54 PM
If the DM is planning on lowering the power of the Druid, Wizard, and Cleric, then yes, giving a Ranger an Animal Companion as a Druid in exchange for either spellcasting or Favored Enemy isn't balanced. However, compared to the actual Druid, the Ranger still seems fairly balanced. Not to mention the Cleric or heaven-forbid the Wizard.

Want to know some really fast and easy ways of doing that:

1) Clerics: Ban dvine metamagic, lower their hd to d6, take away their heavy armor proficiency. Don't allow domains in splatbooks, for the most part.

2) Druids. As I said, nerf animal companion. Now ban natural spell. Nerf the duration and halve the AoE of spells like Entangle, Spike Growth and such.

3) Wizards. Don't allow Orb spells. Make ANY spell that effects someone's status, regardless if it's a fricken ray or not, allow an appropriate save (generally Fort); this includes things like Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation. Make Glitterdust a Fort save (its nonsense that it's Will), and make it and Web 1 level higher.
Ban Arcane Thesis and ban/nerf archmage.

There you go, its not perfect class balance, but its pretty damn good.

kpenguin
2007-11-12, 10:55 PM
How about a clawfoot? Its the traditional halfling mount in Eberron.

Nebo_
2007-11-12, 11:21 PM
Want to know some really fast and easy ways of doing that:

1) Clerics: Ban dvine metamagic, lower their hd to d6, take away their heavy armor proficiency. Don't allow domains in splatbooks, for the most part.

2) Druids. As I said, nerf animal companion. Now ban natural spell. Nerf the duration and halve the AoE of spells like Entangle, Spike Growth and such.

3) Wizards. Don't allow Orb spells. Make ANY spell that effects someone's status, regardless if it's a fricken ray or not, allow an appropriate save (generally Fort); this includes things like Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation. Make Glitterdust a Fort save (its nonsense that it's Will), and make it and Web 1 level higher.
Ban Arcane Thesis and ban/nerf archmage.

There you go, its not perfect class balance, but its pretty damn good.

He's asking about a mount, not class balance. If you want to talk about that, do it in one of the multitude of threads on the subject.

I think it's perfectly ok for a Ranger to get an animal companion from level one, even without giving something up in return for it.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-13, 12:06 AM
Want to know some really fast and easy ways of doing that:

1) Clerics: Ban dvine metamagic, lower their hd to d6, take away their heavy armor proficiency. Don't allow domains in splatbooks, for the most part.

2) Druids. As I said, nerf animal companion. Now ban natural spell. Nerf the duration and halve the AoE of spells like Entangle, Spike Growth and such.

3) Wizards. Don't allow Orb spells. Make ANY spell that effects someone's status, regardless if it's a fricken ray or not, allow an appropriate save (generally Fort); this includes things like Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation. Make Glitterdust a Fort save (its nonsense that it's Will), and make it and Web 1 level higher.
Ban Arcane Thesis and ban/nerf archmage.

There you go, its not perfect class balance, but its pretty damn good.
Sorry to contribute to the thread derailment, but the Cloistered Cleric variant works pretty well as a way to put the cleric a bit more on even footing with the other classes. They lose everything but light armor, take a BAB and HD hit, and in exchange get some more skill points and a bastardized Bardic Knowledge. Pretty flavorful.

GryffonDurime
2007-11-13, 12:11 AM
Isn't there a feat in...I want to say Complete Adventurer...that works like Practiced Spellcaster for Animal Companions? It's +3 to your effective level for it, capping at your hitdice.

Kizara
2007-11-13, 12:26 AM
Isn't there a feat in...I want to say Complete Adventurer...that works like Practiced Spellcaster for Animal Companions? It's +3 to your effective level for it, capping at your hitdice.

Natural Bond. And I'm pretty certain it's CAdv.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-13, 12:26 AM
Yeah, Natural Bond. It's 3druid levels, which is effectively 6 ranger levels of animal companion. Solid.

Kizara
2007-11-13, 12:28 AM
Sorry to contribute to the thread derailment, but the Cloistered Cleric variant works pretty well as a way to put the cleric a bit more on even footing with the other classes. They lose everything but light armor, take a BAB and HD hit, and in exchange get some more skill points and a bastardized Bardic Knowledge. Pretty flavorful.

Yes, that does sound remarkably similar to what I was suggesting, where is that variant? I already checked my PHB2.

Kizara
2007-11-13, 12:31 AM
Yeah, Natural Bond. It's 3druid levels, which is effectively 6 ranger levels of animal companion. Solid.

I disagree. It's "add 3 to your effective druid level". Since a ranger's "effective druid level" is ranger level-3, its then treated as ranger level=druid level, basically what you are looking for.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-13, 12:47 AM
Yes, that does sound remarkably similar to what I was suggesting, where is that variant? I already checked my PHB2.

One of the many from Unearthed Arcana - you can find them in the SRD.


I disagree. It's "add 3 to your effective druid level". Since a ranger's "effective druid level" is ranger level-3, its then treated as ranger level=druid level, basically what you are looking for.

Nope, ranger's "effective druid level" is half his level, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm).

Kizara
2007-11-13, 12:50 AM
One of the many from Unearthed Arcana - you can find them in the SRD.



Nope, ranger's "effective druid level" is half his level, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm).

Ok, you're right there.

So, if you had a 8th level ranger (effective druid level=4), and that feat, you would have an effective druid level of 7. The higher you go, the more the difference, but it keeps you up there, and its not like you are going to take ranger 20 anyways.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-13, 12:56 AM
Ok, you're right there.

So, if you had a 8th level ranger (effective druid level=4), and that feat, you would have an effective druid level of 7. The higher you go, the more the difference, but it keeps you up there, and its not like you are going to take ranger 20 anyways.

Is ranger20 such a bad idea? I had a 15th level archer ranger that did okay. He was no wizard, of course... or cleric... or druid... but he was pretty great all the same.

Hawriel
2007-11-13, 01:19 AM
Yeah if you want to play with the rules giving up your spells or most of your spells for a companion equaling a duids is fine. Although try this

buy a pony use it as a mount just like any other character would. Pump up your animal handling and use the training rules. Then use a hound or a hawk for your companion. there you go. You now have a reliable mound and an animal companion that does great recon. when your high enough level to have a horse as a mount (by the rules and if you get there) then make the pony your companion.

Kizara
2007-11-13, 01:24 AM
Is ranger20 such a bad idea? I had a 15th level archer ranger that did okay. He was no wizard, of course... or cleric... or druid... but he was pretty great all the same.

OP specifically said he was intending on going ranger 7.

And for the record, yes. It's a pretty bad idea. I'm glad you enjoyed RPing your character, but as for CharOp, I could make a fighter/cleric or fighter/wizard gish that is a much stronger archer.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-13, 01:29 AM
fighter/wizard archer? how would that work? It's not like they have an equivalent of Zen Archery for int...

Kizara
2007-11-13, 01:38 AM
fighter/wizard archer? how would that work? It's not like they have an equivalent of Zen Archery for int...

In short: rays are overpowered, there's quite a number of spells that make you better at attacking in general, and you can use fighter feats to power your ray-foo. I don't have the complete build in my head, but I know its very doable.

Although honestly, hellfire warlock does it even better.

Fhaolan
2007-11-13, 03:12 AM
Dire Bat. Everyone needs a Dire Bat. :)

Darkforge
2007-11-13, 03:46 AM
Well getting back to the point of the thread...

Halfling outrider can be quite a cool class.

As for your mount being your animal companion definetely take Natural Bond from Complete Adventurer as it will really help out.

A mule does sound quite fun and flavourful, but i'm not sure if it will be particularly effective in combat. I think that the reason a lot of people go for wardogs is not only their effectiveness in combat (compared to a mule anyway) but also as they are only medium they can actually be taken into dungeons-something that larger mounts often have problems with.

sounds like a fun character anyway, be sure to post once you've finished making it.

de-trick
2007-11-13, 06:45 AM
not sure if adding anything to the thread but I had a dwarfen cleric/hammer of mordian who had a donkey named butterscotch the wardonkey of doom. The whole group broke into laughter for 5 minute.

SoD
2007-11-13, 06:49 AM
Same as above in regards to not sure if contributing properly, but just thought I'd mention one of my planned mounts: I play a chitine paladin of freedom...with a monsterous spider mount.

Not so funny straight off, utill you realise that the DM and one other player are both arachnophobic.

Artanis
2007-11-13, 01:08 PM
In short: rays are overpowered, there's quite a number of spells that make you better at attacking in general, and you can use fighter feats to power your ray-foo. I don't have the complete build in my head, but I know its very doable.
Sounds almost like a Warmage.

Karsh
2007-11-13, 01:19 PM
Sounds like what might be down your alley is a Brixashulty from Races of the Wild. It's basically a big mountain goat that halflings raise and ride around on.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-13, 01:31 PM
Goats, eh?

I'd rather ride some ram.

The Professor
2007-11-13, 02:03 PM
I'd say the first question is reasonable, but it also depends on the general power level everyone else is playing at. Is the Wizard Batman? Does the Cleric have Divine Metamagic? Is ToB classes in use?

My games focus a tad less on balance, and more on RP fluff if it fits, however... We increased the Paladin and Ranger spell lists/spells per day, and gave the Ranger an Animal Companion from level 1, as a Druid of equal level.

As for the Druid... Well, he can have Natural Spell, or he can have an Animal Companion, but not both in our games.

I've found the Ranger to work fine with an awesome Animal Companion, and let me tell you, the Druid hardly lost anything, it feels like.

leperkhaun
2007-11-13, 03:32 PM
In ebberon a group of halflings ride a medium sized dinosaur called a Clawfoot.

Its a 2hd raptor.

Edit: I think its 2hd, it might be one or two more, but not more than that.

littlechicory
2007-11-13, 04:36 PM
Sounds like what might be down your alley is a Brixashulty from Races of the Wild. It's basically a big mountain goat that halflings raise and ride around on.

*brings up RotW and reads the entry* Wow! That would be great for my halfling! It has flavor without reeking of Eberron and manages to be tough without being huge or predatory, yet is WotC canon so my DM can't reject it outright.


I'd say the first question is reasonable, but it also depends on the general power level everyone else is playing at. Is the Wizard Batman? Does the Cleric have Divine Metamagic? Is ToB classes in use?

First off, let me tell you how much you win at life for being Kefka.
Secondly, my concern isn't so much balance (our sorc tends to fling maximized fireballs at everything and everyone) as it is whether the change seems reasonable, because the DM's an idiot and is less likely to tolerate stuff that isn't WotC-approved.


In ebberon a group of halflings ride a medium sized dinosaur called a Clawfoot.

Its a 2hd raptor.

Edit: I think its 2hd, it might be one or two more, but not more than that.

You posted after my edit this morning, saying I can't use an Eberron dinosaur mount because the DM stole my Eberron book. Am I that hard to understand?

daggaz
2007-11-13, 05:11 PM
I always thought it was strange that halflings rode around on freaking Dinonychus' anyways. Its a highly predatory, reptilian creature! And halflings are soft bellied mammals that are just about prey-sized for it! Handle animal checks or not, I would be scared senseless trying to control one of these, let alone ride around on it, or...gasp, sleep in the same camp!

kpenguin
2007-11-13, 08:55 PM
Its not any different from goblins riding worgs and wolves... or elves riding giant eagles for that matter.

Anyway, without dinos, I'd recommend a flying mount. Perhaps a dire bat?

Subotei
2007-11-14, 09:53 AM
In a drunken moment I once considered using a Giant Kangaroo as a mount (well, not really a mount as you're in the pouch, but you understand) for a halfling character. I decided on something more conventional the next day - I should've gone with it and run it past the GM - would've been extremely silly.

littlechicory
2007-11-14, 11:45 AM
Its not any different from goblins riding worgs and wolves... or elves riding giant eagles for that matter.
Except worgs and giant eagles are intelligent, and wolves are basically glorified riding dogs.

Furthermore, wolves/riding dogs only have one significant weapon-- they bite. A Deinonychus bites, tears you up with those giant effing toe claws, and has dextrous hands/foreclaws that can grapple and/or mess you up pretty bad.

Thirdly, where the heck are you gonna get a tame Deinonychus in a typical Greyhawk campaign?