Which classes get more features from base class? Which get more from their subclass?

[Meichrob7]

My DM was discussing running a game where everyone got to pick two subclasses and would get the features from both. The question came up as to whether or both this was balanced, as some classes get more of their power from their base class that others, those who get more power from their subclass could be too strong if they got two different subclasses.

Are there any classes that are particularly subclass focused or main class focused, to the point where it’d be under/overpowered in a game where the characters had features from two different subclasses at once?

Also just curious about the answer to this question outside the context of my DM’s proposed homebrew, so even if a class has conflicting subclass features, if they’re very powerful I feel like it’s still worth mentioning.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If there's a class/subclass you've been wanting to try but haven't because it's considered far too weak, but would be totally viable if you gained a second subclass as well, then go for that. Some subclasses just don't really work (Berserker) which this can't help, but there are plenty that are just way weaker than the alternatives.

I'd be tempted to combine two rather strong subclasses, such as a Scribes/Divination Wizard, or an Arcane/Twilight Cleric, etc. Or maybe an Armorer/Battlesmith Artificer, or an Ancients/Vengeance Paladin, would be fun.

[Yakmala]

The most important thing I’d compare is each sub-classes action economy. If one sub-class is frequently making use of their bonus action or reaction to use their abilities, make certain the other sub-class does not require the same.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The most important thing I’d compare is each sub-classes action economy. If one sub-class is frequently making use of their bonus action or reaction to use their abilities, make certain the other sub-class does not require the same.

Absolutely, plus if your class has a limited-use resource don't pick multiples that need to spend it, like a Cleric or Paladin's Channel Divinity. Pick one that has amazing uses for it that you'll want to use every encounter (Vengeance, Conquest, Twilight) and another that has a much more situational use for it (Ancients, Arcana) but has other features that are strong.

[Angelalex242]

As a defense oriented player, I might consider Ancients/Devotion. The channel divinity improves over Ancients, I definitely won't regret Charm immunity, permanent Pro Evil is fantastic...and Devotion's capstone is a nice secondary emergency button.

[JellyPooga]

Standout potential problems that come to mind include:

Bard: This feels strong to me. Bard gets quite lot out of their subclass and much of it doesn't compete for action economy. Just take a look at Lore+Valour from the PHB. It's all gravy. Cutting Words is a Reaction vs. Combat Inspiration being an enhancement to regular Bardic Inspiration. The bonus proficiencies don't overlap. Additional Magical Secrets has no impact on Extra Attack and Peerless Skill operates independently of Battle Magic. Conceivably, a Bard could use all of these subclass features in a single round of combat! Compare this to, for example, the Cleric who might get a lot of additional utility from expanded spell lists, but by-and-large a lot of competition for action economy and some overlapping features (e.g. a Nature/Tempest Cleric, thematic as it might be, has overlap on heavy armour proficiency and Divine Strike, even some spells and Dampen Elements competes for reaction with Wrath of the Storm).

Rogue and Fighter: Taking Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight as your extra is going to be an automatic choice, which isn't a choice at all.

Druid: Hoo boy, the Druid. Moon Druid is a very strong subclass, almost bordering on being a class unto itself. I don't think it'll break the game to add this to any of the other subclasses, but it'll certainly be a very strong choice, if not an automatic one, like AT/EK is for Rogue/Fighter. For Druids that were going Moon anyway, adding additional features from other subclasses is just spicy.

Paladin: Passive bonuses from aura's plus a variety of very different additional features make multi-subclasses strong here. Like the Bard, there's little overlap and possibly even more synergy. Without having looked too closely, this might be one of the most problematic.

Warlock: Hmm, the Warlock. First point of order here is "what is their subclass?" Is it their Patron or their Pact? Multiple Patrons feels...thematically awkward. And potentially very very powerful. Multiple Pacts feels a little weak. This has issues that go beyond game balance.

[Eldariel]

The question is heavily class-dependent too. Like Fighter as a base chassis gives you a fair bit. Champion on top of it? Mostly just a Fighter. Battlemaster or Eldritch Knight? You get a whole subsystem from your subclass. Same goes for Rogues. Arcane Trickster opens up a whole subsystem while Assassin is mostly a Rogue with incidental bonuses if it happens to get surprise. Thief is a bit weird in that it interacts with a non-codified part of the system (it's great with lots of class restricted magic items but not so great without them higher up).

Trying to look at the classes as a whole:
- Artificer: Base class gives spellcasting and item infusions. Subclass determines party role and offers a large list of automatically prepared bonus spells that often expand the spell list. Fairly high impact for subclass.

- Barbarian: Base class gives Rage, Reckless Attack, Extra Attack and some basic abilities. Subclass builds off Rage and finetunes details. Ultimately subclass not all that impactful.

- Bard: Base class gives casting, Inspiration, Magical Secrets & Expertises. Subclass generally gives extra uses for Inspiration, some proficiencies, and utility abilities. Given how much stuff the core chassis gives in relation to the subclass I'd be tempted to say subclass isn't all that impactful, but Bard subclasses have abilities that have a huge impact on how the class plays (Cutting Words, Unsettling Words, Extra Magical Secrets, Flourish + Proficiencies) especially impacting action economy so ultimately I would rate it as fairly high impact subclasses.

- Cleric: Base class gives proficiencies, spellcasting off a huge list including the spells that will mostly define how you play the class, channel divinity (with Tasha's, the more important half being Harness Divine Power also from base class) & Divine Intervention. Subclasses give a significant expansion to the spell list (including off-class spells), an extra use or two for Channel Divinity and one random (often fairly significant) ability. In this case, while the spell list expansion is often important, core Cleric chassis is so powerful and so set in playstyle that I'd say the subclass is actually fairly low impact.

Note: My take on Clerics would be different without Tasha's giving everyone a really solid Channel Divinity.

- Druid: Base class gives you Wildshape, spellcasting off a huge list including the spells that will mostly define how you play the class alongside miscellaneous bonuses. Subclass mostly interacts with your spellcasting and wildshape. Subclass fairly high impact, because base Wildshape is somewhat weak and altering that lets you get a ton of extra value also determining how the class is played while at it.

- Fighter: Base class gives you proficiencies, extra attacks, action surge, and minor durability increases. Subclass gives you a whole mechanical subsystem in two cases or some significant abilities in the others. I'd say that, while the subclasses don't change the playstyle of the class, they do offer a lot of power compared to the base class so the subclasses have average impact.

- Monk: Base chassis gives you martial arts, base chassis protections, stunning strike and extra attack. Subclass gives you spellcasting, utility, mobility options and additional offensive tools. I'd say aside from Stunning Strike, subclasses give you the best uses of ki but as Stunning Strike exists, they compete for the same sparse resources. Still, Shadow Monk specifically adds a lot to the base chassis by giving it access to a bunch of 2nd level spells. This is a case where subclasses vary in quality but ultimately I'd say subclasses have average impact.

- Paladin: All Paladins have Smite, Aura of Protection, Extra Attack, Channel Divinity & spellcasting. The subclasses add some nice auras and abilities alongside expanded/automatic spell lists, but even taking all of that into account, the core chassis is so broad that I'd say subclasses have a fairly low impact.

- Ranger: All Rangers have the basic Expertise/Tireless/Speed boost, extra attack, fighting style & spellcasting. Ranger subclasses give few more spells (but given the restricted list, this is actually pretty important - more so just getting more spells than getting specific spells though), and mostly useful abilities. Here, I'd say the subclass has fairly low impact, because they don't really alter things that significantly. It's mostly the base chassis abilities + bonus spells know and then few abilities.

- Rogue: All Rogues have Expertises, Cunning Action, Sneak Attack, Reliable Talent, and the assortment of defensive abilities. Subclasses are pretty hard to evaluate, since there's Arcane Trickster that gets a metric ton of stuff and then all the others that get fairly little. Unsurprisingly, Arcane Trickster is generally by far the best option. None of them really change how the class plays but they do make it better at what it does. Ultimately, I'd say subclasses have fairly low impact except for Arcane Trickster that has average impact.

- Sorcerer: All Sorcerers have spellcasting & metamagic. Newer subclasses add extra spells known (again, mostly relevant for increasing the raw number of spells known rather than the spells themselves, though those matter in few cases too) and all add some interesting features. Notable subclasses include the Divine Soul, with its access to a whole new spell list, Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul with their expanded spell lists and few notable spells not normally on Sorcerer list. They all also have some potent class features. For these subclasses, I'd say they have average impact. Others have fairly low impact.

- Warlock: The odd class out in having two "subclass level choices" in patron and pact, base Warlock gets their strange spellcasting and invocations. Pact opens up more invocations and gives a one-time bonus, while Patron gives random bonuses and opens up more spells. Whether Patron or Pact is more influential is arguable. Both are important: Celestial and Hexblade in particular let the character fulfill completely different roles from the ordinary Warlock while Pact of the Blade, Pact of the Chain, and Pact of the Tome all open up a wealth of fairly powerful tricks in terms of the related invocations. Warlock is obviously the class most defined by subclass, but it is non-trivial to rate. Rating the two separately, I'd say Patron has fairly high impact while Pact has average impact and together they have high impact.

- Wizard: All Wizards get spellcasting and in this case, ritual casting has to be mentioned specifically since Wizards get the best form of it in the game alongside the best rituals, and Arcane Recovery. And...that's about it (for the first 17 levels). The class whose core chassis is the strongest of all classes, somewhat surprisingly the subclasses are actually extremely potent, getting some of the most outlandish abilities in the game (Portent, Illusory Reality, Chronal Shift just to name a few). As such, while there's little room to improve in the ridiculous core chassis, I'd actually say that Wizard subclasses have an average impact - probably more so than the Cleric Domains.


So that peer reviewed list formed in accordance to good scientific practices would be as follows:
Low impact: Barbarian
Fairly low impact: Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer [Weak subclasses]
Average impact: Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Wizard, Sorcerer [Good subclasses], Cleric [without Tasha's]
Fairly high impact: Artificer, Bard, Druid
High impact: Warlock

[Angelalex242]

A perhaps better question is, how much stronger are these characters over the standard?

Is a Dual subclass Paladin equal to a single subclass Paladin 1 level higher? 2 levels higher?

[quindraco]

My DM was discussing running a game where everyone got to pick two subclasses and would get the features from both. The question came up as to whether or both this was balanced, as some classes get more of their power from their base class that others, those who get more power from their subclass could be too strong if they got two different subclasses.

Are there any classes that are particularly subclass focused or main class focused, to the point where it’d be under/overpowered in a game where the characters had features from two different subclasses at once?

Also just curious about the answer to this question outside the context of my DM’s proposed homebrew, so even if a class has conflicting subclass features, if they’re very powerful I feel like it’s still worth mentioning.

One of the immediate issues here is multiclass dips - now anyone who takes a 1-dip into cleric gets two subclasses, rather than one. That's potentially ludicrously powerful.

Here's a low-key example:
Warlock (assuming two subclasses means two patrons but still only one pact): Hexblade + Genie (Dao), takes 1 level.
Sorcerer: Shadow + Divine, takes 1 level.
Mix that with Paladin and you have ludicrous levels of power nerfed only by the usual penalty sorcadins take to their spell slot progression while leveling up paladin. The lock and sorc levels can be raised for more power, but it's not necessary.

[Pex]

Warlock is the most diverse in my opinion. With the obvious exception of Agonizing Eldritch Blast, and even then I've seen warlock players not have it, I can't say I've ever seen two warlocks be alike. There are so many combinations between Patron, Pact, Spells Known, and Invocations, I don't see a repeated pattern of behavior. No two warlocks have played the same. In contrast: Every cleric goes Spiritual Weapon and Weapon/Cantrip. Every rogue hides then sneak attack. Every Druid is either a Moon Druid or casts Moonbeam. Every Bard gives Inspiration and casts Dissonant Whispers. Barbarians rage and reckless attack. It's stereotypical and a bit exaggeration, but I'm not that far off the mark. With Warlock, a Fiend Tome plays different than Fiend Chain and both are different from Old One Tome and Fey Chain. I like this about the warlock a lot.

[RedMage125]

So that peer reviewed list formed in accordance to good scientific practices would be as follows:
Low impact: Barbarian
Fairly low impact: Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer [Weak subclasses]
Average impact: Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Wizard, Sorcerer [Good subclasses], Cleric [without Tasha's]
Fairly high impact: Artificer, Bard, Druid
High impact: Warlock

Excellent analysis, and I mostly agree.

Except Ranger. I would increase the impact of Ranger subclasses. Namely because the Ranger (pre-Tasha, anyway) is a fairly weak class, in terms of impactful class features. But a lot of subclass options change things. Beast Master drastically changes how the Ranger operates in and out of combat, Gloomstalker is fairly powerful, and Monster Slayer increases the damage they do every round, and even though Tasha's helped balance out and improve some of the base class features, it also gave us Swarmkeeper.

To me, "impact" is not just about power (although it can be). I feel like Ranger subclasses (especially Beast Master and Swarmkeeper) dramatically change the class itself.

[Mitchellnotes]

Just to add to the discussion, lots of subclasses build on shared resource pools of the base class. Most barbarian subclasses build on rage, lots of druids build on wildshape, clerics on channel divinity, etc.

Those that dont are going to be more powerful, and also those that allow better use of action economy.

Fighters snd warlocks i think would be clear winners. For fighter, battlemaster, psi warrior, and rune knight all build on the class pretty easily, same with eldritch knight etc. Rune knight/battlemaster would be very strong with a lot of options all recharging on a short rest.

Warlock is similar with all the patrons providing different options. Genie/celestial, hexblade/fathomless, undead/genie would all be pretty great.

Bards are another winner. Lore and eloquence would make any other subclass stronger. Wizard is similar with divination which is universally applicable.

Paladins get lots of stacking resources, but still hit a resource wall

I think the classes that lose the most are barbarian (both make rage better, but are limited by rages), clerics (limit on channel divinities), maybe monks and sorcs (limit on ki and sorc points, though there would be strong combos for both)

[diplomancer]

I'll keep it simple. Bards have 3 levels where they get subclass features. Fighters have 5. I think all the others have 4, but Cleric, Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer, and Paladin are notable for getting their 4th feature only at tier 4. Clerics also all get a very bland subclass feature at 8. It's so bland that Tasha's replaced it with a class feature.

So, in order, from least influence from subclass to most:
- Bard
- Cleric
- Paladin
- Sorcerer
-Rogue
-Monk
- Everyone else
- Fighter

Of course, many criticisms to this method; one could say that Clerics get subclass features at every odd level below 10 (domain spell). But it's quick and easy. Any analysis more in depth will start facing diminishing returns, I believe.

[Bobthewizard]

I'd go for classes that get extra spells prepared from their subclasses. Aberrant Mind/Clockwork Soul would give 20 extra spells over the other sorcerer subclasses.

Two cleric subclasses give a lot of known spells - I'd love to combine Trickery and Light to get a lot of great spells on a cleric chassis. It would be fun to play too. Blasting, deception, and healing all in one.

Paladin subclasses give a lot. The spell lists of Redemption and Vengeance mix well together. Vengeance and Conquest would be a fun theme to mix.

Wizard, warlock, ranger, bard, most druid, and the other sorcerer subclasses don't let you prepare any extra spells.

[kore]

Warlock: Hmm, the Warlock. First point of order here is "what is their subclass?" Is it their Patron or their Pact? Multiple Patrons feels...thematically awkward. And potentially very very powerful. Multiple Pacts feels a little weak. This has issues that go beyond game balance.



- Warlock: The odd class out in having two "subclass level choices" in patron and pact, base Warlock gets their strange spellcasting and invocations. Pact opens up more invocations and gives a one-time bonus, while Patron gives random bonuses and opens up more spells. Whether Patron or Pact is more influential is arguable. Both are important: Celestial and Hexblade in particular let the character fulfill completely different roles from the ordinary Warlock while Pact of the Blade, Pact of the Chain, and Pact of the Tome all open up a wealth of fairly powerful tricks in terms of the related invocations. Warlock is obviously the class most defined by subclass, but it is non-trivial to rate. Rating the two separately, I'd say Patron has fairly high impact while Pact has average impact and together they have high impact.


Warlock (assuming two subclasses means two patrons but still only one pact): Hexblade + Genie (Dao), takes 1 level.


It's never the Pact Boon. This question/confusion has been coming up a lot lately, like with the new UA; or maybe I'm just noticing it. Perhaps this isn't the best proof but the obvious thing is that all new "subclasses" presented outside of the PHB revolve around the Patron. Pact Boon is just a Warlock feature choice, like Invocations are choices, that can be mixed and matched with any Patron. The Patron is the feature archetype that most differentiates a warlock.