Poison bypassing immunities

[Gransoley]

While searching for some ways to bypass poison immunities i found many solutions, but there's one post that is haunting me.
The text said:
"I've also seen poisons in a module that were "abyssal poison" that specifically said people immune to poison were not immune to this."
Now does anyone knows if such thing even exist? And if it does where can i find it???

[Starbuck_II]

You could curse them:
contagion (Flesh Rot)

Magic-Infused Poisons from Drow:
As masters of their craft and natural manipulators of magical energies, cruel drow alchemists have discovered ways to infuse spell effects into the venoms they concoct. Immunity to mundane poisons provides no resistance to these new substances, nor does spell resistance; however, neutralize poison and slow poison are still effective. A successful dispel magic against a caster level equal to 1/2 the poison's Fortitude save DC likewise removes its effects.

Cheapest is slow trait: 300 gp a pop both primary and secondary are -10 speed for an hour each.

Also, Magic Poisons - (Dragon #322)

EPIC poisons are also able to bypass immunity

Book of Vile Darkness: Devilseye and Basilisk Breath affect devils normally immune.


Libris Mortis: positoxins are poisons that affect undead, only they are made with Alchemy.

Not a poison:
Blister Oil (Races of Stone): an alchemical substance, but dirt cheap (5gp for 1-8 uses), and works as an injury poison to deal some damage and penalize Dex checks and reflex saves.


If you're playing Pathfinder, a level 8 Alchemist can select the Celestial Poisons discovery, which causes any poison they administer to a weapon to bypass the innate immunity to poisons of Undead and Outsiders

[Khedrac]

The poison of Molydeus demons (FCI page 46) has half effect against those immune to poison so it could be a variant of that.

[Gransoley]

Just to clarify, i know of ways to bypass poison immunity, but i was curious of the specific one mentioned in a really old thread, since the post was extremely generic and somewhat intriguing. But besides that yeah, Both spells from serpent kingdom, spark of life, ravages, dotu magical poisons, positoxins, serrtous etc etc
I was just curious if there actually was another one.

Also all of the things that act like a poison but actually are not a poison are a no go since they can't be modified with kalamar rules to modify poisons

[Jowgen]

Chokesnake, Symbiont, Demon, Tanar'ri, 6 HD, Dungeon Magazine 148 p082.

Poison (Su): Injury, Fortitude DC 17, 1d6 Con / 1d6 Con. Chokesnake venom is supernaturally potent and can even harm some creatures normally immune to poison (with the exception of constructs, ooze, plants and undead). Against all other targets normally immune to poison, it inflicts 1d4 Con/1d4 Con.


It is an EXCELLENT bindable critter to use as a poison tap.

[ShurikVch]

Chokesnake, Symbiont, Demon, Tanar'ri, 6 HD, Dungeon Magazine 148 p082.

Poison (Su): Injury, Fortitude DC 17, 1d6 Con / 1d6 Con. Chokesnake venom is supernaturally potent and can even harm some creatures normally immune to poison (with the exception of constructs, ooze, plants and undead). Against all other targets normally immune to poison, it inflicts 1d4 Con/1d4 Con.


It is an EXCELLENT bindable critter to use as a poison tap.
Firstly: every single Molydeus would hate you on sight (since those "snakes" are, actually, harvested from Molydei - which causing unavoidable death of the demon)
And secondly: Ego 48. Are you good enough to control it, or would it control you instead?

[Gransoley]

Chokesnake, Symbiont, Demon, Tanar'ri, 6 HD, Dungeon Magazine 148 p082.

Poison (Su): Injury, Fortitude DC 17, 1d6 Con / 1d6 Con. Chokesnake venom is supernaturally potent and can even harm some creatures normally immune to poison (with the exception of constructs, ooze, plants and undead). Against all other targets normally immune to poison, it inflicts 1d4 Con/1d4 Con.


It is an EXCELLENT bindable critter to use as a poison tap.

Ironically i was looking for symbiont with more than 2 HD for something else and this hits both, amazing.
Having said that it's ok, u'll still need a lot more but this is another tool to make poisons viable. For the ego problem is really minor, there are PLENTY and i mean plenty of ways of boosting saving throws over the cap.

[Anthrowhale]

Potentially you can summon an Aspect of Sertrous (the elder evil) which has a "Poisoner's Breath" that suppresses poison immunity for anyone who breathes it in a 240' radius spread. Using a Mother Cyst you can potentially turn it into a useful minion.

[Gransoley]

Potentially you can summon an Aspect of Sertrous (the elder evil) which has a "Poisoner's Breath" that suppresses poison immunity for anyone who breathes it in a 240' radius spread. Using a Mother Cyst you can potentially turn it into a useful minion.

Yeah this is, as probably everyone who ever dealt with poison knows, the best solution. But at mid to low level it's rare for DMs to allow you going around with an aspect of sertrous, even if legally obtained.

[Calthropstu]

Technically, if someone is immune to the effects of poison, and an effect of the poison is to bypass poison immunity, wouldn't you be immune to the poison effect that negates immunity?

[Anthrowhale]

Technically, if someone is immune to the effects of poison, and an effect of the poison is to bypass poison immunity, wouldn't you be immune to the poison effect that negates immunity?

Poisoner's Breath is a supernatural effect rather than a poison, so you need something like antimagic field to keep it from working.

[Calthropstu]

Poisoner's Breath is a supernatural effect rather than a poison, so you need something like antimagic field to keep it from working.

I was more referring to the abyssal poison and any other poison that claims it bypasses immunity. If it's poison, immunity is immune to the effects. So an effect that claims to bypass immunity, on the poison itself, is meaninglessbecause you're immune to that effect.

[Gransoley]

I was more referring to the abyssal poison and any other poison that claims it bypasses immunity. If it's poison, immunity is immune to the effects. So an effect that claims to bypass immunity, on the poison itself, is meaninglessbecause you're immune to that effect.

Specific trumps general, i see no reason RAW it would be like this. Also iirc poison immunity gives you immunity to the initial and secondary effects of a poison, bypassing poison immunity, at least in some examples like the magical poisons in DotU, is not considered neither of them but a general characteristic of the poison category.

[Calthropstu]

Specific trumps general, i see no reason RAW it would be like this. Also iirc poison immunity gives you immunity to the initial and secondary effects of a poison, bypassing poison immunity, at least in some examples like the magical poisons in DotU, is not considered neither of them but a general characteristic of the poison category.

Strange. I can't seem to find where "immune to poison" is defined. I see it in lots of monster entries. And the monk merely states "Gains immunity to poisons of all kind." Where is this?

[Gransoley]

Strange. I can't seem to find where "immune to poison" is defined. I see it in lots of monster entries. And the monk merely states "Gains immunity to poisons of all kind." Where is this?

I'm actually having the same problem, RC doesn't actually define it and other book, at least to my knowledge don't do so either. Still I don't see how general would trump specific but now I'm questioning where my memory of poison immunity comes from.

[mattie_p]

The basic rules are in the SRD, under special abilitiespoison (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison)


Creatures with natural poison attacks are immune to their own poison. Nonliving creatures (constructs and undead) and creatures without metabolisms (such as elementals) are always immune to poison. Oozes, plants, and certain kinds of outsiders are also immune to poison, although conceivably special poisons could be concocted specifically to harm them.

Constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead pick up immunity to poison as part of their type traits.

[Gransoley]

Strange. I can't seem to find where "immune to poison" is defined. I see it in lots of monster entries. And the monk merely states "Gains immunity to poisons of all kind." Where is this?

Actually I'm having the same problem, even in RC there is no proper definition, it'll need a thorough investigation.
That also makes me doubt my memory of where the idea of immunity to effect comes from. Having said that still specific trumps general, i see no reason why this wouldn't apply.

[Calthropstu]

The basic rules are in the SRD, under special abilitiespoison (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison)



Constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead pick up immunity to poison as part of their type traits.

Yes, but it doesn't say what poison immunity DOES. If poison immunity doesn't have any other text, then I would, raw, be correct.

[Thurbane]

Poison is defined, both in the glossary and SRD.

Immunity is defined: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_immunity&alpha=


immunity
A creature that has immunity to an effect is never harmed (or helped) by that effect. A creature cannot suppress an immunity in order to receive a beneficial effect.

I think that trying to read that Poison Immunity doesn't mean that you are immune to poison is a bit of a deliberate misreading...unless you want to argue semantics that poison isn't an "effect".

[Gransoley]

Yes, but it doesn't say what poison immunity DOES. If poison immunity doesn't have any other text, then I would, raw, be correct.

Again, you're still forgetting that specific trumps general.

[Thurbane]

Yes, but it doesn't say what poison immunity DOES. If poison immunity doesn't have any other text, then I would, raw, be correct.

Rather weak as citations go, but I found this is an adventure stat block for an Imp:


Poison Immunity: ignore all poison damage.

[Delta_tea]

There's also the magic route if you have a Wizard/Sorcerer that's taken the spell.

Aberrate, a level 1 Transmutation spell from Book of Vile Darkness.
If they fail the Fort save, they get a type change to Aberrate.

So if they were Undead with all of those immunities, they now have lost all of them and can be crited, poisoned and drowned. For example.

[Psyren]

Technically, if someone is immune to the effects of poison, and an effect of the poison is to bypass poison immunity, wouldn't you be immune to the poison effect that negates immunity?

I would definitely apply specific trumps general here.


There's also the magic route if you have a Wizard/Sorcerer that's taken the spell.

Aberrate, a level 1 Transmutation spell from Book of Vile Darkness.
If they fail the Fort save, they get a type change to Aberrate.

So if they were Undead with all of those immunities, they now have lost all of them and can be crited, poisoned and drowned. For example.

Undead are immune to that, it's a fort save and doesn't affect objects.

[Starbuck_II]

I would definitely apply specific trumps general here.



Undead are immune to that, it's a fort save and doesn't affect objects.

What if you first cast a spell to turn them living?
Spark of Life lets you turn off their poison immunity (other stuff too).
Only last 1 rd/lv.
Text:
It loses its immunity to effects that require a Fortitude save, as well as its invulnerability to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.

[Psyren]

Perhaps but then you probably don't even need Aberrate. Just Spark and then poison them. (I haven't read that spell myself.)

[Thurbane]

I was coming here to suggest the same: Spark of Life specifically says that while under the effect of the spell, undead lose their invulnerability to poison.

Spells that change type should also work, since Undead immunity to poison is a function of type.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24752641&postcount=1

Unfortunately, most (all?) of these either have a Fort save, are personal only, or only work on willing targets. For the ones that don't involve a Fort save, you'd probably need levels in Spellguard of Silverymoon or similar to use them on an Undead. Actually, Spellguard only allows you to use "defensive" personal spells on another creature, so it's questionable if any of the spells I linked would qualify. Maybe the ones that grant temporary hit points, like Trollshape would work.

For the ones that require a willing target, like Essence of the Dragon, maybe you could Bluff or otherwise trick the undead into willingly accepting the spell.

Still, a lot of hoops to jump through: Spark of Life is the much simpler answer.

[Starbuck_II]

Perhaps but then you probably don't even need Aberrate. Just Spark and then poison them. (I haven't read that spell myself.)

Aberate lasts longer if for some reason you need them to not have immunities for 10 minutes/lv instead of a lot of rounds/lv (by time you can cast Spark you'll have at least a minute of duration).

Very specialized reasons.

[Thurbane]

Aberate lasts longer if for some reason you need them to not have immunities for 10 minutes/lv instead of a lot of rounds/lv (by time you can cast Spark you'll have at least a minute of duration).

Very specialized reasons.

That's a good call, I wouldn't have thought of that.

Especially since the secondary damage/effect of poison usually takes a minute to kick in.

I believe the most recent version of SoL is Spell Compendium, where it is Cleric 3/Druid 4, so when you first get it, it may only last 5 or 7 rounds.