5e: Fire-sale on sub-quality feats

[DwarfFighter]

The endless "let's improve" threads on feats make it clear that a number of them are considered a poor substitute for taking ability score increases, while others are considered so good they're must-takes. The fixes mostly read like fevered power-trips where the turns milquetoast feats into dynamite on steroids.

So, instead of fixing by adjusting their power-level up them I was considering trying to bring some of the lesser feats into the game "on the cheap" as it were: When the characters attain 4th level and 8th level, in addition to taking their ability score increase they also get a feat from the list of less appreciated feats! I brushed through the list of feats in the player handbook, and these are the ones I think deserve a bit more love.

The free feat is random, so roll a d20 on the table below. Roll again for a different result if you get a feat you already have.

1. Alert
2. Athlete
3. Actor
4. Charger
5. Dungeon Delver
6. Grappler (1)
7. Healer
8. Heavily Armored (1, 2)
9. Lightly Armored (1, 3)
10. Linguist
11. Mage Slayer
12. Magic Initiate
13. Martial Adept
14. Moderately Armored (1, 4)
15. Mounted Combatant
16. Observant
17. Ritual Caster (1)
18. Skulker (1)
19. Tavern Brawler
20. Weapon Master

1) If you don't meet the prerequisites, roll again for a different result.
2) If you are already proficient with heavy armor roll again for a different result.
3) If you are already proficient with light armor roll again for a different result.
4) If you are already proficient with both medium armor and shields, roll again.

If the free feat grants a bonus to an ability score you ignore that part of the feat.

You can still select any of these feats as normal (i.e not as a free feat) in place of your ability score increase and gain the full benefits of the feat.

Maybe I accidentally added some feats in there that are actually considered good, but these are feats I never see used. Maybe some of these should be adjusted down further to justify them being free?

-DF

[Grod_The_Giant]

I have to disagree with most of this. I mean, I agree that choosing between a boring-but-useful ASI and an interesting-but-weak feat is not the best situation, but...

First off, I dunno what feat overhauls you've been reading, but I can't say I've come across many that turn "milquetoast feats into dynamite on steroids." In my experience, feat houserules are far more likely to to ban or modify the overpowered feats than they are to buff the weak ones.

But more importantly, rolling for a random feat is a terrible idea. Not only are you likely to get something useless (what's a Charisma 8 Fighter going to do with Actor?), but 5e feats are designed to have real impact on character archetypes. What if my illiterate, magic-hating Barbarian is assigned Ritual Caster? What if your truth-and-honor Paladin gets Skulker? You can say "then roll again," but at some point you have to stop.

Granting some of the more thematic, utility-oriented feats for free is fine, even a good idea. Randomly passing them out is a terrible one.



(Also, Magic Initiate is a bad/uncommon feat? Between Find Familiar and Booming/Green Flame Blade, I see it used very frequently.)

[DwarfFighter]

I'm pretty happy with random. I don't consider it much different from rolling for ability scores, which is a popular method even if there is no guarantee you'll get a great result. Random results means there is no agonizing over optimization.

What us is Actor for a Cha 8 Fighter? All feats are useful, and if that ever happens, I'm sure we'll find out.

Did the magic-hating Barbarian get Ritual Caster? Maybe he's overcome his distaste of magic and learned to read. Or maybe this can be re-skinned to him throwing bones on a painted animal skin and communing with his ancestor spirits. Or we could allow the player to decline the free feat. Kudos for committing so deeply to the character concept.

-DF

[Ettina]

(Also, Magic Initiate is a bad/uncommon feat? Between Find Familiar and Booming/Green Flame Blade, I see it used very frequently.)

I'm also confused by the Alert feat. It's pretty much always taken by anyone who has class abilities that benefit from going first, in my experience. And very often by anyone who has high damage and low health, regardless of class, unless some other feat is more essential. Also see it occasionally on characters who dumped Dex but don't want to always go last. It's a really useful feat.

[Lapak]

The list reads less 'feats that are weaker' and more 'feats that are not part of standard powerbuilding combos' to me, as some of them are indeed quite useful.

[Willie the Duck]

I'd recommending asking the mods to move this to the 5e forum.

[LudicSavant]

The endless "let's improve" threads on feats make it clear that a number of them are considered a poor substitute for taking ability score increases, while others are considered so good they're must-takes. The fixes mostly read like fevered power-trips where the turns milquetoast feats into dynamite on steroids.

So, instead of fixing by adjusting their power-level up them I was considering trying to bring some of the lesser feats into the game "on the cheap" as it were: When the characters attain 4th level and 8th level, in addition to taking their ability score increase they also get a feat from the list of less appreciated feats! I brushed through the list of feats in the player handbook, and these are the ones I think deserve a bit more love.

The free feat is random, so roll a d20 on the table below. Roll again for a different result if you get a feat you already have.

1. Alert
2. Athlete
3. Actor
4. Charger
5. Dungeon Delver
6. Grappler (1)
7. Healer
8. Heavily Armored (1, 2)
9. Lightly Armored (1, 3)
10. Linguist
11. Mage Slayer
12. Magic Initiate
13. Martial Adept
14. Moderately Armored (1, 4)
15. Mounted Combatant
16. Observant
17. Ritual Caster (1)
18. Skulker (1)
19. Tavern Brawler
20. Weapon Master

1) If you don't meet the prerequisites, roll again for a different result.
2) If you are already proficient with heavy armor roll again for a different result.
3) If you are already proficient with light armor roll again for a different result.
4) If you are already proficient with both medium armor and shields, roll again.

If the free feat grants a bonus to an ability score you ignore that part of the feat.

You can still select any of these feats as normal (i.e not as a free feat) in place of your ability score increase and gain the full benefits of the feat.

Maybe I accidentally added some feats in there that are actually considered good, but these are feats I never see used. Maybe some of these should be adjusted down further to justify them being free?

-DF

Some of the feats on this list are definitely not sub-quality. Things like Alert, Moderately Armored, Magic Initiate, and Ritual Caster are all used in optimized builds and have no business being mentioned next to stuff like Heavily Armored or Charger or Weapon Master.

Why is Moderately Armored so much better than Lightly or Heavily? Because unlike those it comes with a shield proficiency, and because you're looking at a bump from like 15 to 19 base AC for a half-feat (more if magic items are in play). That's a lot for an always-on bonus that totally stacks with stuff like the Shield spell. It's a top-shelf feat for characters like Bards, Warlocks, and Hobgoblins.

Alert is fantastic not only because initiative is a big deal (and tends to only become a bigger deal as the optimization/challenge level of the table rises), but also because it makes you immune to Surprise (which is one of the deadliest things in 5e), and able to better work with vision blockers (since they no longer "cancel out" for you, so enemies actually have Disadvantage to hit you in a fog cloud or Darkness or through a Wall of Fire or the like).

Ritual Caster can grant you the ritual casting feature of a full on Wizard of your level, complete with Find Familiar, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Phantom Steed, all that good stuff. If you don't already have a ritual caster in your party, it's huge.

[Jarawara]

If you want to keep the random element while also avoiding the "randomly selected uselessness", allow the player to select six (or eight, or ten) choices from the list and then roll a die to determine which of those they actually get. They would presumably not choose the ones useless to them, so those don't get randomly selected.

[Calthropstu]

Sub quality feat? What an interesting way of advertising foot long subs. I'd eat one but...

Wrong sub. 5e is that way *points*

[Eldariel]

Some of the feats on this list are definitely not sub-quality. Things like Alert, Moderately Armored, Magic Initiate, and Ritual Caster are all used in optimized builds and have no business being mentioned next to stuff like Heavily Armored or Charger or Weapon Master.

Why is Moderately Armored so much better than Lightly or Heavily? Because unlike those it comes with a shield proficiency, and because you're looking at a bump from like 15 to 19 base AC for a half-feat (more if magic items are in play). That's a lot for an always-on bonus that totally stacks with stuff like the Shield spell. It's a top-shelf feat for characters like Bards, Warlocks, and Hobgoblins.

Alert is fantastic not only because initiative is a big deal (and tends to only become a bigger deal as the optimization/challenge level of the table rises), but also because it makes you immune to Surprise (which is one of the deadliest things in 5e), and able to better work with vision blockers (since they no longer "cancel out" for you, so enemies actually have Disadvantage to hit you in a fog cloud or Darkness or through a Wall of Fire or the like).

Ritual Caster can grant you the ritual casting feature of a full on Wizard of your level, complete with Find Familiar, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Phantom Steed, all that good stuff. If you don't already have a ritual caster in your party, it's huge.

Skulker and Observant are two more that I'd like to break out. Skulker is great for anyone with solid combat hiding ability and especially anyone who likes using Darkvision (Goblins, Rogues), and Observant is just a solid half-feat especially for Wis-casters as long as passives are handled reasonably. They're slightly weaker than the other mentioned feats probably, but they still have their niches. They're just more situational (i.e. there are fewer builds that want and can fit them). But there's worlds between Observant and Actor/Athlete/Grappler/Charger/Weapon Master/etc.

The final feats on that list with some niches are Healer and Tavern Brawler, though they might be weak enough that it doesn't really matter. Healer is the stronger of the two and on the right character again, it can be surprisingly valuable (being able to yoyo someone "infinitely" at no resource cost can be worthwhile in highly resource intensive campaigns).

One of the bigger issues is that many of the ones you can roll are highly situational too. Like roll Grappler on a backline Diviner? Or Weapon Master on a Str Fighter who's already proficient in everything with 20 Str [or any even Str and Dex, really]? Those are actively useless.


EDIT: Oh and Savage Attacker should definitely be included. It's in the same bunch as Charger.

[TigerT20]

Sorry, you're saying more people in your games have taken Skilled than Magic Initiate?

[Kane0]

Could probably cut down that list to like d12 if we're talking underpowered feats.

But this sounds a lot like the common 'feat at level 1 from curated list' houserule, just delayed and randomized.

[Willie the Duck]

Ritual Caster can grant you the ritual casting feature of a full on Wizard of your level, complete with Find Familiar, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Phantom Steed, all that good stuff. If you don't already have a ritual caster in your party, it's huge.

Also, don't sell Ritual Caster: Druid short either... depending. Firstly, you need a campaign where you'll ever find druid scrolls to flesh out your book. Second, the DM has to be the one to encourage player inventiveness. However, in such a campaign, being able to find, talk to, and see through the eyes of animals can be like Find Familiar, but with a local creature who already knows what is going on in the area (all while you have found a successful Hidey Hole for yourself that is under water behind stone, etc.

[stoutstien]

The endless "let's improve" threads on feats make it clear that a number of them are considered a poor substitute for taking ability score increases, while others are considered so good they're must-takes. The fixes mostly read like fevered power-trips where the turns milquetoast feats into dynamite on steroids.

So, instead of fixing by adjusting their power-level up them I was considering trying to bring some of the lesser feats into the game "on the cheap" as it were: When the characters attain 4th level and 8th level, in addition to taking their ability score increase they also get a feat from the list of less appreciated feats! I brushed through the list of feats in the player handbook, and these are the ones I think deserve a bit more love.

The free feat is random, so roll a d20 on the table below. Roll again for a different result if you get a feat you already have.

1. Alert
2. Athlete
3. Actor
4. Charger
5. Dungeon Delver
6. Grappler (1)
7. Healer
8. Heavily Armored (1, 2)
9. Lightly Armored (1, 3)
10. Linguist
11. Mage Slayer
12. Magic Initiate
13. Martial Adept
14. Moderately Armored (1, 4)
15. Mounted Combatant
16. Observant
17. Ritual Caster (1)
18. Skulker (1)
19. Tavern Brawler
20. Weapon Master

1) If you don't meet the prerequisites, roll again for a different result.
2) If you are already proficient with heavy armor roll again for a different result.
3) If you are already proficient with light armor roll again for a different result.
4) If you are already proficient with both medium armor and shields, roll again.

If the free feat grants a bonus to an ability score you ignore that part of the feat.

You can still select any of these feats as normal (i.e not as a free feat) in place of your ability score increase and gain the full benefits of the feat.

Maybe I accidentally added some feats in there that are actually considered good, but these are feats I never see used. Maybe some of these should be adjusted down further to justify them being free?

-DF

The only reason why you wouldn't see 80% of these feats in play is due to DM style. Part of this due to an overzealous obsession with increasing damage at the expense of everything else by players and the DM reacting in kind.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. Alert
2. Athlete
3. Actor
4. Charger
5. Dungeon Delver
6. Grappler (1)
7. Healer
8. Heavily Armored (1, 2)
9. Lightly Armored (1, 3)
10. Linguist
11. Mage Slayer
12. Magic Initiate
13. Martial Adept
14. Moderately Armored (1, 4)
15. Mounted Combatant
16. Observant
17. Ritual Caster (1)
18. Skulker (1)
19. Tavern Brawler
20. Weapon Master

I think that your list is wrong. Alert, Healer, Magic Initiate, and Observant are all quite good.

[diplomancer]

I think that your list is wrong. Alert, Healer, Magic Initiate, and Observant are all quite good.

Yeah, idea's interesting, but, apart from the ones just mentioned, I'd take out of the list Moderately Armored, Actor, Ritual Caster, and Mounted Combatant as well, and make it a d12.

I tend to play long campaigns, so I've played relatively few characters. And still I've taken Actor, Mounted Combatant and Magic Initiate myself. Alert and Ritual Caster are great feats, which I've never taken, but always a tough decision not to. Only reason I haven't taken Moderately Armored is because in many cases it's better to multiclass. But to get it for free so you don't even need to multiclass is crazy good. In a current 4 person party, 2 have taken Observant (one for mostly RP reasons).

[Gignere]

I did something similar but instead of every 4 levels in class, I changed it to every 3 character levels for people to pick from a list of weak feats. My list was definitely much shorter and curated than the OP. For clarity the players kept their usual ASI/feat at every 4 class levels too.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Yeah, idea's interesting, but, apart from the ones just mentioned, I'd take out of the list Moderately Armored, Actor, Ritual Caster, and Mounted Combatant as well, and make it a d12.

I tend to play long campaigns, so I've played relatively few characters. And still I've taken Actor, Mounted Combatant and Magic Initiate myself.

I myself love the Mounted Combatant feat. I've played three paladins in 5e, and taken it on two of them (admittedly, these were free, 1st level feats). Not only is it super-thematic feeling for a knightly type, it can be quite potent. Because we weren't dungeon crawling and many combats happened outdoors, I got a lot of use out of the advantage feature of the feat. And it's really nice to protect your mount from insta-kills much of the time with the other, more defensive features (especially if your flying on it).

It's not a top 10 feat, I'll admit, but it's hardly weak and I agree it isn't a throw away like Weapon Master and Linguist.

[Jerrykhor]

I don't think your players would appreciate this. Just because a feat is given for free doesn't change their opinion its tier. IMO Feats are very heavily tied to character building, and character building should be almost 100% within the players prerogative.

You're probably expecting a player to use a weak feat for free, and hope that they think, 'Hey maybe this feat isn't completely F tier'. If thats the case then you would be very disappointed. Its not the same as giving a spellcaster a free spell that is very niche, because at least its an option to choose from the spells they can cast. If a player doesn't plan to use grapples, then Grappler would be useless (funny point: its still useless even if your character is a grappler). If they don't plan to use shields, then you can't convince them that Moderately Armored is a decent feat. Or maybe they think it is decent but still refuse to use shields. The point is, they don't care about the feat unless its a general benefit like Observant or Alert.

But if you want to have a proper list of sub-par feats, you can't leave out Durable and Keen Mind.

[ProsecutorGodot]

But if you want to have a proper list of sub-par feats, you can't leave out Durable and Keen Mind.

Both of which are fantastic given the following reasoning:

IMO Feats are very heavily tied to character building, and character building should be almost 100% within the players prerogative.
and

The point is, they don't care about the feat unless its a general benefit

Durable has been a fantastic addition to my Paladin's ability to soak up damage (Periapt of Wound Closure + Durable means a minimum of 16 hit points healed on a hit die) and Keen Mind has some pretty unique uses as far as the social/exploration pillars of play are concerned. Great for a Spy, or with a generous DM, a Wizard whose spellbook was damaged.

I actually took Keen Mind on my Lizardfolk Druid for roleplay reasons, he's a Circle of Star's Druid in Out of the Abyss. He's using Keen Mind to keep track of the constellations in a place with no access to the stars. The navigation abilities are also very useful.

They don't do a lot but both feats are strictly beneficial, and can be used to great effect. They also don't require you to do anything, they just work when they work.

[LudicSavant]

Durable has been a fantastic addition to my Paladin's ability to soak up damage (Periapt of Wound Closure + Durable means a minimum of 16 hit points healed on a hit die) and Keen Mind has some pretty unique uses as far as the social/exploration pillars of play are concerned. Great for a Spy, or with a generous DM, a Wizard whose spellbook was damaged.

The average amount of HP gained from the Durable feat in your specific situation (Periapt and all) is 1.2 hp per HD (0.6 without the Periapt).

Basically, it's changing your possible results on an HD roll from 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 / 22 / 24 / 26 / 28 (average 19) to 16 / 16 / 16/ 16/ 18 / 20 / 22 / 24 / 26 / 28 (average 20.2)

[ProsecutorGodot]

The average amount of HP gained from the Durable feat in your specific situation (Periapt and all) is 1.2 hp per HD (0.6 without the Periapt).

Basically, it's changing your possible results on an HD roll from 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 / 22 / 24 / 26 / 28 (average 19) to 16 / 16 / 16/ 16/ 18 / 20 / 22 / 24 / 26 / 28 (average 20.2)

The biggest part was that it was also a half feat for Con, I already had Res(con) and wanted to boost my 17 to an 18.

[Jerrykhor]

I feel that Durable is bad because to get value out of it, you have to have so many combat encounters per day that it burns through your hit dice too much. But nowadays it seems most DMs prefer low quantity, high quality when it comes to combats.

Keen Mind is the first feat that i feel is downright trash with no redeeming value. It gives bonuses to things that are so unimportant, and most of them can be done without the feat anyways, such as by taking notes. If you need to know the way north, just get a compass. Pretty much the best thing about the feat is the +1 INT. But its a terrible feat because it hinges on the DM remembering things for you if you so happen to forget. Does your feat work if the DM also forgot? I guess not.

[Kane0]

But its a terrible feat because it hinges on the DM remembering things for you if you so happen to forget. Does your feat work if the DM also forgot? I guess not.

Yeah, its only good if you can pull a fast one over the DM using it, or if they generously rule that if they forget anything then whatever you remember becomes true.

[Schwann145]

This seems to only make sense if we're turning D&D from an RPG into a board game where bigger hits are the only real consideration.

[Eldariel]

This seems to only make sense if we're turning D&D from an RPG into a board game where bigger hits are the only real consideration.

What makes you say that? Most of the options on the board here give you utility specifically for exploration or social interaction: seems like the opposite of "big hits" unless you mean "big hit" as in "greater likelihood of auccess in any given task".

[Chronos]

Even if a few people do still like rolling stats, that's still not the same thing as random feats as you level up. Rolled stats, if they happen at all, happen right at the start of character creation. If you end up getting a really high score in Str, say, you can say "Well, I guess I'll roll up a barbarian". You can build around the randomness. Even more so if we mean "roll six ability scores, and then assign them to whichever scores you want".

With this, though, you either get something that's a bit useful to your character, or you don't. If you get something that is useful, then you're being rewarded for doing a good job at... being lucky, I guess? And if you get something that isn't useful, then there's not really much you can do about it, because by the time you're getting these, you're already pretty much committed to most of your other build choices.