Are Duergar worth CR1, would a Lesser Duergar be worth even more ?

[Condé]

Hello,

Actually diving into Improving monsters (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm).

An interesting case, for me, is the Duergar. Maybe most people will think they are definitly worth their CR 1 but... Since I discovered recently the "Lesser-Duergar" which are bascially Duergar... Witthout the LA+1. Which mean you could make a NPC lesser-duergar with 2 levels of warrior instead of 1 and still be CR 1.

Sooo. Which one do you think is worth its CR 1 ?

The actual Duergar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm), with only 9hp, but a huge AC, only 20 feets movements but capable of being invisible AND to get Enlarged for 1min. (So for the duration of a fight at this level and even more)

Or a Lesser-Duergar, with 2 levels of Warrior... So with something like +1HD (1d8+2 = 6hp), +1 BAB, +1 Fort Save (already good so not so much of a difference) and being able to stay invisble/huge for a longer period of time but only one-time/day... And some skill points. But... That would be it. No feat, or anything.

Note: I always thought playable races with LA+1 aren't worth it (Aasimar, Tiefling, Duergar...) The lesser version from the Player's guide to Faërun brought lesser versions of these races. Some people say that make them playable, but not overpowered. I'm one of them.
So, why a Duergar should be CR1 when they could be CR1/2 for basically... No change whatsoever if you were using the lesser version ?

Because, as far as I know, Aasimar, Tiefling etc... Lose their Outsider and become Humanoids with the planetouched subtype. And that's it. For duergar, and lesser-duergar, they seem to not lose anything. Except their immunity to poison, paralysis and phantasms and some skill points. I mean, losing some immunities suck, but is it worth a LA+1 ? Don't think so.

What do you guys think ?

I know this look pretty specific, but I guess this idea can be expanded to many, many monsters or NPC out there.

Cheers.

[Bayar]

This thread might come in handy whenever somebody talks about Duergars. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9671.0)

I feel like the Lesser one would be good for any character that wants to enter melee. Normal one would be good for people that want to cheese that clause of "counts as a wizard level = twice your class levels, and only if LA buyout is in play.

I'd argue that Duergar are more worth the LA +1 than Hobgoblins are at least.

[Maat Mons]

Planetouched should be happy to become humanoids. Outsiders can be Planar Bound.

I think lesser duergar would be kind of neat in an e6 game. That high caster level lets them grab Quicken Spell-Like Ability by 6th level.

[Condé]

This thread might come in handy whenever somebody talks about Duergars. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9671.0)

I feel like the Lesser one would be good for any character that wants to enter melee. Normal one would be good for people that want to cheese that clause of "counts as a wizard level = twice your class levels, and only if LA buyout is in play.

I'd argue that Duergar are more worth the LA +1 than Hobgoblins are at least.

Thanks for the link. But actually, it is one of the reason I'm here today. :D


Planetouched should be happy to become humanoids. Outsiders can be Planar Bound.

I think lesser duergar would be kind of neat in an e6 game. That high caster level lets them grab Quicken Spell-Like Ability by 6th level.

Yes. But apparently you can do some shenanigans if you are an outsider you can't do as a humanoid.

[Ramza00]

3.5 CR but this also applies to all Challenge Rating systems really needs "guidelines" of what you should be expected to handle at a specific CR and this is not limited to.

Saves
Hit Points
AC
Damage
Ability DCs

But also other things like Flight, Teleport, and so on. We are talking like a dozen plus important factors even though I listed only 7 things off hand which is less than a dozen.

The mathematical formulas of adding NPC classes, PC classes are useful for they are simple, but there is a point where one factor can be gamed and suddenly the encounter is in a different "tier" of a challenge rating.

In sum the system needs to be easy to "eyeball" for the DM and adjust on the fly. If the DM has to learn dozens upon dozens of rules you are adding complexity and system mastery to the DM making it harder for the DM to learn the game and slowing things down. Yet without such a good guideline the DM may give the players too much XP or too little XP for defeating an encounter, or perhaps cause a TPK for THAT CRAB has the wrong CR for its abilities and defenses.

[Darg]

Planetouched should be happy to become humanoids. Outsiders can be Planar Bound.

Heritage feats make that easy, but I have to wonder what "proper name" means in the context of the spell. For all we know it could be a birth name hidden by the parents, or it could be as open as any name that specifically references the individual. Also, calling spells can only transport creatures from one plane to another and they give them a one time free return. So being a native outsider does have it's advantages and protections from being called by a normal enemy. First, they would have to identify you as an outsider. Second, they would have to find your "proper name." Third, they would have to be in a different plane. Fourth, they need to know your alignment to create the proper trap (MCAEvil wouldn't trap a good creature and none of them trap a true neutral except for non-alignment circles). The likelihood of it all drastically diminishes if they aren't from the same plane to have come across each other.

So being an outsider (native) isn't likely to be planar bound unless you come across an obsessive villain that you naively handed your proper name.

Look at the benefits:

+2 wis and cha
Darkvision
martial weapon proficiencies, medium armor proficiency, shield proficiency.
Resistances to 3 energy types.
Free caster levels.
Outsider (native) is also beneficial.

Yeah, +1 LA sucks, but the proficiencies alone would cost a level in another class and you get a lot of other benefits. Missing a single HD is really only an issue at lower levels or if you are power gaming.
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As for Duergar you get immunities, +4 bonus on saves, better darkvision, extra skill bonuses, and a caster level equal to twice their level. I think the +1 LA is perfectly deserved.