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graymachine
2007-11-12, 10:41 PM
I'm planning on running a God Game in D&D 3.5 that takes place in the modern world. Currently I'm building the first story arc and was wondering if I could get some assistance in putting together a major NPC/Villain. Depending on the players' decisions they may come into contact with a man in charge of a man that is in charge of a shadowy mega-corporation that is behind all the Microsofts and AT&Ts and such, for the most part. The character is Caine, ala Caine and Abel from the bible. His level, for purposes of the game, is roughly 25, but that is flexible. I've planned out his personality and all of the connections he has, but I can't seem to nail down his build. He has access to cleric magic, under what you could pretty much attribute to the Abrahamic god (for reasons in game) so there isn't really any class restrictions for him. I was somewhat partial to giving him a significant number of levels in the Truenamer class, but I'm not sure about the mechanical strength of that; maybe I should simply go with either divine or arcane levels and plug in the Thematic Magic feat. Any suggestions? I'm looking for something that would challenge the players in a heads-on confrontation, but the character's real strength is in indirect manipulation. Thanks for the help!

To Clarify: He actually should be about 20th-22nd level. The extra kicker there is the curse that Caine is supposed to be under (whatever happens to him is reflected on the offender 7 times over.) I'm basically planning the curse to be a simply reflective multiplier of damage; all damage done to him is reflected times 7. As a side thing, any mechanical suggestions on this aside from what I've come up with? I think that this curse is at least worth a few levels.

Kizara
2007-11-12, 10:45 PM
I'm planning on running a God Game in D&D 3.5 that takes place in the modern world. Currently I'm building the first story arc and was wondering if I could get some assistance in putting together a major NPC/Villain. Depending on the players' decisions they may come into contact with a man in charge of a man that is in charge of a shadowy mega-corporation that is behind all the Microsofts and AT&Ts and such, for the most part. The character is Caine, ala Caine and Abel from the bible. His level, for purposes of the game, is roughly 25, but that is flexible. I've planned out his personality and all of the connections he has, but I can't seem to nail down his build. He has access to cleric magic, under what you could pretty much attribute to the Abrahamic god (for reasons in game) so there isn't really any class restrictions for him. I was somewhat partial to giving him a significant number of levels in the Truenamer class, but I'm not sure about the mechanical strength of that; maybe I should simply go with either divine or arcane levels and plug in the Thematic Magic feat. Any suggestions? I'm looking for something that would challenge the players in a heads-on confrontation, but the character's real strength is in indirect manipulation. Thanks for the help!

Level 25? Seriously, just do Cleric 25 and be REALLY creative with epic spells. Class/feat builds are fairly irrelivant at that point, as long as you have quicken and persistant spell (which you do, as you are a cleric), and it alls comes down to who can make the most abusive epic spell. Seriously, look at the creation rules, think about how they are based, now sit down and make a few spells designed to be really effective, and see how abusable it is.

Gralamin
2007-11-12, 10:52 PM
Its Cain, not Caine.

I agree on a high level cleric.

graymachine
2007-11-12, 10:57 PM
A good point, but I'm trying to anticipate some truly nasty builds on the part of the PCs, not to mention at the point of this encounter they should be enjoying their first couple of divine ranks. What I'm looking to do is make the encounter challenging, but more so interesting, at least on the mechanics end since I have the story worked out. Plus, I kinda like the simple arrogance of Caine being the first Truenamer.

More: Plus I find it hard to justify a straight cleric controlling a massive shadow corporation, given that he would be cautious of using magic before game start (plot reasons) and the cleric's relatively low skill points.

graymachine
2007-11-12, 10:59 PM
Granted that the straight cleric will give them something to cry about, but I was looking from something with a little more umf.

Gerrtt
2007-11-12, 11:00 PM
Cain also had a mark that kept people from being interested in killing him.

So maybe in your case he has a mark that is only visible when in the presence of someone with the Aura ability (clerics, paladins, anyone else with it) and with a good enough knowledge religion check they would know that the symbol means they should not attack him recklessly.

Just a thought.

graymachine
2007-11-12, 11:02 PM
Cain also had a mark that kept people from being interested in killing him.

So maybe in your case he has a mark that is only visible when in the presence of someone with the Aura ability (clerics, paladins, anyone else with it) and with a good enough knowledge religion check they would know that the symbol means they should not attack him recklessly.

Just a thought.

An interesting point.

tyckspoon
2007-11-12, 11:19 PM
A good point, but I'm trying to anticipate some truly nasty builds on the part of the PCs, not to mention at the point of this encounter they should be enjoying their first couple of divine ranks. What I'm looking to do is make the encounter challenging, but more so interesting, at least on the mechanics end since I have the story worked out. Plus, I kinda like the simple arrogance of Caine being the first Truenamer.

More: Plus I find it hard to justify a straight cleric controlling a massive shadow corporation, given that he would be cautious of using magic before game start (plot reasons) and the cleric's relatively low skill points.

Truenaming is.. not what you're looking for, at least mechanically. It's got excellent flavor for this guy, but it's weaker than clerical spellcasting and if the PCs are strong enough to have divine ranks, there's a fair chance it won't do anything at all. [Although if you allow Caine something like Epic Truenaming, he can use that to give himself +texas to his Truename checks, which would nearly let him speak the universe out of existence.]

Controlling a shadow corporation is easy for a cleric. Give him a decent Charisma. Max out his Diplomacy. Now everybody listens to him. If he has to compete with another high-Diplomacy person, he excuses himself for a minute and uses some spells to boost his Charisma and Diplomacy checks for a while.

hida_jiremi
2007-11-12, 11:22 PM
It's... interesting that you should run this campaign. Because my wife and I ran this exact campaign for three years. Gods reawakening in the modern world, Cain as an immortal with a sevenfold harm curse, the whole nine yards.

Our stats for Cain were somewhat higher-level, but we made him Commoner/Barbarian/Rogue, to represent that he was a farmer, consumed with rage, and lived as a street thief and beggar for centuries. Biblically speaking, Cain shouldn't have any clerical powers; he was an outcast from god's grace, not a priest. Our writeup for the "Mark of Cain" was just that anyone who laid eyes on him could make a DC 10 Knowledge (Religion) check to realize that harming him was forbidden. After that, if you ignored the warning, you deserved getting hit with the sevenfold curse.

What's the premise of your campaign besides this, if I may ask? Because the similarities to the God Game that my wife and I ran are already kind of creepy. I'd like to hear more.


Jeremy Puckett

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-12, 11:22 PM
Why would Cain be a truenamer? Biblically, Cain is the first person to kill another human using physical violence. If anything, he would be the first fighter.

I've seen this game run before, and in that game, Cain's curse was statted up as a SQ. For example, if someone attacked him for 50 dmg, they would take 350 dmg. If someone killed him, they would die, and so would there 6 closest relatives. etc.

hida_jiremi
2007-11-12, 11:29 PM
I've seen this game run before, and in that game, Cain's curse was statted up as a SQ. For example, if someone attacked him for 50 dmg, they would take 350 dmg. If someone killed him, they would die, and so would there 6 closest relatives. etc.

Actually, the result of killing Cain in our game was that it counted as seven deaths for the purpose of resurrection magic: if you were brought back with anything less than true resurrection, you lost seven levels; true resurrection had to be cast on you seven times to bring you back. We never had to deal with it specifically, but there was also the threat that a god PC who killed Cain might have this backlash onto his followers.

Jeremy Puckett

graymachine
2007-11-12, 11:32 PM
Good points. Truenaming, while having great flavor, is probably too weak. The problem with being a cleric, at least straight cleric, is that prior to 1969 (the year of the moon landing) the people in the world that had cleric levels didn't dare to use clerical magic (the few gods that were operating prior to that were... cannibalistic.) I don't see him amassing a corporate juggernaut in just under 40 years.

Kizara
2007-11-12, 11:37 PM
Good points. Truenaming, while having great flavor, is probably too weak. The problem with being a cleric, at least straight cleric, is that prior to 1969 (the year of the moon landing) the people in the world that had cleric levels didn't dare to use clerical magic (the few gods that were operating prior to that were... cannibalistic.) I don't see him amassing a corporate juggernaut in just under 40 years.

Look at Ur-Priest in the complete divine, pretty much perfect for Cain, IMO.

graymachine
2007-11-12, 11:41 PM
It's... interesting that you should run this campaign. Because my wife and I ran this exact campaign for three years. Gods reawakening in the modern world, Cain as an immortal with a sevenfold harm curse, the whole nine yards.

Our stats for Cain were somewhat higher-level, but we made him Commoner/Barbarian/Rogue, to represent that he was a farmer, consumed with rage, and lived as a street thief and beggar for centuries. Biblically speaking, Cain shouldn't have any clerical powers; he was an outcast from god's grace, not a priest. Our writeup for the "Mark of Cain" was just that anyone who laid eyes on him could make a DC 10 Knowledge (Religion) check to realize that harming him was forbidden. After that, if you ignored the warning, you deserved getting hit with the sevenfold curse.

What's the premise of your campaign besides this, if I may ask? Because the similarities to the God Game that my wife and I ran are already kind of creepy. I'd like to hear more.


Jeremy Puckett

Actually, Jeremy, this is David from your Thursday game. I was planning on trying to run the God Game with a different feel ( I think I passed the info along to you at some point and all of my questions on the internet have had credits; sorry about this one, I thought it too small a question.) I'm working Caine as an earlier plot point, making a shadow corporate rivalry between him and Loki kind of the grounding point as the PCs come into full godhood.

hida_jiremi
2007-11-12, 11:59 PM
I thought this sounded remarkably familiar! Scoundrel! Knave! Imitation-being-the-sincerest-form-of-flattery guy! XD

And this is the first time I remember hearing you say anything about running a God Game-type game. Maybe I zoned out at the time or something.


Jeremy

graymachine
2007-11-13, 12:09 AM
Actually, I'd been assured by mutual friends that word had gotten to you and you had no problem with it. Inspiration for it had come from, actually, the stories of a particular Stopperman we know.

hida_jiremi
2007-11-13, 12:15 AM
I don't have a problem with it. I'm actually flattered. I just prefer that when things like this get posted, credit is slung in the right direction. I have a career to consider, you know. Oh, buy my latest book! :smallbiggrin:

Really, as far as credit goes, my wife and I share equal credit on the God Game. She did all the creative work, and I hammered out the nuts and bolts, with some level of plot input. So, props to my lovely wife, Chisa Puckett nee Yap. :)

Jeremy

graymachine
2007-11-13, 12:28 AM
Agreed, Yay Chisa!

Now that I have the master(s) minds to pick, what do you think of Caine's build? The basic intention is that development since the Industrial Revolution had been (without getting larger entities involved) a struggle between Caine and Loki. For a bit of history, Caine backed communism and Loki triumpted capitalism. How do you think they would stand (specifically in regards to Caine's build?)

hida_jiremi
2007-11-13, 12:41 AM
Well, as I mentioned previously, I disagree with giving Cain access to divine magic, especially if he's the "champion of communism" as you posit him. Cain was outcast from god's grace, making him pretty much as far from a cleric as a person can be. Communism has always decried the influence of religion on man, "opiate of the masses" and all that. Between the two, clerical powers would seem to be right out.

Honestly, for what you're proposing, the best fit for Cain would be fighter, using the hammer and sickle of Russian communism, in their earlier interpretation as the weapons of farmers and smiths, or fighting with a scythe. He would represent the power of the common man, united in strength without the need for gods or kings. Cain would be the "everyman."

Loki, as a consumerist, would be all about being as unique as possible, promoting himself above anyone else, being better than everyone else. Our build made him a rogue/sorcerer: charismatic, unique, independent. His power comes from himself only, making him beholden to no one else. Were we to run this game again, I would seriously consider making him a beguiler instead: illusion, trickery, cunning and skill.

The best advice I can give you is that you shouldn't be afraid to make an NPC's stats "vanilla." Making Cain Fighter 25 gives him a metric ton of feats to specialize his abilities beyond "I hit it," and we proved that he works fine without spellcasting. Magic doesn't really make any sense for the character anyway without serious amounts of rationalization.

Really, just think about Cain's personality and background, and build him from there. Don't worry about experimenting with weird base classes or making him uber. Do what makes the most sense for your game's story.


Jeremy

Heiwako
2007-11-13, 01:04 AM
I cannot find my copy of Cain's build right now. That is the problem with tons of papers saved from over 10 years of gaming.

From what I recall, we gave Cain Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter/and Legendary Dreadnought (total of 40 levels). We had discussed Cain being a commoner, but I am a firm believer that characters can change their levels over long periods of time.

Barbarian - This represented Cain's fundamental rage (and his first level).

Ranger - Cain hated other godlings and it was his job to hunt them down and kill them.

Fighter - Well, best way to fight is to have lots of feats. Cain was specialized in the scythe. (The perfect reaping tool.)

Legendary Dreadnought - Just icing on the cake. It basically shut down a lot of ways for other characters to mess with him. (i.e. Bursting out of bubbles of force.)

As for his curse, yes, we did use 7x times damage as a manifestation of the curse. The actual physical symbol we used was that he had red hair. This was drawn from some source that said it was how God marked him for the world to know.

As for your comment of "what is the likelihood of making a huge multicorporation in just 40 years?", I think the answer is "Pretty good." Remember just because your major NCPs are immortal does not mean their staff is. Those mortals are very interested in making as much money as possible. Many of the corporations of today were small individually owned stores w/n the last 50 years. McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc.

If you want to make Cain pious in your game, it would definitely different. Remember just because magic can be flashy does not mean it has to be. I could see many clerics using magic discretely for hundreds of years. And when in doubt, use Silent and Still spell.

Basically, you have to ask yourself, "Is Cain in good with God or is he not?". Then ask youself "Is God okay with Cain or is he still punishing him after all these years?". I think the answer to those two questions will build Cain mostly from there. Since Cain is a huge plot NPC, don't hold him to levels/ECL/whatever. I assume you are going to be giving your PCs many special abilties that are not part of the book, so do the same with your NPCs. Just build him as you think is appropiate and go from there.

Krrth
2007-11-13, 09:32 AM
Just as an aside, there is a series of books with cain (Kane) in a fantasy realm. They are out of print,but if you can/want to find them, they may give you some ideas. The mark of cain in that series was that he could only die from violence (human only), and only if the wound was instantly fatal.