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ThanatosZero
2021-06-08, 08:41 PM
(See also this thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632617-Racial-Level-Adjustment-Bad-Idea-or-Poorly-Implemented&p=25091916&viewfull=1#post25091916)

People often complained that the often given LA do not scale well with the power obtained in later levels.
That is true under the original system.
But then I got a idea.

What if Level Adjustment, Racial Hit Die and Class levels had all their own leveling tables, but a master table which counts all XP from all the tables together to determine the Effective Character Level?

For orientation, we base Class Levels, RHD and ECL off the normal table we all know.

Class level use the normal amount of XP needed for a increase in ECL.
1st Level 0 XP
2nd Level 1,000 XP
3rd Level 3,000 XP
4th Level 6,000 XP
5th Level 10,000 XP
6th Level 15,000 XP
7th Level 21,000 XP
8th Level 28,000 XP
9th Level 36,000 XP
10th Level 45,000 XP
11th Level 55,000 XP
12th Level 66,000 XP
13th Level 78,000 XP
14th Level 91,000 XP
15th Level 105,000 XP
16th Level 120,000 XP
17th Level 136,000 XP
18th Level 153,000 XP
19th Level 171,000 XP
20th Level 190,000 XP


The LA and RHD Tables uses this XP chart.
+1 1,000 XP
+2 3,000 XP
+3 6,000 XP
+4 10,000 XP
+5 15,000 XP
+6 21,000 XP
+7 28,000 XP
+8 36,000 XP
+9 45,000 XP
+10 55,000 XP
+11 66,000 XP
+12 78,000 XP
+13 91,000 XP
+14 105,000 XP
+15 120,000 XP
+16 136,000 XP
+17 153,000 XP
+18 171,000 XP
+19 190,000 XP
+20 210,000 XP

As such we have now 4 XP tables

Class Level Table
Racial Hit Dice Table
Level Adjustment Table

and the

Effective Character Level Table,
which counts the XP of the former 3 together to determine the ECL.
(Classes / Racial Hit Dice / Level Adjustment = Effective Character Level)


1st Rule of thumb using this system
The ECL determines how many HDs for Hitpoints may be active at any given time (always take the best), while the rest become inactive. Also it limits maximum BAB, Skillranks in a skill, Spells per day and known, Caster and Initiator Levels, and so on with the exception of saves and new skillpoints with each level up in a class.

Now let us take a look by taking the Half-Celestial Template as a example.
The Level Adjustment is +4.
We transform them now to XP for to determine the ECL.


For this we start out as a Human Favored Soul
Class 1 (Favored Soul 1) (0 XP) /LA+4 (10,000 XP) = ECL 5 (10,000 XP)
We gain XP as a character having a ECL of 5.


After several sessions, we gained enough levels as a Favored Soul
Class 5 (Favored Soul 5) (10,000 XP) / RHD 0 (0 XP) / LA+4 (10,000 XP) = ECL 6 (20,000 XP)
Under normal circumstances, we would have a ECL of 9, but here we have a ECL of 6.


Years later we finally reached Level 20 as a Favored Soul.
Class 20 (Favored Soul 20) (190,000 XP) / RHD 0 (0 XP) / LA+4 (10,000 XP) = ECL 20 (200,000 XP)
Again, under normal circumstances, we would have a ECL of 24, but here we have a ECL of 20.



2nd Rule of thumb using this system
If we have RHD and LA before we chose a class, you need to collect first enough XP equal of your current ECL+1 multiplied by 1000 to activate the class level table.
For example, if the XP of your RHD + LA designate you as a ECL 14 character, you need to collect 15,000 XP. This amount of XP earned isn't set on ECL. (Thanks to TEOUltimus for his contributions)

Note: The XP collected for to activate the class level table, doesn't count towards the ECL table.

For this example we use a Astral Deva (RHD 12 and LA+8), which would be normally a ECL 20 character.

Astral Deva
RHD 12 (78,000 XP)/LA +8 (36,000 XP) = ECL 15 (114,000 XP)
BAB 12, HP 12d8 + CON Modifier

After earning 14,000 XP
Cleric 1 (0 XP)/RHD 12 (78,000 XP)/LA +8 (36,000 XP) = ECL 15 (114,000 XP)
BAB 12, HP 1d8+12d8 + CON Modifier

Reaching Cleric 8
Cleric 8 (28,000 XP)/RHD 12 (78,000 XP)/LA +8 (36,000 XP) = ECL 17 (142,000 XP)
BAB 16, 8/20 Cleric Spellcasting, HP 5d8+12d8 + CON Modifier

Reaching Cleric 14
Cleric 14 (91,000 XP)/RHD 12 (78,000 XP)/LA +8 (36,000 XP) = ECL 20 (207,000 XP)
BAB 20, 14/20 Cleric Spellcasting, HP 8d8+12d8 + CON Modifier

This is a way, to properly scale Level Adjustments and Racial Hit Dice in combination with Class Levels.



3rd Rule of thumb using this system
Racial Paragon Classes are treated as additional RHD, which are added towards the RHD table.
If Player Characters have no RHD at the start, they have to activate the RHD table like in the 2nd Rule of thumb, by earning enough XP [(ECL+1) x 1000 = XP needed].


For example:
Lark the Half-Elf started as a Wizard his career and earned enough XP to become a 2nd level wizard.
In order to truly understand himself and his elven ancestors, he decides to take the Half-Elf and Elf Paragon class levels.

Lark the Half-Elf Wizard and Elven Paragon (ECL 7)
Class 2 (Wizard 2) (1,000 XP)/
RHD 6 (Half-Elf Paragon 3/Elf Paragon 3) (21,000 XP)
= ECL 7 (22,000 XP)
BAB 5, 5/20 Wizard Spellcasting, HP 1d4+3d8+3d8 + CON Modifier


Lark decides to train himself further as a capable combatant, as such he takes levels as a Abjurant Champion, Dragonslayer and Spellsword.

Lark the Abjurant Champion and Elven Paragon (ECL 11)
Class 9 (Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1) (36,000 XP)/
RHD 6 (Half-Elf Paragon 3/Elf Paragon 3) (21,000 XP)
= ECL 11 (57,000 XP)
BAB 11, 11/20 Wizard Spellcasting, HP 5d10+1d10+3d8+2d8 + CON Modifier


Lark, after countless trials, proved himself worthy and is initiated as a Bladesinger, where he learned everything he can.

Lark the Bladesinger and Elven Paragon (ECL 20)
Class 19 (Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 10) (171,000 XP)/
RHD 6 (Half-Elf Paragon 3/Elf Paragon 3) (21,000 XP)
= ECL 20 (192,000 XP)
BAB 20, CL 20, 17/20 Wizard Spellcasting, HP 5d10+1d10+3d8+3d8+9d8 + CON Modifier


Edit:
4th Rule of thumb using this system
If Paragon classes are not used as a special RHD, monsters with inherent spellcasting, manifesting and initating (Maneuvers) abilities will have their spells per day, known and CL a maximum of their ECL -1.

If Paragon classes are used, monsters with inherent spellcasting, manifesting and initating (Maneuvers) abilities will have their spells per day, known and CL a maximum of their ECL.

My thanks to all, which contributed with their advice and feedback, especially TEO Ultimus, which made this extensive table.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-qsDlIYBx7dnyW8h27zeL378nkT6f4sRkIQzrtpdaz8/edit#gid=0

It displays all possible combinations up to the maximum XP one can gather before hitting Epic Levels.

Edit:
5th Rule of thumb using this system
If do not play Epic, the maximum XP Cap for Class levels, Racial Hit Die and Level Adjustment are together 209,000 XP.
Excess XP is tracked at this point seperately and can be used for everything, which requires XP, like for creating magic items as a example. If you lose a class level, RHD or LA due level loss and similiar, you cannot use the excess XP to regain them. You keep in all cases the excess XP and is unaffected by level loss.

Morphic tide
2021-06-08, 09:28 PM
So basically make all Level Adjustment work like Necropolitan, where it docks you the XP instead of being extra hard character levels you'll never get the hit dice for? The Racial Hit Dice table should generalize to the midpoints, perhaps even turning into virtual LA at some point (namely for somewhere in ECL 4-6, as you then start running into cases where you qualify for PRCs off the bat and may lose literally no class features as a result), as they're indicative of getting enormous raw statistical modifiers to everything relevant for the monster's niche, and you are getting hard hit dice with what eventually become bonus feats and curve-exceeding BAB in the process.

ThanatosZero
2021-06-09, 01:07 PM
Thank you for the feedback Morphic Tide.
I made now the change that HDs, BAB, Spellcasting Ability and Skill Ranks are now capped by the maximum ECL.
If the ECL increases, you gain now the unused benefits.

ThanatosZero
2021-06-20, 07:51 AM
The 1st post has been improved on, also Racial Paragon Classes are now treated in this system as RHD, which help out evening the playing field with PCs, which have RHD and LA.

Morphic tide
2021-06-23, 02:09 PM
Okay, so, gotten thinking about this again because of the thread asking about the viability of LA (why no link back here in the post you re-posted this in?), so I'll whip up the two main level "tradeoff" tables for the most basic version:



Top Level
Secondary Level
Leftover XP at ECL 20


19th (171k XP)
6th (15k XP)
5k


18th (153k XP)
9th (36 XP)
1k


17th (136k XP)
10th (45k XP)
9k


16th (120k XP)
12th (66k XP)
4k


15th (105k XP)
13th (78k XP)
7k


14th (91k XP)
14th (91k XP)
8k




Note: Starts at 3rd as 1st has no XP value and 2nd can't really "split" into anything, and leaving out the levels that don't change the returned level. Calculation is how much the "current level" XP would offer, so at 10th level you have the 9k XP to go from 9th to 10th, therefor ending up with 1k XP to work with per level. Thus the lack of remaining XP because only 3rd has any.



ECL
Levels for trading top level


3
2nd (1k XP)


4
3rd (3k XP)


7
4th (6k XP)


11
5th (10k XP)


16
6th (15k XP)




The thing about needing to "burn" the XP to the next level to "activate" the class table doesn't technically change the ECL breakpoints on the second, but is... Rather annoying to calculate for the first table, because it varies with starting level and ordering and involves having some amount of LA, RHD, and class levels so the "leftover" XP is actually being used in some capacity.

ThanatosZero
2021-12-24, 12:26 PM
Update: See 1st post, 4th Rule of Thumb.

ThanatosZero
2022-02-02, 06:35 AM
Update: See 1st post, 5th Rule of Thumb.

ThanatosZero
2023-02-04, 12:19 AM
It has been a year and I have been wondering.

My question for our 3.5e fans is the following, do you consider to try out the three XP Buckets Method?