[3.5] Skills For A Lawyer

[Thurbane]

Say I'm making an Expert (NPC class) who is a lawyer.

What 10 skills should he select to focus entirely on his profession (for an NPC, doesn't have to be optimized for adventuring or anything).

My picks would be:


Autohypnosis [specifically, the Memorize function]
Bluff
Diplomacy
Gather Information
Intimidate
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (law) [this is a thing, according to Arms & Equipment Guide]
Knowledge (local)
Profession (lawyer)
Sense Motive

Is there anything I've missed? Or any you would swap out in place of others?

Cheers - T

[Duke of Urrel]

Forgery skill should be added. This can be used to detect a forgery as well as to create one.

[mattie_p]

According to Sharn: City of Towers, Profession (Barrister) is both appropriate and necessary for a trial lawyer (rules presented on p132).

[Zanos]

If he plans to defend clients in fiendish courts, he'll need Diplomacy, Knowledge(the planes) and Perform(acting). Per fiendish codex 2, the results of those 3 skills are added together to determine the winner in legal battles over condemned souls.

[Arael666]

Forgery skill should be added. This can be used to detect a forgery as well as to create one.

He should have experts for that. While it can be usefull to be able to detect a forged signature, it is not a required skill for a lawyer to have.

[InvisibleBison]

Perform(oratory) might be useful if he's a trial lawyer.

[Cygnia]

Decipher Script, if only to translate Legalese. And maybe learn the Infernal language just in case. :smallamused:

[daremetoidareyo]

I think there’s a feat that gives you supernatural understanding of local laws. Something to do with tyr

[Thurbane]

I think there’s a feat that gives you supernatural understanding of local laws. Something to do with tyr

Knight of Tyr's Holy Judgment.

Not aware of that one before. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

[Maat Mons]

Arms and Equipment Guide is a 3.0 sourcebook. There was some consolidation of skills in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5. I seem to remember something about a deliberate effort to reduce Knowledge down to a few, standardized subskills, instead of having new ones introduced in new source books. But my memory might be playing tricks on me. In any case, check with the individual DM before trying to take ranks in Knowledge (law).

I'm not sure if it makes sense to stress over all 10 choices of class skill. Without a very impressive (by NPC standards) Int score, you're not maxing out 10 skills, even with the 6+Int skill points per level from Expert. Granted, extra class skills can increase the efficiency of sprinkling a few skill points each around a large number of skills. But to a large extent, the Able Learner feat would cover you just fine.

Are Gather Information and Knowledge (local) really needed for a lawyer? They seem more like skills for a detective. I'm also not really sure about Knowledge (history). I think legal history is the only kind that matters when winning a court case. And that seems like it would fall under Knowledge (law), assuming that skill is ruled to exist in a 3.5 game.

[Telonius]

Are Gather Information and Knowledge (local) really needed for a lawyer? They seem more like skills for a detective. I'm also not really sure about Knowledge (history). I think legal history is the only kind that matters when winning a court case. And that seems like it would fall under Knowledge (law), assuming that skill is ruled to exist in a 3.5 game.

Depends on the nature of the cases and the local laws. You need to know what sorts of arguments are going to convince the judge, jury, or whatever official you're arguing before. Knowledge (Local) could help you there. If you're a defense attorney, you might very well need to do a bit of investigation on your own, especially if the authorities aren't going to do much to help you out. So Gather Information would be pretty reasonable.

[Thurbane]

Actually, now that I look at it, looks like Knowledge (law) got folded into Knowledge (local):


Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)

[Lilapop]

I think there’s a feat that gives you supernatural understanding of local laws. Something to do with tyr

IIRC, the prestige class justiciar of tyr also gives a bonus to checks on legal matters.

[Troacctid]

Depending on your field, the skills you need may vary. Based on a quick search for types of lawyers, additional skills you might want could include but are not limited to:
Animal law: Knowledge (nature) and Animal Handling.
Bankruptcy law: Profession (accountant).
Environmental law: Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature).
Estate/inheritance law: Knowledge (religion).
Immigration law: Speak Language.
International law: Speak Language, Knowledge (geography).
Interplanar law: Knowledge (the planes).
Maritime law: Profession (sailor).
Military law: Profession (soldier).
Real estate law: Knowledge (architecture and engineering).

[Gnaeus]

Depending on your field, the skills you need may vary. Based on a quick search for types of lawyers, additional skills you might want could include but are not limited to:
Animal law: Knowledge (nature) and Animal Handling.
Bankruptcy law: Profession (accountant).
Environmental law: Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature).
Estate/inheritance law: Knowledge (religion).
Immigration law: Speak Language.
International law: Speak Language, Knowledge (geography).
Interplanar law: Knowledge (the planes).
Maritime law: Profession (sailor).
Military law: Profession (soldier).
Real estate law: Knowledge (architecture and engineering).

This is an excellent point. I feel cheated that after 12 years of practice I really don’t feel that I qualify for any profession (accountant) ranks.

[remetagross]

Jump. So that your lawyer can jump through hoops to exploit legal loopholes.

More seriously, you'd like to take the Hardened Criminal (say it's a repentant one who became a lawyer) feat to be able to take 10 on these Diplomacy skills even in the heat of a trial.

[Kitsuneymg]

Knowledge Nobility. If your game is medieval enough, nobles may *be* the law. And having a few ranks just to be able to make the rolls seems good. Think of it as civics for d&d.

[Miss Disaster]

I highly recommend a 3e 3PP sourcebook for those interested in the minutiae and granularity of the forces of law and the systems of justice in your typical D&D campaign setting. It's called 'Crime & Punishment' by Atlas Games - in their Penumbra line of 3e sourcebooks. To note, it came out in 2003 and it's 3.0, not 3.5.

https://dtrpg-public-files.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/images/408/145754-thumb140.jpg

Interestingly, it's written by Keith Baker. And if you poke around for reviews on the book, you'll find it's been fairly well received. I used it a lot years ago. And the real-life lawyer in my gaming group gave it 2 thumbs up!

[liquidformat]

Depending on your field, the skills you need may vary. Based on a quick search for types of lawyers, additional skills you might want could include but are not limited to:
Animal law: Knowledge (nature) and Animal Handling.
Bankruptcy law: Profession (accountant).
Environmental law: Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature).
Estate/inheritance law: Knowledge (religion).
Immigration law: Speak Language.
International law: Speak Language, Knowledge (geography).
Interplanar law: Knowledge (the planes).
Maritime law: Profession (sailor).
Military law: Profession (soldier).
Real estate law: Knowledge (architecture and engineering).

Shouldn't estate/inheritance law be Knowledge (nobility)? Also I personally like the idea of Martial Lore replacing Military Law, it also might work for ambulance wagon chasers for personal injury law if that is a thing in your setting...

Here's some comical ones:
Patent Law: Knowledge (architecture and engineering) or Craft (fill in blank) depending on the subject of the patent.
Copyright Law: Knowledge (arcane), Decipher Script, & Forgery

[Troacctid]

Shouldn't estate/inheritance law be Knowledge (nobility)?
No, because the big complications to inheritances are going to be "Thanks for the resurrection spell, son!" or "Hi, I'm a ghost now!" So if you're going to be planning or executing an estate, you and your client should be prepared for that, and Knowledge (religion) is the relevant skill for it.

[liquidformat]

No, because the big complications to inheritances are going to be "Thanks for the resurrection spell, son!" or "Hi, I'm a ghost now!" So if you're going to be planning or executing an estate, you and your client should be prepared for that, and Knowledge (religion) is the relevant skill for it.

But spells aren't covered by K(Religion) they are covered by spellcraft, and even without magic you are still going to have arguments about who is the 'Heir Apparent'. So seems like combo of K (Nobility, Religion) and Spellcraft would all be important.

Also I could see some issues arising with estate/inheritance because of other spells like baleful polymorph and flesh to stone for example.

[Troacctid]

But spells aren't covered by K(Religion) they are covered by spellcraft, and even without magic you are still going to have arguments about who is the 'Heir Apparent'. So seems like combo of K (Nobility, Religion) and Spellcraft would all be important.

Also I could see some issues arising with estate/inheritance because of other spells like baleful polymorph and flesh to stone for example.
Religion is used for knowledge about undead, deities, and the afterlife, so it's definitely relevant, but you have a good point about transmutations.

Magical law would probably be its own field, to be honest.

[ThanatosZero]

I highly recommend a 3e 3PP sourcebook for those interested in the minutiae and granularity of the forces of law and the systems of justice in your typical D&D campaign setting. It's called 'Crime & Punishment' by Atlas Games - in their Penumbra line of 3e sourcebooks. To note, it came out in 2003 and it's 3.0, not 3.5.

https://dtrpg-public-files.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/images/408/145754-thumb140.jpg

Interestingly, it's written by Keith Baker. And if you poke around for reviews on the book, you'll find it's been fairly well received. I used it a lot years ago. And the real-life lawyer in my gaming group gave it 2 thumbs up!

Then there should be no issues using it. Especially with Ebberon itself. :D

[Tzardok]

Magical Law sounds like it's what the Knowledge (Arcana) skill is made for.

[Malphegor]

I’d recommend the Aftersight feat for a +2 bonus to Knowledge (History) checks and also THE ABILITY TO VIEW THE PAST.

Seriously, it’s a tiny boost mechanically but being able to directly witness events with a middling DC check means you can accurately see what actually happened in the event in question, as that’s some Phoenix Wright level madness for lawyer skills there

[Eldan]

No, because the big complications to inheritances are going to be "Thanks for the resurrection spell, son!" or "Hi, I'm a ghost now!" So if you're going to be planning or executing an estate, you and your client should be prepared for that, and Knowledge (religion) is the relevant skill for it.

Clearly, Estate Lawyers are sun clerics. If only so they can go up to the ghostly deceased and use the one-liner "Your estate has been… executed!"

[Thurbane]

Thanks for all the great suggestions and feedback everyone, I'll sift through it when I get a moment. https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

I started looking into Skill Tricks as well, but few seem all that relevant for a barrister - I was expecting more of the Interaction or Mental ones to be apt, but I'm just not sure.

- Listen to This - could actually be quite useful, I guess.
- Social Recovery - maybe?

[emulord]

Shouldn't bankruptcy law's associated skill be Appraise ?

Gotta have a good accounting of the values of things when the repo men show up.

[Prime32]

I’d recommend the Aftersight feat for a +2 bonus to Knowledge (History) checks and also THE ABILITY TO VIEW THE PAST.

Seriously, it’s a tiny boost mechanically but being able to directly witness events with a middling DC check means you can accurately see what actually happened in the event in question, as that’s some Phoenix Wright level madness for lawyer skills there
There's always Shape Soulmeld (Beast Tamer's Circlet) + Open Least Chakra (crown), if you want to call the victim's pet to the witness stand.

[Thurbane]

I probably should point out that in the setting I'm thinking of, larger court rooms will have defences against spells, SLAs and supernatural abilities (an AMF or similar), so the lawyer/barrister would mainly need to rely on skill based solutions, or Ex abilities only.

That probably rules out Knight of Tyr's Holy Judgment too. :smallfrown:

[Maat Mons]

A courtroom having an antimagic field feels a little bit like a courtroom having an "anti-DNA evidence" field. Like the court is going really far out of its way to prevent the light of truth from entering.

[daremetoidareyo]

The iaijutsu master feat let’s you replace any skill roll with your iaijutsu focus modifiers. Pair that with jack of all trades and you can once a day defeat your opponent in any arena of skill check by investing in a single skill. Iaijutsu focus.

[Thurbane]

A courtroom having an antimagic field feels a little bit like a courtroom having an "anti-DNA evidence" field. Like the court is going really far out of its way to prevent the light of truth from entering.

Mainly so no one can magically tamper with witnesses or the jury, or, yanno, Fireball the judge! :smallbiggrin:

[Troacctid]

A courtroom having an antimagic field feels a little bit like a courtroom having an "anti-DNA evidence" field. Like the court is going really far out of its way to prevent the light of truth from entering.
Most of that stuff wouldn't take place during the trial. It would be done ahead of time, in a deposition. By the time the trial starts, you'd have all the evidence already, neat and tidy in a three-ring binder. So it shouldn't be an issue.

[Maat Mons]

As I mentioned earlier, Hallow is sufficient to negate Charm, Dominate, and Possession. That takes care of the possibility of tampering with the judge, jury, and witnesses. And it does it without sacrificing valuable tools that could help bring justice.

As for being Fire Balled in the face, that's just a risk you accept when you become a judge.



If the deposition doesn't use the same magical defenses as the trial, then you can just tamper there, and the trial will be using whatever false information you decide to plant. Just mind-control all the witnesses, and then alter their memories. Or just alter their memories of whatever they're testifying about ahead of time. It's okay as long as you know they won't be called in for the part of the process that happens inside magical wards.

No, no. The deposition must have the same measures taken as the trial itself. Otherwise it's like locking your door but leaving a window open. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. That's just as true of a chain of evidence as it is of any other type.

[Thurbane]

If it helps you feel better about the court's defences, you could assume it is an extremely LN or even LE society running the system, and they are more worried about magical interference at time of trial than anything else.

Also, as mentioned, the magical detecting-type work should all be taking place well before the trial, and/or in a separate location(s).

End of the day, this whole scenario takes place at my table in my gaming group, and the barristers have to work within those constraints.

I'd rather not bog down this thread with the moral and legal implications of running a court system in a high fantasy world, if at all possible.

All I'm after is some mechanical suggestions on skills, and maybe Ex abilities.

[Voldine]

Magical Law sounds like it's what the Knowledge (Arcana) skill is made for.
Knowledge (Arcana) is more regarding the supernatural laws that govern the usage of magic within the constraints of the campaign setting. It wouldn't likely be 100% distinct from the laws that governments pass restricting the usage of the supernatural forces known as magic, so there's probably a synergy bonus to be gained.

[Fouredged Sword]

One thing you are going to want to do is realize that in most cases a lawyer is going to have time to prepare statements. That means you have time to do research. You can get a lot of bonuses to your knowledge checks with money and time.

A Tome of Worldly Memory, 3000gp, grants +10 to a knowledge check once a day. You put in 1d4 hours of research and boom, +10 to your check and you can make it untrained. This is really useful when paired with...
A Book of Knowledge. This one is pricy if you want all knowledges. A Book of Knowledge that covers every subject costs 21K gold. It has a number of stacking bonuses, including a different +5 bonus from the Tome of Worldly Memory and the ability to make checks untrained and even take 10 on them. Stacking the pair allows you to take a couple of hours and produce a 25+Ranks+int mod knowledge check on any subject regardless of if you have ranks in that knowledge. This is essentially the ability to take 25 on all knowledge checks by spending a couple of minutes to research it.

This is very useful as you then don't need to place ranks of knowledge into things you don't need at a moment's notice. If it's DC 25+int or lower, you know it. If it's a higher DC than that, you hire an expert, whom you can lend your tomes. You should be, with a headband of intellect and a heroic point spread, be at +4-5 int mod, so you are hitting the DC30 "really hard question" mark every time even on knowledges you have no ranks in.

That's... well... really really useful if you want a broad base of knowledge and limited skillpoints.

And on top of this, you can be a level 3 cleric or archivist and replace the +5 competence bonus from the book of knowledge with guidance of the avatar to be nailing 40+int mod.

Or just buy a few potions. +20 to a check in a bottle is more useful than most people give it credit for. 300gp a pop is expensive, but it can be worth it to make a critical argument or pass a critical knowledge check. If your client is rich enough you can even pass on the cost as the price of having a good lawyer on retainer.

[mattie_p]

I probably should point out that in the setting I'm thinking of, larger court rooms will have defences against spells, SLAs and supernatural abilities (an AMF or similar), so the lawyer/barrister would mainly need to rely on skill based solutions, or Ex abilities only.

That probably rules out Knight of Tyr's Holy Judgment too. :smallfrown:

Thurbane, sounds like a great place for a Watch Detective, no?

[Gnaeus]

Shouldn't bankruptcy law's associated skill be Appraise ?

Gotta have a good accounting of the values of things when the repo men show up.

No that’s the trustee’s job. And if you contest their valuation you hire an expert.

[Thurbane]

OK, so still within necro limits: I'm now going to amend this question, to be for a Factotum, rather than the Expert NPC class.

This means, with Int boosts, you are no longer limited to 10 skills.

How would you build a Factotum to be a defence or prosecution barrister, within those same limits of mainly relying on skills, non-magical feats, and Ex abilities.

Assume he is a full time lawyer, so doesn't need spend resources to be competent at adventuring.


Autohypnosis
Bluff
Diplomacy
Intimidate
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (nobility and royalty)
Perform (oratory or acting)
Profession (Barrister)
Sense Motive

[daremetoidareyo]

Favored in house seems like a good one.