What is the point of Flock of Familiars?

[Segev]

I know it's an obscure spell in a moderately obscure module, but the idea first sounds cool and then I start asking, "why would you want this?"

What it does is let you use an action and a 2nd level spell slot to get a Concentration-up-to-one-hour duration set of 3 familiars (plus one per spell slot level above 2 you cast it from).

So, the good:
You get 3 familiars - the only way to have multiple familiars at once!
Just Verbal and Somatic components, so no material cost - so they're not 10 gp to replace and no amount of "well, you used up your reagents for that spell and have to find them; no, you can't just pour ten 10 on the ground to do this" will get in your way.
One action casting time - no need to take 60 to 70 minutes to replace them if they go away.

And the bad:
Concentration, so it competes for that resource (this is a biggie)
This means if you take damage, they can poof
Can't use dragon's breath on even one of them
Or any other Concentration spell, so they'd better be contributing a lot!
Only lasts 1 hour at most (so if you need their services for longer, you have to cast it again)
Specifically, you can't channel a touch spell through more than one per turn (though how useful this is in any event is still questionable, to me)
If you already have one via find familiar, you get one fewer from this spell
Not a ritual, so eats a 2nd level spell slot

But the biggest thing that makes me stop and ask, "Wait, why?" is this: what, exactly, does having 3 familiars let you do that having 1 does not? Explore? One familiar exploring for longer is probably more thorough. I... actually am out of ideas. I guess I'm looking for suggestions, ideas on how to use them, reasons why this is cool enough to take rather than other options, both for spells known and for your concentration.

[Contrast]

One familiar exploring for longer is probably more thorough.

I think this is the main use I believe - when time is valuable you can scout terrain 3 times as fast (and out to a mile, unlike the 100ft range on Find Familiar - opens up a lot more detailed scouting options which I think you missed in your pros section). The cost is high at a 2nd level spell slot but sometimes you just want to track down the fleeing villain and time is of the essence. Does that make the spell worth it? Probably not but there you go.

Also your DM might rule there's synergy with Pact of the Chain for 3 improved familiars.

[Segev]

You still can only look through one's eyes at a time, though. How effective is the scouting when they just have telepathic messaging?

Is it purely a scouting spell? Or does it have other uses?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It looks to me like the casting time is 1 minute?

You could... Glyph of Warding a Dragon's Breath onto each one? Not exactly worth the 200 gp per glyph, unless it's an NPC using it. Or just have a cauldron filled with Potion of Fire Breath that they drink from.

It's a Warlock spell, so it automatically gets scaled up to 5th for six familiars by 9th level.

Other than scouting or keeping an eye on things, I don't really see a lot of use for it.

[ATHATH]

Help action spam?

[Temperjoke]

Well, I'd say that people have hit the uses for it. Something I noticed though, the familiars don't have to be the same type of animal. So you could summon a bat to detect someone invisible, while having an owl waiting to swoop in to deliver a spell. If you have to watch more than one spot, you can station a familiar at each of the spots. Multiple ravens using mimicry for distractions might be useful. Maybe use one familiar to deliver another familiar, like a hawk dropping a snake on someone?

[Dork_Forge]

Searching through a dungeon very, very quickly and more efficiently but I don't think anyone has noted this yet:

It's a Warlock spell, which means that a Chainlock could summon a small swarm of Imps (or other) which greatly increases it's potency.

[J-H]

Searching through a dungeon very, very quickly and more efficiently but I don't think anyone has noted this yet:

It's a Warlock spell, which means that a Chainlock could summon a small swarm of Imps (or other) which greatly increases it's potency.

Ding ding, I think we have the thread winner here. At 3rd level, having 3 invisible allies with flight, AC 13/10hp, darkvision, magic resistance, and a +5 w/ advantage to hit for 1d4+3 + 3d6 poison (save half) rider is a huge boost. They don't scale too well at higher levels, but even at 9th level, putting 5 invisible minions on the table is great against low-AC enemies or low-level enemy casters.

[RSP]

Definitely an “ask your DM” on whether FoF can summon Chain Pact critters. Chain’s wording is:

“When you cast [Find Familiar], you can choose one of the normal forms for your familiar or one of the following special forms: imp, pseudodragon, quasit, or sprite.”

When you cast FoF, you specifically are not casting Find Familiar, so an argument could be made, RAW, this doesn’t work.

Likewise, FoF states: “Each familiar uses the same rules and options for a familiar conjured by the Find Familiar spell.”

The Chain Pact ability does allow the Warlock to summon off menu, but the menu (in this case the FF spell’s RAW) doesn’t change.

So, yeah, I’d ask your DM if interested in this approach.

[8wGremlin]

I've had a chainlock use them with sprite archers and the invocation that allows them to attack and use your DC's
can be reasonably effective, and can get them all going at level 3!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Ignoring Chainlock shenanigans, I've always taken it as a scouting spell.

I had a player use it track an illusionist through Sharn once, though. That was fun.

[KorvinStarmast]

What is the point of Flock of Familiars? There isn't one. It's a crap spell.
Our wizard thought it was so cool at level 3. He asked the DM if he could use it. By level 6, he stopped and has never bothered with it again.

Yet another "good idea" that wasn't.

As for scouting, the rats kept getting eaten.

[Pex]

There isn't one. It's a crap spell.
Our wizard thought it was so cool at level 3. He asked the DM if he could use it. By level 6, he stopped and has never bothered with it again.

Yet another "good idea" that wasn't.

As for scouting, the rats kept getting eaten.

Rats getting eaten tells me the DM purposely nerfed the spell to uselessness, guessing because he didn't want the PC to scout the area. How dare players know things! Getting eaten once for the joke of it when it doesn't really hurt the PC, fine. More than that is DM targeting.

[Chaos Paladin]

So, the good:
You get 3 familiars - the only way to have multiple familiars at once!
Just Verbal and Somatic components, so no material cost - so they're not 10 gp to replace and no amount of "well, you used up your reagents for that spell and have to find them; no, you can't just pour ten 10 on the ground to do this" will get in your way.
One action casting time - no need to take 60 to 70 minutes to replace them if they go away.

And the bad:
Concentration, so it competes for that resource (this is a biggie)
This means if you take damage, they can poof
Can't use dragon's breath on even one of them
Or any other Concentration spell, so they'd better be contributing a lot!
Only lasts 1 hour at most (so if you need their services for longer, you have to cast it again)
Specifically, you can't channel a touch spell through more than one per turn (though how useful this is in any event is still questionable, to me)
If you already have one via find familiar, you get one fewer from this spell
Not a ritual, so eats a 2nd level spell slot


2 things:

1) In combat, I actually find it helpful to compare this spell to Bless. Each familiar rolls its own combat initiative, and each can take the Help action for you or your companions, giving three (or more, if you upcast) players advantage on one attack per turn.

Good:
-Bless is also concentration, but lasts for 1 minute instead of 1 hour
-Advantage is better than +1d4 for attacks, as it increases the chance of a critical hit

Bad:
-They don't grant any bonus to saves like Bless does. If one of your companions is dying, your DM might rule that a familiar can make a medicine check to stabilize them, but YMMV.
-They can only grant advantage to one attack roll per turn, not all of them.
-As you say, they poof if they take any damage--so they're in danger from AOE effects, as well as you losing your concentration.

I would say this is a good combat spell when a) you have a lot of friends making actual attack rolls and b) your enemies can't do AOE effects. Yes, an enemy could still attack and kill a familiar pretty easily, but that would be one less attack directed at your less-replacable party members. You could potentially also use one familiar to Help, and have the rest flying far above the fight to swoop in and replace the first one if it's destroyed--but then you're only helping one person at a time.

2) Find Familiar lets you communicate with/use the senses of one familiar within 100 feet. Flock of Familiars lets you do the same thing, but has a range of one mile.

And you have three of these guys! Within an hour you could conceivably explore a whole dungon before you even have to enter, if your spiders are sneaky enough. You could comb a city with three hawk scouts to find that NPC you're pursuing. Or maybe leave one outside a building to watch your back, and still have two in case of combat.

Basically, I would say this spell has the potential to be extremely useful, but it's pretty situation-dependent. If you fight a lot of dragons, or don't have to deal with time limits all that much, this may not be the spell for you.

[CheddarChampion]

A potentially better version of Detect Traps?
I know that's a low bar to set.

[Hytheter]

Sometimes you just wanna have three birds.

[follacchioso]

It's a great spell if you know how to use it.

Compare it with clairvoyance, which is a 3rd level spell with a 100gp component. You get three "sensors", which are not invisible but take the form of common animals that an enemy is likely to ignore. You have a duration of one hour, compared to 10 minutes. Clairvoyance allows to place the sensor directly where you want to spy, while the familiars will have to travel to get there, but I think this is balanced by the fact that you have three.

There is also the factor that you can deliver touch spells thorough the familiars. This is more efficient if you have access to cure wounds and inflict wounds, allowing to effectively figth an enemy from 1 mile away.
Other wizards spells are useful, you could upcast bestow curse on an enemy and have your rats curse your opponents while you sit safely away.

[Kane0]

I know it's an obscure spell in a moderately obscure module, but the idea first sounds cool and then I start asking, "why would you want this?"



Yeah you got me, where's it from?

Sounds potentially useful with the aforementioned chain pact warlock, but other than that a little lacklustre (bit of a tend with second level spells?)

[Drakefall]

I mean, I think the greatest benefit of this spell is pretty obvious. You can have three magical cats to play with instead of just one for an hour. That's pretty dope.

More pragmatically, there are uses for having multiple vantage points you can swap between in an instance. You can use it as a pretty low-resource way of setting up a bunch of CCTV cameras over the tavern you're hiding out in, you can cheat handily at a high stakes poker game, you can search an area rapidly when time is of the essence.

Does it have a straightforward white room use? Not really. Can it be useful often enough to be worth taking? Sure.

Most importantly though, and I will reiterate, you can have more cats.

[sambojin]

You can also chuck a lot of caltrops or ball bearings with this. Or flaming oil. And even set it alight with another familiar the same turn.

Or headbutt all the traps with them. Every single one. Ok, like three of them, but that's pretty good trap removal :)

Yeah, it's low-key stuff, but chucking extra low DC rolls on top of control/instant spells means something will probably stick, sometimes way better than just the spell itself would do.

And there's Goodberry delivery service and spamming help actions as mentioned too. It sort of reads "3 creatures now have advantage against them for the first attack each round, until the familiars die", oh, and "cure light wounds now has a familiar's movement range of you nab the spell somehow". I mean, it's not bad.

I honestly wish they'd made it a druid spell. It seems odd that they didn't. I'd use it sometimes, even with Tasha's summons available. There's always shenanigans available with druids.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah you got me, where's it from?

Sounds potentially useful with the aforementioned chain pact warlock, but other than that a little lacklustre (bit of a tend with second level spells?)

Lost Labratory of Kwalish, lots of weird items and spells in it, including one that makes a little wooden tower.

[Contrast]

At 3rd level, having 3 invisible allies with flight, AC 13/10hp, darkvision, magic resistance, and a +5 w/ advantage to hit for 1d4+3 + 3d6 poison (save half) rider is a huge boost.

YMMV on this. I'd totally allow Pact of the Chain to combo but you'd still have to command each one to attack individually by my reading.


Yeah you got me, where's it from

Lost Laboratory of Kwalish (an adventure module). Also featuring Galders Tower, another cool but questionable spell.

[Joe the Rat]

Three scouts - A less effective / complete replacement for detect traps, locate object, hunter's mark, clair(voy/audi)ence, and possibly bless (via Help probabilities). At the same time. It's also a way to get a flock of doves, though I think minor illusion or silent image would be more slot-efficient.


Lost Labratory of Kwalish, lots of weird items and spells in it, including one that makes a little wooden tower.
So that's where the tower spell comes from. Be careful with the PRB shenanigans.

[Dork_Forge]

Three scouts - A less effective / complete replacement for detect traps, locate object, hunter's mark, clair(voy/audi)ence, and possibly bless (via Help probabilities). At the same time. It's also a way to get a flock of doves, though I think minor illusion or silent image would be more slot-efficient.


So that's where the tower spell comes from. Be careful with the PRB shenanigans.

PRB shenanigans?

[Joe the Rat]

PRB shenanigans?

Patrick Rothfuss Bullstink.

[nickl_2000]

You could also get three different types of familiars.

An Owl/Hawk to watch from the sky, a rat/squirrel to watch the ground, and a Octopus to watch underwater. That way all three entry points are covered. Still it's an edge case though.


The most important part I see if the range increase to 1 mile.

[Segev]

Patrick Rothfuss Bullstink.

I still am puzzled. While I've read the first two of his Kingkiller Chronicles, I'm not sure what this refers to in context of that module.



The mile long range is important and something I forgot. ...does this extend to your find familiar-granted familiar, since it eats a "slot" in the flock of familiars spell?

[Selion]

I know it's an obscure spell in a moderately obscure module, but the idea first sounds cool and then I start asking, "why would you want this?"

What it does is let you use an action and a 2nd level spell slot to get a Concentration-up-to-one-hour duration set of 3 familiars (plus one per spell slot level above 2 you cast it from).

So, the good:
You get 3 familiars - the only way to have multiple familiars at once!
Just Verbal and Somatic components, so no material cost - so they're not 10 gp to replace and no amount of "well, you used up your reagents for that spell and have to find them; no, you can't just pour ten 10 on the ground to do this" will get in your way.
One action casting time - no need to take 60 to 70 minutes to replace them if they go away.

And the bad:
Concentration, so it competes for that resource (this is a biggie)
This means if you take damage, they can poof
Can't use dragon's breath on even one of them
Or any other Concentration spell, so they'd better be contributing a lot!
Only lasts 1 hour at most (so if you need their services for longer, you have to cast it again)
Specifically, you can't channel a touch spell through more than one per turn (though how useful this is in any event is still questionable, to me)
If you already have one via find familiar, you get one fewer from this spell
Not a ritual, so eats a 2nd level spell slot

But the biggest thing that makes me stop and ask, "Wait, why?" is this: what, exactly, does having 3 familiars let you do that having 1 does not? Explore? One familiar exploring for longer is probably more thorough. I... actually am out of ideas. I guess I'm looking for suggestions, ideas on how to use them, reasons why this is cool enough to take rather than other options, both for spells known and for your concentration.


Familiars summoned by this spell can telepathically communicate with you and share their visual or auditory senses while they are within 1 mile of you.

I think it's the best scouting mechanics in the game by level 3, common familiars have just 100 ft sharing senses range

[Sigreid]

It could just be an example of a spell that didn't quite work out. As people create spells there have to be more that are hot garbage, better in theory than implementation than are worthy of others copying.

[Dork_Forge]

Ultimately why not? Both Warlocks and Wizards shouldn't have a problem with spells known, it's a lot of value out of a 2nd level slot and can actually interact with the Exploration pillar in a manner that isn't just handwaving it away. If anything it gives more credence to the notion of ordinary familiars being incredibly useful scouts, as you get more of them, with longer range, for no monetary cost and you can choose an appropriate for at the time of use (Owls flying around a lot of places is just going to be weird).

[JackPhoenix]

The point? It's from a charity-related book. Presumably some child wanted to have a bunch of animal pets, and the spell got printed.

It doesn't need to have use for hard-core optimizers.

[Segev]

Ultimately why not? Both Warlocks and Wizards shouldn't have a problem with spells known, it's a lot of value out of a 2nd level slot and can actually interact with the Exploration pillar in a manner that isn't just handwaving it away. If anything it gives more credence to the notion of ordinary familiars being incredibly useful scouts, as you get more of them, with longer range, for no monetary cost and you can choose an appropriate for at the time of use (Owls flying around a lot of places is just going to be weird).

The longer range is interesting. I feel like it being "familiars" should make it more than just scouting, but then, I suppose that's a familiar's primary use, too.

Could you elaborate on the bolded part? Wizards, sure, they have spellbooks and prepare a lot of spells each day, but why do you say "Warlocks...shouldn't have a problem with spells known?" They know relatively few.

[Dork_Forge]

The longer range is interesting. I feel like it being "familiars" should make it more than just scouting, but then, I suppose that's a familiar's primary use, too.

Could you elaborate on the bolded part? Wizards, sure, they have spellbooks and prepare a lot of spells each day, but why do you say "Warlocks...shouldn't have a problem with spells known?" They know relatively few.

Simply because imo Warlocks shouldn't rely on spells from slots, they lean more on cantrips, invocations, pacts and patron abilties and the spells they do pick need to keep scaling in mind. Whenever I've built a Warlock I've always had to stretch to fill the spells known, because having to cast at a fixed level really makes you reevaluate what you take to begin with and what you keep as you level up.

Flock of Familiars has built in scaling, which automatically makes it a decent choice for a utility spell on a Warlock, if your DM lets the Chain benefit carry over then it's pretty potent and worth it's place on the list (especially if you're leaning into the Chain aspect of your 'lock).

[follacchioso]

The point? It's from a charity-related book. Presumably some child wanted to have a bunch of animal pets, and the spell got printed.

It doesn't need to have use for hard-core optimizers.the true story is more sad than that. It comes from an user who wanted to submit contents to wotc in the few weeks he had left before dying of cancer.

The book is also published for a charity that helps kids with cancer.


And the bad:
Concentration, so it competes for that resource (this is a biggie)
This means if you take damage, they can poof
Can't use dragon's breath on even one of them
Or any other Concentration spell, so they'd better be contributing a lotFlock of familiars is not concentration.

[Kane0]

Simply because imo Warlocks shouldn't rely on spells from slots, they lean more on cantrips, invocations, pacts and patron abilties and the spells they do pick need to keep scaling in mind. Whenever I've built a Warlock I've always had to stretch to fill the spells known, because having to cast at a fixed level really makes you reevaluate what you take to begin with and what you keep as you level up.


That doesnt follow, you say warlocks aren't particularly strained for spells known because they have other things, then say yourself that your warlocks have been strained for spells known.

Personally I would say they are a little strained as a known caster but not as restrictively as sorcerers and rangers. About on par as Bard with differing considerations

[Segev]

Flock of familiars is not concentration.I just looked it up. It is. In case I am somehow missing something, though, where are you looking that you're seeing it lacking Concentration in its duration?

[Arkhios]

I guess it could come in handy if you wanted to be at the ready to deliver touch spells to several targets, not knowing where you might need your familiar to be next, you could theoretically position one familiar near each ally.

[Temperjoke]

I guess it could come in handy if you wanted to be at the ready to deliver touch spells to several targets, not knowing where you might need your familiar to be next, you could theoretically position one familiar near each ally.

That's an interesting thought. If you're a celestial warlock, or some combination of healing-capable class and wizard or warlock, you give three of your allies a familiar clinging to them, like a snake around the waist or something like that. Then you send touch healing spells through the familiars. Pretty niche use, but it'd help you if they move out of range of a normal healing spell, or if you're stuck in place for some reason.

[Dork_Forge]

That doesnt follow, you say warlocks aren't particularly strained for spells known because they have other things, then say yourself that your warlocks have been strained for spells known.

Personally I would say they are a little strained as a known caster but not as restrictively as sorcerers and rangers. About on par as Bard with differing considerations

I mean that I have struggled to fill my potential spells known, not through over abundance of choice, but rather the opposite: my role was already accounted for and the amount of spells that do well with auto scaling isn't large if you're actually theming a character to a certain role. It's been a case of oh I have one or two left... *looks through spell list* none of this is particularly compelling/fits I guess I'll settle for x and y then.

[SharkForce]

I would look at it somewhat differently:

consider level 5; you have 2 spell slots, each level 3. you know 6 spells that you can use those slots to cast.

you've probably chosen one or two combat spells that you're likely to spam. do you really need a third through sixth? you've already got a fallback option of just dealing damage, how many different options do you need?

the result of this is that you have probably 1-2 spells that cover 90% of your combat needs, and *maybe* you have 1-2 spells that cover 90% of your non-combat needs. that leaves you with spells that you can basically just say "eh, maybe this will come in handy some day".

there is a lot less pressure on a warlock's spells known. you can leave highly situational spells in your spells known because you simply don't need to know that many spells.

edit: bah, forgot to make my original point.

the spell looks pretty decent to me. 3 familiars, one hour, 1 mile range, that's a pretty powerful exploration spell for a level 2 spell slot. I don't know that I'd use it constantly, but it would certainly be a welcome addition for my wizard.

[Darth Credence]

You have to pick the right familiars for it to work. If you pick seagulls, then it will increase your endurance enough that you can run, all night and day, getting so far away.
Unfortunately, even then, you won't be able to get away.

[Segev]

You have to pick the right familiars for it to work. If you pick seagulls, then it will increase your endurance enough that you can run, all night and day, getting so far away.
Unfortunately, even then, you won't be able to get away.

That's a pretty forceful point.


the spell looks pretty decent to me. 3 familiars, one hour, 1 mile range, that's a pretty powerful exploration spell for a level 2 spell slot. I don't know that I'd use it constantly, but it would certainly be a welcome addition for my wizard.

Would you, as a DM or in discussion with a DM, allow/argue that your find familiar-granted familiar would also benefit from the increased-to-a-mile range on sense sharing? I believe, as worded, the spell doesn't do that, despite reducing the number of familiars it grants by 1 if you already have a familiar from find familiar.

[8wGremlin]

You have to pick the right familiars for it to work. If you pick seagulls, then it will increase your endurance enough that you can run, all night and day, getting so far away.
Unfortunately, even then, you won't be able to get away.

um how and why would you pick seagulls, where are they from?

[Darth Credence]

um how and why would you pick seagulls, where are they from?

It was a joke that truly reveals my age. I see "Flock of..." and my mind goes to the '80s band Flock of Seagulls, and their one hit song, "I Ran". If you want the experience, here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIpfWORQWhU

[thorr-kan]

It was a joke that truly reveals my age. I see "Flock of..." and my mind goes to the '80s band Flock of Seagulls, and their one hit song, "I Ran". If you want the experience, here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIpfWORQWhU
*I* knew what you meant. And I think that pun was TERRIBLE.

Also, adds to swarm full of swarm builds?
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629907-Fairy-swarmkeeper-3-feylock-3-lets-you-play-a-ton-of-fairies-How-do-you-build-it

[Joe the Rat]

I still am puzzled. While I've read the first two of his Kingkiller Chronicles, I'm not sure what this refers to in context of that module.



The mile long range is important and something I forgot. ...does this extend to your find familiar-granted familiar, since it eats a "slot" in the flock of familiars spell?
It's from his playing time (most visibly with Acq. Inc.). Short version is, he gets up to some seriously twisty setups to try and explain getting sneak attack, advantage, or why talking down a demigod could be rolled with acrobatics. The last being slight hyperbole.

On the second... I would rule it as such. You are losing a summons (unless having your familiar "banished" frees it up), and it would simplify bookeeping.


It was a joke that truly reveals my age. I see "Flock of..." and my mind goes to the '80s band Flock of Seagulls, and their one hit song, "I Ran". If you want the experience, here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIpfWORQWhUOh, we got it all right...

[Kuulvheysoon]

It was a joke that truly reveals my age. I see "Flock of..." and my mind goes to the '80s band Flock of Seagulls, and their one hit song, "I Ran". If you want the experience, here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIpfWORQWhU

Dammit, that means that I'm old too. Bugger.

[SharkForce]

Would you, as a DM or in discussion with a DM, allow/argue that your find familiar-granted familiar would also benefit from the increased-to-a-mile range on sense sharing? I believe, as worded, the spell doesn't do that, despite reducing the number of familiars it grants by 1 if you already have a familiar from find familiar.

unless someone came up with a *really* compelling reason, I'd probably allow it. heck, I'd probably just rule that your existing familiar gets stored for the duration so that you still have the 3 expendable ones the spell gives you, because why not?

[ftafp]

This spell definitely has some uses in chainlock builds, though I'm not sure it's necessarily a good option. You could poison a decent number of enemies with summoned sprites then drop concentration.