The Stink Touch: What Exactly Does Symbiotic Entity Apply to?

[aadder]

Hello everyone,

I've been roped-into a one-off, and on top of that roped into playing a healer, which I do NOT want to do, but if i have to do that, i thought i'd try out the new Circle of Spores Druid subclass. Reading through that, the ability Symbiotic Entity seems pretty neat, particularly the part that buffs your damage. However, I have no idea exactly what that applies to.

The literal text is: "Your melee weapon attacks deal an additional D6 necrotic damage to any target they hit."

Now, what exactly is encompassed by melee weapon attacks? I -assume- this applies to a weapon you've used Shillelagh on, as a club or quarterstaff is already a weapon. However, does it apply to Flame Blade, for example? That spell, again literal text, "evoke[s] a fiery blade in your free hand. The blade is similar in size and shape to a scimitar, and it lasts for the duration." In addition, "[you] can use you action to make a melee spell attack with the fiery blade." Does it apply to Thorn Whip, which creates a physical object that you can make a melee spell attack with, but is not explicitly the size and shape of a weapon?

I assume it doesn't apply to something like Thorn Whip, but DOES apply to some item affected by Shillelagh, and have no idea about Flame Blade.

If the answer to Flame Blade is no, that greatly saddens me, because if i'm going to be melee-ing with a druid, i'm probably going to be using Flame Blade, in which case what is the point of Symbiotic Entity? It's not like Druids can build for melee fighting with weapons well.

[ftafp]

Hello everyone,

I've been roped-into a one-off, and on top of that roped into playing a healer, which I do NOT want to do, but if i have to do that, i thought i'd try out the new Circle of Spores Druid subclass. Reading through that, the ability Symbiotic Entity seems pretty neat, particularly the part that buffs your damage. However, I have no idea exactly what that applies to.

The literal text is: "Your melee weapon attacks deal an additional D6 necrotic damage to any target they hit."

Now, what exactly is encompassed by melee weapon attacks? I -assume- this applies to a weapon you've used Shillelagh on, as a club or quarterstaff is already a weapon. However, does it apply to Flame Blade, for example? That spell, again literal text, "evoke[s] a fiery blade in your free hand. The blade is similar in size and shape to a scimitar, and it lasts for the duration." In addition, "[you] can use you action to make a melee spell attack with the fiery blade." Does it apply to Thorn Whip, which creates a physical object that you can make a melee spell attack with, but is not explicitly the size and shape of a weapon?

I assume it doesn't apply to something like Thorn Whip, but DOES apply to some item affected by Shillelagh, and have no idea about Flame Blade.

If the answer to Flame Blade is no, that greatly saddens me, because if i'm going to be melee-ing with a druid, i'm probably going to be using Flame Blade, in which case what is the point of Symbiotic Entity? It's not like Druids can build for melee fighting with weapons well.

a spell or ability will tell you if it's a weapon attack or a spell attack.

[CheddarChampion]

A good rule of thumb is that if the attack 1) normally uses Str or Dex and 2) uses your proficiency with a weapon to determine if you can add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll, then the attack is a weapon attack.

All attacks fall under one of five categories:
Melee weapon attack
Ranged weapon attack
Melee spell attack
Ranged spell attack
Unarmed strike

The rules differentiate between melee weapon attacks and unarmed strikes in a few places, it's kinda messy.

Attacking with a club is a weapon attack.
Attacking with a club affected by Shillelagh is a weapon attack, just using a different stat for the roll.
Casting GFB with a club isn't itself a weapon attack, but it leads to one.
Casting GFB with a club affected by Shillelagh isn't itself a weapon attack, but it leads to one, just using a different stat for the roll.

[ftafp]

A good rule of thumb is that if the attack 1) normally uses Str or Dex and 2) uses your proficiency with a weapon to determine if you can add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll, then the attack is a weapon attack.

All attacks fall under one of five categories:
Melee weapon attack
Ranged weapon attack
Melee spell attack
Ranged spell attack
Unarmed strike

The rules differentiate between melee weapon attacks and unarmed strikes in a few places, it's kinda messy.

Attacking with a club is a weapon attack.
Attacking with a club affected by Shillelagh is a weapon attack, just using a different stat for the roll.
Casting GFB with a club isn't itself a weapon attack, but it leads to one.
Casting GFB with a club affected by Shillelagh isn't itself a weapon attack, but it leads to one, just using a different stat for the roll.

this is somewhat incorrect. an unarmed strike is a melee weapon attack. The problem is it's not considered "attack with a weapon" which is a separate thing, UNLESS the unarmed strike is made with a Natural Weapon, which some races get. Another confusing issue is that some abilities let you make an attack as an action, but those abilities do not use the Attack Action, so for example you might cast booming blade and make a weapon attack, but the action you took is the Cast A Spell action.

basically go with what the spell says. if the spell says it makes a spell attack then you're making a spell attack. if it doesn't mention a spell attack but it creates, attacks with or enhances a weapon, attacks with that weapon are weapon attacks.

[CheddarChampion]

this is somewhat incorrect. an unarmed strike is a melee weapon attack. The problem is it's not considered "attack with a weapon" which is a separate thing, UNLESS the unarmed strike is made with a Natural Weapon, which some races get.

Ah, I see. At least I had the right idea when I said the rules for it were a mess.

[aadder]

So, despite the fact that it creates essentially a weapon, Flame Blade would NOT benefit from this then?

[ZiddyT]

It would not, since an attack with Flame Blade is a melee spell attack, not a melee weapon attack
You could always ask your DM for rule of cool, though. Flame blade is a weak spell, it wouldn't break anything to allow the interaction to work.

[ftafp]

Ah, I see. At least I had the right idea when I said the rules for it were a mess.

its not a mess really. there's a certain amount of logic to it, its just that the rules are extremely literal. for example, monks can use their dexterity instead of strength on attack and damage rolls with their fists and certain weapons. this is the exact same effect as the finesse property of a weapon, but it does not say it's the finesse property. as a result, a rogue cant sneak attack with their fists

[aadder]

It would not, since an attack with Flame Blade is a melee spell attack, not a melee weapon attack
You could always ask your DM for rule of cool, though. Flame blade is a weak spell, it wouldn't break anything to allow the interaction to work.

Yeah honestly i was doing some math and for what i was looking at (Spore Druid + War Cleric) it looks like even IF Flame Blade got the D6 it would be doing 4D6 for a level 2 concentration, whereas Shillelagh + Symbiotic Entity + Divine Favor is doing D8 + D6 + D4 + modifier for a level 1 concentration, so basically the same damage for a smaller spell slot, with the disadvantage that it doesn't do fire damage.

[JackPhoenix]

Yeah honestly i was doing some math and for what i was looking at (Spore Druid + War Cleric) it looks like even IF Flame Blade got the D6 it would be doing 4D6 for a level 2 concentration, whereas Shillelagh + Symbiotic Entity + Divine Favor is doing D8 + D6 + D4 + modifier for a level 1 concentration, so basically the same damage for a smaller spell slot, with the disadvantage that it doesn't do fire damage.

NOT doing fire damage is an advantage, not disadvantage. Lot of things resist fire damage, almost nothing has defenses against magical bludgeoning damage. There are only few situations where fire damage is superior... things with regeneration and a bunch of monsters, mostly mummies or walking trees vulnerable to fire.