OOTS #1236 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

SlashDash

2021-06-14, 08:44 AM

First seems risky, but which magic would allow for stealing an item in possession in this manner - not mage hand I don't think.

Anyway nice strip.
Telekinesis allows you to do that if the opponent fails a will save.
It's pretty much established that Roy, Durkon and V are the only ones in the party with a high will save.
So Elan just likely failed.

Why does Serini want to avoid a fight between Team Evil and the OOTS?
The best explanation I see is that if Team Evil defeats the OOTS, they will know what they were doing wrong.
No, if the order loses to Xykon, the gods destroy the entire universe. Period.
Loki didn't say they won't destroy the world, he said let's the give the mortals one more chance and if it comes down to it, they can destroy the world in 10 minutes before the Snarl escapes.

Serini told the paladins that they it's better off to let Xykon take over the gate than destroy the gate and risk the world being unmade. If she doesn't trust O-Chul for this - why the heck would she trust the party? They destroyed Dorukon's gate by accident and Girard's gate on purpose.

Judging from the conversation between the invisible entities when the paladins were kidnapped, it's almost as if she knows that the end result of what she's doing will likely result in the end of the world, but she *wants* that for some reason? I'm at a loss to explain why that would be, though.
She never said she wanted that. It's just that she knows it's coming.

Basically there are 3 options as far as she is concerned:
1) The last gate is destroyed. Snarl destroys the universe
2) The gods take actions to prevent that - this world is destroyed.
3) Xykon takes over the gate and uses it to rule the world but doesn't destroy it. He doesn't put the gods in danger so they do nothing. It's a very cruel time but better off than #1 and #2

Therefore, she's assuming she's likely to be killed one way or the other but as she told the paladins at least option #3 means a lot of people won't die.

Of course there's option #4 which is what will happen: Party defeats Xykon and Redcloak is convinced to get the Dark One to seal the gates permanently. But Serini doesn't consider option. She neither knows what Durkon does nor does she have much faith in the party that is responsible for the loss of 3 gates already.

Fyraltari

2021-06-14, 08:44 AM

Woah, Serini really figured Elan out, didn't she?

That doesn't work out, because V also wandered off if Girard's Pyramid, so that logic would have it be 60/40.

Its not that, it's the odds that they went off due to being enchanted, which relates exactly to what Durkon had just said.
I mean, Belkar didn't wander off in the Pyramid, he got forcefully dragged by a summonned monster.

Judging from the conversation between the invisible entities when the paladins were kidnapped, it's almost as if she knows that the end result of what she's doing will likely result in the end of the world, but she *wants* that for some reason? I'm at a loss to explain why that would be, though.
I don't think it's that she wants it, it's that she recognizes that things are coming to a head and she needs to intervene, but that the situation even got that bad means their chances of survival are pretty slim.

Excuse me, what? This is not the Snarl, the swirls are yellow, not purple, and there should be nobody in this tunnel, so what?
It's Serini.
Edit: and most likely "Orange voice" and whoever else she might have under her command.

jidasfire

2021-06-14, 08:50 AM

Good to see Serini finally making her move, though I think the spell being cast here is not actually her doing. The magic aura suggests that it's likely her orange-voiced companion, whom we can probably now guess is a caster of some kind.

bengator

2021-06-14, 08:50 AM

EmperorSarda

2021-06-14, 08:54 AM

As I don’t play a lot of D and D, can someone please explain how a rogue uses suggestion or otherwise hypnotized Elan? I thought a spell was needed. Did I miss a magic item Sirini had? Or is this possibly the other invisible being we saw at the end of the last book?

Last we saw, Serini has a bunch of magic items with her. She also has henchmen.

Peelee

2021-06-14, 09:01 AM

Judging from the conversation between the invisible entities when the paladins were kidnapped, it's almost as if she knows that the end result of what she's doing will likely result in the end of the world, but she *wants* that for some reason? I'm at a loss to explain why that would be, though.

I've heard this from a lot of people but never understood it. It always sounded to me like resigned pessimism.

Windscion

2021-06-14, 09:15 AM

As I don’t play a lot of D and D, can someone please explain how a rogue uses suggestion or otherwise hypnotized Elan? I thought a spell was needed. Did I miss a magic item Sirini had? Or is this possibly the other invisible being we saw at the end of the last book?

Rogues have use magic device as a class skill. And any high level character has plenty of money for magic items, especially lower level ones.

Metastachydium

2021-06-14, 09:22 AM

Damn. That was one of the nicest things Belkar's ever said in the comic!

Psyren

2021-06-14, 09:28 AM

Welp, at least we're getting some action now.

Ain't that the truth.

As I don’t play a lot of D and D, can someone please explain how a rogue uses suggestion or otherwise hypnotized Elan? I thought a spell was needed. Did I miss a magic item Sirini had? Or is this possibly the other invisible being we saw at the end of the last book?

You're assuming this is Serini. Judging by the aura I'm more inclined to believe this is her orange-voiced lackey, who we already know can turn invisible too.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there Elan. Clearly you are not aware of Lindsey Stirling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvipPYFebWc).

To be fair, you need some Perform (Dance) in there too, which an animated lute is similarly ill-equipped for :smalltongue:

Debatra

2021-06-14, 09:42 AM

You're assuming this is Serini. Judging by the aura I'm more inclined to believe this is her orange-voiced lackey, who we already know can turn invisible too.

Magic items (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html) have been shown (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html) to have their own auras, independent from who's using them.

That said though, since both the auras around the lute and Elan's head were the same color, I think it's safe to say this is orange-speech-balloon. That, or maybe OSB crafted some of the items Serini is using.

(For whatever it's worth, her wand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html) of what I presume to be Teleport, or maybe even just Dimension Door, had a yellow aura.

Metastachydium

2021-06-14, 09:43 AM

You're assuming this is Serini. Judging by the aura I'm more inclined to believe this is her orange-voiced lackey, who we already know can turn invisible too.

To be fair, we don't know that. I've always assumed that Serini just tapped 'em with a wand of Invisibility (it didn't even have to be Greater Invisibility!) which is trivially easy to do as a very-very sub-epic UMD-user. (Also, when we last saw Serini, she was carrying a wand with a yellow casting aura (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html); it's not like her magic items are colour -coded for our convenience.)

Athas

2021-06-14, 09:49 AM

First of all I'm laughing at all the prediction threads. A flying lute I doubt was in anyones predictions.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there Elan. Clearly you are not aware of Lindsey Stirling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvipPYFebWc).

I know I hadn't heard of her. Also what did I just watch?

Damn. That was one of the nicest things Belkar's ever said in the comic!
Love Belkar's growth.

EmperorSarda

2021-06-14, 09:53 AM

I know I hadn't heard of her. Also what did I just watch?

Your next step in witnessing great (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLPH9d-jsI) music (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQrIbBqV2Ew).

SlashDash

2021-06-14, 09:56 AM

One thing about the strip, I love the party going after Elan. I kind of wish since we're going down memory lane that Roy would also mention that part about him abandoning Elan in the forest with the whole Sam thing.

It's obviously not a "plot hole" or anything, but would have been nice to see Roy acknowledging his own growth after his talk with the Archon about it.

Athas

2021-06-14, 10:01 AM

Your next step in witnessing great (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLPH9d-jsI) music (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQrIbBqV2Ew).

This is the instrumental music I listen to most often. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T12ygsp9Mvg

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 10:03 AM

Yeah, Serini's going to wipe the floor with the Order. The IFCC using one of their chances might prevent V from being knocked out, but if she realizes what's causing it I'd put good money of her just killing V as soon as it wears off.

Well, at least my prediction of Roy screaming in frustration as he sees Team Evil exiting the dungeon through the portal because now their best chance for beating Team Evil's gone for good all because Serini was too scared to fight against Xykon is going to be wrong.

And before somebody complains about me describing her like that, I don't see a better explanation. Maybe worded a bit differently, but ultimately she'd rather cross her fingers and hope a bunch of PCs capable of taking on Xykon and the Snarl miraculously pop up rather than so much as give the Order a chance despite them going out of their way to *not* have the Gate blown up here now.

RMS Oceanic

2021-06-14, 10:09 AM

And before somebody complains about me describing her like that, I don't see a better explanation. Maybe worded a bit differently, but ultimately she'd rather cross her fingers and hope a bunch of PCs capable of taking on Xykon and the Snarl miraculously pop up rather than so much as give the Order a chance despite them going out of their way to *not* have the Gate blown up here now.

Depending on how thorough her recon has been, she may be aware that two of the order have destroyed gates in the past, and by her standards with O-Chul words will not change her belief they might do it again. And until we're at that crisis point, where the only two options are Xykon wins or the gate is smashed, you won't see her mind changed on that front.

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-14, 10:11 AM

Heh, didn't see that one coming, but in retrospect it makes sense that Serini targets the mental midget and does something both sneaky and clever.

Excuse me, what? This is not the Snarl, the swirls are yellow, not purple, and there should be nobody in this tunnel, so what? Serini designed and built this whole gate defense scheme. She knows it inside and out. She know how to get in and how to get out.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there Elan. Clearly you are not aware of Lindsey Stirling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvipPYFebWc). Or Stevie Wonder - on some of his early albums he did the vocals and all (or most of) the instrumentals (recorded multiple tracks which were then mixed). :smallcool: (IIRC, Higher Ground was one of the hits where he did that, but my trivia memory may be faulty)

V has been trying to reach Serini via Sending for about a year now. She's also aware of the other gates failing.

She probably has been scrying on them for some time. Very likely.

No, if the order loses to Xykon, the gods destroy the entire universe. Period.
Loki didn't say they won't destroy the world, he said let's the give the mortals one more chance and if it comes down to it, they can destroy the world in 10 minutes before the Snarl escapes.

Basically there are 3 options as far as she is concerned:
1) The last gate is destroyed. Snarl destroys the universe
2) The gods take actions to prevent that - this world is destroyed.
3) Xykon takes over the gate and uses it to rule the world but doesn't destroy it. He doesn't put the gods in danger so they do nothing. It's a very cruel time but better off than #1 and #2

Therefore, she's assuming she's likely to be killed one way or the other but as she told the paladins at least option #3 means a lot of people won't die.

Of course there's option #4 which is what will happen: Party defeats Xykon and Redcloak is convinced to get the Dark One to seal the gates permanently. But Serini doesn't consider option. She neither knows what Durkon does nor does she have much faith in the party that is responsible for the loss of 3 gates already. Thanks for that summary. :smallsmile: Bookmarking that post.

Jaxzan Proditor

2021-06-14, 10:12 AM

I’m glad that we ended the last strip with Elan’s thoughts because seeing his reactions here is priceless. And it’ll be interesting to have what looks to be our first real fight scene since the end of last book.

Aedilred

2021-06-14, 10:17 AM

The Order is comprised of:

Roy, Haley, Elan, V, Durkon, and Belkar; plus
Minrah, Mr. Scruffy, Bloodfeast, and Blackwing round things out.

10 beings.

Durkon and Minrah went off on their own to talk to Redcloak; Belkar wandered off in the pyramid to do his own thing, and again at the Godsmoot.

So that's 70-30.

At least that's my take on it.
My assumption was that it was a straight-up joke with the proportions determined at random, rather than a calculation done in his head: i.e. the random wandering off no longer constitutes a majority of such events but it's still a lot higher than it should be.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 10:17 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with you there Elan. Clearly you are not aware of Lindsey Stirling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvipPYFebWc).

Ah, a fellow man of culture! How'd you come across her?

Depending on how thorough her recon has been, she may be aware that two of the order have destroyed gates in the past, and by her standards with O-Chul words will not change her belief they might do it again. And until we're at that crisis point, where the only two options are Xykon wins or the gate is smashed, you won't see her mind changed on that front.

Yeah, but I'm guessing either she's delusional or she was like pre-Utterly Dwarfed Belkar and skipped all the dialogue, because I have no idea how she assumes a bunch of adventurers capable of fighting the Snarl, which killed two gods in one round of combat even with how strong it is against them, are going to spontaneously manifest when Xykon already has control of the entire multiverse. Not to mention that Shojo mentioned that the Scribblers feared the gods would likely unmake the world anyways so that's a pretty big blow against her point too.

Like seriously, Lien basically said they're not going to destroy the Gate and Serini basically said "Whatever, I'm going to mindwipe you all anyways!" Jeez!

Fish

2021-06-14, 10:18 AM

The real question is what the band is going to be called?
• Lute Zeppelin
• Deathcab for Lutey
• Strings of Elan
• Lutey and the Blowfish

RMS Oceanic

2021-06-14, 10:21 AM

Yeah, but I'm guessing either she's delusional or she was like pre-Utterly Dwarfed Belkar and skipped all the dialogue, because I have no idea how she assumes a bunch of adventurers capable of fighting the Snarl, which killed two gods in one round of combat even with how strong it is against them, are going to spontaneously manifest when Xykon already has control of the entire multiverse. Not to mention that Shojo mentioned that the Scribblers feared the gods would likely unmake the world anyways so that's a pretty big blow against her point too.

Like seriously, Lien basically said they're not going to destroy the Gate and Serini basically said "Whatever, I'm going to mindwipe you all anyways!" Jeez!

Words mean nothing to her at this point, only actions. Their past actions condemn them in her eyes. And the fact the other gates are lost means she's basically operating on the base assumption "they can't beat Xykon". She'd probably like that, a little vengence if nothing else, but she's resigned to him defeating all challengers and is making sure they don't blow up the planet in the process. We suspect she's wrong, and we're confident she doesn't know the stakes of his victory, but from those base assumptions she's acting sensibly.

elros

2021-06-14, 10:22 AM

That doesn't work out, because V also wandered off if Girard's Pyramid, so that logic would have it be 60/40.

Its not that, it's the odds that they went off due to being enchanted, which relates exactly to what Durkon had just said.
I am also struggling to understand the 70/30 split, and why Roy is "feeling pretty great" about it. Any other explanations?

Also, I clearly do not think like a rogue, because "stealing the lute and using suggestion on Elan to run off" never entered my mind. And I love that Serini used "making bad creative choices" to get Elan to follow the lute- she definitely understands Bards!

MReav

2021-06-14, 10:26 AM

I thought "Wait... is Elan being possessed by Banjo?"

Then the Serini comments came in and I'm like "Oh... that makes so much more sense and isn't a Deus Ex Machina."

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 10:31 AM

Words mean nothing to her at this point, only actions. Their past actions condemn them in her eyes. And the fact the other gates are lost means she's basically operating on the base assumption "they can't beat Xykon". She'd probably like that, a little vengence if nothing else, but she's resigned to him defeating all challengers and is making sure they don't blow up the planet in the process. We suspect she's wrong, and we're confident she doesn't know the stakes of his victory, but from those base assumptions she's acting sensibly.

I mean if her point was "either the gods unmake the world or the Snarl eats everyone", or if the Snarl was actually just a generic doomsday device rather than being stronger than the entire multiverse, I'd actually think it was valid.

The problem is that unless Soon or Shojo lied about something, the Scribblers knew what the Snarl could do and what the gods might. I'm going with "skipped the dialogue" theory for now, but I think she's still being a crotchety old woman who won't listen to sense.

Lemarc

2021-06-14, 10:33 AM

I am also struggling to understand the 70/30 split, and why Roy is "feeling pretty great" about it. Any other explanations?

It's just betting odds. It's a figure of speech. He means it's probable (but not too probable) that whenever a PC wanders off nowadays it's because they've been enchanted and not just because they're a lousy team member, which is a good thing because they've had trouble with the latter in the past. I'm very confident there's not anything more to read into it.

dancrilis

2021-06-14, 10:35 AM

I am also struggling to understand the 70/30 split, and why Roy is "feeling pretty great" about it. Any other explanations?

I think it is fairly standard - if you asked Roy back in the day the odds of one of the party messing up a plan due to their own nonsense or due to enemy action he would have given it 70% (to take a figure at random) their own nonsense, now he is down to 30% on that and he is happy with the difference.

Mike Havran

2021-06-14, 10:37 AM

Ahh, and so it begins :smallamused:

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-14, 10:42 AM

Elan’s thoughts Isn't that an oxymoron? (Cue reference to Belkar's observation on Elan, INT, and dump stats)

• Lutey and the Blowfish One vote for this one.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 10:47 AM

Isn't that an oxymoron? (Cue reference to Belkar's observation on Elan, INT, and dump stats)

I mean Elan has been having lots of character development.

One vote for this one.

I only got the zeppelin reference, what are the others?

One Skunk Todd

2021-06-14, 10:50 AM

The real question is what the band is going to be called?
• Lute Zeppelin
• Deathcab for Lutey
• Strings of Elan
• Lutey and the Blowfish

He'll just go solo and call himself Lute-acris.

Yendor

2021-06-14, 10:51 AM

Gonna throw out the possibility that this mysterious orange figure is not acting on Serini's orders. The Order are due to gain an important ally, per the Giant's comments in the last book, and Serini's certainly not in that mood. Maybe this person believes in the Order here.

Peelee

2021-06-14, 10:52 AM

I mean if her point was "either the gods unmake the world or the Snarl eats everyone", or if the Snarl was actually just a generic doomsday device rather than being stronger than the entire multiverse, I'd actually think it was valid.

The problem is that unless Soon or Shojo lied about something, the Scribblers knew what the Snarl could do and what the gods might. I'm going with "skipped the dialogue" theory for now, but I think she's still being a crotchety old woman who won't listen to sense.

Crotchety old woman? Definitely. Won't listen to sense? Eh, not so much. She simply doesn't believe they won't blow the Gate, and has a pretty big data point to support that belief. She's wrong, but characters are allowed to be wrong. If she let the paladins talk enough (or let's the Order talk enough), I do think she'd be persuaded. She doesn't seem inclined to let them, though, since she's starting off on the "you destroyed your Gate, all other Gates have fallen pretty quickly, and now you're here. HMMMM I WONDER WHY" perspective.

EmperorSarda

2021-06-14, 10:56 AM

This is the instrumental music I listen to most often. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T12ygsp9Mvg

Thank you for sharing!

Ah, a fellow man of culture! How'd you come across her?

It's been so long I don't remember. I did get to be part of the crowd when she was recording her Phantom of the Opera video.

Yeah, but I'm guessing either she's delusional or she was like pre-Utterly Dwarfed Belkar and skipped all the dialogue

Assuming that she knows that the Order destroyed Girard's Gate to prevent it from falling into Xykon's hands; I think she is operating on giving no credibility to the Paladins and OotS. The Paladins may say now that it is not an option, but if their oaths required it, she thinks they still might do it.

She doesn't believe that they can take out Xykon. So the only way to stop him to destroy the gate. Destroying the gate will cause the gods to destroy the world. She doesn't want that.

So she bets on some people being miserable during Xykons rule and that it will end sooner or later.

Nor does Xykon even think he is a threat to the multiverse. He just wants to rule the world.

A_S

2021-06-14, 10:58 AM

Minrah looks translucent in the last panel. Is that just weird lighting, or is something going on there?

dancrilis

2021-06-14, 10:59 AM

She simply doesn't believe they won't blow the Gate, and has a pretty big data point to support that belief. She's wrong

Is she?

If it comes down to
a) the snarl destroys the world
b) the gods destroy the world
c) Roy pisses Xykon off enough that if Xykon gets the gate under control (somehow) and the gods concede to his demands one of his demands will be to feed Roy's family in the afterlife through one of the rifts

... well I could see Roy taking number 'c' off the table to keep his mother and brother safe.

Serini has no idea about what the Order would do under enough pressure nor to we (and that is just Roy, other members might have there own 'Xykon is not an option' buttons that might be pushed).

CountDVB

2021-06-14, 11:00 AM

Will be interesting to see who’s doing this though we all have our guesses. In Elan’s defense, being luteless is concerning since he needs that for his bardsong, correct?

Flame of Anor

2021-06-14, 11:00 AM

Yeah, Serini's going to wipe the floor with the Order. The IFCC using one of their chances might prevent V from being knocked out, but if she realizes what's causing it I'd put good money of her just killing V as soon as it wears off.

I disagree. Having Serini easily defeat the Order would be narratively uninteresting right after having her easily defeat the paladins. Something else is going to happen. Maybe the Order manages to change her mind. Maybe they're in the middle of fighting and then Xykon shows up and they join forces against him.

I only got the zeppelin reference, what are the others?

Death Cab for Cutie, Hootie and the Blowfish. Not sure about the last one.

In Elan’s defense, being luteless is concerning since he needs that for his bardsong, correct?

Depends on where he's put his Perform skill ranks.

bunsen_h

2021-06-14, 11:00 AM

The stepwise shading of the tunnel, receding into the distance, looks odd to me. It gives the impression of transitioning through several translucent barriers or windows rather than just getting darker or farther.

Hm. How did Serini know to target Elan's crappy will save? Wizards and Bards have good will save progression, as do clerics. So the front-line fighters should be the clear targets. Sounds like Serini knows more about the order than I thought.

If she knows that Elan pushed the destruct button at Dorukan's dungeon just on a whim, that would point to low WIS.

Mariele

2021-06-14, 11:03 AM

The Lute Formerly Known As Lutey.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 11:03 AM

It's been so long I don't remember. I did get to be part of the crowd when she was recording her Phantom of the Opera video.

Neat! Would it be rude to ask where you are if you show up in the vid?

Assuming that she knows that the Order destroyed Girard's Gate to prevent it from falling into Xykon's hands; I think she is operating on giving no credibility to the Paladins and OotS. The Paladins may say now that it is not an option, but if their oaths required it, she thinks they still might do it.

She doesn't believe that they can take out Xykon. So the only way to stop him to destroy the gate. Destroying the gate will cause the gods to destroy the world. She doesn't want that.

So she bets on some people being miserable during Xykons rule and that it will end sooner or later.

Nor does Xykon even think he is a threat to the multiverse. He just wants to rule the world.

Crotchety old woman? Definitely. Won't listen to sense? Eh, not so much. She simply doesn't believe they won't blow the Gate, and has a pretty big data point to support that belief. She's wrong, but characters are allowed to be wrong. If she let the paladins talk enough (or let's the Order talk enough), I do think she'd be persuaded. She doesn't seem inclined to let them, though, since she's starting off on the "you destroyed your Gate, all other Gates have fallen pretty quickly, and now you're here. HMMMM I WONDER WHY" perspective.

Okay, I get "doesn't trust the Order with two straws and a paper napkin, let alone the Gates" angle, but does she have any idea what Team Evil getting to the Gate would entail? This world being unmade is one of the better outcomes, really. And the thing is, she really should "know" that Team Evil getting the Gate means a) Xykon gets his phlanges on the Snarl and rules the multiverse because not even the gods can go against him, or II. the gods unmake the world so everyone dies anyways. THAT is my issue with her, and yes I know [1] is invalid but that's the assumption she's working on.

Peelee

2021-06-14, 11:04 AM

Is she?

Yes.

We know the Order and the Paladins will not destroy the last Gate. They know that will trigger the world's destruction.

Serini does not believe them. She has good reason - after all, the Sapphire Guard, whose sole job was to guard the sapphire, decided to destroy it. So far as she knows, even if they were completely earnest about not wanting or intending to destroy the Gate, she doesn't want to risk a new thing cropping up that could change their minds. After all, they already changed their minds on their own Gate, or it would still be standing.

But yes. They will not destroy the last Gate. She is, therefor, wrong.

Okay, I get "doesn't trust the Order with two straws and a paper napkin, let alone the Gates" angle, but does she have any idea what Team Evil getting to the Gate would entail?

Almost certainly not. Which is why I think she could be convinced if she let them talk. But she's not.

bunsen_h

2021-06-14, 11:04 AM

I wonder if Minrah's "Is anyone else seeing this?" is referring to something other than the levitating lute.

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-14, 11:07 AM

I mean Elan has been having lots of character development. A better bard, sure, but not any smarter than he started.

I only got the zeppelin reference, what are the others? The one I voted for was the riff on Hootie and the Blowfish. :smallcool:

We know the Order and the Paladins will not destroy the last Gate. They know that will trigger the world's destruction.

Serini does not believe them The problem for the first half of this book, in a nutshell, I'll suggest, until the IFCC chooses to play their next card. Once they do that, that then becomes the problem to solve for the rest of the book as it will somehow be related to the Order finally taking Xykon down.

Something about how in BRitF it was a ways into the book before the Order stumbled over the main plot ... (thinking back to an "aha" moment by Haley)

Wannes

2021-06-14, 11:08 AM

The Lute Formerly Known As Lutey.

I think that The Instrument Formerly Known As Lutey works better, as TIFKAL is easier to pronounce than TLFKAL.

Petrocorus

2021-06-14, 11:09 AM

I myself look forward to Roy trying to talk Serini into changing her mind.

SlashDash

2021-06-14, 11:15 AM

Yeah, Serini's going to wipe the floor with the Order. The IFCC using one of their chances might prevent V from being knocked out, but if she realizes what's causing it I'd put good money of her just killing V as soon as it wears off.
Serini has no intention of killing the PCs. She already said what she's going to do - force them to drink the amnesia potion to remove them from the game.

If anything, I can see it going the other way around. Serini succeeds, but the IFCC calls V and restore their memory since they don't want to eliminate the party, they want the conflict to continue and V will return everyone else's memories somehow.

Okay, I get "doesn't trust the Order with two straws and a paper napkin, let alone the Gates" angle, but does she have any idea what Team Evil getting to the Gate would entail?
Her previous talk with the paladins says that in fact she does.
As she described it, Xykon is evil but he wants to rule the world and not destroy it.
She even says she's thinking on the "let thousands die to save millions" mentality.

If the gods unmake the world, everyone dies. Nobody survives. Sure, there might be new people, but she cares about people who exist now and not people who might happen in the future.

I'll also slightly remind you the point of last book - If the gods unmake the world, Hel gets to torture millions of dwarves forever and become the new matriarch in the new world.
Somehow I don't think that's going to be the happy ending the Oracle promised Elan.

dancrilis

2021-06-14, 11:16 AM

Yes.

We know the Order and the Paladins will not destroy the last Gate. They know that will trigger the world's destruction.

Serini does not believe them. She has good reason - after all, the Sapphire Guard, whose sole job was to guard the sapphire, decided to destroy it. So far as she knows, even if they were completely earnest about not wanting or intending to destroy the Gate, she doesn't want to risk a new thing cropping up that could change their minds. After all, they already changed their minds on their own Gate, or it would still be standing.

But yes. They will not destroy the last Gate. She is, therefor, wrong.

They have said they won't destroy the Gate but something could crop up to change their minds (as you indicated she doesn't want to risk).

Roy is on record saying that destroying Dorukan's gate was the correct decision even knowing that it was one of the pillars of reality, he destroyed Girard's gate solely to avoid a fight.

I see no reason to think that if he choices were 'Xykon wins' or 'everyone loses' he wouldn't choose the second option if he thought the first option was really 'everyone loses horribly except for Xykon', unless you can point out a panel where he makes it clear he would let Xykon win if it came down to it?

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-14, 11:16 AM

If anything, I can see it going the other way around. Serini succeeds, but the IFCC calls V and restore their memory since they don't want to eliminate the party, they want the conflict to continue and V will return everyone else's memories somehow.
Hmm, as I ponder on this I like how that triggers another V-Be-Gone situation and advances the plot. +1. :smallsmile:

Ekim One-Eye

2021-06-14, 11:19 AM

Gotta admit, I feel a little lost on Serini's position and motives, esp. in light of the last comment in strip 1189.

Peelee

2021-06-14, 11:19 AM

They have said they won't destroy the Gate but something could crop up to change their minds (as you indicated she doesn't want to risk).

We also have audience knowledge that the story will have a happy ending, and as pointed out, the entire Dwarven race getting condemned to Hel is unlikely to fulfill that. So yes, she is wrong. She has good reason to be wrong, but that does not make her less wrong.

Night Knight

2021-06-14, 11:26 AM

Elan would still have had a kazoo to use as an instrument if he hadn't been charmed into running off, yes?

dancrilis

2021-06-14, 11:28 AM

We also have audience knowledge that the story will have a happy ending, and as pointed out, the entire Dwarven race getting condemned to Hel is unlikely to fulfill that. So yes, she is wrong. She has good reason to be wrong, but that does not make her less wrong.

A happy ending for Elan doesn't mean a happy ending for everyone else.

Roy knows that it would take the gods ~15 minutes after they agree to actually destroy the world and he knows they are currently waiting on the dwarves before they can move on to agree to do that - so after the gate is destroyed he might still have time to fix things, Redcloak might be in a position to deal etc depending on how the story goes.

I personally find it unlikely that Roy (or a member of the order will destroy the gate - although fiend possessing shenanigans might result in such), but if The Giant has it as part of the story fair enough.

bunsen_h

2021-06-14, 11:31 AM

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 11:33 AM

Serini has no intention of killing the PCs. She already said what she's going to do - force them to drink the amnesia potion to remove them from the game.

If anything, I can see it going the other way around. Serini succeeds, but the IFCC calls V and restore their memory since they don't want to eliminate the party, they want the conflict to continue and V will return everyone else's memories somehow.

Her previous talk with the paladins says that in fact she does.
As she described it, Xykon is evil but he wants to rule the world and not destroy it.
She even says she's thinking on the "let thousands die to save millions" mentality.

If the gods unmake the world, everyone dies. Nobody survives. Sure, there might be new people, but she cares about people who exist now and not people who might happen in the future.

I'll also slightly remind you the point of last book - If the gods unmake the world, Hel gets to torture millions of dwarves forever and become the new matriarch in the new world.
Somehow I don't think that's going to be the happy ending the Oracle promised Elan.

If hypothetically Xykon got his hands on the Snarl, nobody's going to be able to go against him, not even the gods. Forever. And eventually he might get so bored he destroys it all himself(which Xykon himself said).

Yirggzmb

2021-06-14, 11:34 AM

Her previous talk with the paladins says that in fact she does.
As she described it, Xykon is evil but he wants to rule the world and not destroy it.

This is true. However, it's likely she's not aware of Redcloak's plan, which is "turn control of the gate over to my god who wants to use it as a threat to get people to do what I want". The gods are scared enough of this that they will likely opt to pull the plug if Xykon and Redcloak gain control of the gate.

We know this, and the Order knows this, but Sereni likely doesn't and the paladins definitely don't yet. Which the Order informing her of this fact is probably the most likely thing that will change her mind.

Peelee

2021-06-14, 11:37 AM

Elan would still have had a kazoo to use as an instrument if he hadn't been charmed into running off, yes?
Bards don't strictly need an instrument. He just needs to fulfill the verbal component, which can be accomplished by singing or chanting.

A happy ending for Elan doesn't mean a happy ending for everyone else.

We also have knowledge of what the author meant to convey when he put that in, which to me still entails that there will be no condemnation of an entire race (not to mention mass genocide if all other people). So, still wrong.

Doug Lampert

2021-06-14, 11:44 AM

Words mean nothing to her at this point, only actions. Their past actions condemn them in her eyes. And the fact the other gates are lost means she's basically operating on the base assumption "they can't beat Xykon". She'd probably like that, a little vengence if nothing else, but she's resigned to him defeating all challengers and is making sure they don't blow up the planet in the process. We suspect she's wrong, and we're confident she doesn't know the stakes of his victory, but from those base assumptions she's acting sensibly.

Also, if the Order leaps out of concealment to attack X, then when they lose, which is the overwhelming favorite for outcomes based on the levels and power, they give X the knowledge of how the gate is hidden.

chy03001

2021-06-14, 11:50 AM

This is some Elan gold right here :-D

TuringTest

2021-06-14, 11:56 AM

I was wondering how they were going to move on from the situation they were in. I certainly didn't expect this, though :elan:

I'm also glad Serini has made her move and we get some action. :smalltongue:

It's a bit disappointing though that all the strips dedicated to explain how the portal trap works and setting it as the perfect ambush, with the order waiting for it to go off, seem to have been wasted without an obvious pay off.

The Order has been in the cave since December, and one has to wonder what all these intermediate strips are good for, if they're finally rushing into the cave anyway. It's very little in-time comic time, and I'm sure the compilation book will read with good rhythm; but waiting for it to refresh online is paaaainful, at least when some build-up doesn't lead anywhere, not directly :smalleek:

gatemansgc

2021-06-14, 11:56 AM

Yendor

2021-06-14, 12:09 PM

Psyren

2021-06-14, 12:10 PM

Magic items (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html) have been shown (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html) to have their own auras, independent from who's using them.

To be fair, we don't know that.

I never said we did know that - pretty sure my exact words were "I'm inclined to believe."

It's a bit disappointing though that all the strips dedicated to explain how the portal trap works and setting it as the perfect ambush, with the order waiting for it to go off, seem to have been wasted without an obvious pay off.

The Portal Trap's purpose was to make the Order think they had an advantage, so they would stand around in one place Readying over and over to then be caught by Serini, instead of doing literally anything else with that prep time. So even if Serini's actions ruined their chances of getting the drop on Team Evil, I wouldn't agree that the trap did nothing.

EmperorSarda

2021-06-14, 12:12 PM

Neat! Would it be rude to ask where you are if you show up in the vid?
I'm the guy at 2:30 with the glasses and top hat. I don't think I'm visible at other parts of the video.

but does she have any idea what Team Evil getting to the Gate would entail?

No. Because if she did she'd know that Redcloak is the true threat, not Xykon. As far as Xykon knows, the gate ritual only allows him to control this snarl on this plane of existence. We have no reason to assume Serini believes any different.

So in her mind it is risk the world being destroyed or let Xykon rule the world until someone figures out how to knock him out.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 12:13 PM

The main problem with Serini's line of thought is that Xykon is never going to get control of the Snarl, because that's not what the Ritual does. It gives control to the Dark One. And if Thor's gambit fails and they can't get Redcloak to cooperate, the gods will most likely yank the plug on the world before the Ritual can be completed.

Other than that, the fact the Order and Sapphire Guard have failed to stop Xykon thus far and destroyed three Gates in the process is plenty of reason for Serini not to trust them as far as she could throw them.

That's not even my problem with her. She doesn't know about TDO.

My problem is that unless she skipped all the lore parts, she has to know the Snarl is capable of slaughtering gods effortlessly, and that the gods are willing to pull the plug on the world rather than risk that even without that knowledge.

Fish

2021-06-14, 12:22 PM

I only got the zeppelin reference, what are the others?
Deathcab for Cutie
Kings of Leon
Hootie and the Blowfish

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 12:25 PM

I'm the guy at 2:30 with the glasses and top hat. I don't think I'm visible at other parts of the video.

Neat, I'm going to go check that now.

No. Because if she did she'd know that Redcloak is the true threat, not Xykon. As far as Xykon knows, the gate ritual only allows him to control this snarl on this plane of existence. We have no reason to assume Serini believes any different.

So in her mind it is risk the world being destroyed or let Xykon rule the world until someone figures out how to knock him out.

I meant, "does she know what the Snarl hypothetically falling into his hands even mean". Because there's "generic doomsday device" and there's "literally able to destroy the entire multiverse effortlessly".

I'm betting that she didn't listen to the casters when they talked about it. Poor communication probably was a part in their falling-out after all.

CountDVB

2021-06-14, 12:29 PM

They have said they won't destroy the Gate but something could crop up to change their minds (as you indicated she doesn't want to risk).

Roy is on record saying that destroying Dorukan's gate was the correct decision even knowing that it was one of the pillars of reality, he destroyed Girard's gate solely to avoid a fight.

I see no reason to think that if he choices were 'Xykon wins' or 'everyone loses' he wouldn't choose the second option if he thought the first option was really 'everyone loses horribly except for Xykon', unless you can point out a panel where he makes it clear he would let Xykon win if it came down to it?

I mean, Dorukan put a self-destruct rune on his Gate so there probably was a situation where he considered its destruction to be necessary, especially given all the magical protections he put on there. And we know the Order of the Scribble fought against people looking to try and harness the power of the Gates.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 12:31 PM

I mean, Dorukan put a self-destruct rune on his Gate so there probably was a situation where he considered its destruction to be necessary, especially given all the magical protections he put on there. And we know the Order of the Scribble fought against people looking to try and harness the power of the Gates.

Another reason I entertain the "Serini didn't listen to any of the lore parts" theory, though to be fair her Gate is the last.

hroþila

2021-06-14, 12:36 PM

Serini could be perfectly well versed in the lore and still disagree with Dorukan. The stance that the destruction of ANY gate is reckless regardless of how many still stand has merit.

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-14, 12:39 PM

The stance that the destruction of ANY gate is reckless regardless of how many still stand has merit. It does, and she's emotionally invested thanks to one of her adventuring comrades having sacrificed his life in the process of the snarl being contained before the gates and their defenses were completed.

Jasdoif

2021-06-14, 12:40 PM

My problem is that unless she skipped all the lore parts, she has to know the Snarl is capable of slaughtering gods effortlessly, and that the gods are willing to pull the plug on the world rather than risk that even without that knowledge.Right. In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate. She probably expects she'll have the option of destroying the Gate herself if that starts looking like an improvement, too.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 12:40 PM

It does, and she's emotionally invested thanks to one of her adventuring comrades having sacrificed his life in the process of the snarl being contained before the gates and their defenses were completed.

...Okay yeah that'd explain a lot.

I still think she's wrong even with the knowledge she probably knows, but I can still see why then.

Right. In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate. She probably expects she'll have the option of destroying the Gate herself if that starts looking like an improvement, too.

...Are you being sarcastic or not?

Psyren

2021-06-14, 12:45 PM

I'm interested in whether any of the Scribble looked inside the rift like Blackwing did, and if so, what they saw. Is the planet-in-the-planet thing new? The gods don't seem to know about it. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html) Did they? Does she?

Peelee

2021-06-14, 12:46 PM

I'm the guy at 2:30 with the glasses and top hat. I don't think I'm visible at other parts of the video.

That's pretty awesome! I got to be in a Weird Al show once, danced onstage and everything. No music video, though.

Jasdoif

2021-06-14, 12:48 PM

Right. In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate. She probably expects she'll have the option of destroying the Gate herself if that starts looking like an improvement, too....Are you being sarcastic or not?Works both ways, doesn't it? She has an unduly dismissive view of any attempt to defeat Xykon himself, which she rationally followed to its logical conclusion.

Riftwolf

2021-06-14, 12:52 PM

Swirly eyes are not for audience only. The OOTS members have likely seen them and know he got charmed or whatever.

Why does Serini want to avoid a fight between Team Evil and the OOTS?
The best explanation I see is that if Team Evil defeats the OOTS, they will know what they were doing wrong.

My guess is she doesn't care if the Order fights Xykon, whether they win or lose. What Serini cares about is that the Order don't give away the teleporter trick to Team Evil. She's perfectly happy to let Xykon et al burble around forever, but the Orders plan will inadvertently tip Xykon off about how the dungeons work.

dancrilis

2021-06-14, 12:56 PM

We also have knowledge of what the author meant to convey when he put that in, which to me still entails that there will be no condemnation of an entire race (not to mention mass genocide if all other people). So, still wrong.

But the story could go:
1. Order destroys the gate.
2. World is saved by order talking to Redcloak.
3. Happy ending all around.

And step 1 might occur to help with step 2 if the Giant so chooses, in which case she would be right.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 12:59 PM

Works both ways, doesn't it? She has an unduly dismissive view of any attempt to defeat Xykon himself, which she rationally followed to its logical conclusion.

That sounds about right, yeah.

Not sure what "In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate" means though?

Peelee

2021-06-14, 01:00 PM

But the story could go:
1. Order destroys the gate.
2. World is saved by order talking to Redcloak.
3. Happy ending all around.

And step 1 might occur to help with step 2 if the Giant so chooses, in which case she would be right.

I could also find a million dollars underneath my pillow when I get home tonight.

PontificatusRex

2021-06-14, 01:01 PM

All set up to ambush the Epic Sorcerer, only to be ambushed by the Epic Rogue...

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-14, 01:07 PM

I'm interested in whether any of the Scribble looked inside the rift like Blackwing did, and if so, what they saw. Kraagor seems to have gotten a very close look (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

That's pretty awesome! I got to be in a Weird Al show once, danced onstage and everything. No music video, though. Way too cool. :smallcool:

She's perfectly happy to let Xykon et al burble around forever, but the Order's plan will inadvertently tip Xykon off about how the dungeons work.Hence her motivation to act. I like how you fit those together.
("The Order are well meaning bumblers" is a theme since about strip 0001; yeah, she's read the back catalogue :smallsmile: )

TuringTest

2021-06-14, 01:17 PM

The Portal Trap's purpose was to make the Order think they had an advantage, so they would stand around in one place Readying over and over to then be caught by Serini, instead of doing literally anything else with that prep time. So even if Serini's actions ruined their chances of getting the drop on Team Evil, I wouldn't agree that the trap did nothing.

True, I hand't thought of that.

But still, a similar dramatic effect could have been had if the Order decided to explore the tunnel right away, and Serini ambushed them before they have any chance to find out what lies beyond.

I still have hope that the carefully crafted explanation over several strips of how the trap's workings will be a proper Checkhov's gun and it will pay out in the end; albeit in a totally unexpected way, very different from Haley's direct ambush plan (we all know that a plan that is spelled out never works as described).:smallbiggrin:

Jasdoif

2021-06-14, 01:29 PM

Not sure what "In Serini's eyes, the worst-case scenario of Xykon holding the Gate is on the same level as the best-case scenario of preventing Xykon from holding the Gate" means though?Like you said, if Xykon somehow managed to control the Snarl, the gods would destroy the world and everyone on it to mitigate the damage the Snarl could cause to them while they had the chance....Exactly like they would if Lien/O-Chul/etc. destroyed the last Gate to keep Xykon from getting his phalanges on it; which Serini believes is the only way they could stop Xykon from getting his phalanges on it.

If Xykon's unable to control the Snarl, and instead uses the threat of destroying the Gate to secure his world domination, or some other unforeseen setup where Xykon somehow benefits from the Gate without the Snarl...then it'll only last until some group comes along and actually takes Xykon down, lots of lives being saved/freed in the process; or until said group or Xykon does destroy the Gate....Exactly like Serini believes Lien/O-Chul/etc. would have to in order to stop Xykon.

Serini does not see a scenario where giving Lien/O-Chul/etc. their chance to stop Xykon could ever work out better than letting Xykon have the Gate. A tie is the best she could hope for, and the worse outcomes are too bad for her to risk.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 01:34 PM

Like you said, if Xykon somehow managed to control the Snarl, the gods would destroy the world and everyone on it to mitigate the damage the Snarl could cause to them while they had the chance....Exactly like they would if Lien/O-Chul/etc. destroyed the last Gate to keep Xykon from getting his phalanges on it; which Serini believes is the only way they could stop Xykon from getting his phalanges on it.

If Xykon's unable to control the Snarl, and instead uses the threat of destroying the Gate to secure his world domination, or some other unforeseen setup where Xykon somehow benefits from the Gate without the Snarl...then it'll only last until some group comes along and actually takes Xykon down, lots of lives being saved/freed in the process; or until said group or Xykon does destroy the Gate....Exactly like Serini believes Lien/O-Chul/etc. would have to in order to stop Xykon.

Serini does not see a scenario where giving Lien/O-Chul/etc. their chance to stop Xykon could ever work out better than letting Xykon have the Gate. A tie is the best she could hope for, and the worse outcomes are too bad for her to risk.

Hmm... does she even consider or know that the gods would destroy the world? She seems to assume that Xykon getting his phalanges on the Snarl is inevitable.

Peelee

2021-06-14, 01:46 PM

Hmm... does she even consider or know that the gods would destroy the world?

Why would she?

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 01:54 PM

Why would she?

Shojo said that the Scribblers were concerned that the gods might take matters into their own hands so... yeah, sounds a lot like they knew.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-06-14, 02:02 PM

Fyraltari

2021-06-14, 02:15 PM

Shojo said that the Scribblers were concerned that the gods might take matters into their own hands so... yeah, sounds a lot like they knew.

Shojo said the Scribblers "agreed it was best not to let things deteriorate to the point where the gods felt they had no choice but to destroy the world to rebuild the prison."

It soinds more like a theoretical concern to me. Especially if they didn't know the gods have already done it a bazillion times.

It's also possible Serini was in the minority and didn't think the gods would actually go through with it.

Edit: Hell, it's possible that "not only have they done it before, but they were voting on doing it early last week!" would be the argument that gets her to ally with the Order against Xykon.

arimareiji

2021-06-14, 02:17 PM

Shojo said that the Scribblers were concerned that the gods might take matters into their own hands so... yeah, sounds a lot like they knew.

If you mean this comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), they were concerned that if the rifts deteriorated the gods might destroy the world. That's the reason she mistakenly thinks it would be better to let Xykon get one of the gates containing a rift, than blow it up.

At least at this time, we have no reason to think she knows the gods will destroy the world to keep Redcloak from getting his hands on a gate.

tanonev

2021-06-14, 02:19 PM

So...the Order has 3 casters capable of casting Dispel Magic AND Break Enchantment, they've prepared spells knowing they're up against multiple spellcasters, they know/strongly suspect Elan's been charmed in some way, and they don't bother trying to dispel the effect...why?

Ionathus

2021-06-14, 02:20 PM

Specific things I love about this strip:

1. Elan being savvy enough to not immediately chase after his floating lute. I was legitimately concerned in the first few panels, and then Elan himself acknowledged how silly that would be!

2. The mental image of Serini (or Orange Voice) trying to lure Elan away with the floating lute: when he stops to acknowledge how dumb that would be, they sigh deeply and think to themselves "dangit, he's not as comically stupid as I was promised" and then they have to burn a spell/charge/scroll/SLA on charming him :smallbiggrin:

Generic things I love about this strip: everything else.

ninja:

So...the Order has 3 casters capable of casting Dispel Magic AND Break Enchantment, they've prepared spells knowing they're up against multiple spellcasters, they know/strongly suspect Elan's been charmed in some way, and they don't bother trying to dispel the effect...why?

I'd imagine it has something to do with Roy's comment about not standing around to get picked off one by one. Somebody's made the first move against them and is trying to get them individually: applying the force of their entire party in a blitz move could force that assailant to revise their strategy. And spending a spellslot to dispel the charm might not be worth it, if it's a low-level suggestion (which the dialogue seems to suggest) that might wear off in a minute.

And of course, Durkon is back with the group, which apparently means they have to go back to just rushing headfirst into every fight (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1117.html).

Fyraltari

2021-06-14, 02:26 PM

Mariele

2021-06-14, 02:26 PM

What we learned from Shojo (who learned from his father, who learned from Soon), is that in order to fix the rifts, the gods would need to unmake the world and start over again, and that if things deteriorated enough, they would feel that they had no choice to. So yes, I think she does know.

Edit: Dang, ninja'd twice.

Doug Lampert

2021-06-14, 02:26 PM

I'm also glad Serini has made her move and we get some action. :smalltongue:

It's a bit disappointing though that all the strips dedicated to explain how the portal trap works and setting it as the perfect ambush, with the order waiting for it to go off, seem to have been wasted without an obvious pay off.

They may still use a version of this later in the book.

If and when they're united with the Paladins and their other new ally, they can all try it when X is tired from doing six dungeons in one day or whatever.

At some point they will need to fight X, and the portal trap will still be there in a different tunnel when that day comes.

The Portal Trap's purpose was to make the Order think they had an advantage, so they would stand around in one place Readying over and over to then be caught by Serini, instead of doing literally anything else with that prep time. So even if Serini's actions ruined their chances of getting the drop on Team Evil, I wouldn't agree that the trap did nothing.

That too.

arimareiji

2021-06-14, 03:07 PM

I don't think Elan got Suggestioned since we didn't hear it, but it's absolutely plausible that he'd fail the save on it even if his Will save wasn't crappy to begin with. Telepathy, maybe?

And I like the idea even more since it suggests Serini's friend/ally Orange Voice (though it looks more brown here) is indeed a dragon after all (specifically, brass). Plus a dragon that loves to talk would be a perfect companion for someone the Scribblers knew as a chatterbox, and they have a sleep-gas* breath weapon.
* - actually a "cone of sleep", but I'm fond of my possible-mistaken memory that at one point it was sleep gas

It's almost too perfect for Serini and Orange Voice incapacitating the Sticklers without a fight, after which they wake up next to the paladins and we can finally start resolving the Serini-doesn't-know-Team-Evil-can't-get-a-gate-because-she-wasn't-at-the-Godsmoot problem. Seriously, it fits so well that it makes me suspect it must be wrong.

Edit: Formatting

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-14, 03:10 PM

Seriously, it fits so well that it makes me suspect it must be wrong. Yeah.
I just walked through the strip again, and I like the small gag in panel 6 about a solo career. :smallsmile: Missed that the first time through.

arimareiji

2021-06-14, 03:15 PM

Yeah.
I just walked through the strip again, and I like the small gag in panel 6 about a solo career. :smallsmile: Missed that the first time through.

This comic actually makes me wonder if the Giant has some minor unresolved beef with someone who left a band too soon. (^_^)°

(Susanna Hoffs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSoOFn3wQV4), looking at you (^_~) )

Edit: Or maybe he just finds it funny that other people do.

JSSheridan

2021-06-14, 03:21 PM

Thanks Giant!

Debatra

2021-06-14, 03:22 PM

For a minute there, I thought Elan's line about creative decisions was referring to the idea that it would be more dramatically-appropriate for him to recklessly run after his lute rather than advising it about its solo career.

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-14, 03:56 PM

Edit: Or maybe he just finds it funny that other people do. FWIW: My younger brother's band ran into that problem (man, that's been over 30 years ago ...) The 'one who left to start his own band' actually got married and started a family (a different kind of band, I suppose). In a way there's some humor involved. {and the leaver found out that he could not afford studio time by himself also ...}

My favorite 'more famous' version was Bill Wyman's Monkey Grip album.
(And, ahem, Stone Alone) (Wyman was the original bass player for the Rolling Stones)

Hurkyl

2021-06-14, 04:30 PM

I thought "Wait... is Elan being possessed by Banjo?"

Then the Serini comments came in and I'm like "Oh... that makes so much more sense and isn't a Deus Ex Machina."

If it makes you feel better, my first reaction was "Ack, is the comic actually going to validate my crackpot theory that Banjo is a fifth quiddity?!?!" before I figured out it's probably Serini.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-06-14, 04:41 PM

This comic actually makes me wonder if the Giant has some minor unresolved beef with someone who left a band too soon. (^_^)°

(Susanna Hoffs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSoOFn3wQV4), looking at you (^_~) )

Edit: Or maybe he just finds it funny that other people do.As someone with zero music playing experience, it seems like there is no non-dramatic way to leave a band; although that's probably because I only hear the most dramatic stories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Temptations_band_members#Timeline), dramatized stroies, or parodies of dramatized stories.

Robots

2021-06-14, 05:07 PM

Ah, a new update! And the game is afoot! (No pun about halfling feet intended, mind you.)

I knew that 1235 seemed to be lulling us into an idle state. And thus, Serini begins her scheme.

WanderingMist

2021-06-14, 06:03 PM

Roy is on record saying that destroying Dorukan's gate was the correct decision even knowing that it was one of the pillars of reality, he destroyed Girard's gate solely to avoid a fight.

No, Roy destroyed it because they had no way to keep it out of Tarquin's hands once they left the continent, and unlike Nale, Tarquin would see right through the double-bluff. Tarquin has an army. It would be suicide to try and fight him.

Deathcab for Cutie
Kings of Leon
Hootie and the Blowfish

Did you know there is a band called "Strings of Elegance" which is what I assumed Stings of Elan was?

Shining Wrath

2021-06-14, 06:14 PM

How long until Lutey becomes a deity on the order of Banjo, and provides a fifth quiddity?

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-14, 06:35 PM

How long until Lutey becomes a deity on the order of Banjo, and provides a fifth quiddity? Infinity, for this 'verse. For another verse, who knows? :smalleek:

Ruck

2021-06-14, 06:42 PM

The real question is what the band is going to be called?
• Lute Zeppelin
• Deathcab for Lutey
• Strings of Elan
• Lutey and the Blowfish

"Strings of Elan" is pretty inspired.

As someone with zero music playing experience, it seems like there is no non-dramatic way to leave a band; although that's probably because I only hear the most dramatic stories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Temptations_band_members#Timeline), dramatized stories, or parodies of dramatized stories.

R.E.M. was pretty undramatic. Bill Berry left in 1996 after having an aneurysm on tour; even though the entire band had previously agreed that they would only go on with all four of them, Berry insisted the others continue. Then in 2011 they just mutually retired the band after 30 years together.

Jay R

2021-06-14, 06:46 PM

It's a bit disappointing though that all the strips dedicated to explain how the portal trap works and setting it as the perfect ambush, with the order waiting for it to go off, seem to have been wasted without an obvious pay off.

Setting up things that we all see coming in advance has never been the narrative approach of this strip.

The Order has been in the cave since December, and one has to wonder what all these intermediate strips are good for, if they're finally rushing into the cave anyway. It's very little in-time comic time, and I'm sure the compilation book will read with good rhythm; but waiting for it to refresh online is paaaainful, at least when some build-up doesn't lead anywhere, not directly :smalleek:

I will not guess whether the build-up leads anywhere until we see where the strip goes.

If you predicted that Durkon would become a vampire,
and if you knew in advance that Vaarsuvius would sell (or at least rent out) his/her soul,
and if you were sure before he showed up that Elan's father was running the Empire of Blood,
and if you were just waiting for Shojo to explain faking character growth to Belkar,
then maybe you know enough to be sure that the build-up doesn't lead anywhere.

But if, like me, you have been surprised time after time, then wait to see what happens before you critique it for not happening.

Sit back and enjoy the ride. Rich is driving.

Psychronia

2021-06-14, 06:47 PM

The team has come a long way.

Ruck

2021-06-14, 06:54 PM

Setting up things that we all see coming in advance has never been the narrative approach of this strip.

I will not guess whether the build-up leads anywhere until we see where the strip goes.

If you predicted that Durkon would become a vampire,
and if you knew in advance that Vaarsuvius would sell (or at least rent out) his/her soul,
and if you were sure before he showed up that Elan's father was running the Empire of Blood,
and if you were just waiting for Shojo to explain faking character growth to Belkar,
then maybe you know enough to be sure that the build-up doesn't lead anywhere.

But if, like me, you have been surprised time after time, then wait to see what happens before you critique it for not happening.

Sit back and enjoy the ride. Rich is driving.

I'll also add that the trap was set 35 strips into the final book, so if you were expecting the trap to be used in the climactic fight of the whole series, you may have been off on your expectations of pacing, even after Elan more or less told you it was too soon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html).

CountDVB

2021-06-14, 07:00 PM

Serini could be perfectly well versed in the lore and still disagree with Dorukan. The stance that the destruction of ANY gate is reckless regardless of how many still stand has merit.

True though given how Dorukan and Lirian made the Gates to be with, perhaps they know something that can be done with them that the others don't understand besides the basic "don't let others get it".

Honestly, Serini is focusing on Xykon and not taking into account Redcloak, which is probably one of her blindspots.

TRH

2021-06-14, 08:28 PM

Wraithfighter

2021-06-14, 08:36 PM

Speaking of what Scribblers know about Team Evil, did we ever learn how Soon knew not only about liches and phylacteries, but also specifically that Redcloak used Xykon's as his holy symbol? Because I don't see how anyone in the Sapphire Guard could have known that at that point, especially not a member who'd been dead since before Xykon even became a lich.

Might be an epic level Paladin thing, sensing that a hideously corrupted soul was inside the Goblin's holy symbol?

Could also be a sort of "You Just Told Me" ploy: State your suspicion like it's an absolute fact, and let them confirm it for you. Risky, but can work with a strong Sense Motive. And the phylactery would likely give serious Evil vibes to Detect Evil.

mjasghar

2021-06-14, 09:45 PM

That's not even my problem with her. She doesn't know about TDO.

My problem is that unless she skipped all the lore parts, she has to know the Snarl is capable of slaughtering gods effortlessly, and that the gods are willing to pull the plug on the world rather than risk that even without that knowledge.

Assuming she is at sapphire guard level of Lore then no she doesn’t know that. She would think it’s still the 2nd world.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 10:05 PM

Assuming she is at sapphire guard level of Lore then no she doesn’t know that. She would think it’s still the 2nd world.

Uh, that was the entire concern of the Scribblers besides the Snarl itself? Also, if Soon knew that the Snarl could kill gods then I have no idea why any of the others wouldn’t.

137beth

2021-06-14, 10:25 PM

Oh hey, I somehow didn't see there was a new page when I checked this morning!

So, did Serini want them to all follow Elan, or not? She probably had a contingency for both possibilities.

danielxcutter

2021-06-14, 10:57 PM

Oh hey, I somehow didn't see there was a new page when I checked this morning!

So, did Serini want them to all follow Elan, or not? She probably had a contingency for both possibilities.

I think she probably knows them well enough that they wouldn’t leave Elan. But she’d probably be an even bigger fool than I think she is if she didn’t prepare for it at all.

2021-06-14, 11:44 PM

Wraithfighter

2021-06-15, 12:00 AM

I'm waiting to see whether V is also following after Elan. They didn't comment on whether Elan should be chased, nor are they visible in any panel following, or preparing to follow, with the rest of the party.

...mmm. Could just be the panel being too crowded and so V was left out for art reasons... but I could also totally see this being the IFCC expending their second, probably shorter, lien on V's soul/body. They're the most powerful and flexible member of the party, and a lot of Serini's tricks would be easy for V to counter.

a_flemish_guy

2021-06-15, 01:08 AM

oh elan, awarenes about the plot and what ought to be important in that very moment doesn't give any bonusses to a will-save apparantly

edit: but I'm really glad you tried

Kamunami

2021-06-15, 02:12 AM

It's a super tiny detail, but I love how when Elan says "On the other hand," he literally swaps hands.

danielxcutter

2021-06-15, 02:19 AM

It's a super tiny detail, but I love how when Elan says "On the other hand," he literally swaps hands.

*facepalms* Oh my god.

TuringTest

2021-06-15, 02:34 AM

Setting up things that we all see coming in advance has never been the narrative approach of this strip.

Oh I know, I knew there was no chance of the ambush working as suggested and leading to the final confrontation with Xykon. (There was a chance that RedCloak appeared first and they had to confront him first instead of Xykon, which may make sense at this point in the story).

But if, like me, you have been surprised time after time, then wait to see what happens before you critique it for not happening.

Sit back and enjoy the ride. Rich is driving.

I will, I've certainly not been disappointed in the long run :smallbiggrin: I was just expresing disillusion that we won't see how the magic trap resolves anytime soon; now it may take months before the struggle with Serini ends and we get back to the exit of the cave.

mjasghar

2021-06-15, 03:51 AM

Uh, that was the entire concern of the Scribblers besides the Snarl itself? Also, if Soon knew that the Snarl could kill gods then I have no idea why any of the others wouldn’t.

I meant if you think it’s only the 2nd world you don’t realise the gods have a ready made plan to ditch any worlds before the Snarl escapes.

danielxcutter

2021-06-15, 04:25 AM

Hmm...

I wonder if she'd even listen to "the gods are going to destroy the world themselves if things don't work out". I think Durkon would be more likely to start off with it since Redcloak didn't listen, but I have doubts about whether Serini will consider that at all.

Fyraltari

2021-06-15, 04:55 AM

danielxcutter

2021-06-15, 05:01 AM

Why not?90

I dunno, I just don't think reason is something she's willing to listen to at the moment.

dancrilis

2021-06-15, 05:09 AM

No, Roy destroyed it because they had no way to keep it out of Tarquin's hands once they left the continent, and unlike Nale, Tarquin would see right through the double-bluff. Tarquin has an army. It would be suicide to try and fight him.

This is how Serini sees the current situation - if she is correct then The Order has exactly one method of keeping Gates out of Xykon's hands and she disagreed when the paladins decided to use that method and she presumedly disagreed with Roy's assessment of Dorukan's gate's destruction and with Roy's decision at Girard's gate.

Tokeull

2021-06-15, 05:29 AM

locksmith of lo

2021-06-15, 06:20 AM

Fyraltari

2021-06-15, 06:38 AM

i just noticed, someone brought up kraagor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) earlier, but we do not actually see kraagor die, nor see his body. has there been any discussion as to whether he is just lost and presumed dead? :smallsmile:
Girard, who was there, says he died (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html). We don't know how exactly as he was seemignly killed by the Rift-sealing spell rather than the Snarl. Maybe they actually saw him be crushed to bits as reality rearranged itself around him or maybe he was sucked inside the Rift with the Snarl he was apparently fighting at the time (and so is unlikely to let him be).

bificommander

2021-06-15, 06:48 AM

Peelee

2021-06-15, 06:52 AM

We have already have a "happy ending" for Elan, that the ocacle promised, in #887, called Happy Ending.

No we haven't, since the author said the point of that project was to reassure the readers that no matter how dark the story got, it would all turn out OK in the end.

Also the little, almost inconsequential fact that, as that was comic #887 and we are currently on #1236, that was not an ending, happy or otherwise.

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-15, 07:14 AM

i just noticed, someone brought up kraagor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) earlier, but we do not actually see kraagor die, nor see his body. has there been any discussion as to whether he is just lost and presumed dead? :smallsmile: Why do you think that Serini is so sad? Why do you think Girard is so angry at Soon? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)
I have offered a hope that Kraagor was taken to the world in the snarl, and is sipping ice cold daquaris on a beach, but it is not helpful that Laurin detected no fish when she psi'd through the portal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) ... so I'm not sure what he'd eat.

If you have reason to think Kraagor is not dead, what is it?

Fyraltari

2021-06-15, 07:21 AM

it is not helpful that Laurin detected no fish when she psi'd through the portal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) ... so I'm not sure what he'd eat.

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?

JonahFalcon

2021-06-15, 07:56 AM

Bubs: "My chocolates! Come back, chocolates! I didn't mean what I said!"

Blue Dragon

2021-06-15, 08:32 AM

And so it begins.

TuringTest

2021-06-15, 09:01 AM

I can't help but notice that Vaarsuvius isn't talking or shown running after Elan in the last 6 panels. Nor is V casting Dispell Magic, Break enchantment, True Seeing, See Invisibility, or anything else that seems appropriate here. (Neither is Durkon, but he never has the right spells after all). Just a coincidence, or did the IFCC just call in another marker?

If that was going to happen, I'm pretty sure we would see it on panel, in a properly dramatic setup. It's too important an event for being handled off-panel.

It's more likely that Elan was on-panel, so the action centers around him. Other characters appear as soon as they have something to add to the action.

It is suspicious that Minra appears in the last panel and V does not. It could be merely to sign that the whole Order is on the move. Or it could happen that V has been deliberately left off-panel, and V's part of the action is the first thing we'll see in the next strip, being something that doesn't fit in the background of a single panel.

JonahFalcon

2021-06-15, 09:18 AM

No one caught the Homestar Runner reference? :smalleek:

Rrmcklin

2021-06-15, 09:22 AM

No we haven't, since the author said the point of that project was to reassure the readers that no matter how dark the story got, it would all turn out OK in the end.

Also the little, almost inconsequential fact that, as that was comic #887 and we are currently on #1236, that was not an ending, happy or otherwise.

Since when has the fact that the story isn't interested in subverting the prophecies and literal Word of God gotten in the way of people insisting the story is going to subvert the prophecies?

TRH

2021-06-15, 10:43 AM

...mmm. Could just be the panel being too crowded and so V was left out for art reasons... but I could also totally see this being the IFCC expending their second, probably shorter, lien on V's soul/body. They're the most powerful and flexible member of the party, and a lot of Serini's tricks would be easy for V to counter.

Seems really premature to blow on this. They only have two of those left, and the party's not even close to finding the real gate as far as we know, so it doesn't help them ensure this gate's destruction, which seems to be where they're going with all this.

And I should say that I expect their use of the second long debt to invert the previous situation, by having the three directors (or at least one of them) come to the prime material for the duration of the timeshare, since all they specified about how collection works is that their soul spends time with the directors, which isn't necessarily on their home turf. Combine that with them saying they can only be on the Prime Material to make a deal, and, well, that loophole demands exploitation. So that's gonna be their big surprise gambit there, not repeating what they did before.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-06-15, 10:52 AM

It's a super tiny detail, but I love how when Elan says "On the other hand," he literally swaps hands.It would never have occurred to me for someone to use that expression and not make a hand gesture.

I mean extends dominate hand, I guess it's an established enough expression that people will understand it sans gesture, but on the other hand extends off hand, it's not hard to vaguely wave your hands about.

i just noticed, someone brought up kraagor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) earlier, but we do not actually see kraagor die, nor see his body. has there been any discussion as to whether he is just lost and presumed dead? :smallsmile:Well, he did die by backstory (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathByOriginStory). That, combined with Rich's seeming dislike for diminishing the impact of mortality makes me think he's really dead.

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?No, but I think we should assume she scanned a typical section of the planet.

Fyraltari

2021-06-15, 10:58 AM

No, but I think we should assume she scanned a typical section of the planet.

That assumes a typical section of the planet has the Snarl in it. It's not clear how big it is supposed to be, but if it's about the size of non-shrinked Thor, it's entirely possible that Laurin didn't detect anything because all the fish in the area GTFO of there when they realized the Snarl was coming their way.

It's the same logic as why the apparition of the monster in horror stories is often heralded by the complete abscence of the expected wildlife of the area.

TRH

2021-06-15, 11:04 AM

It would never have occurred to me for someone to use that expression and not make a hand gesture.

I mean extends dominate hand, I guess it's an established enough expression that people will understand it sans gesture, but on the other hand extends off hand, it's not hard to vaguely wave your hands about.

On a third hand, it's so common that "on a third hand" has also become a common idiom, and so you kind of have to abandon the metaphor somewhere. So why not dispense with it right away?

bunsen_h

2021-06-15, 11:15 AM

That assumes a typical section of the planet has the Snarl in it. It's not clear how big it is supposed to be, but if it's about the size of non-shrinked Thor, it's entirely possible that Laurin didn't detect anything because all the fish in the area GTFO of there when they realized the Snarl was coming their way.

It's the same logic as why the apparition of the monster in horror stories is often heralded by the complete abscence of the expected wildlife of the area.

Do we have any idea of what minimum level of consciousness she'd be able to detect? That is, I'd expect some level of awareness and cognitive ability to be required in order to be smart enough to clear out, because the Snarl was on its way. Is that threshold below what Laurin can detect? In a horror story, I'd expect the wildlife to be hiding rather than actually departing.

dancrilis

2021-06-15, 11:24 AM

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?

If she used hypercognition (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) she could just know the correct answer based on very little information.

Fyraltari

2021-06-15, 11:34 AM

I'd expect some level of awareness and cognitive ability to be required in order to be smart enough to clear out, because the Snarl was on its way.
If the Snarl is as aggressive as we've been lead to believe it'd be the single greatest evolutionary pressure on that planet. In other words, everything not very good at avoiding it died without progeny centuries ago.

If she used hypercognition (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) she could just know the correct answer based on very little information.
Since her conclusion was immediately proven wrong, I'm not sure where you are going with this.

dancrilis

2021-06-15, 11:36 AM

Since her conclusion was immediately proven wrong, I'm not sure where you are going with this.

She said it wasn't the elemental plane of water and that she detected no fish - to our knowledge it isn't that elemental plane of water and she was not attacked by a fish.

bunsen_h

2021-06-15, 11:54 AM

If the Snarl is as aggressive as we've been lead to believe it'd be the single greatest evolutionary pressure on that planet. In other words, everything not very good at avoiding it died without progeny centuries ago.

Sure, but we're talking ecosystem. Large mobile critters feed on smaller, less-mobile critters, and so on down to tiny critters that eat single-celled plants. There's a cutoff point of critters simply not being mobile enough to get out of the way of the Snarl. And generally, brain size and cognitive ability also decrease as one goes down that chain. Where's the cutoff point of "aware enough for Laurin to detect" relative to the cutoff point of "aware enough and mobile enough to leave the area that the Snarl is approaching"?

I'll grant that ecosystems often don't make a lot of sense in D&D worlds. Some of those monsters don't plausibly have access to enough prey (or other specialized food) to survive on. To quote Sam Gamgee, "What do they live on when they can't get hobbit?"

Kazyan

2021-06-15, 12:27 PM

I get that Serini is clever, but bleh, it's not fun that mind control is the convenient plot device once again.

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-15, 12:41 PM

She said it wasn't the elemental plane of water and that she detected no fish - to our knowledge it isn't that elemental plane of water and she was not attacked by a fish. Hmm, the Snarl's tentacle/energy thing is a little bit Lovecraftian (and fishy/squiddy)if you really stretch it (tentacles being one of Lovecraft's obsessions).

Sure, but we're talking ecosystem. Large mobile critters feed on smaller, less-mobile critters, and so on down to tiny critters that eat single-celled plants. There's a cutoff point of critters simply not being mobile enough to get out of the way of the Snarl. And generally, brain size and cognitive ability also decrease as one goes down that chain. Where's the cutoff point of "aware enough for Laurin to detect" relative to the cutoff point of "aware enough and mobile enough to leave the area that the Snarl is approaching"? A more articulate thought than I put into my post. I like it. Thank you. :smallcool:
I get that Serini is clever, but bleh, it's not fun that mind control is the convenient plot device once again. Yeah, mind control of PCs - use sparingly or the players get really annoyed. Had one of my players miss a hold person save so he just stood up and said "I'll go take a smoke break, someone come and get me when I'm able to play again" and off he went. (THis was back when a lot of us smoked cigarettes casually during social occasions ... but he also smoked other stuff when he had it :smallwink: )

Peelee

2021-06-15, 12:55 PM

Since her conclusion was immediately proven wrong, I'm not sure where you are going with this.

It was? The "no life" conclusion?

Skull the Troll

2021-06-15, 12:57 PM

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?

Indeed, unless it has a range of several miles, once you're 20 miles off the coastal shelf there's almost no life at the surface of our ocean. Hers could be the same. That said, it doesn't seem like the snarl is known for leaving things alive. There's really just not enough data to make any reasonable predictions about what's going on yet that I can tell.

Ionathus

2021-06-15, 01:15 PM

I get that Serini is clever, but bleh, it's not fun that mind control is the convenient plot device once again.

I don't really mind this use of it. There's a difference between "mind control drives a major plot point and forces characters to do uncharacteristic things" and "mind control serves the same purpose as a shepherd's hook."

Basically, Elan could just as easily have been yoinked offstage by a Telekinesis spell or similar. The point is that somebody's attacking and they've managed to separate Elan, so now the rest of The Order has to chase after him.

It's a different ballgame than, say, "Elan has been brainwashed into serving Xykon and now we have to do a whole weird mind control arc" or whatever.

danielxcutter

2021-06-15, 01:20 PM

Fyraltari

2021-06-15, 01:30 PM

She said it wasn't the elemental plane of water and that she detected no fish - to our knowledge it isn't that elemental plane of water and she was not attacked by a fish.

It was? The "no life" conclusion?
My bad, I misremembered her as saying it was the Elemental Plane of water.

Sure, but we're talking ecosystem. Large mobile critters feed on smaller, less-mobile critters, and so on down to tiny critters that eat single-celled plants. There's a cutoff point of critters simply not being mobile enough to get out of the way of the Snarl. And generally, brain size and cognitive ability also decrease as one goes down that chain. Where's the cutoff point of "aware enough for Laurin to detect" relative to the cutoff point of "aware enough and mobile enough to leave the area that the Snarl is approaching"?

I'll grant that ecosystems often don't make a lot of sense in D&D worlds. Some of those monsters don't plausibly have access to enough prey (or other specialized food) to survive on. To quote Sam Gamgee, "What do they live on when they can't get hobbit?"
Like you've said, magic (especially D&D) ecosystems often don't make sense. I'm just saying we don't actually know the WwtW is barren of life.

Riftwolf

2021-06-15, 02:09 PM

I think it would be annoying for players though, in an actual game.

Of course, the medium of OotS means it can get away with plenty that wouldn’t slide at most tables for the sake of a better story. Case in point, most of the Don’t Split the Party arc and a good portion of Blood Runs In the Family.

Most annoying part is when players don't differentiate between Charm and Domination. One of the funnier moments of dming was when I charged the party Barbarian, everyone worrying about how they'd beat him, then the Barbarian just saying 'sorry friend!' to the monster and running off to fight new targets.

Peelee

2021-06-15, 02:10 PM

Like you've said, magic (especially D&D) ecosystems often don't make sense. I'm just saying we don't actually know the WwtW is barren of life.

That's true, but I do think it's the clear indication we are supposed to have.

danielxcutter

2021-06-15, 02:13 PM

Peelee

2021-06-15, 02:18 PM

Imean, a lot of stuff in this strip would get old fast in an actual game. I much prefer it as a story.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-06-15, 02:26 PM

That assumes a typical section of the planet has the Snarl in it. Well, technically, it follows that the typical section of the planet has the snarl it in. But it's perfectly legitimate to criticize an assumption because you dislike the conclusions it leads to.

If we assume that the snarl is much smaller than the planet or unable to detect scrying and quickly travel to the source for most of the planet, then Laurin encountering the snarl is evidence that she wasn't looking at a typical section of the planet.

If we assume only that it's unlikely that the snarl was planet sized and unlikely that Laurin saw a atypical section of the planet, that we have evidence (but not proof) for both (1) the snarl is planet sized and (2) Laurin saw an unusual section of the planet.

For myself, I'm not inclined to believe that the snarl is small, local, or mono-present. In 274, panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) the snarl is described as destroying creation in 27 minutes and depicted (albeit in crayon) as larger than the planet. It's fair game to assume the crayons are wrong, but I'm still inclined to think of the snarl as a deity/force of nature rather than a person/unit with a finite location.

By analogy, if we saw an apple fall on the other planet, I wouldn't say "I see that's the part of the world where gravity is located"; I would say "that entire planet is affected by gravity".

She said it wasn't the elemental plane of water and that she detected no fish - to our knowledge it isn't that elemental plane of water and she was not attacked by a fish.She was saying that it wasn't "going to be like the time with the marids", which presumably included trouble from the occupants of the plane.

She was searching for minds or units or living things or something that would presumably include both fish and marids, but apparently didn't include the snarl.

Breccia

2021-06-15, 03:17 PM

Wasn't Haley doing something important with that skull?

"My chocolates! Come back, chocolates! I didn't mean what I said!"

DELETED!

Kazyan

2021-06-15, 03:52 PM

I don't really mind this use of it. There's a difference between "mind control drives a major plot point and forces characters to do uncharacteristic things" and "mind control serves the same purpose as a shepherd's hook."

Basically, Elan could just as easily have been yoinked offstage by a Telekinesis spell or similar. The point is that somebody's attacking and they've managed to separate Elan, so now the rest of The Order has to chase after him.

It's a different ballgame than, say, "Elan has been brainwashed into serving Xykon and now we have to do a whole weird mind control arc" or whatever.

Yeah, it's not as comprehensive as Durkon's inner battle, but that's not what I was comparing it to. I meant all of the other uses of swirly eyes in Utterly Dwarfed, where characters were frequently dominated into making bad decisions--or if they were background characters, just turned into a vampire.

Like, thematically, we just had several strips about the nature of responsibility, and a telekinetic speech by Roy about what the order is going to do next. So, playing the mind control card just feels lame--it makes me wonder what the point of all that discussion is if the protagonists are just going to have their ability to make choices deleted when it's narratively useful. It also compromises the weight of V's remaining consequences with the IFCC--it's supposed to be a big deal that V will unexpectedly lose agenticity two more times, but, like, if that's just going to happen to the PCs all the time anyway, how much does it matter?

Wraithfighter

2021-06-15, 03:55 PM

Seems really premature to blow on this. They only have two of those left, and the party's not even close to finding the real gate as far as we know, so it doesn't help them ensure this gate's destruction, which seems to be where they're going with all this.

And I should say that I expect their use of the second long debt to invert the previous situation, by having the three directors (or at least one of them) come to the prime material for the duration of the timeshare, since all they specified about how collection works is that their soul spends time with the directors, which isn't necessarily on their home turf. Combine that with them saying they can only be on the Prime Material to make a deal, and, well, that loophole demands exploitation. So that's gonna be their big surprise gambit there, not repeating what they did before.

Well, assuming that's what their goals are. They obviously wanted Girard's Gate to be destroyed, but they've been quite mum on their actual aims.

As for it being wasteful... possibly. But the advantage of keeping V out of a fight between OOTS and Serini would be to prevent V from shutting down Serini with a few spells, and forcing an actual fight that might leave someone dead. Like Serini.

Again, more likely to just be an art decision. But interesting to ponder, at least.

TRH

2021-06-15, 04:10 PM

Most annoying part is when players don't differentiate between Charm and Domination. One of the funnier moments of dming was when I charged the party Barbarian, everyone worrying about how they'd beat him, then the Barbarian just saying 'sorry friend!' to the monster and running off to fight new targets.

Not an expert on these things, but couldn't the charmer have at least asked the Barbarian not to hurt their friends? I suppose that hangs on how you interpret what the subject "would ordinarily do," but I'd guess not fighting would qualify at least as something they do sometimes.

As for this as an actual game...well, dealing with Roy and Durkon's players while they were dead could be really tricky. I feel like at a minimum, they'd each expect to be allowed to play another character for a bit once they realized they couldn't be raised quickly.

And they routinely face challenges way above their encounter level with suboptimal characters and the party constantly split. And I'm not even talking about fights with Team Evil. They also had to face a CR20 Pit Fiend with the party split in half, one of them faced a CR19 Ancient Black Dragon alone, two of them (with one incapacitated) plus an NPC that refused to fight and another mid-level NPC faced a CR17 rogue leader, his CR13 assassin and a small army of lower-level thieves, they faced an arbitrarily large number of mooks and three seemingly epic-level characters at the end of a long adventuring day, and I'm not sure how to calculate some of the Utterly Dwarfed encounters, but the frost giants and the fight with Greg also involved a bunch of high-CR monsters.

TRH

2021-06-15, 04:20 PM

Well, assuming that's what their goals are. They obviously wanted Girard's Gate to be destroyed, but they've been quite mum on their actual aims.

As for it being wasteful... possibly. But the advantage of keeping V out of a fight between OOTS and Serini would be to prevent V from shutting down Serini with a few spells, and forcing an actual fight that might leave someone dead. Like Serini.

Again, more likely to just be an art decision. But interesting to ponder, at least.

But that assumes they're heavily invested in Serini beating the order or potentially getting killed by the order. Insofar as their goals are cryptic enough to possibly be a lot of things, you could technically argue that they might be advanced by either of those, but we do know at least a little about what they're driving at. They want to intensify the struggle over the Gates, which already makes Serini's goals run counter to theirs, since she wants to shut down this conflict even at the cost of effectively surrendering to Xykon. They also seem to want to destroy the world, as evidenced by saying that Hel almost did their job for them. Again, entirely the opposite of Serini's goals. So to sum up my argument:

1. The fiends have limited uses of their soul debt to discharge.
2. Therefore, they should not use it unless they're highly confident it will directly and materially influence the accomplishment of their primary objectives.
3. Their primary objectives involve intensified conflict over Gates, the destruction of the world, or both.
4. Kraagor's Gate has not been located yet.
5. Serini's goals involve preserving the world and ending conflict over Gates.
6. Therefore, helping Serini at this juncture would be costly in terms of resources, is unlikely to make progress towards their primary objectives because the final Gate's location remains unknown, and in fact seems actively counterproductive to their stated goals given Serini's priorities diverge from their own.
7. A loophole in their contract could potentially allow one of the archfiends to manifest on the Prime Material plane.
8. One potential application of this loophole would be to destroy the last Gate once it's located.
9. Therefore, using their debt to "scry and die" the final Gate and force the Gods to destroy the world immediately would be an efficient and relatively low-risk way to reach their final goal, and can be kept in reserve until they're sure they've reached the target.

Yeah, it's not as comprehensive as Durkon's inner battle, but that's not what I was comparing it to. I meant all of the other uses of swirly eyes in Utterly Dwarfed, where characters were frequently dominated into making bad decisions--or if they were background characters, just turned into a vampire.

Like, thematically, we just had several strips about the nature of responsibility, and a telekinetic speech by Roy about what the order is going to do next. So, playing the mind control card just feels lame--it makes me wonder what the point of all that discussion is if the protagonists are just going to have their ability to make choices deleted when it's narratively useful. It also compromises the weight of V's remaining consequences with the IFCC--it's supposed to be a big deal that V will unexpectedly lose agenticity two more times, but, like, if that's just going to happen to the PCs all the time anyway, how much does it matter?

Another bonus to my theory about the last soul debt is that if I'm right, V losing agency for a while will be the least of their worries at that point.

Ionathus

2021-06-15, 04:37 PM

Yeah, it's not as comprehensive as Durkon's inner battle, but that's not what I was comparing it to. I meant all of the other uses of swirly eyes in Utterly Dwarfed, where characters were frequently dominated into making bad decisions--or if they were background characters, just turned into a vampire.

Like, thematically, we just had several strips about the nature of responsibility, and a telekinetic speech by Roy about what the order is going to do next. So, playing the mind control card just feels lame--it makes me wonder what the point of all that discussion is if the protagonists are just going to have their ability to make choices deleted when it's narratively useful. It also compromises the weight of V's remaining consequences with the IFCC--it's supposed to be a big deal that V will unexpectedly lose agenticity two more times, but, like, if that's just going to happen to the PCs all the time anyway, how much does it matter?

I still think you're making a mistake by assuming this is anything but a momentary charm. When V cast suggestion on Enor or the Frost Giant Clerics, that wasn't some narrative statement about free will. It was a combat tactic. It was a method of temporarily neutralizing a combatant. It's no different than Z trying to Plane Shift V to the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing, or Durkon casting Hold Person on Thog back in Azure City.

Elan is not going to make any narrative decisions while mind-controlled. The plot will not be decided by mind control. The mind control will not be important. It's a momentary combat tactic by a tricksy rogue who's trying to separate them; nothing more.

Doug Lampert

2021-06-15, 04:53 PM

Krakius

2021-06-15, 06:19 PM

So, does anyone know if we've seen a caster with an orange magic aura before? Because I don't think we have.

TRH

2021-06-15, 06:22 PM

So, does anyone know if we've seen a caster with an orange magic aura before? Because I don't think we have.

The Cleric of Loki who removed Belkar's Mark of Justice curse in Cliffport.

bunsen_h

2021-06-15, 07:00 PM

Indeed, unless it has a range of several miles, once you're 20 miles off the coastal shelf there's almost no life at the surface of our ocean. Hers could be the same. That said, it doesn't seem like the snarl is known for leaving things alive. There's really just not enough data to make any reasonable predictions about what's going on yet that I can tell.

I don't think we've got evidence that the Snarl kills absolutely any living creature it contacts, do we? We know that it goes after people and gods; have we seen it kill anything else, short of destroying whole worlds? Even the "crayons" stuff from SoD doesn't indicate it.

hroþila

2021-06-15, 07:11 PM

I don't think we've got evidence that the Snarl kills absolutely any living creature it contacts, do we? We know that it goes after people and gods; have we seen it kill anything else, short of destroying whole worlds? Even the "crayons" stuff from SoD doesn't indicate it.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

It rained bloody armageddon down on the world, devouring each and every soul, from the mightiest dragon to the tiniest gnats. Nothing escaped it.
That's the lore of the Sapphire Guard. Apply as much salt as you see fit.

glissle

2021-06-15, 07:27 PM

The inevitability of a happy ending doesn't prove that Serini is wrong about what the Order might be willing to do. We are witnessing a sequence of events that will have a happy ending. That sequence of events includes Serini interfering with the Order. We have no way of knowing whether a happy ending would have happened without Serini's interference.

She was searching for minds or units or living things or something that would presumably include both fish and marids, but apparently didn't include the snarl.
That reminds me of the protomolecule network from The Expanse: so much more intelligent than human beings that it can simulate them, but not conscious itself.

WanderingMist

2021-06-15, 08:11 PM

Why do you think that Serini is so sad? Why do you think Girard is so angry at Soon? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)
I have offered a hope that Kraagor was taken to the world in the snarl, and is sipping ice cold daquaris on a beach, but it is not helpful that Laurin detected no fish when she psi'd through the portal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) ... so I'm not sure what he'd eat.

If you have reason to think Kraagor is not dead, what is it?
Only that the gods had no idea about the world inside the rift.

People keep using that as evidence of the world-within-the-world being barren of life, I keep asking what the range of Laurin's detection spell is and I keep not getting a response. Could she really have scanned the entire planet?
Whether or not she could have, the real question is if she could have detected 4-colored beings, since the Snarl managed to sneak up on her despite being seemingly gigantic.

If she used hypercognition (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) she could just know the correct answer based on very little information.
No, she could come up with an intelligent answer and be able to logically defend it. It wouldn't make that answer correct.

Yeah, it's not as comprehensive as Durkon's inner battle, but that's not what I was comparing it to. I meant all of the other uses of swirly eyes in Utterly Dwarfed, where characters were frequently dominated into making bad decisions--or if they were background characters, just turned into a vampire.

Like, thematically, we just had several strips about the nature of responsibility, and a telekinetic speech by Roy about what the order is going to do next. So, playing the mind control card just feels lame--it makes me wonder what the point of all that discussion is if the protagonists are just going to have their ability to make choices deleted when it's narratively useful. It also compromises the weight of V's remaining consequences with the IFCC--it's supposed to be a big deal that V will unexpectedly lose agenticity two more times, but, like, if that's just going to happen to the PCs all the time anyway, how much does it matter?
It matters a lot more with V since as a wizard, V is 5/8 of their firepower. V used to be 9/10 of it, but the party has certainly grown stronger individually over time.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

That's the lore of the Sapphire Guard. Apply as much salt as you see fit.
But...who told the Sapphire Guard that, or, more accurately, which god told the Order of the Scribble how things went down on that first world?

Peelee

2021-06-15, 10:14 PM

That's the lore of the Sapphire Guard. Apply as much salt as you see fit.

Shojo's story had Soon's wife die by the Snarl, and Redcloak's story had the goblin with chickens die by the Snarl. I feel like it's safe to say the Snarl most likely does kill mortals.

Plus whatever happened to Kraagor.

bunsen_h

2021-06-15, 10:16 PM

That's the lore of the Sapphire Guard. Apply as much salt as you see fit.

Fair point. We know that it's badly incomplete, which required at least some invention, if only to cover the holes.

EDIT:

Shojo's story had Soon's wife die by the Snarl, and Redcloak's story had the goblin with chickens die by the Snarl. I feel like it's safe to say the Snarl most likely does kill mortals.

Sure, but that doesn't indicate whether it goes after living creatures who aren't people.

danielxcutter

2021-06-15, 10:23 PM

Sure, but that doesn't indicate whether it goes after living creatures who aren't people.

I assume chicken don’t count as people. Also Lirian met Soon while she was looking into the disappearance of forest creatures, so…

Crœsos

2021-06-15, 10:58 PM

Lutey the Lute-tastical Lute gets name checked for the second time. Here was the first (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html). Bonus points for continuity!

bunsen_h

2021-06-15, 11:19 PM

I assume chicken don’t count as people. Also Lirian met Soon while she was looking into the disappearance of forest creatures, so…

The forest creatures disappeared, presumably into the rift; we don't know of anything bad that happened to them or the chicken.

danielxcutter

2021-06-15, 11:38 PM

Considering what happened to one of the Weepies when Lauren probed the Rift, it’s still safe to say Kraagor’s probably long gone.

Squire Doodad

2021-06-16, 02:45 AM

Considering what happened to one of the Weepies when Lauren probed the Rift, it’s still safe to say Kraagor’s probably long gone.

Yeah, even assuming Kraagor isn't dead from literally anything else, his soul has most likely been pierced like a ripe tomato.

Unless the Snarl in its current state is specifically non-aggressive unless provoked and it turns out it destroys worlds to feed on the threads or something, with consumed souls being an irrelevant side effect for it.
Which, if she's had enough time to peer into the rift and learn basic things about the Snarl, could be a reason why Serini is willing to live with Xykon taking over. She'd be assuming the Snarl is just a doomsday device in this scenario, and not something at risk of endangering the world unless it gets loose loose (in which case it'd start to feed on the loosened threads again, destroying everything).

But that assumes several other assumptions, none of which we have reason to believe.

pendell

2021-06-16, 07:12 AM

So, le joie commence. I assume this is an opening shot of Serini's based on the color of the swirly eyes, intended to divide and split the party so she can Metal Gear them individually. That's a sound strategy for an epic rogue against a high level party.

I'm puzzled this gambit worked to charm Elan, though. If they're buffing for an epic battle against a lich, surely they've got a protection from mind-affecting spells buff in place?

Perhaps they're relying on something like protection from evil, though Belkar doesn't seem to be in any discomfort, which he SHOULD be feeling if he's under the influence of his personal trinket. Still, if that is the case, I wonder if the penny will drop for Roy and Durkon: If our characters are being affected by a charm when we are under the influence of Protection from Evil, it follows the attacker must not be evil themselves. Who, then, is neutral or good yet is attacking us?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fyraltari

2021-06-16, 07:28 AM

So, le joie commence.
This is a friendly reminder that translation software isn't your friend.

I assume this is an opening shot of Serini's based on the color of the swirly eyes, intended to divide and split the party so she can Metal Gear them individually. That's a sound strategy for an epic rogue against a high level party.
Yeah, that's about right.

I'm puzzled this gambit worked to charm Elan, though. If they're buffing for an epic battle against a lich, surely they've got a protection from mind-affecting spells buff in place?
It's not a tactic Team Evil is particularly fond of, though. Apart from the throne room fight, I don't remember Xykon or Redcloak using something like that in a fight.

KorvinStarmast

2021-06-16, 07:29 AM

The mind control will not be important. It's a momentary combat tactic by a tricksy rogue who's trying to separate them; nothing more. Two centavos bet on this one.

Only that the gods had no idea about the world inside the rift.
{snip} But...who told the Sapphire Guard that, or, more accurately, which god told the Order of the Scribble how things went down on that first world? Good question; I think that an epic level druid (Scribbler) has the ability to commune with deity-level beings so she might have been the source of "what's behind this?" information. She's the divine caster (Dorukan was the arcane caster) who put the constraints on the Snarl in place. That's my guess: Lirian is the primary source of that information.
That's a sound strategy for an epic rogue against a high level party.
{snip} I'm puzzled this gambit worked to charm Elan, though. Plucking the low hanging fruit first.
{snip} I wonder if the penny will drop for Roy and Durkon: If our characters are being affected by a charm when we are under the influence of Protection from Evil, it follows the attacker must not be evil themselves. Who, then, is neutral or good yet is attacking us? Don't see them getting that far into analysis as they run after Elan.

Fyraltari

2021-06-16, 07:36 AM

Good question; I think that an epic level druid (Scribbler) has the ability to commune with deity-level beings so she might have been the source of "what' behind this" and she's the divine caster (Dorukan the arcane caster) who put the constraints on the Snarl in place. That's my guess.

Soo is the religious one so he could have prayed and received an answer too. These two are also the only two we know to have had an experience with the Snarl prior to joining the Order of the Scribble (as they founded it in response) so they were also the only two the gods were allowed to disclose information about the Snarl. Unless they learned all that after recruiting the others which is possible too, I guess.

TRH

2021-06-16, 07:55 AM

Perhaps they're relying on something like protection from evil, though Belkar doesn't seem to be in any discomfort, which he SHOULD be feeling if he's under the influence of his personal trinket. Still, if that is the case, I wonder if the penny will drop for Roy and Durkon: If our characters are being affected by a charm when we are under the influence of Protection from Evil, it follows the attacker must not be evil themselves. Who, then, is neutral or good yet is attacking us?

The mind-affecting protection provided by Protection from Evil isn't alignment-specific, only its bonus to AC and saves are limited to attacks from evil creatures.

dancrilis

2021-06-16, 08:29 AM

No, she could come up with an intelligent answer and be able to logically defend it. It wouldn't make that answer correct.

It doesn't take very high level psionics for that.

Ionathus

2021-06-16, 10:22 AM

The Sapphire Guard also purged records of the Rifts from records across the world. I'd believe that there was already some literature/analysis of the rifts, more broadly available to mortals, but that information was then censored by the SG to protect knowledge of the gates from aspiring World-Conquerors.

Peelee

2021-06-16, 10:32 AM

Sure, but that doesn't indicate whether it goes after living creatures who aren't people.

Why would the Snarl make this distinction?

This is a friendly reminder that translation software isn't your friend.

What was it supposed to say, what's the right way to say it in french, and how common an expression is it? The latter part is why I'm asking about the two former parts.

Doug Lampert

2021-06-16, 10:50 AM

Why would the Snarl make this distinction?

The idea that the Snarl might NOT go after animals strikes me as semi-bizarre. But we have at least three pieces of evidence that suggest that it does go after animals (the lore of the sapphire guard, missing animals near a rift, nothing detectable living in its world's ocean), do we have ANY evidence that it does not?

It could be that it only kills animals when unmaking a world, but ripping the rifts and reaching through them are presumably PART of unmaking a world or at least trying to do so.

It could be that the missing animals near a rift just happened to wander through the rift in large enough numbers to be noticed and draw the attention of a high level druid due to the never mentioned "rifts randomly attract animals" feature.

It could be that Laurin just happened to have no idea of what her range is or of how many animals would be expected within that range and was mistaken about the lack of detectable life meaning uninhabited; of course, this might run into trouble with the "rifts randomly attract animals" feature I needed for the last point, maybe it's attractive on this side and repulsive on the other side, yeah, that's not blatantly straining to force an explanation at all.

I might buy any one of these, but for all of the above to be true, you're getting deep into "Rich is deliberately misleading us" territory. There's something going on with the snarl and rifts beyond what we know, and that something will be relevant to the final solution, but other than the fact that we're missing SOMETHING, I'm not seeing where the idea that it might not be killing animals has any support at all or why that's a plausible something for us to be missing.

Fyraltari

2021-06-16, 10:51 AM

What was it supposed to say, what's the right way to say it in french, and how common an expression is it? The latter part is why I'm asking about the two former parts.

"So the fun begins" is my best guess.
This isn't really a case where you can make a 1-to-1 translation of the idiom, but the closest I can think would be "que la fête commence!" "Let the party start!" Which is a reasonnably common thing to say.

"le joie" is grammatically incorrect, by the way, it's "la joie" (joy). There is no proper translation of the word "fun" in French, as it covers several concepts. So we loaned it from you. Therefore yoy could say "Et le fun commence maintenant." (and the fun begins now) or some variation to get the point across.

Wannes

2021-06-16, 10:55 AM

What was it supposed to say, what's the right way to say it in french, and how common an expression is it? The latter part is why I'm asking about the two former parts.

I thought it was a bad translation of "let the game begin", which in French would be "Que le jeu commence", but "let the fun begin" fits better.

dancrilis

2021-06-16, 10:55 AM

I'm puzzled this gambit worked to charm Elan, though. If they're buffing for an epic battle against a lich, surely they've got a protection from mind-affecting spells buff in place?

Having Protection from Evil would be a very good move at fairly low cost to the party - however the party has not been shown to be optimal, which feeds into what Serini's was saying about them not being out of their league against Xykon.

It's not a tactic Team Evil is particularly fond of, though. Apart from the throne room fight, I don't remember Xykon or Redcloak using something like that in a fight.

Xykon has mass hold person which is a compulsion effect that would (it is an arguable point on the wording) be protected against by protection from evil - and could in theory one shot the party.

TRH

2021-06-16, 11:05 AM

Xykon has mass hold person which is a compulsion effect that would (it is an arguable point on the wording) be protected against by protection from evil - and could in theory one shot the party.

I'm guessing the Giant wouldn't let that fly even if RAW might say otherwise, since hold person doesn't seem like mind control even if it technically is the same kind of magic, so I suppose they have that excuse. And mass hold person is definitely not one of Xykon's more common tactics.

danielxcutter

2021-06-16, 11:07 AM

Xykon has mass hold person which is a compulsion effect that would (it is an arguable point on the wording) be protected against by protection from evil - and could in theory one shot the party.

Compulsion's a descriptor like Fire, so yeah it counts. I think Durkon might just throw up a Magic Circle Against Evil or something though.

I'm guessing the Giant wouldn't let that fly even if RAW might say otherwise, since hold person doesn't seem like mind control even if it technically is the same kind of magic, so I suppose they have that excuse. And mass hold person is definitely not one of Xykon's more common tactics.

"Mind-affecting" is a considerably wider spectrum than "mind control". If it's messing with your mind instead of physically holding you still, it usually falls under that.

pendell

2021-06-16, 11:08 AM

I thought it was a bad translation of "let the game begin", which in French would be "Que le jeu commence", but "let the fun begin" fits better.

Precisely. Thank you , Wannes, and sorry , Fyaltari, for butchering your language. But yes, I was going for "the fun begins". (la joie = joy, rejoicing, commence = to start, to begin).

That wasn't translation software , though. It was a quote from memory. Most likely me quoting a twentieth century SF author (can't remember which one) quoting a French personality at the onset of a battle. Ah well. At least I got my point across even if I shouldn't be applying for a job as a localization expert any time soon. Although Considering the competition (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq57ryXDvrU) maybe not.

Considering how bad localisations can be, I'm a bit surprised the Académie Française doesn't have a special division just to keep people from butchering French in games the way Engrish is. Perhaps they set one up and all the members died of aneurysms?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

dancrilis

2021-06-16, 11:32 AM

Compulsion's a descriptor like Fire, so yeah it counts. I think Durkon might just throw up a Magic Circle Against Evil or something though.

I would think so but ...

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

I could see an arguement for Hold Person not granting any control over the creature - it just makes them paralyzed, also I could see that arguement supported by the fact that if Protection from Evil protected against all compulsion effects it wouldn't need to specify 'that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject'.

So I would say it is debatable as to if hold person is covered by protection from evil - but if I were Roy I would not be risking running that test in a fight with Xykon (especially when Xykon, Redcloak and friend do have other abilities that protection from evil certainly covers).

TRH

2021-06-16, 11:53 AM

"Mind-affecting" is a considerably wider spectrum than "mind control". If it's messing with your mind instead of physically holding you still, it usually falls under that.

My point is that Rich cares more about things being intuitive for a general audience than RAW and how these things play out in an actual campaign. That's why he used healing potions and almost no healing wands for the longest time, because healing potions are a common motif that goes beyond D&D, while wands of healing make less immediate sense. By the same token, I wouldn't expect him to let protection from evil work against hold person even if RAW says otherwise because that doesn't follow naturally to someone who's unfamiliar with this system. Freedom of Movement would work because it stops spells that impede movement, but Protection or Mind Blank are only connected to hold person by the specifics of the magic system and schools of magic, intricate details that would confuse an outsider.

bunsen_h

2021-06-16, 12:02 PM

Why would the Snarl make this distinction?

It's possible that it's interested in sentience / intelligence, in particular. Do animals have souls, in D&D? If not, the Snarl may be interested only in souls and soul-powered beings like the gods. The descriptions and images we have from the "crayons" sequences don't seem to suggest that the Snarl reaches out through the rifts to take plant life, at any rate. There's no mention of the immediate vicinity of the rifts being scoured of all life, and that would have been notable. Lirian was searching for some missing animals, but there's no mention of the Snarl having cleared the vicinity of the forest rift of all animal life.

Fyraltari

2021-06-16, 12:02 PM

Precisely. Thank you , Wannes, and sorry , Fyaltari, for butchering your language. But yes, I was going for "the fun begins". (la joie = joy, rejoicing, commence = to start, to begin).
Wait, was it "la joie" (joy) or "le jeu" (the game) that you meant?

That wasn't translation software , though. It was a quote from memory. Most likely me quoting a twentieth century SF author (can't remember which one) quoting a French personality at the onset of a battle.
Uh. The closest quote I can find would be Nicolas Changarnier's "Soldats, ils sont six mille, vous êtes trois cents. La partie est donc égale. Regardez-les en face et tirez juste." ("Soldiers, they are six thousands, you are three hundreds. The game is therefore balanced. Look them in the eye and shoot true.") That doesn't feel right.

Considering how bad localisations can be, I'm a bit surprised the Académie Française doesn't have a special division just to keep people from butchering French in games the way Engrish is. Perhaps they set one up and all the members died of aneurysms?

It's cute that you think the Académie cares at all what English-speakers are doing. Or that they would ever do anything positive.

Peelee

2021-06-16, 12:10 PM

It's possible that it's interested in sentience / intelligence, in particular. Do animals have souls, in D&D? If not, the Snarl may be interested only in souls and soul-powered beings like the gods. The descriptions and images we have from the "crayons" sequences don't seem to suggest that the Snarl reaches out through the rifts to take plant life, at any rate. There's no mention of the immediate vicinity of the rifts being scoured of all life, and that would have been notable. Lirian was searching for some missing animals, but there's no mention of the Snarl having cleared the vicinity of the forest rift of all animal life.

Barring specific instances, plant life is not typically a "creature" in D&D terms, which may be notable for the lack of plant death.

Outsiders are intelligent, withiut souls, and not soul powered, so one would expect that the gods would be likely to try to send them to at the very least act as buffers between them and the Snarl before mind wiping them if they were protected.

Blue Dragon

2021-06-16, 12:26 PM

I don't think Serini is trying to separate them, though. She is removing the party from their ambush spot.

TRH

2021-06-16, 12:26 PM

Unless I'm forgetting something, is this lengthy back and forth on the Snarl's eating habits not supposed to relate back to the original question of whether the planet in the rift is inhabited or not? Because if that's what this boils down to, then I don't see why we need to make this more complicated than that we just don't have enough information to be sure. The Snarl hasn't consumed that planet yet, so if there's life down there, it might also have been spared for whatever reason, but we simply don't know.

I don't think Serini is trying to separate them, though. She is removing the party from their ambush spot.

Two things can be true. That being said, her attitude re: the inevitability of Xykon seizing the Gate means that she might not value the secret of the tunnels nearly as much as we initially assumed. And if the Order did blow that surprise, only to rush to near-immediate death at the hands of Team Evil without having found the Gate to potentially destroy it, that's close to a best-case scenario for her.

dancrilis

2021-06-16, 12:31 PM

pendell

2021-06-16, 12:41 PM

Wait, was it "la joie" (joy) or "le jeu" (the game) that you meant?

I meant "la joie" (the joy = the fun) but, now that you've mentioned it, "le jeu commence" (let the game begin) would be a better phrase and better communicate the idea. So I would've meant "Le Jeu Commence" if I'd spoken to you beforehand :smallamused:

Uh. The closest quote I can find would be Nicolas Changarnier's "Soldats, ils sont six mille, vous êtes trois cents. La partie est donc égale. Regardez-les en face et tirez juste." ("Soldiers, they are six thousands, you are three hundreds. The game is therefore balanced. Look them in the eye and shoot true.") That doesn't feel right.

Fair. It was only a half-remembered quote anyway. I'm willing to forget it if you are.

It's cute that you think the Académie cares at all what English-speakers are doing. Or that they would ever do anything positive.

Well, you pay for them so they must be good for something right? I would've expected translations of video games into inferior French to give some people heart attacks. Is this not a thing that happens? It's hard for me to imagine that the people who funded such poor English translations would suddenly turn around and hire top-class talent for the French localisation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

dancrilis

2021-06-16, 12:47 PM

Well, you pay for them so they must be good for something right?

Just because someone forces you to pay for something doesn't necessarily mean that the thing you are paying for is good for anything other then as a excuse to take your money.

Fyraltari

2021-06-16, 01:17 PM

I meant "la joie" (the joy = the fun) but, now that you've mentioned it, "le jeu commence" (let the game begin) would be a better phrase and better communicate the idea. So I would've meant "Le Jeu Commence" if I'd spoken to you beforehand :smallamused:
I think you've mixed up Wannes and me at some point. They suggested you meant "game" and you replied "precisely".

Well, you pay for them so they must be good for something right?
I honestly have nothing good to say about the institution. I'd develop but it'd get political, so let me just point out that their pretense to be a safeguard for the French language is ridiculous on at least two accounts: 1) they don't have a single liguist in their roster* 2) most native French speakers aren't French.

I would've expected translations of video games into inferior French to give some people heart attacks. Is this not a thing that happens? It's hard for me to imagine that the people who funded such poor English translations would suddenly turn around and hire top-class talent for the French localisation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Maybe it's because of my relative youth, or because I don't play that many video games or because most game I've played are western products but I don't recall running into actually bad localisations.

*It's almost like linguists don't like prescriptivism, who would have guessed?

Quizatzhaderac

2021-06-16, 04:05 PM

It's cute that you think the Académie cares at all what English-speakers are doing. Or that they would ever do anything positive.But what if the game was using anglicisms or provincial language?

Surely, then they'd want to put at least a parental advisory sticker on them?

Fun fact, the united states actually has three language academies: Spanish, Yiddish, and more Spanish.

Jay R

2021-06-16, 04:20 PM

Like you've said, magic (especially D&D) ecosystems often don't make sense. I'm just saying we don't actually know the WwtW is barren of life.

It has large green areas (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html). That's usually an indication of life.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-06-16, 04:48 PM

It could also be that all the bacteria and things that cause rotting are also dead, in which case the planet would remain green without anything green growing recently.

Riftwolf

2021-06-16, 08:54 PM

Not an expert on these things, but couldn't the charmer have at least asked the Barbarian not to hurt their friends? I suppose that hangs on how you interpret what the subject "would ordinarily do," but I'd guess not fighting would qualify at least as something they do sometimes.

The charmer (a Harpy sorcerer) had hoped the Barbarian would defend her from the rest of the party at least for a few rounds (I should point out that the Dungeon they were running was a 'timed' event where the party had 100rds to get to the Evil Priests before they could summon an Emissary of Lamashtu. The monsters weren't fighting to survive, just stall the party long enough to complete the ritual. Thinking the entire dungeon populace were the Barbarians friend after a 1st level spell would've been taking the proverbial, especially as the Barbarians sister was being used as a vessel for the Emissary)

but I'd guess not fighting would qualify at least as something they do sometimes.
You very clearly didn't know this Barbarian. I asked him to wait. He stormed the castle alone. When the party needed info on the cult, he randomly arrested a bystander for interrogation before finding out the rest of the party had followed up on actual clues I gave them. Rather than freeing the prisoner, he told the guards (who were all too terrified of him to argue) that he'd been caught shoplifting.

bunsen_h

2021-06-16, 10:45 PM

It could also be that all the bacteria and things that cause rotting are also dead, in which case the planet would remain green without anything green growing recently.

Chlorophyll and many other plant pigments degrade fairly quickly in the presence of light and oxygen, when they're not part of a living system. Green turns grungy brown. Some other plant pigments are more stable -- those used for dying fabric, for example.

When I was in my second summer working in a chem lab, IIRC, I extracted chlorophyll and a couple of flower colours into solvents to decorate my lab coat with. It seemed to work pretty well initially, but they all faded to brown really quickly.

TRH

2021-06-16, 10:50 PM

You very clearly didn't know this Barbarian. I asked him to wait. He stormed the castle alone. When the party needed info on the cult, he randomly arrested a bystander for interrogation before finding out the rest of the party had followed up on actual clues I gave them. Rather than freeing the prisoner, he told the guards (who were all too terrified of him to argue) that he'd been caught shoplifting.

I'll admit, I hesitated to add that clause at all specifically because I figured it was far more likely than not that your barbarian friend was more or less as you describe. I was thinking in a more general "if you don't fight literally every waking hour, then not fighting would at least not be against your nature," but, well, even that might be optimistic.

Peelee

2021-06-16, 11:10 PM

F.Harr

2021-06-16, 11:24 PM

I'm sure it's been said before, but Roy's really grown as a leader.

And Elan as comic relief/Damsle in distress.

arimareiji

2021-06-17, 03:39 AM

Chlorophyll and many other plant pigments degrade fairly quickly in the presence of light and oxygen, when they're not part of a living system. Green turns grungy brown. Some other plant pigments are more stable -- those used for dying fabric, for example.

When I was in my second summer working in a chem lab, IIRC, I extracted chlorophyll and a couple of flower colours into solvents to decorate my lab coat with. It seemed to work pretty well initially, but they all faded to brown really quickly.
Thank you, that clicked a puzzle piece into place. Feel free to laugh, but I was bemused by the fact that the last leaf on an orchid I accidentally baked* is still green, although fading to brown -- I was extremely optimistically hoping that while the others had gone brown quickly, maybe the plant could be rescued if this one didn't die. (It stands to reason that it already has, it'll just take a little while for it to be obvious.)

* - Our practice moved to a much nicer location... but we didn't realize that with the angle of the building and less-reflective windows, on sunny warm days** temperatures can soar in the early-to-mid morning before anyone arrives.
** - Uncommon in the Pacific NW, but sometimes it happens. (^_~)

greenfunkman

2021-06-17, 04:28 AM

This is slightly off topic but do you think that Belkar's skills in the culinary arts would allow him to create masterpieces on Serini's alchemy cauldron?

danielxcutter

2021-06-17, 06:37 AM

This is slightly off topic but do you think that Belkar's skills in the culinary arts would allow him to create masterpieces on Serini's alchemy cauldron?

The fire in a pottery kiln does not a fried egg make. I suspect it’d be the same with that.

Skull the Troll

2021-06-17, 09:08 AM

The fire in a pottery kiln does not a fried egg make. I suspect it’d be the same with that.

I dont know... He made a passable stew once with scavenged veggies from a battlefield, some buzzard, and (probably) some goblin bits.

danielxcutter

2021-06-17, 09:13 AM

I dont know... He made a passable stew once with scavenged veggies from a battlefield, some buzzard, and (probably) some goblin bits.

Considering the MitD is willing to call dibs on a moldy cheeseburger and was eating fat-free scones, I'm not inclined to consider his tastes to be accurate guidelines.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-06-17, 11:38 AM

The fire in a pottery kiln does not a fried egg make. I suspect it’d be the same with that.I guess that's possible in principle, but I don't see any reason for an alchemy cauldron to be so much worse in any aspect than a regular cauldron; much like you can definitely cook in a standardly equipped chemistry lab, it's just inefficient.

As long as alchemy frequently involves not burning stuff, heating stuff, and control over the temperature and time, and cleanliness/purity of ingredients: you have the tools you need.

Cooking is just chemistry with edible stuff.

bunsen_h

2021-06-17, 12:15 PM

Had you considered turning your lab coat into a living system?

I can't see how that could go wrong. :smallcool:

"New from Muppet Labs, Where the Future is Being Made Today! Living clothing! It's warm, it's comfortable, it's... uh, Beaker, I think that lab coat is a bit long for you. The sleeves are going past your hands, and the collar is starting to go over your head. Oh, dear..." [*grumf grumf*]

See also: the "cat blanket" (https://vorkosigan.fandom.com/wiki/Live_furs) from the Vorkosiverse.

I once looked into making myself a lab coat with an old-school design, like early 20th century ish. Similar to Dr Horrible's. Did a good bit of research finding the actual material really good lab coats are made of. Can't remember the name of it, but I was damned impressed by its properties.

Of the four lab coats in our house -- two are mine, two my wife's -- three are labelled with their ingredients: polyester/cotton. One of those is also labelled "post cured". I don't know if they're "really good lab coats". From a bit of searching on line to find out what the "post cured" means, I get the impression that the fabric material is originally spun as plain cotton. Then either before or after weaving, that's impregnated with polyester resin and "cured" at around 100'C for about an hour -- which sets the resin -- then "post cured" at around 80'C for about 12 hours, which presumably makes it still more stable. This gives the fabric the strength of the cotton, and adds the chemical resistance of fully-cured polyester, completely protecting the cotton. There aren't a lot of reagents that would chew through that quickly, so one would have a decent chance of getting the lab coat off before the chemical got to one's clothing, or oneself. Regular polyester/cotton blends -- I think -- are spun into thread out of a combination of the two fibres, so there isn't the effect of the two materials protecting each other.

Back when I was a lab TA for first-year university students, a major part of the "your first day in a chemistry lab" orientation was the safety stuff: knowing the locations of fire extinguishers, eye wash stations, emergency showers, and such. The importance of wearing a lab coat and safety goggles or side shields any time one was around chemicals, because even if you weren't working with them, your neighbour might be, or there might be some unexpected reaction waiting to happen from a mistake that someone had made sometime previously. "Because some of the chemicals you'll be working with, and some of the things just sitting out on your bench at all times -- you see those bottles on the little stands in the middle of the benches? -- can hurt you pretty badly. If you get them on you, wash them off immediately. If you spill one of them on your lab coat, take it off right away. If you think something nasty has gotten into your clothing, or you get a bad spill on your skin, get under the safety shower, yank the lever, and get your clothes off. I'm not trying to be crude here, and I'm not joking about this. Which is worse, a bit of embarrassment, or permanent scarring? I personally would prefer that you not get injured; the paperwork is a pain."

Peelee

2021-06-17, 12:24 PM

I can't see how that could go wrong. :smallcool:.
Think of it, you could be the father of a whole new field of science!

Of the four lab coats in our house -- two are mine, two my wife's -- three are labelled with their ingredients: polyester/cotton. One of those is also labelled "post cured". I don't know if they're "really good lab coats". From a bit of searching on line to find out what the "post cured" means, I get the impression that the fabric material is originally spun as plain cotton. Then either before or after weaving, that's impregnated with polyester resin and "cured" at around 100'C for about an hour -- which sets the resin -- then "post cured" at around 80'C for about 12 hours, which presumably makes it still more stable. This gives the fabric the strength of the cotton, and adds the chemical resistance of fully-cured polyester, completely protecting the cotton. There aren't a lot of reagents that would chew through that quickly, so one would have a decent chance of getting the lab coat off before the chemical got to one's clothing, or oneself. Regular polyester/cotton blends -- I think -- are spun into thread out of a combination of the two fibres, so there isn't the effect of the two materials protecting each other.

Back when I was a lab TA for first-year university students, a major part of the "your first day in a chemistry lab" orientation was the safety stuff: knowing the locations of fire extinguishers, eye wash stations, emergency showers, and such. The importance of wearing a lab coat and safety goggles or side shields any time one was around chemicals, because even if you weren't working with them, your neighbour might be, or there might be some unexpected reaction waiting to happen from a mistake that someone had made sometime previously. "Because some of the chemicals you'll be working with, and some of the things just sitting out on your bench at all times -- you see those bottles on the little stands in the middle of the benches? -- can hurt you pretty badly. If you get them on you, wash them off immediately. If you spill one of them on your lab coat, take it off right away. If you think something nasty has gotten into your clothing, or you get a bad spill on your skin, get under the safety shower, yank the lever, and get your clothes off. I'm not trying to be crude here, and I'm not joking about this. Which is worse, a bit of embarrassment, or permanent scarring? I personally would prefer that you not get injured; the paperwork is a pain."
Thanks to a bit better Googling and some help from MIT, I found the material again. Nomex. Synthetic, has excellent heat, chemical, and radiation resistance.