An Update on New Settings

[jaappleton]

https://twitter.com/WinningerR/status/1404492196397522955?s=20

Settings Update: As I've mentioned on a couple of occasions, there are two more products that revive "classic" settings in production right now. The manuscript for the first, overseen by Chris Perkins, is nearly complete. Work on the second, led by F. Wes Schneider with an assist from Ari Levitch, is just ramping up in earnest. Both are targeting 2022 and formats you've never seen before. In addition to these two titles, we have two brand new #DND settings in early development, as well as a return to a setting we've already covered. (No, these are not M:tG worlds.) As I mentioned in the dev blog, we develop more material than we publish, so it's possible one or more of these last three won't reach production. But as of right now, they're all looking great.

[Dork_Forge]

I'd put my money on another Eberron book if we're looking at something already covered not FR, unless it's referencing Greyhawk and the adventures that took place there.

[jaappleton]

I'd put my money on another Eberron book if we're looking at something already covered not FR, unless it's referencing Greyhawk and the adventures that took place there.

It could also be another form of a starter set.

I don't see the need for one, I think Essentials does a wonderful job.

But... never know.

EDIT: Just had a crazy thought.

They took Curse of Strahd and made the Domains of Dread into a campaign setting, right?

What if they did it to another adventure?

Underdark setting, taking Out of the Abyss and expanding on it?

[Dork_Forge]

It could also be another form of a starter set.

I don't see the need for one, I think Essentials does a wonderful job.

But... never know.

I really hope not, there's enough from 1st level adventures and no end to them in sight. At least more support for Tier 2+ as a start would be nice.

[Arkhios]

I honestly can't say I wouldn't be interested if Ghosts of the Saltmarsh heralded the return of Greyhawk setting.

[FilthyLucre]

I honestly can't say I wouldn't be interested if Ghosts of the Saltmarsh heralded the return of Greyhawk setting.
Yas plz. I was so disappointed that Greyhawk wasn't the default for 5e.

[jaappleton]

A new setting led by Perkins...

......Perkins is a massive, and I mean utterly MASSIVE, fan of one particular setting.

Working on it was his first freelance work for WOTC. He's always been a fan of it, it holds a hugely special place in his heart.

Sigil.

As far as a setting being revisited?

Think about it.

1. Hugely popular.
2. One of their best selling books.
3. Campaign 2 just ended.

Its Critical Role.

[KorvinStarmast]

Its Critical Role. Please, no.
But, I can see how that's a decision that would be made.

[Unoriginal]

A new setting led by Perkins...

......Perkins is a massive, and I mean utterly MASSIVE, fan of one particular setting.

Working on it was his first freelance work for WOTC. He's always been a fan of it, it holds a hugely special place in his heart.

Sigil.

I thought Perkins was an utterly massive Spelljammer fan.




As far as a setting being revisited?


Think about it.

1. Hugely popular.
2. One of their best selling books.
3. Campaign 2 just ended.

Its Critical Role.

... Matt Mercer losing creative control of his setting to another corporation after changing things to fit the corporate side of CR sounds like an ironic hell.

[Telwar]

Hrm. I could easily get behind a new Planescape; most of the outsider types you'd need have been published, and I liked the factions. They can focus on those in lieu of alignment, at the very least.

[KorvinStarmast]

... Matt Mercer losing creative control of his setting to another corporation after changing things to fit the corporate side of CR sounds like an ironic hell. It does, but there may be a greenback poultice that might soothe the psychic pain. :smallcool:

[jaappleton]

I thought Perkins was an utterly massive Spelljammer fan.




... Matt Mercer losing creative control of his setting to another corporation after changing things to fit the corporate side of CR sounds like an ironic hell.

Forgive me, I never learned how to break apart quotes.

Perkins loves Spelljammer, but Sigil is his favorite setting. It’s very dear to his heart because it’s the gateway to his career.

Mercer wouldn’t lose creative control. They started Darrington Press to self publish, yes, but they (and I say this with love) aren’t capable of a whole campaign guide. Their first for Tal’Dorei was by Green Ronin, Wildemount was with WOTC. It’s one of WOTC best selling books to date. They want some of that action. WOTC is a business first and the main goal is to make money. Mercer and the CR crew can hire all the freelancers they want, but none of them are experienced enough to push out a whole campaign setting as a book.

[Sparky McDibben]

formats you've never seen before.

Now what could that mean?

[jaappleton]

Now what could that mean?

THAT is a great question.

And I have zero clue as to what the answer might be.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Forgive me, I never learned how to break apart quotes.

Perkins loves Spelljammer, but Sigil is his favorite setting. It’s very dear to his heart because it’s the gateway to his career.
I remember when Dice Camera Action was still running they were dipping their toes in both of those settings, for someone who came late into the DND party both settings were incredibly interesting despite only being more or less hinted towards on stream.


Mercer wouldn’t lose creative control. They started Darrington Press to self publish, yes, but they (and I say this with love) aren’t capable of a whole campaign guide. Their first for Tal’Dorei was by Green Ronin, Wildemount was with WOTC. It’s one of WOTC best selling books to date. They want some of that action. WOTC is a business first and the main goal is to make money. Mercer and the CR crew can hire all the freelancers they want, but none of them are experienced enough to push out a whole campaign setting as a book.
I'm not sure he would lose creative control over it either, but I also don't know if he'd be completely against having other writers add on to his setting at this point.

Granted, what's happening now is a much smaller scale than handing it over to a corporation would be (and still very much within their own control) but the Exandria Unlimited campaign they'll be running between campaigns 2 and 3 will feature a new DM with Matt as a player. Pretty sure the adventure will be canon to the setting.


THAT is a great question.

And I have zero clue as to what the answer might be.
Unseen to 5E I assume... Could perhaps be alternative "Player's Handbooks" with a new set of base classes and spells specific to a setting, something like Rising from the Last War dialed up to 11. That seems a bit over the top though so I'm not putting much stake into that idea.

[Ralanr]

As unlikely as it would be, I would like to see a new setting that takes a shot back at the modern magic UA. Since SpellJammer or Sigil aren't new settings, but classics, like Dark Sun.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm actually going to double down on the Council of Wyrms. Old, old setting for D&D, and the hook could be "tada, your PC is a shapeshifting dragon." That'd be a new format, and it could take advantage of the Dragon-focused UAs that they had recently.

You'd be able to have some fights as big honking dragons, and then they could have you infiltrate human cities/go into cramped dungeons and caves in your smaller humanoid form.

EDIT:
As unlikely as it would be, I would like to see a new setting that takes a shot back at the modern magic UA. Since SpellJammer or Sigil aren't new settings, but classics, like Dark Sun.
Now, d20 Modern could be a very cool setting to revisit. I'd totally be down with that (though they've mentioned that UAs more than a year ago with no further word on them are probably dead, so that does make a d20 Modern less llikely, given how long ago the Modern Magic UA was.

[Yakmala]

They could go all the way back to the beginning and create (with his estate's permission) a new 5e version of Dave Arneson's Blackmoor.

[KorvinStarmast]

They could go all the way back to the beginning and create (with his estate's permission) a new 5e version of Dave Arneson's Blackmoor. Not sure if 5e can do Blackmoor justice, but that's an interesting idea if the financials can get squared away.

[Ralanr]

Now, d20 Modern could be a very cool setting to revisit. I'd totally be down with that (though they've mentioned that UAs more than a year ago with no further word on them are probably dead, so that does make a d20 Modern less llikely, given how long ago the Modern Magic UA was.

I didn't know that (I had a large blip of 5e news when I stopped playing) and that's a bit disappointing, but I think a new d20 modern is probably the most unique thing they could push for a new setting. Since well, they already have settings to hit other genres pretty well.

Ravenloft: Horror
Dark Sun: Post-Apocolyptic
Eberron: Steampunk/pulp
Spelljammer: SPACE!
Dragonlance: High Fantasy with a black and white morality
Forgotten Realms: High Fantasy with a more grey morality
Greyhawk/Mysteria: A type of fantasy but idk.

[KorvinStarmast]

Greyhawk/Mysteria: A type of fantasy but idk.
Gritty, lethal fantasy, but still medium to high magic.

[Ralanr]

Gritty, lethal fantasy, but still medium to high magic.

Ah ok. Still heavily fantasy focused though.

[Comaward]

CLASSICS
Dark Sun
Planescape

NEW
Fantasy Asia setting

RETURNING
Greyhawk


At least, that’s what I’d like to see.

[jaappleton]

CLASSICS
Dark Sun
Planescape

NEW
Fantasy Asia setting

RETURNING
Greyhawk


At least, that’s what I’d like to see.

They did an Asian setting.

Kara-Tur

However, looking back on it, ‘problematic’ is a good word to describe it.

[Sparky McDibben]

OK, so just to recap:

Aug - Feywild adventure
Sep - ???
Oct - Strixhaven

Early 2022:

Two "classic" settings in "never-before-seen" formats

One setting already examined in 5e. Probably more Critical Role content. That fair?

[Rafaelfras]

The one they are revisiting is Forgotten Realms, that's for sure.
There is no sense in anything else. They are doing full campaign settings now, with Eberron and Ravenloft already out, 2 more coming and they gonna leave their main setting with just SCAG? No way.
As for the other books I think it's Dragonlance (draconic ua+ novels ) and the other I rly don't know. Chris Perkins relationship to sigil is a very strong hint but dark sun is also a very strong candidate

[Unoriginal]

Forgive me, I never learned how to break apart quotes.

Copy/paste the QUOTE thing at the start of the quote, and ends every quote window with [/QUOTE].

[Arkhios]

Please, no.
To quote Belkar's recent words: "Hard same"

I'm not saying Critical Role setting(s) would necessarily be bad, I would just prefer seeing updates for the badly neglected older settings.

[jaappleton]

To quote Belkar's recent words: "Hard same"

I'm not saying Critical Role setting(s) would necessarily be bad, I would just prefer seeing updates for the badly neglected older settings.

I get what you’re saying.

On the flip side, CR has been amazing for the hobby. It’s brought in tens of thousands of new players to tabletop.

And, in all honesty? I would surmise they are more vocal in what they want. WOTC knows they’ll buy a new Exandria book, it’s a sure thing. It’s also new, meaning they won’t have to worry about “Oh it was better in edition ___”. They don’t know if you or I are going to like or buy the next Dragonlance, or Mystarra.

From a business sense, another CR book makes perfect sense.

[Gyor]

They did an Asian setting.

Kara-Tur

However, looking back on it, ‘problematic’ is a good word to describe it.

It's been a over 100 years, the planet has been maginuked by the death of Mystra and rebuild by an Overgod, the cosmology itself got restructured several times. They can largely rebuild Kara Tur, with a few well chosen nods to the past and important nation names, and do what ever they want, hell subcontract that job to an Asian RPG company and no one can say **** at that point.

I will say the strangest, most ironic thing is that most of the folks I've seen defending Kara Tur are racial minorities, Asian, Latino, even Native American, and they've all been silenced by white folks offended on their behalf. I'll give you an example, on the Onyx Path forums I got DMed by a an Asian man who told me it was a waste time defending Kara Tur there, because even as an Asian man he got thrown out of the thread for defending Kara Tur, I mean WTF? How is that inclusivity? If Asians aren't allowed to defend Kara Tur, who is?

Don't get me wrong there is ton of stuff in Kara Tur that needs to be fixed, and updated, but it still bothers me that guy got silenced dispite being a member of the very group who was supposed to be offended by it. I just don't get it.

[jaappleton]

Representation is incredibly important.

I think it’d be wonderful to have an Asian centric setting. I also want Al Qadim, too.

My question is, with how problematic they have been looking back at them… Should they throw them out and start from scratch or try to salvage them?

[Gyor]

I get what you’re saying.

On the flip side, CR has been amazing for the hobby. It’s brought in tens of thousands of new players to tabletop.

And, in all honesty? I would surmise they are more vocal in what they want. WOTC knows they’ll buy a new Exandria book, it’s a sure thing. It’s also new, meaning they won’t have to worry about “Oh it was better in edition ___”. They don’t know if you or I are going to like or buy the next Dragonlance, or Mystarra.

From a business sense, another CR book makes perfect sense.

The Forgotten Realms is still more popular then CR and WotC doesn't have to share the profits with CR if it's a Forgotten Realms book. CR fans have no complaints about EGtW, but FR fans had tons of complaints about the SCAG.

Also CR is not ready for a new book, it hasn't even started Season 3 and won't for awhile. New CR books don't come out until late in the Season they are for because the campaigns themselves help shape the setting.

So no it's not a CR book.

And there is no pressing reason to do Eberron and MtG returns (the MtG settings have already been ruled out by Ray anyways), and Ravenloft is JUST released.

So it's beyond obvious it's for the Forgotten Realms, it's the only one of the settings already done who were unhappy with their Campaign Setting book (which I personally would not consider the SCAG to be, although WotC does), it doesn't meet the standard of previous editions.

[KorvinStarmast]

The more time goes on, the more I think they're not doing anything with Dragonlance. Hope you are right.

They'll continue to fold the lore and the best bits into the meta, but I don't see them bringing it back as a full on setting. Tough to bet against that.

Having said all that, I'm not sure 5e can pull it {Dark Sun} off. Especially since a true Psionics system has never come to fruition and the Mystic is apparently dead in the water after several attempts. Getting other classes and whatnot right to give off the old 2e release "feels" of Dark Sun might be too much to ask for. Would I get it? Sure. But I really don't want to be disappointed. The psionics not being fleshed out is certainly an obstacle.


And really, I think if they don't revisit Forgotten Realms soon, there's going to be a riot. SCAG hasn't sold well for quite awhile methinks, and was a disappointment to say the least. FR is popular, basically the default setting, and most of SCAGs crunch got reprinted elsewhere, from cantrips to subclasses. Not a good look. Needs fresh paint. Especially now that there's a TV show and a Movie in the works and both are apparently going to be FR related. New people come into the game after watching the new show and/or movie and the only sourcebook they can find for FR is SCAG? Nope, not gonna work. FR campaign setting incoming methinks right before that new media drops. Your reasoning is pretty solid here; not betting against.

That said, if they can rebuild Kara Tur from the ground up, that would be neat.

[Waazraath]

Representation is incredibly important.

I think it’d be wonderful to have an Asian centric setting. I also want Al Qadim, too.

My question is, with how problematic they have been looking back at them… Should they throw them out and start from scratch or try to salvage them?

I don't know if it's possible within the forum rules jaapleton, but if it is, could you tell me what is problematic about Al Qadim? I played a 5e conversion as my first 5e campaign, and I don't remember anything particular problematic. Maybe my DM filtered it out, or I just didn't notice, but I'm curious now.

[NRSASD]

I don't know if it's possible within the forum rules jaapleton, but if it is, could you tell me what is problematic about Al Qadim? I played a 5e conversion as my first 5e campaign, and I don't remember anything particular problematic. Maybe my DM filtered it out, or I just didn't notice, but I'm curious now.

Yeah, I'm seconding that request. The only issue I remember with it as a setting is that it took a bit to develop conflicts since most creatures defaulted to being peaceful.

[Gyor]

Yeah, I'm seconding that request. The only issue I remember with it as a setting is that it took a bit to develop conflicts since most creatures defaulted to being peaceful.

I think people just assume it is "problematic" because it was written by white people, not folks from the middle east, but I've heard no complaints from folks from the region.

[jaappleton]

What Gyor said.

A setting heavily and obviously inspired by a particular culture should be authored by people representing that culture.

Not necessarily exclusive authored by. But the list of authors should not be devoid of them.

And that’s what’s been the case previously.

That’s all I will say on that, as I feel we might now be skating close to some forum rules here.

[Waazraath]

What Gyor said.

A setting heavily and obviously inspired by a particular culture should be authored by people representing that culture.

Not necessarily exclusive authored by. But the list of authors should not be devoid of them.

And that’s what’s been the case previously.

That’s all I will say on that, as I feel we might now be skating close to some forum rules here.

Thanks, clear. Going back to your earlier question:


My question is, with how problematic they have been looking back at them… Should they throw them out and start from scratch or try to salvage them?

I think it should be pretty easy to salvage them, in that case? Just hire a bunch of new authors, I think there are plenty of talented people who'd love that kind of work. I don't know Kara-Tur at all, but Al Qadim is fun and estabelished enough to keep it. Also, there are already references to these settings (I know at least of a few in SCAG), so letting Al Qadim die and making something very similair would seem strange.

[Kuulvheysoon]

They did an Asian setting.

Kara-Tur

However, looking back on it, ‘problematic’ is a good word to describe it.

I mean, there was also the "generic" Oriental Adventures book that wasn't Kara-Tur. Mind you, it had it's own share of problems, but it wasn't connected to the Forgotten Realms at all (unlike Kara-Tur), so I'd guess that it's more likely to be rebooted? Maybe?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Personally (and this is likely unpopular), I absolutely don't want settings "based on" real world anythings. Cultures, myths, peoples...don't care. I don't like expies. I want new settings that start with D&D and take D&D's lore as their starting point. Or at least react to that. Not try to shoehorn in other things. And it's not for any reason like being "problematic" or anything real-world--I just find expies and !CultureX things boring. And they involve making serious compromises on both sides, leaving you with something that's neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat. Or even nice veggies, to extend the idiom. It's like those bad attempts at doing vegan food that mimics meat...poorly. It doesn't respect either the source or the target.

[Waazraath]

Personally (and this is likely unpopular), I absolutely don't want settings "based on" real world anythings. Cultures, myths, peoples...don't care. I don't like expies. I want new settings that start with D&D and take D&D's lore as their starting point. Or at least react to that. Not try to shoehorn in other things. And it's not for any reason like being "problematic" or anything real-world--I just find expies and !CultureX things boring. And they involve making serious compromises on both sides, leaving you with something that's neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat. Or even nice veggies, to extend the idiom. It's like those bad attempts at doing vegan food that mimics meat...poorly. It doesn't respect either the source or the target.

Interesting point of view. I wouldn't mind, if it would be done right, but it seems terribly, terribly hard to do it at all, and then do it in a way that it appeals to a large crowd. I mean, almost all fantasy literature DND is based on, is in itself based on real world historical stuff, very often western/european/historical/medival, whether or not 'really' historical or a romantized or mythological version of it. Castles, knights, all that... I mean, even look at the maps of Middle Earth, Midkemia or Warhammer Fantasy, to name a few.

Settings appeal, I think, because they are coherent. Something like Theros has (random order) hydra's, bronze armor, phalanxes, and a pantheon of human-like deities with human flaws and emotions. Everybody recognizes the historical period it is based on, its coherent. And it has instant appeal to people liking that period of history.

If you try to make something really, really new, ignoring all historical context (as far as that is possible, cause e.g. the weapons and armor and items and skills are modeled after the real world), you won't get that instant recognition (and positive feelings going with that) from the crowd. I mean, look at the monster manual: almost all monsters that are 'stayers' over the editions of dnd are based on real world mythology or established fantasy settings; new monsters from older editions show up and disappear, I mean, check new, self-made monsters from MM4 or MM5, edition 3.5 - I don't think you see many around these days.

Oh well... rambling a bit here maybe, hope that I'm clear. I think it can be done, if you have really talented people and good PR, maybe combine it with computer games, books and/or Mtg... but I also think it's darn hard.

[Sparky McDibben]

Settings appeal, I think, because they are coherent. Something like Theros has (random order) hydra's, bronze armor, phalanxes, and a pantheon of human-like deities with human flaws and emotions.

Agree with your premise, but not your support. Coherency is due to theme; everything listed is just set dressing. That's why literally the first section of Theros has to do with building a Greek-themed character: tragic flaws, archetypes, etc.

[Catullus64]

Curious about "formats you've never seen before." The most prosaic and uninteresting interpretation of that statement is that these books will have new platforms and media through which they'll be distributed, but I'm hoping to be surprised.

I think about how the major crunch releases (Xanathar's, Volo's, Mordenkainen's, Tasha's) all have a strong diegetic element: they're books with a singular author who interjects with their own asides, and to some extent
they are all in-universe books about a particular set of topics. I hope that setting books could do something similar, and have a really interesting in-setting nature.

Maybe it means that they'll shake up the boundaries between Crunch Book/Setting Book/Adventure, and make books that blend elements of all three. Hopeful about what this somewhat cryptic statement could mean.

[Corsair14]

As much as I despise Eberron I see that as the returning setting. They have already done the ground work on it and it would be easy to flesh more of it out in a book.

Greyhawk as much as I would love for it to be the returning setting has the onus of being too much like Forgettable Realms and a general fantasy realm despite having far richer lore and history.

As for the two classics we have 4 real options at this point.

Spelljammer or Planescape: the writer is a huge fan of these. Spelljammer would be my preferred but with space combat needing its own rules, dozens of ships to detail, so many races and alien creatures that need stats and information blocks, it really would take two books or so. I cant see them putting that much effort into it. Planescape has many of its creatures and planes already detailed. They will have to find a happy medium involving how alignment and belief has real tangible meaning versus the silliness that is alignment in 5th but that can be overcome.

The other two classics, Dragonlance and Dark Sun. Since WOTC doesn't like to put real investment into its campaign worlds like TSR liked to do, I see Dragonlance being the other classic realm. Most races are the same, most classes will carry over, throw in some alignment based magic, various draconian species, and Solamnic Knights and you have a splat book. Dark Sun on the other had pretty much would require its own PHB as it is so radically different. Most races don't exist or are majorly changed. New races are present and need their own explainations and abilities. Quite a few classes are completely different from base PHB or don't exist at all and new classes need to be added. Then you have a chapter on how magic works, a whole new creature catalogue since most creatures from base don't exist, and the setting itself. Easily multiple books worth of new stuff. WOTC is not going to invest in that, they want one book and done so DragonLance it probably will be.

[verbatim]

One way to avoid controversy is to use old european mythos. There wasn't really an uproar about misrepresentation when they released a very obvious Greek Mythology expy (Theros), I wouldn't be surprised to see them do something similar but with Atlantis/Vikings or some FR equivalent (Sea of Fallen Stars?)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Agreed on not wanting more settings based on real world mythologies. One of the reasons I really dislike FR. I'll even go so far as to say I don't want settings (or games) based on other mediums like books, movies, tv shows etc. Although I usually run *homebrew campaign worlds of the sandbox style, I do like reading thru other settings and mine them for ideas for my own games.

*I think I've only ran 3 published settings, and none of them for 5E. Mystara for B/X (Moldvay/Cook), Greyhawk recently for some players that wanted to experience 1E, and Dark Sun for 2E.

I've only run 5e games in
* FR (a couple one-shots, mostly, plus part of Princes of the Apocalypse)
* a different DM's homebrew setting (not a fan)
* my own setting (99.999% of my games)

I don't particularly like Eberron for aesthetic reasons, but I can admit that I'd probably be willing to play in it. Of the D&D settings, it's probably highest on my list. FR is incoherent and bloated (plus all the expies, which I don't like), but the worst thing are the names. I just can't get past the NPC names presented in the adventures. :smalleek: I don't like horror, so Ravenloft is just meh. And I strongly dislike the MtG settings at a core-principles level. Something just flat rubs me the wrong way.

Other settings can be useful, but I'll admit that setting books are only slightly above adventures on my "to buy" list (ie very very far down below a lot of 3rd party resources).

It's more the principle of the thing--one of my largest peeves is when people play the "what D&D class is X" where X is from a non-D&D IP. And a lot of it is that I have strong feelings about worldbuilding--worldbuilding should start at the base metaphysics and build as organically as possibly from there. Internal consistency matters a lot to me. And that's really hard to do when you start with a "theme" and shove things into an existing framework that wasn't designed for them. Either the mechanics or the setting have to give, and frequently that ends up with both mechanics and setting broken. Starting at "I want to shoehorn IP/culture/X into D&D" is putting the cart before the horse and guaranteeing conflict both at the setting/mechanics level[1] and at the thematic level[2].

However--I should reiterate that I'm not really the one to talk here, as I'm not really in the target market. And this is all pure opinion, not some statement of objective fact.

[1] Non-D&D IPs tend to have core metaphysics that doesn't really work with D&D mechanics without serious retrofitting...heck, lots of earlier edition D&D settings have those issues. Planescape, Dark Sun--these would need almost entire overhauls of either the core mechanics (blech) or the setting (also blech) to actually make sense in 5e. It's one of the big issues I have with FR--there's so much old-edition "legacy cruft" based on assumptions that just don't hold in 5e. And we saw what happened when they tried to clean that out (ie 4e's debacle).
[2] This one hits other IPs worse than it does RL cultures--most other IPs don't have nearly as much room for a "squad of equals" adventuring team. The stories most heavily associated with them are heavily protagonist + posse driven, which is IMO horrible to try to insert into a team-based game like D&D. Or have fundamental ideas about what it means to be a hero that don't mesh well with D&D and mean you have to rebuild all the content from scratch.

[Sparky McDibben]

This has been bothering me for a couple threads now - what the heck is an expy?

[PhoenixPhyre]

This has been bothering me for a couple threads now - what the heck is an expy?

A copy with the serial numbers filed off, but clearly intended to be X, but in Y. So a character that comes from another world with flying brick powers activated by the yellow sun and with a LG attitude might very well be a superman expy.

[Telok]

Now what could that mean?

Formats never seen before?
Live "pages" in subscrober-only discord channels that you buy each 5-7 page section of with a microtransaction.

Based on that jank survey.

[Cicciograna]

What if "Formats you have never seen before == some kind of support for VR"? Can you imagine? Yeah, you want to be an orc, you want to be a dwarf, you want to be a halfling in a fantasy world? Yeah, now you are.

Granted, that would completely change the paradygm of the game, which would become more of a videogame than a TTRPG, but it could be cool.

[Sparky McDibben]

Granted, that would completely change the paradygm of the game, which would become more of a videogame than a TTRPG, but it could be cool.

I can't really see that happening, and I think it's a bad move for several reasons. 1) TTRPGS distinguish themselves based on how far you can stretch hour imagination. I already don't like VTTs because I can't find tokens that adequately represent the weird stuff in my head. Any VR or Talespire engine will only compound that problem. WotC be like "Good luck reskinning this orc, ***-holes!"

2) WIZARDS IS NOT A SOFTWARE COMPANY. End of the day, WotC sells ideas. That's really what an adventure is: it's an idea designed to be experienced through play. The culture, goals, and values of a software company are going to seriously screw with WotC's publishing, especially if the dev team can veto ideas because "We can't code that."

[Gyor]

Thanks, clear. Going back to your earlier question:



I think it should be pretty easy to salvage them, in that case? Just hire a bunch of new authors, I think there are plenty of talented people who'd love that kind of work. I don't know Kara-Tur at all, but Al Qadim is fun and estabelished enough to keep it. Also, there are already references to these settings (I know at least of a few in SCAG), so letting Al Qadim die and making something very similair would seem strange.

Thanks to the time line jump by over a hundred years you can kind of have your cake and eat it too, salvage, but also do something new. Use the Nation names of Kara Tur (a few could be updated like say Talbot) and the general shape of the land mass, don't recon the past, but otherwise you can go nuts in the present. Want have Ajit add in a India analog? You can do that. Want merge T'u Lung back into Shou Lung? You can do that. Want to add more traditional D&D Dragons like Chromatics, Matallics, and even Gem, you can do that. Want add more none human races and Kara Tur less human centric and anti none humans, you can do that (and in 4e James Wyatt actually started to do so in Dragon Magazine).

[Gyor]

What if "Formats you have never seen before == some kind of support for VR"? Can you imagine? Yeah, you want to be an orc, you want to be a dwarf, you want to be a halfling in a fantasy world? Yeah, now you are.

Granted, that would completely change the paradygm of the game, which would become more of a videogame than a TTRPG, but it could be cool.

Ray said it's a new PRINT format, not Digital only.

[jaappleton]

Ray said it's a new PRINT format, not Digital only.

What new print format? He engraving rocks and hucking 'em through peoples windows?

[Gyor]

One way to avoid controversy is to use old european mythos. There wasn't really an uproar about misrepresentation when they released a very obvious Greek Mythology expy (Theros), I wouldn't be surprised to see them do something similar but with Atlantis/Vikings or some FR equivalent (Sea of Fallen Stars?)

It's very ironic that fear of cultural appropriation is functionally leading to the blocking and even erasure of none European cultures in D&D and other media. It's why I'm very critical of the idea and the damage it does to minorities (or globally Majority in the case of Chinese and South Asians).

The concept of CA is the enemy of multiculturalism (a value I hold dearly as a Canadian, it's right in our constitution) and diversity because it leads to cultural ghettoization. The blocking of intercultural exchange cuts minority creators and those inspired by them off from larger markets, destroying the economic viability of their culture and making the cultural exchange entirely one way leading to assimilation of minorities by majorities and a lack of cultural and political influence on the part of minorities.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It's very ironic that fear of cultural appropriation is functionally leading to the blocking and even erasure of none European cultures in D&D and other media. It's why I'm very critical of the idea and the damage it does to minorities (or globally Majority in the case of Chinese and South Asians).

The concept of CA is the enemy of multiculturalism (a value I hold dearly as a Canadian, it's right in our constitution) and diversity because it leads to cultural ghettoization. The blocking of intercultural exchange cuts minority creators and those inspired by them off from larger markets, destroying the economic viability of their culture and making the cultural exchange entirely one way leading to assimilation of minorities by majorities and a lack of cultural and political influence on the part of minorities.

Well said, fellow Canadian. That being said, if they do decide to pull inspiration from, say, Indian culture, it'd really be in their best interest to actually hire someone familiar with it (preferably someone belonging to said culture, but I know what WotC is like, so I don't hold that high of hopes).

[Nifft]

Well said, fellow Canadian. That being said, if they do decide to pull inspiration from, say, Indian culture, it'd really be in their best interest to actually hire someone familiar with it (preferably someone belonging to said culture, but I know what WotC is like, so I don't hold that high of hopes).

They should hire a professor who can teach comparative religions.

Not just an expert on one region's history, but someone with sufficient perspective to see each region from the perspective of the others.

[Silly Name]

One way to avoid controversy is to use old european mythos. There wasn't really an uproar about misrepresentation when they released a very obvious Greek Mythology expy (Theros), I wouldn't be surprised to see them do something similar but with Atlantis/Vikings or some FR equivalent (Sea of Fallen Stars?)

One important detail is that Theros is inspired by Ancient Greek myth but does its own stuff and while some of the inspirations are clear they are also disconnected enough from the real deal. A lot of the stuff in it is pure genre convention and heavily influenced by MtG's needs as a game at least as much as it is influenced by the source material.

Kara-Tur was... weird. "Take a map of eastern Asia, change the edges a bit and call it a setting"-weird. It honestly hardly feels like an actual D&D setting and more like Asia with the serial numbers filed off, which is what makes it largely problematic more than anything else.


I really hope we get to see some Dragonlance stuff. It's one of my favourite settings, along with Spelljammer, and I think both could reasonably work in 5e. Dark Sun would be interesting too but since it requires variant rules for basically everything plus a good psionic system, I think it's very unlikely.

[Gyor]

Well said, fellow Canadian. That being said, if they do decide to pull inspiration from, say, Indian culture, it'd really be in their best interest to actually hire someone familiar with it (preferably someone belonging to said culture, but I know what WotC is like, so I don't hold that high of hopes).

They have an East Indian Freelancer who is working on South Asian inspired stuff for a WotC book in 2022 according to his twitter (I suspect it's the revisit of the Forgotten Realms book as it's one if the very few D&D settings that has South Asian elements, but it could be one of the new setting like a hypothetical Domains of Delight setting). He worked on Ravenloft and his domain is freaking awesome, it has alot more almost real world horror and its one of the bigger domains, especially with its connected subdomain. It's also the best domain for for high level play as it's Darklords are high level creatures.

[Gyor]

They should hire a professor who can teach comparative religions.

Not just an expert on one region's history, but someone with sufficient perspective to see each region from the perspective of the others.

Given that almost all religions in D&D are polytheistic they could hire an expert in Polytheology.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe they'll do a setting book for the old D&D cartoon.

[Waazraath]

Maybe they'll do a setting book for the old D&D cartoon.

I would approve!

[Catullus64]

Ray said it's a new PRINT format, not Digital only.

Great. With any luck, it'll be some unusual size print that won't fit properly on my RPG shelf with the other 5e books.

[Azuresun]

What Gyor said.

A setting heavily and obviously inspired by a particular culture should be authored by people representing that culture.

Not necessarily exclusive authored by. But the list of authors should not be devoid of them.

Would you apply that same standard to any number of examples of Asian media based on Western history or mythology, or fantasy fiction traditions that originated in Europe? For example: Dark Souls, Record of Lodoss War, Hellsing, Berserk, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Vinland Saga and of course, the Fate series.

[Silly Name]

Would you apply that same standard to any number of examples of Asian media based on Western history or mythology, or fantasy fiction traditions that originated in Europe? For example: Dark Souls, Record of Lodoss War, Hellsing, Berserk, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Vinland Saga and of course, the Fate series.

I have direct knowledge of only Berserk and Dark Souls, and apart from aesthetics those works don't particularly reflect medieval European culture in any way. They are not set in a transparent "theme park" version of some real country like Kara-Tur is, and cleave closer to standard medieval fantasy worlds.

(I have also had some approaches with the Fate franchise and honestly immediately disliked it)

[verbatim]

One important detail is that Theros is inspired by Ancient Greek myth but does its own stuff and while some of the inspirations are clear they are also disconnected enough from the real deal. A lot of the stuff in it is pure genre convention and heavily influenced by MtG's needs as a game at least as much as it is influenced by the source material.

While this is true I also think that an important factor in the Greeky Mythology MTG setting being picked to get a dnd book is the fact that no one worships Zeus anymore who would be deeply offended, which is why I think other mythologies might pop up as "inspiration but we do our own stuff" for the new settings being alluded to.

[TyGuy]

I don't know if it's possible within the forum rules jaapleton, but if it is, could you tell me what is problematic about Al Qadim?
The fact that it's Asian-centric. People will complain about anything that derives inspiration from or characatures real world cultures. Best to leave it at that because this topic easily spirals and the mods get trigger happy around it.


formats you've never seen before
I bet it's something that's not as revolutionary as one might start imagining. My guess is building off dragon heist where you had 4 seasons and associated villains, to make a "choose your adventure" where they incorporate more branches to the module. Previous modules had optional content or randomized content (like CoS). Dragon heist had "locked out" paths that all led to the same end. Maybe they're working on a module with branching options that exclude a great deal of the rest of the book to make replay even more unique each play through.

[Xervous]

Would you apply that same standard to any number of examples of Asian media based on Western history or mythology, or fantasy fiction traditions that originated in Europe? For example: Dark Souls, Record of Lodoss War, Hellsing, Berserk, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Vinland Saga and of course, the Fate series.

I don’t think the current rules allow for a two way street on standards.

[Spriteless]

Would you apply that same standard to any number of examples of Asian media based on Western history or mythology,
...
the Fate series.

I was actually uncomfortable seeing J'eanne d'Ark acting as polite as a Japanese woman. Where would a French farmer turned warrior learn that?

The baseball episode of Samurai Champloo gets under my skin worse.

But that's not the background noise of my life, so I just use it to empathize when other people are angry at being portrayed badly.

[Nifft]

With Chris Perkins being announced as leading one of the classic settings, Planescape or some version thereof makes a lot of sense for one of the classic settings. Especially since the original artist, Tony DiTerlizzi, has been showing up in D&D/M:TG stuff all the time. He still draws Planescape (I think Tieflings and some other stuff will show up in the M:TG Adventures in the Forgotten Realms set), shows up on Dragon Talk Live numerous, drops music playlists for Planescape, and one and on. It would also give WotC a chance to play up Faction tenets and step further away from alignment as I've seen several people post in different forums.

I hope you're right about this.

In my opinion, 5e would be a GREAT fit for Planescape -- where you can encounter very out-of-depth conflicts, and yet have a hope at contributing (if not much hope of winning outright without help) -- and where your level 3 Rogue social skills might actually be able to talk your way out of some messes.

Planescape could be a fantastic fit for bounded accuracy.



I was actually uncomfortable seeing J'eanne d'Ark acting as polite as a Japanese woman. Where would a French farmer turned warrior learn that?

The baseball episode of Samurai Champloo gets under my skin worse.

But that's not the background noise of my life, so I just use it to empathize when other people are angry at being portrayed badly.

I think that's the one where they turned King Arthur into a high school girl ... but if I recall correctly, it's also a porn game, so I'm not going to get too upset about historical inaccuracies.


Honestly the most I'd ask for an Asian-themed setting is that they use Asian stereotypes of Asian mythology rather than European stereotypes, and that they explain those stereotypes enough that I can leverage them in play.

[Dark.Revenant]

Where would a French farmer turned warrior learn that?

By being summoned by a system that fills your brain with world history, a multitude of languages, and cultural customs.

At least, that's the standard cop-out they use to keep things simple.

[Nifft]

Can you imagine if D&D removed all the fantasy interpretations of those Gods, Devils, Demons and so on? The poor Nine Hells would be in a serious leadership vacuum.

The lower planes could still have Baatezu, Tanarii, and other such contrivances which were invented to circumvent the accusations of M.A.D.D.

(In this case, it could even be argued that Mothers Against Dungeons & Dragons saved all the devils of Hell.)

[Kuulvheysoon]

IIRC, it's pretty heavily implied that that the "Mulhorandi" pantheon is straight up the Egyptian pantheon (as the Mulhorandi people are descendants of ancient Egyptians).

[Arkhios]

And as far as deities go, the Forgotten Realms has taken fantasy inspiration from entire pantheons such as the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons, as well as many others such as Oghma, Mielikki, Talos, Tyr, Sylvanus, Selune, Loviatar, Ilmater, Tempus, Tyche etc.

Others such as Sune (Aphrodite), Talona (Kiputytto), Helm (Heimdall), Bane (Druaga) and so on at least changed the name significantly.

What's more, I find it's somewhat elevating as a Finn, that three of those deities are in fact from Finnish folklore and our National Epic: Kalevala (Mielikki, Loviatar, and Kiputyttö, which translates literally "Paingirl")


IIRC, it's pretty heavily implied that that the "Mulhorandi" pantheon is straight up the Egyptian pantheon (as the Mulhorandi people are descendants of ancient Egyptians).

Yes, this is not only implied but a fact. Forgotten Realms/Faerun is notorious of having numerous portals to other worlds, including our Earth, and people of Mulhorandi migrated there from Earth at some point in history. This idea was penned by Ed Greenwood, by the setting's creator himself.