The Whale Wrestler, an AMF Grappler

[Anthrowhale]

The Whale Wrestler is capable of winning a grapple with any monster manual creature. The key to this build is getting a high grapple bonus inside an AntiMagic Field which shuts off magical defeats to grapple such as Freedom of Movement and Teleport. I'm definitely curious about anyone with ideas for how to create an improved AMF grapple build.

This is V6 using Black Blood Cultist, Fierce Grappler, Druid, Stonegrind Wrestling, and a bit of magic with suggestions from Elves, ShurikVch, Khatoblepas, and Zarvistic.


Anthopomorphic Baleen Whale (Savage Species) provides large size, a healthy +8 to strength, and a tail attack with LA+0 and 3 racial hit dice.

The Half-Ogre (Dragon #313) template provides an extra +4 to strength and is LA+0 when applied to large creatures.

The Amphibious template provides the aquatic subtype and the amphibious quality with LA+0.

Altogether, the character starts at ECL 3 with large size and a strength of 30 making a formidable grappler.


Classes are fairly straightforward although with some unfamiliar choices or for unfamiliar reasons.

Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale comes with 3 monstrous Humanoid hit dice, which at least grant full BAB.

Huntsman Druid (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) provides Track, a prerequisite for Black Blood Cultist and via Urban Companion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)[Octopus(Stormwrack)] a +3 bonus to grapple checks in an AMF. It also provides a minor bonus to AC based on wisdom.

Barbarian provides Rage, which works inside an Antimagic Field and is prerequisite for Black Blood Cultist. The City Brawler variant (Dragon #349) also provides Improved Unarmed Strike, a prerequisite for Improved Grapple, Black Blood Cultist, Fierce Grappler, and Stonegrind Wrestling.

Black Blood Cultist provides access to Hide and Move Silently as class skills for Scaled Horror while advancing Barbarian Rage. At level 2 it provides Improved Grapple as a bonus feat for a +4 grapple bonus. Black Blood Cultist 5 provides "Stranglehold" = move action coup de grace. Black Blood Cultist 8 provides "Savage Grapple" = damage with all natural weapons for each grapple check.

Scaled Horror 1 provides access to Improved Grab for all natural weapons against creatures your size (large) or smaller. Qualification for Scaled Horror is why the amphibious template was taken.

Exoticist 1 provides proficiency with Scorpion Claws (providing a +4 grapple bonus) and Power Attack, a prerequisite for Fierce Grappler and Stonegrind Wrestling.

Fierce Grappler (Dragon #295) 2 provides "Great Grappler" which enables hold and pin against size+2 creatures (i.e. Colossal or less with Stonegrind Wrestling). Fierce Grappler 5 also provides "Choke out" which is a fort save DC+grapple damage dealt the round of a pin or unconscious for 1d3 rounds.


There are good feats at every level which improve grappling or improve your ability to initiate a grapple via improved grab.

1. Endurance //Prerequisite for Stonegrind Wrestling.
3. Great Fortitude //Prerequisite for Stonegrind Wrestling.
3. Multiattack //+3 to hit with nonprimary natural weapons
Druid 1: Track // Required for Black Blood Cultist
Barbarian 1: Improved Unarmed Strike //Required for Black Blood Cultist, Fierce Grappler, Improved Grapple, Stonegrind Wrestling
6. Snow Tiger Berserker //Pounce with light weapons (Natural attacks are light)
Black Blood Cultist 2: Improved Grapple // +4 to grapple checks
Exoticist 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(scorpion claws) //from Sandstorm +4 to grapple checks
Exoticist 1: Power Attack //Required for Fierce Grappler, Stonegrind Wrestling
Not a feat: Stonegrind Wrestling (Dragon #303 page 58) allows you to count as one size larger for grappling checks (i.e. effectively Huge)
9. Multigrab //+10 to grapple checks with a natural attack to hold with a limb.
Goring Horn: Improved Bull Rush
12. Greater Multigrab //grapple with a limb to hold for free.
15. Stunning Fist // Required for Fierce Grappler
18. Battle Jump // Double damage for improved grabs and adds 4 to the first grapple check when activated.


Improved Grab works with natural attacks, so maximizing the number of natural attacks is very helpful. This is most easily done via grafts.

Tail (1d4+8(Str/2) ABW)
2xClaw (1d8+8(Str) Rending Claw, 10K gp total)
4xTentacle (1d6+19(Str) Aboleth Tentacles placed below and above the arm/forelimb, 200K gp total)
Gore (2d6+8(Str/2) Goring Horn, 8K gp)
Bite (2d8+8(Str/2) Grasping Mandibles, 15K gp)
Tongue (0 damage, but Fort 17 or paralyze as a touch attack, 24K gp)

Black Blood Cultist also provides a Rend special attack which deals an extra 2xclaw damage.


Altogether, this allows for 10 improved grabs per round (and on a charge attack) at up to +35 to hit and up to a +55 grapple bonus inside of an AMF.

The strength is 47=18(base)+8(ABW)+4(Half-Ogre)+2(Silthilar Muscles, 110K gp)+5(inherent)+4(levels)+4(Rage)+2(Deformity From Warp Touch BoVD page 31 with the 1-in-50 chance expected after 50 days using an Amulet of Second Chances, 40K gp)
For Aboleth Tentacles, the strength is 51 due to an untyped +4 bonus

While raging with a strength of 47 using the Hauling Back graft the carry capacity is 49920lbs as a heavy load or 249600lbs dragging. Since large or smaller creatures essentially always weigh a small fraction of this, up to 10 creatures can be grappled at the same time.

The grapple bonus is 53=16(BAB)+18(Strength)+4(Scorpion Claws)+4(Improved Grapple)+3(Octopus Familiar)+8(effectively Huge with Stonegrind Wrestling)
For Aboleth Tentacles, the grapple bonus is +55 due to extra strength.


The Whale Wrestler works best in a party where a wizard can cast an Antimagic Field on it, so investing in some pearls of power to keep one up throughout the adventuring day makes sense. If forced to operate solo, there are a number of ways for the Whale Wrestler to use Antimagic.

Antimagic Torc (Underdark page 73, 25K) for almost 2 hours/day
Bulwark of Antimagic (Draconomicon): AMF 1/day CL 11; 27580 gp
Magebane Manacles (Arms&Equipment page 134, 132K) provides an always-on solution although it may just function like Antimagic Aura (for a creature and it's items) rather than Antimagic Field (with a 10' radius).
Antimagic Shackles (Book of Exalted Deeds page 116, 132K) provides an always-on AMF with a 5' radius, enough to cover either the whale wrestler or part of the whale wrestler and part of an adjacent creature, but not both.
Third Eye beholder graft (Fiend Folio): CL 13 AMF in shape of 50' cone, 3/day; 165000 gp
Dust of Negation (Lords of Madness): 1-use AMF in 10' spread for 2 minutes (or 2 rounds - in windy conditions); 3300 gp
(Many of these are from ShurikVch)


The Whale Wrestler has multiple combat options available---capture, debuff, damage, and kill.

The Whale Wrestler can reliably impose grappled-in-an-AMF for up to 10 large-or-smaller opponents in the first round of combat by using Snow Tiger Berserker to pounce and Scaled Horror 1's improved grab with 10 natural attacks. For example, a Balor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) has an AC of 35 implying natural attacks triggering improved grab hit 95% of the time, and the Balor's grapple modifier of +36 implies the Whale Wrestler succeeds 95% of the time for an overall success rate of ~90%. They also weigh only 4500 lbs, so you can greater multigrab 3 and run (or fly) around the battlefield unimpeded with a light load. Note though that the greater multigrab bonus only applies to holds, so other grapple checks are more difficult. A grapple bonus of 35 however remains competitive with the Balor's 36.

Alternatively, you can grapple one colossal opponent at the cost of being grappled yourself. That's two sizes greater than normal due to the combination of Fierce Grappler 2's "Great Grappler" ability and Stonegrind Wrestling. For either conventionally grappled (with a full grapple+55) or multigrabbed opponents (with an effective grapple of +35), the Whale Wrestler can use Black Blood Cultist 8's Savage Grapple to inflict ~182.5 damage. This can be done up to 4 times per round at a cumulative -5 to the grapple check on iteratives, potentially inflicting ~730 damage. Note that when using limbs to grapple, savage grapple damage is plausibly reduced by the used limb. This damage can be increased further by using Battle Jump to hit with each natural attack for double damage and then following up with 4 grapple checks for ~1095 damage.

It's also possible to outright kill creatures using a combination of Fierce Grappler 5 which provides a fort-or-unconscious based at a DC of 15+grapple damage (i.e. DC ~197.5) and Black Blood Cultist 5 which provides a move action coup de grace with bite attacks.

Covering some different angles: Unseelie Fey, or a Feathered Wings graft allow adding flight and there is a Silthilar graft which provides fast healing.

The grapple bonuses of monsters can become extremely large due to size, hit dice, and strength. Nevertheless, the Whale Wrestler can compete with all of them.

The standard opponents with access to freedom of movement and a large grapple bonus are dragons with access to the cleric list. Looking through the common ones at CR 19 or 20, we see:

Very Old Blue +49
Old Red +52
Ancient Brass +50
Very Old Bronze +49
Very Old Copper +47
Old Gold +55
Old Silver +46

So a grapple bonus of +55 in an AMF rivals the best of these (and, of course, protects against breath weapons). That's probably good enough, particularly considering that you can situationally use Battle Jump for an extra +4 bonus on the initial grapple check and the large amount of damage that savage grapple puts out.

Much larger grapple bonuses exist. The Tarrasque leads here, but other CR 20-or-less colossal creatures include:

Colossal Baleen Whale: 59 (CR 15)
Colossal Cachalot Whale: 59 (CR 16)
Colossal Kraken: 73
Colossal Purple Worm: 70
Colossal Nightcrawler: 54
Colossal Roc: 68

These opponents commonly lack access to Freedom of Movement. Against such opponents, a non-AMF approach using a few additional magic items is helpful.

Belt of Giant Strength (+6 enhancement bonus to strength, for a +3 grapple increase, 36K gp)
Gloves of Titan's Grip (MIC, +8 enhancement to grapple checks, 7K gp, may want several)
Ring of Growth (Savage Species page 54, 18Kgp, may want several) increases size category and adds 4 to strength.

Altogether these increase the maximum grapple bonus to 72 which competes with everything except the Tarrasque.

To handle a Tarrasque, a friendly caster could add a few buffs.

Investiture of the Barbed Devil (Cleric/Wizard 6) for a +4 profane bonus to grapple checks for minutes/level.
Investiture of the Pit Fiend (Cleric/Wizard 9) increases base attack bonus by 4 for minutes/level.
Aura of Vitality (Druid 7) increases the strength by 4 as a morale bonus for rounds/level.
Fuse Arms (Cleric/Wizard 2) increases strength by 8 while fusing the tentacles and arms into a single pair. for 10 minutes/level.

Adding these provides a grapple bonus of 86, capable of competing with (and typically even beating) the Tarrasque (grapple bonus +81).

It is possible to get much larger grapple bonuses via various means to getting personal-only spells cast on the Whale Wrestler.


Epic monsters can have grapple bonuses larger than 100, however there are several tricks which become available in an epic build as well, making it possible to remain competitive against most monsters.

In terms of class, War Hulk stands out, since it gives a +20 strength bonus over 10 levels and epic base attack rules imply you still get an effective +5 base attack. Altogether, this is worth +15 to grapple checks by level 30.

In terms of feats, Legendary Wrestler (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryWrestler) gives a flat +10 bonus to grapple checks.


In considering this build, we ran into several corner cases of grappling not covered by the (somewhat notorious) grappling rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) or the Rules (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a) of (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a) the (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a) Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a) articles.

This is v3, particularly with help from Elves

Q: If you use the limb hold option ("use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent") with improved grab, can you use grapple options afterwards?
A: Yes. The text for a limb hold is ambiguous about whether or not this is just a 'hold' or grappling, but text elsewhere indicates that grappling is occurring. For example, Multigrab says:

When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack...

Q: When using a limb hold option with improved grab, how many grapple checks can the creature initiate on held opponents?
A: It depends on the option used, but for grapple checks used in place of an attack, as many as base attack bonus allows (up to 4) each round are possible.

Some of these actions take the place of an attack... If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Q: When using improved grab, which grapple checks cause damage?
A: Only grapple checks for causing damage. Improved Grab in the d20srd is ambiguous, but the Rules Compendium says:

Whenever the creature makes a successful grapple check to deal damage, it deals the damage indicated for the natural weapon that it used to make the improved grab... as an alternative to unarmed strike damage.

Q: When using the (Greater) Multigrab feat, which grapple checks are improved by 10 (or 20)?
A: Only grapple checks to maintain a hold. This means using other grapple options when using a limb hold are substantially more difficult.

Q: Does a grapple check roll of '1' result in automatic failure? Or '20' in more damage?
A: Yes. The rules say it is 'like a melee attack roll' without stating that it is an attack roll and refers to it as an attack bonus. The Rules Compendium is more explicit that the only difference is the size modifier.
A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modified by your grapple modifier.. So the only difference mechanically is the size modifier. As a consequence, there is a 5% chance that grapple checks to hold fail.

Q: Is Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple", applied after every successful grapple check? Or is it an option for if you are in a grapple?
A: The wording does not establish that this is a new action, so it must be modifying action.

"...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."
implies that savage grapple damage is applied after successful grapple checks which would apply damage.

Q: What kind of action is Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple?
A: It is not an action, it is a modification to the damage done when inflicting damage via a grapple check.

Q: If you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple" on a grappled opponent while holding some other opponent with an improved grab limb, do you apply the natural attack damage from the holding limb?
A: No? Savage Grapple says "_all_ your natural weapons" while Improved Grab says "...can use its _remaining_ attacks against _other_ opponents." There is a rules conflict in which a DM could decide either way. The more intuitive and conservative choice is "no".

Q: If an opponent is grappled by a limb using improved grab, what happens when using a full attack action?
A: Every other natural attack can be executed against an opponent and you can perform iterative grapple attacks as well.

Q: When pinning an opponent, can you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple"?
A: Yes, in general. Savage Grapple modifies the damage done when inflicting damage with a grapple.


Variants:
For one more grapple, you could use Duskblade 1, Practiced Spellcaster, and Obtain Familiar with 2 flaws instead of Druid. An even higher grapple bonus is possible using straight barbarian (or Runescarred Berserker), although that loses Black Blood Cultist synergy.

Warblade 1 provides Iron Heart Surge (=end effects/conditions in an AMF), Steel Wind (= 2 attacks->improved grabs on a standard action), and Mountain Hammer (=deal damage->improved grab bypassing any hardness/DR). If you can pick up an L3 stance at first level, Crushing Weight of the Mountain adds ~37 points of damage to every improved grab attack. Otherwise, this costs a Martial Stance feat. This could be taken instead of Exoticist at the cost of Snowtiger Berserker and Battle Jump or with 2 flaws.

Multiattack and Improved Multiattack (+5 to hit with secondary natural weapons) and Knowledge Devotion (+1 or more to hit and damage) are obviously useful feats if they are available.

The half-Goristro (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) template acquired through a savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) when level buyoff (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) rules in effect could allow a huge character. By carefully alternating a savage progression and level buyoff, you should be able to acquire a level adjustment and pay it off every 3 class levels. However, this involves DM adjudication (around how a half-goristro savage progression works) and level buyoff rules to be in effect. Also, if you are using level buyoff, a savage progression half-goristro half-ogre half-minotaur goliath works better since it has a +36 strength modifier with powerful build and no racial hit dice. A half-goristro half ogre anthropomorphic baleen whale has only a +28 strength modifier.

[Khatoblepas]

The Antimagic Shackles in the Book of Exalted Deeds allow you to have an always on Antimagic Field (out to 5ft around you, but if it overlaps anyone, they're affected, and since grappling puts you in their space, it's useful without creating a dead zone your party can't cast spells into) for just 132,000gp. Since you'll be in an AMF, you won't really need many other magic items.

Instead of 10 additional levels of Barbarian, consider Black Blood Cultist, which advances Rage and gives you Savage Grapple, allowing you to hit with all your natural weapons with one grapple check. You already have Track and Improved Unarmed Strike, so the prerequisites will be nice and breezy for you.

[ShurikVch]

so there is no problem with using greater multigrab to keep 5 of them locked down while otherwise running around the battlefield.
Well, firstly: I wouldn't call moving at half speed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling) "running"
And secondly: how the heck you're grappling more than one opponent at once (excluding possibility they grappled you first)?



The Antimagic Shackles in the Book of Exalted Deeds allow you to have an always on Antimagic Field (out to 5ft around you, but if it overlaps anyone, they're affected, and since grappling puts you in their space, it's useful without creating a dead zone your party can't cast spells into) for just 132,000gp. Since you'll be in an AMF, you won't really need many other magic items.
AMF of Antimagic Shackles is 5'; Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, being Large, take 10'; AMF would be completely inside them - thus, mostly useless


To not be "all the critique, no suggestions": Fierce Grappler PrC (Dragon #295) at 2ns level able to hold and pin creatures up to two size categories larger than the character

[Khatoblepas]

AMF of Antimagic Shackles is 5'; Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, being Large, take 10'; AMF would be completely inside them - thus, mostly useless

Doesn't matter, when you're grappling someone, they are inside your space, and thus, within your AMF:


To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space.

and


When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space.

Even if the AMF only affects literally the 4 squares that make up your space, you're pulling people into that space.

[daremetoidareyo]

Consider VOP?

You can’t use magic anyway....

[ShurikVch]

Doesn't matter, when you're grappling someone, they are inside your space, and thus, within your AMF:

and

Even if the AMF only affects literally the 4 squares that make up your space, you're pulling people into that space.
The primary purpose of AMF there is to deny the FoM usage; if FoM is already in effect (or activates contingently), then you wouldn't be able to "pull the opponent into your space" - your grapple attempt would auto-fail

[Maat Mons]

Maybe be a Cleric with Initiate of Mystra so being in an Antimagic Field doesn't hinder you? And convince the other party members to play Clerics with Initiate of Mystra so the Field doesn't hinder them either?

[Anthrowhale]

The Antimagic Shackles in the Book of Exalted Deeds allow you to have an always on Antimagic Field (out to 5ft around you, but if it overlaps anyone, they're affected, and since grappling puts you in their space, it's useful without creating a dead zone your party can't cast spells into) for just 132,000gp. Since you'll be in an AMF, you won't really need many other magic items.


AMF of Antimagic Shackles is 5'; Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, being Large, take 10'; AMF would be completely inside them - thus, mostly useless
It's a 5' radius which exactly covers an ABW which has a 10' facing. It's good, but the 'cover yourself or cover your enemy aspect isn't quite as good as a 10' radius AMF.


Instead of 10 additional levels of Barbarian, consider Black Blood Cultist, which advances Rage and gives you Savage Grapple, allowing you to hit with all your natural weapons with one grapple check. You already have Track and Improved Unarmed Strike, so the prerequisites will be nice and breezy for you.
The -3 to grapple which BBC 10 gives you relative to Barbarian is somewhat painful, but it might be worthwhile if you are soloing.

Well, firstly: I wouldn't call moving at half speed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling) "running"
And secondly: how the heck you're grappling more than one opponent at once (excluding possibility they grappled you first)?

It's using Improved Grab (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab)


The creature has the option to ... simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it ... is not considered grappled itself...

Hence, normal movement is allowed.


To not be "all the critique, no suggestions": Fierce Grappler PrC (Dragon #295) at 2ns level able to hold and pin creatures up to two size categories larger than the character
Fierce Grappler looks plausibly interesting. Losing out on the strength bonus of Barbarian 11 could be worthwhile. The prereq feats are a bit painful, but maybe that could be handled with some levels of other classes.

[Elves]

Spirit bear totem at barbarian 1 grants improved grab in exchange for fast movement. No need for scaled horror.

Instead of taking duskblade 3, why not take ranger to 4 and use the urban companion ACF to save a feat? That also gives you PA to qualify for fierce grappler via strong arm style.


To not be "all the critique, no suggestions": Fierce Grappler PrC (Dragon #295) at 2ns level able to hold and pin creatures up to two size categories larger than the character
Seems like a no brainer then.


Instead of 10 additional levels of Barbarian, consider Black Blood Cultist, which advances Rage and gives you Savage Grapple
Neat ability since US is a natural weapon, and obviously good when combined with the repeating damage of Improved Grab.

That would give you monstrous humanoid 3/ranger 4/barbarian 1/fierce grappler 2/black blood cultist 10 which gets you greater rage at 20th.

OTOH, in favor of runescarred berserker 9-10, native AMF seems like a big plus if that's your whole strategy.

[Anthrowhale]

Maybe be a Cleric with Initiate of Mystra so being in an Antimagic Field doesn't hinder you?
"Cleric Initiate of Mystra can do it better" seems like a universal truth. I've avoided that here just for style reasons.


Spirit bear totem at barbarian 1 grants improved grab in exchange for fast movement. No need for scaled horror.
I believe all the spirit totems are Su, and Scaled Horror's Improved Grab is better than the default because it applies to same size rather than size-1.


Instead of taking duskblade 3, why not take ranger to 4 and use the urban companion ACF to save a feat? That also gives you PA (or free EWP if you later dip warblade).

This sounds good.


Seems like a no brainer then.

The 'choke out' ability at Fierce Grappler 5 is also pretty solid---Fortitude save at DC 15+grapple damage or unconscious for 1d3 rounds.

[Elves]

I believe all the spirit totems are Su, and Scaled Horror's Improved Grab is better than the default because it applies to same size rather than size-1.
Good catch.


The 'choke out' ability at Fierce Grappler 5 is also pretty solid---Fortitude save at DC 15+grapple damage or unconscious for 1d3 rounds.
That's a nice combo with Black Blood cultist, since their feature that stacks grapple damage will make the Fort DC unmakeable.

Drain away the 2 excess RHD and you can go:

humanoid 1/ranger 4/barbarian 1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5

If RHD draining is too cheesy, humanoid 3/ranger 2/barbarian 1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5 and either skip the familiar or find some other way to get it.

[Khatoblepas]

Drain away the 2 excess RHD and you can go:

humanoid 1/ranger 4/barbarian 1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5

If RHD draining is too cheesy, humanoid 3/ranger 2/barbarian 1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5 and either skip the familiar or find some other way to get it.

If you drain away the rhd and get that 4th level of ranger, you get to drop obtain familiar and take an octopus urban companion instead! I think that'll give you your +3 to grapple checks without having to load up on arcane spellcasting you can't use.

[Elves]

The second build is if RHD drain is off the table.

Arguably, the Black Blood cultist synergy there isn't necessary (and 8 levels is probably too high a price). At DC 15 + damage, it's not hard to get a DC few people will be able to make within AMF. And if your main KO strategy is going to be knock unconscious with that ability and coup de grace, the higher grapple damage from Black Blood cultist is devalued.

Unfortunately, subbing in runescarred berserker 8 leaves you 1 level short of AMF. It does get you greater rage. You could go runescarred 9-10 and just dip wizard or sorc 1 to get the familiar I guess.

[daremetoidareyo]

Can you shape soulmeld soulspark for alertness in an AMF

[Anthrowhale]

Black Blood Cultist and Fierce Grappler have a number of synergies. BBC gives lots of damage with a grapple check, FC turns that into unconscious, and then BBC provides a move-action coup de grace. The difficulty here is that BBC 8 + FC 5 + Scaled Horror 1 is 14 levels. Adding in ABW's 3HD leaves only 3 levels left.... I think I see a way to make it work, and the loss of 3 from the grapple check is probably worth the synergy.

[Kazyan]

The Balhannoth (MMIV, p.15) is worth mentioning here. If you can turn into 14 HD monsters via whatever method you prefer, you can use the Balhannoth's Antimagic Grapple ability. However, as written, that ability doesn't suppress active spells on the target, so it's not useful for just deleting FoM. (If that FoM comes from a magic item, though, it's gone.)

EDIT: If you expect to come across a Ring of Freedom of Movement, you could try investing heavily in Sleight of Hand to pluck off small magic items like that.

[Anthrowhale]

Can you shape soulmeld soulspark for alertness in an AMF

All soulmelds are suppressed in an AMF, right?

[daremetoidareyo]

All soulmelds are suppressed in an AMF, right?

I don’t know and it was easier to just float the idea than to look it up!

[Elves]

and then BBC provides a move-action coup de grace.
Yeah, that's beautiful.

I think I see a way to make it work, and the loss of 3 from the grapple check is probably worth the synergy.
Do you mean the stub I mentioned here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25086353&postcount=11) or do you see a better way?
In the stub at the bottom of that post you can just swap rgr 2nd with wiz 1st (fighter feat variant). Grants Power Attack just like the ranger level and also grants familiar.
RHD 3/rgr1/wiz1/bbn1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5.

[Anthrowhale]

Updated the OP. Grapple check declines to 49 and strength declines to 45 (boo), but you get the killer Improved Grab + Savage Grapple + Choke Out + Stranglehold combo.



Do you mean the stub I mentioned here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25086353&postcount=11) or do you see a better way?
In the stub at the bottom of that post you can just swap rgr 2nd with wiz 1st (fighter feat variant). Grants Power Attack just like the ranger level and also grants familiar.
RHD 3/rgr1/wiz1/bbn1/scaled horror 1/black blood cultist 8/fierce grappler 5.

I was thinking of something slightly different, but it's more feat intensive (requires 2 flaws). This one does not require flaws because it saves 3 feats relative to what I came up with, at the cost of a 1 lower grapple check. I'll mention it.

[daremetoidareyo]

Can we somehow self generate the continuous amf? Does ancestral relic do it?

[Anthrowhale]

The Balhannoth (MMIV, p.15) is worth mentioning here. If you can turn into 14 HD monsters via whatever method you prefer, you can use the Balhannoth's Antimagic Grapple ability.
The low strength ("only" 28) and item suppression makes this form appear difficult to use for effective grappling. Still, I'm sure you could manage between persistent bite of the werebear and persistent draconic polymorph. I've been avoiding spellcaster based solutions just for style reasons.


EDIT: If you expect to come across a Ring of Freedom of Movement, you could try investing heavily in Sleight of Hand to pluck off small magic items like that.
The AMF approach avoids needing both a high dexterity and a high strength.

[Elves]

This PrC synergy is a nice discovery. Good thread.

Do you have a build name for it?


This has an attack of only +33 and a grapple of only +48, but it requires 3 fewer feats (removing Practice Spellcaster and Obtain Familiar while changing Scribe Scroll for Power Attack).
IMO, +1 to hit and grapple is less valuable than 3 feats, flaws or no.

[Zarvistic]

Seeing this thread made me think about some way to defeat freedom of movement and while amf is probably better, still wanted to mention steal spell effect from the spellthief. It is capped by spellthief level + charisma, but I've seen you assume pretty high stats in these threads so perhaps something like 40-50 would be fair. That wouldn't require many spellthief levels I think and it would allow for some spellcasting too, especially with trickster acf. Could also use the charisma for something like a cleric dip and divine fury for a decent grapple bonus and perhaps start the fight with a whirling blade to remove freedom of movement and initiate the grapple with improved grab from afar. That last part also nice to counter anticipate teleportation with if that would be a concern.

Anyway, probably doesn't help much for an amf build, but figured might be worth considering if you hadn't yet.

[Psyren]

All soulmelds are suppressed in an AMF, right?


I don’t know and it was easier to just float the idea than to look it up!

Soulmeld-Magic Transparency (MoI 52) is indeed the default rule.

[Gruftzwerg]

So you think it is a good idea to beat magic users with a AMF focused grappling build?
Why not go for a grappling caster?^^

I would go for a Changeling Sorcerer or maybe even a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer if you want the extra HP in the early lvls. A small spell selection is enough to maintain the build.

May I introduce you to the SoRappLing (Sorcerer Grappler Changeling)

Sorcerer (or SBS) 5 / Incantrix 10 / Recaster 5 (lvling order can be changed to some degree)

5th lvl Sorcerer ACF: Domain Access (War)
Gives access to Divine Power that becomes a Sorcerer Spell known. This enables it for potential abuse with Arcane Fusion to bypass the 1/day limitation of Domain spells. Or we can Persist + extend it up to 48h duration.

Feats: (* Bonus from Incantrix)
Racial Emulation
Draconic Reservoir (Enables "Greater Draconic Rite of Passage" for +1 Sorcerer casting to compensate the loss from Recaster)
Quicken Spell
Selective Spell*
Widen Spell*
Extend Spell*
Persistant Spell*
Enspell Familiar
Rapid Metamagic
Sanctum Spell
Iron Will (prerequisite for Incantrix)

Spell Recommendation:
1st: Color Spray
2nd: Fearsome Grapple, Wings of Cover, Mirror Image
3rd: Fly, Ferocity of Sanguine Rage
4th: Polymorph, Greater Invisibility
5th: Arcane Fusion,
6th: AMF, Contingency
7th:
8th: Greater Arcane Fusion,
9th:

Recaster will add Giant Size & Body Oustide Body from the Wu-jen spell list to our Sorcerer Spells known.

The build can abuse the (Greater) Arcane Fusion trick (with Sanctuary Spell) to cast infinite 1st (1-4th) lvl spells with a single (G)AF cast. This can be abused to use all buff spells up to 4th lvl in a single round. Further infinite Color Spray ensures save buffing rounds against most enemies without SR.

Selective Spell AMF ensures that we are the only one that is having fun with magic here (most of the times). The class features of Recaster enable you to reshape (10ft > 15ft radius sphere) and widen it (30ft radius sphere). Note that AMF starts around your space due to size, since AFM emanates from "you" and not from the grid (center/intersection/corner) you are standing on.

Turn into a fearsome grappling monsters and deny others to use magic. Enough magical boosts for grappling (Poly, Giant Size > become colossal size, Fearsome Grapple) will ensure that you will have the upper hand in this contest of strength. And if that ain't enough, call your buddies with Body Outside Body to gang up on your enemy/ies.

edit: Did forgot about Iron Will and included it into the feat selection.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon #281 has the "Mind Lords of Talaron" article, which tells us a story of Talaire, which are kinda Humans from another world.
They have no magical knowledge (but not explicitly incapable like Karsites) and using psionics.
The notable part about them: they're enforcing Psionics Is Different rule - even in a setting with default 100% transparency
Thus, you would be able to be in the AMF while benefiting from Metamorphosis, Expansion, Grip of Iron, Form of Doom, and Claws of Darkness

[Anthrowhale]

Do you have a build name for it?

Suggestions? "Horrible Cultist Grappler" is my first attempt.

IMO, +1 to hit and grapple is less valuable than 3 feats, flaws or no.
I think you're right. Using the 3rd feat for Knowledge Devotion leaves us at 90% odds of attack hitting + Improved grab grapple succeeding vs. a Balor. That's probably good enough.


Seeing this thread made me think about some way to defeat freedom of movement and while amf is probably better, still wanted to mention steal spell effect from the spellthief.
This seems to synergize well with the Balhannoth since that deals with items but not precast effects.



Selective Spell AMF ensures that we are the only one that is having fun with magic here (most of the times).
Selective Spell AMF suppresses all spells within it's area as normal. It just means you don't blink out if you are an Incorporeal (undead by PHB or in general by RC).


Dragon #281 ... they're enforcing Psionics Is Different rule - even in a setting with default 100% transparency
Thus, you would be able to be in the AMF while benefiting from Metamorphosis, Expansion, Grip of Iron, Form of Doom, and Claws of Darkness
So this provides a good alternative to Initiate of Mystra, implying there are two caster-based approaches.

[Gruftzwerg]

Selective Spell AMF suppresses all spells within it's area as normal. It just means you don't blink out if you are an Incorporeal (undead by PHB or in general by RC).


Selective Spell AMF also leaves all buff spells on you untouched and allows you to even apply more buff spells on yourself while it is up. And the build is mostly about self buffs (except Color Spray which ain't the main selling point here).

[Anthrowhale]

Selective Spell AMF also leaves all buff spells on you untouched and allows you to even apply more buff spells on yourself while it is up. And the build is mostly about self buffs (except Color Spray which ain't the main selling point here).

I disagree here, and I believe RAW does as well. Selective Spell says:

You can modify an area spell so that it does not affect one designated creature within it's area. This says nothing about not affecting a spell (designated or not) within it's area. Selective Spell[You] Antimagic Field means that Antimagic Field does not affect you, but since AMF also affects spells directly (by suppressing them), it will continue to suppress all spells in effect on you.

[Gruftzwerg]

I disagree here, and I believe RAW does as well. Selective Spell says:
This says nothing about not affecting a spell (designated or not) within it's area. Selective Spell[You] Antimagic Field means that Antimagic Field does not affect you, but since AMF also affects spells directly (by suppressing them), it will continue to suppress all spells in effect on you.

I disagree with you disagreeing here..^^

Buff spells are rider effects that are normally attached to creatures and not to the grid. If Selective Spell AMF ignores you, it also ignores any rider effects on you. It can't effect you, which is a requirement to effect the buff effects on you.

[Quertus]

Two questions about the build: 1) what does it loose vs colossal opponents; 2) what classes would it take *after* level 20?


Soulmeld-Magic Transparency (MoI 52) is indeed the default rule.


Dragon #281 has the "Mind Lords of Talaron" article, which tells us a story of Talaire, which are kinda Humans from another world.
They have no magical knowledge (but not explicitly incapable like Karsites) and using psionics.
The notable part about them: they're enforcing Psionics Is Different rule - even in a setting with default 100% transparency
Thus, you would be able to be in the AMF while benefiting from Metamorphosis, Expansion, Grip of Iron, Form of Doom, and Claws of Darkness

It's nice to know that not only is "psionics is different" fully RAW compliant, but that there's content to enforce such. :smallbiggrin:

[Anthrowhale]

If Selective Spell AMF ignores you, it also ignores any rider effects on you.
Do you have some rules text supporting this?

[Anthrowhale]

Two questions about the build: 1) what does it loose vs colossal opponents;
There are two size limitation here:


Same size (=Large) or less allows improved grab (which enables multigrab).
Size+2 (=Gargantuan) or less allows a hold in a grapple.

Against a Colossal opponent, there aren't any grappling options unless you increase size. If level buy-off is on the table than a savage progression variant half-fiend or something like a half-minotaur Goliath with Powerful Build would get you there. It's not as big a problem as it might appear though, because Colossal opponents typically have a larger grapple bonus anyways. You dominate in the Large-or-less regime, struggle in the Huge or Gargantuan regime, and are completely outclassed in the Colossal regime.



2) what classes would it take *after* level 20?

Justiciar 8 has 'hog-tie', which has some potential. The tricky issue here is getting your Use Rope skill up high enough in an AMF. War Hulk also shines when you stop caring about BAB. Epic also has the 'Legendary Wrestler' feat which adds 10 to all grapple checks.

[Gruftzwerg]

Do you have some rules text supporting this?

I guess we can agree that a normal buff spell targets and is placed on creatures and not cast into the air.
Selective Spell breaks the "Line of Effect" to the chosen target.
Compare it with Total Cover, which also breaks LoS & LoE from AMF.

Spell Description > Targeting a Spell > Area (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm):

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
If total cover can shield you(r buffs) from the emanation, than selective spell can do this too. It denies AMF to target you and thus AMF can't affect the magic effects on you.

[Anthrowhale]

Selective Spell breaks the "Line of Effect" to the chosen target.

What rule says this?

[Gruftzwerg]

What rule says this?

Selective Spell:

You can modify an area spell so that it does not affect one designated creature within it's area.

[Elves]

Suggestions? "Horrible Cultist Grappler" is my first attempt.
The Whale Wrangler?
The Whale Wrestler?

I can imagine him out wrestling giant animals in the deep blue.

--

Was there a verdict on the best way to trigger AMF with items, barring custom spell item? Think that thread got dropped. Antimagic shackles potentially not working because of their radius. "Antimagic" search in MIC and SRD show nothing.

[Anthrowhale]

Selective Spell:
There's nothing about line of effect here.

Let A = not affected by AMF.

Let B = interrupt line of effect for AMF.

Let C = Selective Spell[You] AMF.

B causes A.

C causes A.

Is there some rule stating the only way to cause A is via B? If not, the logical implication that C causes B does not follow.

[Anthrowhale]

The Whale Wrangler?
The Whale Wrestler?

I can imagine him out wrestling giant animals in the deep blue.

Whale Wrestler sounds good. Edit: updated the OP with the name :-)



Was there a verdict on the best way to trigger AMF with items, barring custom spell item? Think that thread got dropped. Antimagic shackles potentially not working because of their radius. "Antimagic" search in MIC and SRD show nothing.

The Antimagic Torc (Underdark, page 73, 25K gp) seems like the easiest approach. That gives almost 2 hours of 10' AMF.

[icefractal]

Doesn't hurt to have as many methods as possible, but I think the shackles would work. Why would you assume their radius emanates from the center of your space? They're shackles, they're on your arms, which is what you're grappling with - it makes as much sense to say they're centered at the edge of your space closest to the person you're attacking.

Although that said, a wider AMF, while it has downsides, has upsides too, such as preventing contingent Teleport effects which are triggered "when someone tries to grab me".

[ciopo]

Question : what happens if you greater spell immunity the anti magic field?

[Gruftzwerg]

There's nothing about line of effect here.

Let A = not affected by AMF.

Let B = interrupt line of effect for AMF.

Let C = Selective Spell[You] AMF.

B causes A.

C causes A.

Is there some rule stating the only way to cause A is via B? If not, the logical implication that C causes B does not follow.

LoS and LoE are just mechanical terms to clarify and shorten rule text.

As soon as you can't affect a creature for whatsoever circumstances, you have lost your line of effect. It should be self explanatory that a LoE needs the target to be a legal target (which Selective Spell denies). If it's not a legal target you don't hit something > than it can't be a line (no endpoint) and becomes a ray passing through.

The buffs are placed on the creature. AMF needs to affect the creature to affect the buffs that are placed on the creature.

An emanating spell needs to hit things. This can be seen because of the Total Cover rule. TC protects you because the burst/emanation doesn't hit you.

A buff spell itself doesn't cover any space on the grid to be hit. It can only be targeted and hit if the creature it is applied on is targeted, hit & affected. Selective Spell breaks that "bridge".

[ShurikVch]

Magebane Manacles (Arms and Equipment Guide) have the same cost as Antimagic Shackles, but no 5' clause:

These sturdy masterwork manacles have an antimagic field that extends around anyone locked in them, including any magic items the captive might be carrying. Although expensive, they are commonly found in the prisons of metropolitan cities that are used to dealing with high-level troublemakers.

Other possible methods:
Third Eye beholder graft (Fiend Folio): CL 13 AMF in shape of 50' cone, 3/day; 165000 gp
Dust of Negation (Lords of Madness): 1-use AMF in 10' spread for 2 minutes (or 2 rounds - in windy conditions); 3300 gp
Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East): 9th level allow to use AMF as your Runescar

[Psyren]

It's nice to know that not only is "psionics is different" fully RAW compliant, but that there's content to enforce such. :smallbiggrin:

I don't know that I'd call Dragon Magazine content "fully RAW compliant." I'm sure there are tables that use Talaron Humans as justification for Psionics Are Different, but that doesn't mean it should be a default expectation either. (And even if they are, not sure how you'd extend their specific ability to Soulmelds either.)

[Anthrowhale]

Doesn't hurt to have as many methods as possible, but I think the shackles would work. Why would you assume their radius emanates from the center of your space? They're shackles, they're on your arms, which is what you're grappling with - it makes as much sense to say they're centered at the edge of your space closest to the person you're attacking.

Formally, I think you can designate any grid vertex as the 'center', and then each adjacent 5'x5'x5' cube is considered covered by AMF. The drawback of designating the non-center vertex is that you become vulnerable to magic targeting the uncovered parts and any large creatures that you have improved grab on might be able to use magic. The advantage, of course, is that you can AMF an improved grab target.

Question : what happens if you greater spell immunity the anti magic field?
Greater Spell Immunity provides spell resistance infinity which AMF ignores.

...
To advance your argument you need rules quotes.

Magebane Manacles (Arms and Equipment Guide) have the same cost as Antimagic Shackles, but no 5' clause:

Very nice. I'll add to the OP.


Other possible methods:
Third Eye beholder graft (Fiend Folio): CL 13 AMF in shape of 50' cone, 3/day; 165000 gp
Dust of Negation (Lords of Madness): 1-use AMF in 10' spread for 2 minutes (or 2 rounds - in windy conditions); 3300 gp
Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East): 9th level allow to use AMF as your Runescar
That's pretty comprehensive. I also recall that there was also a shield somewhere that will initiate an AMF.

[ShurikVch]

I also recall that there was also a shield somewhere that will initiate an AMF.
Bulwark of Antimagic (Draconomicon): AMF 1/day CL 11; 27580 gp

[Elves]

These sturdy masterwork manacles have an antimagic field that extends around anyone locked in them, including any magic items the captive might be carrying.
Sounds like it might just be around the creature wearing them, rather than being a full AMF centered on them. Otherwise what's the point of the second clause?

[Gruftzwerg]

To advance your argument you need rules quotes.


From the Glossary


Line of effect tells you whether an effect (such as an explosion) can reach a creature. Line of effect is just like line of sight, except line of effect ignores restrictions on visual ability. For instance, a fireball's explosion doesn't care if a creature is invisible or hiding in darkness.

Selective Spell denies the Spell to affect the target. As such it denies Line of Effect. AMF relies on LoE since Total Cover is able to break LoE with LoS. You are asking/arguing here how LoS and LoE works. I have the impression that you struggling with the very base concept of LoS and LoE here.

LoS: If you can't see it, you don't have LoS
LoE: If you can't effect it, you don't have LoE

If Selective Spell now disallows AMF to affect you, then AFM doesn't have LoE to you. No matter how you look at it, AMF need to affect "you" to affect spells on "you". And that is explicitly prevented by Selective Spell.

[icefractal]

So if you try to cast Charm Person on someone, but they were actually a Doppelganger (invalid target, would require Charm Monster) then you didn't have Line of Effect? Do you also retroactively lose LoE if they made the saving throw, or you failed to penetrate their SR?

You even quoted:

Line of effect is just like line of sight, except line of effect ignores restrictions on visual ability.

Line of sight doesn't change based on whether the target is vulnerable to the spell, and neither does line of effect. If you're facing ten Kobolds (in an open space, no obstacles) and cast Magic Missile at five of them, you still have Line of Effect to the five who you didn't target.

[Quertus]

I don't know that I'd call Dragon Magazine content "fully RAW compliant."

I didn't say it was.

I said that it was nice that not only X, but also Y. X and Y are independent variables here, each referring to different bits - perhaps even different posts (darn senility).

[Gruftzwerg]

So if you try to cast Charm Person on someone, but they were actually a Doppelganger (invalid target, would require Charm Monster) then you didn't have Line of Effect? Do you also retroactively lose LoE if they made the saving throw, or you failed to penetrate their SR?

You even quoted:


Line of sight doesn't change based on whether the target is vulnerable to the spell, and neither does line of effect. If you're facing ten Kobolds (in an open space, no obstacles) and cast Magic Missile at five of them, you still have Line of Effect to the five who you didn't target.

Yeah, in the chase of Charm Person on an invalid target you fail to establish a valid LoE. You can't target him and as such the spell fails.

You don't lose LoE retroactively. Just ask youself: Do you lose LoS just because your arrow failed to hit the target? (No)
As such you don't lose LoE just because you failed to overcome SR or because of a successful enemy save.

__________


Since Magic Missile ain't an AoE (area of effect) spell you have to choose targets from those you have LoS and LoE to.
A regular AoE spell like AMF doesn't choose targets. It "tries" to effect everything in its space.

LoS relies on sight. Imho "invulnerable to sight" would relate to "invisibility" (imho vulnerable is the wrong word here. "non-interaction" would be more fitting to describe the situation imho). LoE relies on whether you can affect the target or not. And Selective Spell can exclude a single target from being affected.

Compare Selective Spell for LoE with Invisibility for LoS. If a target is invisible to you, you have lost LoS to it and any visual lights will pass through him unhindered. The same way any attempt to affect yourself with Selective Spell AMF fails (if you've excluded yourself) and just passes through you unhindered (no LoE). Remember the quote saying that LoE may ignore visual restrictions (=may pass through visible things). AMF normally relies on LoS as can be seen on the Total Cover example (an explicit exception call out). If you break LoS, you also break LoE. But Selective Spell allows you to break LoE without breaking LoS to the target. As such, it can't target nor affect any buff spells that are attached to your body and just passes through to affect possible other targets.

[Zarvistic]

Yeah, in the chase of Charm Person on an invalid target you fail to establish a valid LoE. You can't target him and as such the spell fails.

You don't lose LoE retroactively. Just ask youself: Do you lose LoS just because your arrow failed to hit the target? (No)
As such you don't lose LoE just because you failed to overcome SR or because of a successful enemy save.

__________


Since Magic Missile ain't an AoE (area of effect) spell you have to choose targets from those you have LoS and LoE to.
A regular AoE spell like AMF doesn't choose targets. It "tries" to effect everything in its space.

LoS relies on sight. Imho "invulnerable to sight" would relate to "invisibility" (imho vulnerable is the wrong word here. "non-interaction" would be more fitting to describe the situation imho). LoE relies on whether you can affect the target or not. And Selective Spell can exclude a single target from being affected.

Compare Selective Spell for LoE with Invisibility for LoS. If a target is invisible to you, you have lost LoS to it and any visual lights will pass through him unhindered. The same way any attempt to affect yourself with Selective Spell AMF fails (if you've excluded yourself) and just passes through you unhindered (no LoE). Remember the quote saying that LoE may ignore visual restrictions (=may pass through visible things). AMF normally relies on LoS as can be seen on the Total Cover example (an explicit exception call out). If you break LoS, you also break LoE. But Selective Spell allows you to break LoE without breaking LoS to the target. As such, it can't target nor affect any buff spells that are attached to your body and just passes through to affect possible other targets.
But none of this is part of any rules tho. LoE is just a line that you either can or cannot trace. If you can trace it, you have LoE, if you cannot trace it, you don't have LoE. Method of tracing is exactly the same as for LoS, with the one given exception that you don't need to be able to see the target.

[Anthrowhale]

Sounds like it might just be around the creature wearing them, rather than being a full AMF centered on them. Otherwise what's the point of the second clause?
You may be right---it seems to read like it works similarly to the 'antimagic aura' spell. I modified the OP to just have a list of all the AMF options discussed.

[Gruftzwerg]

But none of this is part of any rules tho. LoE is just a line that you either can or cannot trace. If you can trace it, you have LoE, if you cannot trace it, you don't have LoE. Method of tracing is exactly the same as for LoS, with the one given exception that you don't need to be able to see the target.

LoE is just a term to shorten rule text for repetitive things.

Have a look at the "Total Cover" exception found in the "Area" section of general Spell Description rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm). It says that a burst/emanation can't affect targets with Total Cover. If you can't affect a target, you also don't have LoE to it. That is just the basic logic behind LoE, you check if you can affect something (according to the rules given, be it general rules or specific rules from the spell/ability). As such, the LoE check is involved in many abilities without an explicit call out that this is a LoE check.

E.g. Charm Person:
It relies on sight to target your desired victim (LoS). Otherwise you are not able to affect it (no LoE). While neither LoS nor LoE are explicitly called out in the text, their mechanics are still there. Since it uses those mechanics, people tend to use the abbreviation to speed up discussion (especially here in the forum). The same is the chase for me in our situation here. I'm sorry if this causes confusion for you, but it is a common thing in human communication that we like to use those abbreviations to speed up the communication.

Back to Selective Spell:
The feat allows you to specify a target that can't be "affected" by the spell (no LoE). I can easily see how it breaks the LoE to the target. It doesn't need to explicitly say " no line of effect" for that. "..can't be affected" is enough to count as "no LoE".

[icefractal]

LoE is just a term to shorten rule text for repetitive things.
As they say on Wikipedia - citation needed.

You're following the logic:
1) You can't affect a target that you lack LoE to.
2) Therefore LoE = being unable to affect a target.

That's not correct. Any more than saying that "No pets allowed means no parrots allowed. Therefore, 'pets' means the same thing as 'parrots'."

The rule, which you yourself have quoted, is this:

Line of effect tells you whether an effect (such as an explosion) can reach a creature. Line of effect is just like line of sight, except line of effect ignores restrictions on visual ability. For instance, a fireball's explosion doesn't care if a creature is invisible or hiding in darkness.
Line of sight is not "per spell". You either have LoS to someone or you don't, regardless of what you're casting or whether they'd be a valid target for it. I see zero evidence that LoE works differently, particularly considering it specifically says it works "just like" LoS.

[Zarvistic]

LoE is just a term to shorten rule text for repetitive things.

Have a look at the "Total Cover" exception found in the "Area" section of general Spell Description rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm). It says that a burst/emanation can't affect targets with Total Cover. If you can't affect a target, you also don't have LoE to it. That is just the basic logic behind LoE, you check if you can affect something (according to the rules given, be it general rules or specific rules from the spell/ability). As such, the LoE check is involved in many abilities without an explicit call out that this is a LoE check.

E.g. Charm Person:
It relies on sight to target your desired victim (LoS). Otherwise you are not able to affect it (no LoE). While neither LoS nor LoE are explicitly called out in the text, their mechanics are still there. Since it uses those mechanics, people tend to use the abbreviation to speed up discussion (especially here in the forum). The same is the chase for me in our situation here. I'm sorry if this causes confusion for you, but it is a common thing in human communication that we like to use those abbreviations to speed up the communication.

Back to Selective Spell:
The feat allows you to specify a target that can't be "affected" by the spell (no LoE). I can easily see how it breaks the LoE to the target. It doesn't need to explicitly say " no line of effect" for that. "..can't be affected" is enough to count as "no LoE".
Now you made more stuff up.. none of this is in the rules. Anyway, I doubt I can change your mind, but at least consider that rules don't go both ways most of the time. If a rule says that you can't affect a target because you don't have LoE, the opposite isn't immediately true. Sometimes it can be, but most of the rules don't work that way.

[Endarire]

What about grafts to grand you extra natural attacks?

What about maneuvers and stances to grant you... something else?

You need +1 effective size category so you can grapple whales - colossal creatures! (Whale fight!)

[Anthrowhale]

What about grafts to grand you extra natural attacks?
I believe that's maxed out with Tail+Gore+Bite+2 claws.

The Deepspawn feat would provide 2 extra natural attacks and grapple+2, but with prerequisites it's a 3-feat tax, which seems to high.


What about maneuvers and stances to grant you... something else?

Suggestions? There is one feat (Knowledge Devotion) which could be used for something else.


You need +1 effective size category so you can grapple whales - colossal creatures! (Whale fight!)
Whales default to merely gargantuan, but it's a fair point that they can reach colossal.

It looks like Powerful Build doesn't actually work, so the only method I see for doing this is via a half-Goristro (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) template acquired through a savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) with level buyoff (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) rules in effect. By carefully alternating a savage progression and level buyoff, you should be able to acquire a level adjustment and pay it off every 3 class levels. However, this involves DM adjudication (around how a half-goristro savage progression works) and level buyoff rules to be in effect.

I'll add some discussion of variants.

[Gruftzwerg]

As they say on Wikipedia - citation needed.

You're following the logic:
1) You can't affect a target that you lack LoE to.
2) Therefore LoE = being unable to affect a target.

That's not correct. Any more than saying that "No pets allowed means no parrots allowed. Therefore, 'pets' means the same thing as 'parrots'."

The rule, which you yourself have quoted, is this:

Line of sight is not "per spell". You either have LoS to someone or you don't, regardless of what you're casting or whether they'd be a valid target for it. I see zero evidence that LoE works differently, particularly considering it specifically says it works "just like" LoS.

&


Now you made more stuff up.. none of this is in the rules. Anyway, I doubt I can change your mind, but at least consider that rules don't go both ways most of the time. If a rule says that you can't affect a target because you don't have LoE, the opposite isn't immediately true. Sometimes it can be, but most of the rules don't work that way.

I don't need to rely on the term LoE to explain how Selective Spell works. It is just a term to shorten communication (if the other side gets the intention..):

"Selective Spell excludes a single target from the effect. As such, Selective Spell AMF can't affect any buff spells on the target (since those are attached to creatures most of the time and not to the grid)."
___

If it can't affect the target, than there is no Line/(Link) of Effect that transfers the magic/effect from the point of origin to the target. The magic just passes through him (or is blocked if a rule for that is given like "total cover", but that is not the chase in this situation). By using the no LoE term, I just try to show the mechanic behind the presented rule. But the presented rule is enough to explain how it works RAW as shown above.

[ShurikVch]

I believe that's maxed out with Tail+Gore+Bite+2 claws.
Aboleth Tentacle:

An aboleth tentacle typically replaces an arm or forelimb on the grafted creature, though sometimes it is attached just above a forelimb or below an arm.
Up to +4 tentacles (by 50000 gp apiece)
Buffeting Wings (Races of the Dragon) give two wing slams (while not in fly); 100000 gp
Depending on interpretation of Warshaper, you may grow, say, shocking touch (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim)


It looks like Powerful Build doesn't actually work
Stonebone Creature template:

Powerful Build: A stonebone creature grows thick, heavy bones.
The physical stature of the stonebone creature lets it function in many ways as if it were one size category larger. Whenever a stonebone creature is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the stonebone creature is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to it. A stonebone creature is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect it. A stonebone creature can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. Its space and reach remain those of a creature of its actual size. The benefits of this special quality stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
A Colossal creature gains no benefit from this special quality.
Other upsides of the template: +4 Str and Con
Downsides: -10 land speed, -20 swim speed, and -4 on Dex, Climb and Swim checks; LA: +2

[Anthrowhale]

Aboleth Tentacle:
Up to +4 tentacles (by 50000 gp apiece)
This is very good. It also plausibly means +2 for multigrabs using the tentacles getting us up to a round +50 grapple bonus, and it has a nasty rider with Aboleth transformation. Edit: altogether, this pushes the Fort-or-unconscious DC to ~210, which is well past "enough".



Buffeting Wings (Races of the Dragon) give two wing slams (while not in fly); 100000 gp
This is one of the 'new grafts' which implies removing everything except for up to 4 other dragon grafts. It's not a good tradeoff.



Depending on interpretation of Warshaper, you may grow, say, shocking touch (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim)

We definitely don't have room for Warshaper.



Stonebone Creature template:

Powerful build applies for grapple checks (giving a +4 bonus) but not for qualification to grapple (which is not an opposed check).

[ShurikVch]

Powerful build applies for grapple checks (giving a +4 bonus) but not for qualification to grapple (which is not an opposed check).
How about the "considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size" part?

[Zarvistic]

How are you calculating your save DC btw? With your high bab you have 4 iteratives I think, so it seems like the damage and DC would be a lot higher than the 200 you mention, no?

If I am not wrong, it seems like the black blood cultist levels are kinda doing nothing. Yea, a lot more damage but nobody is making the DC even if those levels aren't there. Perhaps an idea to shore up defenses using those 8 levels instead of going for the overkill.

[Anthrowhale]

How about the "considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size" part?
This seems to be defensive-only, and you can already use a grapple roll against colossal opponents to escape a hold. It's only on offense when imposing a hold (or, using improved grab) that opponent size limits available options.

How are you calculating your save DC btw? With your high bab you have 4 iteratives I think, so it seems like the damage and DC would be a lot higher than the 200 you mention, no?

The DC is from fierce grappler and is 15+damage. You don't get iteratives with natural attacks, but with 9 natural attacks I'm not complaining. Furthermore, if you've multigrabbed 9 opponents the damage applies to all of them which is fairly potent. In other words, the total damage is proportional to the square of the number of natural attacks.


If I am not wrong, it seems like the black blood cultist levels are kinda doing nothing. Yea, a lot more damage but nobody is making the DC even if those levels aren't there. Perhaps an idea to shore up defenses using those 8 levels instead of going for the overkill.
Without Black Blood Cultist, you lose the squaring effect of multigrab + BBC 8 and the damage would decline to ~23.5, making the save vs. unconscious ~38. That's potent but sometimes survivable. For example, a Balor has Fort+22 implying succeeding 25% of the time. Black Blood Cultist also provides a move action Coup de Grace, which is highly complementary to knocking unconscious.

Perhaps an important question is: what would a good defensive alternative be?

[Zarvistic]

This seems to be defensive-only, and you can already use a grapple roll against colossal opponents to escape a hold. It's only on offense when imposing a hold (or, using improved grab) that opponent size limits available options.

The DC is from fierce grappler and is 15+damage. You don't get iteratives with natural attacks, but with 9 natural attacks I'm not complaining. Furthermore, if you've multigrabbed 9 opponents the damage applies to all of them which is fairly potent. In other words, the total damage is proportional to the square of the number of natural attacks.

Without Black Blood Cultist, you lose the squaring effect of multigrab + BBC 8 and the damage would decline to ~23.5, making the save vs. unconscious ~38. That's potent but sometimes survivable. For example, a Balor has Fort+22 implying succeeding 25% of the time. Black Blood Cultist also provides a move action Coup de Grace, which is highly complementary to knocking unconscious.

Perhaps an important question is: what would a good defensive alternative be?
Ah ok, well I was thinking you could just use 4 regular iterative attacks in a follow up turn to make grapple checks instead of attacking so that'd still be 4 times the damage and a DC of over 100.

As is tho, if you hit a target with 9 of your attacks, you're doing 81 times the damage or is that wrong? Assuming each improved grab would be a succesful grapple to trigger savage grapple. This makes me think, what about getting the constrict ability somehow, so the 9 initial attacks would already do damage through improved grab/constrict for the purpose of fierce grappler DC.

For defensive options, maybe something with monk. Something like monk 3/shintao monk 4 seems a good start and gives 4 good bonus feats without having to meet prerequisites, evasion, wisdom ac bonus, bit of speed, immunity to stun, sleep, slow and +7 to saves. If shintao monk doesn't seem worth it, then monk could be just 2 raging monk levels instead, which gives you same as your barb level as well as 2 bonus feats which you took in your build anyway, better saves, ac bonus and evasion. The freed up feats could be used for like extra rage and mad foam rager. I'm sure there's more options available but this is what came to mind right now.

[Anthrowhale]

Ah ok, well I was thinking you could just use 4 regular iterative attacks in a follow up turn to make grapple checks instead of attacking so that'd still be 4 times the damage and a DC of over 100.
There are two distinct synergies here, so perhaps it's better to discuss them separately.

Scaled Horror's Improved Grab works with unarmed and natural attacks and offers an option where you are not considered grappled but the improved grab attacked-and-grappled creature is with the natural attack used.
Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple converts all natural attacks into grapple damage on a successful grapple check.

Scaled Horror 1+feats allows you to greater multigrab 9 opponents and then Black Blood Cultist allows you to damage each of them with all 9 natural attacks. Technically, this isn't an attack (i.e. no minimum 5% chance of a miss, no chance of a critical hit), since it's just grapple check, then roll lots of damage.


Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple converts all natural attacks into grapple damage.
Fierce Grappler's Choke Out DC keys off grapple damage after any full round in which you pin an opponent.
Black Blood Cultist's Strangelhold provides a move-action Coup de Grace with a bite attack.

This loop could operate once every other round via Full Attack(Improved Grab, Pin (in place of an iterative), Savage Grapple (in place of an iterative)), wait until next round, Choke Out DC activates based on savage grapple damage, Move action(Stranglehold bite for coup de grace).

Losing out on Fierce Grappler may make more sense than losing Black Blood Cultist since that leaves one of these synergies intact.


As is tho, if you hit a target with 9 of your attacks, you're doing 81 times the damage or is that wrong? Assuming each improved grab would be a succesful grapple to trigger savage grapple. This makes me think, what about getting the constrict ability somehow, so the 9 initial attacks would already do damage through improved grab/constrict for the purpose of fierce grappler DC.

It looks like you could just apply more iteratives to generate more damage in the second loop. There are Yuan-Ti tail grafts that enable constrict, but they only work with small (losing a tail attack) or medium (losing a tail attack and giving up on legs) creatures.



For defensive options, maybe something with monk. Something like monk 3/shintao monk 4 seems a good start and gives 4 good bonus feats without having to meet prerequisites, evasion, wisdom ac bonus, bit of speed, immunity to stun, sleep, slow and +7 to saves. If shintao monk doesn't seem worth it, then monk could be just 2 raging monk levels instead, which gives you same as your barb level as well as 2 bonus feats which you took in your build anyway, better saves, ac bonus and evasion. The freed up feats could be used for like extra rage and mad foam rager. I'm sure there's more options available but this is what came to mind right now.
AMF is a pretty strong defense which obviates many/most sources of sleep/slow/evasion, but saves vs poison, stun, and fear inside of an AMF are pretty relevant.

[Zarvistic]

I don't think I follow that loop. If you just full attack with your natural weapons, isn't that giving you 9 improved grabs and so 81x the damage? Is it possible to choose not to move at step 4 of the grapple and so not be in a grapple between these attacks?

I suppose that still leaves BBC 8 but like you said maybe fierce grappler can go. Maybe its great as is tho, just the crazy high numbers on damage or DC seem like overdoing it in that area perhaps.

[Anthrowhale]

I don't think I follow that loop. If you just full attack with your natural weapons, isn't that giving you 9 improved grabs and so 81x the damage? Is it possible to choose not to move at step 4 of the grapple and so not be in a grapple between these attacks?
The wording for Savage Grapple is a bit ambiguous.

...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check.
Is that a rider to all grapple checks or an option when making a grapple check? It's not entirely clear and I've been bouncing between the interpretations. At the moment, I'm thinking it's a rider, in which case it would apply to every improved grab (yikes).



I suppose that still leaves BBC 8 but like you said maybe fierce grappler can go. Maybe its great as is tho, just the crazy high numbers on damage or DC seem like overdoing it in that area perhaps.
I agree. It seems we could drop either Black Blood Cultist or Fierce Grappler (but perhaps not both), and have a reasonably effective grappling build.

[Zarvistic]

The wording for Savage Grapple is a bit ambiguous.

Is that a rider to all grapple checks or an option when making a grapple check? It's not entirely clear and I've been bouncing between the interpretations. At the moment, I'm thinking it's a rider, in which case it would apply to every improved grab (yikes).


I agree. It seems we could drop either Black Blood Cultist or Fierce Grappler (but perhaps not both), and have a reasonably effective grappling build.
It seems like it's a rider to me too. With that in mind, what do you think about scorpions grasp? It doesn't seem to have the limitation of size so could get those grapple checks in up to two sizes up.

Also noticed huntsman druid could get both the track feat and the octopus using urban companion and some extras.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Mohrg's Tongue (Libris Mortis)? It's natural attack, yes? So, tongue grab?..

[Elves]

Is the damage from Savage Grapple replacing or adding to the normal US damage you deal with a successful grapple? Or was the writer thinking of US as a natural weapon, even though it typically isn't?

[ShurikVch]

Powerful build applies for grapple checks (giving a +4 bonus) but not for qualification to grapple (which is not an opposed check).
I wouldn't be so sure about it:

In some cases, an action is a straight test of one's ability with no luck involved. Just as you wouldn't make a height check to see who is taller, you don’t make a Strength check to see who is stronger.
If "height" is an opposed check, then why not size?

[Anthrowhale]

It seems like it's a rider to me too. With that in mind, what do you think about scorpions grasp? It doesn't seem to have the limitation of size so could get those grapple checks in up to two sizes up.
There is no Greater Multigrab for Scorpion's Grasp, so it seems marginal. As an alternative, you can just initiate a grapple the basic improved grapple way, which seems only marginally worse.


Also noticed huntsman druid could get both the track feat and the octopus using urban companion and some extras.
Interesting. The other reason why Ranger is chosen is for Hide/Move Silently. They could be bought cross-class, but that would delay Scaled Horror until ECL 8 rather than ECL 6, which seem pretty undesirable. You could use:

Huntsman Druid: Urban Companion[Octopus] + Track
Survivalist Fighter (Dragon #310): Power Attack + Hide/MS
City Brawler Barbarian (Dragon #349): Rage + Improved Unarmed Strike

This has 2 fewer skill points, 2 worse reflex save, and a wisdom bonus to AC. That might be a worthwhile tradeoff? Is there any other way to get Power Attack + Hide/MS with BAB+1?


How about the Mohrg's Tongue (Libris Mortis)? It's natural attack, yes? So, tongue grab?..
Apparently, yes, since it's a secondary attack and only natural attacks can be secondary attacks. It's also a touch attack, which is pretty interesting. The paralyzation won't work often at high levels, but the improved grab rider is potent. Strength damage doesn't apply? (Because there is no base damage to add it to?)

Is the damage from Savage Grapple replacing or adding to the normal US damage you deal with a successful grapple? Or was the writer thinking of US as a natural weapon, even though it typically isn't?
I'm thinking "adding" at the moment, but it's rather ambiguously worded.


If "height" is an opposed check, then why not size?
"you wouldn't make a height check" suggests that height is not a check at all. If it's not a check, then it's not an opposed check.

[Zarvistic]

How about this: duid 1/barbarian 1 and then straight into BBC. Qualify for multigrab through bear totem but take scorpions grasp for actual use in the amf and 2 sizes up instead of only equal. Power attack or stunning fist no longer needed and there's 7 free levels after BBC 8.

[Anthrowhale]

How about this: duid 1/barbarian 1 and then straight into BBC. Qualify for multigrab through bear totem but take scorpions grasp for actual use in the amf and 2 sizes up instead of only equal. Power attack or stunning fist no longer needed and there's 7 free levels after BBC 8.

There's a problem here:

...you may hold a creature one or more sizes smaller than you with your off hand....
Losing the ability to limb grapple large creatures seems like a very substantial loss.

[Elves]

I'm thinking "adding" at the moment, but it's rather ambiguously worded.
To be fair it's not relevant to your improved grab attacks anyway.


Interesting. The other reason why Ranger is chosen is for Hide/Move Silently. They could be bought cross-class, but that would delay Scaled Horror until ECL 8 rather than ECL 6, which seem pretty undesirable.
Hide/MS aren't an issue since Black Blood cultist has them.

ranks with 10 int:
RHD - 2 surv, 2 EA, 1 Hide, 1 MS
Bbn - 4 surv
Druid - 2 nature, 2 surv
Cultist - 4 Hide
Cultist - 4 MS
>scaled horror

vs.

RHD - 2 EA, 2 Hide, 2 MS
Bbn - 4 surv
Rgr - 3 Hide, 3 MS
Scaled Horror - 4 surv
Wiz 1 - 2 nature
>cultist

Delaying scaled horror by 2 levels isn't great but the freed level is better from a build perspective.

This has another advantage: you can replace bbn 1 with raging monk 1 to get Stunning Fist as well as IUS. Since it's as barbarian, makes sense for Cultist levels to also stack with it. Maybe not strictest RAW but it's the kind of leap I would feel comfortable making. Nvm, leaves you short 1 BAB.

What the best full BAB dip is for the druid build is up for debate. Warblade/crusader has the advantage of maneuvers being Ex. The dip could get you crushing weight of the mountain stance for an extra 2d6+1.5*str damage on your grabs. Warblade also gives your EWP versatility. But have to sub PA for Kdev.

[Anthrowhale]

To be fair it's not relevant to your improved grab attacks anyway.

Pinning down exactly what's going on was pretty difficult, so I tried to write things out Q&A style and in the process changed my mind on some questions. Do you (dis)agree with any of the below? And what's the reasoning?

Q: If you use the limb hold option ("use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent") with improved grab, can you use grapple options afterwards?
A: No. When using a limb hold, you are not grappling so the "if you are grappling" options are irrelevant. The only limitation is: "can use its _remaining_ attacks against other opponents".

Q: When using a limb hold option with improved grab, how many grapple checks can the creature initiate on held opponents?
A: None, since the creature initiating the improved grab is not grappling. It can however respond with grapple checks against attempts to escape (for example), and these cause damage on success as per the text of improved grab.

Q: Does a grapple check roll of '1' result in automatic failure? Or '20' in more damage?
A: No. A grapple check is not an attack roll even though it can be used in place of an attack and is based off of BAB. Note that the 'attack your opponent' option does use an attack roll (with a -4 penalty).

Q: Is Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple", applied after every successful grapple check? Or is it an option for if you are in a grapple?
A: It's ambiguous, but a conservative choice is that it's an option.

Reasoning: The wording is highly ambiguous. "...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."
A rider to successful grapple checks would say: "...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on every successful grapple check."
An option when grappling would be: "... you may deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."

Either could the be intention, but the insertion of 'may' is less disruptive than the change of 'a' to 'every' and it results in less absurdity.

Q: What kind of action is Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple?
A: Maybe an iterative grapple check? The text says very little here. A grapple check is required, so it could be an iterative, a move action, a standard action, or a full round action. The closest analog in terms of mechanics and outcomes is the "damage your opponent" option for a grapple check which uses an iterative.

Q: If you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple" on a grappled opponent while holding some other opponent with an improved grab limb, do you apply the natural attack damage from the holding limb?
A: No? Savage Grapple says "_all_ your natural weapons" while Improved Grab says "...can use its _remaining_ attacks against _other_ opponents." There is a rules conflict in which a DM could decide either way. The more intuitive and conservative choice is "no".

Q: If an opponent is grappled by a limb using improved grab, what happens when using a full attack action?
A: Every other natural attack can be executed against an opponent and you can possibly perform iterative attacks.

Q: When pinning an opponent, can you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple"?
A: A Pin is made in place of an (iterative) attack so if a Savage Grapple also takes an iterative attack, it can be done when the BAB is 6+.



RHD - 2 surv, 2 EA, 1 Hide, 1 MS

I believe the only class skills are listen, spot, and swim. I was imagining maxing out Listen and Spot, then using the retraining rules once Hide/MS becomes an option. Hence, the cumulative ranks would look like:

RHD 3: 4 Spot, 4 Listen, 4 Swim
Ranger 1: 5 Hide, 1 MS, 2 Knowledge[Nature], 2 Survival, 4 Spot, 4 Listen, 0 Swim
Barbarian 1: 5 Hide, 5 MS, 2 Knowledge[Nature], 6 Survival, 4 Spot, 0 Listen, 0 Swim
Scaled Horror 1: 5 Hide, 5 MS, 2 Knowledge[Nature], 8 Survival, 4 Spot, 0 Listen, 0 Swim, 1 Escape Artist(cross class)
Cultist 1:


You could instead:

RHD 3: 2 Hide (cc), 0 MS(cc), 4 Spot, 4 Listen
Huntsman Druid 1: 2 Hide (cc), 0 MS(cc), 0 Spot, 4 Listen, 2 K[Nature], 6 Survival
Barbarian 1: 2 Hide (cc), 0 MS(cc), 0 Spot, 4 Listen, 2 K[Nature], 8 Survival, 1 Escape Artist (cc)
Cultist 1: 5 Hide, 5 MS, 0 Spot, 0 Listen, 2 K[Nature], 8 Survival, 1 Escape Artist (cc)
Cultist 1: <needed for BAB>
Scaled Horror 1




What the best full BAB dip is for the druid build is up for debate. Warblade/crusader has the advantage of maneuvers being Ex. The dip could get you crushing weight of the mountain stance for an extra 2d6+1.5*str damage on your grabs. Warblade also gives your EWP versatility. But have to sub PA for Kdev.

The text of warblade specifies that the first stance must be 1st level. Other ideas?

[Zarvistic]

Exoticist fighter for the ewp and another feat could be good?
There's of course 2nd barbarian level too for improved trip, as an alternative to grapple. Especially if knock-down can fit in anywhere.

Also I think dragon totem for the barbarian 1 level for the blind-fight feat might be more useful than the 10 extra speed.

[Elves]

The text of warblade specifies that the first stance must be 1st level. Other ideas?
I think this is overstated. It says "you begin play" with knowledge of a 1st-level stance. That seems to be written with the intent of introducing a player to the class with the assumption that they start at 1st level; you're not "beginning play" if you enter the class at a higher level. There's no reason stances shouldn't follow the general rule for maneuvers and multiclassing.

I'll read into the grapple/pin stuff when I have a moment.

[Anthrowhale]

I added Mohrg's Tongue to the OP. 10 improved grabs is pretty impressive.


Exoticist fighter for the ewp and another feat could be good?
Yeah, exoticist would free up another feat, although I'm not sure how to use that yet. Extra Rage is ok, I guess.



There's of course 2nd barbarian level too for improved trip, as an alternative to grapple. Especially if knock-down can fit in anywhere.
The prone condition doesn't seem to be as good as the grappled condition, particularly grappled-in-an-AMF?


Also I think dragon totem for the barbarian 1 level for the blind-fight feat might be more useful than the 10 extra speed.
ABW grants blindsight 60' in atmosphere or 120' in the water, so blind-fight seems marginal, particularly in an AMF where silence can't be imposed easily.


I think this is overstated. It says "you begin play" with knowledge of a 1st-level stance. That seems to be written with the intent of introducing a player to the class with the assumption that they start at 1st level; you're not "beginning play" if you enter the class at a higher level. There's no reason stances shouldn't follow the general rule for maneuvers and multiclassing.

It's not super-clear, but I could imagine DMs ruling against and it seems good to avoid rules controversies.

There are of course many other good things that Warblade brings to the table. The loss of Knowledge Devotion is painful though as that bonus to hit makes a big difference in success rates for improved grapple.

[Maat Mons]

Adding the Mohrg's Tongue seems to argue for a different name for the build (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaUkQzsdT78&t=603s).

[Anthrowhale]

The two strategies aren't meshing well in my understanding. Consider: combat starts and Improved Grab for a limb hold is applied to all enemies.

At this point, there are two options.
(a) Convert one limb hold to a grapple, and apply savage grapple (possibly repeatedly). This does substantial damage, although it's reduced depending on the limbs holding enemy creatures. This requires 8 class levels.
(b) Convert one limb hold to a grapple, pin, add some damage, apply chokeout (Fierce Grappler 5), and then stranglehold (Black Blood Cultist 5) for the kill. This requires 10 class levels.
Both of these are good combos, but the synergy of (a) with (b) is limited since (b) works well enough without (a).

Method (b) is more limited, since it requires opponents vulnerable to critical hits and to strangulation.

[Elves]

Adding the Mohrg's Tongue seems to argue for a different name for the build (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaUkQzsdT78&t=603s).
lmao, +1ing this


Q: If you use the limb hold option ("use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent") with improved grab, can you use grapple options afterwards?
A: No. When using a limb hold, you are not grappling so the "if you are grappling" options are irrelevant. The only limitation is: "can use its _remaining_ attacks against other opponents".
So your concern is that while using improved grab's "hold" option, you can't pin your opponent (and thus can't use FG chokehold) because you don't count as grappling?

If true, this would also mean you can't move and bring your grappled target with you or take the damage your opponent action in a special hold (or use opponent's weapon, or break another's pin).

That would be disappointing, but looks possible. I'll list the arguments I could see against it:

- The wording of Multigrab is, "When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack...". Thus, you are still grappling them when using a special hold, even if you aren't considered grappled yourself -- so maybe you can still take grapple actions against them.

- If your target continues to be grappling, it must be true that you are, quote, "maintaining a grapple" against them, even if you aren't considered grappled yourself. So again, maybe you can take grapple actions against them.

- When the book says "it isn’t considered grappled itself. Thus, the creature isn’t denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents", 'thus' could be comprehensive of the effects.

- After all, there's a difference in the language: "grappling" versus being considered "grappled [yourself]". Maybe that's meant as a differentiation that only excludes you from the downsides of grappling.

- Certain actions, like damage your opponent, say they can be performed "while grappling". But "You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling" doesn't mean you can only cast a spell while grappling. So maybe even if you aren't "yourself grappled", you can still take those actions if you are maintaining a grapple against someone. Since the conditions under which you can or cannot take those special actions is never explicitly stated -- "while grappling", in context, only means that they are among the actions you can take while grappling -- the common sense interpretation might be that you can take them against any target you are grappling, which per the first 2 points, we know you are.

- The action we're talking about, Pin, doesn't even say "while grappling". It has no conditionality attached. This could strengthen the argument for a common sense reading -- you can do it to a target that you're grappling, which per Multigrab we know you are.

I'm not sure these are convincing, but I will say that from an RAI standpoint, it's unclear to me whether the hold option is just supposed to be a grapple penalty in exchange for being exempt from the listed downsides, or is also supposed to mean you can't take special grapple actions.


Alternate angle: maybe if you choose to hold, you can switch "to conducting the grapple normally" during the grapple? No rule for this, but a stab in the dark.


Q: Does a grapple check roll of '1' result in automatic failure? Or '20' in more damage?
A: No. A grapple check is not an attack roll even though it can be used in place of an attack and is based off of BAB. Noe that the 'attack your opponent' option does use an attack roll (with a -4 penalty).
Possibly disagree. PHB: "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll...your attack bonus on a grapple check is..."

RC: "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modifi ed by your grapple modifier. ...Use [your special size modifier] in place of the normal size modifi er you use when making an attack roll"

It sounds like it is a form of attack roll, but with a different modifier.


Q: Is Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple", applied after every successful grapple check? Or is it an option for if you are in a grapple?
A: It's ambiguous, but a conservative choice is that it's an option.

Reasoning: The wording is highly ambiguous. "...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."
A rider to successful grapple checks would say: "...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on every successful grapple check."
An option when grappling would be: "... you may deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."

Either could the be intention, but the insertion of 'may' is less disruptive than the change of 'a' to 'every' and it results in less absurdity.
Disagree. That it's an independent special grapple action doesn't seem plausible. It doesn't say you "can" or "may" deal damage. And it isn't tagged as an independent (ex) ability, suggesting it's modifying an existing action.

Since you already deal damage when you establish a grapple, it's clear that this feature applies then. What's unclear is whether it replaces or augments the normal US damage you deal, and whether it also applies any time you make a successful grapple check.

Re the first question, I don't know.
Re the second, the partial phrasing of the ability and its lack of an ex tag suggest to me that it's modifying the damage you deal with a grapple, not introducing a new source of damage, so my ruling would be it applies when you successfully establish a grapple as well as when you use Damage Your Opponent, but not when you wouldn't normally deal damage with a grapple check.


A: It's ambiguous, but a conservative choice is that it's an option.
My view is that a conservative reading is the one that asks less of the text. That sometimes means the permissive reading, sometimes the restrictive one. Being more restrictive doesn't inherently make a reading more textually conservative.

As you note, reading it as its own action requires you to speculate on what kind of action it is, since it's not ex or su and doesn't have an action to default to. When an interpretation made in the name of textuality requires extratextual adjudication that's a red flag (another example (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25074264&postcount=57) in the current Iron Chef thread).


It's not super-clear, but I could imagine DMs ruling against and it seems good to avoid rules controversies.
The much touted "1st level stance" phrase doesn't even specify class level. I just think it's overblown. If you are able to take the constrict stance, do you think that's worth a level?

[Anthrowhale]

So your concern is that while using improved grab's "hold" option, you can't pin your opponent (and thus can't use FG chokehold) because you don't count as grappling?
As an example, yes. You also would not be able to execute any other grapple option (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling).


If true, this would also mean you can't move and bring your grappled target with you

This, at least, is specifically allowed.

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. ... It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.



- The wording of Multigrab is, "When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack...". Thus, you are still grappling them when using a special hold, even if you aren't considered grappled yourself -- so maybe you can still take grapple actions against them.

- If your target continues to be grappling, it must be true that you are, quote, "maintaining a grapple" against them, even if you aren't considered grappled yourself. So again, maybe you can take grapple actions against them.

These are convincing to me.

One thing that I hadn't appreciated: Multigrab is only for hold checks, so other grapple checks still suck up a -20 penalty.



- The action we're talking about, Pin, doesn't even say "while grappling". It has no conditionality attached. This could strengthen the argument for a common sense reading -- you can do it to a target that you're grappling, which per Multigrab we know you are.

The only way to create a pin is as a grappling option.



RC: "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modifi ed by your grapple modifier. ...Use [your special size modifier] in place of the normal size modifi er you use when making an attack roll"

The RC wording seems fairly convincing here. That implies that when grappling 10 opponents, there is about an even chance one of them will escape per round.



Disagree. That it's an independent special grapple action doesn't seem plausible. It doesn't say you "can" or "may" deal damage. And it isn't tagged as an independent (ex) ability, suggesting it's modifying an existing action.

Since you already deal damage when you establish a grapple, it's clear that this feature applies then. What's unclear is whether it replaces or augments the normal US damage you deal, and whether it also applies any time you make a successful grapple check.

Re the first question, I don't know.
Re the second, the partial phrasing of the ability and its lack of an ex tag suggest to me that it's modifying the damage you deal with a grapple, not introducing a new source of damage, so my ruling would be it applies when you successfully establish a grapple as well as when you use Damage Your Opponent, but not when you wouldn't normally deal damage with a grapple check.

Interesting---I hadn't thought of that interpretation.

The Improved Grab special ability has similar wording:

...each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.
Presumably, the same logic would apply?



The much touted "1st level stance" phrase doesn't even specify class level. I just think it's overblown. If you are able to take the constrict stance, do you think that's worth a level?
The value of constrict seems dependent on the applicability of savage grapple.

[Anthrowhale]

Q&A v2, thanks to Elves. Any other feedback? (I added a couple questions as well.)

Q: If you use the limb hold option ("use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent") with improved grab, can you use grapple options afterwards?
A: Yes. The text for a limb hold is ambiguous about whether or not this is just a 'hold' or grappling, but text elsewhere indicates that grappling is occurring. For example, Multigrab says:

When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack...

Q: When using a limb hold option with improved grab, how many grapple checks can the creature initiate on held opponents?
A: It depends on the option used, but for grapple checks used in place of an attack, as many as base attack bonus allows (up to 4) each round are possible.

Some of these actions take the place of an attack... If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Q: When using improved grab, which grapple checks cause damage?
A: All successful grapple checks. Improved Grab says:

... each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

Q: When using the (Greater) Multigrab feat, which grapple checks are improved by 10 (or 20)?
A: Only grapple checks to maintain a hold. This means using other grapple options when using a limb hold are substantially more difficult.

Q: Does a grapple check roll of '1' result in automatic failure? Or '20' in more damage?
A: Yes. The rules say it is 'like a melee attack roll' without stating that it is an attack roll and refers to it as an attack bonus. The Rules Compendium is more explicit that this only difference is the size modifier.
A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modified by your grapple modifier.. So the only difference mechanically is the size modifier. As a consequence, there is a 5% chance that grapple checks to hold fail.

Q: Is Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple", applied after every successful grapple check? Or is it an option for if you are in a grapple?
A: The wording does not establish that this is a new action, so it must be modifying action.

"...you deal damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons ... on a successful grapple check."
implies that savage grapple damage is applied after successful grapple checks which would apply damage.

Q: What kind of action is Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple?
A: It is not an action, it is a modification to the damage done when inflicting damage via a grapple check.

Q: If you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple" on a grappled opponent while holding some other opponent with an improved grab limb, do you apply the natural attack damage from the holding limb?
A: No? Savage Grapple says "_all_ your natural weapons" while Improved Grab says "...can use its _remaining_ attacks against _other_ opponents." There is a rules conflict in which a DM could decide either way. The more intuitive and conservative choice is "no".

Q: If an opponent is grappled by a limb using improved grab, what happens when using a full attack action?
A: Every other natural attack can be executed against an opponent and you can perform iterative grapple attacks as well.

Q: When pinning an opponent, can you use Black Blood Cultist's "Savage Grapple"?
A: Yes, in general. Savage Grapple modifies the damage done when inflicting damage with a grapple.

[Elves]

The only way to create a pin is as a grappling option.
To clarify the argument, which I don't necessarily endorse: all RC says about the special grapple options is

while you’re grappling, you can perform only the fol-lowing maneuvers.
It says while grappling you're limited to the following maneuvers (which includes some, like casting a spell, that aren't grapple-specific) but doesn't explicitly say what lets or does not let you take special grapple actions. So the common sense conclusion might be you can use them against a target you're grappling, which we know you are.


The Improved Grab special ability has similar wording
Looks like it was updated in RC to only apply to the damage your opponent action:


If the creature does notconstrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successiverounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack thatestablished the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage aswell (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
vs

Whenever the creature makes a successful grapple check to deal damage, it deals the damage indicated for the natural weapon that it used to make the improved grab*. If the creature also has the constrict ability, it deals damage from the constrict attack in addition to damage dealt by the natural weapon used to grab.
*is this replacing or adding to US damage? seems to be replacing since no "also" or "in addition".

While these aren't strictly contradictory they seem to be replacing each other, and I have to admit the RC version is more reasonable. But it's certainly nice if your target risks killing themselves by trying to escape.

--

The Rending Constriction feat suggests that you can have multiple holds on a single target, but I don't know if that's supposed to be a special feat-only option. Could ramp up your single target damage by a lot.

[Anthrowhale]

Thanks, I updated the OP with a v3 Q&A.

I'm still debating options for an alternate full-BAB class level. Warblade is tempting, regardless of the Crushing Weight of the Mountain debate.

[Anthrowhale]

I shifted the build to use Druid/Barbarian/Warblade, as suggested. Snowtiger Berserker also seems particularly useful, since it's a pounce that works in an AMF. This results in the loss of 2 feats (Knowledge Devotion and Improved Multiattack) which seems acceptable (barely...) against a hypothetical Balor.

I still find the idea of a character that charges in and makes 10 opponents suffer Grappled-in-an-AMF in the first round of combat pretty hilarious :smallsmile: Thanks all for the help and ideas here.

[Zarvistic]

Came across something old I had compiled, martial arts. One of them, stonegrind wrestling, says you are considered one size larger for the purpose of grapple checks. Seems like a big buff for the build, but needs 4 feats: IUA, PA, endurance and great fortitude.

Ranger 4 does a lot for this: track, endurance, PA, IUA, octopus but no rage and thats 4 levels, too many maybe?
Since you have monster HD tho, proto-creature template provides rage and strength bonus. I believe the source is similar license as dragon magazine too.

Not sure if you're done with this, but just another idea.

[Elves]

Came across something old I had compiled, martial arts. One of them, stonegrind wrestling, says you are considered one size larger for the purpose of grapple checks. Seems like a big buff for the build, but needs 4 feats: IUA, PA, endurance and great fortitude.
Cool find. The build already has PA, and checking this thread: (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840)

Great Fortitude - Belt of Endurance / 10.000 gp / Arms and Equipment Guide
Shadahkar's Swift Wind (Sandals) - 8.350 gp / Dragon 324 p. 75

That lets you grapple Colossal which brings this build to a nice point (and the item dependency isn't a problem: if they're lost/dispelled you're just back where you started, so it's pure upside).

[Anthrowhale]

Three more feats is a steep cost, but the benefit of being able to go colossal is great, as is the +4 bonus to hit.

In terms of feats that could be sacrificed:

Multiattack could be sacrificed. The 4 tentacles attacks are a solid primary attack mode, so taking an extra -3 to hit with the secondaries is ok. (The tongue attack is even a touch attack).
Snowtiger Berserker is quite nice for the full attack on charge but it doesn't seem absolutely necessary.


That leaves things one feat short. Instead of Warblade, you could go Exoticist Fighter to gain two feats (Power attack + EWP[Scorpion Claws]). This sacrifices Iron Heart Surge and either access to or easy access to Crushing Weight of the Mountain. IHS and CWotM are great, but an extra +4 to grapple and the ability to take on some colossal opponents seems better. Given this, I'm thinking:

ABW 3/Druid 1/Barbarian 1/Exoticist 1/Black Blood Cultist 1/Scaled Horror 1/Black Blood Cultist 7/Fierce Grappler 5
1. Endurance
3. Great Fortitude
Druid 1. Track
Barbarian 1. Improved Unarmed Strike
Exoticist 1. EWP[Scorpion Claws]
Exoticist 1. Power Attack
6. Stonegrind Wrestling
Black Blood Cultist 2. Improved Grapple
9. Multigrab
12. Greater Multigrab
15. Improved Unarmed Strike
18. Snow Tiger Berserker.

Thoughts?

[Elves]

Note that martial arts like Stonegrind Wrestling don't have to be taken as feats. They're free benefits if you qualify.

Do you see it as a problem to just get Great Fort/Endurance from items as per above?

[Anthrowhale]

Note that martial arts like Stonegrind Wrestling don't have to be taken as feats. They're free benefits if you qualify.
Ah, that's a game-changer---it means we could keep Warblade while dropping Multiattack and Snowtiger Berserker.

Do you see it as a problem to just get Great Fort/Endurance from items as per above?
Item-based approaches don't work in an AMF.

[Elves]

Ah, duh.

How was exoticist granting 2 feats anyway?


ABW 3/Druid 1/Barbarian 1/Black Blood Cultist 2/Scaled Horror 1/Warblade 1/Black Blood Cultist 7/Fierce Grappler 5
1. Endurance
3. Great Fortitude
Druid 1. Track
Barbarian 1. Improved Unarmed Strike
6. Power Attack
Black Blood Cultist 2. Improved Grapple
9. Multigrab
12. Greater Multigrab
15. Stunning Fist
18. EWP[Scorpion Claws]
So are you happy with this as the final lineup? Snow Tiger Berserker or Multiattack could still be a decent trade for warblade 1st. OTOH they slot right in as flaw choices for games where flaws are used, empowering the build but not affecting core competency.

Plus, warblade is a natural fit for this build because the maneuvers are Ex.

I think this is nice work Anthrowhale. Grapples up to colossal and deals high damage without any items except the ones to create AMF in the first place. So also has a lot of spare WBL.

[Anthrowhale]

How was exoticist granting 2 feats anyway?

Exoticist 1 grants proficiency with 4 exotic weapons and a fighter feat from a limited list which includes Power Attack.

It looks like Pugilist 1 actually grants 3 relevant feats: Endurance, Improved Unarmed Strike, and your choice of Power Attack, Great Fortitude, or Stunning Fist. However, the Improved Unarmed Strike is redundant with City Brawler Barbarian (which is essentially required for rage access).



So are you happy with this as the final lineup?

It's close, but not making full use of exoticist.



I think this is nice work Anthrowhale. Grapples up to colossal and deals high damage without any items except the ones to create AMF in the first place. So also has a lot of spare WBL.

This has gone well beyond what I started with using the many suggestions from you and others, so thanks for that :smallsmile:

[Elves]

It looks like Pugilist 1 actually grants 3 relevant feats: Endurance, Improved Unarmed Strike, and your choice of Power Attack, Great Fortitude, or Stunning Fist. However, the Improved Unarmed Strike is redundant with City Brawler Barbarian (which is essentially required for rage access).
While it sucks to lose the +3 grapple from urban companion, druidic avenger ACF grants rage for AC. Hence:

RHD 3/Pugilist fighter 1/Druid 1/Black Blood Cultist 2/Scaled Horror 1/Warblade 1/Black Blood Cultist 6/Fierce Grappler 5
1. Power Attack
3. EWP[Scorpion Claws]
Druid 1. Track
Pugilist 1. Improved Unarmed Strike, Endurance, Great Fortitude
6. Multigrab
Black Blood Cultist 2. Improved Grapple
9. Greater Multigrab
12. Stunning Fist
15. Multiattack
18. Snowtiger Berserker

I admit I'm biased toward the familiar for flavor reasons -- anthropomorphic whale with octopus pet. But may be worth fitting all the feats in.

[Anthrowhale]

While it sucks to lose the +3 grapple from urban companion, druidic avenger ACF grants rage for AC. Hence:

The primary concern here is that the +3 grapple bonus really matters when wrestling colossal creatures. Examples CR 20- colossal creatures:

Colossal Baleen Whale: 59 (CR 15)
Colossal Cachalot Whale: 59 (CR 16)
Colossal Kraken: 73
Colossal Purple Worm: 70
Colossal Nightcrawler: 54
Colossal Roc: 68
Tarrasque: 81

With the Octopus, we can reach a grapple bonus of 54, the bare minimum vs. colossal opponents.

At the moment, I'm thinking:
ABW 3/Druid 1/Barbarian 1/Exoticist 1/Black Blood Cultist 1/Scaled Horror 1/Black Blood Cultist 7/Fierce Grappler 5
1. Endurance
3. Great Fortitude
Druid 1. Track
Barbarian 1. Improved Unarmed Strike
Exoticist 1. EWP[Scorpion Claws]
Exoticist 1. Power Attack
6. Snow Tiger Berserker.
Black Blood Cultist 2. Improved Grapple
9. Multigrab
12. Greater Multigrab
15. Stunning Fist
18. Multiattack

This provides Grapple +54 = 16(BAB)+17(Strength)+4(Scorpion Claws)+4(Improved Grapple)+3(Octopus Familiar)+4(Large)+4(Stonegrind Wrestling)+2(aboleth tentacle strength bonus)

The +54 bonus also means that you are at +34 for non-hold grapple checks against large- opponents held by limb. That's not terrible against the Balor (Grapple+36) or a Pit Fiend (Grapple+35).

You could trade Exoticist for Warblade, losing Pounce and Multiattack. Alternatively, you could trade them for CWotM directly via Martial Study/Martial Stance.

[Zarvistic]

Would it be worth giving up fierce grappler to get a bigger grappling bonus?
Waker of the beast prc gives a size increase that comes with the +8 str for it and an ability at level 4 that adds +2 strength. The apothesis is su, but don't think that matters cause it's just a thing that happens once and is done. Needs PA and toughness for feats, but toughness could come from bear totem by losing fast movement.

[Anthrowhale]

Where is Waker of the Beast?

Another thought is that Battle Jump combines well with some source of wings and Snow Tiger Berserker.

[Zarvistic]

Where is Waker of the Beast?

Another thought is that Battle Jump combines well with some source of wings and Snow Tiger Berserker.
Dragon 296.
Dragonborn works for the wings, but losing racial stuff for it might not be worth I guess.

[Anthrowhale]

Dragon 296.
It grants a +10 grapple bonus, which is remarkably nice. But there are a few issues.


The -6 to Int (-8 with Half-ogre) is pretty severe. This could be partially offset with the Primordial Giant template (Str-4, Int+4) since Half-ogre qualifies via Giant-blood. That's probably enough on an operation basis, since the losses to Int would come at the end of the build.
It looks like Strength of the Beast and Tarrasque Apotheosis will go away in an AMF given the 'Ex-Walkers' text.
The 'you must constantly work to awaken the Tarrasque' aspect seems crippling for any player character.




Dragonborn works for the wings, but losing racial stuff for it might not be worth I guess.
There's always the Feathered Wings graft.

[Zarvistic]

With a size increase the fierce grappler provides only the choke ability. Two sizes up would not matter anymore and its providing no grapple bonus while taking a feat slot to qualify.

I feel like there has got to be a size increase somewhere else, if not waker.

How about replacing stunning fist with touchstone: sunken city of pazar? Gets you that final +1 size so you can grapple colossal once a day. Not like you would need to grapple those monsters often most likely. Frees up 5 levels if the choke isn't super important.

[Elves]

Problem with Sunken City is it doesn't stack with similar abilities, which probably includes all virtual size increases (like Stonegrind Wrestling).

If that's not an issue, the higher order ability lets you use it for 8 hours 4x before recharging, and there's plenty of spare WBL for a greater teleport item to the site (assuming there was a greater teleport item printed). Because of elegance concerns maybe not this as the main build, but would be an interesting variant to free up 5 levels.

[Anthrowhale]

Touchstone abilities are supernatural by default, and hence will not work in an AMF.

Is Battle Jump cumulative with Stonegrind Wrestling?

You are considered one size category larger for the purposes of grapple checks.

...you are treated as one size category larger than normal for the first grapple check...

[Elves]

I'd say yes.
If you can apply them in favorable order, Battle Jump > Stonegrind leaves no ambiguity because Stonegrind has no "as normal" clause.
If they apply Stonegrind > Battle Jump, depends if "normal" means "otherwise" or "your natural size"; first reading flows better for me.
The problem with Sunken City was the explicit no stacking clause.

[Maat Mons]

I'm not sure it's desirable to be larger than Large, at least on a permanent basis. A Large creature can squeeze through a 5-foot wide hallway. But a Huge creature can't. If you go any larger than Large, you'd need to use magic to make yourself able to fit in some pretty common locations. And using magic means you can't have your Antimagic Field up. And that means you can't grapple anyone with Freedom of Movement.

On the other hand, if you can't grapple Colossal creatures without size-altering magic, that's much less limiting. Innately-Colossal creatures don't tend to have spellcasting ability of wear magic items. So you can probably turn off the Antimagic Field without worry. Spellcasters who Shapechange into Colossal creatures are probably going to have Freedom of Movement, but they're going to stop being Colossal as soon as you get them inside of your Antimagic Field, so you'll only be grappling a Medium creature anyway.

[Elves]

The Tarrasque class was the only one offering a non-virtual size increase. The current combo is Large base > Stonegrind Wrestling, treated as Huge > fierce grappling lets you grapple up to two sizes larger.

If Battle Jump stacks, you could get rid of ABW and grapple Colossal creatures with battle jumps only. -4 str (orc vs whale), but could be -2 if you take 2 barb levels for greater rage.

[Anthrowhale]

If Battle Jump stacks, you could get rid of ABW and grapple Colossal creatures with battle jumps only. -4 str (orc vs whale), but could be -2 if you take 2 barb levels for greater rage.
Half-Ogre becomes an LA+1 template if the base character is medium, so it's -8 Str and you max to 19 levels.

The argument against stacking is that a size modifier (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#sizeModifier) is an enumerated modifier for which the stacking rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking) say:

...modifiers...do not stack if they have the same type...
Technically, Battle Jump and Stonegrind Wrestling provide a modifier to a size modifier rather than a size modifier, but that seems a bit to pedantic at the moment.

[Elves]

I don't think that's pedantic. By virtually increasing your size, they let you benefit from a correspondingly higher size modifier. You aren't stacking any numeric bonuses. If there's a pedanticism it's that them stacking is premised on Stonegrind lacking an "as normal" clause, which, however, it does.

The q about battle jump is whether worthwhile -- 1 attack out of 10+, on charge only. But increases odds vs Colossal.

Speaking of odds grappling Colossal -- remember none of these creatures can cast FOM, so in practice you can often benefit from enlarge person/magic items/ etc. Among what you cited, only need AMF to counter nightmares etherealness.

[Anthrowhale]

I don't think that's pedantic. By virtually increasing your size, they let you benefit from a correspondingly higher size modifier. You aren't stacking any numeric bonuses. If there's a pedanticism it's that them stacking is premised on Stonegrind lacking an "as normal" clause, which, however, it does.

The q about battle jump is whether worthwhile -- 1 attack out of 10+, on charge only. But increases odds vs Colossal.

These both seem like fair points.


Speaking of odds grappling Colossal -- remember none of these creatures can cast FOM, so in practice you can often benefit from enlarge person/magic items/ etc. Among what you cited, only need AMF to counter nightmares etherealness.
A Kraken and a Nightcrawler are smart enough to seek out FOM if that is known advantageous. The primary FOM+large types are dragons though. At CR 19 or 20, the grapple bonuses are:

Black Wyrm +58
Very Old Blue +49
Very Old Green +48
Old Red +52
Wyrm White +57
Ancient Brass +50
Very Old Bronze +49
Very Old Copper +47
Old Gold +55
Old Silver +46

Of these Black, Green, and White lack native FoM access. They could acquire access relatively easily via either Dragonblood Spell-Pact or an item.

I updated the OP with Stonegrind Wrestling and Exoticist, putting Warblade in the variants section.

The primary issue I see at the moment is: How can magic be used to enhance into a super-grappler vs. the very high grapple bonus opponents that don't use FoM?

[Anthrowhale]

In terms of buffs for a FoM-free colossal opponent, it seems best to start with items. Are there any other relevant items?

Belt of Giant Strength+6 enhancement to strength 36Kgp.
Gloves of the Titan's Grip (MIC 107) provide a +8 enhancement bonus for 7 rounds 3/day with no activation. Only 7k gp, so having several seems good.
These increase the grapple bonus to 65.

The next easiest are spells that can be cast on another person.
Investiture of the Barbed Devil (minute/level) to provide a +4 profane bonus to grapple checks.
Investiture of the Pit Fiend (minute/level) raises BAB by 4.
Together with the items, these raise grapple to 73 which is enough to compete with everything except the Tarrasque that is CR20-.

The last source is personal-only spells. These are most easily cast by a spellcaster using Magic Jar to possess the Whale Wrestler.

Fiendform (minute/level, Wizard 5) changes type to outsider.
Draconic Polymorph[Titan] (round/level, Wizard 5) provides a base strength of 51 and huge size (i.e. +9 total to grapple) It also (presumably) causes the loss of all grafts.
Bite of the Werebear (round/level, Druid 6, Wizard 7) provides a +16 enhancement bonus to strength. (+5 to grapple over the belt)
Fearsome Grappler (round/level, Wizard 2) provides a +8 circumstance bonus to grapple checks.
Crawling Darkness (minute/level, Cleric 5) provides a +4 competence bonus to grapples.
Righteous Might(round/level, Cleric 5) increases size by 1 with the commensurate +8 strength bonus
Giant Size (10 rounds, Wu Jen 7) makes size colossal with a +32 strength bonus (presumably based on size)

Combined with the previous, this raises the grapple bonus by +54=+9(DP[T])+5(BotW)+8(FG)+4(CD)+8(RM)+20(GS) to 127 which overwhelms pretty much anything. (Some DMs may nerf Giant Size because it seems to be built off an expectation that the spellcaster is medium size. Even so, this is much more than is necessary.)

[Anthrowhale]

I revamped the OP again, this time with notes about using magic items and spells. The Whale Wrestler can compete with:

Any SRD creature that has access to freedom of movement natively inside an antimagic field.
Any other SRD creature except the Tarrasque using a few magic items.
The Tarrasque with the addition of a few spells from a friendly wizard or cleric.


This seems like a fairly satisfying place to leave the build unless someone has further ideas.