Knowledge Cleric - so what deity?

[KorvinStarmast]

I admit to being flummoxed. I have put together a half elf Cleric(Knowledge Domain) (note: this is a featless game, and a no multiclass game, standard array). I am at a loss as to which deity to pick for him. Background is the PHB Criminal(Spy).

Nothing intuitive arises in my brain today. (Maybe I just need more coffee). As I pondered the 'Forces and Philosophies approach' (F&P) per the DMG (p. 10-13) I drew a blank.

Campaign Background:
The DM isn't doing an FR campaign.
We are heading straight into Curse of Strahd at level 1, session 1. Deity could be from Greyhawk (the last campaign I did with this DM was in Greyhawk) but I think 'any setting' might be a better starting point. I have not yet written the 3-5 sentence back story. Where this cleric is from, setting wise, might be informed by the answer to this 'what deity' question.

Loremeiseters of the Playground, Who are your top three picks for a deity (or a good fit for F&P) for the Knowledge domain from any D&D setting? (Include Dark Sun)

While I have come to prefer 'Forces and Philosophies' for divine stuff as a DM, "Knowledge" doesn't have the same ring to my ear as Life, Fire, Death, Nature, Truth, etc in the F&P scheme.
I am drawing a blank, which is a bit unusual for me.
Sciento Tridens, male, half elf cleric, Knowledge
S 14 D 12 C 14 I 10 W 16 Ch 10
Languages: Common, Elvish, Draconic, Infernal, Celestial
Skills: Arcana, History, Religion, Insight, Perception, Stealth, Deception, Medicine,
Tools: Thieves Tools, (Gaming Set =Dice)

[Nhym]

From the big three of pantheistic western culture mythology:

Greek/Roman: Athena/Minerva, goddess of a lot of things, but most relevant is wisdom. A different kind of knowledge but still counts. Alternatively, a case can be made for Hermes.

Norse: Odin, god of knowledge. Easiest pick.

Egyptian: Thoth, god of knowledge and wisdom and the scribe of the gods.

[LordShade]

For an off-the-beaten-path pick, go with Avani from the Birthright campaign setting. Goddess of the sun, knowledge, reason, and magic. LN alignment.

Another unusual pick would be something from Planescape. Ilsensine is a god of knowledge, for example.

Final thought--a god of libraries, universities, and conventional, organized learning has a different feel from a god of hidden, esoteric, or forbidden knowledge, which in turn is different from a god of discovery, experimentation and invention. Which does your character gravitate more towards?

[KorvinStarmast]

Greek/Roman: Athena/Minerva, goddess of a lot of things, but most relevant is wisdom. A different kind of knowledge but still counts. I was thinking P&F "Wisdom" as the core concept, so those fit.

Norse: Odin, god of knowledge. Easiest pick. True, but I am not sure of Norse pantheon is an option, will check with DM.
Egyptian: Thoth, god of knowledge and wisdom and the scribe of the gods. Aah, the DM does refer to Crom, and Thoth Amon IIRC was in RE Howard's Conan books; this might be a really good fit.

... Avani from the Birthright campaign setting. Goddess of the sun, knowledge, reason, and magic. LN alignment. Ooh, will take a peak, haven't looked at my Birthright stuff in ages. EDIT: hmm, the linkage to the Khinasi is an interesting fit, since my guy is of olive complexion / hazel eyes already, with dark hair. Might be the fit that if I want to go all in on Birthright. (But that leaves me with 'why are you here?' to still answer.

Another unusual pick would be something from Planescape. Ilsensine is a god of knowledge, for example. Nice suggestion, thanks, EDIT but the mind flayer link isn't a good fit for me.

a god of libraries, universities, and conventional, organized learning has a different feel from a god of hidden, esoteric, or forbidden knowledge, which in turn is different from a god of discovery, experimentation and invention. Which does your character gravitate more towards? god of hidden, esoteric, or forbidden knowledge sounds like a better fit since I have the infernal, celestial and draconic languages, and because a spy is supposed to go and "find out this thing that nobody wants found out" as a matter of course.

Good leads, thanks.

[LordShade]

Hidden, esoteric knowledge...

- Ruornil (also BR)
- The Shadow or the Traveler from Eberron
- Gilean (DL is not obscure, but the neutral gods tend to get ignored)
- Maybe Wee Jas or Celestian

This is also kinda cool:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_knowledge_deities

Anyway, good luck. Sounds like a fun character.

[Mobius Twist]

When it comes to spies and knowledge-seekers, I take the FR spectrum from Oghma, Mask, and Vecna, depending on how 'srs bizness' you want to go. A devotee of Oghma will charm his way into the right places, Mask will sneak in, and Vecna just won't let anyone stand in the way of grabbing (and then holding and NOT sharing) a good secret.

[jojosskul]

When it comes to spies and knowledge-seekers, I take the FR spectrum from Oghma, Mask, and Vecna, depending on how 'srs bizness' you want to go. A devotee of Oghma will charm his way into the right places, Mask will sneak in, and Vecna just won't let anyone stand in the way of grabbing (and then holding and NOT sharing) a good secret.

Came here to second Vecna. I was looking for a knowledge cleric deity recently and he came up when I looked for DnD related gods of secrets. I think he's in Greyhawk as well. Thoth came up on that same search. I do love how this thread has become something of a repository for Knowledge Cleric deities. Makes a good reference.

[KorvinStarmast]

Vecna for me isn't a deity (I go back to the Eye and Hand as a thing whose previous owners is some vague historical magic user) but the posts suggesting why have merit based on later editions.

Mask might fit the character theme pretty well, on the spy side, but it's a bit specific on thief over cleric. (And game is not FR centric.
Celestian. Tempting. Boccob might also be a good fit if arcane knowledge is the 'knowledge' being sought.

[Lunali]

Personally, I've always been a fan of Ioun as my choice for a god of knowledge.

[whateew]

Being a spy, I like the that your cleric might be some sort of archeologist-priest, who's ancient God calls upon their worshippers to uncover long lost and possibly even forbidden secrets. You don't need to go with a standard do-good cleric, you could go for a more greyish one, worshiping maybe an old giant god or a longlost god from a far star. No idea about specific god's, but that might be a fun direction.

[Temperjoke]

I don't know if you've looked through Van Richten's Guide yet, but one of the lands of Ravenloft is Har'Akir, where the Darklord of that realm replaced the egyptian pantheon with his own stand-in deities and killed all the priests of the old ones. Clerics of these deities get their powers from the Dark Powers. Your character could be one of the worshippers of the old gods that escaped Har'Akir somehow. The replacement ones weren't given specific domains, but since you're doing Curse of Strahd you could still be getting power via the Dark Powers, while thinking it's your own gods.

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally, I've always been a fan of Ioun as my choice for a god of knowledge. There's a fine idea, and as my DM has a lot of Greyhawk lore base, that might be most excellent.
I don't know if you've looked through Van Richten's Guide yet, but one of the lands of Ravenloft is Har'Akir, where the Darklord of that realm replaced the egyptian pantheon with his own stand-in deities and killed all the priests of the old ones. Clerics of these deities get their powers from the Dark Powers. Your character could be one of the worshippers of the old gods that escaped Har'Akir somehow. The replacement ones weren't given specific domains, but since you're doing Curse of Strahd you could still be getting power via the Dark Powers, while thinking it's your own gods. Another fine suggestion; and I do have the book. Need to pore over that and see if it's a good fit.

[LudicSavant]

I admit to being flummoxed. I have put together a half elf Cleric(Knowledge Domain) (note: this is a featless game, and a no multiclass game, standard array). I am at a loss as to which deity to pick for him. Background is the PHB Criminal(Spy).

Nothing intuitive arises in my brain today. (Maybe I just need more coffee). As I pondered the 'Forces and Philosophies approach' (F&P) per the DMG (p. 10-13) I drew a blank.

Campaign Background:
The DM isn't doing an FR campaign.
We are heading straight into Curse of Strahd at level 1, session 1. Deity could be from Greyhawk (the last campaign I did with this DM was in Greyhawk) but I think 'any setting' might be a better starting point. I have not yet written the 3-5 sentence back story. Where this cleric is from, setting wise, might be informed by the answer to this 'what deity' question.

Loremeiseters of the Playground, Who are your top three picks for a deity (or a good fit for F&P) for the Knowledge domain from any D&D setting? (Include Dark Sun)

While I have come to prefer 'Forces and Philosophies' for divine stuff as a DM, "Knowledge" doesn't have the same ring to my ear as Life, Fire, Death, Nature, Truth, etc in the F&P scheme.
I am drawing a blank, which is a bit unusual for me.
Sciento Tridens, male, half elf cleric, Knowledge
S 14 D 12 C 14 I 10 W 16 Ch 10
Languages: Common, Elvish, Draconic, Infernal, Celestial
Skills: Arcana, History, Religion, Insight, Perception, Stealth, Deception, Medicine,
Tools: Thieves Tools, (Gaming Set =Dice)

My GitP avatar is an acolyte of this version of Wee Jas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?450352-Wee-Jas-the-First-Lich&p=19941626).

In said setting (which rewrites the Greyhawk gods basically from scratch), each of the gods of knowledge covers a different aspect of knowledge.

- Erythnul is the god and goddess of instinct and emergent knowledge (evolution, etc).
- Wee Jas is the goddess of cultural knowledge and the ability to learn from one generation to the next (books, libraries, teachers, schools, history, art, etc).
- Boccob is the god of direct observation and experimental inquiry.
- Joramy is the goddess of probity and argument (logic, debate, and also things like investigative journalism).
- Olidammara is the god of wit and humor (which is a tool for human learning, too).
- Yurtrus is the god of wisdom gained from the weight of age, experience, and practice.

[Cikomyr2]

Can you skip having a deity? Nothing wrong with being a true Atheist Philosopher-Cleric, worshiper of Science and Epistemology.

[Rafaelfras]

Vecna isn't a FR deity though
Shar is the Faeruniam goddess of secrets

[Silly Name]

I liked the rivalry between Vecna and Ioun in 4e. The former is a god of knowledge who wants to keep information and lore secret as to better use them for his own ends, the latter is a goddess of knowledge who wants things to be known and taught the world over. Ioun is easily slotted in many settings, too.

As a big Dragonlance fan, however, Gilean would be my top pick. Apart from being a god of scribes, librarians and chroniclers, he's also the main proponent for free will on Krynn. He's also a bit of an odd one as far as D&D knowledge deities go, because he's not directly connected to magic like Vecna, Ioun or Boccob. Instead, Gilean does have a connection to magic through his daughter Lunitari, but he's completely devoted to knowledge.

One interesting detail about clerics of Gilean is that they're forbidden from ever destroying a book, no matter its contents. It's not likely to come up often, but if your campaign ends up featuring something like the Book of Vile Deeds or other tome of occult and forbidden knowledge, there can be some interesting friction about what should be done about the book.

[KorvinStarmast]

Can you skip having a deity? Nothing wrong with being a true Atheist Philosopher-Cleric, worshiper of Science and Epistemology.
For you, perhaps, but for me a cleric cannot be an atheist in a world where gods objectively do exist. And they do, per the DM.
For a Knowledge Domain Cleric to be an atheist thus
(1) makes, to me, no sense whatsoever
and
(2) is not the kind of mental gymnastics I am interested in trying to perform
and
(3) does not fit the setting

In another setting (where all that there is are forces and philosophies) that would probably be a really good fit. :smallsmile:

[Cikomyr2]

For you, perhaps, but for me a cleric cannot be an atheist in a world where gods objectively do exist. And they do, per the DM.
For a Knowledge Domain Cleric to be an atheist thus
(1) makes, to me, no sense whatsoever
and
(2) is not the kind of mental gymnastics I am interested in trying to perform
and
(3) does not fit the setting

In another setting (where all that there is are forces and philosophies) that would probably be a really good fit. :smallsmile:

Forgotten Realm?

So a Cadderly, or maybe Candlekeep scribe. A Librarian of Ogma or Deneir?

[Evaar]

My GitP avatar is an acolyte of this version of Wee Jas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?450352-Wee-Jas-the-First-Lich&p=19941626).

In said setting (which rewrites the Greyhawk gods basically from scratch), each of the gods of knowledge covers a different aspect of knowledge.

- Erythnul is the god and goddess of instinct and emergent knowledge (evolution, etc).
- Wee Jas is the goddess of cultural knowledge and the ability to learn from one generation to the next (books, libraries, teachers, schools, history, art, etc).
- Boccob is the god of direct observation and experimental inquiry.
- Joramy is the goddess of probity and argument (logic, debate, and also things like investigative journalism).
- Olidammara is the god of wit and humor (which is a tool for human learning, too).
- Yurtrus is the god of wisdom gained from the weight of age, experience, and practice.

I was going to recommend Ludic's version of Wee Jas but he beat me to it.

[Zetakya]

Being a spy, it's not necessarily a given that your god has to be a god of knowledge, per se. You could be a Cleric of a God that applies that knowledge somehow. A God of Stretegic Warfare would value military intelligence, while a God of Commerce might value industrial espionage.

[KorvinStarmast]

Forgotten Realm? Nope, DM is very much not an FR fan. :smallconfused:

Being a spy, it's not necessarily a given that your god has to be a god of knowledge, per se. You could be a Cleric of a God that applies that knowledge somehow. A God of Stretegic Warfare would value military intelligence, while a God of Commerce might value industrial espionage. Hmm, I'll see what deities and portfolios he produces in this week's draft, that's not a bad idea.

[ruadh128]

If the Greek pantheon is in play, check out Hecate.

She is variously associated with crossroads, entrance-ways, night, light, magic, witchcraft, knowledge of herbs and poisonous plants, ghosts, necromancy, and sorcery.

[KorvinStarmast]

If the Greek pantheon is in play, check out Hecate.

She is variously associated with crossroads, entrance-ways, night, light, magic, witchcraft, knowledge of herbs and poisonous plants, ghosts, necromancy, and sorcery. And now we know where multi tasking comes from. :smallcool: Not sure how Hecate would fit, just got a text from DM that the campaign outline document draft is 'pending' so I am still waiting ...

[Witty Username]

Baccob, I think is the head knowledge god of grey hawk. Vecna, god of secrets could work too, If you don't mind being a wee bit evil.
I think merchant/wealth gods also can fit knowledge, Wakeen for FR. I don't recall for Greyhawk.
Edit: I neglected Wee Jas(I think of her more as a death god), she can definitely work.

[Aett_Thorn]

Not sure if anyone here has read the book Lies of Locke Lamora, but in that series, it focuses on a group of thieves that stage elaborate robberies and break ins. In that world, there are twelve named gods of the pantheon, and an unnamed 13th that is the patron of thieves and pirates.

There are two main tenets: 1) Thieves prosper (this is basically saying that you should look out for other thieves and respect their guilds and such), and 2) The rich remember. This second tenet is where I think it could apply here for whatever god you choose. Basically, the second tenet is that the rich will remember when they get robbed/swindled if you do it right.

So a Cleric of this god might be going after knowledge that the rich have tucked away, and give it to the people in order for that knowledge to be shared. Planning and executing a heist may be seen as a holy duty, and can make good use of the Knowledge domain spells and abilities to make them happen. Knowledge of your marks is a good skill for a thief.

[KorvinStarmast]

So a Cleric of this god might be going after knowledge that the rich have tucked away, and give it to the people in order for that knowledge to be shared. Planning and executing a heist may be seen as a holy duty, and can make good use of the Knowledge domain spells and abilities to make them happen. Knowledge of your marks is a good skill for a thief. Even though my cleric is more spy than thief/burglar/safe cracker, I like your concept proposal. I'll see if that fits the campaign notes.

[Devils_Advocate]

While I have come to prefer 'Forces and Philosophies' for divine stuff as a DM, "Knowledge" doesn't have the same ring to my ear as Life, Fire, Death, Nature, Truth, etc in the F&P scheme.
I'll admit that I'm having difficulty even conceiving of Truth and Knowledge as two different things.


god of hidden, esoteric, or forbidden knowledge sounds like a better fit since I have the infernal, celestial and draconic languages, and because a spy is supposed to go and "find out this thing that nobody wants found out" as a matter of course.
I doubt that there's a better fit for that than the god of secrets, Vecna.


Nothing wrong with being a true Atheist Philosopher-Cleric, worshiper of Science and Epistemology.

For you, perhaps, but for me a cleric cannot be an atheist in a world where gods objectively do exist.
The Athar of Planescape deny the divinity of the Powers while acknowledging their existence. Which frankly strikes me as arguing semantics more than anything else, and insistence on a particular definition of "divinity" is a bit of a weird hill to die on. Regardless, the Athar are devoted to "discovering the truth" in less of a skeptical empiricist way and more of a conspiracy theorist way. They don't seem to be less dogmatic than average. Which maybe makes their philosophy a better fit for a cleric. Faith in open-mindedness seems like a bit of a contradiction.

[KorvinStarmast]

I doubt that there's a better fit for that than the god of secrets, Vecna. Worst possible fit, for me, since Vecna is not a god. I do not accept in any way, shape, or form the authorial choices made over various editions that morphed Vecna into a deity or demigod. (See my points above). Just so that you understand me: I, KorvinStarmast, will never have a PC, ever, worship or in any way serve Vecna. (Unless, of course, they are dumb enough to attach the eye or the hand to their body, but that's how artifacts work ...)

For other players, Vecna may be a lovely fit, so those who have suggested this may have done a service to other players going through the same thought process that I am.

OK, I just got a text from our DM.
The answer is: none of the above, but you all made some fantastic suggestions.
Thank You!

MY PC is a half elf Knowledge Domain Cleric.

The final deity is named Kanen, and here's the description.



Domain: Knowledge, Magic, Elves
Appearance/Representation: Frail, elderly man with a neatly trimmed beard, dressed in a hooded cloak and tunic. Symbol(s): Raven, book
Color: Violet
Offerings: Scrolls, spell books, incense
Kanen does not demand sole worship from his followers nor expect them to proselytize. As a matter of fact, there is no outright organized church outside of elvish civilization. Humans and others may erect shrines in libraries, towers, and such. The number of scriptures, books, and scrolls dispensing Kanen's wisdom is innumerable and his faithful can spend their entire lives in search of his written word and inspired writings. Multiple domains use these {in multiple RPG systems}
(looks a little like Boccob to me, all said and done)

As it works out during chargen with the DM: my PC was taken in by a friend of his father (as a pre teen) when his father's heart gave out due to overwork. This family friend became his mentor. Under his guidance, Sciento became a disciple of Kanen.

The suggestion to use one of the Deities from von Richten's guide (Har'Akir) was a fine one, to be sure, but we are starting in the real world of (X) and not in any of the dark realms. We'll end up in Barovia soon enough, it seems, but we start in a game world that is a high medieval/low renaissance place in the 'the empire has fallen and all is chaos' stage.

Once again, thanks to all of you for the recommendations. :smallsmile:

[Devils_Advocate]

Ah, sorry. I thought that you indicated earlier that you were considering changing your mind, but it seems that you instead meant that Vecna might still be a good choice for others.

I'll admit that I don't have extensive knowledge of Vecna's lore and my recommendation was only based on his portfolio. Many other deities who cover "secrets" or maybe "intrigue" would probably work just as well for the same reasons.

Trickery seems at least as apt a domain as Knowledge for a spy. I assume that you've already made up your mind on that, but maybe you'd still prefer a deity more associated with "deceit" or the like than with "knowledge" in general.

Oh, you already decided. Never mind then.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah, sorry. I thought that you indicated earlier that you were considering changing your mind, but it seems that you instead meant that Vecna might still be a good choice for others.
It was worth clearing that up, though, since one of the other posters had mentioned this thread of being possible use for future readers. :smallsmile:

Trickery seems at least as apt a domain as Knowledge for a spy. I assume that you've already made up your mind on that. Yes. And part of this has to do with party make up.
No rogue, so I deliberately chose the Criminal / Spy background to get thieves tools proficiency from the outset. As usual, I picked last to fill in the holes that the party has/had. (Knowledge Domain Channel Divinity allows for a bit of skill monkey work on my part).
Final team looks like this:
Yuan Ti Barbarian(path unclear as of how); Hexblood Sorcerer(Draconic); Half Elf Undying Warlock(but I need to double check race on that); Half Elf Cleric(Knowledge)