Blindsight, lockpicking, and other interactions.

[whateew]

Blindsight is a very interesting ability to gain access too, as it's very useful in ways that "fighting styles" typically aren't, despite limited combat interactions.

How does blindsight change the way a character could interact with the world? I had envisaged, for example, a slow and somewhat uncoordinated but incredibly sensitive (perceptually) locksmith feeling the ins and out of each of their locks and tumblers, slowly picking them based on their "blindsight" guiding them where to go rather than on manual precision.

Are there any other such ways you think blindsight would impact a character? I imagine an investigator looking for false doors would benefit, feeling up close to walls in a room to "sense" a hidden compartment.

[quindraco]

Blindsight is a very interesting ability to gain access too, as it's very useful in ways that "fighting styles" typically aren't, despite limited combat interactions.

How does blindsight change the way a character could interact with the world? I had envisaged, for example, a slow and somewhat uncoordinated but incredibly sensitive (perceptually) locksmith feeling the ins and out of each of their locks and tumblers, slowly picking them based on their "blindsight" guiding them where to go rather than on manual precision.

Are there any other such ways you think blindsight would impact a character? I imagine an investigator looking for false doors would benefit, feeling up close to walls in a room to "sense" a hidden compartment.

The fighting style, specifically, can't do either of your examples, because the fighting style can't penetrate total cover (standard blindsight has no such special rule, so e.g. if you had a bat familiar, you could do this with the bat).

But if you want inspiration for playing a blind person with the power of sight, I recommend checking out Daredevil, either in comic or tv show form.

[Chronos]

Normal lockpicking is done mostly by feel, anyway. I'm not sure how relevant sight (or "sight") would even be.

There are training locks, with transparent parts, so you can see what effect your picking has, but I think that even there, it's touch doing most of the work.

[Segev]

You may need to become adept at dodging books for trying to get away with this, but it's worth noting that blindsight lets you "effectively see anything that isn't behind total cover," which means you theoretically/technically can read and discern colors. So you could read in the dark and appreciate the color distinctions of things even when your darkvision (if you have it) would deny you color information.

In a less silly sense, you could argue that your character knows braille or has a similar, personal touch-text he uses so he can label his items and read things written in it. Certainly, if he has the Linguist feat, you could develop his own coded touch-text alphabet-ciphers, and likely read them within his blindsight range.

If your DM does not treat "blindsight" as sight - thus letting you read and see in color - then he is probably asserting that it operates on other senses. This should let blindsight tell you right away that a minor illusion image or silent image is an illusion, since your blindsight can't detect visually-detected things. (And if he does make it act as "sight," then he's letting you read and see in color with it!)

[whateew]

The fighting style, specifically, can't do either of your examples, because the fighting style can't penetrate total cover (standard blindsight has no such special rule, so e.g. if you had a bat familiar, you could do this with the bat).

Oh, very good catch, thank you! Although, I suppose for locks in particular, it's never Total Cover since there needs to be holes for the keys and pins.

Actually, this raised an interesting question to me - would you say this total-cover exempt blindsight would aid in investigating surfaces? To my mind, if someone was looking for, say, trap doors, or hidden compartments, investigating using a feeling-oriented blindsight would give a tangible advantage compared to investigating with just eyes - "feeling" subtle differences and marks in the surface and such - but am I maybe over playing this?


You may need to become adept at dodging books for trying to get away with this, but it's worth noting that blindsight lets you "effectively see anything that isn't behind total cover," which means you theoretically/technically can read and discern colors. So you could read in the dark and appreciate the color distinctions of things even when your darkvision (if you have it) would deny you color information.


This is very fun, and perhaps not Too Ridiculous - blindsight for the fighter has a Heightened Senses kind of feel.




In a less silly sense, you could argue that your character knows braille or has a similar, personal touch-text he uses so he can label his items and read things written in it. Certainly, if he has the Linguist feat, you could develop his own coded touch-text alphabet-ciphers, and likely read them within his blindsight range.

If your DM does not treat "blindsight" as sight - thus letting you read and see in color - then he is probably asserting that it operates on other senses. This should let blindsight tell you right away that a minor illusion image or silent image is an illusion, since your blindsight can't detect visually-detected things. (And if he does make it act as "sight," then he's letting you read and see in color with it!)

This idea of a Braille Linguist is super, super cool, I like it a lot. As for the illusions, I would assume that blindsight automatically sees through illusions, since only phantasmal force, to my knowledge, mentions specifically fooling senses other than vision. However, the RAW mentions "you can effectively see" objects, so that might be debatable.

[Segev]

This is very fun, and perhaps not Too Ridiculous - blindsight for the fighter has a Heightened Senses kind of feel.Yeah, and for a Gloomstalker Ranger, it might represent "super darkvision" as a part of how it works. Though since it works expressly "even when blinded," it may just be "my eyes are not what I see with."


This idea of a Braille Linguist is super, super cool, I like it a lot. As for the illusions, I would assume that blindsight automatically sees through illusions, since only phantasmal force, to my knowledge, mentions specifically fooling senses other than vision. However, the RAW mentions "you can effectively see" objects, so that might be debatable.

Actually, major image and mirage arcane, as well as the sound version of minor illusion and illusory dragon from XGE, just off the top of my head, specifically fool more (or at least other) than just visual senses. Mirage arcane explicitly fools touch. I forget if major image does or not.

[Keltest]

Illusion spells and other mind-affecting abilities generally specify whether or not having an alternative sense will render the illusion moot or not. Usually with a disclaimer like "creatures that do not rely on sight are immune to this effect" or words to similar effect.

[quindraco]

This idea of a Braille Linguist is super, super cool, I like it a lot. As for the illusions, I would assume that blindsight automatically sees through illusions, since only phantasmal force, to my knowledge, mentions specifically fooling senses other than vision. However, the RAW mentions "you can effectively see" objects, so that might be debatable.

Many higher-level illlusions fool more than just sight (and so does minor illusion, which can do sounds). At 4th level, Hallucinatory Terrain does sight, sound, and smell. At 7th level, Mirage Arcane is basically Hallucinatory Terrain but with touch (!!!) included.

Mirage Arcane explicitly explains that while truesight works on it - the trueseer can see that what they're looking at is illusory - stuff like illusionary rocks on the ground made with it still cause rough terrain, because of the tactile override.

[whateew]

I guess the major question here then is - is blindsight kind of light Sight (Alternative), or is it it's own sense called Blindsight?

If it's like Sight (Alt), then blindsight would be susceptible to visual illusion just as normal vision is. While I think this isn't really what blindsight is about, you could interpret this from the "you can effectively see" line in the fighting style.

However, if you instead focus on "you can effectively see," and just take that to be saying that this separate sense, blindsight, can replace sight.

Is one reading or anotjer better to you?

[Keltest]

I guess the major question here then is - is blindsight kind of light Sight (Alternative), or is it it's own sense called Blindsight?

If it's like Sight (Alt), then blindsight would be susceptible to visual illusion just as normal vision is. While I think this isn't really what blindsight is about, you could interpret this from the "you can effectively see" line in the fighting style.

However, if you instead focus on "you can effectively see," and just take that to be saying that this separate sense, blindsight, can replace sight.

Is one reading or anotjer better to you?

I believe the game actually does consider blindsight to be another sense that happens to give the same information.The most obvious example being that if it was actually sight, then blindsight couldnt see through the blinded condition.

Beyond that though, i believe the game's description of blindsight is that it actually is a game term for a variety of effects that allow you to perceive your environment without using visual light, either via echolocation or some other method.

[Segev]

There's a reason I heaped a big helping of grains of salt onto the "effectively see" -> "read and discern color" notion. You could interpret it from the RAW, but you should not expect your DM to. I think it's actually nice that the freedom is there; it means if you have some weird magical explanation for your blindsight, perhaps it DOES work that way. But if it's basically touch-sense for ground tremors and air currents mixed with heightened hearing and/or smell, your DM can rule it works other ways.

I think, in fact, you'd benefit greatly from sitting down with your DM to discuss exactly what narrative mechanisms your blindsight works with. Do you have a keen sense of smell? Maybe your DM will also give you benefits that aren't listed that are fitting in story, like letting you track by scent or pick up different chemicals used in some concoction or the like. Do you have echolocation? The DM may permit you to make out conversations where others would not even notice the voices. Is it a magical or psychic "touch field" that lets you feel things in the radius? Perhaps that can give you strange and unusual insight into things, like being able to feel the textures of fabrics or detect how hot something is without having to be closer than "within blindsight range."

[Chronos]

Quoth Segev:

If your DM does not treat "blindsight" as sight - thus letting you read and see in color - then he is probably asserting that it operates on other senses. This should let blindsight tell you right away that a minor illusion image or silent image is an illusion, since your blindsight can't detect visually-detected things. (And if he does make it act as "sight," then he's letting you read and see in color with it!)
In my group, it's quite common for anyone with a bat familiar to use it to try to detect illusions. Which doesn't always work, for the higher-level ones, but it is a handy tool to have available.

[LudicSavant]

Blindsight explicitly covers senses that are not sight.


A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius. Creatures without eyes, such as oozes, and creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons, have this sense.

The Blind-Fighting style adds a line about being unable to penetrate total cover for some reason (it seems weird to me since it seems at odds with the usual 'blind martial artist' fantasy concepts).

[whateew]

The Blind-Fighting style adds a line about being unable to penetrate total cover for some reason (it seems weird to me since it seems at odds with the usual 'blind martial artist' fantasy concepts).

Yeah, it is kinda unsatisfying. And while it works fine for combat, there are lots of debatable situations - if the Dex fighter is trying to sneak through a manor, and there is a closed door Infront of them, could they ask if through the air crack in the door below, they sense any guards hiding around the corner of the door. This would be total cover vis a vis combat, but it isn't "total" cover, there's "room" for this blindsight to go through - how would you respond to such a situation?


It also leaves a lot unsaid - how fine grain is your blindsight? Can you detect small differences in texture, or the slight outline of a hidden door? Is this something that you can just know if you're close enough, or would it take a roll?

[Segev]

Yeah, it is kinda unsatisfying. And while it works fine for combat, there are lots of debatable situations - if the Dex fighter is trying to sneak through a manor, and there is a closed door Infront of them, could they ask if through the air crack in the door below, they sense any guards hiding around the corner of the door. This would be total cover vis a vis combat, but it isn't "total" cover, there's "room" for this blindsight to go through - how would you respond to such a situation?


It also leaves a lot unsaid - how fine grain is your blindsight? Can you detect small differences in texture, or the slight outline of a hidden door? Is this something that you can just know if you're close enough, or would it take a roll?

Since the wording is "as if you could see," while I perfectly well accept that a DM might say "it isn't sight, so you don't get color and things with no texture at all, like words on a page," I would venture to suggest that if the question of how fine resolution it is comes up, "as well as if you could see" is a reasonable one. But it may also depend on how you and your DM agree your blindsight works. For example, if it's a "touchsight" at range, it might be more sensitive to fine textures than sight would be, but not particularly good at flowing around corners. If it's sound or scent-based, it might have less resolution, but be better able to discern things through gaps in doors or around corners.

[Keravath]

The mechanism for Blindsight is not specifically defined in the rules. A DM who comes up with some explanation for it (eg echolocation based on sound) is imposing their own preconceived notion of what Blindsight must be and then adding houserules to conform to their conception of how it works.

What the rules say is the following:

"BLIND SIGHT
A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius. Creatures without eyes, such as oozes, and creatures
with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons, have this sense."

Echolocation is called out as a possible explanation in the case of bats. On the other hand, creatures without eyes can still perceive and creatures with heightened senses like dragons are the same.

The rule does not say that colors or text can not be read. I agree that logically, in the case of echolocation, reading text or perceiving colours doesn't really make sense. On the other hand, blind sight is also used as a term for supernatural (or even magical) senses and I see no reason why some unknown sensory ability would not allow creatures to sense everything within their blindsight radius.

For example, there are some science fiction/fantasy novels in which creatures have a "sense of perception" like blindsight such that they can sense everything within 30' in any direction including through solid surfaces. They can perceive the interior of devices if they want to. This is just one example of a supernatural or magical form of blindsight. An example like this might also be why the blind sight fighting style mentions it is blocked by total cover since the normal definition of blind sight imposes no such limitation - all it says is that the creature can "perceive its surroundings within the specified radius" which could very well include the contents of a room behind a closed door.

Anyway, RAW, blind sight imposes no limitations on what can be perceived. Any constraints beyond that are a DM house rule.

[Chronos]

Another Lensmen fan, I take it?

[whateew]

Another Lensmen fan, I take it?

I've actually never heard of the series, but looking at the synopsis it seems up my alley - you'd recommend it?

[Chronos]

Well, keep in mind that it's a product of its time: In particular, it comes off as rather sexist. But there's a reason the Lensmen books are classics.

[Keravath]

I've actually never heard of the series, but looking at the synopsis it seems up my alley - you'd recommend it?

It is classic space opera by E.E. "Doc" Smith. I've enjoyed reading it (more than once to be honest) but the times it was written in date it (written from 1934-1948 with rewrites and more consistent novels published from 1948-1954). In particular, the role of women in the stories and general lack of diversity (other than alien races). However, if you like space opera it is one of the classics.

Note: the concept of a 360 degree sense of perception is in these novels which is the relevance to this thread - though I think there are other examples in science fiction :)