[3.5] Order for building a level 19 character all at once?

[Thoughtcandle]

Hey everyone, I’ll be building a level 19 cleric / radiant servant of pelor / sacred exorcist all at once.

Looking for the best order for figuring everything out.

In other words, what should I focus on getting down on my sheet first?

I think it makes sense to do ability scores + level bonuses > BAB > saves and then go from there, but I figured I would ask the forum for any suggestions.

Thank you!

[Lilapop]

For just writing everything down, ability score generation, then ability score bonuses, then everything else... because ability score modifiers affect almost everything.

But if you haven't figured out your whole build yet, the first step is listing everything you want to take that has requirements. 13 strength for power attack? Secondary skill ranks for some prestige class (sexo is expensive as hell here, so everything else might be delayed)? Caster level for some caster feat? And so on and so forth. Then you lay out level-based caps (like maximum skill ranks) and shuffle things around until it all looks elegant and efficient. And then you go ahead and write it down.

In short: build first, character creation/levelup second.

[Thoughtcandle]

For just writing everything down, ability score generation, then ability score bonuses, then everything else... because ability score modifiers affect almost everything.

But if you haven't figured out your whole build yet, the first step is listing everything you want to take that has requirements. 13 strength for power attack? Secondary skill ranks for some prestige class (sexo is expensive as hell here, so everything else might be delayed)? Caster level for some caster feat? And so on and so forth. Then you lay out level-based caps (like maximum skill ranks) and shuffle things around until it all looks elegant and efficient. And then you go ahead and write it down.

In short: build first, character creation/levelup second.

Appreciate the answer here, still gotta figure out what feats I’ll be taking.

Focused on buffing, will be taking the DMM route as well - so having that core in mind, I can work back from there

[Particle_Man]

Different classes have different class skills, and your first ever class level quadruples your class skills. So if you ever spend skill points on a skill that is a class skill for some of your classes but not for others, that could be a factor to keep track of. Similarly, you can't buy more than one skill trick per character level and they all have prerequisites.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Different classes have different class skills, and your first ever class level quadruples your class skills.Speaking of, welcome to the worshipers of the great and radiant Pelor the Burning Hate! Have you ever considered taking up your worship as a cloistered cleric or archivist? Getting lots of skill points helps a bunch, and being a sacred exorcist means that having lots of knowledge of things that go bump in the night and can possess and devour one's soul comes in quite handy when dealing with such things.

[Maat Mons]

You might want to check with your DM on how Empower / Maximize / Supreme Healing work. Specifically, if the "from the Healing domain" limitations just means that it has to be a spell listed in the Healing domain, or if it means it has to be cast from one of your domain slots.

You might also want to look into the Mastery of Day and Night feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, p125). That's a different, much easier way of maximizing healing spells.

Judging by the theme you seem to be going for, some alternative class features you may be interested in include Divine Restoration (Dungeonscape, p9), True Daylight (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, p207), and Positive Healing (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, p207).

Your build only needs 6 levels in Cleric to function. But if you stick it out for one more level, you can pick up the Pool of Healing ACF (Complete Champion, p48). That lets you use Caduceus Bracers (Magic Item Compendium, p84).

[mattie_p]

You have two different threads going on at once bo, I'll respond here. Maybe mods can merge the threads? Anyway,

Building a character for a game that starts at level 19 is the same but different from building it from level 1 and growing organically. It's the same in the sense that the way I do it is essentially start at level 1 and go from there in accordance with the plan, but it's different in that the lower levels don't need to be playable. You can make decisions that trade short-term utility for long-term gains, that you might not get away with if you had to play from level 1.

Have you looked at the Iron Chef competitions at all? Look at those as far as a style you can use to get the results you are after. There's a table included in nearly every build that will help you in this process as well, at least in recording the essentials.

Now, let's get to the meat of this. The very best guidelines for creating a PC of any level are found, in all places, in the PHB on page 6! Who'd of thunk it? Let's walk through just a few steps on that page together.

Step 0: Check with your Dungeon Master. Throughout both posts you have dropped hints regarding what the DM will and will not permit. Let's get a whole list of them. What house rules or rulings are in effect? What sources are permitted or banned? -- You've told us that nightsticks do not stack and that you cannot use the Prestige Class Morninglord of Lathander. Is that class not permitted because it is a banned source or because the DM will not cross campaign worlds (you're in Greyhawk, that is deity is FR)? It's important for you to know which is the case so you can best build your character to fit what you desire to play. All of us here can toss ideas at you, but without knowing what is kosher it's hard to get anything to stick. Is all FR off the table or just refluffing prestige classes? Is Eberron source material permitted?

Step 1: Roll Ability Scores. Are you rolling? Point buy? Some other method? You'll be a divine caster at level 19, so you will want access to 9th level spells. As a cleric wisdom, is your most important score, followed by charisma and constitution.

Step 2: Choose your Class and Race. Cleric, and human (because of bonus feat). Is it just the feat you want? What about Strongheart halfling (FRCS p18), which get a bonus feat, small size, +2 Dex -2 Str? Alternate humans such as Azurin (Magic of Incarnum p7) get bonus feat and 1 point of essentia for some interesting character options.

We're going to leave that page for now and talk some class features. You mentioned that you wanted Sun Domain. How does that interact with class features that give up "Turn Undead" at level 1 and you gain it back later? Sacred Exorcist explicitly grants turn undead "as (normal) clerics do" if you don't have it. Remember you don't need to play this character at level 1, only at level 19. Are you going to try to turn undead or are you mostly going to be using turns to power DMM?

If powering DMM, you're going to want multiple pools of turning. Each pool gets a CHA mod bonus, and each pool gets enhanced when you take Extra Turning (which you have to do for Radiant Servant anyway).

I would recommend you give up turn undead at level 1 for an ACF or sub level that explicitly powers divine feats, such as the Destroy Undead lightbringer cleric ability from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p206-7, or Channel Incarnum Azurin Sub Level (Magic of Incarnum p43). Then you get back turn undead when you take Sacred Exorcist. You could even take a single level in the Death Delver prestige class found in Heroes of Horror and gain Rebuke Undead at level 6 (earliest qualification). You now have 3 pools of turning, each at 3 + CHA Mod. And every Extra Turning Feat grants an extra 12 turns for DMM.

Anyway, I think you have enough to get started. Selecting feats and such, just get your minimum DMM for whatever type of metamagic you want, take Extra turning for the rest. Select skill ranks at each level to meet the qualifications for the prestige classes you're going to take.

[Thoughtcandle]

You have two different threads going on at once bo, I'll respond here. Maybe mods can merge the threads? Anyway,

Building a character for a game that starts at level 19 is the same but different from building it from level 1 and growing organically. It's the same in the sense that the way I do it is essentially start at level 1 and go from there in accordance with the plan, but it's different in that the lower levels don't need to be playable. You can make decisions that trade short-term utility for long-term gains, that you might not get away with if you had to play from level 1.

Have you looked at the Iron Chef competitions at all? Look at those as far as a style you can use to get the results you are after. There's a table included in nearly every build that will help you in this process as well, at least in recording the essentials.

Now, let's get to the meat of this. The very best guidelines for creating a PC of any level are found, in all places, in the PHB on page 6! Who'd of thunk it? Let's walk through just a few steps on that page together.

Step 0: Check with your Dungeon Master. Throughout both posts you have dropped hints regarding what the DM will and will not permit. Let's get a whole list of them. What house rules or rulings are in effect? What sources are permitted or banned? -- You've told us that nightsticks do not stack and that you cannot use the Prestige Class Morninglord of Lathander. Is that class not permitted because it is a banned source or because the DM will not cross campaign worlds (you're in Greyhawk, that is deity is FR)? It's important for you to know which is the case so you can best build your character to fit what you desire to play. All of us here can toss ideas at you, but without knowing what is kosher it's hard to get anything to stick. Is all FR off the table or just refluffing prestige classes? Is Eberron source material permitted?

Step 1: Roll Ability Scores. Are you rolling? Point buy? Some other method? You'll be a divine caster at level 19, so you will want access to 9th level spells. As a cleric wisdom, is your most important score, followed by charisma and constitution.

Step 2: Choose your Class and Race. Cleric, and human (because of bonus feat). Is it just the feat you want? What about Strongheart halfling (FRCS p18), which get a bonus feat, small size, +2 Dex -2 Str? Alternate humans such as Azurin (Magic of Incarnum p7) get bonus feat and 1 point of essentia for some interesting character options.

We're going to leave that page for now and talk some class features. You mentioned that you wanted Sun Domain. How does that interact with class features that give up "Turn Undead" at level 1 and you gain it back later? Sacred Exorcist explicitly grants turn undead "as (normal) clerics do" if you don't have it. Remember you don't need to play this character at level 1, only at level 19. Are you going to try to turn undead or are you mostly going to be using turns to power DMM?

If powering DMM, you're going to want multiple pools of turning. Each pool gets a CHA mod bonus, and each pool gets enhanced when you take Extra Turning (which you have to do for Radiant Servant anyway).

I would recommend you give up turn undead at level 1 for an ACF or sub level that explicitly powers divine feats, such as the Destroy Undead lightbringer cleric ability from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p206-7, or Channel Incarnum Azurin Sub Level (Magic of Incarnum p43). Then you get back turn undead when you take Sacred Exorcist. You could even take a single level in the Death Delver prestige class found in Heroes of Horror and gain Rebuke Undead at level 6 (earliest qualification). You now have 3 pools of turning, each at 3 + CHA Mod. And every Extra Turning Feat grants an extra 12 turns for DMM.

Anyway, I think you have enough to get started. Selecting feats and such, just get your minimum DMM for whatever type of metamagic you want, take Extra turning for the rest. Select skill ranks at each level to meet the qualifications for the prestige classes you're going to take.

This is great, thank you very much for the input.

When it comes to extra turning pools, I considered doing what you suggested (taking destroy undead ACF) but my question is, how does it work when sacred exorcist comes on? Is my second pool of turn undead only relative to my levels in sacred exorcist, or does sacred exorcist automatically apply my levels in cleric + RS to checks? Just curious.

[mattie_p]

It won't stack because you trade away that class feature of cleric and get a different class feature. But if you're primarily using turning to fuel DMM, then the result of the
check doesn't really matter because you're using raw number of attempts. That's the advantage to multiple pools, exponentially increasing attempts.

[Quertus]

I would recommend you give up turn undead at level 1 for an ACF or sub level that explicitly powers divine feats, such as the Destroy Undead lightbringer cleric ability from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p206-7, or Channel Incarnum Azurin Sub Level (Magic of Incarnum p43). Then you get back turn undead when you take Sacred Exorcist. You could even take a single level in the Death Delver prestige class found in Heroes of Horror and gain Rebuke Undead at level 6 (earliest qualification). You now have 3 pools of turning, each at 3 + CHA Mod. And every Extra Turning Feat grants an extra 12 turns for DMM.

1) how is that 3 pools?

2) last I heard, there were only 2 turning pools that were unambiguously able to combine this way - is any of this in "ask your GM" territory?

[mattie_p]

It is pretty unambiguous.

At level 1, the cleric takes the "Destroy Undead" Alternative Class Feature.


Benefit: Instead of the cleric's normal ability to turn or rebuke undead, a lightbringer cleric can channel positive energy to destroy undead. ...

If a feat requires the expenditure of one or more uses of turn undead, it instead consumes uses of this ability.

Azurin Cleric channel incarnum has very similar wording.

Level 1, Turning Pool #1.

At ECL 6, take Death Delver (Heroes of Horror) which says the following:


Rebuke Undead: Like an evil cleric, you can rebuke undead...

Level 6, gain Turning Pool #2.

And at ECL 9, take Sacred Exorcist which says:


Turn Undead: Sacred Exorcists can turn undead as clerics do. If a sacred exorcist has this ability from another class, her class levels stack to ...

Level 9, gain turning Pool #3.

It's pretty explicitly laid out what each ability does. It only stacks if its the same. Channel Incarnum and Destroy Undead are not "Turn Undead," so it doesn't stack.

A DM is, of course, free to modify anything to make it appropriate for their table.

[Lilapop]

While we're on the topic of turning pools, does anyone know of a way to get more than four DMM-capable ones (hopefully without killing your spellcasting progression)?

#1: Azurin cleric with channel incarnum, or drow cleric with rebuke vermin, or lightbringer cleric with destroy undead
#2: Prestige paladin (or four levels of regular paladin if your DM is a killjoy) with rebuke dragons
#3: Knight of the raven of sacred exorcist with regular turn undead
#4: Death delver with regular rebuke undead

As far as I know, the ACFs only apply to clerics and paladins, and KotR and Sexo are the only prestige classes that give fresh TU.

[RedMage125]

OP: Just to bring to your attention...


You might want to check with your DM on how Empower / Maximize / Supreme Healing work. Specifically, if the "from the Healing domain" limitations just means that it has to be a spell listed in the Healing domain, or if it means it has to be cast from one of your domain slots.

A thread detailing the particulars of this class feature can be found here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?351583-Radiant-Servant-of-Pelor-issues). Thread's been dead for years, tho.

Short version is, one logical (but asinine) interpretation is that the boosted healing only works when you cast a Healing Domain Spell from your daily Domain slot. Most of us agreed that of you at least HAVE the healing Domain, then ANY time you cast one of the spells, you get the benefit (because you may prepare Domain spells in your regular cleric spell slots if they appear on the cleric spell list, is that way that's worded). Some of us thought you get the benefit even if you don't have the Domain, but that was never agreed on.

The ability to spontaneously convert spells to Domain spells would eliminate all doubt on the matter, too, but only if you had the Domain.

Also, if you were looking for advice, the Glory Domain also gets you am additional die of turning (and by extension greater turning) damage, in addition to some decent spells, to include Holy Sword.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

My understanding is that you don't get multiple turning pools, your levels just stack for effective turning level:To be fair, it only says that cleric and paladin levels stack in that way. Nothing about any other classes. And if one has turn undead, rebuke undead, and other abilities that act like those but are different, they wouldn't stack like that, either. A Neutral-aligned cleric//dread necromancer could have turning attempts and rebuking attempts, but since the cleric has turn undead and the dread necromancer has rebuke undead (not the same ability), they shouldn't stack like that.

[sreservoir]

Most of us agreed that of you at least HAVE the healing Domain, then ANY time you cast one of the spells, you get the benefit (because you may prepare Domain spells in your regular cleric spell slots if they appear on the cleric spell list, is that way that's worded).

That's a pretty Fantastic reading that also implies that if one of your domains has a spell that's also on the cleric list, then if you prepare it in a non-domain slot, you cannot spontaneously cast a cure/inflict in its place, because you can only ""lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell" for that.

[RedMage125]

That's a pretty Fantastic reading that also implies that if one of your domains has a spell that's also on the cleric list, then if you prepare it in a non-domain slot, you cannot spontaneously cast a cure/inflict in its place, because you can only ""lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell" for that.

...no?
Because it's still a cleric spell. It's just also a domain spell. So it can be "lost" to spontaneously convert, but when the prepared spell is cast, it would benefit from riders that affect "domain spells". The argument is that one must HAVE the Healing domain to get those rider benefits, because otherwise it is not a "domain spell" for you.

Also, utterly redundant in this case, because you're going to do what? Sacrifice the Cure Critical Wounds that you have prepared as a level 4 spell in order to spontaneously cast Cure Critical Wounds?

[rrwoods]

...no?
Because it's still a cleric spell. It's just also a domain spell. So it can be "lost" to spontaneously convert, but when the prepared spell is cast, it would benefit from riders that affect "domain spells". The argument is that one must HAVE the Healing domain to get those rider benefits, because otherwise it is not a "domain spell" for you.

Also, utterly redundant in this case, because you're going to do what? Sacrifice the Cure Critical Wounds that you have prepared as a level 4 spell in order to spontaneously cast Cure Critical Wounds?

Uh, what?

If "domain spell" means "spell that is in your domain, whether it's in a domain slot or a regular slot", then a spell in one of your domains *is* a domain spell even in a regular slot, so it definitely does not meet the condition "prepared spell that is not a domain spell", because it's a domain spell. It can't both be a domain spell and a "prepared spell that is not a domain spell". (You're right that this isn't relevant to this particular question, since it means you can't trade a cure spell for a cure spell, which is pointless. It's just an additional consequence of defining "domain spell" this way.)