A Fairly Typical Unseen Seer

[Maat Mons]

This isn't for any particular game. But the idea's been on my mind lately. So I'd like to write out an Unseen Seer build.

I'm pretty sure I'd like to go Rogue 1 / Wizard 5 / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 4. I know the 5th level of Wizard isn't necessary. And the Unseen Seer handbook I found doesn't seem to recommend staying in the base classes any longer than necessary. But the 5th level of Wizard looks tempting to me, when you factor in such ACFs as Domain Granted Power and Spontaneous Divination. In particular, I was thinking I'd go with Spontaneous Divination.

I'd also kind of like to write it up as having the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF. Supposing I try to use this character in a real game at some point in the future, the Dragon magazine content might prove to be a sticking point for whatever DM I play under. But I guess it wouldn't be too much work to rework it as a non-Eidetic Spellcaster when and if I come to that bridge.

I've spent some time thinking about how I might be able to combine this with Elven Generalist. But the skills would be a real pain without the Able Learner feat. I mean, it can definitely be done. The "extra" Wizard level I'd already planned to take helps out a bit. If that were combined with the Martial Study feat for a Shadow Hand maneuver, to make Hide a class skill, I calculate I could get by with an Intelligence score of 16. Not too bad, especially if I go with one of the +2 Int elven subraces, or start at middle age. But I'd be spending 5 levels way behind on Concentration, and any other skills I might want.

On the other hand, half-elves might be eligible for Elven Generalist. They're not, if I recall, eligible for Able learner unless they take Human Heritage, or the DM plays with that one variant rule suggested in Races of Destiny. Taking Human Heritage and Able Learner would require flaws to be in play. And the variant rule would be one more thing to try to convince a DM of if I ever try to play this. How sub-optimal is it to play just a regular generalist? I'd rather not give up two schools. (And definitely not a third for Focused Specialist.)

For feat, I'd obviously take Able Learner, unless I go with the elf option. I was also thinking Darkstalker, for that feats general awesomeness where stealth characters are concerned. And then Practiced Spellcaster, to compensate for the Rogue level, and the -3 caster level Unseen Seer imposes on all non-divination spells. But I'm really stumped after that.

What should I take for Advanced Learning? The handbook I found recommended Divine Insight, which looks amazing, and Hunter's Eye, which seems reasonably solid. But after that, nothing really jumped out at me. It recommends Grave Strike, but I could also just switch to casting spells whenever I run up against something immune to Sneak Attack, so I don't know how worried I am about undead.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I believe the handbooks recommend including Rogue 3 for the Penetrating Strike ACF in Dungeonscape. This allows you to still add half your sneak attack dice when flanking an opponent immune to sneak attack (but not if the target is immune to flanking).

You could go Rogue 1/ Wizard 2/ Rogue +2/ Unseen Seer, and not even worry about your Wizard class skills. This still gets 9th level spells at 20th using Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster, as well as 8d6 sneak attack total. I'd also recommend taking the Arcane Trickster levels earlier, and finishing Unseen Seer later, as Unseen Seer's higher base skill points/level will catch you up on your important skills.

If you insist on entering as Rogue 1/ Wizard 5, why not replace Rogue with Spellthief or Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)?

[Anthrowhale]

Instead of Able Learner, you might consider using the retraining rules for class skills in PHB II.

Skills with Int 14 would look like:

Rogue 1: Hide 4, MS 4, Search 4, Disable Device 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4, W 4, X 4, Y 4, Z 4
Wizard 1: Hide 4, MS 4, Search 4, Disable Device 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4, W 4, X 4, Y 4, Z 0, Spellcraft 4, Concentration 4
Wizard 2: Hide 6, MS 4, Search 4, Disable Device 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4, W 4, X 4, Y 2, Z 0, Spellcraft 6, Concentration 6
Wizard 3: Hide 6, MS 4, Search 4, Disable Device 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 7, W 4, X 1, Y 2, Z 0, Spellcraft 7, Concentration 7, V 2
Wizard 4: Hide 6, MS 4, Search 8, Disable Device 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 7, W 0, X 1, Y 2, Z 0, Spellcraft 8, Concentration 8, V 4
Wizard 5: Hide 8, MS 4, Search 8, Disable Device 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 8(cc), W 0, X 1, Y 0, Z 0, Spellcraft 9, Concentration 9, V 4

In terms of base classes, you might consider either Spellthief or Scout instead. Scout provides a somewhat more reliable way to trigger damage and Spellthief provides a little bit of extra utility with steal spells.

As far as spells, Guidance of the Avatar is also solid and a spontaneously castable Alter Fortune could be a real lifesaver. Visions of the Future is something like Moment of Prescience for clerics, and it;s cumulative.

[Rebel7284]

Elven Generalist adds Search to your class skills which helps a bunch and means you only need to waste 8 skills points, which isn't as bad.

A dip in Ruathar after Wizard 5 delays your Unseen seer further but also has Hide and Spot as a class skills. Might be worth it.

Spellthief is nice, especially if you are fighting a lot of spellcasters since it can empty out their top spell slots with Master Spellthief (even if you can't cast those stolen spells). However, it complicates your skills further due to not having Sense Motive (Ruathar does, but you would need some real high int or multiple Ruathar levels)

If you are taking Domain Granted Power at Wizard 5, you could also take one of the domains that expands your skill list, but that's probably not worth it. Just listing for completeness.

Oh, a google search also revealed that Forestlord Elves (Dragon Magic) have Hide as a class skill! (and dragonblood subtype to boot)

So a Forestlord Elf Rogue 1/Generalist Wizard 5/ only need to spend 4 skill points cross class on Spot or 0 points if dipping Ruathar.

I have heard of delaying the last advanced learning until you have 9th level spells for Chose Destiny.

Craven is a fun feat to have for extra damage, but check with your DM if Mind Blank turns it off. After all, immunity to mind affecting does, in a roundabout way, make you immune to fear. Technically the game could have non-mind affecting fear effects though...

I feel like Arcane Trickster at higher levels is less helpful than some other stuff. Sure it gives you 2d6 more sneak attack, but if you take 4 levels of Incantatrix instead, you could do things like apply Persistent Spell to Chose Destiny and stuff like that. Or, if you join a Cabal of Illusionists, Shadowcraft Mage gives some silly flexibility and Cloak of Shadow helps you hide.

Edit:
I would avoid taking more than one Rogue level. Penetrating strike is nice, but Greater Truedeath Crystal is relatively cheap and Golem Strike is a first level spell for you. As a Wizard, I am sure you can figure out something else to do against plants and oozes, the few times you encounter those.

[Maat Mons]

I did consider Rogue 3. And the ability to use half my Sneak Attack on normally-immune enemies would be nice. But I'm hesitant to delay my spell access by another two levels. It also has always bummed me out that Penetrating Strike only works when flanking. It kind of limits it to melee Rogues.

Speaking of which, what path should I focus on for delivering Sneak Attacks? The build just barely squeaks into +11/+6/+1 base attack bonus at 20th level. Which is particularly relevant if a game goes into epic. Though I don't typically play in games that get anywhere near those levels.

On the other hand, the build also doesn't hit +6/+1 base attack bonus until 12th level. So in practical terms, I'd be spending most of the character's playtime with no iterative attacks. And in either case, my to-hit isn't going to be very good.

Should I try to use weapons? And if so, which combat style? Two-weapon fighting? Archery? Whatever you call crossbow use? (Arbellesting?) Or should I just focus on spellcasting? And treat Sneak Attack as a helpful bonus that applies to some of my spells?



I've never looked at skill retraining before. So it... just kind of lets you ignore the normal limitations? Sort of?

That's a startling revelation. I always thought the retraining rules all tried to force you into a result you could have obtained by making different choices while leveling up the normal way.



I hadn't even thought to check if Elven Generalist altered class skills. Getting Search as a class skill would certainly help. But it only becomes a class skill for the levels where I actually take Elven Generalist, right? So at most Wizard 1, Wizard 3, and Wizard 5?

Is Elven Generalist level 3 compatible with Eidetic Spellcaster? Eidetic Spellcaster loses the Familiar, and Elven Generalist 3 modifies the familiar. And is Spontaneous Divination compatible with Elven Generalist 5? Elven Generalist 5 modifies the bonus feat, and Spontaneous Divination trades out that same bonus feat.

Forestlord elf is a nice catch. But I'm not sure it's more helpful here than fire elf, gray elf, or sun elf. Forestlord would get me better skill point efficiency. But the other three would give me an Int bonus, and thus more skill points.

[RandomPeasant]

Taking Rogue 3 is committing to a Sneak Attack focused build. If you're going to do that, there are better things to do with your life than Unseen Seer (namely: a bunch of Rogue levels and TWF-ing of some sort). If you want to be a caster, and taking Unseen Seer is signaling that, you should take as few non-caster levels as possible.

I think that as a caster you should not really be focusing on delivering Sneak Attacks at all. Your ability to cast BFC and SoL spells that win encounters is not meaningfully impeded by being an Unseen Seer (the caster level penalty doesn't matter for most spells by the time you get it), so you should cast those spells. If you really want to Sneak Attack people as an Unseen Seer, the way to do that is to take hunter's eye as your first Advanced Learning, pivot to Incantatrix, and run around turned into a Giant Octopus with permanent greater invisibility so that you get to deal stupid amounts of melee damage.

Beguiler is worth considering as an entry option, as it has all the skills you need (IIRC). That would allow you to elide the Rogue levels, though it's not completely clear what the Damage Bonus ability does in that case. I expect most DMs would say "nothing", but there's an argument it gives you Sneak Attack if you don't have it (and it should definitely stack with huner's eye or assassin's stance if you pick that up somehow).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding what types of attacks you should be doing, the Acidic Splatter reserve feat in CM is decent for a ranged touch attack that can sneak attack. For melee, Wraithstrike is going to be the way to go. You can put a wand of that in a wand chamber of your weapon, since that's still a swift action to activate per the Rules Compendium. Otherwise (Lesser Rod of) Extended and later Persistent Wraithstrike is likely the way to go. Consider Spell Focus: Transmutation, Ability Enhancer in Dragon Compendium, and Metamagic School Focus: Transmutation so Persistent Wraithstrike takes a 7th level slot.

The build definitely underperforms in the damage department until the higher levels, so I think you're right to only dip Rogue (or similar). You'll basically be playing a full caster with lots of skills who can later transition into dealing damage, but by that point you're likely running into more opponents immune to sneak attack than not. You can pick up Golem Strike on the Wizard list, and Grave Strike from Advanced Learning, but those compete with Wraithstrike for your swift action. You could cast one extended, then cast the other extended the next turn, and continue alternating those if needed.

Psychic Rogue is definitely a better choice for a 1-level dip IMO. That allows you to use dorjes of any psionic powers on the class list, and you should be able to put those in wand chambers. Also keep in mind that you can price a dorje based on the lowest level a given power appears for any class, not the level it shows on the Psychic Rogue list. Hustle and Chameleon are generally worthwhile. Plus it allows you to take psionic feats, like Up The Walls which is fantastic in the early levels.

[Anthrowhale]

Speaking of which, what path should I focus on for delivering Sneak Attacks?

The Poison Ring from Dragon Compendium allows you to hit with a touch attack which might help compensate for a low BAB.

For reliably triggering sneak attack, consider using Heroics to pick up Adaptable Flanker and then carrying a one-handed reach weapon like a small longspear or later Thunderlance.



Should I try to use weapons?

Weapons might be sometimes useful in the early levels, at least.



I've never looked at skill retraining before. So it... just kind of lets you ignore the normal limitations? Sort of?

Yes, but only for skills which were at some point a class skill and only 4 skill points/level from one skill to one skill.

[Rebel7284]

Speaking of which, what path should I focus on for delivering Sneak Attacks?


I suggest Disintegrate from 30 feet away while [Greater] invisible.



Or should I just focus on spellcasting? And treat Sneak Attack as a helpful bonus that applies to some of my spells?


Yeah, basically this. You're still real fragile with mostly D4 HD. While it's possible for certain builds to persist enough defensive buffs to become a gish with a D4, it's a lot less efficient than just being a Wizard. You get a bunch of extra utility due to the extra skills which is helpful and since the sneak attack triggers with each qualifying attack roll, it will come up every few encounter anyway.




I hadn't even thought to check if Elven Generalist altered class skills. Getting Search as a class skill would certainly help. But it only becomes a class skill for the levels where I actually take Elven Generalist, right? So at most Wizard 1, Wizard 3, and Wizard 5?


Correct, you would need to time those remaining 4 ranks during these three levels.




Is Elven Generalist level 3 compatible with Eidetic Spellcaster? Eidetic Spellcaster loses the Familiar, and Elven Generalist 3 modifies the familiar.


I believe that the most common ruling is that once you lose a class feature, it can't be lost (or be modified further) by another ACF.
With that said, you should still be able to take the substitution level for the class skill.
You may want to ask your DM in case they use something else besides the most common ruling.
As an aside, doubling the familiar bonus can be a pretty nifty ability to have (+4 Fort Save is handy on a Wizard!). Unless Eidetic Spellcaster is central to your theme or you KNOW your DM is really into destroying spellbooks, keeping the double familiar bonus is nifty!



And is Spontaneous Divination compatible with Elven Generalist 5? Elven Generalist 5 modifies the bonus feat, and Spontaneous Divination trades out that same bonus feat.


Well it's still called "Bonus Feat" in the text of the ACF, so it probably still works. But again, might be worthwhile to confirm.



Forestlord elf is a nice catch. But I'm not sure it's more helpful here than fire elf, gray elf, or sun elf. Forestlord would get me better skill point efficiency. But the other three would give me an Int bonus, and thus more skill points.

Good point, as a Wizard, you definitely benefit more from a higher int, especially in the long run!

Edit:
Depending on the optimization level of your table and the starting level, you can ask if your character can be a Forestlord elf who was later reincarnated as an INT elf.

Edit2:
Actually, considering that you get 4x Int Skills at first level, Int elf is indeed optimal for the whole career.

[Vizzerdrix]

I read the title as- A Fairy Tropical Unseen Seer. I was all excited to help make a jungle grig caster. :sigh:


Edit because auto correct it a jerk.

[Maat Mons]

I consistently misread my own thread title as "A Fairy Typical Unseen Seer."