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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Invocation for replacing an EB beam with a different cantrip



Greywander
2021-06-20, 03:13 PM
I got to thinking about this after I rediscovered the Kiss of Mephistopholes invocation from an old UA that didn't end up making it into print. This invocation allowed you to cast Fireball as a BA after hitting a target with EB, but you had to cast it on the target of your EB. As I thought about possible tweaks to make this more workable, I was reminded of an idea I may have posted here before at some point, where you can sub in the effects of a different cantrip in the place of one of your EB beams.

One of the common complaints about the warlock is that EB is the only viable damage cantrip. Even without invocations, it's still as strong or stronger than any of the other options available to you. I know a lot of people would probably be interested in playing a warlock that used a different cantrip if that cantrip had the same support as EB. The ability to sub a different cantrip's effects in the place of an EB beam would kind of achieve this purpose, allowing the player to make use of a different cantrip while still enjoying all the other benefits of EB with its invocations.

Now, there are some potential pitfalls we need to avoid. First up, scaling. If you replace one beam, then the cantrip being subbed in should be cast unscaled. For example, subbing in a Ray of Frost would always deal 1d8 damage, no matter what your level was. Related to scaling is rider effects. While a cantrip's damage does scale, their rider usually does not. If we can replace more than one beam, then we can potentially apply a rider effect multiple times. Another pitfall is to consider how a different cantrip might interact with EB invocations. One in particular is to consider Eldritch Spear being applied to something like Thunderclap.

Here's one possible write up for such an invocation:


Mutated Blast
Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip
When you cast eldritch blast, you may replace one of the beams created by the spell with the effects of a different cantrip you know. That cantrip must use an attack roll or saving throw, and must have a range of at least 10 feet. That cantrip's effect is unscaled, e.g. if you choose chill touch it will deal 1d8 necrotic damage, regardless of your level.

The cantrip's effect is merely replacing the normal effect of eldritch blast, and you still treat the the spell as eldritch blast and not as the cantrip whose effect is being used. As such, you still use the same spellcasting ability score, and the effect still benefits from any invocation that applies to your eldritch blast.

By making it count as EB and not the cantrip you're subbing in, this can help to avoid unexpected interactions, e.g. a cleric applying Potent Spellcasting when they sub in Sacred Flame. It also allows us to recycle the existing EB invocations, rather than coming up with a brand new set of invocations specific to each cantrip. Since it uses the same spellcasting ability as EB, it creates more flexibility to grab something from another class.

Another possibility might be to allow multiple beams to be replaced, but each one needs to be replaced with a different cantrip. This allows you to apply multiple riders at the cost of needing to know more cantrips. Not sure I'm on board with this, as it almost seems like it penalizes you for not doing this. If you can only replace one beam, there's still utility in getting multiple damage cantrips (since you can choose which effect to use), but you would no longer feel compelled to.

Another option might be to wait to make the replacement until after we hit something with the beam. If the replacement effect uses a saving throw, perhaps the save could be bypassed as you already hit the target with an attack (for something like Acid Splash, the secondary target would still need to make a save). This way, you can at least be sure that as long as one beam hits, you can apply the replacement effect, rather than applying it to a beam first and then missing with that beam and being unable to apply it to a second beam.

Maybe the invocation should give you a free cantrip? Anyway, what thoughts do you have on this? Can we make it better? Or is it just a bad idea altogether?

luuma
2021-06-21, 08:47 AM
When i saw this thread I assumed it'd be an invocation that let you grant any cantrip that deals damage the benefits of your other invocations that interact with eldritch blast

I love this a lot more though. Good job dodging the scag cantrips, too! This looks completely balanced, and far more fun to use than any of the other EB invocations. Frankly, this could read "one or more of the beams (though no two beams can use the same cantrip)" and its balance would still be absolutely fine, if a little complex

quindraco
2021-06-21, 04:36 PM
I think a better approach is rewriting the EB-specific invocations to work on more Warlock cantrips, and then shipping other invocations that buff other Warlock cantrips in specific ways.

As a lightweight example, if you re-write the invocations to work on any Warlock cantrip with a range that isn't Self and makes a melee or ranged spell attack against the spell's target, the only cantrip you expand them to is Chill Touch. Then you can write an invocation to make Chill Touch better, as you see fit (e.g. you could increase its damage die to d12 against wounded targets, mimicking Toll the Dead, or you could have it knock targets prone, like Sapping Sting, or both, or whatever).

PhoenixPhyre
2021-06-23, 11:28 AM
Random related thought--

what if EB wasn't a spell, but was instead an invocation/class feature that broke other (attack) cantrips into multiple (non-scaling) beams and/or allowed mixing and matching (ie at level 5 you could do one beam of firebolt and one beam of chill touch.

Old Harry MTX
2021-06-24, 03:10 AM
A mechanic that allows at 5th, 11th and 17th level to cast 2, 3 and then 4 cantrips with a single action at their lowest level, considering them as a single spell, could be very interesting.

In the case, for example, of an AoE cantrip, like Acid Splash, how would an invocation like Agonizing Blast or Grasp of Hadar behave? Do you add the effect to each creature that failed the Dexterity saving throw, or you just can't do it since Acid Splash has no attack rolls, and those invocations explicitly apply "when you hit a creature"?

PhoenixPhyre
2021-06-24, 11:21 AM
A mechanic that allows at 5th, 11th and 17th level to cast 2, 3 and then 4 cantrips with a single action at their lowest level, considering them as a single spell, could be very interesting.

In the case, for example, of an AoE cantrip, like Acid Splash, how would an invocation like Agonizing Blast or Grasp of Hadar behave? Do you add the effect to each creature that failed the Dexterity saving throw, or you just can't do it since Acid Splash has no attack rolls, and those invocations explicitly apply "when you hit a creature"?

I'd say you'd need to either
* restrict the EB adjustment to attack cantrips (meh)
* rewrite the other invocations to handle save cantrips
* just deny the effect on anything but an attack cantrip

quinron
2021-06-28, 09:04 PM
I'd say you'd need to either
* restrict the EB adjustment to attack cantrips (meh)
* rewrite the other invocations to handle save cantrips
* just deny the effect on anything but an attack cantrip

You could just go the Twinned Spell route and only allow it on cantrips that only target one creature.