"Miss Starshine, Will You Do Me the Honor of Becoming Mrs. Whatever-My-Last-Name-Is?"

[Maat Mons]

When Elan proposes, those are the exact words he should use.

[Peelee]

Why would he not take the name Starshine? It's a cool name.

[Maat Mons]

Haley might insist on changing her name, just because she's tired of hearing that one song (https://youtu.be/-8jsHLP4L9I) every morning.

[Emanick]

I assume Elan uses Norse naming conventions and will ask Haley to become Mrs. Tarquinsson.

[Fyraltari]

I assume Elan uses Norse naming conventions and will ask Haley to become Mrs. Tarquinsson.

Please, Mrs. Elansmotherjarson. Though really in practice that convention would just mean she'd keep her existing surname.

Also I think Elan just simply doesn't have a surname.

[Quebbster]

Also I think Elan just simply doesn't have a surname.
Sure he does: the Bard.

[Precure]

As a compromise, how about Starquimom?

[KorvinStarmast]

I assume Elan uses Norse naming conventions and will ask Haley to become Mrs. Tarquinsson. Ya got me. I laughed. :smallcool:

[MartianInvader]

"Ms. Starshine, might I have the honor of becoming Mr. Starshine?"

[Metastachydium]

"Ms. Starshine, might I have the honor of becoming Mr. Starshine?"

Well, if the alternative is staying Tarquinsson or Haley losing her surname (because not having one is so very MYSTERIOUS)… I could see that happen.

[hroþila]

It would never be Tarquinsson. Either Elan's family would use a patronymic system, in which case Haley would never adopt Elan's patronymic anyway because she already has her own last name (and if anything she'd get her own separate patronymic, i.e. Iansdóttir), or it wouldn't, in which case Elan's last name would be an actual surname that would predate Tarquin and not have anything to do with Tarquin's own first name.

[Metastachydium]

It would never be Tarquinsson. Either Elan's family would use a patronymic system, in which case Haley would never adopt Elan's patronymic anyway because she already has her own last name (and if anything she'd get her own separate patronymic, i.e. Iansdóttir)

I never said nothin' about Haley. I said he could ditch Tarquinsson (which, frankly, I don't actually suspect to be Elan's last name) via becoming Mr. Starshine.

[Schroeswald]

As a compromise, how about Starquimom?

I believe that implies their child’s name will be Starquin which I personally am not a fan of.

[arimareiji]

It may be a bit too silly, but now I'm attached to Haley Starshine X Elan Moonbeam.

[denthor]

Haley might insist on changing her name, just because she's tired of hearing that one song (https://youtu.be/-8jsHLP4L9I) every morning.

You got me. Your YouTube Foo is great

[Quebbster]

It would never be Tarquinsson. Either Elan's family would use a patronymic system, in which case Haley would never adopt Elan's patronymic anyway because she already has her own last name (and if anything she'd get her own separate patronymic, i.e. Iansdóttir), or it wouldn't, in which case Elan's last name would be an actual surname that would predate Tarquin and not have anything to do with Tarquin's own first name.
Tarquin's full name could be Tarquin Tarquinsson.

[Mariele]

Tarquin's full name could be Tarquin Tarquinsson.

It's Tarquins all the way down.

[knag]

When Elan proposes, those are the exact words he should use.

If she currently uses Ms., why would she switch to Mrs.? That defeats the point of Ms.

[Peelee]

If she currently uses Ms., why would she switch to Mrs.? That defeats the point of Ms.

"Ms." typically denotes unmarried. "Mrs." typically denotes married. The suggestion was a marriage proposal.

[ORione]

"Ms." typically denotes unmarried. "Mrs." typically denotes married. The suggestion was a marriage proposal.

No, "Miss" denotes unmarried. "Ms." is ambiguous.

[Precure]

Miss denotes unmarried, not Ms.

[knag]

"Ms." typically denotes unmarried. "Mrs." typically denotes married. The suggestion was a marriage proposal.

I gently suggest you are mistaken. Miss denotes unmarried and Mrs. denotes unmarried. The abbreviation Ms., which fell out of use in the Anglosphere, was revived by second wave feminists as an honorific that did not imply marital status. Even in its earlier usage it did not denote an unmarried status.

[Precure]

Miss denotes unmarried and Mrs. denotes unmarried

No, Mrs. denotes a married woman.

[Maat Mons]

Well, blast. I thought Ms. was just an abbreviation for Miss.

I was aware of an honorific, pronounced "miz," which doesn't denote marital status, but I never knew how to spell it. It looks like, once again, I've been mispronouncing and misspelling things for decades.

I guess I'll go edit the thread title.

Edit: It turns out, just changing Ms. to Miss would have put me over the character limit. So after some deliberation, I changed Would to Will. Now that I think about it, that's more grammatically correct anyway.

[Precure]

They all were abbreviations of "Mistress" at some point.

[Peelee]

No, "Miss" denotes unmarried. "Ms." is ambiguous.


Miss denotes unmarried, not Ms.


I gently suggest you are mistaken.

Both are acceptable. Though I will cop to the neutral usage of it being more common and I gave the wrong impression, in this case where Harleys status is known I didn't really care to make the distinction.

[Precure]

Both are acceptable.

How? Whole point of Ms. is leaving the marital status ambiguous.

[Peelee]

How? Whole point of Ms. is leaving the marital status ambiguous.

I, unfortunately, am not the ultimate arbiter of linguistic convention and usage. However, language evolution should not be surprising and there are numerous examples of a word where the whole point turned into something else (eg "literally" gaining the additional meaning of "figuratively").

tl;dr - don't shoot the messenger.

[arimareiji]

They all were abbreviations of "Mistress" at some point.

Language evolution can be fun. (^_^)b

One of my favorites is how the English "yell" diverged: Whatever "yell" connoted in English at the time it was adopted by Japanese, now "erru" would be an enthusiastic cheer. Whereas in English, it currently has strong connotations of anger and harsh criticism.

Iirc there are better examples (i.e. same-language) of how a word can twist around to mean the opposite (such as through ingrained sarcasm), but I don't recall them right off.

[Precure]

One of my favorites is how the English "yell" diverged: Whatever "yell" connoted in English at the time it was adopted by Japanese, now "erru" would be an enthusiastic cheer. Whereas in English, it currently has strong connotations of anger and harsh criticism.

"Erru" also could be used to transcribe aile, french word for wing. Like "giving wings" to people by cheering for them, loftying their spirits.

[Fyraltari]

"Erru" also could be used to transcribe aile, french word for wing. Like "giving wings" to people by cheering for them, loftying their spirits.

That's a really stretchy etimology. Maybe the verb "héler" "call from afar" but that still sounds less likely than "yell".

[skim172]

The simplest explanation is that Elan is from a mononymous culture, where individuals do not carry a family name. It's common practice among many cultures in South Asia. The "Individual name - Family name" format is popular worldwide, but by no means universal.

For example - in Japan, one current issue right now is the legal requirement that married women must take on the name of their husband (and I mean real current - the Japanese supreme court just issued a verdict upholding the existing law literally yesterday). But Japan's nearest neighbor, Korea, has a long-held traditional practice of women not changing their family name upon marriage. If a woman changes her family name in Korea, it'd be rather scandalous to a traditional family.

Consequently, when a Korean couple immigrates to someplace like the USA, the wife may be misunderstood to be making a modern feminist statement by retaining her last name. Or often she'll just change it just to avoid awkward questions from new neighbors - which can lead to awkward questions from family back home.

In most Spanish and Portuguese-speaking cultures, traditional practice is to have two surnames, which creates lots of headaches when immigrating to English-speaking countries. One client at my workplace had endless annoyance because some helpful government functionary at some point had decided she'd incorrectly filled out her documentation and instead registered her first surname as her middle name. This meant some legal records had her with two surnames, while other legal records did not - leading to a situation where she had different legal names depending on which specific government agency she was dealing with.

So, Haley doesn't need to take on Elan's family name (if it exists), and Elan doesn't need to take on Haley's family name (if it is indeed a family name, and not a second individual name, maybe she doesn't have a family name either), unless the societal and legal requirements of the community they live in demand it.

Elan clearly comes from a rather flexible culture when it comes to naming practices. His mother is an unusual example of an individual who apparently has no name at all. A "nonymous" individual, if you will.

[Fyraltari]

Elan clearly comes from a rather flexible culture when it comes to naming practices. His mother is an unusual example of an individual who apparently has no name at all. A "nonymous" individual, if you will.
It's more common than you'd think. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

{snip very informative post} Elan clearly comes from a rather flexible culture when it comes to naming practices. His mother is an unusual example of an individual who apparently has no name at all. A "nonymous" individual, if you will. Elan Onymous, then? :smallbiggrin:

[Metastachydium]

Elan might not have a last name.

That's Girard's fault! If that nasty bastard was a bit more considerate, the bard would have two names (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) (of which one is, by necessity, the last)!

[arimareiji]

That's a really stretchy etimology. Maybe the verb "héler" "call from afar" but that still sounds less likely than "yell".

Indeed. I went back to make sure -- I shamefully mixed up エッル (erru) with エール (eeru), but it is a loanword that stems from the English "yell" (https://kafkafuura.wordpress.com/2017/08/16/yell/).

(Not that we have any room to complain, considering we turned the Japanese karaoke /kah-rah-oh-kay/ into "Carrie Okie" among other loanword mutilations. (^_^)° )

[Precure]

That's a really stretchy etimology. Maybe the verb "héler" "call from afar" but that still sounds less likely than "yell".

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22%E3%82%A8%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%22+%22aile %22&source=lmns&bih=964&biw=602&client=tablet-android-samsung-nf-rev1&prmd=ivn&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiDxOGa6LLxAhUD0bsIHfebDNsQ_AUoAHoECAAQA w

[Fyraltari]

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22%E3%82%A8%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%22+%22aile %22&source=lmns&bih=964&biw=602&client=tablet-android-samsung-nf-rev1&prmd=ivn&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiDxOGa6LLxAhUD0bsIHfebDNsQ_AUoAHoECAAQA w
I don't understand.

[Peelee]

I don't understand.

Clearly you should learn Japanese.

[Precure]

I don't understand.

エール could be used to write both the english "Yell" and the french "Aile", and it's used that way.


Indeed. I went back to make sure -- I shamefully mixed up エッル (erru) with エール (eeru)

I think erru in english writing is the same sound as eeru in romaji, no? A use of double consonant implies a longer vowel before according to orthography rules.

[Fyraltari]

エール could be used to write both the english "Yell" and the french "Aile", and it's used that way.

That I got, but the idea that the japanese got to using エール to denote a cheer from the French doesn't stick. Because the French don't use the word "aile" for anything related to cheering.

[pearl jam]

エッル　and エール sound very different to Japanese speakers but the distinction can be difficult for non-Japanese speakers to recognize. On top of this is the issue of trying to reverse engineer a word transliterated into Japanese back into the source language. Some cases are fairly straightforward, of course, but in some cases if you don't actually know the original source word to begin with, you'll basically just be guessing at what the original pronunciation may have been.

[Precure]

That I got, but the idea that the japanese got to using エール to denote a cheer from the French doesn't stick. Because the French don't use the word "aile" for anything related to cheering.

Oh no, I was talking about the japanese. It's their interpretation to link these two unrelated words.

[pearl jam]

Oh no, I was talking about the japanese. It's their interpretation to link these two unrelated words.

I can't say whether japanese people link these two words or not, but that they may transliterate them both the same way doesn't necessarily imply that they view the words as linked in any other way than happening to sound similar to the japanese speaker's ear.

[Peelee]

For what little it's worth, and having almost zero context or knowledge outside of this, I'm inclined to listen to the guy in Tokyo.

[Precure]

For what little it's worth, and having almost zero context or knowledge outside of this, I'm inclined to listen to the guy in Tokyo.

For what? We're not disagreeing on anything?

[Peelee]

For what? We're not disagreeing on anything?

I didn't mean "over anyone else". I was just trying to say that there is a likely authority based on publicly visible information, in an amusing way.

They can't all be winners.

[arimareiji]

エッル　and エール sound very different to Japanese speakers but the distinction can be difficult for non-Japanese speakers to recognize. On top of this is the issue of trying to reverse engineer a word transliterated into Japanese back into the source language. Some cases are fairly straightforward, of course, but in some cases if you don't actually know the original source word to begin with, you'll basically just be guessing at what the original pronunciation may have been.

Well-said. (^_^)b

If it helps for others, here's a snippet from the song I previously linked: https://www.youtube.com/embed/hIeS-RWfM7Q?start=78&end=84

今　エールを送ろう / ima eeru wo okurou / Let's send up a cheer
full lyrics (https://kafkafuura.wordpress.com/2017/08/16/yell/)

[skim172]

It's more common than you'd think. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html)

Demonstrating that hobgoblins have such a precise language and profoundly detailed memory that names are unnecessary. They can accurately identify and communicate referents without resorting to manufactured title, like those primitive humans.

Imagine, if instead having to say, "Hey Jill, where's Jack? I last saw him with Bob", you could instead say, "Hey, Person Who Went Up A Hill To Fetch A Pail Of Water That One Time, where is the Person Who Home-Invaded And Assaulted A Giant And Also Grows Beans? I last saw him with Person Who Famously Can Fix It, Yes He Can" and both of you would be in perfect understanding.

Based on this revelation of hobgoblin language, we can then speculate that named hobgoblins - such as Jirix - only have names for purposes of communicating with non-hobgoblins. This is further supported by Jirix being appointed the leader for Gobbotopia, as he likely has extensive diplomatic experience with non-hobbos.

[Metastachydium]

Demonstrating that hobgoblins have such a precise language and profoundly detailed memory that names are unnecessary. They can accurately identify and communicate referents without resorting to manufactured title, like those primitive humans.


Also, they can see the future!

[Fyraltari]

Also, they can see the future!
Or that mother went to see the Oracle of the Sunken Valley.

"What name will fit my children's glorious destinies, Oh Oracle?
-Well..."

[WanderingMist]

Please, Mrs. Elansmotherjarson. Though really in practice that convention would just mean she'd keep her existing surname.

Also I think Elan just simply doesn't have a surname.
Why is there a "jar" in there?

Language evolution can be fun. (^_^)b

One of my favorites is how the English "yell" diverged: Whatever "yell" connoted in English at the time it was adopted by Japanese, now "erru" would be an enthusiastic cheer. Whereas in English, it currently has strong connotations of anger and harsh criticism.

Iirc there are better examples (i.e. same-language) of how a word can twist around to mean the opposite (such as through ingrained sarcasm), but I don't recall them right off.
Hmm, I wouldn't say yelling has inherent connotations of harsh criticism. Anger, maybe. But "yell" can be totally neutral. "There's a bunch of people yelling over there" just implies there's a racket in some direction.

Nimrod, thanks to Bugs Bunny. A mighty hunter transformed into a synonym for "idiot".

"Erru" also could be used to transcribe aile, french word for wing. Like "giving wings" to people by cheering for them, loftying their spirits.
Is "aile" not pronounced "eye-lay"? Because my first instinct was to transliterate it that way, which would result in アイレ.

エール could be used to write both the english "Yell" and the french "Aile", and it's used that way.



I think erru in english writing is the same sound as eeru in romaji, no? A use of double consonant implies a longer vowel before according to orthography rules.
According to whose orthography rules? A double consonant implies a short vowel in English. Contrast "hopping" vs. "hoping", "tilling vs. "tiling", and "winning" vs. "wining". "Erru" would come across as "AIR-oo" to a native English speaker, and if they were unaware that "eeru" was romaji, it would come across as "EE (as in tree)-roo" to them. More accurately, English doesn't have vowel length at all. What are called "long" and "short" vowels are simply different vowels entirely.

[Fyraltari]

Why is there a "jar" in there?
I don't speak Icelandic so I aped "Loki Laufeyjarson" (Loki son of the woman Laufey) as opposed to the patronymic "Loki Farbautison" (Loki son of Farbauti). If Elan is indeed from a culture with that naming convention, I suspect he'd rather claim lineage from his mother than father.



Is "aile" not pronounced "eye-lay"?
Nope. "Ai" makes an [e] sound, like "ea" in "bread" and the last "e" is a schwa [ə].

[hroþila]

I don't know if that's on Marvel but it should be Fárbautason. And Elansmóðurson if we stick to the Norse I guess? Elansmotherson or maybe even Elansmetherson if we adopted it to English (via Old English Elanes modor/meder sunu, where modor/meder is the genitive of modor)

[Fyraltari]

I don't know if that's on Marvel but it should be Fárbautason. And Elansmóðurson if we stick to the Norse I guess? Elansmotherson or maybe even Elansmetherson if we adopted it to English (via Old English Elanes modor/meder sunu, where modor/meder is the genitive of modor)

I don't read Marvel comics but I've been told their Loki's (biological) father is Laufey anyway, so...

[WanderingMist]

I don't read Marvel comics but I've been told their Loki's (biological) father is Laufey anyway, so...

Nope, Laufey is his mother.


I don't know if that's on Marvel but it should be Fárbautason. And Elansmóðurson if we stick to the Norse I guess? Elansmotherson or maybe even Elansmetherson if we adopted it to English (via Old English Elanes modor/meder sunu, where modor/meder is the genitive of modor)

Loki didn't know who his father was, or maybe he was rejecting his jötunn heritage, so he took his mother's name instead.

[Fyraltari]

Nope, Laufey is his mother.

I may have confused with the movies.

[hroþila]

No, I mean, formally it wouldn't be **Fórbautison but Fórbautason. I wasn't talking about his parentage or about his actual "legal" name, but about Old Norse morphology :smallredface:

[Fyraltari]

No, I mean, formally it wouldn't be **Fórbautison but Fórbautason. I wasn't talking about his parentage or about his actual "legal" name, but about Old Norse morphology :smallredface:

As I said, I don't speak Icelandic. Or Old Norse. Or Modern Norse.

[arimareiji]

Hmm, I wouldn't say yelling has inherent connotations of harsh criticism. Anger, maybe. But "yell" can be totally neutral. "There's a bunch of people yelling over there" just implies there's a racket in some direction.

It can be neutral, but the more common usages are for an angry loud voice or for harsh criticism e.g. "After the customer left, my boss yelled at me for ten solid minutes" (harsh criticism, not necessarily in an angry or loud voice).

Because the negative connotations are so common, most people would infer a deprecatory context from the example you gave even if your intended meaning were neutral. It's safer to use it neutrally if you're calling attention to something the listener can hear themselves, or there's clear context otherwise e.g. "John was so excited to know the answer, he practically yelled it out".

[brian 333]

Why would Elan and Haley marry? That's been the death of more sitcoms than Cousin Oliver.

What they should do is want to get married but always have some timing or jealousy issue between them so that one wants to marry and the other doesn't then by the time the other is ready the one is unavailable.

Save the wedding for the series finale, possibly as a surprise as both are supposed to marry someone else but elope instead.

[hungrycrow]

Why would Elan and Haley marry? That's been the death of more sitcoms than Cousin Oliver.

What they should do is want to get married but always have some timing or jealousy issue between them so that one wants to marry and the other doesn't then by the time the other is ready the one is unavailable.

Save the wedding for the series finale, possibly as a surprise as both are supposed to marry someone else but elope instead.

There is plenty of sitcom drama for a newly wedded couple, like balancing starting a family with their adventuring careers, or dealing with in-laws that want to murder them.

[truemane]

Language evolution can be fun. (^_^)b

[...]

Iirc there are better examples (i.e. same-language) of how a word can twist around to mean the opposite (such as through ingrained sarcasm), but I don't recall them right off.
There are so many! Language is magic.

Bully used to mean a good person. Then it came to mean your friends, your mates, your ride-or-die, and then it was you and your bully-boys against the world, which turned it into a word for 'your gang.' And it was only a hop, skip and a jump to its modern meaning.

Smart used to mean painful or searing (we still say 'that smarts') but people used it to refer to a sharp or stinging wit, and the old version fell out of use.

Nice used to mean weak or flaky. It was a bad, bad word. But walked its way through 'shy' and 'reserved' and 'inoffensive' to arrive at its current meaning.

Terrific used to mean full of terror. But it suffered the same sort of fate as awesome and awful (and 'fantastic' a little bit) by being diluted through overuse and then flipped around.

Sanction used to mean a promise or an oath. And then it blurred a little into meaning a thing that compels you to be better. And so it wound up being its own opposite, meaning both approval AND disapproval (both in the way of things that might make others be better). This is an example of an autoantonym, a word that is its own opposite.

Passion used to mean suffering. The path to its current meaning is easily Google-able, but not discussable due to the Forum Rules.

Egregious is an example of one that flipped due to sarcasm. It technically means 'stands out' and used to be used for things that stands out for positive reasons. But centuries of sarcastic use have
turned it to something that stands out for negative reasons.

[hroþila]

'Silly' originally meant "blessed, fortunate, happy".

[truemane]

'Silly' originally meant "blessed, fortunate, happy".
It did! From Middle English seelie.

[Maat Mons]

I used to know a guy who was engaged for many, many years without ever marrying. There weren't any hijinks or drama involved though. His fiancé literally wanted to have the wedding "when the stars are right." She was really into astrology.

The stars were only right a few times every year. And she was insistent on an outdoor wedding, so any of those occasions that didn't line up with nice, warm, summer months were right out. Every few years, when the stars aligned during the right season, they'd schedule a wedding.

But, at least up until when I fell out of contact with him, every time, she canceled the wedding because the weather wasn't to her liking that day. I'm not sure if this was just a practical concern because the wedding was happening out in the elements, or if she regarded it as a bad omen.



Hmm, so Silly Fae and Unsilly Fae. I like this.

[Kish]

Why would Elan and Haley marry? That's been the death of more sitcoms than Cousin Oliver.
And if this was a sitcom, that would matter.

For that matter, if this was the webcomic equivalent of a sitcom (not that people haven't argued that it should be, usually as part of being annoyed with something Rich had done, not not including when Elan and Haley got together), two of the protagonists would not have already been in a happy, monogamous relationship devoid of serious drama for slightly over 2/3rds of the comic's run.

[Ruck]

Why would Elan and Haley marry? That's been the death of more sitcoms than Cousin Oliver.

What they should do is want to get married but always have some timing or jealousy issue between them so that one wants to marry and the other doesn't then by the time the other is ready the one is unavailable.

Save the wedding for the series finale, possibly as a surprise as both are supposed to marry someone else but elope instead.


And if this was a sitcom, that would matter.

For that matter, if this was the webcomic equivalent of a sitcom (not that people haven't argued that it should be, usually as part of being annoyed with something Rich had done, not not including when Elan and Haley got together), two of the protagonists would not have already been in a happy, monogamous relationship devoid of serious drama for slightly over 2/3rds of the comic's run.

Plus, Elan has already established that, even as a Bard, he prioritizes their relationship being happy and honest over having wacky sitcom hijinks. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)

[Aedilred]

How? Whole point of Ms. is leaving the marital status ambiguous.

"Ms" has been/is generally used by various groups of women:
1) Divorced women;
2) Women who are in long-term committed relationships but who are not married;
3) Women "of a certain age" who are not married and want to avoid the inevitable questions invited by using "Miss";
4) Women who deliberately reject the idea of their title being linked to their marriage status

There is also a fifth category, of women who don't deliberately use the title but have it effectively conferred upon them because they don't specify any title and people use Ms to refer to them to avoid causing offence, no matter what their own preference. (I have known at least one woman who insisted on "Miss" while unmarried and found the assumption of "Ms" irksome).

Oh and let's throw in a sixth: married women who want to continue using their maiden name for professional purposes to maintain an established reputation but use "Mrs Husbandname" in their private life.


While in every instance, the purpose is indeed to leave marital status ambiguous, it doesn't necessarily follow that the title will remain in use forever if circumstances change. In any of the first three cases, it would be perfectly reasonable for someone who has formerly used the title "Ms" to adopt "Mrs" when they get married (remarried, in the first case).

It would be a mistake to assume that all women using "Ms" are in the fourth category. While that may be the most common (and I'm not sure it is) that is a relatively recent development and far from universal.

I would also note with reference to Haley specifically that in #225, V, her best friend and who could be expected to get her title correct, referred to her as "Miss Starshine". So it may be that if Haley has been referred to as "Ms" subsequently, it's because she's in category 2 or 5 above rather than 4 (we can rule out 1 or 3 fairly easily, and 6 doesn't apply since Haley isn't married).

(Albeit, it probably really reflects a change in Rich's attitude more than anything in-universe).

[Peelee]

And if this was a sitcom, that would matter.

For that matter, if this was the webcomic equivalent of a sitcom (not that people haven't argued that it should be, usually as part of being annoyed with something Rich had done, not not including when Elan and Haley got together), two of the protagonists would not have already been in a happy, monogamous relationship devoid of serious drama for slightly over 2/3rds of the comic's run.

Three, isn't it, with Roy and Celia? I originally counted four but V and Inky had serious drama at about the halfway mark at this point (assuming they were both relatively happy until then).

[Metastachydium]

Three, isn't it, with Roy and Celia?

Arguably, half of a couple dying and the other half gettting his rotting corpse reanimated as a bone golem and then losing it counts as serious drama.

[Peelee]

Arguably, half of a couple dying and the other half gettting his rotting corpse reanimated as a bone golem and then losing it counts as serious drama.

Ah, yeah, that's fair.

[pearl jam]

Arguably, half of a couple dying and the other half gettting his rotting corpse reanimated as a bone golem and then losing it counts as serious drama.

Ah, yeah, that's fair.

You know what they say, "Humor is tragedy serious drama plus time." :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

You know what they say, "Humor is tragedy serious drama plus time." :smallbiggrin:

Tragedy is when I stub my toe. Comedy is when you fall into a manhole and die.

[pearl jam]

Tragedy is when I stub my toe. Comedy is when you fall into a manhole and die.

Am I going to need to reconsider my genius endorsement? :smallfrown:

[Emanick]

Am I going to need to reconsider my genius endorsement? :smallfrown:

No, geniuses are allowed to quote Mel Brooks. I think there’s a Genius bylaw specifically condoning it.

[pearl jam]

https://i.imgur.com/ijnwm2F.jpg

[Peelee]

No, geniuses are allowed to quote Mel Brooks. I think there’s a Genius bylaw specifically condoning it.

I maintain that the 2008 film version of The Producers is the absolute pinnacle of comedy. It even had Richard Kind!

[Precure]

"Ms" has been/is generally used by various groups of women:
1) Divorced women;
2) Women who are in long-term committed relationships but who are not married;
3) Women "of a certain age" who are not married and want to avoid the inevitable questions invited by using "Miss";
4) Women who deliberately reject the idea of their title being linked to their marriage status

There is also a fifth category, of women who don't deliberately use the title but have it effectively conferred upon them because they don't specify any title and people use Ms to refer to them to avoid causing offence, no matter what their own preference. (I have known at least one woman who insisted on "Miss" while unmarried and found the assumption of "Ms" irksome).

Oh and let's throw in a sixth: married women who want to continue using their maiden name for professional purposes to maintain an established reputation but use "Mrs Husbandname" in their private life.


While in every instance, the purpose is indeed to leave marital status ambiguous, it doesn't necessarily follow that the title will remain in use forever if circumstances change. In any of the first three cases, it would be perfectly reasonable for someone who has formerly used the title "Ms" to adopt "Mrs" when they get married (remarried, in the first case).

It would be a mistake to assume that all women using "Ms" are in the fourth category. While that may be the most common (and I'm not sure it is) that is a relatively recent development and far from universal.

I would also note with reference to Haley specifically that in #225, V, her best friend and who could be expected to get her title correct, referred to her as "Miss Starshine". So it may be that if Haley has been referred to as "Ms" subsequently, it's because she's in category 2 or 5 above rather than 4 (we can rule out 1 or 3 fairly easily, and 6 doesn't apply since Haley isn't married).

(Albeit, it probably really reflects a change in Rich's attitude more than anything in-universe).

The point of discussion was knag's posting of "If she currently uses Ms., why would she switch to Mrs.? That defeats the point of Ms." (since this thread's original name was "Ms. Starshine, Would You Do Me the Honor of Becoming Mrs. Whatever-My-Last-Name-") and Peele's counter-claim of "Ms. typically denotes unmarried. Mrs. typically denotes married." which we disagreed with. Haley's own preference for "miss" had nothing to do with it.

[Maat Mons]

The Producers gave me a nightmare. Well, The Producers, Inglorious Bastards, and being severely ill. I watched Inglorious Bastards and The Producers back-to-back to distract me from how sick I was. And that night I had a fever dream combining those two films. It was … an experience.

[Emanick]

I maintain that the 2008 film version of The Producers is the absolute pinnacle of comedy. It even had Richard Kind!

I'll make a note of it! I've never seen it.

[Ruck]

I maintain that the 2008 film version of The Producers is the absolute pinnacle of comedy. It even had Richard Kind!

Better than the original? I'm innately skeptical.

[Peelee]

Peele
He may have more fame, money, and quality productions than I do, but I have more E's.

I'll make a note of it! I've never seen it.
Do! I may have derped on the year, it's '05 and not '08, but it's a masterpiece.

Better than the original? I'm innately skeptical.

Do not doubt the power of Richard Kind!

Also, it's a musical while the original wasnt and songwriting is a massive strength for Mel Brooks. Casting was nigh-perfect - Nathan Lane is always solid gold, and he had enormous chemistry with Matthew Broderick, Will Ferrell when not playing the exact same character in different movies is an absolute master of comedy, innumerable minor parts are played by heavy hitters that just knock it out of the park (eg Jon Lovitz has never been unwelcome in my life, John Barrowman makes the perfect Nazi (apologies to Mr. Barrowman for that sentence, but his slow-growing wry smile and eyebrow wiggle as he belts out "wiinterr, for poolaand, and Fraaaaaaance!" just kills me), the aforementioned Richard Kind with his always-impeccable delivery, and Michael McKean getting a rare chance to caterwaul, just to name a few. I've never been a big fan of Uma Thurman but I tend to be in sparse company there, so for everyone else, hey, Uma Thurman.

And then there's the production value. It may not be terribly fair but there's just so much more in the remake, most notably in when the actual play-with-the-playmovie occurs. Everything is brighter, cleaner, richer, and more colorful. It got a lot of flak for evoking the stage-play feel but I thought that was a strength, given the subject matter.

[Ruck]

Hmm, well, I can't find fault in any of your logic. I'm just such a big fan of the original, and, well, you know how remakes can be.

As far as the stage-play feel-- the remake is adapted from the stage version, yeah? So that only makes sense.

[Aedilred]

The point of discussion was knag's posting of "If she currently uses Ms., why would she switch to Mrs.? That defeats the point of Ms." (since this thread's original name was "Ms. Starshine, Would You Do Me the Honor of Becoming Mrs. Whatever-My-Last-Name-") and Peele's counter-claim of "Ms. typically denotes unmarried. Mrs. typically denotes married." which we disagreed with. Haley's own preference for "miss" had nothing to do with it.

Right - and the first five paragraphs of my post (out of seven) addressed this issue, before moving on to the question of Haley specifically.

[Precure]

Right - and the first five paragraphs of my post (out of seven) addressed this issue, before moving on to the question of Haley specifically.

Unless you somehow support Peele's claim of "Ms. typically denotes unmarried" with that post, I don't see anything relevant about it to our discussion.

[Quebbster]

Three, isn't it, with Roy and Celia? I originally counted four but V and Inky had serious drama at about the halfway mark at this point (assuming they were both relatively happy until then).
I wouldn't count V and Inky as a happy couple even before the soul splice. Sure, they weren't unhappy, but it was by no means a healthy relationship. Part of V's arc was realizing this.

[Kaytara]

The only person (to my knowledge) who has referred to Haley as Miss Starshine is Vaarsuvius, so great job misleading me about what ship this is about, OP

[AceOfFools]

I remember being taught in second grade that “Ms.” was the abbreviation for “Miss”. And in eighth grade that Miss, Miz/Ms, and Mrs were three distinct things.

[Precure]

The only person (to my knowledge) who has referred to Haley as Miss Starshine is Vaarsuvius, so great job misleading me about what ship this is about, OP

Well, Vaarsuvius doesn't have a surname either, so the same problem is affecting both of those ships.

[Grey Watcher]

I assume Elan uses Norse naming conventions and will ask Haley to become Mrs. Tarquinsson.

Per Haleo and Julelan, the leading candidate for Elan's surname is McTarquinson.

[russdm]

The Producers gave me a nightmare. Well, The Producers, Inglorious Bastards, and being severely ill. I watched Inglorious Bastards and The Producers back-to-back to distract me from how sick I was. And that night I had a fever dream combining those two films. It was … an experience.


Considering that one of the songs from "The Producers " was the song about springtime for Hitler and Germany, i could imagine that the gang would be singing that song will they went around killing nazi thugs or something. I don't remember much from that movie and I never saw the inglorious bastards movie but I heard about it.

I think that how gets resolved will also relate to the standard set by Daigo and Koizumi, who got ennobled by Hinjo. They used K's last name for the name of their noble house

[Peelee]

Considering that one of the songs from "The Producers " was the song about springtime for Hitler and Germany, i could imagine that the gang would be singing that song will they went around killing nazi thugs or something. I don't remember much from that movie and I never saw the inglorious bastards movie but I heard about it.

I think that how gets resolved will also relate to the standard set by Daigo and Koizumi, who got ennobled by Hinjo. They used K's last name for the name of their noble house

John Barrowman cracking the slow smile and eyebrow wiggle on the last note of "winter for Poland and Fraaaaaaaance" kills me every time.

[Precure]

I think that how gets resolved will also relate to the standard set by Daigo and Koizumi, who got ennobled by Hinjo. They used K's last name for the name of their noble house

Koizumi as in the former prime minister of Japan, or the member of S.O.S Brigade?

[Aedilred]

Unless you somehow support Peele's claim of "Ms. typically denotes unmarried" with that post, I don't see anything relevant about it to our discussion.
Once again, if you read my post you would see that overall I did agree with him, but went into rather more detail about the various permutations.

Overall, and not just in relation to my posts, is there any particular reason why you're being so unhelpfully rude?

[Precure]

Once again, if you read my post you would see that overall I did agree with him, but went into rather more detail about the various permutations.

Overall, and not just in relation to my posts, is there any particular reason why you're being so unhelpfully rude?

I fail to see which part of my posts were rude. Ms doesn't indicate that someone is unmarried, arguing otherwise is simply disrespectful.

[DLcygnet]

Well, according to the cast page (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html), his full name is Elan the Bard.

I sense Haley will be keeping her name.

[Precure]

Well, according to the cast page (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html), his full name is Elan the Bard.

I sense Haley will be keeping her name.

Haley the Bard Starshine had a nice ring to it.

[brian 333]

One quatloo says they name their firstborn twins Roy and Belkar, and that R&B refuse a showbiz career in favor of studying with the famous archwizard Vaarsvious.

[Peelee]

One quatloo says they name their firstborn twins Roy and Belkar, and that R&B refuse a showbiz career in favor of studying with the famous archwizard Vaarsvious.

Wouldn't their firstborn twins be Redcloak's neice? After all, Haley isn't exactly what you would call human, being a reincarnated Righ-Eye and all, like she tried to confess to Elan that one time.