Whisper Padlock - Sustained Smiting God?

[bsullivanp]

Been thinking about a multiclass build for my lvl 15 campaign and was surprised that I could not find more about this build because it felt VERY strong. So figured I would check in with the experts here to see if I'm missing something.

My idea is to build a Greatsword wielding Whisper Padlock (Vengeance Paladin 6/Warlock 3/College of Whispers Bard 6).

My rationale is to gain a sustained smite (or smite-like) ability over time. With the Paladin 6, I am gaining extra attack, Divine Smite, and Vow of Emnity. The Warlock 3 will give me more of a SAD build which helps make up for the loss of an ASI, while also allowing for some sustained ranged cantrip dmg (eldritch blast), and using my CHA modifier for my greatsword (Improved Pact Weapon). It also gives me access to Shield, Armor of Agathys for survivability, and the dreaded Darkness/Devil's sight if I so choose.

But the real draw for me was the 2-2nd level pact spell slots that refresh on a short rest from the Warlock, plus 5 bardic inspirations that ALSO renew on short rest that can be used to essentially add a bardic smite for 3d6 on every hit (once per turn). That is SEVEN smites I can essentially use that refresh on a short rest!

The downside is clearly missing out on 4th/5th level spells if I was to do a pure Paladin (Find Greater Steed, Banishment, Death Ward), Warlock (Shadow of Moil/Hold Monster), or even Bard (Polymorph, Greater Invisibility), but the total spell slots feel very favorable vs. my alternatives, leaving all that smiting goodness:

Pure Paladin (level 15) 4/3/3/2/0
Padlock (Paladin 6/Warlock 9) 4/2/-/-/2
Whisper Padlock (Paladin 6/Warlock 3/Bard 6) 4/5 (3+2 pact)/3/3/1 + 5 Bardic Inspirations (Physic Blades - 3d6 damage per inspiration by lvl 15) totaling 21 smiting slots (7 on short rest).

This feels very strong, so decided to do a thought experiment with the goal of maximizing smite damage before I run out of slots. If I assume I ONLY use spell slots for Smites and that I ONLY Smite on Crits. (a big assumption, but this maximizes dmg. If anything I think it will only prove my point further). Also assuming I am using a Greatsword (so 2d6 x 2 x (.5) +6 = 18pts on every crit on average).

For comparison, using a common Paladin/Warlock option with Eldritch Smite (6/9 - campaign only to level 15), my spell slots are 4/2/0/0/2


I can only Crit twice and use Eldritch Smite @ 5th lvl (5d8) PLUS Divine Smite @ 2nd lvl (3d8) for 82 dmg on avg. ((5d8 x 2 + 3d8 x 2 + 2d6 x2) x .5 + 6) a huge number for sure.
However, after that, I only have 4 1st level spells left, meaning I can only Crit Smite four more times @ 1st lvl (2d8) for 34 dmg on avg. (2d8 x 2 + 2d6 x 2) x .5 + 6.


So in summary, I can only crit smite 6 times between rest, for a total of 300 damage (2 x 82dmg + 4 x 34dmg). Any crit after that point would only be base Greatsword (or 18pts on avg. per crit.)

Now with a Whisper Padlock with Physic Blade (6 Paladin/3 Warlock/6 Bard), my spell slots are 4/5/3/3/1 + 5 Bardic Inspirations (BI)

For those same first two crits, I could now use Divine Smite @ 4th level (5d8) PLUS Physic Blade (BI @ 3d6) without burning a 2nd spell slot at all for 76 dmg on avg. ((5d8 x 2 + 3d6 x 2 + 2d6 x 2) x .5 + 6). Not too shabby in itself. However, I only used two spell slots! Now I can still smite fourteen more times before I even need a short rest.

1 more time using the same 4th level DS (5d8) + 3d6 BI for 76 avg. damage
2 more times using 3rd level DS (4d8) + 3d6 BI for 68 avg. damage
1 more time using 3rd level DS (4d8) without BI for 50 avg. damage
6 more times using 2nd level DS (3d8) without BI for 42 avg. damage
4 more times using 1st level DS (2d8) without BI for 34 avg. damage


During the same first 6 crit smites (to be even with the point Paladin/Warlock runs out of smites), this build would still output 414 avg. damage. (vs. 300 for Paladin/Warlock during the same time).
But again, Whisper Padlock is smiting sixteen total smite crits between rests for a total of 802 avg. damage! To be fair, 6/9 Paladin-Warlock is still base criting for those remaining 10 crits where the Whisper Padlock is still smiting, but for a paltry 18 pts. on avg. That puts Whisper Padlock at 802 avg. damage vs. 6/9 Paladin-Warlock at 480 avg. damage over the course of those 16 crits.

Icing on the cake to me is my ability scores end up through the roof. Without Res Con, I'm still +7 on Con saves, athletics ability scores are +14, and my passive perception is +21, to name a few. But in any case, would love to get everyone's opinion on this build, especially compared to a Pure Vengeance Paladin, or a Sorcadin (P 6/S 9). Thanks!

[Nefariis]

If you are trying to create a "Smite God", then level 6 paladin is too much paladin - I get the need for the extra attack, but I would get it through warlock (thirsting blade).

Paladin 2 / Warlock 5 (3rd level slots / Thirsting Blade/LifeDrinker/Improved PW) / Bard 13 (7th level slots, 5d6 smites)
Paladin 2 / Warlock 7 (4th level slots / Above + Sculpt Flesh) / Bard 11 (6th level slots, 5d6 smites)

Or I would drop the warlock all together - the point is smite/crits right? who cares about being SAD

Paladin 5 / Bard 15 - You get your extra attack, level 8 spells (9th slots), and now 8d6 bardic smites
paladin 6 / Bard 14 - Extra attack, Auras, level 7 spells (9th slots), back to 5d6 bardic smites

I would almost try to go Pal 5 / Bard 15 for the 8d6 instead of 5d6 - the difference between 40d6 and 25d6 is nearly double (again, if you are just going for "Smite God")

I didn't really follow your math (it seemed somewhat contrived), so If you want apples to apples I will leave that to you.

Cool combo though - I've never thought about stacking these "smites" together.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'll just point out that you need 12 Warlock levels to qualify for the Lifedrinker Invocation.

Honestly, the biggest issue with this build is that it takes a while to get going, and it's got serious endurance issues until you start staking on the bard levels. And you kinda have to wait to toss those levels on because you can't seriously delay the Paladin/Warlock levels without falling further behind in the Attacker role.

[Nefariis]

Touche on LifeDrinker - fixed

The bardic smite is a pretty nuts feature, 8d6 is like having 5 free action, short rest fireballs at your disposal.

Some simple math -

Pal 5 / Bard 15 -------------- 4d6 (two attacks) + 8d6 (bardic inspiration) + 10d8 (two 4th level smites) + 6 (assumes 16 strength) = ~93 avg
Pal 2 / Warlock 7 / Bard 11 -- 4d6 (two attacks) + 5d6 (bardic inspiration) + 10d8 (two 4th level smites) + 10 (20 CHA) = ~86.5 avg

The first one has 9th level slots, can double 4th level smite more often, has more utility (higher spells/spells known), and has the whisper's cap feature.
The second one would be more accurate (+2 extra to attack), do more damage with not smiting (+2 extra damage per attack), has short rest 4th level slots, and has has curses/devil's cheese.

I'm inclined to take the first one just because I prefer having more/higher spells and the whispers bard feature looks like it could be campaign changing, plus it's probably shorter to come online - but they both look like fun characters.

[Keravath]

Sometimes these level 15 or 20 builds look cool - but how do you PLAY it to get there?

In this case, paladin 6 is the likely start so the character is a pure paladin for a LONG time. This means that you can't be charisma SAD and use a great sword. So ... you start with 3 levels of warlock bladepact hexblade for improved pact weapon + devils sight. This is followed by 6 levels of paladin - you don't get extra attack until level 8 - way behind anyone else in the party and the aura won't kick in until level 9.

Finally, it takes 5 levels of whispers bard for bardic inspiration to switch to short rest - it is long rest before that. This means that the character would not get these cool short rest smite resources until level 14 given the progression.

Even if you went with paladin/bard - you are looking at level 11 to short rest bardic inspiration and you need to build around using ASI for both strength and charisma. A 6/5 character will also only have 2 ASIs to spend - so if you go for 20 cha - your strength will still be at its starting value assuming point buy for stats.

Yes, the character sounds like it could have some cool abilities at high levels but to be honest they come online so late that I'm not sure you'll actually have much fun playing the character.

[bsullivanp]

Sometimes these level 15 or 20 builds look cool - but how do you PLAY it to get there?

In this case, paladin 6 is the likely start so the character is a pure paladin for a LONG time. This means that you can't be charisma SAD and use a great sword. So ... you start with 3 levels of warlock bladepact hexblade for improved pact weapon + devils sight. This is followed by 6 levels of paladin - you don't get extra attack until level 8 - way behind anyone else in the party and the aura won't kick in until level 9.

Finally, it takes 5 levels of whispers bard for bardic inspiration to switch to short rest - it is long rest before that. This means that the character would not get these cool short rest smite resources until level 14 given the progression.

Even if you went with paladin/bard - you are looking at level 11 to short rest bardic inspiration and you need to build around using ASI for both strength and charisma. A 6/5 character will also only have 2 ASIs to spend - so if you go for 20 cha - your strength will still be at its starting value assuming point buy for stats.

Yes, the character sounds like it could have some cool abilities at high levels but to be honest they come online so late that I'm not sure you'll actually have much fun playing the character.

You are perhaps right that going Paladin AND Warlock AND Bard is a step too far. and that as one of the earlier posters mentioned, going Paladin/Whisper Bard is the better choice in terms of spreading out the build and the ASIs better at the expense of SAD.

But as far as a 6/9 Paladin/Bard activating late, is that all that different from any multi-class build? If I went Sorcadin (6/9), I would argue the same thing would happen. For a pure Vengeance Paladin (which I think best fits this build, although perhaps a Devotion Paladin could too), I think levels 7-10 is mediocre as it is, with the next large bump at level 11 for Improved DS. That puts me at that Paladin 6/Bard 5 short rest inspiration threshold right there. Up until that point, as long as I put my first ASI into STR, I should still be benefitting from a higher attack rate, as well as useful Bard control spells like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Blindness, Suggestion, and Phantasmal Force to help me lock down and gain advantage on attack roles if used creatively.

[Nefariis]

well OP said the campaign starts at 15 - so that takes away most of the painful leveling.

In my main game I play a Vengeance paladin 6 / Lore bard X and I absolutely love it - I regularly do the most damage, have the best saves, and I have both the most skills and utility - plus bards are the best grapplers in the game.

So my vote would be to drop the Warlock levels.

[bsullivanp]

well OP said the campaign starts at 15 - so that takes away most of the painful leveling.

In my main game I play a Vengeance paladin 6 / Lore bard X and I absolutely love it - I regularly do the most damage, have the best saves, and I have both the most skills and utility - plus bards are the best grapplers in the game.

So my vote would be to drop the Warlock levels.

No the campaign ENDS at 15, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[Gignere]

No the campaign ENDS at 15, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The best way to level this from what I’ve seen if you are dead set on bardhexadin, is to start Paladin and go warlock early, so 1/1 this will allow you to attack with charisma ASAP. Then it is going to be another 5 levels of Paladin grabbing EA at level 5 character level.

After 6/1 Paladin / lock you go back to hex blade for another 2 levels this unlocks two hand weapon smite crit fishing.

Now you can continue on warlock or go into bard.

This leveling plan isn’t painful at all.

[Chugger]

I saw some commenting up there suggesting a Pal 5 plus other stuff ... no, never stop at Pal 5. Pal 6 and aura is _so_ good. Ridiculously good. I can see going Pal 2 in a mc, but Pal 5? Never!

[Hytheter]

I know someone who played Hexblade 5/Paladin 2/Whisper Bard 5/Sorcerer 8 and seemed pretty pleased with it. Sustained smites are one thing, but stacking three smites on a critical booming blade as a bonus action is pretty cool too.

[Dalinar]

As others have mentioned, early game is gonna be the big issue for this build. My take would be Hexblade 5/Paladin 2/Bard X for that reason.

--You are SAD early, unlike starting Paladin
--Your "short rest smites" come online earlier (take Eldritch Smite at level 5 + swap an invocation for Thirsting Blade)
--You have both Extra Attack and two 3rd-level slots at level 5--great for stuff like Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fly, Hunger of Hadar, Hypnotic Pattern, and more, and that's just the third-level spells

Downsides:

--You do lose out on smite from levels 2-4 but that's the window where smite is weakest anyway
--You lose out on stuff like Find Steed and the saving throw aura, which kinda sucks
--You don't have a whole lot of smites until you start stacking those Bard levels, so it might be worth grabbing a couple of those before hitting up Paladin

Personally I value T1-T2 power more than T3-T4 power, but that's your call.

[Gignere]

As others have mentioned, early game is gonna be the big issue for this build. My take would be Hexblade 5/Paladin 2/Bard X for that reason.

--You are SAD early, unlike starting Paladin
--Your "short rest smites" come online earlier (take Eldritch Smite at level 5 + swap an invocation for Thirsting Blade)
--You have both Extra Attack and two 3rd-level slots at level 5--great for stuff like Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fly, Hunger of Hadar, Hypnotic Pattern, and more, and that's just the third-level spells

Downsides:

--You do lose out on smite from levels 2-4 but that's the window where smite is weakest anyway
--You lose out on stuff like Find Steed and the saving throw aura, which kinda sucks
--You don't have a whole lot of smites until you start stacking those Bard levels, so it might be worth grabbing a couple of those before hitting up Paladin

Personally I value T1-T2 power more than T3-T4 power, but that's your call.

You also lose out on heavy armor leveling this way. With a 13 strength requirement to multi, and needing a 14 in dex to max AC, this build is more MAD than starting Paladin 1 with 15 in strength and dumping dex.

[RogueJK]

Exactly. If starting this Hexbardadin from Level 1, a better bet is to start with 15ish in STR/CON/CHA (plus racials), wear Heavy Armor, and take Paladin 1 first.

From there you can either go for:

A) Paladin 1 -> Hexblade 1 -> Paladin to 2 -> Hexblade to 5 -> Whispers Bard X, if you want to use a Greatsword or other 2H weapon with CHA

or

B) Paladin 1 -> Hexblade 1 -> Paladin to 6 -> Bard X if you're okay with using a 1H weapon and shield. (Since you aren't going to be utilizing GWM, a Longsword combined with Dueling Fighting Style gets you average damage equivalent to a Greatsword: 2+4.5 vs. 7.)

Either one gets your Divine Smites online at Level 3, Extra Attack at a still reasonable Level 6 or 7, and Heavy Armor so you can afford to dump DEX. Then just drop both your ASIs (at Paladin/Warlock 4 and Bard 4) into boosting CHA.

A) is a more powerful smiter in Tier 1 and 2, plus gets Invocations and Level 3 short rest recharge slots, and can use a Greatsword. B) gets some really nice additional Paladin abilities and Paladin subclass abilities, and eventually gets Level 4 and 5 smite slots in Tier 3, but can't use a Greatsword with CHA.

[Nefariis]

I saw some commenting up there suggesting a Pal 5 plus other stuff ... no, never stop at Pal 5. Pal 6 and aura is _so_ good. Ridiculously good. I can see going Pal 2 in a mc, but Pal 5? Never!

Whoa Whoa Whoa, that's extremely disingenuous to say "never" - if you read the title, OP wants to be a "smite god" - Whisper Bard 15 gets you 5 x 8d6 short rest "smites" which only leaves 5 levels of Paladin

If he said he would like to be decent at "smiting" as well as wanted to have great saves - then I would agree that pal 6 / bard 14 would be the best choice - but I was under the impression that we were optimizing for "smites", which Paladin 6 Auras doesn't help with at all.

My vote though is still to drop warlock, I think it's unnecessary for the build.

Pal 6 -> Whispers Bard 14

pick a custom lineage that lets you bring your CHA up to 18 to start (Skill Feat), Max CHA at level 4, pick up a Gauntlet's of Ogre Power around level 5/6

I dont think being SAD or the short rest slots are worth the dip and delaying bard levels

[Gignere]

You should analyze the optimal cutoffs for each class. What I mean by this is Paladin makes the most sense with 2 / 6 / 7 levels for this type of build. Hexblade breaks are 1 / 3 / 5 and bard is 5 / 10 / maybe 15 if you are overweighting on whispers smites.

Now you can just play around with the level combinations that makes the most sense and best fit to the flavor you like.

[quindraco]

From a smiting perspective, I'm pretty sure this optimal, if we take whisper bard 5 as mandatory:

Paladin 2
Bard 5
Sorcerer 5 + Metamagic Adept feat, so you can have 6 sorcery points on you at once - this allows 7 at once, which is more than you need.
Warlock 3

In terms of slot fuel, you have 7 sorcery points, 1 L6 spell slot, and 2 l5 slots, i.e. 23 sorcery points (just never more than 7 on you at once), letting you make 10 level 1 spell slots and 1 level 2 spell slot.

So your normal spell slots look like this:
14/4/3/3
And your pact slots look like this:
-/2/-/-

In terms of total smite damage, your normal slots deal (14*2+4*3+3*4+3*5)*4.5 = 301.5
Your warlock slots can smite for another (2*3)*4.5 = 27 per short rest, and of course you have 10.5*5=52.5 in whisper "smites" per short rest, which stack with real smites.

Total times you can divine smite is 24 per long rest and 2 per short, and total times you can whisper-stab is 5 per short rest.

The big hazard here is not having access to extra attack, so this damage is very spread out, but with either war caster (for the greatsword) or a rapier, you can stab with booming blade just fine, which precludes a second attack anyhow. If you want to concentrate the damage into fewer smites:

23 sorcery points was 10 l1 slots and 1 l2, for 90+13.5=103.5 smite damage
23 sp can be 4 l1 slots and 3 l2 slots, for the same total smite damage

So that's this:
8/6/3/3

Your total divine smites go down from 24 per long rest to 20, for the same amount of smite damage, concentrated into fewer blows, which is probably better if you're crit-fishing. If you feel pinched for ASIs at only 2, dropping 1 sorcerer level is a very small deal, and Warlock 4 gets you an ASI immediately, letting you take e.g. Elven Accuracy, +2 Charisma, and Metamagic Adept. You can also take 1 more sorcerer level so you can hold 6 sp at once, which will also get you a sorcerer subclass ability, but I don't know of any that will directly contribute to smiting.

[Gignere]

If you are going to build a smiting god, I think you need to be able to stack 3 smites on a crit. So this means at minimum it’s going to be 2 Paladin / 5 whispers bard / 5 hexblade.

Where you go from there, depends on what’s important to you:

1. 6 P / 5 whispers / 9 lock you can stack two level 5 smites + 3d6 whisper. This build gets you the Paladin aura.

2. 3 P / 10 whispers / 7 lock you can stack a level 5 + level 4 smite + 5d6 whisper. This build gets you find greater steed and one other magical secrets. 3P is for the channel divinity to recover PB/2 in spell slot.