OOTS #1237 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[KorvinStarmast]

Haley, you are about to split the party. :smalleek:
"Wait here while I sneak in"
(How many of my rogues got whacked, or killed, over the years when I went scouting ahead, eh?)

Roy's suspicions about the door slamming shut seem to be well grounded.

I am now going back to look at panel 3 and think through how this entire tunnel complex works.

I got a grin out of Belkar's "Yeah, yeah, you're a very clever boy" and Roy's comment in panel 5.

Thanks Giant. :smallsmile:

[carborundum]

Minrah's education has moved on to Advanced dungeoneering

[Ruck]

Well, I guess that answers the question of how many of the doors actually go somewhere-- it looks like multiple ones converge in some kind of central area. (Even if there's more than one of those.)

But the tunnel Elan is in seems to be another one of those, so I'd guess it's not the way to the gate, merely to whatever Serini has planned. (I wish I had a better idea or even a guess of what exactly that was, or how much she knows about the Order's capabilities.)

[Abelard]

Ooooh - high level rogue vs. really high level rogue!

[Bacon Elemental]

Ahhh, finally a solution to "how the hell does the mile-long bank of doors work?" question we've been answering since our first look at Monster Hollow

[SavageWombat]

Also, weirdly pretty-looking for a series of featureless holes. Nice.

[pearl jam]

"I imagine the raw materials they're using are affecting the quality of the finished product."

:smallamused:

:roy:

:elan::frown:

[The Derp Potato]

Don't split the party Hayley.... WE HAD A WHOLE BOOK ABOUT THIS

[Schroeswald]

Minrah joining the party was a great decision, she’s amazing.

[sillymel]

I love Roy’s expression in that first panel.


Also, weirdly pretty-looking for a series of featureless holes. Nice.

Hope no one has trypophobia.

[One Skunk Todd]

"Too close together for them each to be their own dungeon..." when the magic's turned off.

It's interesting that she bothered with another tunnel in the wall opposite the cliffside tunnels. I wonder if she planned for people getting back here, as opposed to improvising right now.

[TRH]

Isn't Light usually cast on an object?

And yeah, I guess the enemy that relies on trickery the most against them was always the Linear Guild, so that tracks even without thinking about Girard.

[P.LOC]

Belkar has raised his wisdom...

Elan's posture seems strange, as someone was holding him by his legs like a puppet. Strange but fitting.

Edit: rephrased better

[SlashDash]

Isn't Light usually cast on an object?
You can also cast it on a person

[TRH]

You can also cast it on a person

Looks like Vaarsuvius did neither. No way that would be used on Blackwing without a lot of commentary from him on glowing all of a sudden.

[Mic_128]

Ooooh - high level rogue vs. really high level rogue!

I'm actually wondering if this is a setup specifically to lure Hailey away from the others. She knows about the relationship she has with Elan, surely.

[EmperorSarda]

Isn't Light usually cast on an object?



Yes. Which is why V cast light on Oxygen atom. And why it floats so. ;)

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan's posture seems strange, as someone was holding him by his legs like a puppet. Strange but fitting.
My guess: being held by "orange voice" who refers to Serini as "Boss" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) :smallcool:

As I look at panel 3, I am getting an odd flashback to the movie "The Yellow Submarine" (Beatles, animation) and the Sea of Holes; Elan's body position in Panel 4 augments that.

[littlebum2002]

Hope no one has trypophobia.

My thought exactly when I saw this. Specifically I was reminded of that (fake) picture form the early internet of the larvae that tunneled holes in someone's breast.


.

It's interesting that she bothered with another tunnel in the wall opposite the cliffside tunnels. I wonder if she planned for people getting back here, as opposed to improvising right now.

It sounds like the monsters in those dungeons are REALLY hard, which means that a team would have to be very high level to defeat them, which means most teams attempting the dungeon would have a reasonable chance of disarming the door trap and finding the "real" dungeon. My guess is that this is definitely something that was planned for.

[danielxcutter]

It sounds like the monsters in those dungeons are REALLY hard, which means that a team would have to be very high level to defeat them, which means most teams attempting the dungeon would have a reasonable chance of disarming the door trap and finding the "real" dungeon. My guess is that this is definitely something that was planned for.

Even if there wasn't a rogue to find the trap, you'd think that the casters would take some more time to scan the area for magic auras. And I don't think any of the spells that hide that are foolproof.

[Ionathus]

Ooh, REALLY love the scenery work here. The series of holes & caverns is much more...cavernous...than I was expecting. I figured we'd just be seeing narrow tunnels from here on out.


Don't split the party Hayley.... WE HAD A WHOLE BOOK ABOUT THIS

Yeah, color me surprised and nervous about this sudden separation too. Not the smartest idea when you don't know what kind of enemy you're facing.

"The ones you need to watch out for are usually the ones you don't need to watch out for." :biggrin: love it.

[Fyraltari]

It's interesting that she bothered with another tunnel in the wall opposite the cliffside tunnels.

I don't think she did. It's not very clear but it seems to me that Elan did a 180° turn and went into another tunnel leading from a door.

[Xlsfd]

Wait... If the tunnels actually link up like this, does this mean the MITD's efforts were in vain?

[Psyren]

The "raw materials" line was gold :smallbiggrin:

Light being a floaty orb is a fantasy staple, I never understood why d&d didn't have that option. (See Wheel of Time etc)


Wait... If the tunnels actually link up like this, does this mean the MITD's efforts were in vain?

No because Team Evil kept walking into the portals just inside each door anyway. No rogue you see.

[Fyraltari]

Wait... If the tunnels actually link up like this, does this mean the MITD's efforts were in vain?

In a sense but it was never going to work, really, even if one tunnel was the true one, the mitd could have made Team Evil find faster or just make them start over. What actually matters is that he took some action with the intent of thwarting Xykon.

[Rogan]

Looks like Vaarsuvius did neither. No way that would be used on Blackwing without a lot of commentary from him on glowing all of a sudden.

Especially since Blackwing is outside of the cave, far out of reach.

[CountDVB]

Well, their Telepathic bond will help though note how Vaarsuvius and Belles at broth correct here one regards to Serini

[Grim Portent]

I don't think she did. It's not very clear but it seems to me that Elan did a 180° turn and went into another tunnel leading from a door.

The tunnel he's in appears to be the one on the right hand wall in panel 3, you can see part of the side of the entrance on the piece of the green wall in the background. Same colour, seems to be the same stalagmites to the left of the opening in all the panels it's in.

Could be another tunnel going into the green wall, but it seems sensible that the only tunnel on that wall shown in the large panel is the one that Elan's in.

[Crusher]

Makes sense, really. An enemy using subterfuge probably thinks they're weaker than you. An enemy that comes right at you probably thinks they're stronger. Weaker enemies are probably easier to beat than stronger enemies, generally speaking.

[Hiro Quester]

I'm guessing that V cast light on one of their Ioun Stones

I love Roy's squinting through the dark in the first panel. Very well drawn.

[locksmith of lo]

OMG! so many answers that were so close to being answered just at the other end of the tunnel left unexplored! :smallbiggrin:

[Crusher]

Even if there wasn't a rogue to find the trap, you'd think that the casters would take some more time to scan the area for magic auras. And I don't think any of the spells that hide that are foolproof.

Didn't they note the whole area was made out of multi-dimensional stone or something? I think the whole area is suffused with magic. So, sure, a strong enough wizard looking for something specific could certainly find it. But just scanning the area for magic would probably produce so many different responses it might be useless.

[TRH]

Even if there wasn't a rogue to find the trap, you'd think that the casters would take some more time to scan the area for magic auras. And I don't think any of the spells that hide that are foolproof.

Detect Magic has finite uses in 3.5 and requires a caster's concentration, so randomly using it in a barren antechamber is hardly inevitable, actually. And we saw that this trick defeats True Seeing because it doesn't involve an illusion, per se.


I'm guessing that V cast light on one of their Ioun Stones


Blackwing has the one they took from Laurin, though, so unless V has another...

[Xihirli]

Okay, Roy, that was only mean. You said you were going to work on that!

[Breccia]

I am increasingly going to miss the sexy shoeless God of War.

[MartianInvader]

Dawww, I guess MitD's efforts to slow down Xykon were all for nothing... oh well, at least his heart was in the right place.

[Yxylu]

It looks like the wall to the right is a different color that the wall with all the tunnels. My guess is that the right wall is the natural chasm, while the big Swiss cheese block of stone to the left was put there by Serini. That one is made of the multidimensional stone, as is whatever makes up the Monster Hollow tunnels, like where Team Evil is.

I suppose that doesn’t exactly jibe with the crayon drawing in 276, but that could be Shojo’s unreliable narration. Or I could be wrong.

[locksmith of lo]

i also notice that haley did not take the bet... :smallcool:

[hungrycrow]

Dawww, I guess MitD's efforts to slow down Xykon were all for nothing... oh well, at least his heart was in the right place.

It's the thought that counts. Also, if Team Evil had time for it and realized all the markings have been messed with, they would have to brute force the whole thing again before realizing the real trick. Of course plot is probably going to happen before they can do that anyway.

[Pory]

I also think they're grabbing Elan or something like that ... mostly because that cave doesn't seem to have any floor to stand on. Inside all the other holes you can see the floor but not in this one :smallconfused:

[RochtheCrusher]

Wait... If the tunnels actually link up like this, does this mean the MITD's efforts were in vain?

Not necessarily.

The dungeon is a mystery, like an escape room. Any time spent fighting monsters or figuring out unrelated mysteries (like why we've marked twice as many doors as we could've been in) is time that's not being spent figuring out what the problem is.

IDENTIFYING the exact details of MITD's actions would have been/will be wasted effort, but that's good. It's like when the magician has you CONVINCED he's using magnets when he actually isn't... you miss the real trick because you're looking for the wrong things.

Red herrings are always helpful, when trying to confound people.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So, I'm thinking dashing swordsman allows Elan to do a Scooby-Doo style door chase scene.


Dawww, I guess MitD's efforts to slow down Xykon were all for nothing... oh well, at least his heart was in the right place.Assuming he has a heart, or circulatory system.

[PontificatusRex]

So, I checked the intertubez thinking "It would be really nifty if there was a new OotS for my birthday" and there it was!

Thanks, Giant!

[Ornithologist]

So, I'm thinking dashing swordsman allows Elan to do a Scooby-Doo style door chase scene.


One: I'm trying to drink over here. I shouldn't be wasting it on a spit take.

Two: I can't think how you would show that in comic book form, even though this is almost a requirement to happen now.

Three: this becomes extra timely, as they announced a Scooby Doo - Courage the Cowardly Dog Crossover yesterday.

[KorvinStarmast]

Light being a floaty orb is a fantasy staple, I never understood why d&d didn't have that option. FWIW, 5e has drift globes as an item, and also FWIW it was originally not specified as being needed to cast onto something. (1' = 10 feet indoors, and 10 yards out doors)

Light: A spell to cast light in a circle 3" in diameter, not equal to full daylight. It lasts for a number of turns equal to 6 + the number of levels of the user; thus, a 7th level Magic-User would cast the spell for 13 turns.
In AD&D 1e, it could be cast on air.

{light Level: I Duration 6 turns + 1 turn/level Area of Effect: 2” radius globe} This spell causes excitation of molecules so as to make them brightly luminous. The light thus caused is equal to torch light in brightness, but its sphere is limited to 4” in diameter. It lasts for the duration indicated (7 turns at 1st experience level, 8 at 2nd, 9 at 3rd. etc.) or until the caster utters a word to extinguish the light. {snip} the spell takes effect where the caster directs as long as he or she has a line of sight or unobstructed path for the
spell; light can spring from air, rock, metal, wood, or almost any similar
substance. (Italics mine) Looks like WoTC is the ones who tied it to an object.
No because Team Evil kept walking into the portals just inside each door anyway. No rogue you see. +1

Well, their Telepathic bond will help though note how Vaarsuvius and Belles at broth correct here one regards to Serini And the broth is based on Belkar's gourmet chef skill points, yes? :smallbiggrin: (Fun with typos)

... oh well, at least his heart was in the right place. Which I think O Chul observed in a previous strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html).
So, I'm thinking dashing swordsman allows Elan to do a Scooby-Doo style door chase scene.
Hmm, that's an interesting take on dashing swordsman ...
So, I checked the intertubez thinking "It would be really nifty if there was a new OotS for my birthday" and there it was! *clears throat*
Happy Birthday to you ... :smallsmile:

[Fish]

Didn't they note the whole area was made out of multi-dimensional stone or something?
The whole area that Redcloak and Xykon could see, which does not include these tunnels. The multi-dimensional stone, or whatever it was that they called it, was probably only put in place to keep people from bypassing the magic portal/trap line.

The thing that I notice about the caves is that they're big enough for a fairly large creature. Dragon-sized, you might say.

[Peelee]

Also, weirdly pretty-looking for a series of featureless holes. Nice.
Seconded. All the art upgrades make it look fantastic.

My guess: being held by "orange voice" who refers to Serini as "Boss" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) :smallcool:

As I look at panel 3, I am getting an odd flashback to the movie "The Yellow Submarine" (Beatles, animation) and the Sea of Holes; Elan's body position in Panel 4 augments that.
Havent seen it, too busy. They got me working 8 days a week.

I'm guessing that V cast light on one of their Ioun Stones.
What Ioun Stones?

So, I checked the intertubez thinking "It would be really nifty if there was a new OotS for my birthday" and there it was!

Thanks, Giant!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

The whole area that Redcloak and Xykon could see, which does not include these tunnels.

Source?

[Duncun]

Makes sense, really. An enemy using subterfuge probably thinks they're weaker than you. An enemy that comes right at you probably thinks they're stronger. Weaker enemies are probably easier to beat than stronger enemies, generally speaking.

In this case we have an enemy that knows she is outnumbered, so makes sense to try to split the party.

[Neoriceisgood]

Well that at least explains how this entire area is constructed.

[Lord Torath]

So, I'm thinking dashing swordsman allows Elan to do a Scooby-Doo style door chase scene.
Two: I can't think how you would show that in comic book form, even though this is almost a requirement to happen now.This is how you do it... (https://rustyandco.com/comic/level-8-133/)

Thanks, Rich!

[Peelee]

This is how you do it... (https://rustyandco.com/comic/level-8-133/)

Thanks, Rich!

I'm not sure how well that transfers to print.

[bunsen_h]

I love Roy’s expression in that first panel.

To me, that looks like squinting.


"Too close together for them each to be their own dungeon..." when the magic's turned off.

It's interesting that she bothered with another tunnel in the wall opposite the cliffside tunnels. I wonder if she planned for people getting back here, as opposed to improvising right now.

It looks to me like a physical inversion of the external setup: a canyon with walls of holes filling the sides. I'm still holding out for the setup all being done by messing with connectivity of segments of dungeon via high-dimensional space. I don't think this area is "opposite" the cliffside tunnels, since that would require two such areas, one for each side of the canyon.


Hmm, that's an interesting take on dashing swordsman ... *clears throat*

:smallsmile:

[sillymel]

To me, that looks like squinting.

Yes, I know that. I just didn’t say that in my post, I just said “Roy’s expression” because “the way Roy is squinting” doesn’t flow as well, and just “Roy’s squinting” doesn’t quite sound right grammatically.

[warmachine]

A pity Vaarsuvius doesn't have Arcane Eye.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[hungrycrow]

A pity Vaarsuvius doesn't have Arcane Eye.

Hey, the Order has gotten a lot better over the course of the comic, but we can't have them play too intelligently.:smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

Didn't they note the whole area was made out of multi-dimensional stone or something? I think the whole area is suffused with magic. So, sure, a strong enough wizard looking for something specific could certainly find it. But just scanning the area for magic would probably produce so many different responses it might be useless.

I'm pretty sure that "multi-dimensional" only prevents ethereal/incorporeal creatures cheesing the entire dungeon and teleportation(all of these go through another plane for that).


Detect Magic has finite uses in 3.5 and requires a caster's concentration, so randomly using it in a barren antechamber is hardly inevitable, actually. And we saw that this trick defeats True Seeing because it doesn't involve an illusion, per se.

Yes, but that's partly because of Team Evil's setup rather than casters in general. Imagine a high or epic level arcanist who has Greater Arcane Sight active, for example. And normal Arcane Sight can be made permanent.

[Roger_Druid]

Hi all!

Some questions...
So, should my eyes don't fail me, in 3d panel I read "You've a a very clever boy", not "You're a a very clever boy", isn't it? Also, in 1st panel, why V's eyes aren't showing signs of active darkvision like Durgon's and Minrah's? Should the heroes be in FR, even Belkar could have darkvision (half of halflings have in FR, at least in ADnD 2nd ed.)...

Roger

[TRH]

Hi all!

Some questions...
So, should my eyes don't fail me, in 3d panel I read "You've a a very clever boy", not "You're a a very clever boy", isn't it? Also, in 1st panel, why V's eyes aren't showing signs of active darkvision like Durgon's and Minrah's? Should the heroes be in FR, even Belkar could have darkvision (half of halflings have in FR, at least in ADnD 2nd ed.)...

Roger

Elves in 3.5 have low-light vision, but not darkvision. And halflings don't even get low-light.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So if this is where the tunnels seem to lead to, does this mean that they're somewhat close to the Gate? Or at least closer to whatever it is that needs to be done to next access the Gate? And I do not have a good feeling about Haley going in on her own, although I suppose there's no one else really capable of stealthing in with her.

[Ruck]

This is how you do it... (https://rustyandco.com/comic/level-8-133/)

Thanks, Rich!


I'm not sure how well that transfers to print.

Heck, it doesn't even transfer to mobile (at least not for me).

[TRH]

So if this is where the tunnels seem to lead to, does this mean that they're somewhat close to the Gate? Or at least closer to whatever it is that needs to be done to next access the Gate? And I do not have a good feeling about Haley going in on her own, although I suppose there's no one else really capable of stealthing in with her.

Belkar can stealth too, he just can't contribute in finding traps.

[hungrycrow]

Belkar can stealth too, he just can't contribute in finding traps.

Probably would have been a good idea to send him then, just in case Haley does get cut off somehow.

[Snails]

It sounds like the monsters in those dungeons are REALLY hard, which means that a team would have to be very high level to defeat them, which means most teams attempting the dungeon would have a reasonable chance of disarming the door trap and finding the "real" dungeon. My guess is that this is definitely something that was planned for.

Haley is high level. We do not know for a fact that there has ever been a high level rogue in these tunnels before. In fact, it would be reasonable to guess that the monsters dwelling in these tunnels do not require a Rogue to defeat at all, other than the fact that some dangerous monsters are good at ambushes.

This is the first tunnel the Order have explored, and Haley presumably had a good roll of the die and hit a DC >30 or so to find this trap. It is quite plausible for Haley to have a Search skill of +20. If she rolled lower, she would not have found it, and the Order would have learned that traps on the foyer are not common.

After 3 or 4 failures to roll very high that had no apparent negative consequences, wouldn't most Rogues just give up on checking for traps there?

My guestimate is this is a very high level "magical trap". http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm, this would have a DC somewhere around 34, as it is a similar effect to Teleport Circle (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm). Note that Teleport Circle specifically mentions that it may be difficult to detect (other than the fact you can usually notice that you have moved somewhere else).

Find Traps gives only up to +10 on the Search roll.

True Seeing gives no specific benefit against things that are hidden, unless it is hidden by an illusion. According to Haley, there is tiny writing that is hidden simply by virtue of being small, it is just very difficult to notice -- True Sight would not help for this.

[KorvinStarmast]

Probably would have been a good idea to send him then, just in case Haley does get cut off somehow. He is busy mentoring Minrah in Advanced Adventuring :smallsmile:

[Snails]

So if this is where the tunnels seem to lead to, does this mean that they're somewhat close to the Gate? Or at least closer to whatever it is that needs to be done to next access the Gate? And I do not have a good feeling about Haley going in on her own, although I suppose there's no one else really capable of stealthing in with her.

Presumably these are the "maintenance tunnels" of the complex, that were never intended to be accessed by anyone but Serini (or Team Serini?). Yes, I would expect the Gate to be here, and that all the monster-infested tunnels are distractions.

The Gate might well be hidden, but I would not expect it to be physically difficult to get very near to, assuming you knew where to go.

[Hasric]

Agree the other unseen voice that called Serini is probably puppeting Elan.

Seeing the slightly ironic idea of Elan, bearer of Banjo, being used as a hand puppet.

More crazy, the other unseen voice is a giant Banjo puppeting Elan....

Also if the tunnels are parallel, what about the other side of the chasm? Would all the parallel tunnels also lead to the same place and can they outflank Serini? Even if it means... Splitting the Party.

[MrToad]

I don't think Xykon has ever been *here*. This is the "shunt" dungeon that can only be reached using the dead-rat-head trick. It's possible the non-shunt dungeons are all separate, correct?

Snails wrote:
> Presumably these are the "maintenance tunnels" of the complex, that were never intended to be accessed by anyone but Serini (or Team Serini?).

I think that's a good way to think of it.

Also, Elan's body angle and movement looks more like Banjo than Elan to me. He's being played like a puppet.
*EDIT* I see I'm not the first to mention this. Sorry for the duplicate!

[TRH]

Also if the tunnels are parallel, what about the other side of the chasm? Would all the parallel tunnels also lead to the same place and can they outflank Serini? Even if it means... Splitting the Party.

I think there are only supposed to be tunnels on one side of the chasm, as it were. I am starting to wonder what the defense would be against someone trying to tunnel their way down from the surface behind all the doors, though. Like, physical excavation, not ghostform or Ethereal Jaunt or polymorphing into something with a burrow speed.

[Grim Portent]

I don't think Xykon has ever been *here*. This is the "shunt" dungeon that can only be reached using the dead-rat-head trick. It's possible the non-shunt dungeons are all separate, correct?

The idea seems to be that normally all the doors have a portal that sends you to a decoy dungeon somewhere else, with each leading to a different decoy dungeon. By turning off the portal, with a rat head in Haley's case, you can instead walk into the real tunnels normally hidden behind the portals. So there's hundreds of distinct dungeons, but none of them matter at all.

It's more accurate to think of this as the non-shunt dungeon, since the normal state of affairs is being shunted to a fake. You could reach this dungeon by tunneling through the rock around the portals somehow, but you couldn't do the same for the other dungeons.


I think there are only supposed to be tunnels on one side of the chasm, as it were. I am starting to wonder what the defense would be against someone trying to tunnel their way down from the surface behind all the doors, though. Like, physical excavation, not ghostform or Ethereal Jaunt or polymorphing into something with a burrow speed.

I'm not sure many people would think to try tunneling. If you don't know the doors are all portal traps then it's much easier to fight through the tunnels to look for the gate rather than tunnel into a dungeon at random and then have to fight the stuff in it so you can search. Tunneling would bypass the outermost defense, but for anyone who isn't already aware of the portal traps it would be by dumb luck that it payed off.

[Fyraltari]

I think there are only supposed to be tunnels on one side of the chasm, as it were. I am starting to wonder what the defense would be against someone trying to tunnel their way down from the surface behind all the doors, though. Like, physical excavation, not ghostform or Ethereal Jaunt or polymorphing into something with a burrow speed.

Serini and friends.

[TRH]

Serini and friends.

They haven't whipped out a single weapon so far that would so much as inconvenience an undead attacker. Of course, given her defeatism, I suppose there's no reason to invest in anything for that.

[Fish]

Source?
Here. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) "If this ravine hadn't been built up out of multidimensional stone..."

This does not prove that the caverns were not made out of similar material, only that our source of this knowledge is Redcloak, who is opining on the parts of the ravine he has seen and tested personally. Without more information, I see no reason to make any assumptions beyond that. Heck, we don't even know if the caverns are anywhere near the tunnels that Redcloak has been exploring.

If Redcloak had said "According to the builders' notes in the diary..." or similar, perhaps we could speak more broadly.

[Fyraltari]

They haven't whipped out a single weapon so far that would so much as inconvenience an undead attacker.

And? So far we've seen Serini and co in one fight and they won it.

You asked what her plan was if somebody tried to bypass her defences, and that's the same plan every defenser ever had for when someone try to bypass their defenses "don't let them".

The fact that the attackers may be someone the defensers can't outgun doesn't make this a bad plan because that's a flaw in every plan.

[TRH]

And? So far we've seen Serini and co in one fight and they won it.

You asked what her plan was if somebody tried to bypass her defences, and that's the same plan every defenser ever had for when someone try to bypass their defenses "don't let them".

The fact that the attackers may be someone the defensers can't outgun doesn't make this a bad plan because that's a flaw in every plan.

She won against people who weren't even trying to challenge the Gate's defenses, but that's a digression.

More generally, I was kind of asking if there would be a way for that strategy to be stopped before it starts, like ethereal shenanigans could. If not and her only recourse is battle, then someone could at least bypass all the monsters, which seem to be significantly tougher than Serini herself.

[Peelee]

They haven't whipped out a single weapon so far that would so much as inconvenience an undead attacker.
Which makes sense, given that she hasn't fought any undead on panel.

Here. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) "If this ravine hadn't been built up out of multidimensional stone..."

This does not prove that the caverns were not made out of similar material, only that our source of this knowledge is Redcloak, who is opining on the parts of the ravine he has seen and tested personally. Without more information, I see no reason to make any assumptions beyond that.

Sure we can; the multidimensional stone does not stop them from entering the tunnels at all. The only barrier to the tunnels is the door. Thus, the only possible use the multidimensional stone could have would be that the entire ravine was built up out of it, since if it was just the parts Redcloak could see, then they could just pass from tunnel to tunnel once they got in the door.

Unless you mean that there is a thin sheet of multidimensional stone covering only the surface area, which would be..... well, it would certainly be a theory, I'll grant you that.

[Fyraltari]

She won against people who weren't even trying to challenge the Gate's defenses, but that's a digression.

More generally, I was kind of asking if there would be a way for that strategy to be stopped before it starts, like ethereal shenanigans could.
Maybe? But beside "very hard rock" I'm not really sure what.

If not and her only recourse is battle, then someone could at least bypass all the monsters, which seem to be significantly tougher than Serini herself.
We don't know that. We literally have no idea what Orange is capable of and we have no idea how many other allies she can bring to a fight. Serini lost to Xykon, the monsters in the fake-out dungeons lose to Team Evil easily enough that they can do half a dozen of them in one sitting, I'm not sure thare's much of a power-level discrepancy.

[Grim Portent]

Why would anyone tunnel through the rock rather than using the doors? All that means from an outside perspective is that you'll drop into a dungeon tunnel somewhere in the mid point and then have to fight through the rest of it looking for the gate, which is a worse situation than just going through a door. The knowledge that there's a bunch of undefended space to dig into isn't exactly going to be common knowledge.

It's an option to us because we know the doors are tricks, but to anyone who hasn't noticed the teleport traps the doors are just an attrition, and luck, based defence system rather than a ruse.

[TRH]

Why would anyone tunnel through the rock rather than using the doors? All that means from an outside perspective is that you'll drop into a dungeon tunnel somewhere in the mid point and then have to fight through the rest of it looking for the gate, which is a worse situation than just going through a door. The knowledge that there's a bunch of undefended space to dig into isn't exactly going to be common knowledge.

It's an option to us because we know the doors are tricks, but to anyone who hasn't noticed the teleport traps the doors are just an attrition, and luck, based defence system rather than a ruse.

Even if you don't suspect fundamental chicanery from the dungeon designed by a rogue, entering the dungeon "behind" a bunch of the monsters would have the potential to bypass a ton of fighting.

[Skull the Troll]

Presumably these are the "maintenance tunnels" of the complex, that were never intended to be accessed by anyone but Serini (or Team Serini?). Yes, I would expect the Gate to be here, and that all the monster-infested tunnels are distractions.

The Gate might well be hidden, but I would not expect it to be physically difficult to get very near to, assuming you knew where to go.

There cant just be one mid level trap protecting the gate. Virtually only Xykons group would be fooled by that, and even they are going to figure it out eventually - or just accidently kick a rock across it before walking over it.


There is a lot going on here we don't know about yet. I think she feels confident the team evil will never find the gates but that the party being there is a threat. Its hard to even understand what she knows about the godsmoot decision, etc. When we (presumably) first met her she said that she expected to not exist soon. That sounds like she knows that the gods are planning to unmake the world. But if that's the case then Xykon winning, or the Order detonating the gate, both have the same effect. If she doesn't know that the gods will unmake the world then her best bet would be to hand the gate to Xykon now. She could disarm the traps - what ever.

[Grim Portent]

Even if you don't suspect fundamental chicanery from the dungeon designed by a rogue, entering the dungeon "behind" a bunch of the monsters would have the potential to bypass a ton of fighting.

At the cost of a lot of time and money spent on digging through rock. Getting enough people and supplies there to make any kind of safe tunnel would not be cheap, it is the north pole after all.

From the perspective of an adventurer the most efficient method is to just kill everything from the door in, anything short of a TPK can be fixed by healing and ressurection spells, and doing so will make you gradually more powerful and wealthy anyway.

[Peelee]

There cant just be one mid level trap protecting the gate. Virtually only Xykons group would be fooled by that, and even they are going to figure it out eventually - or just accidently kick a rock across it before walking over it.

Kicking the rock does nothing; the rock goes into the teleport and they only see into the teleport, so it's seamless. If it wasn't, anytime any of Team Evil entered not completely simultaneously with everone else, the game would be up.

[TRH]

At the cost of a lot of time and money spent on digging through rock. Getting enough people and supplies there to make any kind of safe tunnel would not be cheap, it is the north pole after all.

From the perspective of an adventurer the most efficient method is to just kill everything from the door in, anything short of a TPK can be fixed by healing and ressurection spells, and doing so will make you gradually more powerful and wealthy anyway.

That's what summoned outsiders are for. They don't need to sleep either, so they could work 24/7, while most adventurers can't.

And come on: you can't honestly pretend that no adventurer ever tries to cut the Gordian Knot. Players love to find ways to outsmart the dungeon if it's not infeasible: just ask the group that beat Tomb of Horrors without any casualties by essentially doing what I described and circumventing all of the deathtraps of the most notorious module ever written.

[Skull the Troll]

Kicking the rock does nothing; the rock goes into the teleport and they only see into the teleport, so it's seamless. If it wasn't, anytime any of Team Evil entered not completely simultaneously with everone else, the game would be up.

Hailey disarmed the trap by putting a rat skull across the line. That disabled it for 20 seconds.

[TRH]

Hailey disarmed the trap by putting a rat skull across the line. That disabled it for 20 seconds.

That's not a thing that happens with any random object, though. That skull was purchased specifically because it can be used to disable magical traps, by someone with the proper training.

[Quizatzhaderac]

At the cost of a lot of time and money spent on digging through rock. Getting enough people and supplies there to make any kind of safe tunnel would not be cheap, it is the north pole after all.Also, I'm kind of thinking the digging process would attract the attention of every monster in the cave complex.

At the same time, if the DM is feeling malicious.

[Peelee]

Hailey disarmed the trap by putting a rat skull across the line. That disabled it for 20 seconds.
Haley is specifically able to disarm traps due to her class features. The visual we get is a shorthand for how she does it, but suffice it to say that if Redcloak put a rat skull across the line he would not get the same result.

That's not a thing that happens with any random object, though. That skull was purchased specifically because it can be used to disable magical traps, by someone with the proper training.
No, it was a random object. She just needed some item to do what she was doing (which you were correct re: disabling magical trap by someone with proper training).

[Grim Portent]

That's what summoned outsiders are for. They don't need to sleep either, so they could work 24/7, while most adventurers can't.

And come on: you can't honestly pretend that no adventurer ever tries to cut the Gordian Knot. Players love to find ways to outsmart the dungeon if it's not infeasible: just ask the group that beat Tomb of Horrors without any casualties by essentially doing what I described and circumventing all of the deathtraps of the most notorious module ever written.

Yeah but the Tomb of Horrors has a known (relatively speaking) end point and is a nightmare to approach conventionally, Kraagor's Tomb has hundreds of entrances with no hint of where to go, is less arbitrarily lethal, and the gate is warded against divination. Digging into it without foreknowledge is essentially just blindly poking into an anthill in the hopes of bypassing the ants at the entrance, any given tunnel might not find anything and will take weeks per tunnel compared to clearing the place one door per day.

[TRH]

Also, I'm kind of thinking the digging process would attract the attention of every monster in the cave complex.

At the same time, if the DM is feeling malicious.

Depending on the size of the fake dungeons, it might be hard to get such a precise read on where the tunneling is. At least one castle in the middle ages defeated an undermining attempt by spreading jugs of water all over the floor so they could use the vibrations of the water to detect the enemy sappers, so expecting to locate the tunnel via hearing alone seems a bit optimistic for monsters without tremorsense.


Haley is specifically able to disarm traps due to her class features. The visual we get is a shorthand for how she does it, but suffice it to say that if Redcloak put a rat skull across the line he would not get the same result.

No, it was a random object. She just needed some item to do what she was doing (which you were correct re: disabling magical trap by someone with proper training).

I never got the last book, so I didn't read the bonus strip where she got the skull. Why did she purchase that specifically, then, and why only in the last book when she's had to disarm magical traps for a long time now?

And I guess in a more meta sense: why would you even bother to show her buying it if pretty much any tool would do for that purpose?

[TRH]

Yeah but the Tomb of Horrors has a known (relatively speaking) end point and is a nightmare to approach conventionally, Kraagor's Tomb has hundreds of entrances with no hint of where to go, is less arbitrarily lethal, and the gate is warded against divination. Digging into it without foreknowledge is essentially just blindly poking into an anthill in the hopes of bypassing the ants at the entrance, any given tunnel might not find anything and will take weeks per tunnel compared to clearing the place one door per day.

Weeks per tunnel? How slow do you think a bunch of superhumanly strong elementals and devils that don't need to eat or sleep can dig? And how is approaching the tunnels from one end blindly poking into an anthill while approaching from the other side is somehow not that? You can at least be confident the Gate is more likely to be at the end of a tunnel than the beginning of one.

[Peelee]

I never got the last book, so I didn't read the bonus strip where she got the skull. Why did she purchase that specifically, then, and why only in the last book when she's had to disarm magical traps for a long time now?

And I guess in a more meta sense: why would you even bother to show her buying it if pretty much any tool would do for that purpose?

I think the best description would be that it was a white elephant gift, of sorts. She felt like she couldn't say no due to social pressure (which the givers relied on because they didn't want it anymore).

[Grim Portent]

Weeks per tunnel? How slow do you think a bunch of superhumanly strong elementals and devils that don't need to eat or sleep can dig? And how is approaching the tunnels from one end blindly poking into an anthill while approaching from the other side is somehow not that? You can at least be confident the Gate is more likely to be at the end of a tunnel than the beginning of one.

They still need to use conventional tools to dig, unless they want to hack at the rock with their claws or swords, and pickaxes and shovels can only do so much, plus things need shored up and braced, spoilage needs moved away, various natural hazards can get in the way and so on. Dropping into the middle of a tunnel doesn't tell you which tunnel it is, so you can't eliminate it from your searches, you also don't know how long they are, or what directions they go. If the tunnels were all actually in the same area you could accidently dig into the same one multiple times from different places and not realise until you've already wasted a bunch of time and effort on it.

By going through the doors you can check them off and not risk ever entering a cleared one again. Hell, if you have the ability to summon an army of outsiders to dig for you they'd probably be better used to speedrun the dungeons. A few planar bound minions of sufficient quality would probably make all the dungeon monsters a cakewalk. The dungeons are filled with monsters that emphasize size and strength as a tribute to Kraagor rather than any innate magic or trickery after all, a few well picked celestials or fiends could probably ignore half the things they do.

[TRH]

Dropping into the middle of a tunnel doesn't tell you which tunnel it is, so you can't eliminate it from your searches, you also don't know how long they are, or what directions they go. If the tunnels were all actually in the same area you could accidently dig into the same one multiple times from different places and not realise until you've already wasted a bunch of time and effort on it.


That could be fixed by digging into a tunnel, fighting your way to the end because you should know which way is forward, then digging back to the surface from there, to have a rough idea of how long the tunnels are. From there, because most of the tunnels seem to run parallel, you could keep digging down and to each side to glimpse the end of each tunnel without having to peruse most of them. At least, that's what the intruder might think, when by all indications they'd actually find the hidden service area in practice and not even have to bother with continuing the excavation for longer than a day.

I'd like to stop and point out that your argument is that fighting through every single tunnel at random is so much quicker and cleaner despite massive evidence to the contrary, given how long the most powerful adventuring party on the planet has been stuck here. And given Redcloak's love of summoned outsiders, it seems like those might not be free wins against the monsters inside either.

All of this is to say that a party of intruders might consider this option, and if they tried it, we've seen no indication so far that there would be any defense against their strategy beyond what Serini can contribute personally.

[gatemansgc]

I am now going back to look at panel 3 and think through how this entire tunnel complex works.

i am really looking forward to finding out about it over the next few months/years!

then when we backread in the future it'll be like "wow it was so obvious!"

[KorvinStarmast]

i am really looking forward to finding out about it over the next few months/years!

then when we backread in the future it'll be like "wow it was so obvious!"
Yeah, I suspect that in hindsight it will make all kinds of sense.

I just noticed your location. I was in your part of the country last month for a memorial service at Riverwinds Golf and Tennis Center. (They set up a tented pavilion just outside the main building). The family lives up near King of Prussia, outside of Philly. PA's gov was still banning large gatherings, so they crossed the river and held it there in NJ. (Middle of May)

[Mariele]

Haley doesn't have Darkvision, does she have a wand that will let her see once she goes into the tunnel by herself?

Yay, an update!

[Quizatzhaderac]

Depending on the size of the fake dungeons, it might be hard to get such a precise read on where the tunneling is. At least one castle in the middle ages defeated an undermining attempt by spreading jugs of water all over the floor so they could use the vibrations of the water to detect the enemy sappers, so expecting to locate the tunnel via hearing alone seems a bit optimistic for monsters without tremorsense. That's not analogous at all.

Undermining a castle doesn't involve entering it; if you wanted to actually enter the castle, it would be extremely obvious where and when you're entering.

Also, the defenders were presumably besieged, and expected to lose a fight in open terrain. If they were willing to give up that advantage, they could have easily walked out of their castle and found the sappers' entrance tunnel.

Weeks per tunnel? How slow do you think a bunch of superhumanly strong elementals and devils that don't need to eat or sleep can dig? Well, if we assume each creature has the strength of ten horses, and a hundred creatures, and compare that to modern mining equipment through hard rock .... it should take them a few years.

[Bacon Elemental]

That could be fixed by digging into a tunnel, fighting your way to the end because you should know which way is forward, then digging back to the surface from there, to have a rough idea of how long the tunnels are. From there, because most of the tunnels seem to run parallel, you could keep digging down and to each side to glimpse the end of each tunnel without having to peruse most of them. At least, that's what the intruder might think, when by all indications they'd actually find the hidden service area in practice and not even have to bother with continuing the excavation for longer than a day.

I'd like to stop and point out that your argument is that fighting through every single tunnel at random is so much quicker and cleaner despite massive evidence to the contrary, given how long the most powerful adventuring party on the planet has been stuck here. And given Redcloak's love of summoned outsiders, it seems like those might not be free wins against the monsters inside either.

All of this is to say that a party of intruders might consider this option, and if they tried it, we've seen no indication so far that there would be any defense against their strategy beyond what Serini can contribute personally.

Well, though we haven't seen whats actually in all these fakeout dungeons, I think we can assume they aren't all 5ft wide linear corridors, but long windy passages (to explain how the entrances are packed together) leading to more traditional dungeon layouts. So basically the option boils down to sinking tunnels at random points through thick rock at random points all over a few square miles hoping you hit a dungeon tunnel at *all*. Basically intruders would have to TRY and be digging into the entrance tunnels which (they think) are empty and intruders can just go around opening doors and looking down, in order to hit this access shaft.


Also while the party does contain (probably) the strongest character in the world; an epic sorcerer, a near-epic cleric, and a... unknown mid-high level beastmaster, with the Monster In The Darkness (Of dubious combat employment) tagging along, is hardly the most optimised party composition. And adventurers at least are likely to be drawn in by the immense potential level gains. While the dwarves were being vamped, Team Evil were power-levelling :smallcool:

[WanderingMist]

Even if you don't suspect fundamental chicanery from the dungeon designed by a rogue, entering the dungeon "behind" a bunch of the monsters would have the potential to bypass a ton of fighting.

Perhaps...but how would you get back out?

[JonahFalcon]

Anyone notice Elan is waving himself like Banjo?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Oo I'm almost entirely certain that it's Serini doing this.. but not entirely sure.. we'll have to see how it all plays out..

[King of Nowhere]

curious.
whenever i try to play a rogue like that against my players, it never works. there's always someone rolling high on spot, or someone with the right spell to see past whatever illusion or misdirection the interloper set up.

[TRH]

Well, if we assume each creature has the strength of ten horses, and a hundred creatures, and compare that to modern mining equipment through hard rock .... it should take them a few years.

Your back of the envelope calculation might be a bit more compelling if you included even a vague guesstimate as to how much hard rock needs to be moved. I mean, have you looked at how closely packed the doors are? From the perspective of someone who hasn't entered a door yet, there's more tunnel than rock in that cliff face. And the peek at the inside we got in this latest strip tells us that that is literally true. The tunnels are visibly separated by several feet of rock apiece. So tell me again how many years it would take creatures with superhuman strength to tunnel five feet or so.


Well, though we haven't seen whats actually in all these fakeout dungeons, I think we can assume they aren't all 5ft wide linear corridors, but long windy passages (to explain how the entrances are packed together) leading to more traditional dungeon layouts. So basically the option boils down to sinking tunnels at random points through thick rock at random points all over a few square miles hoping you hit a dungeon tunnel at *all*. Basically intruders would have to TRY and be digging into the entrance tunnels which (they think) are empty and intruders can just go around opening doors and looking down, in order to hit this access shaft.


But again, we can't assume that everyone would enter a fakeout dungeon and conclude they're magically bigger on the inside before trying something different, for the same reason hiding the real gate under Kraagor's statue would be an unacceptable risk. By all outward appearances, the tunnels are extremely close together and so densely packed that any given square foot of the plateau above is probably three or four times as likely to be above a tunnel as not. Digging your way into just one would seem like quick and easy work, and if something went horribly wrong, you could just go back and do the dungeon crawl "properly" without having lost much.


Perhaps...but how would you get back out?

Worst case scenario, retrace your steps and fly. Might also be possible to dig your way directly up from your current position, especially if you've penetrated one of the upper tunnels first, which seems likely, given, again, they seem so densely packed.

[Fish]

Sure we can; the multidimensional stone does not stop them from entering the tunnels at all. The only barrier to the tunnels is the door. Thus, the only possible use the multidimensional stone could have would be that the entire ravine was built up out of it, since if it was just the parts Redcloak could see, then they could just pass from tunnel to tunnel once they got in the door.
Redcloak has seen:
* the ravine
* the interior foyer of the door on the near side of the teleportation line
* the "fake" tunnels that are reached after activating the teleportation line

Redcloak has not seen, as far as we know:
* the "real" tunnels that are reached without activating the teleportation line
* the caverns behind the "real" tunnels

I am assuming that the bits Redcloak has seen, he has also tested. I am not assuming he has tested the places he hasn't been to. We don't know how that teleportation line works, either, or where the "fake" tunnels are located relative to the ravine. We don't even know where the gate is located with respect to any of this. We think that the "real" tunnels are geographically within the ravine, but that doesn't mean they must necessarily be made of the same stuff. Why would they be, if the Bad Guys were never intended to see them? We would have to assume that Serini had a virtually unlimited budget and just made some caverns out of MDS for her "backstage" area just for grins and giggles, even though nobody would ever go there except her and her allies.

The whole of Monster Hollow is like ... an inverted Baked Alaska. There's a hollow space (the ravine), a protective layer (the meringue, which insulates against heat) and the ice cream (where the "real" tunnels are, and presumably the Gate as well). The doors normally lead through the meringue into the ice cream. But there's a teleportation line, so that before you get to the ice cream, you're sent off to a pile of meringue somewhere else to explore all the tunnels you care to see. There's no need for it to be all meringue — it could be, but it's not necessary to assume so, yet.

[Peelee]

Yes, I will cop to a needlessly complicated setup that relies purely on line-of-sight being a possibility. Similarly, me winning the power all is a possibility.

[danielxcutter]

Also, I'm kind of thinking the digging process would attract the attention of every monster in the cave complex.

At the same time, if the DM is feeling malicious.

So one by one of the antagonists try it, literally every single one of them at once teleport right next to the Order if they do. Yeah, judging by DStP and the Vector Legion fight I can see that.


Well, if we assume each creature has the strength of ten horses, and a hundred creatures, and compare that to modern mining equipment through hard rock .... it should take them a few years.

The right creatures and just a bit of magic would work wonders for drastically speeding up the process though. “A few years” is rather an exaggeration… and it’s not like the Gate is going anywhere.

[Mariele]

Hope no one has trypophobia.
I actually do, fairly badly, but for some reason I didn't find this at all bothersome. I think the stylized shading makes it tolerable. Tenderized meat or morel mushrooms on the other hand... that's enough to keep me awake/bother me for hours. :smalleek:


So, I checked the intertubez thinking "It would be really nifty if there was a new OotS for my birthday" and there it was!

Thanks, Giant!
Happy birthday!

At least Blackwing is still keeping watch at the entrance. Wonder if we'll cut back to him seeing Team Evil emerge just as the order runs into Serini?

[Peelee]

mushrooms on the other hand... that's enough to keep me awake/bother me for hours. :smalleek:

I will bravely try to eat as many as I can so there are fewer for you to worry about.

[JT]

Well, my wondering about V not being shown following along with the rest of the party is mooted, rapidly (and in book form, it won't even show up as a questionable thing).

I didn't have any expectations that the IFCC was exercising their second option, but thought that V might have some insight on (not) chasing after without considering options. But... apparently just an already-crowded panel.

(Edit rather than posting 2x in a row)

Does anyone else see more than one cave opening in the "far" side of the underground ravine (for lack of a better term)?
Panel 3 shows the edge of one as the party is coming out of their tunnel and into the ravine.
Panel 4 (Elan puppet) looks like it could be that same cave opening, but it isn't certain (imho).
Panels 5, 6, and 7 show (one must assume) the cave that Elan had popped up from Roy and Haley's viewpoint, and unless there's been some radical moving around, that cave is on the "far" side. And there isn't a tightly-packed array of cave openings around it, which also supports it being on the other side.


Looks to *me* as if this could be the cave that Serini uses to access the back sides of the tunnel/cave array (which she T-ports to in the first place).

[BriarHobbit]

This is very exciting. Time for the Order to start casting buffs. There are way too many hiding places. Mind controlled Elan's angle as he appeared from the cave entrance seemed wrong. Could that have just been an illusion?

[elros]

I actually do, fairly badly, but for some reason I didn't find this at all bothersome. I think the stylized shading makes it tolerable. Tenderized meat or morel mushrooms on the other hand... that's enough to keep me awake/bother me for hours. :smalleek:
I had never heard of trypophobia, but when I did an internet search and saw some pictures, I had an immediate negative reaction. The same happens when I see coral and certain mushrooms, but I never knew there was a term for it.

[Shining Wrath]

So ... each Monster Hollow door leads to two areas. The fake area if you don't spot the trap, which is full of monsters. And this area if you do spot the trap, which is full of Serini.

I wonder if there's another side to Monster Hollow we just haven't been shown yet, because otherwise all the tunnels on Elan's side are going deeper into the mountain, which represents a lot of work for dubious benefit.

[danielxcutter]

So ... each Monster Hollow door leads to two areas. The fake area if you don't spot the trap, which is full of monsters. And this area if you do spot the trap, which is full of Serini.

I wonder if there's another side to Monster Hollow we just haven't been shown yet, because otherwise all the tunnels on Elan's side are going deeper into the mountain, which represents a lot of work for dubious benefit.

I agree with Roy that the odds of the fake dungeons being the only line of defense are marginally less than those of certain people not complaining about the goblin subplot.

[Skull the Troll]

That could be fixed by digging into a tunnel, fighting your way to the end because you should know which way is forward, then digging back to the surface from there, to have a rough idea of how long the tunnels are. From there, because most of the tunnels seem to run parallel, you could keep digging down and to each side to glimpse the end of each tunnel without having to peruse most of them. At least, that's what the intruder might think, when by all indications they'd actually find the hidden service area in practice and not even have to bother with continuing the excavation for longer than a day.

I'd like to stop and point out that your argument is that fighting through every single tunnel at random is so much quicker and cleaner despite massive evidence to the contrary, given how long the most powerful adventuring party on the planet has been stuck here. And given Redcloak's love of summoned outsiders, it seems like those might not be free wins against the monsters inside either.

All of this is to say that a party of intruders might consider this option, and if they tried it, we've seen no indication so far that there would be any defense against their strategy beyond what Serini can contribute personally.

You're assuming the tunnel is straight, doesn't branch or loop back on itself. Heck you're assuming you know where you are digging to. If you just pick a random spot on the ground your more likely to keep digging until you hit magma than hit the tunnel. The closer you dig to the enterence the less "bypass" your tunnel gets you. The farther you dig from it the more likely you are to miss it all together.

[TRH]

You're assuming the tunnel is straight, doesn't branch or loop back on itself. Heck you're assuming you know where you are digging to. If you just pick a random spot on the ground your more likely to keep digging until you hit magma than hit the tunnel. The closer you dig to the enterence the less "bypass" your tunnel gets you. The farther you dig from it the more likely you are to miss it all together.

And everyone else seems to assume that despite the cliff face being stuffed from top to bottom with tunnels, tunnel makes up a tiny percentage of the interior and the vast majority of it is still solid rock inside. Which, as I pointed out, this last strip proves is objectively wrong. Even if you don't hit the specific tunnel you'd expect going in a straight line from the doors, you're still overwhelmingly likely to hit a tunnel.

[Skull the Troll]

And everyone else seems to assume that despite the cliff face being stuffed from top to bottom with tunnels, tunnel makes up a tiny percentage of the interior and the vast majority of it is still solid rock inside. Which, as I pointed out, this last strip proves is objectively wrong. Even if you don't hit the specific tunnel you'd expect going in a straight line from the doors, you're still overwhelmingly likely to hit a tunnel.

Unless you know the stone is multidimensional, and that after opening a door what's on the inside doesn't conform to normal physics and instead relies on the rules of unknown magic. Remember the Quidditch Cup tents in Harry potter? What part of the tent do you cut open to end up in Ron's room? I expect the defenses here are not just "Door-Lotto" with or without dimensional/teleporting traps. The original plan for this place was that it would defend itself. Serini wasn't even going to hang around. That means they expected that both a careful search of the doors, or digging up the entire valley would not be a successful strategy for finding the gate.

[TRH]

Unless you know the stone is multidimensional, and that after opening a door what's on the inside doesn't conform to normal physics and instead relies on the rules of unknown magic. Remember the Quidditch Cup tents in Harry potter? What part of the tent do you cut open to end up in Ron's room? I expect the defenses here are not just "Door-Lotto" with or without dimensional/teleporting traps. The original plan for this place was that it would defend itself. Serini wasn't even going to hang around. That means they expected that both a careful search of the doors, or digging up the entire valley would not be a successful strategy for finding the gate.

But there's no reason to assume that everyone will try doors before attempting to find a workaround, in which case they might assume the laws of physics still generally govern the doors. And you're welcome to assume there are countermeasures in place to impede an attempted bypass via excavation, but 1: I asked initially whether such defenses existed, and nobody had anything specific in mind besides direct intervention from Serini, 2: We haven't seen any such countermeasures, if they exist, and 3: I just spent the last 20-30 posts getting dogpiled by everyone telling me that this is all irrelevant, because tunneling from the rear is so obviously a dumb and worthless idea that nobody would ever attempt it, in which case preparing defenses against the stupid and terrible strategy is equally pointless. So if anything, I should be the one convincing you that Serini should have something prepared for that eventuality, with you arguing that such an absurdity isn't worth taking into consideration at all.

[KorvinStarmast]

I just spent the last 20-30 posts getting dogpiled by everyone telling me that this is all irrelevant, because tunneling from the rear is so obviously a dumb and worthless idea that nobody would ever attempt it, in which case preparing defenses against the stupid and terrible strategy is equally pointless. If someone tries to tunnel into the complex, won't the bugbears attack the excavation/construction crew?
Per Oona's brief exposition (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html), Monster Hollow provides the Bugbears with some useful plunder; disrupting their source of stuff would be a threat to their village. In her words:

Monster Hollow important to bugbear clan.
In self defense, they will attack and drive off the excavation/construction crew.

[TRH]

If someone tries to tunnel into the complex, won't the bugbears attack the excavation/construction crew?
Per Oona's brief exposition, Monster Hollow provides the Bugbears with some useful plunder; disrupting their source of stuff would be a threat to their village. In self defense, they will attack and drive off the excavation/construction crew.

Perhaps, but we don't have a great sense of how tough they are besides Oona. And you'd expect Xykon to conscript the whole village if they represented an obvious source of high-level muscle, seeing how conscripting goblinoids as cannon fodder is kind of his thing.

In any case, a party that's not strong enough to defeat either a good number of the monsters in the Hollow or the native bugbears wouldn't have great chances of succeeding in seizing the Gate no matter what they tried, so that's neither here nor there.

[danielxcutter]

Unless you know the stone is multidimensional, and that after opening a door what's on the inside doesn't conform to normal physics and instead relies on the rules of unknown magic. Remember the Quidditch Cup tents in Harry potter? What part of the tent do you cut open to end up in Ron's room? I expect the defenses here are not just "Door-Lotto" with or without dimensional/teleporting traps. The original plan for this place was that it would defend itself. Serini wasn't even going to hang around. That means they expected that both a careful search of the doors, or digging up the entire valley would not be a successful strategy for finding the gate.

I'd bet actual money that "multidimensional stone" here only means "no you can't use incorporealness or etherealness to cheese this dungeon, and possibly not teleportation either". Incorporeal and ethereal beings are partly on the Ethereal Plane, which is basically parallel to the Material so they seem to phase through most things. It's why force effects hit them just fine; those affect the Ethereal as well.

[bunsen_h]

I'm reminded of one of my favourite Girl Genius pages (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100226).


I'd bet actual money that "multidimensional stone" here only means "no you can't use incorporealness or etherealness to cheese this dungeon, and possibly not teleportation either". Incorporeal and ethereal beings are partly on the Ethereal Plane, which is basically parallel to the Material so they seem to phase through most things. It's why force effects hit them just fine; those affect the Ethereal as well.

I'd bet actual money -- though not extremely large amounts of it -- that "multidimensional stone" is what it says on the label: stone that has more than the usual three physical dimensions. That it has sections of tunnel whose connections can be changed by means such as the "trap lines" at the tunnel entrances, so all of those tunnels and dungeons can fit into a much smaller three-dimensional volume than would otherwise be expected. "Bigger on the inside than on the outside", like the TARDIS from Doctor Who (though probably not like several spaces described in that way from C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle).

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm reminded of one of my favourite Girl Genius pages (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100226).



I'd bet actual money -- though not extremely large amounts of it -- that "multidimensional stone" is what it says on the label: stone that has more than the usual three physical dimensions. That it has sections of tunnel whose connections can be changed by means such as the "trap lines" at the tunnel entrances, so all of those tunnels and dungeons can fit into a much smaller three-dimensional volume than would otherwise be expected. "Bigger on the inside than on the outside", like the TARDIS from Doctor Who (though probably not like several spaces described in that way from C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle).
Maybe a tesseract kind of thing?

[TRH]

I'm reminded of one of my favourite Girl Genius pages (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100226).


I'd bet actual money -- though not extremely large amounts of it -- that "multidimensional stone" is what it says on the label: stone that has more than the usual three physical dimensions. That it has sections of tunnel whose connections can be changed by means such as the "trap lines" at the tunnel entrances, so all of those tunnels and dungeons can fit into a much smaller three-dimensional volume than would otherwise be expected. "Bigger on the inside than on the outside", like the TARDIS from Doctor Who (though probably not like several spaces described in that way from C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle).

That's still just speculation at this point. All we know for sure about it is that it impedes ethereal/incorporeal travel. And what we're seeing on the inside right now in the strip hasn't defied Euclidean geometry or anything like that for the Order.

[danielxcutter]

In other words, I'm guessing that the entire mountain's basically got a Ghost Touch enchantment.

You know that'd probably be hilarious with a Hulking Hurler build.

[NobleCuriosity]

My thought exactly when I saw this. Specifically I was reminded of that (fake) picture form the early internet of the larvae that tunneled holes in someone's breast.


Why oh why have you done this to me. I could have gone my whole life without reading those words, thank you very much.

[carrion pigeons]

In a sense but it was never going to work, really, even if one tunnel was the true one, the mitd could have made Team Evil find faster or just make them start over. What actually matters is that he took some action with the intent of thwarting Xykon.

There is an argument that it was more likely to help than hurt, given the reasoning that causing delay is as good as causing failure. Here's a simple example: 3 doors, 1 try per day, job needs to be complete in 3 days. Without interference, 100% chance to finish. With interference, 7/9 chance to finish.

The mean completion time is the same in both cases, and the interference will cause successes to happen faster in general, but it will cause *some* attempts that would have been successes to take longer, which is good enough to turn them into failed attempts.
Probabilistically, you're transforming a uniform distribution into a right-skewed one with the same mean.

Upshot is that MITD's action was more than just symbolic.

This is an important rule of thumb for anyone who wants to gamble. If the odds are against you, then the correct choice between increasing or reducing the variance (given equal investment costs) is to increase it. Equally, if the odds favor you, you want to do what you can to reduce it.

[arimareiji]

Why oh why have you done this to me. I could have gone my whole life without reading those words, thank you very much.

Dead serious: Whatever you do, do not go looking. That family of fake pictures can't be erased from memory, and will continue disturbing you for years every time someone references them. :smalleek:

[greenfunkman]

I'm guessing invisible dragon for Serini's orange voice, basically because the ethics of dragon colours have been discussed a lot in this strip and an invisible one doesn't have a colour. Plus it's big enough to carry paladins and might have swirly enchantment magic.

[Peelee]

I'm reminded of one of my favourite Girl Genius pages (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100226).



I'd bet actual money -- though not extremely large amounts of it -- that "multidimensional stone" is what it says on the label: stone that has more than the usual three physical dimensions. That it has sections of tunnel whose connections can be changed by means such as the "trap lines" at the tunnel entrances, so all of those tunnels and dungeons can fit into a much smaller three-dimensional volume than would otherwise be expected. "Bigger on the inside than on the outside", like the TARDIS from Doctor Who (though probably not like several spaces described in that way from C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle).

That would be extradimensional (eg a bag of holding, where the inside is extradimensional space). I always read "multidimensional stone" as being what it says on the tin - stone that exists in multiple donenions (eg the Astral plane, and ethereal plane, since those are the most common routes to bypass physical barriers). No need for it to be anything more.

Though I could be wrong.

[TRH]

I'm guessing invisible dragon for Serini's orange voice, basically because the ethics of dragon colours have been discussed a lot in this strip and an invisible one doesn't have a colour. Plus it's big enough to carry paladins and might have swirly enchantment magic.

Well, there's no orange chromatic dragon that I'm aware of. It could be a copper or brass dragon, maybe. Still, plenty of things could carry a couple of paladins and have enchantment magic while being far more likely to take orders from an elderly halfling.

[TuringTest]

I had never heard of trypophobia, but when I did an internet search and saw some pictures, I had an immediate negative reaction. The same happens when I see coral and certain mushrooms, but I never knew there was a term for it.

This happened to me with the particular phobia I have, to small jewelry (in my case, particularly rings and piercings); I found there's also a name for it, kosmemophobia. It's weird how you may have a personal trait that, if there's not a word for it in common use, you may not know how to explain to others; being LGBT+ used to be that way until a few decades ago.

It's hard to find the right term when it doesn't roll in conversation; though thanks to the internet, it becomes possible; there may be even a whole wiki for it (https://phobia.wikia.org/wiki/Kosmemophobia).

[Ionathus]

Dead serious: Whatever you do, do not go looking. That family of fake pictures can't be erased from memory, and will continue disturbing you for years every time someone references them. :smalleek:

Seconding this. I ran into it on some Funnyjunk clone back in the day, either as an entry or a popup. It has stuck with me.

I still can't stand lotus seed pods, and when I see them displayed in a vase in someone's house my first thought is always "this person is a serial killer."

[bunsen_h]

That would be extradimensional (eg a bag of holding, where the inside is extradimensional space). I always read "multidimensional stone" as being what it says on the tin - stone that exists in multiple donenions (eg the Astral plane, and ethereal plane, since those are the most common routes to bypass physical barriers). No need for it to be anything more.

Though I could be wrong.

Would that cover something like the house in Heinlein's "—And He Built a Crooked House—"? Which had, as its main gimmick, the four-physically-dimensional structure with people running seamlessly from one room to another without noticing any transition, inside what appeared from the outside to be a one-room structure? Since there was a degree of ambiguity in the connectivity, one could travel to a couple of different places by crossing exactly the same threshold. Eight 3-dimensional cubical rooms were "superimposed" in the 4th dimension.


"As I see it, in a four-dimensional figure a three-dimensional man has two choices every time he crosses a line of juncture, like a wall or a threshold. Ordinarily he will make a ninety-degree turn through the fourth dimension, only he doesn't feel it with his three dimensions. Look." He stepped through the very window that he had fallen out of a moment before. Stepped through and arrived in the dining room, where he stood, still talking.

"I watched where I was going and arrived where I intended to." He stepped back into the lounge. "The time before I didn't watch and I moved on through normal space and fell out of the house. It must be a matter of subconscious orientation."

[Peelee]

Would that cover something like the house in Heinlein's "—And He Built a Crooked House—"? Which had, as its main gimmick, the four-physically-dimensional structure with people running seamlessly from one room to another without noticing any transition, inside what appeared from the outside to be a one-room structure? Since there was a degree of ambiguity in the connectivity, one could travel to a couple of different places by crossing exactly the same threshold. Eight 3-dimensional cubical rooms were "superimposed" in the 4th dimension.

Not familiar with most of Heinlein's work, so I can't say. Decently familiar with a good chunk of Monte Cook's work. :smallwink:

[KorvinStarmast]

Not familiar with most of Heinlein's work, so I can't say. Decently familiar with a good chunk of Monte Cook's work. :smallwink: My friend, this is worth a read. :smallsmile:
And He Built a Crooked House (https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v26n06_1941-02_dtsg0318-LennyS/page/n67/mode/2up).
I first read it in high school.

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

So, is there a reason V hasn't tried to cast Dispel Magic on Elan here?

Seems like a pretty obvious move. "Oh a party member is obviously charmed. They are in range but instead of trying to dispel the charm we will just follow them into what is obviously a trap."

[hungrycrow]

So, is there a reason V hasn't tried to cast Dispel Magic on Elan here?

Seems like a pretty obvious move. "Oh a party member is obviously charmed. They are in range but instead of trying to dispel the charm we will just follow them into what is obviously a trap."

Maybe he's out of range? There are a lot of cavern walls here for Elan to disappear behind, maybe V isn't getting line of sight on their turn.

[arimareiji]

So, is there a reason V hasn't tried to cast Dispel Magic on Elan here?

Seems like a pretty obvious move. "Oh a party member is obviously charmed. They are in range but instead of trying to dispel the charm we will just follow them into what is obviously a trap."


Maybe he's out of range? There are a lot of cavern walls here for Elan to disappear behind, maybe V isn't getting line of sight on their turn.

Good question and answer (which I take as meaning when everyone rolled for initiative, V GOT A 4! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html)).

Come to think of it, that might be why we didn't see V for the rest of that strip, which led to confusion in the forums about whether the IFCC borrowed his soul.

And the fact that the start of it was more-or-less Elan's normal behavior probably didn't help... V might have been taking a page from Roy's book and didn't see the onset of swirly-eyes because if you don't look directly at Elan's antics, they can't kill your brain (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html). (Particularly considering how well that episode turned out.)

[Gusion]

Good question and answer (which I take as meaning when everyone rolled for initiative, V GOT A 4! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html)).

Come to think of it, that might be why we didn't see V for the rest of that strip, which led to confusion in the forums about whether the IFCC borrowed his soul.

And the fact that the start of it was more-or-less Elan's normal behavior probably didn't help... V might have been taking a page from Roy's book and didn't see the onset of swirly-eyes because if you don't look directly at Elan's antics, they can't kill your brain (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html). (Particularly considering how well that episode turned out.)

While a bad initiative score is ... possible, I guess, one would think V would have expressed the notion of casting Dispel Magic on Elan at least.

[theinsulabot]

I really do love the way Roy and Haley's mutual respect and casual reliance on each other shines through in the way they approach problems.

EDIT: also it may have already been covered before, but I imagine the reason belkar is not going with Haley despite his own stealth is belkar is historically awful against enemies that intelligently use charm person. Yes he has his robes and his trinket, but it may simply be it was still more risk then benefit by sending him after someone who evidentially opened encounters by charming people with crap saves

[mjasghar]

Orb of light seems to be what the actual spell is and that’s 1st level as well

[Peelee]

Orb of light seems to be what the actual spell is and that’s 1st level as well

Between the idea of the Giant using someone else's homebrew spell or his own homebrew (just fudging a minor aspect of an official spell, really), I'd bet on the latter. Ten gold says the spell is what it says on the tin, Light.

[F.Harr]

I feel like the naritive's drawing them closer to the gate.