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Emperor Demonking
2007-11-13, 12:26 PM
At first level core only, between each class, how would it go?

Starbuck_II
2007-11-13, 12:35 PM
At first level core only, between each class, how would it go?

I'd say Druid. You have 2 PCs at level 1 (I consider a 2 HD Riding Dog PC-like at least it is CR 1).
Entangle would win the day versus any non-good Ref savers. Fighter would be stuck. Just Sling stuff at him with Riding Dog inbetween the two of you so can't charge you.

Against Rogues and Monks: Well, the Riding Dog is a Competent warrior.

So I say Druid.

Kizara
2007-11-13, 12:35 PM
Elven barbarian wins. Take Power Attack.

1) Immune to sleep.

2) Best damage and hp with rage.

Spiked Chain trip fighter has a good shot too though, but could get screwed by sleep.

EDIT: Nope, above poster is right, elven druid wins.

cupkeyk
2007-11-13, 12:37 PM
I would say its a toss up between Barbarian, (with his acceptable Will save while raging, he will walk away from the wizard ('s corpse) ) or the Paladin, with good saves on Will and Fair offensive capability.

Crow
2007-11-13, 12:52 PM
I'm going to have to go with the monk on this one...

Just kidding!

We're talking about a Battle Royale here, so everybody is going to be fighting at once, which will somewhat mitigate the druid's advantage in having the animal companion. Barbarian rage isn't going to last long enough to pull him through the whole battle, and the casters just aren't going to have the gas to stay up the whole time.

I'm going to have to go with the elf spiked chain fighter. Reach, combat reflexes. You don't need to trip everybody, just prevent them from getting to you without having to take five-foot steps.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-11-13, 12:57 PM
The rogue wins.

Everyone else kills each other, then the rogue sneak attacks the last one.

Healing spells can also effectively increase your hp, giving divine casters another advantage.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-13, 12:58 PM
At first level core only, between each class, how would it go?

Whomever wins initiative, I'd say. Most characters can one-shot most other characters at first level.

E.g. barbarian can smash the wizard; or wizard can cast color spray. Whomever goes first probably wins.

Guildorn Tanaleth
2007-11-13, 01:06 PM
Whomever wins initiative, I'd say. Most characters can one-shot most other characters at first level.

E.g. barbarian can smash the wizard; or wizard can cast color spray. Whomever goes first probably wins.

Actually, whoever goes first stands a far better chance of winning, due to his or her grammatical accuracy. As Batman himself once said, "Good grammar is essential to crime-fighting."

Corlis
2007-11-13, 01:11 PM
It also depends on whether the classes have the opportunity to get ready for the battle; a fighter needn't prepare for combat, so he would have an advantage over a mage who didn't have a chance to cast mage armor. Likewise with barbarians raging and so forth.

Crow
2007-11-13, 01:18 PM
This isn't one-on-one. Battle Royale. Everyone is there, at the same time. The importance of Initiative, while usually very important, is somewhat reduced.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-13, 01:21 PM
Actually, whoever goes first stands a far better chance of winning, due to his or her grammatical accuracy. As Batman himself once said, "Good grammar is essential to crime-fighting."

:vaarsuvius: proven his wrong, thuogh, on the dragon Magazin.

:smalltongue:



This isn't one-on-one. Battle Royale. Everyone is there, at the same time.
Okay. In that case, my bet is on the Bard, who has the greatest chance of getting a Wand of Some Area Attack Spell to work.

Jasdoif
2007-11-13, 01:21 PM
If I remember the last time this came around...the wizard won by selling the starting spellbook (sale value over 1,000gp) and buying a bunch of trained dogs to maul everyone else.

Person_Man
2007-11-13, 01:44 PM
Can I use Core MM races? Is it 1st level, or ECL 1?

-Cor-
2007-11-13, 01:49 PM
Why theorize about it? Why not just do it?

Get 8 of your friends, all of you roll up 8 point-buy core-only characters. Have 8 battles in a 100x100 ft room where you all start at equal distances. Roll initiative and go from there.

Track the 8 battles and see who wins more often.

This way you have 8 different opinions on how to build each class at 1st level which "should" run the gamut of builds.

Don't have 8 friends? 4 friends with 8 characters playing two at a time would work as well I suppose.

Crow
2007-11-13, 01:52 PM
Why theorize about it? Why not just do it?

Get 8 of your friends, all of you roll up 8 point-buy core-only characters. Have 8 battles in a 100x100 ft room where you all start at equal distances. Roll initiative and go from there.

Track the 8 battles and see who wins more often.

This way you have 8 different opinions on how to build each class at 1st level which "should" run the gamut of builds.

Don't have 8 friends? 4 friends with 8 characters playing two at a time would work as well I suppose.

Last time we did anything like that, the winner ended up being a half-orc with a double axe.

Selling the spellbook and geting the dog pack, while effective, is certainly not in the spirit of the discussion. =)

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-11-13, 01:53 PM
To be honest, I don't think you can predict the outcome of this battle, there are simply to many factors. Sure the druid has a good chance, but what if everybody decide he's a thread and gang up on him, any class can be taken out by the sleep spell from the wizard/sorcerer.
My best bet would be half-elf with any class that has diplomacy as a class skill.

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 02:14 PM
Elven Barbarian with a Heavy Crossbow, lots of Crossbow Bolts, and the Run feat could have a decent chance, sticking to maximum bow range.

Starbuck_II
2007-11-13, 02:39 PM
To be honest, I don't think you can predict the outcome of this battle, there are simply to many factors. Sure the druid has a good chance, but what if everybody decide he's a thread and gang up on him, any class can be taken out by the sleep spell from the wizard/sorcerer.
My best bet would be half-elf with any class that has diplomacy as a class skill.

Druid have good Will save + Wisdom primary stat: I doubt they will fall asleep.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-13, 02:51 PM
Either the init winner (unless they get unlucky and miss), or the guy with two people on his team. Be it a duskblade, cleric, barbarian, or whatever class you fancy... all can do very high damage that will pretty much wipe out any single character they hit. Of course, the druid is two people at level 1, so that may not work against him.

Hyozo
2007-11-13, 02:53 PM
Druid have good Will save + Wisdom primary stat: I doubt they will fall asleep.

As do Clerics, and while they may not have an animal companion they do get metal armor, effective weapons, and one more first level spell.

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 02:54 PM
Either the init winner

I guess that would be the Human Fighter, who can take three feats that improve Initiative - but that only really helps for a round-robin fight, not so much for a battle royale.


or the guy with two people on his team.

You mean the Bard? :smallsmile:

Setra
2007-11-13, 02:56 PM
I'm gonna vote the Druid.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-11-13, 02:57 PM
Druid have good Will save + Wisdom primary stat: I doubt they will fall asleep.

which is is +6 if they have WIS 18, a wizard/sorcerer with INT/CHA 18 has a spell DC of 15, if they took spell focus(enchantment) it is 16 giving druid 45% or 50% chance to fall a sleep, not as likely as the fighter but certainly possible.

Adumbration
2007-11-13, 02:57 PM
Get something like... Half-orc cleric of Kord, pick Strength domain (enlarge rules low level), get good stats on strength and wisdom and watch the enemies get slaughtered by a 14 feet tall bastard with a greatsword.

You should get away against sleep with your will save.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-13, 02:58 PM
Get something like... Half-orc cleric of Kord, pick Strength domain (enlarge rules low level), get good stats on strength and wisdom and watch the enemies get slaughtered by a 14 feet tall bastard with a greatsword.

You should get away against sleep with your will save.

Don't forget to throw in things like Blade of Blood or Powerful Charge or Rapid Assault or Law Devotion.

Setra
2007-11-13, 03:00 PM
I somehow doubt the Wizard would win.

Everyone would target him first.

Hyozo
2007-11-13, 03:01 PM
I'm gonna vote the Druid.

Sure, because a dog is infinitely better than good equipment and 1d8+2 extra hit points.

Setra
2007-11-13, 03:04 PM
Sure, because a dog is infinitely better than good equipment and 1d8+2 extra hit points.
Well at level one he could have two wolves.

I had a better explanation for why I voted druid but I forgot it.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-13, 03:05 PM
I somehow doubt the Wizard would win.

Everyone would target him first.

That's a good point. Whichever class is considered the "winner" by this thread won't actually win, because everybody will target him first.

If you go with 8 friends, in the second round several people will want to take out the first round's winner. There's a lot of diplomacy involved here, and not of the kind you can override with a charisma check.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-13, 03:11 PM
Wait, you want to have EVERYONE in there at the same time? It'll practically be luck. You can't really call it in such a mass melee.

brian c
2007-11-13, 03:12 PM
The monk would do pretty well in this if he just runs away. Let everyone else kill each other, then come clean up whoever is left. Might not work, but the monk should at least be able to guarantee second place. All good saves, plus wisdom and dex are primary stats (and con is always helpful). The monk isn't going down to anyone's spells at first level, most likely.

Setra
2007-11-13, 03:15 PM
Wait, you want to have EVERYONE in there at the same time? It'll practically be luck. You can't really call it in such a mass melee.
Pretty much..

Sure the barbarian could win.. or he could be killed by the Ranger... or the Monk... or the Wizard...or anyone else.

At this point anyone could kill anyone so it doesn't really matter.

But the Druid has more anyones, so I still go for him despite the fact it makes no sense.

And I'm tired.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-11-13, 03:20 PM
That's a good point. Whichever class is considered the "winner" by this thread won't actually win, because everybody will target him first.

If you go with 8 friends, in the second round several people will want to take out the first round's winner. There's a lot of diplomacy involved here, and not of the kind you can override with a charisma check.


Wait, you want to have EVERYONE in there at the same time? It'll practically be luck. You can't really call it in such a mass melee.
It seems that more people came to the conclusion I came to a few posts ago.


Sure, because a dog is infinitely better than good equipment and 1d8+2 extra hit points.

What character gets 1d8+2 more hitpoints that a druid?
And yes, an animal companion is better the the ability to wear heavy armour, especially if you can't even afford full plate.

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 03:20 PM
That's a good point. Whichever class is considered the "winner" by this thread won't actually win, because everybody will target him first.

If you go with 8 friends, in the second round several people will want to take out the first round's winner. There's a lot of diplomacy involved here, and not of the kind you can override with a charisma check.

Anyone here play Risk? Exactly the same.

I thought for the sake of this battle royale we were assuming just class v. class, not player v. player interaction. That's a whole different story.

Setra
2007-11-13, 03:23 PM
Anyone here play Risk? Exactly the same.

I thought for the sake of this battle royale we were assuming just class v. class, not player v. player interaction. That's a whole different story.
The problem is, there is always player interaction.

Always.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-13, 03:23 PM
Anyone here play Risk? Exactly the same.

I thought for the sake of this battle royale we were assuming just class v. class, not player v. player interaction. That's a whole different story.

And not very relevant to class.

Hyozo
2007-11-13, 03:27 PM
What character gets 1d8+2 more hitpoints that a druid?
And yes, an animal companion is better the the ability to wear heavy armour, especially if you can't even afford full plate.

Cleric due to having one extra spell of his domain (and quite a few chose healing, which makes your effective level for casting the CLW it gives you 2 instead of just 1.) A cleric always has one more spell per spell level than a druid thanks to domains. The cleric also gets all simple weapons for once he is out of spells and, if he has War as his other domain (How? he's a battle medic/who cares), gets one martial weapon and WF with it as a bonus feat.

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 03:27 PM
The problem is, there is always player interaction.

Always.

Not necessarily. Don't let the players talk to each other, or know who is playing what character.

Otherwise, you're just playing Diplomacy.


And not very relevant to class.

Agreed.

Setra
2007-11-13, 03:28 PM
Not necessarily. Don't let the players talk to each other, or know who is playing what character.

Otherwise, you're just playing Diplomacy.
Yes but the class will always vary from player to player.

Edit: Aaand I apparently forgot the definition of interaction at some point.

I should go to sleep... .. but we're having pizza for dinner... in about 3 hours.

Right. Are you agreeing with what I said? I can't tell.
I don't know anymore, I'mma stop posting in this thread :smalltongue:

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 03:29 PM
Yes but the class will always vary from player to player.

Right. Are you agreeing with what I said? I can't tell.


Edit: Aaand I apparently forgot the definition of interaction at some point.

I should go to sleep... .. but we're having pizza for dinner... in about 3 hours.

:smallsmile: Pizza sounds good right about now...


I don't know anymore, I'mma stop posting in this thread :smalltongue:

It's okay, just let the men in the white lab coats take you to your room :smallbiggrin:

Zaeron
2007-11-13, 03:33 PM
Not necessarily. Don't let the players talk to each other, or know who is playing what character.

Otherwise, you're just playing Diplomacy.



Agreed.

Even not talking to eachother, even if you randomized which players are playing which classes in each round, people are still aware of the performance of past rounds. It makes solid tactical sense to target the "strongest" opponent on the field first. The wizard and the ranger don't need to talk to eachother, or even know who is playing what, to know that if the Barbarian gets into melee with either of them they lose, and since they're first level, the barbarian is almost certain to get into melee with them.

Of course, there are many other possible targets, but since most classes are tier two, you could reasonable expect that even with no player interaction whatsoever, most 'tier two' classes would target whichever of the tier 1 classes they viewed as most dangerous. I suspect the barbarian, cleric and druid would find themselves killed first by the other six players.

Edit: Also, the druid is not as good as he first sounds, or rather, suffers a potential weak link because his animal companion provides a very potent offensive force, but killing the druid removes the companion as well. There's a VERY strong incentive to kill the druid right off, because doing so removes not one opponent, but two.

Alex12
2007-11-13, 03:35 PM
Does XPH count as core?
And how high is the room?
Maenad Wilder FTW! at least if the room is less than 30 feet high.
Round 1: Run onto ceiling. Since ceilings are horizontal, I won't fall, per RAW. zap psion if in range with racial Sonic Ray, otherwise, aim for closest enemy.
Round 2: If Psion also took Up The Walls, he'll probably be on ceiling too. Shoot him with Wild-Surge-boosted Crystal Shard. His Will Save sucks (everyone's does) so I shred him, then laugh as everyone else kills each other while I stand above them, upside down, preferably with a bow to shoot them with.

Prometheus
2007-11-13, 03:41 PM
As long as no one character is stronger than all the rest is combined (I think we can be assured this much is true), battle royale is determined by the security dilemma - where the weakest of the combatants band together insomuch as they counter-out the strongest of the combatants. The way to win then, is to be underestimated by everyone else, or be able to survive longer than one should be. Let someone else do the dirty work of knocking people off or you will attract too much attention.

If all the characters were NPCs than one of two things would happen. a) The most Intelligent NPC (probably the wizard) would realize this and be the only to take advantages of it or b) The most Charismatic NPC and the NPC with the most ranks in Diplomacy and Bluff (probably the sorcerer or the bard) would convince the rest to ally with it. Since no one would trust a full spellcaster that it wouldn't have any tricks up its sleeves,my bet is on the Bard.

It's much more complicated if they are all power-gaming, strategical, diplomacy-immune, PCs. It really is anyone's game, but the most likely to win would be someone who can stay outside of the action (out of mobility or ranged attack), be allowed to stay outside of the action (because they are not perceived as a threat), and have tricks up their sleeves (spells, effective magic items, sneak attacks). Any claim to win has to be within the framework. My bet would be on a Monk, who can escape and possibly deflect arrows or a Rogue who could hide and sneak attack.

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 03:41 PM
What's the environment for this battle royale? Flat, featureless plain? Changes every round between the 8 SRD terrains? Fight each fight 8 times, once in each terrain?

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 03:44 PM
A correction for the several of you who have posted that the Monk can "escape" - the Monk does not get a speed bonus until 3rd level. The Barbarian is the only class at 1st level that gets a bonus to land speed.

Setra
2007-11-13, 03:45 PM
If they only fought once the Monk would possibly win.

Everyone is thinking "Oh the Barbarian is a threat..Wizard..Druid..Cleric..Rogue..Fighter..Ran ger..Bard..Paladin..Sorcerer..."

"The Monk Sucks"

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-11-13, 03:45 PM
Cleric due to having one extra spell of his domain (and quite a few chose healing, which makes your effective level for casting the CLW it gives you 2 instead of just 1.) A cleric always has one more spell per spell level than a druid thanks to domains. The cleric also gets all simple weapons for once he is out of spells and, if he has War as his other domain (How? he's a battle medic/who cares), gets one martial weapon and WF with it as a bonus feat.

I agree that the cleric is a powerful class too and has a good chance of winning.
Having a whole extra spell is a big advantage, even if it is from a fairly limited selection and domain powers/spells are one of the perks of clerics over druids even without divine matamagic.
That being said I don't believe healing equals 1d8+2 HP, what if your killed before you can heal yourself? what if you can't cast your spell(grappled, entangled, casting on the defensive)?

brian c
2007-11-13, 04:12 PM
A correction for the several of you who have posted that the Monk can "escape" - the Monk does not get a speed bonus until 3rd level. The Barbarian is the only class at 1st level that gets a bonus to land speed.

Speed isn't the important thing, really. At first level, a Monk gets +2 to all base saves, doesn't need to buy a weapon or armor with his miniscule amount of starting gold, and he gets Stunning Fist (or Imp Grapple, but Stunning Fist would be a better choice). Stunning Fist forces a fort save of 10+wis, so probably 13 or 14, just as high as any spell the casters can dish out.

The monk needs to run away. Sure the Barbarian could catch him, but why would he bother? The barb is likely to get jumped by other characters and no one sees the monk as much of a threat anyway. If someone does approach the monk, he can use his stunning fist (even use it as just a touch attack to make sure it hits) to get away. Even a raging barbarian with 18 con has a 30% chance of failing a DC13 fort save at level 1.

Indon
2007-11-13, 04:17 PM
I'd go with the Paladin or Fighter who bumps his ride check and buys a mount of some kind.

He has:

Maneuverability
Good AC
An ally who can grapple effectively, and who has high AC (AC=Ride check result).

Edit:



The monk needs to run away. Sure the Barbarian could catch him, but why would he bother? The barb is likely to get jumped by other characters and no one sees the monk as much of a threat anyway. If someone does approach the monk, he can use his stunning fist (even use it as just a touch attack to make sure it hits) to get away. Even a raging barbarian with 18 con has a 30% chance of failing a DC13 fort save at level 1.

The monk doesn't need to run from any individual melee opponent. He can simply take a Total Defense action to have a low chance of being hit, and then Flurry of Blows. He's statistically more likely to win because he gets the first full attack... and, in fact, is the only combatant who isn't TWF who could even benefit from getting one.

WhiteHarness
2007-11-13, 04:21 PM
Aristocrat. He gets more money to start out. ;)

bugsysservant
2007-11-13, 04:22 PM
Wait, core classes, or core options? If only PHB classes were allowed, but options from splatbooks are also, probably wizard. Grey Elf+Precocious Apprentice+scythe. Turns invisible. Waits for one minute while the other classes kill each other. After spell duration expires, casts color spray or some other low level power house against the last person standing. Coup de grace with a scythe at low levels spells death for any level one class, regardless of hit points or saves.

shadowdemon_lord
2007-11-13, 04:30 PM
In the round robin, my bet is on the human cleric with the healing and strength domains. He's human so you can give him a spiked chain and combat reflexes :). This build would only require a twelve wisdom (for that precious bonus first level spell). This leaves you with building a fighter basically: high strength, enough dex to take full advantage of your armor, and everything else is sunk into con. If you have can, up that wisdom to help avoid sleep spells. You'd be built so that you could probably lay low any arcanists that didn't drop sleep spells before they could drop you. Any fighters that charged you (even if they won intiative) would be subject to trip attempts, where you will probably have the advantage due to the +2 bonus from spiked chains. Being able to do this flat footed is crucial. The Barbarian would be tough to fend off, but you'd probably be on equal footing with him. After the enlarge goes off, laugh as your reach extends to twenty feet.

In the grand melee, their is no way to tell. Absolutely none. Even if the bard or rogue managed to get a bunch of people following them with good diplo checks checks, the rules state that their must be one left standing. Eventually their coalition would splinter, and then it's anyones ball game again. Also even the round robin fights could be skewed due to bad die rolls. At level 1 you simply don't have big enough modifiers to consistently do anything. My trip monkey cleric is good, but a few bad die rolls on the trip attempts and he could find himself squished by even a feinting rogue.

daggaz
2007-11-13, 04:38 PM
Any fighters that charged you (even if they won intiative) would be subject to trip attempts, where you will probably have the advantage due to the +2 bonus from spiked chains. .

Since when do spiked chains give a bonus to tripping? Last I checked, that was for disarm..

Hyozo
2007-11-13, 04:48 PM
Aristocrat. He gets more money to start out. ;)

Aristocrat enters battlefield -> Characters stop fighting and hope the rich NPC has a quest for them.

Kultrum
2007-11-13, 05:10 PM
hmmm... well a bard could do well just by turning everyone against the others and moping up in the end. An elven sorc could do well with 3 color sprays and cue and long sword to mop up. but in the end it would come down to luck.

Chronos
2007-11-13, 05:39 PM
I'm going to have to go with the barbarian with the heavy crossbow or composite longbow. If any high-speed races are available, take that, otherwise go human so you can get Far Shot or Rapid Shot at first level (alternately, Run and some other feat). He starts the combat by running away. On average, one character will be targetting each character: We'll say that the barbarian is percieved as a threat, and so he gets targetted by two (but on average, he wins initiative over one of them, so he only has to weather attacks from one on the first round). He only has to run for a single round before he's out of range of any spells that matter, and he can almost certainly shrug off two or three bow attacks with his high hit points. Once he's out of range of everyone else's attacks, he stays out of range, due to being faster than everyone else, and the only ones who can match his range are other archery-focused characters, who probably don't survive long enough to attack him (since they can't get away from the melee monsters and the killer spells). So he's free to (slowly) pick off the others from where they can't hurt him. Even if another archer does survive, he ends up trading damage with someone with more hitpoints than himself.

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 05:56 PM
I'm going to have to go with the barbarian with the heavy crossbow or composite longbow. If any high-speed races are available, take that, otherwise go human so you can get Far Shot or Rapid Shot at first level (alternately, Run and some other feat). He starts the combat by running away. On average, one character will be targetting each character: We'll say that the barbarian is percieved as a threat, and so he gets targetted by two (but on average, he wins initiative over one of them, so he only has to weather attacks from one on the first round). He only has to run for a single round before he's out of range of any spells that matter, and he can almost certainly shrug off two or three bow attacks with his high hit points. Once he's out of range of everyone else's attacks, he stays out of range, due to being faster than everyone else, and the only ones who can match his range are other archery-focused characters, who probably don't survive long enough to attack him (since they can't get away from the melee monsters and the killer spells). So he's free to (slowly) pick off the others from where they can't hurt him. Even if another archer does survive, he ends up trading damage with someone with more hitpoints than himself.

This was basically the idea for strategy that I had for my Elven Barbarian. I picked Elf because of the Sleep Immunity and +2 Dex, but I think that Chronos hit the nail on the head with the Human Barbarian, with IMO Run + Far Shot as the two feats ftw.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-13, 06:10 PM
Be a wizard.
Sell your spell book; make sure you memorized your spells first.
Buy a tower shield.
Buy a bunch of magebred hounds (Eberron).
Invest all your skill points in handle animal; take skill focus handle animal and animal affinity.


Hide behind your tower shield and release the hounds.

ocato
2007-11-13, 06:13 PM
Be a wizard.
Sell your spell book; make sure you memorized your spells first.
Buy a tower shield.
Buy a bunch of magebred hounds (Eberron).
Invest all your skill points in handle animal; take skill focus handle animal and animal affinity.


Hide behind your tower shield and release the hounds.

This was already mentioned as not being in the spirit of the competition.

Hawriel
2007-11-13, 07:49 PM
hmm this is very interesting. This is the first vs thread whare every one starts out equal. Some classes do have an obvios advantage. Fighters get an extra feat, clerics get alot of spells, Druids get a pet. hmm I really like this idea it opens alot of posabilites. My first reaction is to say the cleric has the best chance of winning a free foral thunderdome style fight. This does lead to major min/maxing. Only the bard and Wizard will need cha or int respectivly. this would give non-casters two dumb stats. Divine casters will need as usual a high wis. Most classes could get away with having two dumb stats exept casters. wow Ideas are poping my head this is fun.

some ideas a human of any melee capable class. I would like to suggest some thing odd.

Halfling fighter, or thief with a rapier and the largest shield a halfling could use or a buckler. they get +1 to all saves, hit, AC and to hit with throwing weapons and slings. hmm halfing cleric and spell: magic stone. +1 magic bonus to hit and 1d6+1 damage three stones in a sling. No size adjustment.

I am also surprised there was no mention of a fighter archer build.

I would add a condition to the fight, each 1st level character invalved should be equiped with gear using max gold for a starting character of their respective class. a druid may get a dog but my paladin bought a horse.

edit. some spelling
oh forgot to mention. the gnome bard wins because every one egnores him do to him being no threat at all. He then at full health attacks the last person standing.

deadseashoals
2007-11-13, 08:29 PM
If it's just open ground, ranger. First, he takes the run action. Then he takes the run action again. He keeps taking it until he's about 300 feet away, which is a -30 to spot checks against him. Then he walks out of line of sight, hides, and snipes everyone down.

Of course, this strategy, like pretty much every other strategy, has a very miniscule chance of winning, due to the nature of an 11-way free for all.

Chronos
2007-11-13, 09:47 PM
with IMO Run + Far Shot as the two feats ftw.Doesn't work, unfortunately, unless you're using flaws. Far Shot has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite, which doesn't really help this tactic any. A human fighter could take both, but he doesn't have the speed bonus. And anyone without a speed bonus trying this can be run down by the barbarian.

Elf, meanwhile, doesn't really buy much. With this many combatants, any arcanist attempting to cast Sleep (full round casting time) is going to be skewered before he can finish the spell.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-13, 10:09 PM
I should note that it's entirely possible for a level 1 paladin to attain Pun Pun level power through a certain loophole (actually, it's described on the Pun Pun thread, as it's one of the new-and-improved iterations of Pun Pun. The Theoretical Op minds are now working on the idea of Pre-Natal Pun-Pun, or in other words attaining infinite power before being born. And no, I'm NOT kidding.)

Of course, the loophole is actually not particularly class-specific (you can do it with a few others), but it's easy with a Paladin.

So, the best strategy for winning for a large number of classes is to go Pun Pun. Then they can't lose.

Of course, that doesn't work since it's core only.

The thing is, though, that build and situation are ultimately more important than class in these sort of setups. Even if you guys somehow decided upon a winning entry by consensus of whoever happened to be posting in this thread, it would mean next to nothing for the class! It would be just as pointless as all those hundreds of other class v. class fight threads.

JaxGaret
2007-11-13, 11:11 PM
Doesn't work, unfortunately, unless you're using flaws. Far Shot has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite, which doesn't really help this tactic any. A human fighter could take both, but he doesn't have the speed bonus. And anyone without a speed bonus trying this can be run down by the barbarian.

Gah. I forgot that Far Shot had a prereq. Okay, so I'll go with a Human Barbarian with a Heavy Crossbow, a Buckler, and the Toughness and Run feats.


Elf, meanwhile, doesn't really buy much. With this many combatants, any arcanist attempting to cast Sleep (full round casting time) is going to be skewered before he can finish the spell.

True enough. You are wise, oh Chronos.


One strategy that might work is to quaff a potion of Sanctuary at the very beginning of the fight - everyone has to make a Will save to even attack you with any non-AoE attacks they have.

Idea Man
2007-11-13, 11:17 PM
Another strategy is to be the least threatening combatant on the field. If everybody underestimates you, you can make short-term alliances, then disappear. Side against the top dog, making you more valuable alive as a hinderance to others, rather than as a waste of a round or two to kill. This a little different than hide until everyone else is dead, and certainly more dangerous, but the goal is to make the other guy look like the threat.

Using this tactic, every class is potentialy a winner, except the paladin. Darn code of ethics. :smalltongue: Rogue or monk has the best manuverability for pulling off this kind of stunt, and they could get glossed over if they don't perform well initially.

Suzuro
2007-11-13, 11:23 PM
I'm going to have to agree that it's based almost entirely on luck and the reactions of the people, so it's impossible to actually determine who will be the winner with any amount of certainty.

-Suzuro

Setra
2007-11-14, 12:26 AM
This should be changed.

Instead each class gets to fight eachother class once, but maybe they would have to have the same build for each fight.

And whoever wins the most wins.

shadowdemon_lord
2007-11-14, 01:40 AM
Spiked chain has no bonus for trips eh? Well, Disarming your opponent might actually be a better way to go with my cleric build. On that note, anyone weilding a polearm, lance, longspear, or spiked chain would cause problems for my priest on round one. Also, tumblers could prove problematical (although tumblers tend to be not very proficient tumblers at level one, or else they have seriously lessened their ability to do other things). Barbarian archers could also be tough, although if the cleric pulled off a command: halt the fight would be over. Still, if my Cleric lived against any melee combatant into round two, his disarm check of 10+strength and 20' reach and would probably rule the day against any melee combatants. His trip attempts would be at 4+strength (already increased by enlarge person). If he could catch you, he could kill you.

JaxGaret
2007-11-14, 01:43 AM
This should be changed.

Instead each class gets to fight eachother class once, but maybe they would have to have the same build for each fight.

And whoever wins the most wins.

That would be the good old Round Robin. It works too, but the builds are different for a Round Robin and a Battle Royale - they're two different animals.

Chronos
2007-11-14, 02:29 AM
Barbarian archers could also be tough, although if the cleric pulled off a command: halt the fight would be over.Not particularly. If you win initiative and start off within 25 feet, and the Command works, you could then close to melee range using your move. The barbarian does nothing on his turn, as you commanded (though "freeze" probably works better than "halt"), then you get one attack in. The barbarian then takes his turn, and withdraws, and you get an attack of opportunity. Even if both attacks hit, the barbarian is probably still standing (remember, you haven't cast Enlarge Person yet), and you'll never catch up to him again. If, on the other hand, the barbarian wins initiative, he's out of range of your spell before you can cast it.

Also remember that Combat Reflexes is dex-dependent (it gives you extra AoOs based on your Dex mod), and that Enlarge Person includes a dex penalty. To get any benefit out of your feat at all, you'll need to start with at least a 14, and probably a 16.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-14, 02:51 AM
((Removed))

Grynning
2007-11-14, 03:44 AM
I think for this to really work, we need a more defined set of rules, since there are too many variables based on race, gear selection, etc. I propose we pick out 8 actual characters before continuing the debate, then go on to look at tactics. Maybe we should start statting out the various ideas people have had until we have 11 semi-optimal characters (one of each class) then start theoretically pitting them against each other.
So far we have the Crossbowbarian, the Druid with the Dog, the Spiked Chain/Enlarge Person Cleric...what else?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-11-14, 07:15 AM
Be a wizard.
Sell your spell book; make sure you memorized your spells first.
Buy a tower shield.
Buy a bunch of magebred hounds (Eberron).
Invest all your skill points in handle animal; take skill focus handle animal and animal affinity.


Hide behind your tower shield and release the hounds.

Why would you do this when you can just hire ~3,000 1st-level warriors (3 sp/day each)?

When you're done with the battle royale you can raid small cities for loot.

Kultrum
2007-11-14, 04:27 PM
I think for this to really work, we need a more defined set of rules, since there are too many variables based on race, gear selection, etc. I propose we pick out 8 actual characters before continuing the debate, then go on to look at tactics. Maybe we should start statting out the various ideas people have had until we have 11 semi-optimal characters (one of each class) then start theoretically pitting them against each other.
So far we have the Crossbowbarian, the Druid with the Dog, the Spiked Chain/Enlarge Person Cleric...what else?

Throw in a half elf bard spec'ed for bluff, diplomacy and intimidate.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-14, 04:31 PM
Why would you do this when you can just hire ~3,000 1st-level warriors (3 sp/day each)?

When you're done with the battle royale you can raid small cities for loot.

God the D&D economy sucks.