[3.5] Help With Custom Legacy Weapon

[Thurbane]

So, looking for a little general guidance.

I want to make a custom legacy weapon (a spiked chain) intended for a large wielder (with reach).

I'd like to focus primarily on rider effects on a hit, and secondarily on AoO. Also, anything that would add utility for a mundane melee type would also be good.

I've never looked much into making a custom legacy weapon before. I've glanced at a handbook, and some old threads, but I'd appreciate any general advice.

I know legacy items are usually a trap, but by my understanding, with a custom item, you can optimize the benefits and try to ameliorate the penalties.

Not sure if relevant, but usual restrictions for my table apply: no PF, no Kalamar, no Ravenloft, no other 3rd party; no home brew; Dragon and Dungeon only material frowned on, apart from the Compendium; no artificers, psionics or incarnum.

Cheers - T

Sorry if I didn't make this clear, but mainly looking on advice for what abilities to grab. Also, not looking for character builds, just advice on the weapon itself.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The easiest way to bypass the penalties is a bit cheesy. If the founder of the legacy wasn't your character, the penalties will be based on their build instead of yours. For instance, if they were a Cleric-gish and you're a martial, the penalties will be mostly lost spell slots that won't bother you at all. This does mean that you have to track down and perform all of the original wielder's rites instead of just choosing some of your own accomplishments to count as rites, though, and for fairness' sake some of the abilities should be more appropriate for the original build than yours (though you can swap these out with Legacy Champion if you want). But if they'd only founded a minor legacy (levels 5-10) those downsides disappear at level 11, and the penalty progression remains the same.

For a more minor tip, some abilities have 3 tiers (e.g. +2 to Cha, +4 to Cha, and +6 to Cha) that can be chosen at the 3 tiers of the legacy. There's no requirement to take the smaller bonuses before you take the bigger ones, though, so if you're willing to wait (or can retrain with Legacy Champion) you can just take the better benefits and spend your lower level abilities on something else.

[sreservoir]

[QUOTE=PoeticallyPsyco;25099059]The easiest way to bypass the penalties is a bit cheesy. If the founder of the legacy wasn't your character, the penalties will be based on their build instead of yours. For instance, if they were a Cleric-gish and you're a martial, the penalties will be mostly lost spell slots that won't bother you at all./QUOTE]

If you can't pay the penalties, you stop progressing at that point, so that doesn't quite work.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The easiest way to bypass the penalties is a bit cheesy. If the founder of the legacy wasn't your character, the penalties will be based on their build instead of yours. For instance, if they were a Cleric-gish and you're a martial, the penalties will be mostly lost spell slots that won't bother you at all./QUOTE]

If you can't pay the penalties, you stop progressing at that point, so that doesn't quite work.

Right, I was afraid I was misremembering that. It does still work, but not for every build; for the spiked chain example, you'd need something like "original was a partial caster, I'm a full caster" or "original was a skill monkey (like Rogue or Swordsage for skill monkeys that might use a spiked chain), I don't care about skill penalties".

On that note, none of the progressions penalize initiators (unless they added a progression for that in ToB), so that's definitely an option.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho the biggest trap is the amount of feats that you need to invest into them. That is why I always suggest a cohort via Leadership as the superior choice.

Monk (or SS) / Kensai
+1 Morphing is cheap and allows the cohort to morph into any light weapon
Besides from the light weapon limitation, this option is the best since it gains additional effects while your level increases (since the cohorts lvl is tied to yours). Note that a single lvl of Kensai also unlocks other crafters to further enhance his unarmed strike (since it now is already a magical weapon).

Urban Druid 12
Comes late online but can shape into any object (including weapons). Later (UD lvl 16) it even can shape into animated objects. Downside is that the weapon needs to be enchanted separately. While it comes online late, it offers the best utility due to the urban druid spells.

Warshaper Tattooed Monk
The Chameleon tattoo lets him use Alter Self with a duration of h/classlevel to turn into an Animated Object (which can still be like a regular weapon and be used as such). Again needs a separate crafter for enhancements. There are some other nice tattoos that could be fitting here.


Further, the first two options can also dip a level into Warshaper (Changeling as Race) to have some extra fun with Morphic Weapons (= any Natural Weapon you want). Now you weapon can attack with you together. Give your spiked chain some tentacles ^^
Finally, let your weapon use yourself as mount for extra cheese (ride-by-attack for your cohort as feat; let him roll ride to prevent a single attack per turn...).

Yeah, leadership is OP I know. But do you really intent to waste multiple feats on a legacy weapon on your build? Unless you are the player or the player is explicitly asking for it, it is to much of a burden. Instead, asking your player(s) to take Leadership as requirement for the plot is much less of a hassle.

[Morof Stonehands]

Imho the biggest trap is the amount of feats that you need to invest into them. That is why I always suggest a cohort via Leadership as the superior choice.

…

Yeah, leadership is OP I know. But do you really intent to waste multiple feats on a legacy weapon on your build? Unless you are the player or the player is explicitly asking for it, it is to much of a burden. Instead, asking your player(s) to take Leadership as requirement for the plot is much less of a hassle.

Getting Legacy feats come as bonus feats after completing rituals associated with the item. You don’t actually spend level up feats for them. There are others that improve your ability to use legacy items that you have to choose but no so for basic ones. Weapons of legacy pg. 9

[Aharon]

It depends a bit on what your DM thinks about legacy weapons.
The rules text clearly states


Ritual costs are fairly standard, but there is no simple method for assigning personal costs. You can’t just choose a personal cost from a menu—it must have a consequence to both the founder and any subsequent wielder. Work together with your DM to design costs that are meaningful but not crippling.

That the examples actually are crippling in many cases is because the game designers didn't understand their game well enough. So I think it's totally reasonable to devise cost progressions that don't touch attacks for fighters, or don't touch spell slots for casters, because the effects of the presented weapons don't compare to the costs (if you design a weapon with far greater powers, the example tables might be appropriate).

[Thurbane]

OK, just to be clear: not looking for character builds.

Happy to hear about reducing costs, but that's not my main focus.

Mainly looking for suggestions on what abilities to grab.

Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Thurbane]

OK, one last bump, then I give up on this thread: any suggestions for which abilities to select for a custom legacy item, a large spiked chain designed for a large wielder.

The wielder would be focused on reach and AoO.

So, abilities that would be helpful:

- AoO/reach based stuff.
- Rider effects on a hit (preferably debuffs / save-or-suck type stuff).
- Things that add utility and versatility to a mundane wielder.

Even links to existing guides would be handy, in case I missed any.

Not really looking for how to minimize the drawbacks, and definitely not looking for character build suggestions.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Okay, let's take a look, and I'll list what I think are the best in each bracket.

Menu A (level 5+, single slot):
Resistance (+1 to all saves all day long), Enlarge Person (1/day), Metamagic/Metapsionic if you can cast spells/powers, and maybe Deflection (+1 deflection bonus to AC) are probably the most obvious combat choices in this bracket. For utility, there are actually also quite a few decent choices for the slot cost, with Comprehend Languages, Detect Thoughts (1/day), maybe Knock (1/day), Magical Cipher (main benefit is detect magic at will), Speed Enhancement (+5ft to one movement mode), Unceasing Servant, and Telekinetic (at-will mage hand, mending, and open/close). Mount and Minor Intelligent Legacy are extremely flavorful, but not strong.

Menu B (level 5+, 2 slots):
The best combat options here are Weapon Enhancement for a +1 ability of your choice and Web (3/day). Utility-wise, Lesser Restoration is probably the best, but you might get some use out of Whispering Wind (3/day), Locate Object (3/day), and/or Speed Enhancement (10ft to one movement mode). Intelligent Legacy is again a cool option.

Menu C (level 5+, 3 slots):
Not seeing any good combat options (unless you really want to empower spells/powers), but some decent utility. Spider Climb, Levitate, and Water Breathing are all 24/7 as long as you hold the spiked chain, and Clairaudiance/Clairvoyance is cool even at 2/day.

Menu D (level 11+, 1 slot):
On to the Lesser item abilities. For combat, Slippery Barrier is better grease as a swift action at-will, Weapon Enhancement now costs just a single slot (up to +3 effective enhancement bonus), likewise Web (5/day), Glitterdust (at will), Cunning makes you immune to being flat-footed, more metamagic/-psionic, and Shocking Legacy is +5d6 damage to 5 attacks a day. For utility, you've got Detect Secret Doors (at will), Knock (at-will), and Major Intelligent Legacy gives you an ally with 120ft darkvision and blindsense.

Menu E (level 11+, 2 slots):
Animate Dead (10HD, 1/day), Weapon Enhancement (if your effective enhancement bonus isn't already above 1, so use this one first if possible), and I don't know how well Magic Invulnerability holds up at these levels (immune to spells level 1-3, 1/day) but it's cool. For utility, Break Enchantment (1/day), Invisibility (at will), See Invisibility (at will).

Menu F (level 11+, 3 slots):
Blur (24/7), Evasion, Poison Immunity, Weapon Enhancement (if your effective enhancement bonus is 3 or less), and Contingency (1/day) are all potentially worth 3 slots. Maybe also Wish, for a single use of wish.

Menu G (level 17+, 1 slot):
At last, the greater slots. Ability Enhancement (+6), Weapon Enhancement, and Wall of Stone or Wall of Force (2/day) for combat. For utility, Plane Shift (1/day), Teleport (2/day), and Greater Invisibility (2/day).

Menu H (level 17+, 2 slots):
Two Wishes, Weapon Enhancement, Swift Heal Self (1/day), Mind Blank (24/7), and Maximize Spell/Power (3/day).

Menu I (level 17+, 3 slots):
Weapon Enhancement, Time Stop (1/day), and maybe Three Wishes.


EDIT: Oh, and after doing all that, I remembered this handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=485.0) I used when I built my own Legacy Weapon.

[Thurbane]

Prefect! Thank you PoeticallyPsyco. :smallsmile:

[Ramza00]

Just a bit of additional ideas. Mind’s Eye had two psionic weapons of legacy

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20050930a

Almost all of those abilities are in that Min Max thread above, but one is missing is that you can grant yourself the skill / save / initiative ability a Psicrystal will normally grant, like +2 to a save, or +3 to skill as a Menu A ability.

Likewise you gain no other Psicrystal affinity abilities like share powers and so on. Note some of these other abilities can be granted by the various intelligent item legacies from Menu A, B, and D.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Prefect! Thank you PoeticallyPsyco. :smallsmile:

Happy to help! Let us know how it works out.