Paladin Help Needed

[ChaseC311]

I'm going to be playing a Winged Tiefling Paladin in an ongoing campaign where invading extraplanar beings (particularly fiends) will be present. Originally I was planning on playing a Conquest Paladin, however lately I realized many fiends in the mid-late game are resistant/immune to fright, which is one of the core features of the subclass. So instead, seeing how now would be the best time to play one, I went with a watchers Paladin instead. Unfortunately, due to the switch, I no longer have access to Spiritual Weapon, which was something I was hyped about using both for damage and for flavor.

Basically I was wondering if the subclass switch was a good choice, and whether or not there were any other spells I could use that could help stack on the damage I'm missing out on by not getting spiritual weapon. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated

[Corvino]

If you're optimizing for damage, consider Oath of Vengeance. You get Haste as a bonus spell, which tends to mix in nicely if you're taking a damage-focused GWM build.

[LudicSavant]

Basically I was wondering if the subclass switch was a good choice Yes, Watchers is very strong when used properly.


and whether or not there were any other spells I could use that could help stack on the damage I'm missing out on by not getting spiritual weapon.

Spiritual Weapon basically fills the "have an offensive bonus action" niche.

As such you basically want to pick up an offensive bonus action, like Revenant Blade or Polearm Master or Hex (from Fey-Touched).

Also, when considering the damage output of a Watchers Paladin, keep in mind that your aura is actually providing a substantial offensive benefit in practice. Basically, you can think of initiative bonuses as a % chance to grant extra actions (since the difference between winning and losing initiative is basically an extra turn relative to Team Monster). And when you're applying a fat init bonus to the entire party, well, there's a good chance that someone is getting an extra turn. More actions means more damage (just like with, say, Action Surge).

Another thing to consider regarding Spiritual Weapon is that not casting it is freeing up more spell slots for critfish smiting, or any other damage-boosting spell.


Any and all help would be greatly appreciated

Here's a strong build you can use with Watchers: Swift Death to Evil (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24941211&postcount=938). I actually just used this in a one-shot last week and it basically just bulldozed an adventure that the DM was expecting to kill half the party (including basically buzzsawing its way through an encounter with an Elder Brain, Mind Flayer, 2 ogre thralls, air elemental, and hill giant thrall at the same time. At level 9).

If you wanna stomp fiends at high levels, Devotion Paladin is another option that excels at it, granting perma-Disadvantage to their attacks with its level 15 feature, and being immune to fear, charms, and possessions.

[Chugger]

Sorcadin is another option. If you go Divine Soul, you can get Spir weap - but it takes a while to come on line (because w/ most sorcadin builds you go to at least Pal 6 first).

[RogueJK]

Sorcadin is another option. If you go Divine Soul, you can get Spir weap - but it takes a while to come on line (because w/ most sorcadin builds you go to at least Pal 6 first).

If you really want Spiritual Weapon, going Paladin 2 -> Divine Soul Sorcerer 3 (or 4 if you need the ASI sooner than later) -> Paladin 6 is an option. Access to Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade and Spiritual Weapon helps cover the damage gap from the delay to gaining Extra Attack at Paladin 5. And even once you gain Extra Attack, you can still make occasional use of BB/GFB through the Quickened Spell Metamagic and/or the Warcaster feat for BB/GFB OAs.

But I'll agree with LudicSavant, in that a straight Paladin with Polearm Master is a better option for weaponizing your Bonus Action than multiclassing for 3+ levels just to chase Spiritual Weapon. It doesn't slow down your Paladin progression, it doesn't cost spell slots, and it gives you additional opportunities to hit and potentially apply your Divine Smite each turn. (You can't smite with Spiritual Weapon, and while BB/GFB helps scale your damage while you're waiting on the delayed Extra Attack, you still only have one attack roll, so it's all or nothing each turn.)

[jaappleton]

Going Paladin 2 -> Divine Soul Sorcerer 3 (or 4 if you need the ASI sooner than later) -> Paladin 6 is an option. Access to Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade and Spiritual Weapon helps cover the damage gap from the delay to gaining Extra Attack at Paladin 5.


But I'll agree with LudicSavant, in that a straight Paladin with Polearm Master is a better option for weaponizing your Bonus Action than multiclassing for 3+ levels just to chase Spiritual Weapon. It doesn't slow down your Paladin progression, and gives you additional opportunities to hit and potentially apply your Divine Smite each turn. (You can't smite with Spiritual Weapon. And while BB/GFB helps scale your damage, you still only have one attack roll, so it's all or nothing each turn.)

I'll also agree with Ludic here.

Full disclosure: Ludic's so insightful and knowledgeable its fairly hard to disagree with Ludic. :smalltongue:

[Keravath]

PAM paladin is a good choice for a regular use of the bonus action.

You can go one handed with a staff or spear with the dueling fighting style for a higher AC with a shield or go with two handed and reach like a glaive with a lower AC (partially compensated if you pick up the defensive fighting style). When you hit level 11, Improved Divine Smite will add a d8 of damage to every attack you make - but it would not stack with spiritual weapon.

As for fighting fiends at higher levels, you might want to look at the devotion paladin - fighting evil is part of their story and their aura works very well defensively against a number of them.

[ChaseC311]

That is a very good option to go with PAM, however my characters mainly a Dex Paladin with a Rapier and Shield. I was also thinking about spirit shroud to help tack on damage since the paladin I'm playing has a good charisma (18) as well as a good constitution to help with concentration checks.

Another factor I realized I forgot to mention was that I'm at level 7, meaning I still need to pick a feat/ASI. My apologies for not disclosing this in the original post, it was 2 AM and I was sleepy

[Gignere]

That is a very good option to go with PAM, however my characters mainly a Dex Paladin with a Rapier and Shield. I was also thinking about spirit shroud to help tack on damage since the paladin I'm playing has a good charisma (18) as well as a good constitution to help with concentration checks.

Another factor I realized I forgot to mention was that I'm at level 7, meaning I still need to pick a feat/ASI. My apologies for not disclosing this in the original post, it was 2 AM and I was sleepy

Go with Revenant Blade feat and use the double scimitar as outlined in Ludic’s build. Unless your DM is a stickler about racial requirements for the feat.

[RogueJK]

Even on a Dexadin, I still wouldn't chase Spiritual Weapon through a Sorcerer dip. Revenant Blade is built for DEX-based quasi-PAM builds, if that feat is an option in your campaign.

Otherwise, Spirit Shroud is a potential option for added damage on your Dexadin, but won't be usable for several more levels until your 3rd level spells come online. In the meantime, Divine Favor can serve a similar purpose when some added damage is needed.

Or, you can spend your Level 4 feat on Fey Touched to pick up Misty Step and Hex, with Hex adding a little more damage per hit than Divine Favor. And that would leave your eventual 3rd level slots open for other spells and higher level Smiting, rather than using them for Spirit Shroud castings.

If you decide not to go with Fey Touched, another good feat option for this character would be Inspiring Leader. With a high CHA, that's a decent amount of Temp HP for everyone in the party each rest.

Or just spend the Level 4 ASI on +2 DEX.

[jaappleton]

Even on a Dexadin, I still wouldn't chase Spiritual Weapon through a Sorcerer dip. Revenant Blade is built for DEX-based quasi-PAM builds, if that feat is an option in your campaign.

Otherwise, Spirit Shroud is a potential option for added damage on your Dexadin, but won't be usable for several more levels until your 3rd level spells come online. In the meantime, Divine Favor can serve a similar purpose when some added damage is needed.

Or, you can spend your Level 4 feat on Fey Touched to pick up Misty Step and Hex, with Hex adding the same amount of extra damage (1d8 per hit) with a 1st level slot (or the included free daily casting) as Spirit Shroud does with a 3rd level slot. That would leave your eventual 3rd level slots open for other spells and higher level Smiting.

If you decide not to go with Fey Touched for Hex, another good feat option for this character would be Inspiring Leader. With a high CHA, that's a decent amount of Temp HP for everyone in the party each rest.

Or just spend the Level 4 ASI on +2 DEX.

You're spot on about Divine Favor being a nice pickup in the interim until Spirit Shroud is available.

However.

I'd argue Divine Favor not being worth concentrating on. Assuming nobody else is handling it, Bless would be a far better spell to Concentrate on. The bonus to attack rolls and saves outweighs the 1d4 damage bonus of DF, for sure.

However, Hex only adds 1d6 damage. Not 1d8.

[RogueJK]

Good catch on Hex. And I agree on Bless.

Bless has been my various Paladins' go-to Concentration spell over several campaigns, even at higher levels.

[stoutstien]

You're spot on about Divine Favor being a nice pickup in the interim until Spirit Shroud is available.

However.

I'd argue Divine Favor not being worth concentrating on. Assuming nobody else is handling it, Bless would be a far better spell to Concentrate on. The bonus to attack rolls and saves outweighs the 1d4 damage bonus of DF, for sure.

However, Hex only adds 1d6 damage. Not 1d8.

Casting action cost is the big factor. DF can be utilized right away with an attack where bless works best if you are facing higher AC so they both are good spells but fill different roles.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd argue Divine Favor not being worth concentrating on. Unless you are fighting against zombies at low level. Doing radiant damage precludes their "get up with 1 HP" zombie fortitude thing once you drop them. :smallwink:

Undead Fortitude. If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 + the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant {italics mine} or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead.

[jaappleton]

Casting action cost is the big factor. DF can be utilized right away with an attack where bless works best if you are facing higher AC so they both are good spells but fill different roles.

You're not wrong regarding the action economy, its absolutely worth considering.

But even still, I think its worth it. Bless helps everyone it targets, and if you target yourself, it helps you maintain the saving throw on Bless itself.

Even if the saving throw bonus just helps one save during the battle, it could be encounter-altering. Nobody wants the Barbarian to be Charmed or Dominated, or for Haste to be broken. Likewise, anyone with GWM or SS will love Bless on them for the attack roll bonus.

Need to weigh the costs of the character action VS everything it impacts, and can impact as long as Concentration is maintained.

[RogueJK]

Unless you are fighting against zombies at low level. Doing radiant damage precludes their "get up with 1 HP" zombie fortitude thing once you drop them. :smallwink:

It's also handy for shutting down Vampire regeneration.

[stoutstien]

You're not wrong regarding the action economy, its absolutely worth considering.

But even still, I think its worth it. Bless helps everyone it targets, and if you target yourself, it helps you maintain the saving throw on Bless itself.

Even if the saving throw bonus just helps one save during the battle, it could be encounter-altering. Nobody wants the Barbarian to be Charmed or Dominated, or for Haste to be broken. Likewise, anyone with GWM or SS will love Bless on them for the attack roll bonus.

Need to weigh the costs of the character action VS everything it impacts, and can impact as long as Concentration is maintained.

I don't think anybody could successfully argue against the absolute powerhouse that is blessed at any point during the game. That's one of the best parts of paladins being prepared casters they never have to decide between the two until the occasion calls for it. The way I usually look at it is if Divine favor could potentially remove an action from team monster it's worth considering. It could come down to what you're facing against or the turn order or even occasional happenstance when you don't have a way of overcoming a Target resistance to your weapon so you just need to do some damage to draw attention away from your party members while they get ready to execute their contingency plan.
Bless is one of those spells that tends to be available through multiple party members because it's that good. Most groups that I see tend to take turns casting it.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's also handy for shutting down Vampire regeneration. Yes. (Though with vampires, one tends to nova smites as fast as possible, however, if one is low on spell slots when the vamp shows up, Divine Favor sure is a cheap way to cut down on regen)

[Deen]

Paladins are so good it's hard to recommend you something without being given more details but my thoughts:

1. Vengeance Paladin is always great. It's best Paladin boss killer (and one of the best boss killers in entire 5e), has imo the best spell lists of all Oaths and it's great from low to high levels. I highly recommend trying out Mark of Shadow DEX Vengeance Paladin with double bladed Scimitar, Elven Accuracy and Blind Fighting Style so you can make your own Darkness + Blindsight combo (and later Greater Invisibility) and for bosses that are immune to it - you have VOE. VOE Bonus Action + Action: Haste is absolutely great buff combo for big boss fights. Level 15 Vengeance Paladin get dish out whooping 5 attacks per turn on VoE boss with Elven Accuracy and absolutely melt most of them in no-time. Your typical "bankai" character ;).

2. Oath of Watchers (same Mark of Shadow combo) is also great but more team support with Initiative Bonus. It's not as strong as Vengeance when it comes to deleting bosses due to not having VoE, Hunter's Mark and Haste on demand but it's more all-around and Counterspell + Initiative bonus are great so he has more utility power than Vengeance.

Both are great with Elven Accuracy on top to deliver pain and build for DEX.

3. In my opinion very underrated Oath is Crown. The combination of AOE taunt from Champion Challenge + Spirit Guardians + being able to tank hits on reaction for your party members is great "tank". You need to build him for high HP+AC but he really does the job of a tank. Give him friendly Twilight Cleric and he can tank whole day. I would go 1 Level of Hexblade as dip to get Absorb Elements + Shield + Armor of Agathys and focus on CHA since he will be classic Sword n Board Paladin tank. Warcaster + Booming Blade will serve his well, since Chamption Challenge don't allow enemies to run away from than 30 feet from you and SGs make terrain difficult.

4. Ancients is always solid due to Spell Damage resistance aura + Moonbeam and Misty Step, but I find it quite boring to play as his best feature is passive. But you can't deny the power of it.

[RogueJK]

I would go 1 Level of Hexblade as dip to get Absorb Elements + Shield + Armor of Agathys

Warlocks don't get Absorb Elements (it's not even a subclass or TCoE expanded spell list option), and 1 level of Warlock only gets you two 1st level spells known anyway.

[Deen]

Warlocks don't get Absorb Elements (it's not even a subclass or TCoE expanded spell list option), and 1 level of Warlock only gets you two 1st level spells known anyway.

True, but Shield and Armor of Agathys + SAD CHA + Curse is still enough for investment.

[Angelalex242]

I'm a fan of Ancients Paladins, but I build for defense, primarily.

[Chronos]

Lots of mention of Hex, and of Vengeance paladin, but nobody mentioned that Vengeance paladins get Hunter's Mark (which is almost equivalent to Hex)?

Oh, and don't forget that you also (on any paladin) have your smiting spells (Thunderous Smite, Branding Smite, etc.). They don't do as much damage per slot as your Divine Smite feature, but you can use them in addition to Divine Smite, for when you really want to nova, you can (probably) share them with your steed when mounted, and they have their rider effects as well, some of which are quite good.