How Could/Would/Should you defeat Strahd?

[Rhocian Xothara]

So I ran a poll a little while back about "table-breaking campaigns" - campaigns that you just never can seem to finish, either due to TPKs or drama or whatever else. Curse of Strahd came top of that list, and it's easy to see why. Between the modular railroad, the "one step forward, two steps back" approach to creating a nightmareish Dread Realm, the fact that there's no 'race to stop the Bad Guy' - he has already won; Ravenloft & Barovia are his to do as he sees fit means that not only are the odds stacked massively against the players, but every positive step forward seems to tighten that noose around their own necks just that little bit more, as Strahd stops seeing the players as charming individuals who he is honour-bound to welcome to his land, and starts seeing them as pests to be exterminated.

I don't want answers to the title question along the line of "Get the Sun Blade from Berez, yada yada yada, kick his ass" kind of thing. The reality is we as players will be lucky to get that far.

The reason I ask is this: In a vacuum, as a statblock, Strahd is eminently beatable. I've solo'd a Dragon Turtle stronger than Strahd with a 10th-level Sorcadin before. The problem is the context, circumstance and resources with which Strahd enters the game.

For starters, he isn't just a powerful vampire. He's a Count and a General. So on top of the various 'creatures of the night' at his disposal such as wolves, bats or indeed other vampires, he can raise a literal army to assist him. The latter both is and isn't in the module book. The lore for that is there, but the book doesn't expect Dungeon Masters to employ such tactics (at least, not against the party). My question is: Why would you not? If Strahd felt threatened, he absolutely would use his resources to crush said threat. It's what he does. It's what he has done for centuries. And (seasoned) players know that, so even if the DM doesn't use everything at their disposal and the party does defeat Strahd, it'll be only because the DM allowed them to.

Secondly: Ravenloft is either a literal Plane of Dread (if you go by the AD&D versions) or a twisted version of the Shadowfell (if you go by the 5e supplements). Either way; Strahd has control over pretty much everything. Even the weather itself. It's kinda like lucid-dreaming, in which you're able to control every aspect of your dream. Except this is a nightmare and Strahd is the Lucid Dreamer.

So for me, Curse of Strahd has this big problem: Even if you get the Sun Blade; somehow stop Strahd from getting Ireena (I've been in one game where that's happened. Genius plan; DM was very impressed. Strahd never saw her again) and basically get everything else to line up right, you've still got the environment; the mist; the creatures of the night; Strahd's army; Strahd's Castle of Bull**** and of course - Strahd himself.

I have never 'beaten' Curse of Strahd and I'm convinced it is unbeatable from a player's perspective.

Oh, and why do I ask this? Because a DM who knows my thoughts about Curse of Strahd has invited me to a CoS campaign. He loves CoS (I think it's overrated bull**** and a relic of AD&D, but that's me) and wants to prove to me it can be enjoyable. I remain unconvinced, but I'm giving him the chance because he's an older gentleman; an 'old-school' player and an amazing DM. He runs games with a completeness to his style that speaks of someone who has been running tabletop for a very long time. He is easily the best DM I've ever played with, and that's coming from someone who runs D&D professionally.

[Avonar]

I mean how beatable Strahd is entirely depends on the DM, right? Sure, Strahd could be near omnipotent, controlling and knowing everything in his realm and yes, that seems pretty unbeatable. But I'd assume that when I'm playing a campaign, the DM is going to incoporate a way to come out of it successful. Anything can be unbeatable if the DM deems it so, I don't see Curse of Strahd being different.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean how beatable Strahd is entirely depends on the DM, right? Sure, Strahd could be near omnipotent, controlling and knowing everything in his realm and yes, that seems pretty unbeatable. But I'd assume that when I'm playing a campaign, the DM is going to incoporate a way to come out of it successful. Anything can be unbeatable if the DM deems it so, I don't see Curse of Strahd being different. But what does it mean to 'beat Strahd' anyway?
1. Get out of Barovia?
2. Outsmart him?
3. Something else?

[Avonar]

But what does it mean to 'beat Strahd' anyway?
1. Get out of Barovia?
2. Outsmart him?
3. Something else?

Almost like it's an incredibly subjective question with no fixed answer?

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, and why do I ask this? Because a DM who knows my thoughts about Curse of Strahd has invited me to a CoS campaign. He loves CoS (I think it's overrated bull**** and a relic of AD&D, but that's me) and wants to prove to me it can be enjoyable. I remain unconvinced, but I'm giving him the chance because he's an older gentleman; an 'old-school' player and an amazing DM. He runs games with a completeness to his style that speaks of someone who has been running tabletop for a very long time. He is easily the best DM I've ever played with, and that's coming from someone who runs D&D professionally. Gee, that sounds familiar. I was also recently invited by an outstanding, old school DM to a CoS campaign (Yeah, Ravenloft is a unique take on D&D) and I wonder if you and I were doing chargen together last night on Discord.
By the way, this is a brilliant description

Secondly: Ravenloft is either a literal Plane of Dread (if you go by the AD&D versions) or a twisted version of the Shadowfell (if you go by the 5e supplements). Either way; Strahd has control over pretty much everything. Even the weather itself. It's kinda like lucid-dreaming, in which you're able to control every aspect of your dream. Except this is a nightmare and Strahd is the Lucid Dreamer. *applause*

[Unoriginal]

So I ran a poll a little while back about "table-breaking campaigns" - campaigns that you just never can seem to finish, either due to TPKs or drama or whatever else. Curse of Strahd came top of that list, and it's easy to see why. Between the modular railroad, the "one step forward, two steps back" approach to creating a nightmareish Dread Realm, the fact that there's no 'race to stop the Bad Guy' - he has already won; Ravenloft & Barovia are his to do as he sees fit means that not only are the odds stacked massively against the players, but every positive step forward seems to tighten that noose around their own necks just that little bit more, as Strahd stops seeing the players as charming individuals who he is honour-bound to welcome to his land, and starts seeing them as pests to be exterminated.

I don't want answers to the title question along the line of "Get the Sun Blade from Berez, yada yada yada, kick his ass" kind of thing. The reality is we as players will be lucky to get that far.

The reason I ask is this: In a vacuum, as a statblock, Strahd is eminently beatable. I've solo'd a Dragon Turtle stronger than Strahd with a 10th-level Sorcadin before. The problem is the context, circumstance and resources with which Strahd enters the game.

For starters, he isn't just a powerful vampire. He's a Count and a General. So on top of the various 'creatures of the night' at his disposal such as wolves, bats or indeed other vampires, he can raise a literal army to assist him. The latter both is and isn't in the module book. The lore for that is there, but the book doesn't expect Dungeon Masters to employ such tactics (at least, not against the party). My question is: Why would you not? If Strahd felt threatened, he absolutely would use his resources to crush said threat. It's what he does. It's what he has done for centuries. And (seasoned) players know that, so even if the DM doesn't use everything at their disposal and the party does defeat Strahd, it'll be only because the DM allowed them to.

Secondly: Ravenloft is either a literal Plane of Dread (if you go by the AD&D versions) or a twisted version of the Shadowfell (if you go by the 5e supplements). Either way; Strahd has control over pretty much everything. Even the weather itself. It's kinda like lucid-dreaming, in which you're able to control every aspect of your dream. Except this is a nightmare and Strahd is the Lucid Dreamer.

So for me, Curse of Strahd has this big problem: Even if you get the Sun Blade; somehow stop Strahd from getting Ireena (I've been in one game where that's happened. Genius plan; DM was very impressed. Strahd never saw her again) and basically get everything else to line up right, you've still got the environment; the mist; the creatures of the night; Strahd's army; Strahd's Castle of Bull**** and of course - Strahd himself.

I have never 'beaten' Curse of Strahd and I'm convinced it is unbeatable from a player's perspective.

Oh, and why do I ask this? Because a DM who knows my thoughts about Curse of Strahd has invited me to a CoS campaign. He loves CoS (I think it's overrated bull**** and a relic of AD&D, but that's me) and wants to prove to me it can be enjoyable. I remain unconvinced, but I'm giving him the chance because he's an older gentleman; an 'old-school' player and an amazing DM. He runs games with a completeness to his style that speaks of someone who has been running tabletop for a very long time. He is easily the best DM I've ever played with, and that's coming from someone who runs D&D professionally.

The thing that is important, fundamental about Strahd is that he is and always will be a loser.

Strahd does not control Barovia. He is its prisoner, and always will be. The whole place exists only to make Strahd suffer in a deeply complex way.

Strahd is a loser. He can't actually win, he can't accomplish what he wants. He's extremely self-destructive and always come back from said destruction without having learned anything. And he's *extremely* arrogant, and *extremely* petty.

All he can do is make others suffer. And as Curse of Strahd happens, even that bores him.

So a bunch of PCs arrives. And Strahd plays with them. Because he is bored, because he's compelled by vampirism, because his ego doesn't let him register the PCs as anything but pests, because he wouldn't be stuck in his Domain of Dread if he could change.

Strahd could get an army between him and the PCs, but PCs are great at avoiding those.

Strahd is a loser. A cruel, sadistic loser. A dangerous loser. But a loser none the less.



Either way; Strahd has control over pretty much everything. Even the weather itself. It's kinda like lucid-dreaming, in whic
h you're able to control every aspect of your dream. Except this is a nightmare and Strahd is the Lucid Dreamer.

It's more a nightmare designed to torment Strahd, and that includes giving him enough rope for him to hang himself, again and again.

[da newt]

My experience w/ CoS is fairly limited (one full run through the AL version and about 10 sessions into the hardcover now). In my opinion, Strahd is as defeatable as the DM chooses. It is pretty easy for Strahd to be neigh invulnerable if the DM decides that he ought to be - the campaign as written certainly gives him plenty of tools / power to be omnipotent - as you stated this land is really a creation of his own making. Or he can be as vulnerable as any other Vamp ... It all depends on the desires of the DM.

I'm not a fan of CoS - it's too much a slog where you feel like the party can't succeed, your demise seems a forgone conclusion, it's just a matter of how much toil and suffering you will manage to survive before ultimately failing. I prefer campaigns where it feels like you have a chance and someone is rooting for you. There is no balance to CoS, there is no light counter for the darkness, good vs evil, happy vs miserable - it's just all miserable.

In CoS, there is no one to save - they are all beings created by Strahd, just players in his nightmare creation. He's like a beholder that dream stuff into reality, but he hates himself (self loathing) so everything he creates is miserable and twisted and evil and also ****ty for Strahd (plenty of stuff in there for an armchair psychologist to pontificate about).

But it all depends on the DM ...

[Unoriginal]

In my opinion, Strahd is as defeatable as the DM chooses.

I mean, you're right, but that is true for every single thing in the game.

[clash]

From personal experience


end up in a portal room with strahd, some hordes of bats, and living stone statues. During an epic battle almost everyone goes down, the buffy the vampire slayer based ranger survives via absorb elements. I nat 20 a death save, flip up to my feet with the athlete feat and run the highly injured strahd straight through the chest with the sunblade. Then carry the team through the portal having no idea where it takes us.


but to better answer the question posed it really comes down to 2 things.

1. Strahds ego will always be good biggest downfall. Sure he could kill the pcs but where is the fun in chasing a few rats and killing them.

2. he has a very killable stat block. Get to him and kill it.

[Waterdeep Merch]

The very first thing a DM needs to do when running CoS is decide what Strahd actually wants from the party, and it absolutely should not be "to utterly destroy them". Even ignoring them presents problems later, because once the party becomes a threat it makes sense that he'd then spare no effort in destroying them. He feels weak and unjustified otherwise.

He wants Tatyana, sure, and having a player be Tatyana is an easy answer- he won't risk her safety by attacking with too much force. You can also apply this to a non-Tatyana character as just a person Strahd has taken an interest in, for whatever reason you like. I used the latter for my first CoS game.

Also don't forget his supreme, arrogant confidence and absolute boredom. By CoS, he sometimes summons adventurers into Barovia just to shake things up. He doesn't want to crush them because then he's right back to being bored. He believes he's too powerful to be seriously hurt by the party and treats the entire thing as a game, maybe even telling them so at dinner to lay out some ground rules (including places that are off-limits or else, like Amber Temple, and people he doesn't want the party interfering with, like Ireena). I used this one in my first game as well.

Another option is that he's concocted a scheme to escape Barovia that somehow involves the party. The traditional I6 Strahd scheme is to see if any of the players could potentially replace him as Darklord. This interpretation would have him test and scare the players to make them more ruthless while ensuring he'd never want them dead. I used a variation on this in my second game, and am planning it again for the third by utilizing I10's Apparatus as a major part of his scheme.

Remember, Strahd is a schemer. He absolutely could have the party dead, and he has zero qualms with wiping out visitors quickly when he doesn't want them there. If the party survived wandering around, it's because Strahd wants them alive.

[da newt]

In my opinion, Strahd is as defeatable as the DM chooses.


I mean, you're right, but that is true for every single thing in the game.

I believe we are in violent agreement.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I have never 'beaten' Curse of Strahd and I'm convinced it is unbeatable from a player's perspective.

But what does it mean to 'beat Strahd' anyway?
1. Get out of Barovia?
2. Outsmart him?
3. Something else?

Is "beating" D&D, really the best feeling to be striving for? D&D doesn't boil down to be a game about wining and losing, ultimately it is about storytelling and creating memories.


he can raise a literal army to assist him

That is an interesting question, can Strahd raise an army? I'm playing CoS now, so I have not read the module, however, my impression is Strahd is fairly isolated from the population centers of Barovia.

Both Valiki and the Village of Barovia fear Strahd, and hate Strahd passionately. At least in the game I am in, Strahd seems to be viewed less as a ruler, and more as a despoiler, thus...I don't see Strahd raising an army from his living 'Subjects'.

The undead of Barovia personify Depressive cycles of repetitive action. The Strahd Zombies and Vampire Spawn seem wild, and not disciplined. Strahd the Conquerer-Military Leader, hasn't existed for centuries now. Imposing military discipline on the unruly vampire spawn would take time.

As a player, I myself, am starting to consider creating a 'Resistance Group'. History, shows, it can work...sometimes.


Secondly: Ravenloft is either a literal Plane of Dread (if you go by the AD&D versions)

I'm afraid, the above quoted statement, is factually incorrect. The 1e AD&D, Original version of Ravenloft was set in the Prime Material plane. The PCs could leave and come back with an army of Paladins if they were able to arrange it.


CoS (I think it's overrated bull**** and a relic of AD&D, but that's me)

How is Ravenloft a relic of AD&D when, every edition after 1983 has had a version of the module? Scores of professional designers, for whatever reason, (I certainly don't have an explanation), have elected over decades of time to reiterate the product.

Over decades, Ravenloft continues to sell. People, (perhaps other people than yourself), seem to enjoy the story the module tells. You seem to be adding a pinch of "Edition War" spice to your argument, that seems unnecessary.

CoS is 5th Edition D&D through and through. It is fine to not enjoy the module, but there is no need to attribute the vagaries of aesthetic preference to some moral failing due to association with a prior edition....which is what is seemingly conveyed by some of the statements and sentiments from the original post.

[Unoriginal]

Is "beating" D&D, really the best feeling to be striving for? D&D doesn't boil down to be a game about wining and losing, ultimately it is about storytelling and creating memories.

There's a difference between beating D&D and beating the main antagonist, though.



The undead of Barovia personify Depressive cycles of repetitive action. The Strahd Zombies and Vampire Spawn seem wild, and not disciplined. Strahd the Conquerer-Military Leader, hasn't existed for centuries now. Imposing military discipline on the unruly vampire spawn would take time.

I would argue that Strahd would be unable to do it because he is one of the undead stuck in his repetitive cycles.

[verbatim]

For any DM's interested in running CoS in tandem with the new Ravenloft book, an interesting option could be to have Strahd be playing with the party until an altercation wherein they are forced to flee to a neighboring Domain of Dread and it becomes clear to Strahd that things are serious and to the party that the next time they enter Barovia the Mists will curtail all escape attempts and the gloves will finally come off.

[jaappleton]

Strahd is....

Ok. I have a lot of mixed feelings about Strahd.

Because that charm effect of his is utter GARBAGE.

My Barbarian spent three entire sessions charmed by him. Three sessions where I could do NOTHING. Three sessions of...

I'm angry again just typing this out. My goodness.

Strahd's HP is miniscule for what he should be capable of doing. Fighting him solo in an open area, and Strahd is cinders. Especially with all the class options that've come out since CoS.

But its ridiculous how powerful that charm is.

[Unoriginal]

Strahd's HP is miniscule for what he should be capable of doing.

I mean...

He's a wizard.

[jaappleton]

I mean...

He's a wizard.

.....you're not wrong.

He's also a total ass.

But yes. Also a Wizard.

[KorvinStarmast]

.....you're not wrong.

He's also a total ass.

But yes. Also a Wizard.
And he's a vampire. Ever since Original D&D, the vampire's charm ability was scary strong, one of it's most powerful and dangerous abilities.

They Charm men-types merely by looking into their eyes (treat as a Charm Person spell with a minus 2 for the object's saving throw against magic). Before you think that's easy stuff, let's look at how scary strong Charm Person was in the original game.

Charm Person: This spell applies to all two-legged, generally mammalian figures near to or less than man-size, excluding all monsters in the "Undead" class but including Sprites, Pixies, Nixies, Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins and Gnolls. If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the "charm" is dispelled (Dispell Magic). In other words, charm person was forever. If you want to survive as a low level magic user in OD&D, step 1 was to find a 3d or 4th level Fighting Man NPC and lay a little charm person on him. :smallsmile: Yep. Very handy. :smallwink:
The spell was so strong that Gygax nerfed it in Greyhawk.

Charm Person: Intelligence allows the charmed person to eventually free itself from the charm. A check will be made on the following basis, and if a score equal to a save vs. magic is made the charm is broken.
1

INT
Check Every


up to 6
month


7-9
three weeks


10-11
two weeks


12-15
week


16-17
two days


8 and above
day


Maybe, just maybe, your team mates should have buffed you with spells and protections to protect the dangerous barbarian from being charmed.

We recently had our paladin get charmed/dominated by an enemy spell caster. The paladin dutifully spent a round attacking and smiting our warlock (OUCH!!!) before the sorcerer cast dispel magic. I was about to do a countercharm (bard, I am) but the sorc's initiative was ahead of mine.

[jaappleton]

The fact that Strahd's charm removes player agency is what kills me.

Damn near every other effect for any condition in the game, whatever imposes the effect usually lets you get a saving throw at the end of your turn. Pretty much everything, except really high level spells or incredibly high CR creatures.

And this is so, so difficult to break. I hated every moment of it. Legitimately it ruined the campaign for me.

NINE CONSECUTIVE HOURS OF PLAY TIME spent charmed.

[KorvinStarmast]

The fact that Strahd's charm removes player agency is what kills me. {snip} NINE CONSECUTIVE HOURS OF PLAY TIME spent charmed. What, your party had no counter for that?
(Yea, watching your PC as a spectator for three sessions is kinda grim, but they have those spells in the game and they can be used on PCs)
I can completely get how frustrating that is as a player. I can't think of very many players who would find that appealing for three sessions in a row.

[jaappleton]

What, your party had no counter for that?
(Yea, watching your PC as a spectator for three sessions is kinda grim, but they have those spells in the game and they can be used on PCs)
I can completely get how frustrating that is as a player. I can't think of very many players who would find that appealing for three sessions in a row.

At the time we were in Castle Ravenloft, leading up to the penultimate battle.

Party members that're prepared casters didn't have anything prepared that can remove it, and understandably they were afraid to take a long rest while in the castle.

It was a set of circumstances which ultimately led to a bad time for me, for sure.

[Angelalex242]

In general, an average party of 5 level 10 should be able to take him. Particularly if there's a Paladin lurking around to smite what HP he has into non existence. Smite will also take out the heart of sorrow if he can DPS it to death fast enough.

But...as mentioned elsewhere, Strahd's arrogance is the main thing keeping him from following the Evil Overlord list.

Humble/Following Evil Overlords by the book Strahd might need significantly more than level 10 to take him out.

[Mitchellnotes]

I'm running a group through CoS right now, and it's a blast. I think there are a couple of things to keep in mind:

1) Strahd can have a Lot of different motives. It's really better to try to focus it a little bit. I like the idea of Strahd being the absolute lord and master of his domain. Being generally polite, not having to threaten because he is in absolute control, or believes he is anyway. I also like the idea of him toying with players, and as others have said, looking for entertainment. The joy of Strahd is really this idea that he is a victim of circumstance or that he can be "redeemed." I think the intro does a great job of laying out that at his core, Strahd is truly evil and that the romantic notion of being able to change the "tortured vampire trope" is at its core a fallacy. That is what the amber temple should make clear, Strahd engaged in a course of action to kill Tatyana and Sergie fully knowing what he was about. It isn't passion or rage, it was cold blooded calculation. Any infatuation that still exists could be a glimmer of remorse (Sergei) or anger (Tatyana being able to avoid him for so long)

2) It isn't necessary to do Everything. You can do it all, but why? Based on how the artifacts surface, there are certainly times when certain elements will be more relevant and come to the surface more

3) The important thing is to have fun! Some groups like to wargame, some groups are going to like the horror element. Some groups are going to want to explore more. Know your group and play to them, and allow them to surprise you with how they problem solve different encounters

4) Allow for a variety of endings depending upon what the player choices are and where they are going

[Battlebooze]

I don't think Strahd's Barovia microcosm should be ran as his personal demi-plane, it should be ran as a cruel prison that will inevitably betray and disappoint him. The players should suffer under this power when Strahd abuses it, but should eventually also be the beneficiaries of it's fickle nature when it turns on Strahd.

You could do something like this; every time Strahd "cheats" and manipulates Barovia to his benefit, make a tick mark. Eventually this debt will come back and bite him. When there is the opportunity for something to truly hurt or irritate Strahd, like the charmed barbarian suddenly breaking his charm at the worst time, or Strahd not noticing the rogue sneaking up behind him, or the downed Cleric succeeding on a divine intervention check, then those ticks should represent how many bad turns he will suffer.

Strahd isn't a god in his demiplane, he is a right bastard stuck in a prison customized to torment him. I would say if the players are reasonably competent, they should always be able to escape or thwart Strahd.


The trick is to hide this from the players because it shouldn't be something they can rely on.

[jaappleton]

As far as running CoS itself, the best thing I can say is this:

Fallout: New Vegas

You've got different factions, and at any point the party can kill the wrong person and end a whole quest line. You have to be able to help them fail forward. If they end something prematurely, make sure there's a path to something else. Another quest line, some NPC to talk to, anything to help point them in a direction to go. Don't let them just run around in circles.

There's many parts of CoS which serve little to no meaning if there's no artifact placed there. Cut out the fat.

[Rhocian Xothara]

Gee, that sounds familiar. I was also recently invited by an outstanding, old school DM to a CoS campaign (Yeah, Ravenloft is a unique take on D&D) and I wonder if you and I were doing chargen together last night on Discord.
By the way, this is a brilliant description *applause*

Funnily enough, YES - I was doing chargen on Discord last night!

But seeing as your location is set to 'Texas' and I live in Lincoln, England... Just the purest of coincidences?

[Chugger]

How to beat Strahd?

First, don't play at a table where the DM might actually be the kind of DM who would come close to activating any of that extreme paranoia I just read in the OP. If you're in the hands of a "good" DM - one who is there to provide a player-appropriate challenge and at least some fun - you don't have to worry about any of that "raising an army" stuff. I mean seriously - can't you see how paranoid that reasoning is?

Next, just play a Devotion Paladin. It would help to have a cleric in the party, too - to have remove curse earlier - to dispel magic - and to have another level of Turn Undead. If he sends waves of undead at you, turn undead sends most of them running away.

If anything, I felt the final combat w/ Strahd was a let-down. He wasn't powerful enough, and others - many others - have said the same.

If your DM sets you up to fail, if they make things "impossibly hard", if they make you feel like you have to guess their precise solution (and you'd have to be psychic to do so consistently, because their "solutions" aren't logical and you have no reasonable clues to guess them), then you're in the hands of what I'd call a "bad" DM.

CoS is amazing because it's one of the few hardcovers / modules that actually has some _drama_ in it. Strahd bullies you early on. He shows up and could take you out, but instead he humiliates you - knocks the party down and then laughs - says you aren't even worth the effort, and leaves. For him, humiliating others and leaving them to stew in bad emotions - it feeds him (metaphorically) - it's how he gets his kicks. Maybe he wants to be challenged - maybe that's why he allows a party to explore Barovia and grow in power - maybe he doesn't know some of the things you might find - etc.

But you will grow to _hate_ Strahd, and it is rewarding to take him out at the end, even if you are left with a feeling that in x years he might rematerialize. You at least knocked him out for your time and gave the people of this cursed realm a respite -and at least w/ Strahd down, you can leave this horrid land.

Mostly, if your DM really would screw w/ you like you fear and make you suffer and wipe, having never had a real chance of winning, the solution for you is to find a new DM.

[da newt]

"Imposing military discipline on the unruly vampire spawn would take time."

"Most of a vampire’s victims become vampire spawn — ravenous creatures with a vampire’s hunger for blood, but under the control of the vampire that created them." - MM

All it takes to control all the vampire spawn is Strahd's will to do so.

[Sigreid]

Our party learned enough about him to catch him at one of his sentimental haunts outside the castle. Force wall was used to box him in with the character weildingnthe sun sword.

[da newt]

"If anything, I felt the final combat w/ Strahd was a let-down. He wasn't powerful enough, and others - many others - have said the same."

This is a fair statement IF Strahd decides to stand toe to toe and trade blows, and allows you access and knowledge of his resting place, otherwise he simply wafts away to regen and do it all again - the infinite do loop ... depending on how your DM chooses to interpolate Misty Escape.

"When it drops to 0 hit points outside its resting place, the vampire transforms into a cloud of mist (as in the Shapechanger trait) instead of falling unconscious, provided that it isn’t in sunlight or running water. If it can’t transform, it is destroyed.
While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can’t revert to its vampire form, and it must reach its resting place within 2 hours or be destroyed. Once in its resting place, it reverts to its vampire form. It is then paralyzed until it regains at least 1 hit point. After spending 1 hour in its resting place with 0 hit points, it regains 1 hit point."

Creating the conditions that allow him to be trapped and destroyed permanently requires DM allowances.

[Chugger]

"If anything, I felt the final combat w/ Strahd was a let-down. He wasn't powerful enough, and others - many others - have said the same."

This is a fair statement IF Strahd decides to stand toe to toe and trade blows, and allows you access and knowledge of his resting place, otherwise he simply wafts away to regen and do it all again - the infinite do loop ... depending on how your DM chooses to interpolate Misty Escape.

"When it drops to 0 hit points outside its resting place, the vampire transforms into a cloud of mist (as in the Shapechanger trait) instead of falling unconscious, provided that it isn’t in sunlight or running water. If it can’t transform, it is destroyed.
While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can’t revert to its vampire form, and it must reach its resting place within 2 hours or be destroyed. Once in its resting place, it reverts to its vampire form. It is then paralyzed until it regains at least 1 hit point. After spending 1 hour in its resting place with 0 hit points, it regains 1 hit point."

Creating the conditions that allow him to be trapped and destroyed permanently requires DM allowances.

I think you missed the other comments I made about how imho a DM should provide player-appropriate challenges. Once a DM grasps that concept, the DM can figure out how much of the "escaping to attack again" should happen. Sure, a DM can be literal - can be a jerk - can decide to just tpk - and such a DM doesn't need CoS to make life miserable for their group.

A "good" DM (as I see it) will figure out their players' abilities and likes - and find a way to work with them - and let Strahd come back as often as makes sense - but allow the party to find clues to finally corner Strahd (there are numerous ways to do this - Strahd does have weaknesses - a number of them).

Are some of us really seeing CoS as a "the party has no hope of ever winning and it's just how long can they suffer the grind until they wipe" module? Really?

[Deen]

I played that module twice and honestly in both times DM was really capable guy but unless you remake/houserule Strahd himself- he is very underwhelming enemy once party reaches level 7+. In both times party was at level 9-10 in finale and despite best efforts a well coordinated team that can combo with each other + access to Dawn/Sunsword/Smites/Holy Weapon and Counterspell make short work of him. Honestly his castle is way worse than he is.

Anyway in my first CoS he died in 3 turns once fully buffed (Haste, Holy Weapon, SoM) PAM GWM Hexblade got into melee range and literally did 150 dmg to him in one turn and then ready action: Dawn hit him the moment he was killed so his mist was destroyed.

Second time it was little harder due to him escaping in mist form but we gathered enough info to guess location of his coffin + Locate Creature always helps and we finished him off then. But fight again wasn't that hard. Counterspell from Wizard, Paladin, Cleric, Moon Druid + EK/Wizard were enough to power through him without issue.

I also want to add that yes, the Castle and then finale with Strahd should be long and hard etc. However, in both cases campaign took around year+ to finish. CoS is really great adventure but people are becoming really tired of campaigns at that point so DMs also really wanted to wrap things up and not making that into another few weeks of playing. Which is totally agreed with because as a player I also wanted to just end CoS at that point even though I had fun playing it.

[Chugger]

I played that module twice and honestly in both times DM was really capable guy but unless you remake/houserule Strahd himself- he is very underwhelming enemy once party reaches level 7+. In both times party was at level 9-10 in finale and despite best efforts a well coordinated team that can combo with each other + access to Dawn/Sunsword/Smites/Holy Weapon and Counterspell make short work of him. Honestly his castle is way worse than he is.

Anyway in my first CoS he died in 3 turns once fully buffed (Haste, Holy Weapon, SoM) PAM GWM Hexblade got into melee range and literally did 150 dmg to him in one turn and then ready action: Dawn hit him the moment he was killed so his mist was destroyed.

Second time it was little harder due to him escaping in mist form but we gathered enough info to guess location of his coffin + Locate Creature always helps and we finished him off then. But fight again wasn't that hard. Counterspell from Wizard, Paladin, Cleric, Moon Druid + EK/Wizard were enough to power through him without issue.

I also want to add that yes, the Castle and then finale with Strahd should be long and hard etc. However, in both cases campaign took around year+ to finish. CoS is really great adventure but people are becoming really tired of campaigns at that point so DMs also really wanted to wrap things up and not making that into another few weeks of playing. Which is totally agreed with because as a player I also wanted to just end CoS at that point even though I had fun playing it.

Exactly. This is what I almost always hear - CoS was very atmospheric and moody, I really got scared sometimes - but then we got powerful and whooped Strahd too easily. Even if he escapes and has to be tracked down and killed again, it's still not a hard fight. This is how CoS is typically run.

I don't know where the whole "omg Strahd is impervious" thing is even coming from, unless a DM is running it ultra-hardcore. If that's fun for a group of players, hey, more power to 'em. And yes, Strahd is "unkillable" or ultimately "undestroyable", but once "down" takes a long while to rematerialize or come back. I guess this thread is a clash of playing styles.

[Keravath]

I've run CoS and there are a few important things to keep in mind.

In the beginning, it is trivially easy for Strahd to kill the party. However, he doesn't WANT to do so. He is bored, looking for a successor to take over so he can leave (though he doesn't really believe that he will ever find anyone worthy) ... so for at least the first 1/2 to 3/4 of the adventure Strahd throws challenges at the party to see of they can prove themselves or if they just die off showing that they were never worthy in the first place.

Strahd is also over confident, he has had centuries of playing with these strangers who enter Barovia and never losing. Everyone else is weaker than him. He needs real motivation to do anything to improve himself.

However, if the party survives and collects the magic items that are distributed around Barovia then Strahd and any other undead become trivially easy to kill off. Strahd doesn't stand a chance and honesly, the sunsword is one of the least of the weapons against Strahd.

When I ran it, I significantly enhanced Strahd and came up with a strategy for the combat that would give him and his minions a fighting chance.

[Unoriginal]

"Imposing military discipline on the unruly vampire spawn would take time."

"Most of a vampire’s victims become vampire spawn — ravenous creatures with a vampire’s hunger for blood, but under the control of the vampire that created them." - MM

All it takes to control all the vampire spawn is Strahd's will to do so.

I'm pretty sure that the Vampire can't just mentally call their spawns to them, they need to order them in person.



Creating the conditions that allow him to be trapped and destroyed permanently requires DM allowances.

This is true for anything in the game.

[Maan]

Never played CoS (played in a heavily modified version of Barovia, though, without Strahd featuring as the Dark Lord) but I read the whole module because I just loved the original one.
Well, honesly: the first module was a really good one. It was true to the concept of an ancient vampire playing cat and mouse with the PCs.

Present day CoS? Not so much.
I think I lost hope about it just in the preface: "players will be free to explore the way they want. Only, ehr, railroad them to where they are supposed to go, otherwise they may easily stumble into some encounter that is way above their level and meet a TPK."
Nice atmosphere, most of the places and encounters are really nice; but overall, the module just doesn't work in the way it is put together. The gameplay just doesn't hold together.

Also, no matter what WotC says, D&D won't ever be a good system for an horror game.
PCs can just too easily become more powerful than the dangers the DM can put in their way. For an horror game to work you have to scare the player at least a little bit, as you scare their character: not easy when the players know that the game is built to always have challenges you can face head on...

Side note:
About "charm", I think too many people are still thinking of it like "mind control puppeteering": that's not how it works in 5e.

[Thunderous Mojo]

"Imposing military discipline on the unruly vampire spawn would take time."

"Most of a vampire’s victims become vampire spawn — ravenous creatures with a vampire’s hunger for blood, but under the control of the vampire that created them." - MM

All it takes to control all the vampire spawn is Strahd's will to do so.

Control is not the same as military discipline. My German Shepherd is obedient, and trained, but would absolutely scavenge a piece of meat off the counter if the meat was left unattended for hours.

Vampire Spawn are hungrier than German Shepherds, and people are a vampire spawn's meat.

Given the state of Barovia....Strahd doesn't strike me to be much of a micromanager, (🃏), and doesn't seem to care about his vampire spawn at all.

I can't say I am in agreement with Chugger's intimation that Rhocian Xothara's position in the Original Post is "Paranoid". Ravenloft....not any game of Ravenloft that I ever have been involved with, has ever been a "level appropriate" affair, with a guaranteed Happy Ending.

Strahd is tough, and is meant to be. Make one mistake, or lack a resource such as a scroll of Greater Restoration, and you might end up Charmed for 9 hours.

As a player, I am actually enjoying the tension that is created, be being aware of how tough Strahd is....plus I really want to stake the blackguard....I had two TPKs in a row in the Original 1e module...and I want payback, revenge .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=istJXUJJP0g

[Angelalex242]

Well...realistically. Charm is the only tool in Strahd's arsenal likely to really piss a player off.

If you wanna get somebody irritated and angry, take their agency away, and watch the bitterness and resentment develop.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Well...realistically. Charm is the only tool in Strahd's arsenal likely to really piss a player off.

If you wanna get somebody irritated and angry, take their agency away, and watch the bitterness and resentment develop.

Vampire Charm is the real killer, not Strahd. Nothing has caused more strife at my table than a Vampire's Charm, so much so that I'm afraid to even use them. It really was the only power Strahd had worth using though, his magic was easily countered and even using a beefed up stat block for him he wasn't much more than a speed bump of a final encounter. It left me feeling pretty underwhelmed but I think my players really enjoyed crushing him so handily.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Well...realistically. Charm is the only tool in Strahd's arsenal likely to really piss a player off.

If you wanna get somebody irritated and angry, take their agency away, and watch the bitterness and resentment develop.

Ultimately, I disagree with characterizing being subjected to a Charm effect, as "taking away a player's agency".

A Charm effect, certainly, places some constraints on what a player can and can't do...but Strahd doesn't directly control the PC.

Improvisational acting is about reacting, and incorporating the new stimulus into one's performance. Ideally, a DM should work with a player to discuss how being Charmed is an opportunity to explore one's character through Roleplaying.

Strahd using a Charm effect on a PC also places constraints on Strahd, especially if Strahd wishes to keep the Charm in effect.

As Korvin indicated previously....Charm Person used to last 48 hours on an 18 INT character and up to a month on less Intelligent PCs.....that used to be disastrous.

[Maan]

[...]
A Charm effect, certainly, places some constraints on what a player can and can't do...but Strahd doesn't directly control the PC.
[...]
Strahd using a Charm effect on a PC also places constraints on Strahd, especially if Strahd wishes to keep the Charm in effect.
I agree.

Let's say it's your typical party, where PCs are likely friends (or at least good companions).
Strahd's Charm is going to make him another good friend for the PC: no better than his other friends.
Let's say two good friends of yours start a fight: you won't take sides with one of them against the other; you'll try and stop them, without hurting any of them.

As a DM, I would rule that hurting someone dear to a PC totally counts as doing "anything harmful to the target", thus triggering a new Save against it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

As a DM, I would rule that hurting someone dear to a PC totally counts as doing "anything harmful to the target", thus triggering a new Save against it.
That's pretty far from the mark, imo, since the Charm makes them regard Strahd as a trusted friend to be protected anyone damaging him would also trigger a save for that reason.

[Sandeman]

In our campaign he killed like 3-4 PCs (my dwarf cleric and 2 warlocks I can remember) during several enounters.
But he was always overconfident and arrogant. He never viewed us a legitimate threat and toyed with us until we broke into his sleeping chambers with the Broken Symbol of Ravenkind and easily beat him.

[Chugger]

I can't say I am in agreement with Chugger's intimation that Rhocian Xothara's position in the Original Post is "Paranoid". Ravenloft....not any game of Ravenloft that I ever have been involved with, has ever been a "level appropriate" affair, with a guaranteed Happy Ending.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=istJXUJJP0g

I said "player appropriate" - or I'm pretty dang sure I did - and there is a wide gulf between "level appropriate" and "player appropriate". Player appropriate takes into account all sorts of subjective variations in what a DM encounters at the table. I think you and a couple of others are not really picking up on what I mean - and this is too frustrating a forum for me to try. I think some of us just don't want to understand me because our basic assumptions about how to run dnd are too different. Or something.

Yes, CoS is hard in the beginning - and once you finally corner Strahd (unless your sadistic, perverted DM never lets you do that - or w/e motivates such a DM to run a game I certainly wouldn't play), Strahd is typically too easy to kill - when - a DM doesn't give him enough sauce. Our DM maxed his HPs, and when I critted on a smite, gave Strahd even more - and gave him an ability to wall off my Pal - so the rest of the party could feel it was a worthy battle. But the Strahd from the book barely lasted into round 2.

I'd modify Strahd even more, were I to run this.

But with that said, if a DM wants to murder characters, a DM can do that. There's nothing to stop a DM from wailing on even low-level characters that reach zero health - except for said players quitting. When this happens after lvl 11 or so - yeah - we're in the big leagues at that point. The point I'm making is that any DM can be a jerk and run things insanely, grindingly hard.

A lot of the initial hardness in CoS is really just color or atmosphere - cuz Dark Gifts happen, at least the way it was run for me (in Adv League; CoS may go differently outside AL - which also may be a source for how so many of us see this HC so differently). A lot of the initial hardness, to be honest, is more color than actual "hardness". There are points where you are supposed to feel helpless - someone is supposed to die and be raised back w/ a Dark Gift, at least the way it is often run. That phase ends, and combat normalizes for the most part.

Now, given the huge number of subjective variants at play here, your mileage may vary, as they say. I think we need to stop talking past each other, as we've been doing - and recognize that some people experience one version of CoS, and others experience another version of it. I'm trying to respect this when I say something like "sheesh, if you really have a DM treating you that way in this HC, why do you play with them?" An appropriate challenge (think for a moment what that could mean - don't just pop off) is the DM's job, right? Appropriate for the ability and personality types of the players, as best as can be done. It's not right to "tsunami" inexperienced players, or experienced but very casual players who have never figured out the difference between Melf's Acid Arrow and Fireball (these people exist; I've met them) - and so on (where this gets hard is at a table with widely mixed players who vary a lot in basic talent and ability to function well in our game environment).

Given that some some of you experience CoS-From-Hell, okay, if a DM runs it that way, then it is what you say. I had it run pretty hard - but I never felt our CoS was "bad" enough to merit the OP's "paranoia" from a mechanical standpoint - because again, the worst parts were more atmospheric or color than real (because Strahd is playing w theparty and not going to wipe them early on - because Death House is supposed to scared you but not TPK you (there are Dark Gifts, possibly)). Anyway, I really wish we'd stop arguing when there is no argument. It's in part my fault - it's also the fault of the stupid internet. If we were speaking face to face, we wouldn't be arguing like this - it's so much easier to explain where you're coming from. We're coming from different angles. Start w/ that premise.

[Maan]

That's pretty far from the mark, imo, since the Charm makes them regard Strahd as a trusted friend to be protected anyone damaging him would also trigger a save for that reason.
Uhm, no.
My reference was to this line about his Charm attack: "Each time Strahd or his companions do anything harmful to the target, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success."
For it to work as you wrote, Strahd would have to harm himself. Or have is minions hurt him.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Uhm, no.
My reference was to this line about his Charm attack: "Each time Strahd or his companions do anything harmful to the target, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success."
For it to work as you wrote, Strahd would have to harm himself. Or have is minions hurt him.

If we're making loose connections your allies are allies of Strahd through the charmed target.

Or we can go full ridiculous and say the emotional struggle that you yourself suffer (being charmed by Strahd definitely makes you a companion) having to watch your friends fight is harmful.

Or we can accept what is likely the intention and have it appropriately be harmful effects directly against the target. Having your allies hurt sucks, but it's not harming you.

[DwarfFighter]

If you had infinite gold, would you be able to bribe him?

-DF

[Maan]

If we're making loose connections your allies are allies of Strahd through the charmed target.

Or we can go full ridiculous and say the emotional struggle that you yourself suffer (being charmed by Strahd definitely makes you a companion) having to watch your friends fight is harmful.

Or we can accept what is likely the intention and have it appropriately be harmful effects directly against the target. Having your allies hurt sucks, but it's not harming you.
This is just reductio ad absurdum.
I would deem totally reasonable that seeing him hurting someone you love should at least give you a chance to snap out of it. A moment where you go "wait, what he's doing??"
I guess we just like to play the game different ways, which is obviously fine.

[Angelalex242]

Strahd can do a lot that doesn't directly harm the target...and even one thing that does, because he's allowed to feed on a charmed character.

But if he wants to tell you to do the funky chicken naked in the middle of the town square, he can make you do just that.

[Thunderous Mojo]

But if he wants to tell you to do the funky chicken naked in the middle of the town square, he can make you do just that.

"Making" someone 'do something' is compulsion, not Charm.

Strahd can suggest a course of action to a Charmed creature, and the creature is going to be as receptive to Strahd's proposition as they can be.

That said, Strahd is still just a friend. The character's fears, phobias, and ethical matrix are still intact...just warped by a new found friendship.

Me personally, I'm going to end a Friendship, before I am going to dance the funky chicken, naked, in the middle of a crowded square.

The human body doesn't distinguish between 'emotional' or 'physical' pain. Hit Points are not a pain meter. Presumably attacks that do more damage hurt more, than attacks that do less.....but no actual game edict like that that is set in writing.

As a point of practical DM-ing, if Strahd can, as a friend, ask you to commit some unspeakable act with a farm animal or your mother, something that would be inimical to your avatar's personality, beliefs, and prior actions....with no chance of resistance....this, probably, exceeds, the power of the Charmed condition.

A Charmed person will protect Strahd, will let Strahd, use and degrade them...past what the limits of what a Charmed person thought they would do...but at some point some uses of Strahd's Charm will break the limit from Charm to Compulsion....and should prompt a Saving Throw.

[ProsecutorGodot]

"Making" someone 'do something' is compulsion, not Charm.

Strahd can suggest a course of action to a Charmed creature, and the creature is going to be as receptive to Strahd's proposition as they can be.

That said, Strahd is still just a friend. The character's fears, phobias, and ethical matrix are still intact...just warped by a new found friendship.

He's got a little more impact than that. Though it's clear that a Vampire doesn't have direct control their requests are taken in the most favorable way. If Strahd asks you to do something completely insane, you're either going to do your best to rationalize a way to do something reasonably close or (at the most generous interpretation) politely decline the request.

It also says that it takes Strahd's actions in the most favorable interpreted way. Strahd can butcher the charmed targets friends under the pretense that they've broken a local law and the punishment is execution and the charmed player is very likely to find that reasonable if they're the type to respect the law. With a high enough deception check he could probably convince the charmed target that their allies had planned to betray them and he's only looking out for your best interests. Perhaps he's charmed them at the dinner table before they sprung up to fight him, and he asks them to step outside. Even though they know the party plans to fight, they still may do so, reasoning that preventing other creatures from entering the room is a reasonable compromise.

The effect is vague, but powerful. It isn't domination, but it's as close as any other charm effect gets to that.

[Angelalex242]

Strahd can get really clever.

"It is said that anyone who does the funky chicken naked in the middle of the town square at noon shall be protected from werewolves."

The charmed people do just that, the not charmed people obviously don't.

Then Strahd tells the local werewolves to attack only the party members that didn't do the funky chicken naked and completely ignore those who did.

There's some epic gaslighting that he can get up to.

[MrCharlie]

So mechanically, it's rather simple. He's not that tough if you merc him and he lives in a moderately dangerous castle. Summon a bunch of water elementals, throw some nets on him, engulf him in sunlight, and counterspell anything he tries to do. It's almost clinical.

The point is, why would Strahd let the PCs get anywhere near him? Or rather, why doesen't he kill them at level, say, 5 or 6, once they become identifiable threats? There are two answers.

First, the PCs should make themselves intriguing to Strahd. While, strictly speaking, solving the plotline with his long-lost love makes Strahd lose, he has absolutely no reason not to obliterate them if they go through that plotline to completion. If the PC's instead dangle her like bait, combined with making themselves appealing to Strahd-either by being goody two-shoes or by otherwise piquing his curiosity-they may be able to delay his retaliation.

Remember, Strahd is only extremely intelligent. He also has severe and explicit character flaws that determine his perceptions and motivations. If he's being played as an invincible villain the DM is missing the point-he's threatening, but he's a bad guy specifically because he has such glaring personality flaws that they have screwed him over. If the PC's can exploit this, they can win handedly.

Secondly, the PCs ought to explore the nature of the demiplane.

There is no right answer here, because I'm 100% sure the DM will change this from what's in the book if only because what's in the book is intentionally vague, but Strahd can only lose if he's supposed to lose. And the nature of the demiplane determines if he's supposed to lose. Maybe the solution is to supplant him, maybe the solution is to make a deal with the "Dark powers", maybe the solution is to manipulate the narrative in a way that torments both Strahd and the people of the plane in the future, maybe the solution is to make themselves into the antithesis of Strahd's story and rub his face in it repeatedly, but this all depends on how the DM interprets the demiplane to work.

Oh, and third, don't play with a DM who thinks Strahd is in any way a true mastermind or invincible enemy. Strahd sucks. Strahd makes plans that, partially because of how he sucks, blow up in his face regularly. Strahd is doomed to fail. The PC's just need to make themselves the ones who deliver this failure.

[JackPhoenix]

"If anything, I felt the final combat w/ Strahd was a let-down. He wasn't powerful enough, and others - many others - have said the same."

This is a fair statement IF Strahd decides to stand toe to toe and trade blows, and allows you access and knowledge of his resting place, otherwise he simply wafts away to regen and do it all again - the infinite do loop ... depending on how your DM chooses to interpolate Misty Escape.

"When it drops to 0 hit points outside its resting place, the vampire transforms into a cloud of mist (as in the Shapechanger trait) instead of falling unconscious, provided that it isn’t in sunlight or running water. If it can’t transform, it is destroyed.
While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can’t revert to its vampire form, and it must reach its resting place within 2 hours or be destroyed. Once in its resting place, it reverts to its vampire form. It is then paralyzed until it regains at least 1 hit point. After spending 1 hour in its resting place with 0 hit points, it regains 1 hit point."

Creating the conditions that allow him to be trapped and destroyed permanently requires DM allowances.

Not really. The Sunsword produces sunlight. If Strahd drops to 0 within LoS and 30' of someone holding it, he's destroyed instantly, no matter where he is.

[da newt]

Creating the conditions that allow him to be trapped and destroyed permanently requires DM allowances.

"Not really. The Sunsword produces sunlight. If Strahd drops to 0 within LoS and 30' of someone holding it, he's destroyed instantly, no matter where he is."

I believe we are in violent agreement - saying the same thing but in different ways. If your DM allows Strahd to be so pigheadedly arrogant that he marches willfully straight into a trap that can finish him off permanently because he just wants it all to end, then he is not that hard to defeat. If your DM plays Strahd as a tactical pro who understands that he is not immortal (with a very high INT and significant WIS) and he wants to survive, then he is extreeemly difficult to pin down.

How stupid would a vampire have to be to casually stroll into a room with several capable adventurers that he has been watching and getting to know for some time, when one of them wields the Sunsword? Is this realistic / logical or does it require DM fiat to move the plot in a certain direction - it all depends on individual interpolation / beliefs / opinions.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Not really. The Sunsword produces sunlight. If Strahd drops to 0 within LoS and 30' of someone holding it, he's destroyed instantly, no matter where he is.

He can fogcloud if he wants to try and stay in the same room, otherwise his only hope is to leave or force the wielder to leave. The Sun Sword is almost enough on its own to deal with his tricks.

That's why the adventure makes it clear that he wants the weapon destroyed. Between the Sun Sword and his Tome, the adventure places a lot of emphasis on the fact that he knows how crippling a weakness it is for the players (or anyone) to have the sword or know the contents of his Tome.


There is no right answer here, because I'm 100% sure the DM will change this from what's in the book if only because what's in the book is intentionally vague, but Strahd can only lose if he's supposed to lose. And the nature of the demiplane determines if he's supposed to lose. Maybe the solution is to supplant him, maybe the solution is to make a deal with the "Dark powers", maybe the solution is to manipulate the narrative in a way that torments both Strahd and the people of the plane in the future, maybe the solution is to make themselves into the antithesis of Strahd's story and rub his face in it repeatedly, but this all depends on how the DM interprets the demiplane to work.
The Tarokka reading can make or break Strahd's chances. Nearly everything my players needed was within the area between Vallaki and the Winery. They leveled up pretty quickly and had powerful tools to combat Strahd before his third check up on them.

So for as much fun as the Torokka reading is, I would highly recommend that a DM goes through the results and stacks the deck ahead of time towards the degree of difficulty they're aiming for. Or you can avoid the reading altogether.

[Deen]

The point is, why would Strahd let the PCs get anywhere near him? Or rather, why doesen't he kill them at level, say, 5 or 6, once they become identifiable threats?

Yup that's the point I never understand when people talk about COS: "why would Strahd let them fight him", "why would Strahd not run away each time nad return later", "why would Strahd not attack them with Fireball each time they enter new room in his Casle", "why would Strahnd not come only when one of PCs has 1 HP and he can kill him easy and then vanish" and so on.

Maybe because it's meant to be epic finale, a great battle, and - end of campaign. Not dragged hide n seek for next month worth of session just so players can finally have their revanage on BBE. I mean players waited year+ on average for finale battle and yet now DM will drag everything and play Hide n Seek. Yes, I get it's climatic in book, in movie etc. But I think it's a chore in long campaign.

Wouldn't mind that in one-shot where level 8 PCs explore Strahd castle with him playing all cards and hide n seek and then finish with finale.

[Wizard_Lizard]

With the power of FRIENDSHIP!

[ProsecutorGodot]

Wouldn't mind that in one-shot where level 8 PCs explore Strahd castle with him playing all cards and hide n seek and then finish with finale.

If I recall correctly, James Haeck had done just such a thing while he was writing for DND Beyond. First he made a condensed version of CoS that took place entirely within the castle, then a followup that assumes that the Strahd killed was actually a doppelganger.

Then he became an illithid vampire and they went to space.

[Thunderous Mojo]

It also says that it takes Strahd's actions in the most favorable interpreted way. Strahd can butcher the charmed targets friends under the pretense that they've broken a local law and the punishment is execution and the charmed player is very likely to find that reasonable if they're the type to respect the law.




There's some epic gaslighting that he can get up to.

We seem to be in basic agreement about the power of Strahd's Charm Ability. The key distinction between a Charm vs a Compulsion effect, is under a Compulsion effect the DM can tell the player what their character does, in the case of a Charm effect the DM can only make a case to the player, and stack the circumstances around the player to achieve Strahd's aim.

Epic Gaslighting requires Epic lies that have to be maintained...and eventually those lies fail. Bullsh@t is still [email protected] when you really want to believe it....and at some point it becomes impossible to deny that BS is BS.

This is going to be a Player Decision, when that BS limit is reached.

Ultimately, if a Player's Experience of Curse of Strahd was that they, (the player), had no agency as a result of Strahd's Charm...then the DM failed in preserving the Charm/Compulsion Boundary, and neglected to get player Buy-In and Input.



So for as much fun as the Torokka reading is, I would highly recommend that a DM goes through the results and stacks the deck ahead of time towards the degree of difficulty they're aiming for. Or you can avoid the reading altogether.

I agree, I think this is a sound "Best Practice" for Barovia.👍

[Keravath]

In my game, Strahd wanted the characters dead by the end. They had freed Tatyana through the pool and earned his enmity. However, they had also acquired many powerful magic items and he knew all of them. It was easy for him to decide that his usual tactics would likely not work. Both he and his minions would have troubles due to the sunlight and 30' protection from evil never mind the other powerful magic items that the characters had recovered (including the one that turned vampires and increased the ability of the cleric to turn creatures).

This motivated Strahd to plan and study. While the players adventured in Barovia, Strahd studied at the Amber Temple. The only reason he had stopped his progression as a wizard was lack of motivation not intelligence and after the characters had visited the temple he had some assistance in learning.

He also sought allies. He created two vampire mages to assist him - though one was lost testing the party to determine their likely tactics and strategies. He also recruited several of the remaining druids from Yester Hill. These worshipped him so were more than willing to help. He made sure that they knew the fog cloud and silence spells. He also recovered his great sword from Argynvostholt (actually from the characters since they had found it first) and donned his plate armor that he used to wear into battle. He also had a few vampire spawn.

The final version of Strahd had more hit points, an AC of 21 and was a 13th level spell caster. The plan he developed was to take out the party the old fashioned way - with his sword. He set up his encounter (in the room that had been foretold). The characters went to meet him, there was some discussion, the hidden druids cast several overlapping fog cloud and silence spells. The wizard in the party counterspelled the first fog cloud but more were to come making future use of counterspell impossible. The wizard and cleric in the party were limited in spells they could cast due to silence and fog cloud. Sunlight was useless. Various sources of disadvantage from the sunlight to protection from evil were also useless. As far as Strahd was concerned this leveled the playing field - he cast Tenser's transformation on himself (since he wasn't silenced) and the battle began.

There were several elements in the wings in case the battle went sideways (Spirit of Tatyana to distract Strahd, a PC that had left the party just as they entered the castle who had accepted a dark gift and could be put in on either side of the conflict). However, none of these were needed. The party managed to defeat Strahd and the minions though it was close. Strahd managed to knock two of the characters to zero hit points at different points in the conflict and the fight seemed up in the air for most of the fight. When Strahd finally went down he was in a fog cloud so the party had to track him down in his tomb to finish the fight since the sunlight from the sunblade wasn't effective.

If I had used Strahd unmodified against all the items that can be found in the module, the fight would have been trivial and over in 2 rounds. Which is unrealistic. Strahd is far too intelligent to fight a lost cause. He is over-confident and underestimates his opponents but he isn't stupid. In my game, Strahd came up with a strategy that he thought would work to mitigate the advantages of the party and allow him to destroy them with a minimal use of minions. The party had retained some resources (paladin smite) and the paladin was able to hit (along with some of the other characters) to reduce Strahd to zero hit points before he realized there was a real risk - so he did not try to flee.

Anyway, it was a fun fight and seemed like a decent ending to a long campaign (but it did require heavy modification to accommodate the party and NPC).

[Addaran]

The fact that Strahd's charm removes player agency is what kills me.

Damn near every other effect for any condition in the game, whatever imposes the effect usually lets you get a saving throw at the end of your turn. Pretty much everything, except really high level spells or incredibly high CR creatures.

And this is so, so difficult to break. I hated every moment of it. Legitimately it ruined the campaign for me.

NINE CONSECUTIVE HOURS OF PLAY TIME spent charmed.

I'm curious, what exactly happenned when you got charmed? In pratice, with my DMs, charm doesn't stop me from playing and RPing, unlike being Held or unconscious.
Did Strahd just told you to sit in the corner?

[Glorthindel]

I don't think Strahd's Barovia microcosm should be ran as his personal demi-plane, it should be ran as a cruel prison that will inevitably betray and disappoint him. The players should suffer under this power when Strahd abuses it, but should eventually also be the beneficiaries of it's fickle nature when it turns on Strahd.

This is the answer; Barovia and the Mists are not on Strahd's side. They want him to fail, they want him to suffer, and they want his own arrogance and hubris to be his downfall. What is his greatest weapon, his control of the land, will and should fail him when he most needs it.

[Dankus Memakus]

I once played in a game where a whole bunch of well loved characters got TPK'd by Strahd. We played all our games in the same universe and a few years later I watched a cleric with divine intervention plane shift a tarrasque into barovia.

[jaappleton]

I'm curious, what exactly happenned when you got charmed? In pratice, with my DMs, charm doesn't stop me from playing and RPing, unlike being Held or unconscious.
Did Strahd just told you to sit in the corner?

I regarded my allies as enemies of Strahd, and Strahd as my ally.

We were in Castle Ravenloft, nobody had prepped anything capable of removing such a powerful ability. And being inside the castle, understandably, they didn’t want to take a long rest.

The worst part is how it happened. My PC, Grom the Half Orc Barbarian (with a little Fighter) hit like a truck but was dumb as a rock. In a previous skirmish with Strahd, in one round, Grom had managed to get Strahd to about 1/3rd of his health in one turn. And the way the DM described it, for the first time in decades, Strahd felt legitimate fear.

So NATURALLY, I say with a heavy dose of sarcasm, when we encounter him in the castle, Grom leaps into action. Grom thinks “Oh I totally got this, watch and learn, he’s going DOWN!”

And as soon as I was more than 15ft from the most important party member.

As soon as I was far enough away from the only thing that could’ve prevented this from happening in its entirety.

Far enough away from someone who picked their subclass solely because I convinced them to pick it.

When I was far enough away from the PALADIN OF DEVOTION

Strahd charmed Grom, and the party had to KO Grom and keep him unconscious for essentially the remainder of the campaign.

[Unoriginal]

I regarded my allies as enemies of Strahd, and Strahd as my ally.

This is FAR more powerful than what the Vampire's Charm is in 5e.

The most Strahd would have been able to do was convincing your PC he was as much an ally as your actual allies, with your Barbarian unwilling to kill either.

A Vampire can't get their Charmed victim to attack their own allies without further manipulations.

So your DM massively boosted Strahd, either accidentally or voluntarily.

[KorvinStarmast]

So your DM massively boosted Strahd, either accidentally or voluntarily. On the other hand, Strahd doesn't want to lose - he has lost so many times before, in life and in unlife - so he'll pull out all of the stops if he realizes "Whoa, I could lose here!"

[Osuniev]

On the other hand, Strahd doesn't want to lose - he has lost so many times before, in life and in unlife - so he'll pull out all of the stops if he realizes "Whoa, I could lose here!"

I mean, yeah, but it shouldn't change the way the Vampire's Charm work.

My players are currently in the Amber Temple. Twice now some of them have been Charmed by Strahd, at no point did they lose agency. I DM-whispered to them "you see Strahd as a trusted friend", then THEY decided what they would do.

One of them gave Strahd the bones of St-Andral, asking for Strahd to spare his companions - which Strahd did. It was something they actually considered even before being Charmed.

One of them stepped out of melee, and pleaded the others to stop. One of them actually listened and tried to negociate a truce.

[jaappleton]

This is FAR more powerful than what the Vampire's Charm is in 5e.

The most Strahd would have been able to do was convincing your PC he was as much an ally as your actual allies, with your Barbarian unwilling to kill either.

A Vampire can't get their Charmed victim to attack their own allies without further manipulations.

So your DM massively boosted Strahd, either accidentally or voluntarily.

Strahd's weird. Not the normal vampire, of course.

From the stat block:

" The charmed target regards Strahd as a trusted friend to be heeded and protected. "

My party wanted to kill him. So... Grom had to protect Strahd.

Also taken from the stat block, and this is why I absolutely HATE Strahd's stat block:

"Each time Strahd or his companions do anything harmful to the target, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success. Otherwise, the effect lasts 24 hours or until Strahd is destroyed, is on a different plane of existence than the target, or takes a bonus action to end the effect."

My party didn't have a way to end it. I can see a lot of scenarios in which there are no ways for a group to end the charm prematurely, short of killing Strahd.

[Osuniev]

My party wanted to kill him. So... Grom had to protect Strahd.

Protecting him doesn't have to mean physically attacking your allies until you go inconscious, though. It could mean talking them out of attacking now. It could mean attempting parley. It could mean trying to restrain both Strahd and the other melee fighter.

This is nothing special to Strahd, all vampires have the same text :


The charmed target regards the vampire as a trusted friend to be heeded and protected. Although the target isn't under the vampire's control, it takes the vampire's requests or actions in the most favorable way it can, and it is a willing target for the vampire's bit attack. Each time the vampire or the vampire's companions do anything harmful to the target, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success. Otherwise, the effect lasts 24 hours or until the vampire is destroyed, is on a different plane of existence than the target, or takes a bonus action to end the effect.

Note that I interpret this as :
- you will let the Vampire bite you (but will get a Save to end the Charm afterwards, since a Bite Attack is definitely "something harmful to you")
- you will treat the Vampire as if he was a NPC close friend from your background. How would your character react if the other PCs started fighting among themselves ? Or attacking his brother ? THAT'S a RP decision in your hands as a player, which definitely includes agency.

[jaappleton]

Protecting him doesn't have to mean physically attacking your allies until you go inconscious, though. It could mean talking them out of attacking now. It could mean attempting parley. It could mean trying to restrain both Strahd and the other melee fighter.

Grom has an intelligence of 5.

I feel as though I don't need to elaborate as to how Grom tries to solve problems. :smalltongue:

[Osuniev]

Grom has an intelligence of 5.

I feel as though I don't need to elaborate as to how Grom tries to solve problems. :smalltongue:

Fair. :smallsmile: Kudos on you for choosing to RP Grom this way even though it was frustrating. But if it was TOO frustrating, remember you had (RAW at least) the right to RP that differently. That decision is (or at least, should be) yours.

[Valmark]

When I was far enough away from the PALADIN OF DEVOTION

Uh, why didn't the paladin just stay next to you? Did the DM rule that the Aura only works to prevent the effect and not to remove/suppress it?

This is FAR more powerful than what the Vampire's Charm is in 5e.

The most Strahd would have been able to do was convincing your PC he was as much an ally as your actual allies, with your Barbarian unwilling to kill either.

A Vampire can't get their Charmed victim to attack their own allies without further manipulations.

So your DM massively boosted Strahd, either accidentally or voluntarily.

I mean, if it says that the charmed heeds Strahd's words in the most favorable way possible there aren't many interpretations of "kill X now" that don't lead to fights.

[jaappleton]

Uh, why didn't the paladin just stay next to you? Did the DM rule that the Aura only works to prevent the effect and not to remove/suppress it?


I mean, if it says that the charmed heeds Strahd's words in the most favorable way possible there aren't many interpretations of "kill X now" that don't lead to fights.

I personally rule Aura of Devotion in that it prevents charms from happening, but if they're already affecting a target, it does not suppress them.

Is this not the correct interpretation?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Uh, why didn't the paladin just stay next to you? Did the DM rule that the Aura only works to prevent the effect and not to remove/suppress it?
I can see an argument to be made that the aura only prevents a charm from taking root, if we look at Protection from Evil and Good it uses the same wording (you can't be charmed) but has a follow-up that creatures that are already charmed get advantage on subsequent saves.

As for effects that do remove or suppress charms, they say so specifically, as is the case for Greater Restoration (surprised to see that Lesser isn't enough) and Calm Emotions respectively.

I would 100% rule differently (we already do with Aura of Courage) at my own table but I think that actually having it not end the effects is likely correct.


I mean, if it says that the charmed heeds Strahd's words in the most favorable way possible there aren't many interpretations of "kill X now" that don't lead to fights.
More than likely the character would simply refuse to take part in the ensuing combat choosing neither side, unless as in jaapleton's case, they're being played as an exceptionally stupid brute (I must stress I mean the character Grom here and not jaapleton) who takes requests at face value with little regard to their sensibilities.

It is according to the characters interpretation here after all.

[jaappleton]

More than likely the character would simply refuse to take part in the ensuing combat choosing neither side, unless as in jaapleton's case, they're being played as an exceptionally stupid brute (I must stress I mean the character Grom here and not jaapleton) who takes requests at face value with little regard to their sensibilities.

It is according to the characters interpretation here after all.

I'm personally nothing like the character Grom.

I'm just exceptionally stupid. :smallbiggrin:

[Valmark]

I personally rule Aura of Devotion in that it prevents charms from happening, but if they're already affecting a target, it does not suppress them.

Is this not the correct interpretation?

I think both are fine, although I personally rule the other way- For what's worth the intent is for the aura to work on those already affected (based on a tweet that literally says that RAW is unclear but RAI is that they are suppressed, nothing else).

[KorvinStarmast]

I think both are fine, although I personally rule the other way- For what's worth the intent is for the aura to work on those already affected (based on a tweet that literally says that RAW is unclear but RAI is that they are suppressed, nothing else).
Similar to Bard's countercharm.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Grom has an intelligence of 5.

I feel as though I don't need to elaborate as to how Grom tries to solve problems. :smalltongue:

Ahh...so you made a Roleplaying choice....and a potentially fun one at that: how does the group proceed when a party mate has been turned into Renfield?



From the stat block:
" The charmed target regards Strahd as a trusted friend to be heeded and protected. ""Each time Strahd or his companions do anything harmful to the target, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success. Otherwise, the effect lasts 24 hours or until Strahd is destroyed, is on a different plane of existence than the target, or takes a bonus action to end the effect."

My party didn't have a way to end it. I can see a lot of scenarios in which there are no ways for a group to end the charm prematurely, short of killing Strahd.

jaappleton, I think your party might have hosed you. I just find it doubtful that the best course of action for the party was to deprive themselves of your contribution.

Your character could still smash any creature in the castle, as long as Strahd wasn't present at the battle. When Strahd was battling the group, the new 'Mini Game' for the party could have become "how do we get Strahd to damage jaapleton".

Instead, it seems your party knocked you out and stuffed you in the portable "Time Out" Box......OKAY? 🥺

Your DM also failed. I've also committed a similar blunder, (though the player was out for 40 minutes not 9 hours). The DM should have either placed a Consumable Greater Restoration....or signaled to the group to take a Long Rest...to bring you back into the game.

Verisimilitude is fine, but people having fun, needs to trump verisimilitude, sometimes.

Thanks for sharing your tale!

[Unoriginal]

The Charm made Grom see Strahd as an ally who needs protecting.

Preasumably, Grom also saw his party as allies who need protecting.

Grom does have an issue with attacking his allies to protect his other allies.

So, logically, Grom could have been attacking everyone in ordre to stop them from fighting each other. Because KOing someone is the surest way to get them out of a fight they shouldn't be having.

Grom hitting Strahd For the Vampire's own safety would have been legendary.