Pandorym canon abilities (with sources)

[ShurikVch]

even Pandorym getting loose isn't a "the Material Plane explodes" kind of threat, more of a "Pandorym will get around to muching on your Prime world one of these millennia" kind of threat.

Pretty bold claim - considering Pandorym have no stats
Are you sure you didn't confused it with Atropus?

The book laid out already what its capabilities are when freed. If you intend to argue otherwise, I would ask that you start a separate thread for it as it is not germane to the purpose of this thread. I will not engage any further on the matter.
And there there we are.

My point is:
Most of Pandorym's abilities are unlisted
Thus, claiming what he(/it?/they?) can or can't do is kinda presumptuous - especially when your assumptions contradicting the fluff

AFAIK, Pandorym's known - but not the only! - abilities are:

Body (Elder Evils, p. 82) - a huge Sphere of Annihilation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation), which isn't susceptible to control (even with the Talisman (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#talismanoftheSphere)), not destroyed by the Rod of Cancellation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#cancellation), or by casting the Gate spell. Pandorym can exist even without a body - thus it, while impressive, isn't the "main" ability.
Creation of Mind Shard of Pandorym (Elder Evils, p. 83)
While no other abilities were stated explicitly, there is absolutely no way there is nothing else:

If released, Pandorym's consciousness is an imposing challenge for any being - mortal or immortal. However, if the crystal is damaged but not destroyed, a tiny fragment of Pandorym's mind might be released. Resembling a miniature galaxy of dark menace, even this shard is more than a match for the most powerful characters.
Pandorym > Mind Shard of Pandorym

[DragonIceAdept]

As per page 81,


Either the mind or the body of Pandorym alone is powerful enough to end a campaign. If the two are brought together, the alien weapon would be unstoppable. A reunited Pandorym should lead to the end of the campaign world.

[Melcar]

As per page 81,

Well, assuming two things, that statement is undoubtedly untrue!

1) Its set in the multiverse ergo The Lady of Pain is a thing, so it probably won't end the entirety of the multiverse... even if your campaign encompasses multiple worlds.
2) If the game is set in FR, AO is a thing, ergo, he probably would not allow the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace to be destroyed by some entity from the perpendicular Far Realm!

EDIT: Also cosidering Srinshee, Elminster, Larloch, Iolaum being chosen of Mystra and Mystryl they probably function as some form of Guardians of the Galaxy/ Avengers of Toril, so they can probably stop that being fairly easy! Especially if they were build by the forum denominator!

[Zanos]

The abilities are unlisted for a reason. You can't stop it, so it doesn't have stats. The Lady of Pain works the same way.


Well, assuming two things, that statement is undoubtedly untrue!

1) Its set in the multiverse ergo The Lady of Pain is a thing, so it probably won't end the entirety of the multiverse... even if your campaign encompasses multiple worlds.
2) If the game is set in FR, AO is a thing, ergo, he probably would not allow the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace to be destroyed by some entity from the perpendicular Far Realm!

EDIT: Also cosidering Srinshee, Elminster, Larloch, Iolaum being chosen of Mystra and Mystryl they probably function as some form of Guardians of the Galaxy/ Avengers of Toril, so they can probably stop that being fairly easy! Especially if they were build by the forum denominator!
Elder Evils are designed to be a threat to near-epic level characters. While I don't doubt that characters like Elminster, Larloch and Iolaum could survive, I question even their ability to stop a creature that was canonically used as a nuclear deterrent against deities. I think it's safe to assume that reassembled Panodrym is capable of defeating deities, because the fluff strongly suggests that is the case. While it's possible that Ao would intervene to prevent the entirety of the material plane from being destroyed, he has personally either caused or allowed to happen events that resulted in 'the end of the world as we know it' and the deaths of millions, so I think it's safe to say even if he does intervene it will be after most if not all major civilizations are destroyed, even if the plane itself does survive.

As an aside, Larloch and Iolaum aren't Chosen of Mystra, they're just badasses in their own right without needing their hand constantly held by the Goddess of Magic. :smallamused:

[Melcar]

The abilities are unlisted for a reason. You can't stop it, so it doesn't have stats. The Lady of Pain works the same way.


Elder Evils are designed to be a threat to near-epic level characters. While I don't doubt that characters like Elminster, Larloch and Iolaum could survive, I question even their ability to stop a creature that was canonically used as a nuclear deterrent against deities. I think it's safe to assume that reassembled Panodrym is capable of defeating deities, because the fluff strongly suggests that is the case. While it's possible that Ao would intervene to prevent the entirety of the material plane from being destroyed, he has personally either caused or allowed to happen events that resulted in 'the end of the world as we know it' and the deaths of millions, so I think it's safe to say even if he does intervene it will be after most if not all major civilizations are destroyed, even if the plane itself does survive.

As an aside, Larloch and Iolaum aren't Chosen of Mystra, they're just badasses in their own right without needing their hand constantly held by the Goddess of Magic. :smallamused:

It was human mages who summoned and imprisonned the Pandorym... so it’s not like it’s immune to mortal magic... therefore if it broke loose mortal magic should be able to bind it again...

Larloch, Srinshee and Ioulaum were Chosen of Mystryl according to Ed, over at candlekeep!

[Silent Alarm]

Larloch, Srinshee and Ioulaum were Chosen of Mystryl according to Ed, over at candlekeep!

Can you please link to me where Ed Greenwood actually said this?

EDIT: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall

[Zanos]

Can you please link to me where Ed Greenwood actually said this?

EDIT: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall
Thanks for the link. I can't argue with Ed about FR lore, but I'll choose to tactically disregard a book from 2014 when discussing the characters lore in regards to 3.x. Feels kind of like a retcon to me to say that Chosen of Mystrl exist at all when they were never mentioned outside the Herald, and it kind of confuses the history of Netheril for them to exist.

[Silent Alarm]

Thanks for the link. I can't argue with Ed about FR lore, but I'll choose to tactically disregard a book from 2014 when discussing the characters lore in regards to 3.x. Feels kind of like a retcon to me to say that Chosen of Mystrl exist at all when they were never mentioned outside the Herald, and it kind of confuses the history of Netheril for them to exist.

The history of Netheril gets retconned almost as often as Mystra dies. At this point, no one can knock you if you simply cannot follow all of the changes that occur across the editions, which may or may not be relevant to your edition.

[Melcar]

The history of Netheril gets retconned almost as often as Mystra dies. At this point, no one can knock you if you simply cannot follow all of the changes that occur across the editions, which may or may not be relevant to your edition.

A lot of things get retconned to fit what ever edition-cataclysmic event might usher in a new edition... However, I still use the Netheril Boxed Set for my Netheril information! I actually use 2nd edition lore for most things... it seemed like lore was a bigger part of the game back then!

[Thurbane]

On a vaguely related note, I'd really like to use Pandorym in a campaign some time, but my table has a hard ban on psionics. This is non-negotiable, so please don't suggest just using as-is.

How would you re-stat the Mind Shard using spells and SLAs instead of powers and PLAs?

Could I sub out 20th level Sorcerer casting, and chose spells known that approximate the powers known?

Same with Psi-like abilities: I guess I could chose roughly equivalent SLAs?

Psionics (Ex) would change to XP to use for spells with an XP component.

Not sure what to do about Vampiric Ego Whip (Su) or Swift Focus (Ex)?

[DragonIceAdept]

On a vaguely related note, I'd really like to use Pandorym in a campaign some time, but my table has a hard ban on psionics. This is non-negotiable, so please don't suggest just using as-is.

How would you re-stat the Mind Shard using spells and SLAs instead of powers and PLAs?

Could I sub out 20th level Sorcerer casting, and chose spells known that approximate the powers known?

Same with Psi-like abilities: I guess I could chose roughly equivalent SLAs?

Psionics (Ex) would change to XP to use for spells with an XP component.

Not sure what to do about Vampiric Ego Whip (Su) or Swift Focus (Ex)?

Honestly, I'm not sure. Are you the DM or a player looking to get a mind shard of Pandorym?

[Thurbane]

Honestly, I'm not sure. Are you the DM or a player looking to get a mind shard of Pandorym?

DM.

I'm always interested in converting certain psionic creatures and items for use in my game.

And Pandorym, thematically, is exactly the type of Elder Evil I'd love to centre a campaign around.

[Melcar]

On a vaguely related note, I'd really like to use Pandorym in a campaign some time, but my table has a hard ban on psionics. This is non-negotiable, so please don't suggest just using as-is.

How would you re-stat the Mind Shard using spells and SLAs instead of powers and PLAs?

Could I sub out 20th level Sorcerer casting, and chose spells known that approximate the powers known?

Same with Psi-like abilities: I guess I could chose roughly equivalent SLAs?

Psionics (Ex) would change to XP to use for spells with an XP component.

Not sure what to do about Vampiric Ego Whip (Su) or Swift Focus (Ex)?

Just like an Elder Brain is an arcane spellcaster in LEoF, and a Psionic creature in LoE, I would suggest you work backewards from that... you have two examples of that creature, so it should be fairly easy changing the Pandorym Mind Shard from a Psionic creature to an arcane, following the same lines of thought as done witht the Elder Brain! Pretty much just as you suggested yourself.

On a sidenote, I have never heard of a DM that had a hard ban put on him, like not being allowed to use psionics. This blows my mind... In my experience the DM has pretty much been able to use what ever (including 3rd party), while we the PCs were locked to official only... But each to his/her own I guess. My above suggestion still stands naturally!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And Pandorym, thematically, is exactly the type of Elder Evil I'd love to centre a campaign around.Considering you've explicitly said you don't allow psionics in your games, I highly doubt that.

[Thurbane]

Considering you've explicitly said you don't allow psionics in your games, I highly doubt that.

You...doubt that I know my own opinion on something? :smallconfused:

IMHO, the "thematics" of Pandorym isn't primarily about psionics. For me, it's an immensely powerful alien being that has had it's psyche ripped from it's physical form, and the campaign would be centred around preventing the two being re-united by some mad cultists. It's kind of like Tharizdun (in terms of goals and motivation) turned up to 11.

At our table, we re-fluff things all the time. I see no issue with re-fluffing psionic stuff as arcane magic or SLAs. Beguiler, Mindbender etc etc. all fill the theme of mental manipulation/mental powers.

Even Elder Evils itself has a side-bar on page 84 titled "Pandorym Without Psionics" (which I just stumbled on myself).

This side-bar actually directly answers a couple of my queries: it suggests replacing Vampiric Ego Whip with Vampiric Ray of Enfeeblement, and Swift Focus is replaced with the ability to use metamagic on spells without increasing casting time.


On a sidenote, I have never heard of a DM that had a hard ban put on him, like not being allowed to use psionics. This blows my mind... In my experience the DM has pretty much been able to use what ever (including 3rd party), while we the PCs were locked to official only... But each to his/her own I guess. My above suggestion still stands naturally!

It's mutually agreed in our group; none of us want it in the game, so it tends to be on the banned list of each DM.

[Melcar]

It's mutually agreed in our group; none of us want it in the game, so it tends to be on the banned list of each DM.

Ahh, that makes a lot more sense... the way you worded it, I got the feeling that you wanted to use psionics in your game but wasn’t allowed to by the PCs... :)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You...doubt that I know my own opinion on something? :smallconfused:You want Pandorym, but you don't want Pandorym, because Pandorym is inherently psionic. You want something that is significantly different than Pandorym. Thus my doubt that you actually want Pandorym, since you said you don't.

[Thurbane]

You want Pandorym, but you don't want Pandorym, because Pandorym is inherently psionic. You want something that is significantly different than Pandorym. Thus my doubt that you actually want Pandorym, since you said you don't.

Yeaaaah. OK. A bit of a strawman and a little rude, but not worth arguing about.

I'll file this under agree to disagree.

[AvatarVecna]

As we all know, mechanics are flavor, and magic and psionics are too difficult to compare or mix together properly. That's why transparency is a myth invented by casuals.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeaaaah. OK. A bit of a strawman and a little rude, but not worth arguing about.

I'll file this under agree to disagree.It's kind of like ordering garlic-less garlic bread, innit?

[JNAProductions]

It's kind of like ordering garlic-less garlic bread, innit?

No. It's not.

Pandorym is a psionic cataclysm, but making it a magical cataclysm (while requiring some work to shift over) doesn't really lose the essence of it. Thurbane gave a good answer for what inspires them about Pandorym.

[Thurbane]

As we all know, mechanics are flavor, and magic and psionics are too difficult to compare or mix together properly. That's why transparency is a myth invented by casuals.

*shrugs*

I get your point (or at least I think I do?), but as a group we don't incorporate psionic rules in our game. Yes, it would be possible to re-fluff the mechanics, but fact is we don't want to, we'd rather modify or adapt mechanical elements as needed to fit our games.

I've played the game for close to 40 years. We didn't use psionics, right from when they were available in 1E. By mutual agreement, in fact, not one despotic DM enforcing their will on others. The most recent player at my table (my wife), who has only played 3E, looked at psionics and said "Why is this in a fantasy game"?

There is no right and wrong way to play D&D. Each table has their own stuff going on, and I support their right to do it. If you like psionics as written, great. Or if you like the mechanics of psionics as written but just re-fluffed, that's also fine and dandy. I have exactly zero issue with this. I don't know why the reverse isn't true?

Right now, I'm feeling a little attacked for asking a simple question: a question, BTW, that even the devs that wrote EE addressed in a sidebar - so it's not like I'm some raving lunatic for broaching the subject.


No. It's not.

Pandorym is a psionic cataclysm, but making it a magical cataclysm (while requiring some work to shift over) doesn't really lose the essence of it. Thurbane gave a good answer for what inspires them about Pandorym.

Thank you - I was starting to feel like I was doing a really poor job of explaining my POV.

[JNAProductions]

*shrugs*

I get your point (or at least I think I do?), but as a group we don't incorporate psionic rules in our game. Yes, it would be possible to re-fluff the mechanics, but fact is we don't want to, we'd rather modify or adapt mechanical elements as needed to fit our games.

I've played the game for close to 40 years. We didn't use psionics, right from when they were available in 1E. By mutual agreement, in fact, not one despotic DM enforcing their will on others. The most recent player at my table (my wife), who has only played 3E, looked at psionics and said "Why is this in a fantasy game"?

There is no right and wrong way to play D&D. Each table has their own stuff going on, and I support their right to do it. If you like psionics as written, great. Or if you like the mechanics of psionics as written but just re-fluffed, that's also fine and dandy. I have exactly zero issue with this. I don't know why the reverse isn't true?

Right now, I'm feeling a little attacked for asking a simple question: a question, BTW, that even the devs that wrote EE addressed in a sidebar - so it's not like I'm some raving lunatic for broaching the subject.

Thank you - I was starting to feel like I was doing a really poor job of explaining my POV.

Pretty sure AV is being sarcastic.

Since Psionics-Magic Transparency is a rules option, and I believe the default.

They're poking fun at Max, not you.

[Thurbane]

Pretty sure AV is being sarcastic.

Since Psionics-Magic Transparency is a rules option, and I believe the default.

They're poking fun at Max, not you.

Thanks, I thought there was a chance I may have been misunderstanding.

Apologies to AV for any misunderstanding.

[AvatarVecna]

*shrugs*

I get your point (or at least I think I do?), but as a group we don't incorporate psionic rules in our game. Yes, it would be possible to re-fluff the mechanics, but fact is we don't want to, we'd rather modify or adapt mechanical elements as needed to fit our games.

I've played the game for close to 40 years. We didn't use psionics, right from when they were available in 1E. By mutual agreement, in fact, not one despotic DM enforcing their will on others. The most recent player at my table (my wife), who has only played 3E, looked at psionics and said "Why is this in a fantasy game"?

There is no right and wrong way to play D&D. Each table has their own stuff going on, and I support their right to do it. If you like psionics as written, great. Or if you like the mechanics of psionics as written but just re-fluffed, that's also fine and dandy. I have exactly zero issue with this. I don't know why the reverse isn't true?

Right now, I'm feeling a little attacked for asking a simple question: a question, BTW, that even the devs that wrote EE addressed in a sidebar - so it's not like I'm some raving lunatic for broaching the subject.



Thank you - I was starting to feel like I was doing a really poor job of explaining my POV.

I wanna clarify that my sarcastic comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the person who seems to be insistent that the flavor is inherently and irrevocably changed by being slightly altered to be magic instead of psionics.

[Thurbane]

I wanna clarify that my sarcastic comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the person who seems to be insistent that the flavor is inherently and irrevocably changed by being slightly altered to be magic instead of psionics.

All good, it was my misunderstanding, but thanks for clarifying. :smallsmile:

And also sorry to the OP for my massive derail of the thread, although I feel the original discussion had more or less run its course?

[ShurikVch]

Well, assuming two things, that statement is undoubtedly untrue!

1) Its set in the multiverse ergo The Lady of Pain is a thing, so it probably won't end the entirety of the multiverse... even if your campaign encompasses multiple worlds.
2) If the game is set in FR, AO is a thing, ergo, he probably would not allow the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace to be destroyed by some entity from the perpendicular Far Realm!
Ever heard of "always a bigger fish..."? :smallwink:


It was human mages who summoned and imprisonned the Pandorym... so it’s not like it’s immune to mortal magic... therefore if it broke loose mortal magic should be able to bind it again...
Except it's, actually, immune to magic (except for Gate spell) - and not even just "mortal magic" - book says so

And we have no idea how it was imprisoned, thus - making assumptions would... You know that saying...

[Melcar]

Ever heard of "always a bigger fish..."? :smallwink:

In Realmspace AO is the biggest fish!



Except it's, actually, immune to magic (except for Gate spell) - and not even just "mortal magic" - book says so

And we have no idea how it was imprisoned, thus - making assumptions would... You know that saying...

IIRC it was The Imaskar Artificer Kings who both summoned and imprisoned it... (Elder Evils page 82) which would mean some form of mortal magic, albeit probably of epic level or true dweomers above level 9. How else would they split it up and keep its mind in their treasure room!?

[Doctor Awkward]

On a vaguely related note, I'd really like to use Pandorym in a campaign some time, but my table has a hard ban on psionics. This is non-negotiable, so please don't suggest just using as-is.

How would you re-stat the Mind Shard using spells and SLAs instead of powers and PLAs?

Could I sub out 20th level Sorcerer casting, and chose spells known that approximate the powers known?

Same with Psi-like abilities: I guess I could chose roughly equivalent SLAs?

Psionics (Ex) would change to XP to use for spells with an XP component.

Not sure what to do about Vampiric Ego Whip (Su) or Swift Focus (Ex)?


Being as I don't really understand the resistance to psionics I would literally just run it as is and tell the players that it's magic and not psionics. At most I would give it sorcerer spell slots of a 20th level caster with its current stats instead of power points and any power that is not merely a duplicate of an existing spell I would just call "original research."

[Thurbane]

Except it's, actually, immune to magic (except for Gate spell) - and not even just "mortal magic" - book says so

And we have no idea how it was imprisoned, thus - making assumptions would... You know that saying...

IIRC it was The Imaskar Artificer Kings who both summoned and imprisoned it... (Elder Evils page 82) which would mean some form of mortal magic, albeit probably of epic level or true dweomers above level 9. How else would they split it up and keep its mind in their treasure room!?

It's possible (but not probable IMHO) that having its psyche split from its body somehow gave it some kind of augmented magic immunity that it didn't possess while whole...or that it has evolved since the split.

[Khedrac]

In Realmspace AO is the biggest fish!

Both yes and no.

No: At the end of the last novel of the Avatar trilogy Ao prays to his superior (I think the implication is he is in despair about his charges - the gods - but it's been decades since I read my copy) so in relation to Realmspace there is a bigger fish.

Yes: Said undescribed superior seems to have granted Ao Realmspace to tend, so while there is a bigger fish, it's not in Realmspace (and probably would not fit therein).

[ShurikVch]

In Realmspace AO is the biggest fish!
No such thing as "the biggest fish"!
There is always a bigger fish. No exceptions!


IIRC it was The Imaskar Artificer Kings who both summoned and imprisoned it... (Elder Evils page 82) which would mean some form of mortal magic, albeit probably of epic level or true dweomers above level 9. How else would they split it up and keep its mind in their treasure room!?
For all we know, Pandorym could split voluntary (being diplomanced by its summoners)

[unseenmage]

...

For all we know, Pandorym could split voluntary (being diplomanced by its summoners)

Now I want to read a trashy manhua adaptation where Pandorym falls in love...

[Melcar]

Both yes and no.

No: At the end of the last novel of the Avatar trilogy Ao prays to his superior (I think the implication is he is in despair about his charges - the gods - but it's been decades since I read my copy) so in relation to Realmspace there is a bigger fish.

Yes: Said undescribed superior seems to have granted Ao Realmspace to tend, so while there is a bigger fish, it's not in Realmspace (and probably would not fit therein).

There are definetly more powerful entities out there than AO! However, being the creator of a Crystal Sphere makes you omnipotent in that sphere... Ergo he IS the most powerful being when it comes to his crystal sphere.


No such thing as "the biggest fish"!
There is always a bigger fish. No exceptions!


For all we know, Pandorym could split voluntary (being diplomanced by its summoners)

Is that what the novel/ Elder Evils says? I dont have the novel, so I don't know, but EE, seems to be pretty clear! Considering the Imaskar could ban an entire pantheon from the Realmspace, I'm fairly certain they could split a being from the far realms!

Also, yes, there are "bigger fish" in the multiverse but not within the crystalsphere of Realmspace!

[Raishoiken]

Both yes and no.

No: At the end of the last novel of the Avatar trilogy Ao prays to his superior (I think the implication is he is in despair about his charges - the gods - but it's been decades since I read my copy) so in relation to Realmspace there is a bigger fish.

Yes: Said undescribed superior seems to have granted Ao Realmspace to tend, so while there is a bigger fish, it's not in Realmspace (and probably would not fit therein).

I don't have much of the lore stuck in my noggin quite yet, but the fact that space outside of the spheres renders deific powers useless also implies things more powerful than even the "overdeities" like ao.

But also.... whats the sauce on Ao having a superior?? That's some juicy stuff right there

[ShurikVch]

Is that what the novel/ Elder Evils says? I dont have the novel, so I don't know, but EE, seems to be pretty clear!
It says: "hey cleaved its alien psyche from its body" - but don't explains how they performed that task


Considering the Imaskar could ban an entire pantheon from the Realmspace, I'm fairly certain they could split a being from the far realms!
Pandorym > Gods - book established it pretty certainly:

Knowing they couldn't hold Pandorym's full might with magic - mortal or divine

The wizards believed such a display would force the gods to relent. Instead, the deities struck first. What would stop a single member of that insolent cabal from being consumed by madness and reuniting the halves of Pandorym? Thus, before the cabal could consolidate its position, the gods blotted every trace of it from the world.

Ancient deities who remember that fearful time occasionally speak to their modern clerics of their decision, striking fear into the hearts of their followers. Having wiped out the wizards and their civilization, the gods could not undo what the cabal had achieved. Thus, they were forced to hide away Pandorym in its dual prisons and erase all known records of the thing’s existence. Nevertheless, tales persist of the weapon that kills gods, and they hint at its location.



Also, yes, there are "bigger fish" in the multiverse but not within the crystalsphere of Realmspace!
But Pandorym is from a different universe!
It's the very definition of OCP!
It must be able to kill all the gods - and Ao is a god...

[Eldonauran]

But Pandorym is from a different universe!
It's the very definition of OCP!
It must be able to kill all the gods - and Ao is a god...
Minor contention... Pandorym can kill 'gods'. Ao is GOD, in the capital "G" "O" "D" meaning of the word. I think, at best, Pandorym might cause Ao a slight bit of difficulty. Even in my creation myths for the various campaigns that I've run, there is a difference between gods and the Creator (originator, whatever you want to call it). The deities that mortals call 'gods' are finite beings that just possess immense levels of power. The Creator 'deity' is greater than the sum of the parts of the universe it spawned, and is 'infinite' as far as that universe is concerned. There might be greater infinities out beyond the scope of the universe, but Pandorym was summoned, bound and split by beings that were finite. It won't be able to do anything to Ao.

[ShurikVch]

Minor contention... Pandorym can kill 'gods'. Ao is GOD, in the capital "G" "O" "D" meaning of the word. I think, at best, Pandorym might cause Ao a slight bit of difficulty. Even in my creation myths for the various campaigns that I've run, there is a difference between gods and the Creator (originator, whatever you want to call it). The deities that mortals call 'gods' are finite beings that just possess immense levels of power. The Creator 'deity' is greater than the sum of the parts of the universe it spawned, and is 'infinite' as far as that universe is concerned. There might be greater infinities out beyond the scope of the universe, but Pandorym was summoned, bound and split by beings that were finite. It won't be able to do anything to Ao.
Let me explain:
Say, for example, Pandorym was unleashed by the original summoners
The problem is: they challenged not a single deity, nor even a whole pantheon - but every single deity, without exceptions
Even presuming Ao wouldn't intervene in the matter -
(which is rather unlikely, considering the fact death of all deities at once would be more harmful for the world than extensive nuclear bombardment)
- even in that case: what would prevent Ao from just creating a bunch of new gods and goddesses? It would make the whole deal pointless!
If killed deities would be replaced all the time - than the very killing is Sisyphean task.
Thus, if they really planned to kill all the deities - then it must to include Ao as well.

Also:

but Pandorym was summoned, bound and split by beings that were finite.
Gods were clearly afraid of Pandorym - it's why they genocide the summoners
And they were unable to destroy even split parts of Pandorym - what hope they have against united being?


The Creator 'deity' is greater than the sum of the parts of the universe it spawned, and is 'infinite' as far as that universe is concerned.
By the book:

If the PCs fail to stop Obligatum VII, it releases the imprisoned mind of Pandorym. The freed entity’s psyche is nearly impossible to defeat. It directs Obligatum VII to the dimensional prison housing Pandorym's body, where the two parts of the alien weapon will be reunited. The journey to this location takes some time, and the gods might be convinced to intervene. If they cannot or will not, Pandorym will fulfill its contract and destroy the campaign setting.
Ao is clearly a part of campaign setting
No matter how powerful he is in-world - if there is no world anymore...

[Silly Name]

I don't have much of the lore stuck in my noggin quite yet, but the fact that space outside of the spheres renders deific powers useless also implies things more powerful than even the "overdeities" like ao.

Not really? There doesn't need to be anything mightier than the various overdeities floating around in the Phlogiston. Godly powers don't work outside of their spheres because they get cut off from their power source if they exit the sphere, not because of any specific entity blocking their powers.

That said, there's a big, juicy debate to be had about the Lady of Pain and Ao, and the Lady's powers against overdeities in general.


But also.... whats the sauce on Ao having a superior?? That's some juicy stuff right there

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Luminous_being


Let me explain:
Say, for example, Pandorym was unleashed by the original summoners
The problem is: they challenged not a single deity, nor even a whole pantheon - but every single deity, without exceptions
Even presuming Ao wouldn't intervene in the matter -
(which is rather unlikely, considering the fact death of all deities at once would be more harmful for the world than extensive nuclear bombardment)
- even in that case: what would prevent Ao from just creating a bunch of new gods and goddesses? It would make the whole deal pointless!
If killed deities would be replaced all the time - than the very killing is Sisyphean task.
Thus, if they really planned to kill all the deities - then it must to include Ao as well.

Counterpoint: prior to the Time of Troubles, mortals on Toril did not know about Ao's existence. It was only through his involvement in the whole mess that Ao became known to the people of the Realms.

Thus, the Imaskari who summoned Pandorym probably did not know about Ao and thus the Overgod did not figure in their plans at all.

[Eldonauran]

Ao is clearly a part of campaign setting
No matter how powerful he is in-world - if there is no world anymore...No sure how I can explain the concept of something existing outside the framework that Pandorym has to operate within, and being completely immune to what happens within it. The Universe is a created toy to Ao. Nothing within it can threaten Ao directly. I am not going to allow a few simple sentences about the destruction of a 'campaign setting' to mean that Pandorym has the ability to threaten or destroy that which is infinite.

[afroakuma]

No sure how I can explain the concept of something existing outside the framework that Pandorym has to operate within, and being completely immune to what happens within it. The Universe is a created toy to Ao. Nothing within it can threaten Ao directly. I am not going to allow a few simple sentences about the destruction of a 'campaign setting' to mean that Pandorym has the ability to threaten or destroy that which is infinite.

This whole thread comes down to a matter of interpretation. ShurikVch has indicated how he intends to interpret any material to favor Pandorym being capable of multiversal destruction. There's not really a "debate to persuade" here, just people who hold different interpretations restating theirs.

[ShurikVch]

No sure how I can explain the concept of something existing outside the framework that Pandorym has to operate within, and being completely immune to what happens within it. The Universe is a created toy to Ao. Nothing within it can threaten Ao directly. I am not going to allow a few simple sentences about the destruction of a 'campaign setting' to mean that Pandorym has the ability to threaten or destroy that which is infinite.
The problem there is: Pandorym vs. Ao is "unknown vs unknown"
We can't be sure how it would work since both sides are lacking in relevant feats

Still, some notes to consider:
1) Who said Pandorym is "finite"? After all, all the gods of the setting failed to destroy it, and just reinforced containment which already existed there
2) Ao's power - even within the setting - is in question: he decreed that none of the gods fallen during the Time of Troubles should be reinstated, but Bane came back regardless. Also, other local beings are claimed to be overdeities too (Maztica (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Maztica_(goddess)), Celestial Emperor (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Celestial_Emperor), Fate (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Zakharan_pantheon#Fate)) - thus, Ao's power isn't so absolute even within the Realmspace...

[Eldonauran]

This whole thread comes down to a matter of interpretation. ShurikVch has indicated how he intends to interpret any material to favor Pandorym being capable of multiversal destruction. There's not really a "debate to persuade" here, just people who hold different interpretations restating theirs.
Eh, to each their own, right? We all have the right to hold our own opinions.

I'm actually running a game that deals with all the Elder Evils attempting to break into the campaign setting, or rather their cultists are attempting to create an opening for them. How the players go about interacting with the world and performing missions will determine which one(s) manage to get a foothold. Some will be stopped through their actions. Others, their actions will help enable, though they don't know this. Pandorym is certainly one of them and I've been focusing on its story arc the last few months. Figuring out exactly where Pandorym fits within the scope of power was quite important, and it is certainly one of the more powerful Elder Evils. It is not, however, more powerful than the being that shaped reality and created the universe. Since it originates from outside the universe, it may be on equal footing to the Creator... OUTSIDE of that Creator's creation, but while within it? It is constrained by the laws that Creator fashioned.


1) Who said Pandorym is "finite"? After all, all the gods of the setting failed to destroy it, and just reinforced containment which already existed thereThe other gods are finite beings, as they exist within a created universe that, while it may seem infinite, has limits, has a beginning, is subject to causality, and will have an end. Pandorym was conjured from outside of the Universe and is likely infinite in its own power, but manifesting within a finite universe, it cannot manifest its infinite power, thus is finite. The fact that finite beings were able to bind it at all speaks to this observation.


2) Ao's power - even within the setting - is in question: he decreed that none of the gods fallen during the Time of Troubles should be reinstated, but Bane came back regardless. Also, other local beings are claimed to be overdeities too (Maztica (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Maztica_(goddess)), Celestial Emperor (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Celestial_Emperor), Fate (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Zakharan_pantheon#Fate)) - thus, Ao's power isn't so absolute even within the Realmspace...There might be other 'overdeities' outside the Realmspace. They might be equal to Ao in power or not, out there. What matters is within the Realmspace. And, any being can claim any thing. I've only seen Ao perform actions that bound all others, including other deities. The Bane thing is murky but can be explained away.

[ShurikVch]

There might be other 'overdeities' outside the Realmspace. They might be equal to Ao in power or not, out there. What matters is within the Realmspace.
All three of aforementioned are related to the Realmspace: Maztica (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Maztica) (Maztica), Kara-Tur (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kara-Tur) (Celestial Emperor), and Al-Qadim (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Al-Qadim) (Fate) are all located at the very same Abeir-Toril (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abeir-Toril) as Faerûn...

[Eldonauran]

All three of aforementioned are related to the Realmspace: Maztica (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Maztica) (Maztica), Kara-Tur (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kara-Tur) (Celestial Emperor), and Al-Qadim (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Al-Qadim) (Fate) are all located at the very same Abeir-Toril (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abeir-Toril) as Faerûn...

Hmm...


An Overgod, also called an over-power, was a type of deity that existed beyond the normal ranking of the gods and of concepts such as alignment. Such beings existed beyond the bounds of the normal cosmology.

Although only one Overgod was confirmed in Realmspace, Lord Ao, some sages speculated about other beings that could be considered over-powers as well: the Supreme Bureaucrat of the Celestial Bureaucracy; Fate, the guiding principle behind the Zakharan pantheon; and Maztica, the mother-deity of the Maztican pantheon. I'll hang my argument on the one CONFIRMED overdeity, rather than speculation. We can speculate forever about how other aspects of reality manifest and are worshiped, but might as well attribute them to the overdeity indirectly manifesting his power. Things get weird with inifnite, or near infinite, concepts.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The other gods are finite beings, as they exist within a created universe that, while it may seem infinite, has limits, has a beginning, is subject to causality, and will have an end. Pandorym was conjured from outside of the Universe and is likely infinite in its own power, but manifesting within a finite universe, it cannot manifest its infinite power, thus is finite. The fact that finite beings were able to bind it at all speaks to this observation.

I would point out that many Torillian gods are "from outside the universe" in the same way that Pandorym is, either gods who literally traveled from another world to Toril (like the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons, who came from Earth [or at least a version of it] where they were known as the Babylonian and Egyptian pantheons, and individual imports like Tyr of the Norse gods and Loviatar of the Finnish gods) or multi-spheric gods who have a certain aspect/manifestation/etc. in Realmspace but exist elsewhere (most racial deities, most draconic deities, the Archomentals....), so they are arguably in the same smaller-fragments-of-a-larger-being territory that Pandorym is and any discussions of what either could do to or on the Material Plane as a whole are essentially academic.

I would also point that there's no indication that any campaign worlds have an intended/prophesied/definite/etc. end in the same way that the real world has "the heat death of the universe" or "the big crunch" or whatever, and in fact the Unity of Rings, the cycle of souls, the "cosmic battery" of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes, and similar implies that the Great Wheel will continue on forever unless actively ended by some being or force (Tharizdun, say), but that's more of a side note that's not directly relevant to Pandorym.


We can speculate forever about how other aspects of reality manifest and are worshiped, but might as well attribute them to the overdeity indirectly manifesting his power.

Indeed, the source for "they might be overgods as well" statements on the wiki posits basically the same thing:


The question of whether these over-gods are merely different versions of the same god Ao or are part of a committee of over-gods assigned their mortal parishes in different regions is a matter of theology best suited to sages. And, say the priests, more luck to them.

[Eldonauran]

I would point out that many Torillian gods are "from outside the universe" in the same way that Pandorym is, either gods who literally traveled from another world to Toril (like the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons, who came from Earth [or at least a version of it] where they were known as the Babylonian and Egyptian pantheons, and individual imports like Tyr of the Norse gods and Loviatar of the Finnish gods) or multi-spheric gods who have a certain aspect/manifestation/etc. in Realmspace but exist elsewhere (most racial deities, most draconic deities, the Archomentals....), so they are arguably in the same smaller-fragments-of-a-larger-being territory that Pandorym is and any discussions of what either could do to or on the Material Plane as a whole are essentially academic.I was under the impression that many of the 'gods' that appeared in the created Universe had no clear origin. If they did originate from outside the Realmspace, they must have entered into it and thus limited themselves to forms that 'fit' within the finite creation. If that is the case, their representations in the universe are mere Avatars of their greater self, as Pandorym would be. And whether or not Pandorym can destroy those Avatars is not in question. How easy it would be, is the question.


I would also point that there's no indication that any campaign worlds have an intended/prophesied/definite/etc. end in the same way that the real world has "the heat death of the universe" or "the big crunch" or whatever, and in fact the Unity of Rings, the cycle of souls, the "cosmic battery" of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes, and similar implies that the Great Wheel will continue on forever unless actively ended by some being or force (Tharizdun, say), but that's more of a side note that's not directly relevant to Pandorym.I am operating under the core premise that Causality is still present. The reasoning is beyond the scope of what I intended to discuss here as it borders on philosophical concepts that may or may not be applicable to the discussion. To keep it short: If time exists, nothing can be eternal that exists within it, and nothing that has a cause can be eternal. Yes, magic exists but even magic follows rules. Being(s) exist outside the Realmspace and are not subject to this concept.

[Tiktakkat]

No such thing as "the biggest fish"!
There is always a bigger fish. No exceptions!

Then, by definition, there is something bigger than Pandorym that can not merely whup it back into its prison, but delete it from existence entirely.

Way back in AD&D days, one of the suggested possibilities for destroying an artifact was having it crushed by the foot of a humble ant. Find that ant and Pandorym is toast. Of course, being an ant, it can then be stepped on by any random Commoner 1, or consumed by a random anteater. Indeed, as both ants, humble, haughty, or just plain ordinary, and anteaters are unstatted, they clearly have standing to deal with Pandorym and each other in case of trouble.

The campaign world is saved!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I was under the impression that many of the 'gods' that appeared in the created Universe had no clear origin.

All gods in Realmspace either arose ex nihilo (Selûne and Shar), were created as a side effect of their shared creation or the War of Light and Darkness (starting with Chauntea and ending with Mystryl), entered the crystal sphere at some point, or ascended to (or were gifted) divinity with the help of an existing deity. While someone may not know the origins of a particular god, those are all the possible options for all of them.


If they did originate from outside the Realmspace, they must have entered into it and thus limited themselves to forms that 'fit' within the finite creation. If that is the case, their representations in the universe are mere Avatars of their greater self, as Pandorym would be. And whether or not Pandorym can destroy those Avatars is not in question. How easy it would be, is the question.

I do agree that that's how that would work, I was mostly pointing out that you were contrasting stuck-within-Realmspace gods with a posited extraspheric-with-a-local-manifestation Pandorym, and while that case does apply to single-sphere gods in Realmspace there are also extraspheric-with-a-local-manifestation gods in Realmspace that are a separate case.


I am operating under the core premise that Causality is still present. The reasoning is beyond the scope of what I intended to discuss here as it borders on philosophical concepts that may or may not be applicable to the discussion. To keep it short: If time exists, nothing can be eternal that exists within it, and nothing that has a cause can be eternal. Yes, magic exists but even magic follows rules. Being(s) exist outside the Realmspace and are not subject to this concept.

I think you're conflating "Realmspace" with "the universe" and "outside of Realmspace" with "outside of space and time," here. Realmspace is merely one crystal sphere among many, and gods that operate outside of it are subject to the same multiversal laws as those that only operate within it--which does not include any necessary or definite end for the multiverse or anything within it, because in D&D causality and the proverbial arrow of time are determined not by cosmology (because neither the Great Wheel nor the Material Plane are expanding) nor entropy (because positive and negative energy are equal and balanced) nor thermodynamics (because the Wheel is not a "closed system" in the thermodynamics sense) nor particle decay (because K mesons aren't a thing) nor any other real-world physical principle, but rather by gods of time and/or Temporal Prime and/or the Temporal Energy Plane, depending on which crystal sphere you're talking about.

Relevantly for this discussion, the "multi-spheric" vs. "single-spheric" dichotomy doesn't actually map to or imply an "infinite" vs. "finite" or a "supernatural" vs. "constrained by physics" dichotomy for either Realms-specifc gods, multi-spheric gods, or Pandorym--or, heck, Tharizdun, who actually is a multiverse-scale threat. They all vary in size and power, but all of them are distinctly finite whether they're in Realmspace or not.

[Melcar]

My problem with the whole idea is that it was humans, albeit some of the most powerful humans to ever walk Toril, that somehow found Pandorym and either contacted it and negotiated with it, or brute forced it into submission by summoning and splitting it into body and mind.

If all this was done by mortal humans, albeit humans who in some aspects rivaled some gods, how could Pandorym be expected to be vastly more powerful than all the gods when all the gods destroyed the Imaskar?

Gods > Imaskar > Pandorym > Gods > Imaskar > Pandorym etc...

It makes no sense. I haven't been able to find even an e-book version of Darkvision, so I don't know the detail of the summoning, but I find it ridiculous when AO can create and destroy worlds to his liking. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Pandorym really was a power equal to AO, after it had destroyed the crystal sphere and all the gods, AO would snap his fingers, and all that was destroyed would come back just as it were.

I don't believe humans, even some as strong as the collective might of the Imaskar empire, could summon/call a being so powerful that it could destroy the creator of realmspace, when that empire was brought down by gods inferior to Pandorym.
I found these interesting posts on candlekeep:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18826

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18370

[Eldonauran]

Relevantly for this discussion, the "multi-spheric" vs. "single-spheric" dichotomy doesn't actually map to or imply an "infinite" vs. "finite" or a "supernatural" vs. "constrained by physics" dichotomy for either Realms-specifc gods, multi-spheric gods, or Pandorym--or, heck, Tharizdun, who actually is a multiverse-scale threat. They all vary in size and power, but all of them are distinctly finite whether they're in Realmspace or not.
Yes, you've got the idea of it. Perhaps the relevance of my overall argument extends to a much higher/greater reality that contains all that we are aware of in the overall dichotomy. Time exists. Some-when... it began. Even if the 'effects' of time are paused on certain planes/demi-planes. Causality still requires an origin. Everything else just stems from it.

[Thurbane]

If all this was done by mortal humans, albeit humans who in some aspects rivaled some gods, how could Pandorym be expected to be vastly more powerful than all the gods when all the gods destroyed the Imaskar?

Gods > Imaskar > Pandorym > Gods > Imaskar > Pandorym etc...

Well, like I asked earlier: is it conceivable that having its psyche and body separated, and/or being in our reality, allowed it to evolve greater powers than it had originally? Or does that not fit with the narrative of Pandorym's fluff and the novel?

[Feantar]

Minor contention... Pandorym can kill 'gods'. Ao is GOD, in the capital "G" "O" "D" meaning of the word. I think, at best, Pandorym might cause Ao a slight bit of difficulty. Even in my creation myths for the various campaigns that I've run, there is a difference between gods and the Creator (originator, whatever you want to call it). The deities that mortals call 'gods' are finite beings that just possess immense levels of power. The Creator 'deity' is greater than the sum of the parts of the universe it spawned, and is 'infinite' as far as that universe is concerned. There might be greater infinities out beyond the scope of the universe, but Pandorym was summoned, bound and split by beings that were finite. It won't be able to do anything to Ao.

Deities and demigods seems to imply that the only special thing about overdeities is that they never need worship and that, in some cases, they have influence over who else gets to be a deity. I understand the thematic implications of being the demiurge(Creator), but even if that gives him a more special position than "overdeity" it still doesn't completely apply here. My logic is as follows. A demiurge is lord of all they have created. If they have created all of existence, then they have absolute power. Otherwise, they have absolute power over the things they have created. Pandorym is from outside of Realmspace, and as such, not under AO's "demiurge superpower" umbrella. As such, Ao's power would be like a very powerful deity to it, and not as it's creator.

That being said, since Pandorym seems to "divorce" gods from their followers first, and Ao doesn't care about followers, I would assume he would be much more dangerous to it than gods who are follower dependent.


All gods in Realmspace either arose ex nihilo (Selûne and Shar), were created as a side effect of their shared creation or the War of Light and Darkness (starting with Chauntea and ending with Mystryl), entered the crystal sphere at some point, or ascended to (or were gifted) divinity with the help of an existing deity. While someone may not know the origins of a particular god, those are all the possible options for all of them.

Wasn't there some spontaneous deity generation too? As in, nothing ascended, but people believed that there was, say, a man who builds the mountains named Bob the Builder, and the being manifested? Silly example aside, I am struggling to remember if the realms had any such occurrences.

[Thurbane]

Possibly a stupid question, but does Ao have stats anywhere? Just checked F&P, couldn't see one?

Isn't the general rule if that if something doesn't have stats it can't be killed?

If Ao is omniscient (which I assume he would be), could he not destroy the parts of Pandorym before they were re-joined? Or at the very least, destroy the beings that were attempting the re-unification of Pandorym's parts?

On a side note, does the concept of over-deities predate Ao and the like?

I know Marvel, for instance, had Those Who Sit Above in Shadow

https://i.imgur.com/wANgDzS.jpg

If this strays too far into discussion real world religion, please ignore.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

My problem with the whole idea is that it was humans, albeit some of the most powerful humans to ever walk Toril, that somehow found Pandorym and either contacted it and negotiated with it, or brute forced it into submission by summoning and splitting it into body and mind.

If all this was done by mortal humans, albeit humans who in some aspects rivaled some gods, how could Pandorym be expected to be vastly more powerful than all the gods when all the gods destroyed the Imaskar?

Karsus was also a mere mortal human, albeit one of the most powerful humans to ever walk Toril, and he invented a 13th-level spell that let him co-opt the divinity of any deity of his choice to temporarily become a god. Heck, on a smaller scale, a 15th-level wizard is capable of casting greater planar binding in order to call up and bind a creature with 18 HD, an 11th-level cleric is capable of turning an undead with 15 HD, a 1-HD kobold is capable of killing a 5th-level fighter under the right circumstances...and a teeny tiny germ is capable of killing most living creatures that crit-fail their Fort saves regardless of their putative power levels.

Having the ability to trick, cajole, force, or otherwise exert influence over something more powerful than youself via magic doesn't mean that that thing is "weaker than you" or that you're "stronger than it" in some general hierarchical sense, it means that you were able to exert that influence over that being using that method in those circumstances, nothing more and nothing less.

Pandorym could have a unique weakness to calling spells in general (or the very planar-focused Imaskari tradition in particular) but otherwise metaphorically outmass the gods, there could have been some grand planar conjunction during which any ol' caster could have summoned and bound Pandorym but outside of which it's utterly immune to control or influence, the gods could have a unique weakness to Pandorym but otherwise outclass any other Elder Evil, there could be a loophole in the Divine Compact rendering the gods vulnerable to Pandorym for reasons completely orthogonal to its own personal powers, or who knows what else.


My logic is as follows. A demiurge is lord of all they have created. If they have created all of existence, then they have absolute power. Otherwise, they have absolute power over the things they have created. Pandorym is from outside of Realmspace, and as such, not under AO's "demiurge superpower" umbrella. As such, Ao's power would be like a very powerful deity to it, and not as it's creator.

Being an overdeity has nothing to do with what Ao has or has not created, but rather with his (crystal) sphere of influence. Anything inside Realmspace is subject to his dominion whether or not he created it or was at the start of the causal chain that created it, and anything that wants to enter Realmspace from outside--or anything within Realmspace that wants to block the entrance of someone(s) or something(s)--must have his explicit or tacit permission to do so. Anything outside of Realmspace, however, is beyond Ao's reach.

It's much like how the Lady of Pain is essentially all-powerful within Sigil (though she does also have far-reaching power beyond Sigil, as she's not an overdeity) or how regular ol' gods are much more powerful within their divine realms than interloping beings are inside their realms or that they themselves are outside their realms.


Wasn't there some spontaneous deity generation too? As in, nothing ascended, but people believed that there was, say, a man who builds the mountains named Bob the Builder, and the being manifested? Silly example aside, I am struggling to remember if the realms had any such occurrences.

Nope, every new deity was either created by/split off of/etc. an existing one or was a mortal who had divine sponsorship of (or stole a chunk of portfolio from) an existing deity. The closest the Realms has to ascension-without-existing-gods is Velsharoon, who carried out an unspecified arcane ritual to ascend to godhood, but that ritual was written by Talos and carried with it his implicit sponsorship of anyone who used it (to the point that after ascending Velsharoon had to ask Azuth to become his sponsor/patron instead to get out from under Talos's thumb).


Possibly a stupid question, but does Ao have stats anywhere? Just checked F&P, couldn't see one?

Overdeities don't have stats, with the exception that per D&DG any being considered to be an overdeity has at least 21 divine ranks by definition.


If Ao is omniscient (which I assume he would be), could he not destroy the parts of Pandorym before they were re-joined? Or at the very least, destroy the beings that were attempting the re-unification of Pandorym's parts?

Maybe. When Cyric did his "push for Cyricite monotheism" plan in the Avatar Trilogy, he challenged Ao in front of the other gods and wasn't immediately slapped down for it, implying that there are limitations on Ao's power. Whether that would prevent him from interfering with Pandorym or mortals involved with him is an open question.


On a side note, does the concept of over-deities predate Ao and the like?

As far as overdeities in D&D settings specifically, Ao showed up in the Avatar Trilogy, published in 1989, but Dragonlance's High God definitely showed up as early as 1987 in DragonLance Adventures and may have shown up sometime before that.

Before that, well, I can definitely say that concept doesn't originate in real-world religion (which is good 'cause I couldn't cite stuff about it if it did), but beyond that you'd have to search through a metric ton of fiction to try to find the actual origins of the idea.

[Khedrac]

On a side note, does the concept of over-deities predate Ao and the like?

As far as overdeities in D&D settings specifically, Ao showed up in the Avatar Trilogy, published in 1989, but Dragonlance's High God definitely showed up as early as 1987 in DragonLance Adventures and may have shown up sometime before that.
You also have the 1986 Immortals (Gold Box) rules for BECMI D&D which introduced the "Great Old Ones" who sat above the Immortals, but like them cannot reproduce and thus need Immortals to ascend to join them. The tiny section on them ends by stating that although they consider themselves supreme, who is to say that there is not another set over them as they are over the immortals...

Below is one idea for how Pandorym might function - it is completely non-canon.
Once whole, Pandorym might be able to spread his influence through the Crystal Sphere locating and corrupting all the strings of worship connecting deities to their believers. When fully spread he can then feed - corrupting and destroying the gods through the faith that sustains them. Deities that realise what is happening fast enough, and that have enough followers in other spheres, might be able to cut off their connection with Realspace and save themselves, but it would end the worshop of deities in Realmspace and their power to act there.
As for Lord Ao, that's an interesting question - pre-Time of Troubles he wasn't worshipped so it would definitely not affect him, after? Well he doesn't need worship so he should be able to cut any links without affecting his power; I would think he's beyond Pandorym's capabilities but this is just me postulating possibilities.

Anyway this method doesn't affect deities not present in the sphere as Pandorym never leaves the prime plane.

[Melcar]

Karsus was also a mere mortal human, albeit one of the most powerful humans to ever walk Toril, and he invented a 13th-level spell that let him co-opt the divinity of any deity of his choice to temporarily become a god. Heck, on a smaller scale, a 15th-level wizard is capable of casting greater planar binding in order to call up and bind a creature with 18 HD, an 11th-level cleric is capable of turning an undead with 15 HD, a 1-HD kobold is capable of killing a 5th-level fighter under the right circumstances...and a teeny tiny germ is capable of killing most living creatures that crit-fail their Fort saves regardless of their putative power levels.

Having the ability to trick, cajole, force, or otherwise exert influence over something more powerful than youself via magic doesn't mean that that thing is "weaker than you" or that you're "stronger than it" in some general hierarchical sense, it means that you were able to exert that influence over that being using that method in those circumstances, nothing more and nothing less.

Pandorym could have a unique weakness to calling spells in general (or the very planar-focused Imaskari tradition in particular) but otherwise metaphorically outmass the gods, there could have been some grand planar conjunction during which any ol' caster could have summoned and bound Pandorym but outside of which it's utterly immune to control or influence, the gods could have a unique weakness to Pandorym but otherwise outclass any other Elder Evil, there could be a loophole in the Divine Compact rendering the gods vulnerable to Pandorym for reasons completely orthogonal to its own personal powers, or who knows what else.

Karsus' Avatar was level 12 spell, and even though the spell worked, he basically dies instantly because neither his body or mind could take the influx of power... But I agree that we don't actually know how they did it, or how they even found that creature in the first place...


Being an overdeity has nothing to do with what Ao has or has not created, but rather with his (crystal) sphere of influence. Anything inside Realmspace is subject to his dominion whether or not he created it or was at the start of the causal chain that created it, and anything that wants to enter Realmspace from outside--or anything within Realmspace that wants to block the entrance of someone(s) or something(s)--must have his explicit or tacit permission to do so. Anything outside of Realmspace, however, is beyond Ao's reach.

I would agree that everything that happens inside his crystal sphere is subject to his will... I would also think he would be omniscient, but definitely not caring about very much other than the order of things, precisely that of the gods... how that whole thing works. Because he basically interferes with nothing accept things that affect the order of the gods. Like the death of some gods... Cyric killing Mystra as an example, however when Mystra dies from attempting to reenter the "heavens" AO apparently didn't care when Helm destroyed her in avatar form. Therefore I would think that if Pandorym was released he would not allow it to destroy all of them... not his crystal sphere.



It's much like how the Lady of Pain is essentially all-powerful within Sigil (though she does also have far-reaching power beyond Sigil, as she's not an overdeity) or how regular ol' gods are much more powerful within their divine realms than interloping beings are inside their realms or that they themselves are outside their realms.

Yeah... in the end of Die Vecna Die, she "... attempts to shore up the sum of all creation, also called superspace."

[PairO'Dice Lost]

You also have the 1986 Immortals (Gold Box) rules for BECMI D&D which introduced the "Great Old Ones" who sat above the Immortals, but like them cannot reproduce and thus need Immortals to ascend to join them. The tiny section on them ends by stating that although they consider themselves supreme, who is to say that there is not another set over them as they are over the immortals...

I wouldn't count those as inspirations, personally, since Overdeities aren't quite the same as Great Old Ones. Of all the various divine hierarchies in D&D, fiction, mythology, and other sources, two things really distinguish overdeities from other kinds of gods:

1) They are qualitatively different from normal gods--that is, a mortal can become a god and work their way up to greater deity (in theory) or a god can lose its divinity, but there's really no way for a god to get "promoted" to overdeity or for an overdeity to lose its divinity, as far as we know.
2) Overdeities don't care about worship and don't interact with would-be worshipers in any way, and in most cases aren't even known to mortals at all.

There are plenty of examples in various sources of gods who meet 1 but not 2 (e.g. primordial creator deities from which all other gods flow but that are known to and worshiped by mortals), and 2 but not 1 (e.g. Great Old Ones who don't care about mortals much if at all but are joined by promoted Immortals all the time), but I don't know of any precedents for Overdeities that hit both 1 and 2.


Karsus' Avatar was level 12 spell, and even though the spell worked, he basically dies instantly because neither his body or mind could take the influx of power... But I agree that we don't actually know how they did it, or how they even found that creature in the first place...

Yep, 12th not 13th, that was a typo. But importantly, the reason he died was not because his body and mind couldn't handle the power of a god, but rather because he couldn't handle being Mystryl specifically:


Karsus instantly realized the horrible mistake he had made: He stole the power from the one god he shouldn’t have. Mystryl’s position called for one of the aspects of her psyche to constantly rework the weave of magic—the weave that Netheril and its glut of magic and the phaerimm with their magic drain spells constantly threatened to unravel. When Mystryl lost her ability to keep the weave of essential magic (magic in its purest unschooled and unfielded form) intact, the inundation of magic surged and fluctuated, and the effects of all things magical doubled for a time—a short time.

Had he targeted any other god than the one whose portfolio (A) required constant and precise maintenance at all times using her millennia of experience to avoid kersploding herself because "magic" and "her body" were the same thing and (B) was actively powering the spell he was using to borrow her divinity, he would most likely have been perfectly fine.


I would agree that everything that happens inside his crystal sphere is subject to his will... I would also think he would be omniscient,

Considering the trouble he had against Cyric, who was "merely" an upstart god trying to beef himself up with a lot of stolen worship, I wouldn't bet on him being omni-anything regarding other very powerful beings like a boosted Cyric or, perhaps, Pandorym. Which isn't to say that he definitely couldn't stop Pandorym with a wave of his metaphorical hand, just that both entities have a special degree of power relative to "normal" gods and we don't have the data to say for sure either way.

[Raishoiken]

ah yes, powerscaling overdeities and outer-entities. This is a super interesting interaction i wish we could tap authors for insight

[ngilop]

I don't have much of the lore stuck in my noggin quite yet, but the fact that space outside of the spheres renders deific powers useless also implies things more powerful than even the "overdeities" like ao.

But also.... whats the sauce on Ao having a superior?? That's some juicy stuff right there

Even though Troy denning made a twitter post about it (in a yes, but no....but yes kinda way). It was very heavily implied that the being AO talked to was the Dungeon Master. (i.e you)