Telekinetic - My new favorite feat?

[Sherlockpwns]

So I've been tinkering with various battlefield control builds, specifically those that use movement. You've got Crusher and Swarmkeeper and the old classic repelling blast, just to name a few... and Telekinetic.

A few weeks ago some of you may recall a bit ago I asked about spells that include this statement:
"When it enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there." Just to make sure I understood that this really DOES mean once per turn and not per round.

These spells include Cloud of Daggers, Wall of Fire, Spirit Guardians... the list is actually pretty massive and one thing you'll find is MOST of these spells are actually quite good. However most (unless specified otherwise like Wall of Fire) do not trigger on cast or if you move the area to them (e.g. Spirit Guardians or Moonbeam).

Some of you may see exactly where this is going, but as far as I can tell (besides maybe some magic items?) - Telekinetic is the ONLY way to move an opponent on the same turn you cast a spell.

This effectively turns an "auto-trigger at start of turn" spell into a save or suck spell. Granted, that is NOT always going to be a good thing for everything you fight, but the basic setup is as simple as

Cast cloud of daggers 5ft from your target. Push them into it. (Str save vs. ability raised DC)

If you succeed you effectively doubled the damage of the spell and if you fail, you get no immediate benefit.

This all works even better if one or more person in your group is good at grappling, as you can "re-blender" them on subsequent turns and/or if you are a melee warcaster and can BB them if they try to leave.

I really underrated this feat until recently. The mage hand is cute and nice to have, handy and full of flavor, but not many people would consider it the meat of the feat. The +1 stat is always good to have. But the opportunity to go all or nothing on a spell? That's massive. Plus the ability to bonus action save your teammates from grapples, opportunity attacks, or all kinds of stuff is just icing on the cake.

In short, this feat has it all. At the cost of 1 stat point vs a standard +2, you gain a flavorful and useful spell ability, the utility of protecting allies, and the offensive potential of doubling your damage. I say, good work WoTC for creating a feat that is right where I'd want it balance-wise that impacts how you play a character. Nobody gives enough credit to the good parts of the newer books :D.

[LudicSavant]

Some of you may see exactly where this is going, but as far as I can tell (besides maybe some magic items?) - Telekinetic is the ONLY way to move an opponent on the same turn you cast a spell.

There are some other ways to do it. But Telekinetic is a good way, and a top tier half-feat.

[nickl_2000]

I can't tell you how many builds I have running around in my head that involve this feat. It's a great little tool that give two at will abilities and a bonus to a casting stat.

[Sherlockpwns]

There are some other ways to do it. But Telekinetic is a good way, and a top tier half-feat.

In a single turn without action surge? Tell me your secrets master! :D

[RogueJK]

Telekinetic is the ONLY way to move an opponent on the same turn you cast a spell.

As noted, Telekinetic is a superb option, but there are other ways to do this, such as:

Bonus Action Quickened Spell + Repelling Eldritch Blast or Gust cantrip

Bonus Action Quickened Spell + Shove or Crusher Attack(s)

Fighter 2/Caster X using Action Surge for two Actions in their turn

Stars Druid 2/Swarmkeeper Ranger 3 Cast A Spell Action + Bonus Action Archer Form attack with Gathered Swarm shove effect


And if you include only casting Cantrips (such as Create Bonfire), then you can add:

Eldritch Knight Cantrip + Bonus Action Attack Shove or Bonus Action Crusher Attack

Bladesinger Cantrip + Extra Attack Shove or Crusher Attack

[Sherlockpwns]

As noted, Telekinetic is a superb option, but there are other ways to do this, such as:

Bonus Action Quickened Spell + Repelling Eldritch Blast or Gust cantrip

Bonus Action Quickened Spell + Shove or Crusher Attack(s)

Fighter 2/Caster X using Action Surge for two Actions in their turn

Stars Druid 2/Swarmkeeper Ranger 3 Cast Spell Action + Bonus Action Archer Form attack with Gathered Swarm shove effect


And if you include Cantrips (such as Create Bonfire) as casting a spell, then you can add:

Eldritch Knight Cantrip + Bonus Action Attack Shove or Bonus Action Crusher Attack

Bladesinger Cantrip + Extra Attack Shove or Crusher Attack

OOh, very nice. The cantrip options don't work with this (Bonfire doesn't trigger on entry to the effect).

For whatever reason I hadn't thought of the reverse, using quicken to fast-cast a spell and shove someone into it (as you say, via blast or other means).

The Stars Druid + Swarm Ranger is certainly an interesting combo, though neither Druids nor Rangers get as-good "enter" effect spells. Moonbeam is ok, very slightly more damage if they fail their save vs. cloud of blades, but far less if they save. Limited to two per rest though, but absolutely qualifies.

[Justin Sane]

The Stars Druid + Swarm Ranger is certainly an interesting combo, though neither Druids nor Rangers get as-good "enter" effect spells.On the other hand, Spike Growth.

[RogueJK]

(Bonfire doesn't trigger on entry to the effect).

Sure it does. It's just not automatic damage, since it allows a save to avoid. But that save-or-damage is still triggered immediately when someone is shoved into the bonfire's area. Bold emphasis mine:

"Any creature in the bonfire’s space when you cast the spell must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 fire damage. A creature must also make the saving throw when it moves into the bonfire’s space for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there."


The Stars Druid + Swarm Ranger is certainly an interesting combo, though neither Druids nor Rangers get as-good "enter" effect spells. Moonbeam is ok

Spike Growth is a Ranger/Druid Level 2 spell. 2d4 damage per 5' of movement inside the area. So you use your Action to cast Spike Growth on top of them, and then use your Bonus Action to shove them 15' using Gathered Swarm for 6d4 no-save damage in addition to the Archer Form's 1d8+WISMOD, all in one turn.

On their turn, they can then move through the Spike Growth area and take further damage per 5' of movement, or stay put and maybe make ranged attacks. Then on your turn again, you can continue to shove them 15' again for another 6d4 damage, plus whatever attacks are being used to deliver the Gathered Swarm shove.


And Druids also get Wall of Fire.

[MaxWilson]

As noted, Telekinetic is a superb option, but there are other ways to do this, such as:

Bonus Action Quickened Spell + Repelling Eldritch Blast or Gust cantrip

Bonus Action Quickened Spell + Shove or Crusher Attack(s)

Fighter 2/Caster X using Action Surge for two Actions in their turn

Stars Druid 2/Swarmkeeper Ranger 3 Cast A Spell Action + Bonus Action Archer Form attack with Gathered Swarm shove effect


And if you include only casting Cantrips (such as Create Bonfire), then you can add:

Eldritch Knight Cantrip + Bonus Action Attack Shove or Bonus Action Crusher Attack

Bladesinger Cantrip + Extra Attack Shove or Crusher Attack

Add to the list: Ally with a readied Shove action.

For Necromancers with zombies, make that a bunch of readied actions.

[TheMango55]

Seems like this could be a gamble though.

If you cast for example wall of flame, they take the damage from it once, at the start of their turn.

If you cast wall of flame first where they are 5 feet out of range and use telekinetic to move them in range they take damage twice, once immediately and once at the start of their turn.

However if they make the save on telekinetic then they aren’t in the area of the spell and they don’t take any damage.

[Kuulvheysoon]

As noted, Telekinetic is a superb option, but there are other ways to do this, such as:

Bonus Action Quickened Spell + Repelling Eldritch Blast or Gust cantrip

Bonus Action Quickened Spell + Shove or Crusher Attack(s)

Fighter 2/Caster X using Action Surge for two Actions in their turn

Stars Druid 2/Swarmkeeper Ranger 3 Cast A Spell Action + Bonus Action Archer Form attack with Gathered Swarm shove effect


And if you include only casting Cantrips (such as Create Bonfire), then you can add:

Eldritch Knight Cantrip + Bonus Action Attack Shove or Bonus Action Crusher Attack

Bladesinger Cantrip + Extra Attack Shove or Crusher Attack

Don't forget Shield MAster feat BA Shove.

[RogueJK]

Don't forget Shield MAster feat BA Shove.

Requires the Attack action. Doesn't work with the Cast A Spell action.

[Chugger]

All this focus on making a character who casts a spell and then shoves something into it all in one turn - well, okay.

But a lot of these things you cast on a target, and then they start their turn in it - and it goes off. They move out, and that's when you wanna push em back in.

Maybe I'm not understanding some of the posts I read up there.

Also, if 2 players can work together on this, it would likely be much more effective overall. You don't have to pick a certain feat if your warlock friend can just use EB + invocation to shove the target back into the thing - i.e. the warlock is picking that, anyway - and this frees you up to pick what may very well be a _better_ feat for you (than tk). There are so many ways to move creatures in a battle - many characters are naturally good at grappling or even shoving (w/out taking a feat or something like that), for example.

This potentially gets much more powerful and useful when players team up and work together. I.e. druid casts Spike Growth and Warlock EB's target back into it. Warlock casts HoH and raging barb shoves the NPC who just staggered out of it back into it. And so on.

[Kane0]

One of my characters waiting to be played is a clockwork sorc with this feat and nothing but telekinesis spells (some reflavored), so yeah im definitely looking forward to that

[Sherlockpwns]

All this focus on making a character who casts a spell and then shoves something into it all in one turn - well, okay.

But a lot of these things you cast on a target, and then they start their turn in it - and it goes off. They move out, and that's when you wanna push em back in.

Maybe I'm not understanding some of the posts I read up there.

Also, if 2 players can work together on this, it would likely be much more effective overall. You don't have to pick a certain feat if your warlock friend can just use EB + invocation to shove the target back into the thing - i.e. the warlock is picking that, anyway - and this frees you up to pick what may very well be a _better_ feat for you (than tk). There are so many ways to move creatures in a battle - many characters are naturally good at grappling or even shoving (w/out taking a feat or something like that), for example.

This potentially gets much more powerful and useful when players team up and work together. I.e. druid casts Spike Growth and Warlock EB's target back into it. Warlock casts HoH and raging barb shoves the NPC who just staggered out of it back into it. And so on.

The short version of what you are missing is if you cast, say, cloud of daggers you have to wait until their turn to do damage. So you cast, they go, you do 4d4 dmg before they move. But if you cast behind them and shove into it you do 4d4 damage immediately and another 4d4 on their turn. And yes, all these abilities work best if you do it in tandem. If you push the target into the blades your fighter can grab them, move them out, move them back in for another 4d4, rinse and repeat until sliced.

For all the spike growth folks, I don’t have anything against it, but it’s not as reliable. Lets assume it’s the Druid swarmkeeper above. So you have to cast spike growth and then hit an attack and ALSO have them fail a save to do 6d4 damage + the attack dmg. And you can’t do so until level 6? You’d need 3 Druid and 3 ranger. Any bard, wiz, sorc, or warlock can do a cloud of daggers version with just 1 save and by level 6 you’re talking about 12d4 damage if it lands. Similarly as you level the spike growth doesn’t gain any extra damage, while cloud gains power every spell level.

Don’t get me wrong there’s a ton of fun ways to make spike growth work and it has a lot of extra utility and a much larger area. There’s nothing at all wrong with the swarmkeeper stars combo. I have a similar character I want to play that does the swarmkeeper + Dao warlock combo, which can blast someone up to 40ft at level 6. That’s some spicy spike growth damage potential. But to get it to work in one turn you’ve got 3 multi-classes, with the third being either fighter for surge or more likely sorcerer for quicken. That means the soonest you could one turn rip someone 40ft through spike growth is level 8. Anyway, that idea may not really want telekinesis because your bonus action is used to cast the quickened spell. It’s absolutely an awesome use of a level 2 slot and 2 sorc points though.

Anyway, nuff said on that!

[Toadkiller]

Had a lot of fun with this feat the other day. We were in a tight spot with bad guys shooting at us from the edge of a cliff. Telekinesis to pull them off to their doom. As I recall I got two of them, not bad for a couple of bonus actions.

Very situational of course. But I have found quite a few situations where moving either friends or foes was useful. It really has been fun. I’ve used it with booming blade to push them away from targets. But this is a good addition. Thanks for the post!

[Chronos]

So what exactly does the feat do as its third bullet point? Move an enemy towards or away from you whenever you cast a spell, or something like that?

[stoutstien]

So what exactly does the feat do as its third bullet point? Move an enemy towards or away from you whenever you cast a spell, or something like that?

Bonus action shove 30 ft range with a strength ST based on your spell DC (your choice when you pick up feat). On fail you can move target 5 ft away or towards you. Has added line that a Target can willing fail save.

[Chronos]

And can you just use that at will, or is it conditional on how you use your action, or a limited number of times per day, or something? A bonus-action forced movement is REALLY powerful.

[quindraco]

And can you just use that at will, or is it conditional on how you use your action, or a limited number of times per day, or something? A bonus-action forced movement is REALLY powerful.

As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically
shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of
you. When you do so, the target must succeed on
a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency
bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased
by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward you or away
from you. A creature can willingly fail this save.


The primary limitation is how constrained the movement direction is - you can't push laterally - and hence part of the power level is your GM deciding what "toward" and "away" mean, in terms of diagonal and vertical shoves. Regardless, it's unquestionably excellent, especially as a quarter feat (this is a half feat, and the other quarter is subtle invisible mage hand).

[Sherlockpwns]

As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically
shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of
you. When you do so, the target must succeed on
a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency
bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased
by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward you or away
from you. A creature can willingly fail this save.


The primary limitation is how constrained the movement direction is - you can't push laterally - and hence part of the power level is your GM deciding what "toward" and "away" mean, in terms of diagonal and vertical shoves. Regardless, it's unquestionably excellent, especially as a quarter feat (this is a half feat, and the other quarter is subtle invisible mage hand).

Yeah direct lateral movement is often up for debate, but diagonal movement may also be, depending on the DM. So, depending on the DM this means you can basically always move the target in 2 directions, easily arguable in 6, and "maybe" in all 8. Ironically Crusher does not have this "toward and away" restriction.

[stoutstien]

And can you just use that at will, or is it conditional on how you use your action, or a limited number of times per day, or something? A bonus-action forced movement is REALLY powerful.
It's definitely a strong half feat but it is competing against the new touched feats which are also half ones along the old guard of resilient:X and observant.

It's also saving throw base instead of an ability challenge like the shield Master shove so you can't do the standard expertise +++ skill boost strategies.

Overall it's a very good feat but there really wasn't a lot of competition for classes that wanted to focus on their casting modifier first.

[Derpldorf]

I can personally attest that it was the best 4lvl ASI I have ever taken for my Arcane Trickster, it really supercharged an already excellent feature.

[Cikomyr2]

It's easier to move allies out of your AOE than move your opponents into the AOe

I do use Telekinetic on a warlock with Sickening Radiance, it's pretty nice. Although your teammates might start to think you play chess with them

[Emongnome777]

My DM let me retcon getting telekinesis for my (at the time) 9th level wizard in place of +2 Int at 8th (will take Fey Touched at 12th). I love it as a wizard as it gives me something to do with my bonus action as often as not. I've used it to move allies into flanking (we use the DMG alternate rule), move the bow ranger out of melee, push a creature out of my melee range, move enemies into spell effect areas, etc. It's been fun. The mage hand hasn't been used, but it's neat to have.

[MrStabby]

I found it great on both a ranger and a warlock for the same reason. As a ranged character having a bonus action that can get an enemy out of your face and eliminate that disadvantage, obviate the need for a disengage and leave your action free to shoot/blast something. If it failed, you still have your action open as well.

The warlock had a fairly uncongested bonus action so was able to a) make good use of the cha boost and b) was able to use it almost every turn for some nice positioning tricks.

You don't need specific gimmics for it to be great as it is so broadly useful. Helping allies disengage, closing the gap so enemies can be reached, dropping a fireball but moving enemies in/allies out of its range. Even just hitting an enemy with booming blade then shoving them such that no creature is within range for them is strong enough.

[Cikomyr2]

One nice abuse of the BA Telekinetic shove is that if you move an ally out of a grappling opponents reach, you automatically break the grapple.

It came very handy when our team was fighting spiders who loved to web us. I was tearing party members out of the webs every round.

[Chugger]

The short version of what you are missing is if you cast, say, cloud of daggers you have to wait until their turn to do damage. So you cast, they go, you do 4d4 dmg before they move. But if you cast behind them and shove into it you do 4d4 damage immediately and another 4d4 on their turn. And yes, all these abilities work best if you do it in tandem. If you push the target into the blades your fighter can grab them, move them out, move them back in for another 4d4, rinse and repeat until sliced.

For all the spike growth folks, I donÂ’t have anything against it, but itÂ’s not as reliable. Lets assume itÂ’s the Druid swarmkeeper above. So you have to cast spike growth and then hit an attack and ALSO have them fail a save to do 6d4 damage + the attack dmg. And you canÂ’t do so until level 6? YouÂ’d need 3 Druid and 3 ranger. Any bard, wiz, sorc, or warlock can do a cloud of daggers version with just 1 save and by level 6 youÂ’re talking about 12d4 damage if it lands. Similarly as you level the spike growth doesnÂ’t gain any extra damage, while cloud gains power every spell level.

DonÂ’t get me wrong thereÂ’s a ton of fun ways to make spike growth work and it has a lot of extra utility and a much larger area. ThereÂ’s nothing at all wrong with the swarmkeeper stars combo. I have a similar character I want to play that does the swarmkeeper + Dao warlock combo, which can blast someone up to 40ft at level 6. ThatÂ’s some spicy spike growth damage potential. But to get it to work in one turn youÂ’ve got 3 multi-classes, with the third being either fighter for surge or more likely sorcerer for quicken. That means the soonest you could one turn rip someone 40ft through spike growth is level 8. Anyway, that idea may not really want telekinesis because your bonus action is used to cast the quickened spell. ItÂ’s absolutely an awesome use of a level 2 slot and 2 sorc points though.

Anyway, nuff said on that!

So, you cast cloud of daggers behind the target and use Telekinetic to push them into it - and they make their Strength ST - many monsters are very strong. That's reliable? Really? That sounds like a formula for disappointment, if you ask me.

I think you're cherry-picking things I said without understanding my argument. I'm also trying to get people to see that there are other ways to make this concept work. Sometimes, when there are two characters in the party who work together to do this (one casts a spell that creates an effect, the other pushes things into it), it's actually better because of the thing that you are entirely missing: you can pick a better feat or spell. Yes, there are approaches where two or more chars working together = even more investment - or it takes too long to make happen - or other bad things. But there are so so SO many instances where it just flows. Yeah, initiative order can sometimes mess it up - but usually it doesn't. A lot of conc effect spells do their damage when the NPC starts their turn in it. Last turn they just got out of it, but someone who goes after them puts them back in - and they get that damage again, and again if the fight keeps going. It's very effective. Not only does it damage them, but a lot of these spells create difficult terrain or have other nasty features - so there is a control aspect.

Anyway, sometimes when you pick things to pull off a trick by yourself, you end up far weaker than if you'd worked w/ a party member, instead - and still pull off the same basic trick - but now you are more versatile and powerful in other situations - cuz you have a better feat or spell or skill for those. Think about it.

Spike Growth. So you have to "hit an attack??" Huh? What are you talking about, please?

If you mean dragging an NPC through spike growth, okay, but spike growth works fine without that. I've played a lot of 5e, and I've never met a DM who allows that or who lets you feel good doing that - if you make a Tabaxi monk/bard build or maybe some barb or w/e - to drag things 80 or 120 or 200 feet thru spike growth - nope- DM is having nothing to do w that.

I'm talking about regular old spike growth - the NPCs come out of it and then get pushed back in. That's all. I've never met a DM who disallows that. It's the dragging them eight miles through spike growth (hyperbole) that they shut down, in my experience (again, every single instance, every single time).

Also, why are we focusing on spike growth? There's also web, wall of fire, wall of thorns, hunger or hadar- everard's black tentacles - and so on. I think we're talking past each other here. I'm trying to better explain my take on this. I hope you're understanding me now and that it helps you. If not, good luck to you all the same.

[Chugger]

It's definitely a strong half feat but it is competing against the new touched feats which are also half ones along the old guard of resilient:X and observant.

It's also saving throw base instead of an ability challenge like the shield Master shove so you can't do the standard expertise +++ skill boost strategies.

Overall it's a very good feat but there really wasn't a lot of competition for classes that wanted to focus on their casting modifier first.

Yep. I doubt I'll ever take Telekinetic, cuz I'd rather take some other feat that, for the way I play, offers me more. Even warcaster or resilient con imho are better. I'd rather keep concentration when I cast a spell - or one of many other feats that I think offer more. Feats cost - picking one means you can't take another for 4 more levels - or no main-stat boosting. In a normal game we can't just pick feats willy nilly, so yes, we very much have to consider what we're passing up.

That Str ST on Telekinetic is a drag - lots of monsters are strong. Where I've seen Telekinetic used best is moving an archer or EB-caster away from the monster that got in their face, so that person can take a normal turn and just shoot (and not have to misty step - or disengage - or cast Zephyr Strike - or w/w to get away - and even if it's a rogue, that frees the rogue to do something else w/ the cunning action, maybe something better).

[Kane0]

Also, why are we focusing on spike growth? There's also web, wall of fire, wall of thorns, hunger or hadar- everard's black tentacles - and so on.

As DM of a warlock that has access to hunger of hadar, synapctic static and more I second this, repelling blast does the same job but this feat is great for others like wiz, sorc, cleric druid that want to do the same trick with zone and aoe spells.

[Cikomyr2]

By the way. You cannot provoke damage to an enemy by moving them in an AOE spell that does damage "when the enemy first moves in the zone"

NonVoluntary movement never triggers these. It's always based on voluntary movement or "start your turn". So you couldn't make someone suffer Cloud of Daggers twice in a round

[stoutstien]

By the way. You cannot provoke damage to an enemy by moving them in an AOE spell that does damage "when the enemy first moves in the zone"

NonVoluntary movement never triggers these. It's always based on voluntary movement or "start your turn". So you couldn't make someone suffer Cloud of Daggers twice in a round

CoD says the first time on "a" turn not specifically the creature's turn. Some spells don't even need a turn limit like spike growth. It is very spell dependent.

[Cikomyr2]

CoD says the first time on "a" turn not specifically the creature's turn. Some spells don't even need a turn limit like spike growth. It is very spell dependent.

Except the wording is the same for all spells:


A creature takes 4d4 slashing damage when it enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there.


and when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn

The key word is "when a creature enters". Not "when a creature position is changed to". "Enters" imply a willingness of movement to enter the zone. You can't make an opponent take damage by putting them in an active save effect that is dependant on them entering it. They'll take damage when they start their next turn.

The only exception is pushing someone off a ledge. Then they fall and take damage

[Chronos]

That's the rule for opportunity attacks, but I'm not aware of anything that says it applies here.

[Theodoxus]

The key word is "when a creature enters". Not "when a creature position is changed to". "Enters" imply a willingness of movement to enter the zone. You can't make an opponent take damage by putting them in an active save effect that is dependant on them entering it. They'll take damage when they start their next turn.

What? Enter implies no such thing. It's a word devoted to spacetime. It denotes movement and time. Would you say an asteroid entering earths' orbit did so willingly? You're adding additional phrasing to spells that aren't there. There are very specific phrases used in 5th Edition when something isn't supposed to happen (contrary to common sense - like shoving someone out of melee combat not provoking OAs), or Booming Blade specifying that the target must willingly move (not just enter another square) for the secondary damage to trigger.

It's a powerful ability to move someone off their turn into an ongoing effect. And prior to Telekinetic, was a bit more difficult, or required cooperation, to pull off. I don't think the author of this feat, nor the QA/QC folks took off turn movement into account, else this wouldn't be a half feat (and certainly not a half feat that grants one of three ASI options).

If I were concerned about using this feat, I'd probably either make it a full feat with just the MH and TK points, or keep it half but make the ASI only affect Intelligence. Or, I guess, keep it a half feat, but only allow TK to be a bonus action if used on a willing participant (which I think WotC assumed most players would use it for). Rewriting the bullet point to read something like:

As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically move one willing creature you can see within 30 feet of you 5 feet towards or away from you. Alternatively, you can take an Attack action to try to telekinetically shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. When you do so, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8+PB+ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet towards or away from you.

I think that wording allows it to be used as part of an extra attack, no? I'm ok with being able to try to move an enemy up to 4 times (or 4 enemies) as part of a Fighters extra attack...

[Cikomyr2]

Humph

In my Friday night games, we are 3 DM involved in that game and that has been our interpretation of the rules without us actually debating it. ****, I need to bring it up with them

Never mind then.

[Sherlockpwns]

Well @chugger I don't think we're likely to see eye to eye, but I'll try to explain what I am talking about.

Everything in D&D works better if there are two or more people working together. Not that anyone in my group ever does (lol). The combat application here is only one of many benefits, but it is the one that really tipped the scales for me on liking TK over many other half-feats.

Re: Spike growth- I am just talking about those who posted that this feat (and movement in general) works well with spike growth and the Stars Druid + Swarmkeeper combo. It does, but not as well as "on enter" effect spells simply because there are two rolls to make instead of one (attack hitting and save vs. movement from swarmkeeper).

Re: TK being underpowered compared to other feats- Sure, it's not THE most powerful combat feat. If all I cared about was dishing out DPS I'd just make nothing but xbow xpert sharpshooters. What I like about TK is that it feels well balanced, providing a wide variety of applications (and a stat point) for both parts of the feat. I am not saying it should be your #1 feat choice, though it sure could be. I certainly think its more fun than a standard ASI. Is it stronger than fey touched? I think that actually depends on how much you value misty step. If you're a squishy caster focused on ranged attacks, absolutely fey touched all the way. Otherwise, ymmv. Warcaster is what I would consider a cornerstone feat for many builds. It obviously takes priority in those cases. Resilient may be a 'better' half feat (I don't think it is, but if someone disagreed I wouldn't argue), but I think it's absolutely less fun. It falls into the same trap as tough, there's nothing wrong with tough or resilient... They're just dull. TK is interesting, and that is an opinion I ... apparently AM arguing :D.

Re: It not working on strong enemies- You're absolutely correct. Accept that it won't work every time, even against weak foes. Accept that against an ogre or giant or any NUMBER of strong monsters you simply won't use the shove for damage. Not every ability in your arsenal needs to apply to every situation, but I think there's potentially great fun in shoving some dexterous rogue or wimpy sorcerer into a spell. Statistically if you're fairly certain of the str of what you're fighting, it should help more than it hurts and give everyone a good laugh when it doesn't. What more can you ask for? :D

Re: Grapple and Spike Growth- I fully agree no sane DM allows this, as it is incredibly exploitable and not even difficult to do.

Also, I think my "What you're missing" may have come off as an attack on you, but it wasn't intended that way. I was sincerely trying to answer what was being missed; the opportunity to turn a guaranteed damage into save or suck for double damage. And yes, with a little teamwork, a lot more than that.

***

As for the several posts about what "on entering" means, as with all D&D just discuss with your DM. Every table I have played at has had the same basic agreement. First, these spells do not work if you move the effect TO the creature. E.g. moving a moonbeam onto a creature does not trigger effect. This is also backed by a Sage Advice post. However, moving a creature INTO the effect does trigger the damage, though only once per turn (not per round). This is basically backed by the fact the texts always say "first time on a turn" and not "first time in a round" or includes any following lines like "once per round."

That said I could easily see a DM ruling that this can and be exploited and will cause problems. If you had a whole party dedicated to moving enemies around it could cause the DM a lot of problems making encounters interesting and fun. I don't see it as an issue if just the caster and one other party member really focuses on it, but it's the DMs choice as always.


Anyway, long story short, please don't see this as some min/max exploit build. It's just a facet of TK I hadn't considered until recently, which moved it from something of a "interesting but not something I want to take" to "Oh, I really want to play a character that uses this!" It sure doesn't hurt that our table just lost a PC to a remorhaz and being able to break that grapple would have saved them... at least for another round. A little too late, RIP Aggie. :D

[Telwar]

Probably my Eberron Curse of Strahd game's most tactically competent fight made great use of Telekinetic. The DM has a house rule that for ASIs, you get 2 feats instead, and why YES they can be half-feats.

So, we're in one of the crypts in the Amber Temple, and a bunch of vampire spawn pop out. By this point, we'd learned, painfully, that the amber prisons could be damaged, releasing the prisoners, and we really didn't want to let that happen, again. My warforged Light Cleric popped out a circular wall of fire, and then the bard (in probably the most coherent thing he's done, ever) cast a major illusion of the ceiling caving in and shining in sunlight. I wound up tanking one end and the ranger tanked the other end. Meanwhile, the sorcerer and artificer sniped with ranged attacks, and then used Telekinetic to shove the spawn into the wall of fire. It was *glorious*.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Except the wording is the same for all spells:





The key word is "when a creature enters". Not "when a creature position is changed to". "Enters" imply a willingness of movement to enter the zone. You can't make an opponent take damage by putting them in an active save effect that is dependant on them entering it. They'll take damage when they start their next turn.

The only exception is pushing someone off a ledge. Then they fall and take damage
The designers have stated that yes forced movement into Moonbeam, Spiked Growth or Walls of Fire do cause damage. That’s not a bug it’s a feature to encourage team work.

“Our design intent for such spells is this: a creature enters the area of effect when the creature passes into it. Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count. If the creature is still in the area at the start of its turn, it is subjected to the area’s effect.
Entering such an area of effect needn’t be voluntary, unless a spell says otherwise.”

[Chronos]

The save is also irrelevant when targeting allies, which has all sorts of uses. Including, for instance, getting them out of these sorts of area effects before their turn starts. Or all of the other applications for battlefield positioning.