Finite resources for rogues/experts?

[Eric Diaz]

I'm working on a minimalist version of 5e with three classes: warrior, spellcaster, and expert. (If that sounds completely crazy to you, you can safely skip this thread)

I'm using something similar to "superiority dice" for warriors, and spell points for spellcasters.

But I'm a bit stuck with experts. Can you think of a finite resource for them? Every thing they have (Expertise, Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge) seems hard to convert to finite resources. Maybe give them "expertise points" for advantage in any skill they want? Or use them for defense instead? Any ideas?

Now, I'm not sure they need finite resources, but it would seem adequate with the other classes. In addition, I like the idea of getting a small numerical bump every level, but sneak attack only improves every other level. On the other hand, after Tasha, I'm considering if sneak attack is even needed for the expert (I think it is, but...).

I hope this makes sense to someone... (if you're interested, here is what I've got so far:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/05/minimalist-d-xi-three-classes.html)

Thank you!

[Greywander]

I remember coming up with a similar idea. It was a homebrew build-your-own class where you choose between Might, Cunning, or Mystery, AKA warrior, expert, and spellcaster. What I did for Cunning heroes was give them a modified version of Bardic Inspiration, but refluffed to "conspiracy dice" that they could spend to implement cunning plots and conspiracies. As you level up, you'd get new ways to use these conspiracy dice, starting with giving them to allies to add to a roll, to subtracting them from enemy rolls, and eventually to give enemies vulnerability (but only once per long rest). For some reason, I really liked flavor of subtracting from an enemy save and retroactively treating it as though you had implemented some kind of cunning plot, like they step in a trap or an essential piece of gear breaks due to being sabotaged. It seemed like a good way to feel like you were playing a smart character without needing to actually set such plans in motion ahead of time.

[quindraco]

I'd suggest something like Bardic Inspiration, especially if you incorporate, like most Bard subclasses do, greedy ways to spend them.

[Keravath]

If you are considering revamping then I think you also need to consider roles, objectives and the relevance of each class to the "pillars of play".

Consider combat - your warrior will have melee and ranged attacks likely several - your spellcaster will likely have single, multi-target and AoE spells that will make them relevant. However, a skill focused expert will likely have little or nothing to contribute in combat unless you design it appropriately. Even rogues in the current version of the game only have a single (albeit higher damage in some cases due to sneak attack) melee or ranged attack but sneak attack doesn't really keep them close to the warrior classes unless they can attack with advantage virtually every turn.

If you go with an "expert" class, without sneak attack - what will a player of that class contribute in a combat situation. Obviously, the class will dominate in a skills situation - which is also unfair to the warrior. Given a wide enough variety of spells, the spellcaster is likely to have something available for every scenario.

So .. I'd suggest looking at what each of your classes would be able to bring to the table for exploration, social, skill based, combat and other scenarios. As long as each has their own specialty and something they can do effectively in the other situations then you should be good.

As for mechanics, I would probably give the expert a baseline plus something like Luck points or Skill points that can be spent to obtain advantage or re-roll checks either only on skill checks or on any roll the character makes. This kind of general ability could be used by an expert to bolster their ability with skills, combat, exploration or whichever pillar they are currently engaging.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Moved to Homebrew.

[sayaijin]

Here's what I did:




In place of normal class/multiclass rules, each player picks two of the following categories - a primary and secondary trope or category.

Categories/Tropes:
1) Precision
2) Brute force
3) Arcane Magic
4) Natural Magic
5) Divine Magic

These categories are how the player answers the question, "How would your character overcome an obstacle?"

They gain "half" features from the primary category at levels 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17 and "half" features from the secondary category at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. Subclass features occur at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19 and ASI's occur at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

If they pick the same category twice, then they gain "full" features when they would have gained secondary features. All characters naturally have proficiency with light armor and simple weapons.



Level
1) Primary Feature 1
2) Secondary Feature 1
3) Subclass Feature
4) Feat/ASI
5) Primary Feature 2
6) Secondary Feature 2
7) Subclass Feature
8) Feat/ASI
9) Primary Feature 3
10) Secondary Feature 3
11) Subclass Feature
12) Feat/ASI
13) Primary Feature 4
14) Secondary Feature 4
15) Subclass Feature
16) Feat/ASI
17) Primary Feature 5
18) Secondary Feature 5
19) Subclass Feature
20) Epic Boon + Feat/ASI





Precision:
Half (Levels 1/2, 5/6, 9/10, 13/14, 17/18)
1) Extra skill proficiencies, Sneak Attack (d4)
2) Uncanny Dodge
3) Evasion
4) Proficiency in all saving throws
5) Can make one attack as part of Uncanny Dodge

Full (Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, 18)
1) Cunning Action, Expertise, Sneak Attack (d8)
2) Expertise
3) Extra Feat/ASI
4) Reliable Talent
5) Stroke of Luck (3x/rest)




Brute force
Half (Levels 1/2, 5/6, 9/10, 13/14, 17/18)
1) AC+*, martial weapons, move speed+
2) Additional Attack
3) Jump, Swim, Climb Speed+
4) Extra Feat/ASI
5) Stunning Strike (no ki required)

* E.g. Unarmored Defense / Armor Proficiency

Full(Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, 18)
1) Action Surge, Fighting Style
2) Extra Feat/ASI
3) Additional Attack
4) Extra Feat/ASI
5) Additional Attack



Magic: Players choosing magic have either half or full caster progression based on whether they take magic for one or both of their categories.
Taking two different magic sources gives half caster spell levels and full caster slots.


Magic (Arcane)
Half (Levels 1/2, 5/6, 9/10, 13/14, 17/18)
1) Spells known
2) Cantrip Formulas
3) Flash of Genius
4) Magic Item Adept
5) Magic Item Savant

Full (Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, 18)
1) Ritual Casting, Spell Book, Prepared Spells
2) Metamagic (x2)
3) Metamagic (x4)
4) Spell Mastery
5) Signature Spells



Magic (Divine)
Half (Levels 1/2, 5/6, 9/10, 13/14, 17/18)
1) Spells known, Lay on Hands
2) Aura of Protection
3) Aura of Courage
4) Cleansing Touch
5) Divine Resistance

Full (Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, 18)
1) Channel Divinity, Spells prepared
2) Blessed Strikes/Potent Cantrip
3) Divine Intervention
4) Destroy Undead
5) Divine Intervention Improvement



Magic (Nature)
Half (Levels 1/2, 5/6, 9/10, 13/14, 17/18)
1) Spells known, Deft Explorer
2) Primal Companion
3) Nature's Veil
4) Feral Senses
5) something

Full (Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, 18)
1) Wild Shape
2) Wild Shape Improvement
3) Wild Shape Improvement
4) Beast Spells
5) Archdruid





Subclasses
Below are some of the different combinations you can make:

Precision/Brute Force - Swashbuckler/Monk

d4 Sneak Attack, Higher AC, better weapons for higher baseline damage. Subclass features would likely be monk themed.

Precision/Magic (Arcane) - Artificer/Bard

d4 Sneak Attacks, Uncanny Dodge, proficiency in saving throws, Flash of Genius
This character already has fantastic saves and defense along with half caster magic. Subclass features would likely be something like the Arcane Trickster or Armorer stealth mode.

Precision/Magic (Nature) - Ranger/Scout
Precision/Magic (Divine) - Bard/Dex Paladin
Precision/Precision - Assassin
Brute Force/Brute Force - Barbarian
Brute Force/Magic (Arcane) - Eldritch Knight/Hexblade
Brute Force/Magic (Nature) - Ranger
Brute Force/Magic (Divine) - Paladin
Magic (Divine)/Magic (Divine) - Cleric
Magic (Nature)/Magic (Nature) - Druid

[BerzerkerUnit]

Murderous instinct. level 3: you can reroll a number of sneak attack dice equal to your proficiency bonus and choose the result you want. You can use the feature a # of times equal to your proficiency bonus.

Getting the Drop level 10. 1/long rest when you roll initiative you can declare everyone is surprised except you.

It wasn’t me. 2nd level. Proficiency bonus per long rest, when you fail a sleight of hand or thieves tools check, you can avoid any negative consequence for failure such as being noticed or triggering a trap.

[Maat Mons]

Not to sidetrack too much, but I kind of like that Precision / Brute force / Arcane Magic / Natural Magic / Divine Magic divide. It meshes well with my desire to associate magical power sources an ability scores, i.e. Arcane = Int, Nature = Wis, and (Un)Holy = Cha. Since, clearly, Force = Str and Precision = Dex, that gives one theme per ability score, discounting Con, which is inherently passive, and also universally desired across all character types.

[Theodoxus]

Murderous instinct. level 3: you can reroll a number of sneak attack dice equal to your proficiency bonus and choose the result you want. You can use the feature a # of times equal to your proficiency bonus.

Getting the Drop level 10. 1/long rest when you roll initiative you can declare everyone is surprised except you.

It wasn’t me. 2nd level. Proficiency bonus per long rest, when you fail a sleight of hand or thieves tools check, you can avoid any negative consequence for failure such as being noticed or triggering a trap.

Drop 'per PB' and convert to 1 per character level per long rest (to match the other two classes) and the first and third are fine. The second one is kinda meh mechanically, but fun roleplay-wise.


Not to sidetrack too much, but I kind of like that Precision / Brute force / Arcane Magic / Natural Magic / Divine Magic divide. It meshes well with my desire to associate magical power sources an ability scores, i.e. Arcane = Int, Nature = Wis, and (Un)Holy = Cha. Since, clearly, Force = Str and Precision = Dex, that gives one theme per ability score, discounting Con, which is inherently passive, and also universally desired across all character types.

This also hit the same note for me.

[Man_Over_Game]

I've always liked the idea of using Hit Dice to modify a skill roll after the initial result. So you can see how much your "adventuring" experience gets you for free, and then you can spend more effort to make the result you want happen anyway.

So the player is always choosing whether they fail or not, and so is able to dictate *how* they fail.

That way, you can throw DC level god stuff, but limit it in the same way that limits magic: long-term cost.

The reason we are afraid of making skills too strong is because they don't have a cost. If you make the impossible possible, it can happen too often if there isn't enough stopping it from happening.

So add a cost. My solution was Hit Dice, but you could make it so that your "Expertise Dice" was the number of Hit Dice (regardless of size) you earned from "Expertise" classes, and make that many dice able to be spent on HP OR skills.

That way, you're using a mechanic that scales both with martials (and their larger hit dice) AND casters (who rarely use hit dice and have a ton in reserve) as additional, hidden synergies for veterans to plan around.

[Dienekes]

In my own homebrew rogue thing, I made skill tricks. Essentially ways to use skills in specialist ways, but being tricks they can only be used once against the same group. Or once per encounter to keep it simple.

It’s been pretty fun playing with it. But since a lot of the tricks involved rolling skills against ability saves I couldn’t use Expertise.

[luuma]

...So add a cost. My solution was Hit Dice, but you could make it so that your "Expertise Dice" was the number of Hit Dice (regardless of size) you earned from "Expertise" classes, and make that many dice able to be spent on HP OR skills.

That way, you're using a mechanic that scales both with martials (and their larger hit dice) AND casters (who rarely use hit dice and have a ton in reserve) as additional, hidden synergies for veterans to plan around.

On the flip side, I do like that Hit Dice are exclusively for recovering (hit die + con) hp on a short rest, and I'm sure a lot of people will genuinely want that system left untouched, with no other ways to use HD elsewhere. It's clear WOTC don't want to change that at all in the core game - just like they avoid any feature that costs HP, or that activates below half HP to give a non-hp benefit. I stick with that unless I think there is an extremely good reason to deviate from it, because I wouldn't want encourage people's characters to effectively self harm for bonuses.

[Old Harry MTX]

I have a question, and I don't know if it has already been answered in another post.

Why don't you use the spell slots mechanic for spellcasters, and a kind of ki points system for the experts?

[Eric Diaz]

This definitely belongs to homebrew, thanks!

And thank you for all the answers. Lots of useful ideas here.


I've always liked the idea of using Hit Dice to modify a skill roll after the initial result. So you can see how much your "adventuring" experience gets you for free, and then you can spend more effort to make the result you want happen anyway.

So the player is always choosing whether they fail or not, and so is able to dictate *how* they fail.

That way, you can throw DC level god stuff, but limit it in the same way that limits magic: long-term cost.

The reason we are afraid of making skills too strong is because they don't have a cost. If you make the impossible possible, it can happen too often if there isn't enough stopping it from happening.

So add a cost. My solution was Hit Dice, but you could make it so that your "Expertise Dice" was the number of Hit Dice (regardless of size) you earned from "Expertise" classes, and make that many dice able to be spent on HP OR skills.

That way, you're using a mechanic that scales both with martials (and their larger hit dice) AND casters (who rarely use hit dice and have a ton in reserve) as additional, hidden synergies for veterans to plan around.

I really like this!


I have a question, and I don't know if it has already been answered in another post.

Why don't you use the spell slots mechanic for spellcasters, and a kind of ki points system for the experts?

I was considering using HD, which is similar, for everyone.

I dislike keeping track of spell slots, but after some math I've realized HD is not enough for casters.

2 spell points per level, with spells costing 1 sp/level, plus one "free" spell per day, gets pretty close to what I want.

(come to think of it, maybe you could add your HD to some skill or damage rolls, regardless of class; it would value the warrior's 1d10 HD)

[Herbert_W]

What's your target audience for this game? Since this is a deliberately simple game, am I correct in assuming that it isn't intended to experienced players or powergamers?

You might not need to give experts a finite resource at all. The main reason that classes are generally expected to have broadly similar resource-management paradigms (as in they all have resources to manage and recover them by resting) is to ensure that they remain balanced across a range of optimization levels. If your target audience is entirely low-optimization, the optimization level range for which you need to prepare is narrower. You might be able to get away with letting experts use their abilities at-will.

But I'll assume that you do need a finite resource for experts, since that's what you're asking.

How about equipment? Characters are limited in how much equipment they can have on an adventure, both by weight and by cost. Perhaps you could let players roll to see whether they have the right tool/potion/etc. much like the utility belt rule described here (http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-utility-belt-rule-to-fix-cost-and.html), with experts gaining bonuses when using this system (or perhaps even being the only class that can use it). This would put the choice of what materials to pack into the hands of your player's characters, and therefore relive players of the burden of needing to make those decisions.

Experts could gain access to a wider array of things that they might be carrying via this rule, and a bonus on rolls to determine whether they are carrying the right stuff. If you place a limit on the amount of "stuff, we haven't decided what yet" that a character can have that's more restrictive than what their carrying capacity already imposes, then this limit could be raised for experts too.