Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]

[Procyonpi]

I mean he knew there was an Epic level Lich Necromancer camped outside his castle for months and took no steps to protect himself from negative energy despite them being readily available to a Wizard of his power.

Are we sure his INT was actually high enough to cast spells?

[Bilbo Baggins]

I mean he knew there was an Epic level Lich Necromancer camped outside his castle for months and took no steps to protect himself from negative energy despite them being readily available to a Wizard of his power.

Are we sure his INT was actually high enough to cast spells?

Sure, but he also had to start fighting on short notice. He didn't spend those few months preparing for battle, he was going about his daily business while mostly ignoring Xykon. And even though I doubt he'd admit to it, he acted rashly on impulse upon learning that Xykon was keeping Lirian's soul hostage.

[ReaderAt2046]

A couple points to note. First, liches do not in fact get the ability to inflict negative levels as an innate ability. They do have a negative energy touch, but that's just 1d8+5 Will for half, which is trivial at Dorukan's level. Xykon knows Energy Drain as a spell, but Dorukan didn't have any way of knowing that, since he wouldn't have seen Xykon fight before the final showdown. Second, how exactly was Dorukan supposed to have protected himself? Death Ward is a divine spell, and he's an arcane caster.

[woweedd]

A. He had no reason to expect negative energy. Liches only have one negative energy based ability inherently, and it's a 1d8+5 Will save for half: For an Epic Level Wizard, with the appropriate Will save, that's...Maybe impossible to fail. B. Even if he tried to Ward, he'd need to spend a Wish or Limited Wish to do it. Death Ward isn't on the Wizard spell list. And, besides, Xykon has Superb Dispelling. I can see why he didn't think it worth spending the resources for a risk that minor. C. Why are we assuming Dorukan would have a vast knowledge of undead? Knowledge: Religion (the relevant skill) is a Wizard class skill, sure, as are all Knowledge skills, but, with Soon and Lirian also having it on their lists, I could easily see Dorukan not seeing it as worth the skill points.

[hungrycrow]

Xykon somehow got an item to protect himself from positive energy, so Dorukan could have managed it if he wanted to.

Death effects are one of the basic things optimized characters defend themselves against at high level, because dying is bad. OotS characters aren't optimized though, so I guess Dorukan never figured this out despite making it to epic levels?

[woweedd]

Xykon somehow got an item to protect himself from positive energy, so Dorukan could have managed it if he wanted to.

Death effects are one of the basic things optimized characters defend themselves against at high level, because dying is bad. OotS characters aren't optimized though, so I guess Dorukan never figured this out despite making it to epic levels?
Dorukan had a whole party at his back for most of his career, at least two of whom almost certainly had ways to deal with undead and such. And Xykon literarly MADE the object. But, uh, keep in mind: He's had a LOT more time.

[Gurgeh]

Nitpick: Xykon is not a capital-N Necromancer, he's a sorcerer. He has a reasonable pile of necromantic spells, but he's not a specialist wizard.

As an addendum, wizards and wizard-adjacent people in OotS have a consistent history of denigrating and underestimating sorcerers in general and Xykon in particular. To wit: Xavion and Fyron in SoD itself, Eugene, V, Roy, the wizard who served V the summons. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to add Dorukan to that list.

EDIT: indeed, it's right there on the page; thanks, Rrmcklin!

[Rrmcklin]

It wouldn't be a stretch, because Dorukan made it clear he thinks that way. He explicitly states that Xykon cannot defeat him because his magic wasn't "earned" but something he was born with.

[woweedd]

It wouldn't be a stretch, because Dorukan made it clear he thinks that way. He explicitly states that Xykon cannot defeat him because his magic wasn't "earned" but something he was born with.
It's almost like the author has stated before that he thinks the only way to make a death narratively satisfying is if it's brought about by the character's own personality flaws/bad decisions. Or something.

[Riftwolf]

Didn't the Giant toy with the idea of showing absolutely no panels of Dorukan and Xykon fighting, because the fight was a foregone conclusion, the real drama was between Redcloak and Righteye, no matter what he drew someone would go 'Why didn't Dorukan cast X? PLOT HOLE", and it'd really wind up the optimisers if Xykon just came back to Redcloak dragging Dorukans corpse with no explanation?
My take on it is Dorukan wasn't Batman. He didn't plan ahead, he rushed in because of a mix of anger, overconfidence and wanting to save Lirians soul ASAP.
Also, and I can't state this boldly enough, Optimised play isn't dramatically compelling

[pearl jam]

Optimization also depends on having access to all the rules to know all the options. It's likely not the case that people in OOTS world know all the rules for all the classes that are not their own, and possibly not even all the future possibilities beyond their level in their own class.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, between the Order having no idea what a phylactery is, Xykon only hearing the word lich two minutes before becoming one, and the relative dearth of people knowing that a vampire and their host aren't the same person, it looks like the specifics of necromancy are rather unknown to people who aren't necromancers themselves.

[Emanick]

Optimization also depends on having access to all the rules to know all the options. It's likely not the case that people in OOTS world know all the rules for all the classes that are not their own, and possibly not even all the future possibilities beyond their level in their own class.

To be fair, this is a situation where Dorukan likely did know all of the relevant rules. Wizards and sorcerers share a spell list (with some few insignificant, irrelevant exceptions), and Dorukan had spent over sixty years as an epic-level wizard. He very likely knew about any core spell that Xykon could throw at him. If he had prepared properly, he likely would have been able to defeat Xykon in a head-to-head fight.

Now, of course, Dorukan was a person with human weaknesses like impulsivity and hubris; it makes perfect sense that he didn't act like an optimized machine, but rather underestimated Xykon and paid the ultimate price for doing so. I have no problem with how the plot played out, even though a big, childlike part of me cringes at the fact that the Bad Guy wasn't defeated in a scene where he so easily could have been. Still, I don't think we need to resort to blaming the OOTSverse's lack of optimization for Dorukan's defeat. It's his human qualities that let him down, not his access to knowledge or lack thereof. (Which I guess doesn't make for the best moral - "The bad guy who stripped away all of his humanity to become an undead monstrosity defeats the good guy because the good guy still had his humanity intact" hardly seems like an inspiring takeaway.)

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, between the Order having no idea what a phylactery is, Xykon only hearing the word lich two minutes before becoming one, and the relative dearth of people knowing that a vampire and their host aren't the same person, it looks like the specifics of necromancy are rather unknown to people who aren't necromancers themselves.

Heck, the only dedicated necromancer in the comic (apart from Clang Killitchy, a.k.a. Iron Mage Necromancy (and maybe Yidranna – I can't be bothered to recall what her specialty was)), Tsukiko has a number of, well, weird notions concerning undead abominations.

[pearl jam]

We know they share a spell list because that is meta rule knowledge available to readers familiar with D&D rules. OOTSworld breaks 4th wall and incorporates meta knowledge to come extent, but there also is evidence that individuals don't have access to all the meta knowledge like that, so it's certainly possible that Dorukan was aware of all the spells Xykon had access to, but it's not guaranteed.

That said, I agree overall with what you said about why he was defeated.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I mean he knew there was an Epic level Lich Necromancer camped outside his castle for months and took no steps to protect himself from negative energy despite them being readily available to a Wizard of his power.

Are we sure his INT was actually high enough to cast spells?

Sure, but he also had to start fighting on short notice. He didn't spend those few months preparing for battle, he was going about his daily business while mostly ignoring Xykon. And even though I doubt he'd admit to it, he acted rashly on impulse upon learning that Xykon was keeping Lirian's soul hostage.


Not preparing? Quite the opposite, in fact.

Page 102:

Frame 3: "I've been preparing for this fight since you arrived on my doorstep."
Frame 4: "Why should I [have come out]? You didn't have anything I wanted until today"
Frame 7: "I came out because you were dumb enough to show me where you were keeping her"

The only "dumb" thing Dorukan can be accused of was - ironically - overestimating Xykon. He obviously expected Xykon to use a more varied spell set (albiet not as extensive as his) rather than just spamming Energy Drain on him.

That was the flaw - he was expecting at least some degree of art, and he got a sledgehammer instead. Xykon's speech even explains this.

[wilphe]

Yeah, between the Order having no idea what a phylactery is, Xykon only hearing the word lich two minutes before becoming one, and the relative dearth of people knowing that a vampire and their host aren't the same person, it looks like the specifics of necromancy are rather unknown to people who aren't necromancers themselves.

Or indeed to necromancers themselves given how Tsukiko went down

[wilphe]

(Which I guess doesn't make for the best moral - "The bad guy who stripped away all of his humanity to become an undead monstrosity defeats the good guy because the good guy still had his humanity intact" hardly seems like an inspiring takeaway.)

If it helps remember Xykon wasn't exactly a non-monstrosity overflowing with humanity before he was undead.

He has greater potential to act on those impulses now he is a lich, but he always had them

[Mic_128]

Xykon somehow got an item to protect himself from positive energy, so Dorukan could have managed it if he wanted to.

You thought he'd leave the gate to try and get a trinket, with a Lich Sorcerer and a massive army right there?

[Peelee]

If he had prepared properly, he likely would have been able to defeat Xykon in a head-to-head fight.

He had prepared properly, I would argue.

[hungrycrow]

You thought he'd leave the gate to try and get a trinket, with a Lich Sorcerer and a massive army right there?

He had plenty of lackeys to send on errands. He also had a lifetime before SoD to prepare for caster fights in general.

[Kish]

Death effects are one of the basic things optimized characters defend themselves against at high level, because dying is bad.
What exactly do you not consider "one of the basic things optimized characters defend themselves against at high level"? What spell could Xykon have used that would not have you declaring Dorukan colossally dumb for not having invented and used an Immunity to Xykon spell?

If your case is: The wizard should not have lost because he's a wizard,

then I would venture that your analysis is not real applicable to OotS. Or any other story I ever have read. Or any D&D game I've ever played in. Or read about. Or anything other than the Tippyverse, to be blunt.

Neither Evershifting List of Perfectly Prepared Spells nor Grounds to Howl at the DM If I Ever Lose is actually a wizard class feature.

[hungrycrow]

What exactly do you not consider "one of the basic things optimized characters defend themselves against at high level"? What spell could Xykon have used that would not have you declaring Dorukan colossally dumb for not having invented and used an Immunity to Xykon spell?

If your case is: The wizard should not have lost because he's a wizard,

then I would venture that your analysis is not real applicable to OotS. Or any other story I ever have read. Or any D&D game I've ever played in. Or read about. Or anything other than the Tippyverse, to be blunt.

Neither Evershifting List of Perfectly Prepared Spells nor Grounds to Howl at the DM If I Ever Lose is actually a wizard class feature.

As people have noted, I think Superb Dispelling would have been difficult to defend against.
If I were to rewrite the scene, Dorukan would have had a one use immunity item, or a counterspell, and Xykon would have brute forced his way with multiple castings anyway. Would have shown Dorukan to have some preparedness while still arrogantly ignoring the main strength of sorcerers: their many spontaneous spell slots.

Of course this is all nitpicky and unnecessary, since the Giant got across what he wanted to anyways with less complicated detail. Just would have been nice to have the wizard put up more of a fight in a scene illustrating that wizards aren't the best at everything. Other fights, like V vs Z or Nale vs Malack, do show that a caster can be well-prepared and still have holes in their defenses.

[tomandtish]

Or indeed to necromancers themselves given how Tsukiko went down

Since this happened in main comic don't think a spoiler is needed.

Tsukiko does seem to understand how necromancy works, and even the physical capabilities of her undead minions. Note that she wears a ring of negative energy protection, so she can get her "hugs". Red Cloak has her minions take it off her before they drained her.

Her one mistake (admittedly a dozy) is believing that they are capable of love.

[Fyraltari]

she can get her "hugs"

Minor point but I don't think the quotes are needed here. She saw her wights as her babies, not as sexual partners. For that, she had Xykon, and the regular dead in mind.

[tomandtish]

Minor point but I don't think the quotes are needed here. She saw her wights as her babies, not as sexual partners. For that, she had Xykon, and the regular dead in mind.

The quotes are more because she has to command them to do it. It's forced hugging, and shows how good she is at deluding herself.

[Jason]

No mention of the fact that Dorukon spent a round casting prismatic spray, only to find it doesn't work in a black-and-white comic?

[MartianInvader]

No mention of the fact that Dorukon spent a round casting prismatic spray, only to find it doesn't work in a black-and-white comic?
To be fair, even if Dorukan had a lot of rules knowledge, that particular interaction isn't covered in the core rulebooks.

[Kish]

As people have noted, I think Superb Dispelling would have been difficult to defend against.
If I were to rewrite the scene, Dorukan would have had a one use immunity item, or a counterspell, and Xykon would have brute forced his way with multiple castings anyway. Would have shown Dorukan to have some preparedness while still arrogantly ignoring the main strength of sorcerers: their many spontaneous spell slots.
Wouldn't have, since epic spells don't work that way. It would have showcased one thing alone: that Xykon was higher level than Dorukan. Which was probably true, and might have satisfied the "optimization is obligatory" crowd on the forum by reducing the fight to a simple "26 > 22," but whether it was or not was not what Rich wanted to showcase.

[hungrycrow]

Wouldn't have, since epic spells don't work that way. It would have showcased one thing alone: that Xykon was higher level than Dorukan. Which was probably true, and might have satisfied the "optimization is obligatory" crowd on the forum by reducing the fight to a simple "26 > 22," but whether it was or not was not what Rich wanted to showcase.

Sorry, i was unclear. I meant he would use energy drain. Basically what happened in the comic, but Dorukan would block one of them before getting overwhelmed.

So yeah, overall a pointless addition.

[Riftwolf]

Sorry, i was unclear. I meant he would use energy drain. Basically what happened in the comic, but Dorukan would block one of them before getting overwhelmed.

So yeah, overall a pointless addition.

Do you mean counterspell?
In a one-on-one duel, counterspelling against a sorcerer is a bad move. They have more slots than you, and you're using up your action to stall. Opening a gate was a smart move on Dorukans part, as it switched Xykon from using powerful single target spells to less powerful multi-target/area spells at their cost of one action. Was also more visually interesting than counterspelling.
In-comic, I can think of three instances of counterspelling. V against Samantha was entirely a stalling tactic till the rest of the Order could attack, and it didn't entirely work.
V vs Frost giants was effective because it wasn't a one on one duel and V was protecting the ship rather than trying to kill the giants.
Redcloak vs Tsukiko was very effective because he was already winning; the Shout was a last minute spell of desperation by someone being utterly trounced, and thinking about it, wouldn't have done much even if RC hadn't blocked it.
So counterspelling is circumstantially useful, not a universal answer to all magic.

[woweedd]

Sorry, i was unclear. I meant he would use energy drain. Basically what happened in the comic, but Dorukan would block one of them before getting overwhelmed.

So yeah, overall a pointless addition.

Wait, as in, Dorukan has the buff and then Xykon disspells it? I mean, I guess that’d work. Doesn’t really change much, though.

[brian 333]

I think The Giant made a statement about optimization in the design of the defenses of each gate. Each relied upon the abilities of one class and all, save one so far, have failed.

TOotS being a diverse party with complimentary rather than overlapping abilities is repeatedly shown to be their strength.

Optimization is great against one type of attack. Chances are really good that the ten million other ways of attacking will be tried, especially if the DM hates Min/Maxing.

[Velaryon]

Neither Evershifting List of Perfectly Prepared Spells nor Grounds to Howl at the DM If I Ever Lose is actually a wizard class feature.

This is begging to be added to someone's signature. Since no one else has done so yet, may I?

[Kish]

This is begging to be added to someone's signature. Since no one else has done so yet, may I?
Certainly.

[Magikeeper]

Ok, so, I've played in high-op D&D 3.5 campaigns before. Games where some of the most obnoxious stuff in Tippyverse (infinite loops, fast time plane creation, contingent celerity, etc) is stopped by tweaking a few spells / effects but something only on the level of an Ubercharger is normal. First off, the biggest determiner of "which caster wins" in this situation would probably be their gear, which requires more of a commitment to extreme paranoia than just keeping a good selection of spells prepared. Especially for death effects / level drain - I would agree that being immune to those is very high on the "must block" list for a high-op char, but although there are several good item options arcane spell options.. less so. Especially against a higher-level spellcaster. I wouldn't even want to rely on divine spells, death ward is too important to use something easily dispelled. To go a bit farther, in a very high-op but not Tippyverse-level game protecting your magic items is far more important than protecting your life in most cases. Less so if every enemy is packing soultrap weapons and what-not, granted. Anyway, always have protection from disjunction ready.

Oots is not a high-op setting, so there isn’t much Dorukan would have experienced to highlight the need for such protection into him. How many high-level caster duels did he even have? Like, in his entire life? Probably not many! He was never in a situation where, at any moment, he expected to be ambushed by a team of assassins wielding staffs that can fire off a barrage caster level 80+ spells created by an evil empire that uses wish-based-crafting + liquid pain from their pain factories along with optimized caster level buffing, all while some ass uses a Forced Dream combo at the bottom of a carried enveloping to reverse time if they failed to kill him in the surprise round (so they can start fleeing the plane before the fight even began). That’s not the kind of life you live in the Oots world, so you’re a bit less twitchy. He might not even know items that protect vs negative levels exist.

Also, what are Dorukan's banned schools? Was one of them necromancy?


------------------

I also wanted to talk about high-op campaigns in general. I think there's a view that such a campaign is comprised of PCs with a few strengths and crippling weaknesses. The thing is, extremely high-op chars IME tend to be pretty well-rounded. For example, I see theoretical Ubercharge builds that waste all 20 levels and the entirety of their wealth getting the biggest damage number possible. In an actual game you can set up your primary main combat suite with an investment of ~8 levels and probably pick up some other stuff at the same time. That leaves ~12 levels that can be something completely different as long as you don't lose too much BAB. With enough optimization a PC isn't just min-maxed - it's simply more powerful period than a less optimized character.

Btw, stuff to put on your high-op defensive wish list (I'll admit I haven't played 3.5 in years, hope I'm not missing anything...):

> Death Ward, or something similar (mostly for negative levels / ability damage)
> Mind Blank, or something similar.
> High Saves
> Saving throw re-rolls (Planar Touchstone[Catalogues of Enlightenment[Pride Domain]] is a GREAT feat).
> Freedom of Movement, or something similar.
> Some way of escaping traps FoM can't help with. (Teleportation, flight, etc)
> Protection against Dispelling / Disjunction [contingent suppression field/dispelling screen/antimagic field, an item that redirects spells, etc]
> Some way of overcoming death.
> Some way of manipulating time.
> Some way(s) to resist damage. Outright immunity to at least some energy types is also nice, but breadth is generally better than depth if you must choose.
> Evasion, Mettle, any other way of overcoming rapid flurries of partial save effects (that one armor enchantment that lets you regain HP whenever you pass a saving throw vs a spell is good for this). Better yet, just pick up all of them if you can.
> SR/PR
> Some way of dealing with enemy teleportation.
> Some way to greatly bolster your senses / see invisible things /etc.
> Ways to survive lack of food, water, air, other environmental dangers.
> Some kind of disintegration effect and/or some other way of defeating Force barriers.
> That obnoxious air elemental graft that makes you virtually immune to non-siege ranged weaponry. Yes, that specific graft. Ugh. Okay, there's some other anti-ranged options as well.
> A thinaun poison ring or something to ensure your soul stays with the party when you die. Enemy can't trap your soul if you trap your soul first!
> Immunity to disease / poison. If you're relying on this to survive never taking your gear off, put this higher on the list. >.>
> Some way of surviving in an antimagic field vs a powerful enemy (generally takes a lot of commitment). You can partially work towards this one by always favoring non-magical protections over magical ones whenever feasible.
> Some way of surviving lethal amounts of damage. (this would be higher up but generally takes more of a commitment).
> High Touch AC in general, High AC within an antimagic field (Generally takes a lot of commitment).
> Various ways of protecting yourself from eavesdropping methods that Mind Blank doesn't already cover.
> Some way to cast clairvoyance and possibly other divinations. (this would be much higher, but generally if anyone in your party can do this it's fine).
> A way to summon a disposable minion to run off and trigger traps for you. (this would be higher, but generally if anyone in your party can do this it's fine).
> Ability to reflect hostile wish spells specifically. You're going to need to slap the ?spellblade? item ability on a combo item for this one, I don't think anything else is going to cut it.
> Immunity to hostile transmutation effects. High saves + rerolls generally covers this, but it's pretty easy to pick up IIRC.
> If your DM is allowing dragon magazine stuff, that one spell that shuts down time manipulation should go way up this list.
> If you're undead, turn resistance/immunity is way higher up on this list. There are cleric domains that turn other stuff as well, so picking up some turn resistance can be useful even for living PCs (but is a very low priority for them).
> Prestidigitation, so you can stay clean without having to EVER take your most critical protective gear off. For a higher quality of life, make sure all critical armor enchantments are on your bracers of armor and/or combo item that includes that effect. Vests > Shirts, etc. Stuff you can live with basically treating as a part of your body forever. This is only on the bottom because you're likely immune to disease / poison, so you can survive being dirty. If you don't want to be a filthy murder-hobbo, put this higher on the list.


The list assumes stuff like Ice Assassin has been nerfed, along with some of the other key elements of Tippyverse super-immunity-to-everthing-forever. Also note that, although many of these can (and/or must) be acquired on an individual basis, some stuff can be done via party member auras and such.

[TooSoon]

I mean he knew there was an Epic level Lich Necromancer camped outside his castle for months and took no steps to protect himself from negative energy despite them being readily available to a Wizard of his power.

Are we sure his INT was actually high enough to cast spells?

It's one of the most unsatisfying fights in the history of the comic, right up there with V v.s Xykon. Basically Dorukan is handed an idiot ball, and then he flails about helplessly while Xykon makes a (bad) point about Sorcerers being better than Wizards. I'm not even saying whether it's right or wrong, but you can't that point either way with a straw man like "Dorukan fights like an idiot". And some of this isn't even Dorukan fighting like an idiot, he also gets flat out jobbed from a rules perspective. In the final phases of the battle Xykon just repeatedly casts spells while Dorukan seemingly does nothing on his turns. I remember bringing this up on here before, but the final phase of the showdown saw something ridiculous like Xykon taking 5 spells to Dorukan's 1 (right after Dorukan fell out of the sky and took damage somehow, even though that is flat out not what happens when Fly is dispelled). Really unsatisfying. The moral seemed to be "fight like a moron and you will lose, no matter how superior your class is".

It shouldn't have been hard to have Xykon beat Dorukan legit either. The guy was already at least level 19 when Lirian captured him. By the time he gets to Dorukan he could easily be Epic; instead of a legit win over Dorukan that is satisfying we get that railroad.

[woweedd]

It's one of the most unsatisfying fights in the history of the comic, right up there with V v.s Xykon. Basically Dorukan is handed an idiot ball, and then he flails about helplessly while Xykon makes a (bad) point about Sorcerers being better than Wizards. I'm not even saying whether it's right or wrong, but you can't that point either way with a straw man like "Dorukan fights like an idiot". And some of this isn't even Dorukan fighting like an idiot, he also gets flat out jobbed from a rules perspective. In the final phases of the battle Xykon just repeatedly casts spells while Dorukan seemingly does nothing on his turns. I remember bringing this up on here before, but the final phase of the showdown saw something ridiculous like Xykon taking 5 spells to Dorukan's 1 (right after Dorukan fell out of the sky and took damage somehow, even though that is flat out not what happens when Fly is dispelled). Really unsatisfying. The moral seemed to be "fight like a moron and you will lose, no matter how superior your class is".

It shouldn't have been hard to have Xykon beat Dorukan legit either. The guy was already at least level 19 when Lirian captured him. By the time he gets to Dorukan he could easily be Epic; instead of a legit win over Dorukan that is satisfying we get that railroad.
See, that’s kinda the point: Xykon beats him using an advantage only a sorcerer could have: spamming. A Wizard couldn’t have pulled Energy Drain five times in a single fight, due to the nature of spell slots. But Xykon…Can. The analogy is that Xykon is the hammer to Dorukan’s fine-tuned watch: he only had the one trick…But it’s a hell of a trick. Also, what was unsatisfying about the V Xykon fight exactly. It seemed to be pretty good to me.

[Morty]

Of course this is all nitpicky and unnecessary, since the Giant got across what he wanted to anyways with less complicated detail. Just would have been nice to have the wizard put up more of a fight in a scene illustrating that wizards aren't the best at everything. Other fights, like V vs Z or Nale vs Malack, do show that a caster can be well-prepared and still have holes in their defenses.

I don't think "illustrating that wizards aren't the best at everything" was high on the list of priorities for that scene. Or, indeed, anywhere on that list. Insofar as that scene had any kind of deeper message, it was to display Xykon's belief in overwhelming force above all else. The important story was happening on the ground below the fight.

[brian 333]

Ok, so, I've played in high-op D&D 3.5 campaigns before. Games where some of the most obnoxious stuff in Tippyverse (infinite loops, fast time plane creation, contingent celerity, etc) is stopped by tweaking a few spells / effects but something only on the level of an Ubercharger is normal. First off, the biggest determiner of "which caster wins" in this situation would probably be their gear, which requires more of a commitment to extreme paranoia than just keeping a good selection of spells prepared. Especially for death effects / level drain - I would agree that being immune to those is very high on the "must block" list for a high-op char, but although there are several good item options arcane spell options.. less so. Especially against a higher-level spellcaster. I wouldn't even want to rely on divine spells, death ward is too important to use something easily dispelled. To go a bit farther, in a very high-op but not Tippyverse-level game protecting your magic items is far more important than protecting your life in most cases. Less so if every enemy is packing soultrap weapons and what-not, granted. Anyway, always have protection from disjunction ready.

Oots is not a high-op setting, so there isn’t much Dorukan would have experienced to highlight the need for such protection into him. How many high-level caster duels did he even have? Like, in his entire life? Probably not many! He was never in a situation where, at any moment, he expected to be ambushed by a team of assassins wielding staffs that can fire off a barrage caster level 80+ spells created by an evil empire that uses wish-based-crafting + liquid pain from their pain factories along with optimized caster level buffing, all while some ass uses a Forced Dream combo at the bottom of a carried enveloping to reverse time if they failed to kill him in the surprise round (so they can start fleeing the plane before the fight even began). That’s not the kind of life you live in the Oots world, so you’re a bit less twitchy. He might not even know items that protect vs negative levels exist.

Also, what are Dorukan's banned schools? Was one of them necromancy?


------------------

I also wanted to talk about high-op campaigns in general. I think there's a view that such a campaign is comprised of PCs with a few strengths and crippling weaknesses. The thing is, extremely high-op chars IME tend to be pretty well-rounded. For example, I see theoretical Ubercharge builds that waste all 20 levels and the entirety of their wealth getting the biggest damage number possible. In an actual game you can set up your primary main combat suite with an investment of ~8 levels and probably pick up some other stuff at the same time. That leaves ~12 levels that can be something completely different as long as you don't lose too much BAB. With enough optimization a PC isn't just min-maxed - it's simply more powerful period than a less optimized character.

Btw, stuff to put on your high-op defensive wish list (I'll admit I haven't played 3.5 in years, hope I'm not missing anything...):

> Death Ward, or something similar (mostly for negative levels / ability damage)
> Mind Blank, or something similar.
> High Saves
> Saving throw re-rolls (Planar Touchstone[Catalogues of Enlightenment[Pride Domain]] is a GREAT feat).
> Freedom of Movement, or something similar.
> Some way of escaping traps FoM can't help with. (Teleportation, flight, etc)
> Protection against Dispelling / Disjunction [contingent suppression field/dispelling screen/antimagic field, an item that redirects spells, etc]
> Some way of overcoming death.
> Some way of manipulating time.
> Some way(s) to resist damage. Outright immunity to at least some energy types is also nice, but breadth is generally better than depth if you must choose.
> Evasion, Mettle, any other way of overcoming rapid flurries of partial save effects (that one armor enchantment that lets you regain HP whenever you pass a saving throw vs a spell is good for this). Better yet, just pick up all of them if you can.
> SR/PR
> Some way of dealing with enemy teleportation.
> Some way to greatly bolster your senses / see invisible things /etc.
> Ways to survive lack of food, water, air, other environmental dangers.
> Some kind of disintegration effect and/or some other way of defeating Force barriers.
> That obnoxious air elemental graft that makes you virtually immune to non-siege ranged weaponry. Yes, that specific graft. Ugh. Okay, there's some other anti-ranged options as well.
> A thinaun poison ring or something to ensure your soul stays with the party when you die. Enemy can't trap your soul if you trap your soul first!
> Immunity to disease / poison. If you're relying on this to survive never taking your gear off, put this higher on the list. >.>
> Some way of surviving in an antimagic field vs a powerful enemy (generally takes a lot of commitment). You can partially work towards this one by always favoring non-magical protections over magical ones whenever feasible.
> Some way of surviving lethal amounts of damage. (this would be higher up but generally takes more of a commitment).
> High Touch AC in general, High AC within an antimagic field (Generally takes a lot of commitment).
> Various ways of protecting yourself from eavesdropping methods that Mind Blank doesn't already cover.
> Some way to cast clairvoyance and possibly other divinations. (this would be much higher, but generally if anyone in your party can do this it's fine).
> A way to summon a disposable minion to run off and trigger traps for you. (this would be higher, but generally if anyone in your party can do this it's fine).
> Ability to reflect hostile wish spells specifically. You're going to need to slap the ?spellblade? item ability on a combo item for this one, I don't think anything else is going to cut it.
> Immunity to hostile transmutation effects. High saves + rerolls generally covers this, but it's pretty easy to pick up IIRC.
> If your DM is allowing dragon magazine stuff, that one spell that shuts down time manipulation should go way up this list.
> If you're undead, turn resistance/immunity is way higher up on this list. There are cleric domains that turn other stuff as well, so picking up some turn resistance can be useful even for living PCs (but is a very low priority for them).
> Prestidigitation, so you can stay clean without having to EVER take your most critical protective gear off. For a higher quality of life, make sure all critical armor enchantments are on your bracers of armor and/or combo item that includes that effect. Vests > Shirts, etc. Stuff you can live with basically treating as a part of your body forever. This is only on the bottom because you're likely immune to disease / poison, so you can survive being dirty. If you don't want to be a filthy murder-hobbo, put this higher on the list.


The list assumes stuff like Ice Assassin has been nerfed, along with some of the other key elements of Tippyverse super-immunity-to-everthing-forever. Also note that, although many of these can (and/or must) be acquired on an individual basis, some stuff can be done via party member auras and such.

Man.

Wow.

That's a lot of gear, Paw-paw.

What kind of world would have that much junk conveniently available so that a character can wear and use it all? That's got to cost the entire wealth-by-level of at least two or three level 3o characters and at least an epic character worth of exp if your character crafts it.

That doesn't sound at all like a character that was leveled up from 1 in a series of campaigns, but one that was dreamed up to be 'unbeatable' but who would fold like tissue paper when dealing with a ranger or rogue optimised to be a mage-killer.

[TooSoon]

See, that’s kinda the point: Xykon beats him using an advantage only a sorcerer could have: spamming. A Wizard couldn’t have pulled Energy Drain five times in a single fight, due to the nature of spell slots. But Xykon…Can. The analogy is that Xykon is the hammer to Dorukan’s fine-tuned watch: he only had the one trick…But it’s a hell of a trick. Also, what was unsatisfying about the V Xykon fight exactly. It seemed to be pretty good to me.
But that's only how Xykon can beat him because Dorukan:
a) acts like an idiot (protecting from energy drain is easy, as is escaping once you realise you need to go do that), and
b) Is jobbed by a selective ignoring of the rules in the fight. In the final sequence of their battle Xykon gets 5 spells in a row to Dorukan's 1. That is not how the game mechanics work. Dorukan just stands there and lets Xykon cast energy drains over and over while casting almost no spells in reponse, and not even trying to teleport away. Abusrd.

The V fight was unsatisfying because it was a classic example of an author boxing themselves into a corner. The Author had foreshadowed HARD that V was going to lose the fight. It was obvious leading into the comic where they finally trade blows. The problem was the author had pumped V up to such a point to hype him that Xykon winning shattered suspension of disbelief. I think the author was aware of this issue, and looking back over the old threads you can see it was discussed widely.

I honestly believe Rich was aware of both the problem he'd created in this respect, and the blowback the fight was generating. Posters were highlighting hundreds of ways V could effortlessly win, and so the author started to try and sell the fight as something plausible. First Rich had the strongest soulbind escape. Then the author "clarified" how the soul bind worked to tone down V a bit (arguably in contradiction of the prophecy he was fulfilling). Personally I think the author initially thought this was enough, and the original plan was to have the "maximized energy drain dumbass" to be the checkmate. Going back and reading it, it certainly comes off that way, but so heavy was the criticism at the mechanics, the inconsistency and the lack of originality (really, energy drain again?) that the next comic features a better conclusion which continues to add dues ex machina's to help Xykon; e.g. suddenly RC and Xykon know what soulbinds are (and gosh, they just happened to check for it). Xykon just happens to have the right item on him (and hey, he can no sell the impact damage from a point blank explosion of meteor swarms apparently, aside from being immune to Fire). Xykon busts out a spell that all but assures us he is much, much higher level than was previously indicated.

All that said, it's still a bit unsatisfying, even though everything else about the arc and story rocks.

[Maat Mons]

Magikeeper, you touched on how some magic items would be weird to wear in the bath. This is a topic of interest to me. Along with how some magic items would be weird to wear to bed. And how some magic items would be weird to wear at social functions.

I've been thinking of ways to get the most vital protections onto items you could plausibly always have on, no matter the occasion. For these purposes, I've merged some items together. But I haven't re-slotted any.

Semi-Custom Bracelet

Bracers of Armor (+1, Soulfire, Proof Against Transmutation): 100,000 x 1 = 100,000
Wand Bracelet: 12,000 x 1.5 = 18,000
Total: 118,000

Semi-Custom Anklet

Anklet of Translocation: 1,400 x 1.5 = 2,100
Cloudwalker Anklets: 50,000 x 1 = 50,000
Total: 52,100

Semi-Custom Ring

Ring of Feather Falling: 2,200 x 1.5 = 3,300
Ring of Freedom of Movement: 40,000 x 1.5 = 60,000
Ring of Sustenance: 2,500 x 1.5 = 3,750
Ring of Mental Fortitude: 110,000 x 1 = 110,000
Total: 177,050

Semi-Custom Necklace

Enduring Amulet: 1,500 x 1.5 = 2,250
Necklace of Adaptation: 9,000 x 1.5 = 13,500
Periapt of Health: 7,400 x 1.5 = 11,100
Periapt of Proof Against Poison: 27,000 x 1 = 27,000
Total: 53,850

Total Total: 401,000

It's expensive, yes. But can you really put a price on being able to take off your hood without fear of being mind-controlled?

[hungrycrow]

But that's only how Xykon can beat him because Dorukan:
a) acts like an idiot (protecting from energy drain is easy, as is escaping once you realise you need to go do that), and
b) Is jobbed by a selective ignoring of the rules in the fight. In the final sequence of their battle Xykon gets 5 spells in a row to Dorukan's 1. That is not how the game mechanics work. Dorukan just stands there and lets Xykon cast energy drains over and over while casting almost no spells in reponse, and not even trying to teleport away. Abusrd.

The V fight was unsatisfying because it was a classic example of an author boxing themselves into a corner. The Author had foreshadowed HARD that V was going to lose the fight. It was obvious leading into the comic where they finally trade blows. The problem was the author had pumped V up to such a point to hype him that Xykon winning shattered suspension of disbelief. I think the author was aware of this issue, and looking back over the old threads you can see it was discussed widely.

I honestly believe Rich was aware of both the problem he'd created in this respect, and the blowback the fight was generating. Posters were highlighting hundreds of ways V could effortlessly win, and so the author started to try and sell the fight as something plausible. First Rich had the strongest soulbind escape. Then the author "clarified" how the soul bind worked to tone down V a bit (arguably in contradiction of the prophecy he was fulfilling). Personally I think the author initially thought this was enough, and the original plan was to have the "maximized energy drain dumbass" to be the checkmate. Going back and reading it, it certainly comes off that way, but so heavy was the criticism at the mechanics, the inconsistency and the lack of originality (really, energy drain again?) that the next comic features a better conclusion which continues to add dues ex machina's to help Xykon; e.g. suddenly RC and Xykon know what soulbinds are (and gosh, they just happened to check for it). Xykon just happens to have the right item on him (and hey, he can no sell the impact damage from a point blank explosion of meteor swarms apparently, aside from being immune to Fire). Xykon busts out a spell that all but assures us he is much, much higher level than was previously indicated.

All that said, it's still a bit unsatisfying, even though everything else about the arc and story rocks.

Could you explain some of the ways V could have won that fight? I was fine with it and didn't see all those debate threads.

[Magikeeper]

Man.

Wow.

That's a lot of gear, Paw-paw.

What kind of world would have that much junk conveniently available so that a character can wear and use it all? That's got to cost the entire wealth-by-level of at least two or three level 3o characters and at least an epic character worth of exp if your character crafts it.

That doesn't sound at all like a character that was leveled up from 1 in a series of campaigns, but one that was dreamed up to be 'unbeatable' but who would fold like tissue paper when dealing with a ranger or rogue optimised to be a mage-killer.

Few comments:

First up, in general:

- I called it a "wish list" for a reason - most PCs are not going to be able to grab all of that. Also, not all of that needs to be from items! Spellcasters have trouble dipping, but martials can generally multiclass/prestige 6+ times to pick up all sorts of defensive stuff while maintaining the allmighty bab most feat-based combat styles need. You can also pick up stuff from feats, racial abilities, etc. HOWEVER, even if you're just relying on items, you can pick up lesser versions of a sizable portion of that list without doing anything particularly crazy. Being *always* immune to X/Y/Z is more expensive and is probably reserved for the most important stuff, but temporary or X/use per day immunity to most things is feasible to acquire. One of the strongest spell redirection items is... was it 8k off the shelf? I don't remember. I wouldn't expect a normal optimized PC to be packing most of that list in any case - if you're seriously blocking wish spells and feel that's a good use of your gold you not in a normal campaign.
- If you do optimize crafting, reducing XP expenditure is a big part of it. There's some combos that basically skip the issue entirely (iirc there's some kind of XP save point trick), but we houseruled that out of existence as it's very degenerate. Even without infinite crafting XP you can get costs pretty low. Liquid pain / liquid joy is also an option but that's more on the national level.
- - In general, finding, training, and/or having a party member be an optimized crafter dramatically changes what you have access to. Depending on how your table runs leadership you might be able to pick up a dedicated artificer pretty easily.
- There's also ways to generate wealth by running a business or whatever.

Most hi-op PCs I've had only had part of that wishlist, as it were, but it really is quite feasible to have access to a sizable portion of that list to a limited extent at high levels. EDIT: I'll agree I emphasized items a bit too much though, most such PCs will be relying on buffs and class features for most things. It's just that Xykon / Dorukan were both single-class arcane spellcasters so item choice is going to be an even bigger deal than normal. Items usually being harder to replace than resurrecting PCs still stands though.

Okay, now if you want to know about the specific campaign that I was mentally drawing from to come up with that list, including wish protection, one that ran for several years and was my favorite campaign to be in as a player:

- Campaign went from 1 to 19 (ended due to DM death :( ). We had some free ECL, although partway through we traveled to an parallel multiverse around level 10 where our redesigned selves had to give up all but 2 levels of that in exchange for becoming gestalt (It was plot opportunity to make big changes and that was part of what we agreed on).
- We had a dedicated artificer. More than one - a PC and at least one cohort IIRC. They were extremely optimized for crafting, and we allowed dragon magazine stuff (I forget if some of the crafting feats were from that..? I think the most important ones were from Eberron sourcebooks but I don't quite recall). There are rules for merging that exist outside of the DMG custom rules. We didn't allow the custom rules, only merging (no re-sloting).
- The DM loaded up enemies with whatever gear they needed - we were dealing with some very well-funded foes that were also optimizing crafting and such. Then we looted them and had tons of wealth. People talk about this causing issues, but if you just double down like our DM did you reach the point where the party is so rich their power level stabilizes and enemies can have anything pre-epic without making them the players any stronger.
- - Combined with our crafting optimization we were filthy rich and actually had a spreadsheet detailing the set-up for our organization's "standard gear". I also included several different price points for each item (as they were all combo items), with lower-tier npcs that still met the requirements to be with the away team often getting budget versions that still covered the most critical stuff. The standard gear didn't cover that entire wish-list either, but it did cover death effects and such.
- - Most excess wealth went towards our airship.. which was more like a fantasy spacestation tbh. Well, a colony arkship traveling the multiverse, let's say.
- The one thing the DM heavily restricted was epic-Level stuff - we could not craft it without being epic level ourselves and due to plot reasons most epic level NPCs had vanished prior to the start of our campaign.
- The threats faced by the PCs were extreme - the DM had basically memorized everything in 3.5 and a bunch of 3rd party stuff and used all of it. I was enjoying the uphill battle but party morale was an issue. Yes, even with all our powers. It was very much a campaign where you had to pick your battles and plan every step with care, especially since we could not survive the evil empire we were opposing if they prematurely considered us an existential threat instead of just a regular old threat they can just let a small subset of their elites deal with and/or recruit.

-----------------

@Maat Mons - Always on items - I forget where I put my old spreadsheet. Some of those items do jog my memory, though!

Ah! Found it. Aaaaand... the sheet didn't list what the component items were, just the final calculated costs and capabilities.
Hrm... I didn't complete the spreadsheet, it seems, the ring/anklet stats are missing. I'd need my PC's old character sheet to get all the items and their competent parts, although that'd only show the "full" version of the combo items, not the budget versions. I suppose we mostly just handed out the spell redirecting rings as our "budget" option, and footwear wasn't standardized yet among party members..?

As for helping with your item suggestions, a necklace of natural weapons can be enchanted with weapon abilities (some of which are defensive / utility-focused!). Making anything you can out of aurorum (to repair if physically broken) + tossing on rust/acid proofing is somewhat affordable but I don't remember exactly where the rust/acid proofing was coming from. Was it a slotless weapon quality from the magic item compendium? +10k? Maybe..? There's also a fairly cheap (IIRC) face slot item that's a pearl that fuses with (?vanishes into? IDR) your tongue, that's a good one to use as a merging base. There are some even better face slot / head slot options but they're obscure and kinda convoluted / expensive, like extremely so. There's also some kind of vest that can be enchanted with armor abilities, but the most critical stuff should go on the bracers. There's also some way to get a self-disguise effect on bracers but I don't recall how.

If you use dragon mag, all rings can be poison rings (a weapon) and I know there's some way to turn either the face or head slot into a weapon but I don't recall the specifics. Making everything you can into a weapon is good because:
> A lot of "this item is hard to perma-destroy" stuff is weapon-specific.
> There are several defensive/utility weapon abilities, and dumping it all on the same weapon can get very expensive very fast. Including multiple mutually exclusive abilities that convert attack enhancement bonus into some other statistic, if someone in the party can efficiently buff large numbers of weapons.
>> Having multiple armors is also good because of this - the bracers & the vest effectively lets you wear two pairs of armor at once.
> You can never have enough spellblades (slotless enhancement that reflects a specific spell).
> If your party is crazy rich, luckblade reroll effect is also something you can never have enough of.

[Hurkyl]

See, that’s kinda the point: Xykon beats him using an advantage only a sorcerer could have: spamming. A Wizard couldn’t have pulled Energy Drain five times in a single fight, due to the nature of spell slots. But Xykon…Can. The analogy is that Xykon is the hammer to Dorukan’s fine-tuned watch: he only had the one trick…But it’s a hell of a trick. Also, what was unsatisfying about the V Xykon fight exactly. It seemed to be pretty good to me.
Not just that, but this is a specific blind spot that lots of skilled people have. When you're used to competing at a high skill level, your legitimate threats are generally only going to be other high skilled opponents. These are people who are going to tend to be ready for anything and can attack from any angle. People with crippling overspecializations aren't going to survive to that level, so you're simply not going to face someone who can be a competent threat and can drill one trick super hard.

Except... due to the nature of a sorcerer's magic, they don't have to have a crippling overspecialization to pull off that effect. And I imagine not all high level sorcerers would be as inclined as Xykon to resort to 'mindless' brute force tactics anyways.

So this result also ties in even more to the prejudice that wizards might have against sorcerers and underestimating what they're capable of.

[Hurkyl]

(and hey, he can no sell the impact damage from a point blank explosion of meteor swarms apparently, aside from being immune to Fire).
Resist energy applies to each meteor individually, and it's pretty uncommon for 6d6-30 to do any damage at all.

[TooSoon]

Could you explain some of the ways V could have won that fight? I was fine with it and didn't see all those debate threads.

I mean, it'd be a wearisome task but if you search the forums you can find the old Xykon v.s V threads from that time, where skepticism was brewing about how the heck Xykon could even win (and how the comic was being ruined by V being so powerful that no plausible threat existed). I spent some time looking them up myself a while back. Some of this was abated by the author gradually addressing it, and add ons to what I suspect was the initial story which helped soften the blow. It still came off as a bit ridiculous though. Much like Dorukan, the guy just has to stop and apply the right buffs and he'd golden even with no further adjustment. The adjustments also kind of didn't make sense and ruined the showdown.

Some specific things that are annoying, even after a lot of the issues were fixed:
1) Someone said "energy resistance, etc, ought to cover the meteor swarm". Yeh ok, he could have had a ring to protect from the fire, but what about the impact damage each of the 4 orbs cause when they explode? Xykon was at ground zero of the explosion, the damage should have been serious, and I don't even think there is an item to defend against that.
2) How do Redcloak and Xykon know about soul splices, and isn't it just a little convenient for them to think of it and check so quickly?
3) The prophecy & binding contract are frankly not fulfilled satisfactorily. V is told he will achieve "complete and total ultimate arcane power" and that his power will "dwarf any caster who has ever lived". V's power is not ultimate and complete; and not because he loses to Xykon. It's not complete and total because the way that power works "evolves" from the manner it originally appeared to work. The way it originally seemed to work was the levels of all 3 casters would stack, and so by harnessing 3 of the strongest ever casters to V he would have ultimate arcane power. So let's say Haerta, Ganonron and Jephton were level 70, 35 and 25. The combined caster level for V would now be 130. That was how may of us thought it worked. Instead, we get told later the levels don't stack and are shackled to V's normal base stats. I think a lot of readers would be annoyed by that because how can you have complete and total arcane power that dwarfs any caster to ever live when Haerta (who once lived) could have beaten you by herself? By definition V would have had no chance, because a wider array of spells attached to a mid level caster like V loses to Haerta. It was just a let down tbh.

I like that the author did some things to improve the fight after the ridiculous maximized energy drain, but it was still unsatisfying.

[Morty]

3) The prophecy & binding contract are frankly not fulfilled satisfactorily. V is told he will achieve "complete and total ultimate arcane power" and that his power will "dwarf any caster who has ever lived". V's power is not ultimate and complete; and not because he loses to Xykon. It's not complete and total because the way that power works "evolves" from the manner it originally appeared to work. The way it originally seemed to work was the levels of all 3 casters would stack, and so by harnessing 3 of the strongest ever casters to V he would have ultimate arcane power. So let's say Haerta, Ganonron and Jephton were level 70, 35 and 25. The combined caster level for V would now be 130. That was how may of us thought it worked. Instead, we get told later the levels don't stack and are shackled to V's normal base stats. I think a lot of readers would be annoyed by that because how can you have complete and total arcane power that dwarfs any caster to ever live when Haerta (who once lived) could have beaten you by herself? By definition V would have had no chance, because a wider array of spells attached to a mid level caster like V loses to Haerta. It was just a let down tbh.

I like that the author did some things to improve the fight after the ridiculous maximized energy drain, but it was still unsatisfying.

Almost as if the entire deal was offered by three fiends who were manipulating Vaarsuvius every step of the way and counted for exactly this kind of outcome.

[Fyraltari]

2) How do Redcloak and Xykon know about soul splices, and isn't it just a little convenient for them to think of it and check so quickly?
Redcloak didn't check for Soul Splices, he used True Seeing which, if I am not mistaken, checks for a lot of shenanigans. As for how he knew what they were: he's a nerd. He's one of the most, if not the most, knowledgeable character in the comic.

Instead, we get told later the levels don't stack and are shackled to V's normal base stats.

I don't know much about D&D rules, but I don't think that's what Xykon is saying. He is saying that V isn't actually level 100, he made a deal so V could borrow that power but because V didn't level up fair and square that power can be taken away, unlike Xykon's. Xykon isn't saying that V didn't enjoy all the perks of being level 130 or whatever, he's saying that once the source of V's power is taken away, V's just a mid-level wizard again. So V was the weak link in that situation however you look at it.

[TooSoon]

Almost as if the entire deal was offered by three fiends who were manipulating Vaarsuvius every step of the way and counted for exactly this kind of outcome.

1) It contradicts the prophecy too
2) If the fiends can just lie about the contract why honour any of it? We've been presented in the story with a contract that is prima facie binding. For the author to let it be ignored or gotten out of by some sort of imaginative interpretation of it is a let down. Why not just say "oh, we were measuring time according to the snoozypuss dimension, where every second is worth a year". Why does any of the spirit of the contract need to be promised if they can just cheat out of it? They promised his power would dwarf any caster to ever live. It didn't. That is a let down. To clarify; I 100% believe the original intention and portrayal is for the levels to stack, which fulfills the prophecy. Then Rich realized he'd boxed himself in too much and that wouldn't work, so suddenly that wasn't how the splices worked. I'd rather he just had V lose a 2nd splice before fighting Xykon so it wouldn't have ruined stuff that had been so nicely set up.

It's a small complaint. Overall the story in that Arc, and in SoD, was fantastic. So I hate to seem like I'm being too harsh on it. Just those 2 particular Xykon fights were annoying to me. Sorry.


Redcloak didn't check for Soul Splices, he used True Seeing which, if I am not mistaken, checks for a lot of shenanigans. As for how he knew what they were: he's a nerd. He's one of the most, if not the most, knowledgeable character in the comic.


I don't know much about D&D rules, but I don't think that's what Xykon is saying. He is saying that V isn't actually level 100, he made a deal so V could borrow that power but because V didn't level up fair and square that power can be taken away, unlike Xykon's. Xykon isn't saying that V didn't enjoy all the perks of being level 130 or whatever, he's saying that once the source of V's power is taken away, V's just a mid-level wizard again. So V was the weak link in that situation however you look at it.

No, this isn't right. V legitimately retained the base stats he ordinarily had. All he got was their spells. That was how he was failing checks and missing attacks he should have made with ease. So the prophecy doesn't work.

[pearl jam]

Not just that, but this is a specific blind spot that lots of skilled people have. When you're used to competing at a high skill level, your legitimate threats are generally only going to be other high skilled opponents. These are people who are going to tend to be ready for anything and can attack from any angle. People with crippling overspecializations aren't going to survive to that level, so you're simply not going to face someone who can be a competent threat and can drill one trick super hard.

Except... due to the nature of a sorcerer's magic, they don't have to have a crippling overspecialization to pull off that effect. And I imagine not all high level sorcerers would be as inclined as Xykon to resort to 'mindless' brute force tactics anyways.

So this result also ties in even more to the prejudice that wizards might have against sorcerers and underestimating what they're capable of.

People have a frequent tendency to stick with something that they have seen to be successful. (This is also a response to the "Energy Drain again? critique of the V fight)

In this case, I think a good analogy for the fight is a hard throwing pitcher. Sure, Xykon could mix in a curve ball or a slider or something, but then he may miss the strike zone. In this fight he's basically just showing Dorukan that he's gonna throw fastballs right over the center of the plate and Durokan can take the pitch or try to swing, but he'll strike out either way because he's just not capable (perhaps due to lack of preparation) to hit Xykon's fastball.

[TooSoon]

People have a frequent tendency to stick with something that they have seen to be successful. (This is also a response to the "Energy Drain again? critique of the V fight)

In this case, I think a good analogy for the fight is a hard throwing pitcher. Sure, Xykon could mix in a curve ball or a slider or something, but then he may miss the strike zone. In this fight he's basically just showing Dorukan that he's gonna throw fastballs right over the center of the plate and Durokan can take the pitch or try to swing, but he'll strike out either way because he's just not capable (perhaps due to lack of preparation) to hit Xykon's fastball.

Except in this situation Xykon gets to throw 4-5 pitches, and Dorukan is only allowed to swing once because screw the rules Xykon is badass. If you liked the fight good for you. It rubbed me the wrong way because it was a rule of cool idiot ball railroad that ignored the rules that the comic ordinarily seems to operate by. How hard would it have been to give Xykon the win legit, instead of like that?

[Morty]

1) It contradicts the prophecy too

It really doesn't. Vaarsuvius got "ultimate arcane power" just like they wanted. That they couldn't use it properly and it wasn't what they'd expected doesn't make the prophecy inaccurate.


2) If the fiends can just lie about the contract why honour any of it? We've been presented in the story with a contract that is prima facie binding. For the author to let it be ignored or gotten out of by some sort of imaginative interpretation of it is a let down. Why not just say "oh, we were measuring time according to the snoozypuss dimension, where every second is worth a year". Why does any of the spirit of the contract need to be promised if they can just cheat out of it? They promised his power would dwarf any caster to ever live. It didn't. That is a let down. To clarify; I 100% believe the original intention and portrayal is for the levels to stack, which fulfills the prophecy. Then Rich realized he'd boxed himself in too much and that wouldn't work, so suddenly that wasn't how the splices worked. I'd rather he just had V lose a 2nd splice before fighting Xykon so it wouldn't have ruined stuff that had been so nicely set up.

Your repeated conjecture about the author's motives is, to put it mildly, not well-founded. The fiends were truthful about the terms of the deal - they gave Vaarsuvius the three soul splices and they got hold of their soul for as much time as they spent using those souls. They just buried it in half-truths, carefully-placed lies and things that Vaarsuvius could have and should have questioned but didn't. Because they're fiends and this is what they do.

Much like with Vaarsuvius themselves, your "let down" is mostly caused by your expectation of something that was never going to happen.

[pearl jam]

1) It contradicts the prophecy too
2) If the fiends can just lie about the contract why honour any of it? We've been presented in the story with a contract that is prima facie binding. For the author to let it be ignored or gotten out of by some sort of imaginative interpretation of it is a let down. Why not just say "oh, we were measuring time according to the snoozypuss dimension, where every second is worth a year". Why does any of the spirit of the contract need to be promised if they can just cheat out of it? They promised his power would dwarf any caster to ever live. It didn't. That is a let down. To clarify; I 100% believe the original intention and portrayal is for the levels to stack, which fulfills the prophecy. Then Rich realized he'd boxed himself in too much and that wouldn't work, so suddenly that wasn't how the splices worked. I'd rather he just had V lose a 2nd splice before fighting Xykon so it wouldn't have ruined stuff that had been so nicely set up.

It's a small complaint. Overall the story in that Arc, and in SoD, was fantastic. So I hate to seem like I'm being too harsh on it. Just those 2 particular Xykon fights were annoying to me. Sorry.



No, this isn't right. V legitimately retained the base stats he ordinarily had. All he got was their spells. That was how he was failing checks and missing attacks he should have made with ease. So the prophecy doesn't work.

He got their "arcane power", narrowly speaking, in access to their spells. The combination of spells available to V after the splice was more than any other caster who ever lived in their universe, thus they fulfilled the promise in a narrow legalistic sense.

Because V didn't get any power beyond their "arcane power" he was still much less powerful than Xykon, particularly due to his lack of familiarity with the power he'd inherited and his poor strategic employment of it.

That devils will keep the letter of the contract but do so in a way that breaks the spirit of it is a very well established tradition of such contracts, so I think it's completely to be expected that the goods they delivered to V didn't live up to their hype while still meeting the requirements in the narrowest sense possible.

[TooSoon]

It's not "ultimate and complete arcane power" if you have less arcane power than one of the splices individually. If you want to look for wordplays to try and rationalize the contract and prophecy you can find them; I'm just saying they are unsatisfying to me, because you could just as easily use wordplay to negate the whole prophecy/contract. That's cheap, and unenjoyable to me, and inconsistent with how the rest of the comic is being portrayed. It undermines the story to me, by begging the question of why even bother to treat any of the contract/prophecy as binding, just claim you are using a different interpretation of words, or another language where the words meant something different, or whatever.

As for Dorukan, just to clarify for anyone interested, the final sequence in the disappointing fight with Xykon goes as follows: Xykon casts 2 energy drains. Dorukan gets one non-specific blast spell of some kind. Xykon casts 3 further energy drains. What sort of satisfying rules based fight is that? Never mind all the stuff that came before that point. Yeh, ok, Rich can toss the rules when he likes, but he's also writing a story which (whether he likes it or not in hindsight) has been written in a D&D rules based context. In fact, Rich has in the past done an amazing job in providing rules based explanations of how certain fights he depicted could have worked. This is not one of those occasions, and I suspect I'm not alone in finding it unsatisfying when Xykon could so easily have been depicted as having a legitimate win given his likely level at that point.

[Hurkyl]

1) Someone said "energy resistance, etc, ought to cover the meteor swarm". Yeh ok, he could have had a ring to protect from the fire, but what about the impact damage each of the 4 orbs cause when they explode? Xykon was at ground zero of the explosion, the damage should have been serious, and I don't even think there is an item to defend against that.
There isn't any. Only a creature intentionally targeted by one of the spheres takes such damage, and even then only on a successful ranged touch attack.

Aside: I remember when that strip came out, people were upset over the immunity thing so it was actually relevant that a Greater Ring of Fire Resistance was effectively the same for this purpose, but I don't actually recall why people thought it was such a big deal.


2) How do Redcloak and Xykon know about soul splices, and isn't it just a little convenient for them to think of it and check so quickly?
Literally seeing the souls spliced to V probably helped in coming to that conclusion. One might question whether casting "True Seeing" is an appropriate response to a battle with a high level spellcaster that has been weird from the very beginning, but I don't think you'll get much traction on that.

So the only point remaining on this question is whether or not it's reasonable for team evil to know that soul splices are even a thing.

[TooSoon]

There isn't any. Only a creature intentionally targeted by one of the spheres takes such damage, and even then only on a successful ranged touch attack.

Aside: I remember when that strip came out, people were upset over the immunity thing so it was actually relevant that a Greater Ring of Fire Resistance was effectively the same for this purpose, but I don't actually recall why people thought it was such a big deal.


Literally seeing the souls spliced to V probably helped in coming to that conclusion. One might question whether casting "True Seeing" is an appropriate response to a battle with a high level spellcaster that has been weird from the very beginning, but I don't think you'll get much traction on that.

So the only point remaining on this question is whether or not it's reasonable for team evil to know that soul splices are even a thing.

Uh no, the stuff like them knowing about the soul splices is more tangentially annoying. The bigger issues are the others I've highlighted, like how V fights like an idiot and gets jobbed out of the power he supposedly had. Those other things are asides. The Xykon fight didn't end up too bad after the author added more elements to it... it was still disappointing though.

[Silly Name]

Uh no, the stuff like them knowing about the soul splices is more tangentially annoying. The bigger issues are the others I've highlighted, like how V fights like an idiot and gets jobbed out of the power he supposedly had. Those other things are asides. The Xykon fight didn't end up too bad after the author added more elements to it... it was still disappointing though.

What's so weird about a studious high-level cleric and Epic level sorcerer lich knowing what a soul splice is? Xykon shows a certain knowledge of ways to cheat death, so it's not absurd he learnt about fiendish bargains and stuff like soul splices.

And yes, V fights like an idiot. That's the point of the whole scene: V was utterly convinced all it took to win was usage of high level spells and that Xykon would just crumble before sheer arcane might. V, in that moment, is obsessed with "fixing everything" and doesn't spend time to analyse and think clearly - teleporting into Xykon's lair unprepared and alone, thinking that since they have achieved power of the highest degree, nothing can stop them now.

How is V "jobbed out" of the power that had been given? The fiends had been clear on the splice's duration being dependant on V's willpower, and when it wavered or got impaired, V lost the splices.

[Clertar]

It was meant to be like the Mountain-Martell fight, where the guy we're rooting for has a lot of skill and we think they have a good chance of winning, but they become overconfident and in such a high stakes fight one mistake is a deadly mistake.

[Peelee]

1) It contradicts the prophecy too.
No it doesn't. It just doesn't fulfill the prophecy the way you expected it to be fulfilled. That's not a issue with the story, that's an issue with your expectations.


3) The prophecy & binding contract are frankly not fulfilled satisfactorily.
I recall being perfectly satisfied with it.

[TooSoon]

What's so weird about a studious high-level cleric and Epic level sorcerer lich knowing what a soul splice is? Xykon shows a certain knowledge of ways to cheat death, so it's not absurd he learnt about fiendish bargains and stuff like soul splices.

And yes, V fights like an idiot. That's the point of the whole scene: V was utterly convinced all it took to win was usage of high level spells and that Xykon would just crumble before sheer arcane might. V, in that moment, is obsessed with "fixing everything" and doesn't spend time to analyse and think clearly - teleporting into Xykon's lair unprepared and alone, thinking that since they have achieved power of the highest degree, nothing can stop them now.

How is V "jobbed out" of the power that had been given? The fiends had been clear on the splice's duration being dependant on V's willpower, and when it wavered or got impaired, V lost the splices.

The levels should have stacked; like it originally seemed they did. Then the contract and prophecy would be satisfactorily resolved without it feeling cheap to readers like me. V could have used elementary tactics too, like I don't know, casting their buffs before teleporting in. Gosh, it would have taken whole seconds to do. Plus, you know, used better spells too.

As I said, the gradual fixes the author put in to address it made it much better than it looked like it would have been, it's much better than the Dorukan debacle.

[Morty]

It's not "ultimate and complete arcane power" if you have less arcane power than one of the splices individually. If you want to look for wordplays to try and rationalize the contract and prophecy you can find them; I'm just saying they are unsatisfying to me, because you could just as easily use wordplay to negate the whole prophecy/contract. That's cheap, and unenjoyable to me, and inconsistent with how the rest of the comic is being portrayed. It undermines the story to me, by begging the question of why even bother to treat any of the contract/prophecy as binding, just claim you are using a different interpretation of words, or another language where the words meant something different, or whatever.

The terms of the contract were simple: Vaarsuvius gets the three Soul Splices and the fiends get control of their soul for the same duration as they benefited from them. And this is precisely what happened. Everything else was the fiends' marketing pitch, deliberately layered in obfuscation.

[Peelee]

The levels should have stacked
Why?

V could have used elementary tactics too, like I don't know, casting their buffs before teleporting in. Gosh, it would have taken whole seconds to do. Plus, you know, used better spells too.
Yes, it's almost as if "V treated magic as a cudgel" was a major theme of that whole arc, if not his entire characterization up to that point.

[Fyraltari]

No it doesn't. It just doesn't fulfill the prophecy the way you expected it to be fulfilled. That's not a issue with the story, that's an issue with your expectations.

Honestly, at this point a prophecy being fullfilled through the most obvious, common sense interpretation of its phrasing would be one hell of a subversion.

[Silly Name]

The levels should have stacked; like it originally seemed they did.

I was never under that impression when reading the pitch for the Soul Splice, and I don't get where you get it. The fiends offer V the spellcasting abilities of the spliced souls, not the sum of their saves and skill ranks.

When you make a deal with a devil, you get exactly what you bargain for. No more, no less, and you often find out you made the wrong choice.


V could have used elementary tactics too, like I don't know, casting their buffs before teleporting in. Gosh, it would have taken whole seconds to do. Plus, you know, used better spells too.

That's the whole point of that arc! V doesn't play smart, is too impatient, and makes elementary mistakes. A character acting on their flaws is not poor writing.

[TooSoon]

The terms of the contract were simple: Vaarsuvius gets the three Soul Splices and the fiends get control of their soul for the same duration as they benefited from them. And this is precisely what happened. Everything else was the fiends' marketing pitch, deliberately layered in obfuscation.

The promise was that his power would dwarf any caster to ever live. If you want to find ways to spin the words you are welcome, but to me it's cheap and ruins the suspension of disbelief of the story. Why honour any of the terms, just twist all the words to mean different things, or say you meant the words according to their meaning in another language or whatever. I'm glad you enjoyed it. To me it was a cop out. You don't have "complete and ultimate arcane power" that "dwarfs any caster to ever live" if just one of the splices was easily more powerful than you.

[Fyraltari]

The promise was that his power would dwarf any caster to ever live. If you want to find ways to spin the words you are welcome, but to me it's cheap and ruins the suspension of disbelief of the story. Why honour any of the terms, just twist all the words to mean different things, or say you meant the words according to their meaning in another language or whatever. I'm glad you enjoyed it. To me it was a cop out. You don't have "complete and ultimate arcane power" that "dwarfs any caster to ever live" if just one of the splices was easily more powerful than you.

But Hearta wasn't more powerful than V. V had powers Hearta had not, like Ganonron's Epic Teleportation spell.

Edit: Also, how in Hel's name does this have anything to do with supension of disbelief?

[Peelee]

The promise was that his power would dwarf any caster to ever live.


They had epic level casting, zero banned schools, and both prepared and arcane casting. Their power did dwarf any caster to ever live. That they used it foolishly does not mean that they didn't have it.

If you wish for a billion dollars and then give it all to a guy who offers to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, you still had a billion dollars. Nobody promised that you would be rich forever, that was just what you imagined what would happen.

[GloatingSwine]

The promise was that his power would dwarf any caster to ever live.

Probably should have asked for enough power to dwarf any caster to ever die :P

But the point of V's soulsplice incident was that power which didn't come with a solid plan that respected your enemy's capabilities was power you weren't going to hang onto for very long, and no amount of spell slots will help you pass that concentration check...

[hroþila]

I was never under that impression when reading the pitch for the Soul Splice, and I don't get where you get it. The fiends offer V the spellcasting abilities of the spliced souls, not the sum of their saves and skill ranks.
The archfiends said V would not gain any XP because their effective level would be too high. Interpreting that as "the levels stack for all purposes" is pretty reasonable in my opinion.
(Personally I have no problem with those scenes but I can see where TooSoon is coming from)

[Morty]

The fiends said, specifically, that "the amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster who has ever lived". They did not say that it would allow V to easily defeat or destroy any other spellcaster. To again quote them from a later strip, V assumed that and they saw no need to correct.

[Silly Name]

The archfiends said V would not gain any XP because their effective level would be too high. Interpreting that as "the levels stack for all purposes" is pretty reasonable in my opinion.
(Personally I have no problem with those scenes but I can see where TooSoon is coming from)

That I can get. Still, the term "effective level", in 3.5 parlance, implies Level Adjustment - which is simply "you count as N levels higher than you really are for XP adjudication purposes, but gain no actual benefits". I can absolutely see a "Soul Splice" template carrying an hefty LA value, perhaps even depending on the souls getting spliced.

Rules aside, I still insist that the whole point of a Faustian deal is that you get what you asked for. V was never promised "the full array of powers, capabilities and stats of the three spliced souls", but "[being allowed] to access all of the arcane powers the damned soul held while alive". Anything beyond that is not part of the deal.

[TooSoon]

But Hearta wasn't more powerful than V. V had powers Hearta had not, like Ganonron's Epic Teleportation spell.

Edit: Also, how in Hel's name does this have anything to do with supension of disbelief?

Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live. Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her. So he didn't dwarf the power of any other caster to ever live, or have complete and ultimate power. As I said, you can play with the words to make whatever disingenuous interpretations you like; but to me that's a let down.

[Fyraltari]

Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live.
Arcane power. V asked the Oracle about Arcane power specifically and the Directors told Vm V wouldn't be able to replicate Divine Magic. If you missed that, it's because you weren't paying attention, not because the author wasn't clear.


Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her.
V could cast all the spells she could and then some. V had more arcane power than she did. It's really not that complicated.

[Silly Name]

Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live. Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her. So he didn't dwarf the power of any other caster to ever live, or have complete and ultimate power. As I said, you can play with the words to make whatever disingenuous interpretations you like; but to me that's a let down.

V was promised power through the use of the Soul Splice. As long as V held on the Splice, they had all the power of Haerta at their disposal, plus the power of other two epic casters, plus V's own power. This made V more powerful than Haerta, for a time.

Poor application of that power was what made V lose. In their own words:

No—No, you were not wrong, Durkon. It was... such a waste. It started out well, but it soon became naught but sound and fury. I squandered its true potential by wielding it like a cudgel. Only when I lost it did I stop to consider what I was doing, and only then did I become effective.

[The MunchKING]

b) Is jobbed by a selective ignoring of the rules in the fight. In the final sequence of their battle Xykon gets 5 spells in a row to Dorukan's 1. That is not how the game mechanics work. Dorukan just stands there and lets Xykon cast energy drains over and over while casting almost no spells in reponse, and not even trying to teleport away. Abusrd.

That's the thing about Energy Drain though, It drops your spell slots DRAMATICALLY. After the first energy drain in the 5 consecutive ones, Dorukan probably didn't have any teleports LEFT (if he even prepped any that day).


and the lack of originality (really, energy drain again?)

He's a Sorcerer, they only have so many ways to deal with stuff.


Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live. Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her.

V by definition wasn't less powerful, since she had Hestia + 2 others and her own power. So when the fiends granted the contract, she was stronger than anyone we know of living in the OotS verse.

Also even afterwards V still had WAY more slots than Hestia, so still most powerful in terms of raw magic power that could be thrown around.

[Werbaer]

Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have.
Divine powers.

V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power
ultimate and complete arcane power

Hearta lived at some point, and V was weaker than her.
How do you come to this conclusion?

[Peelee]

Durkon has powers Hearta didn't have. V wasn't promised the most varied powers, he was promised ultimate and complete power, that would dwarf any caster to ever live.

Panel 5 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html). Any arcane caster.

Well, technically, any "arcane" caster but I don't exactly think I'm taking a leap of faith on the typo here.

[ORione]

As for Dorukan, just to clarify for anyone interested, the final sequence in the disappointing fight with Xykon goes as follows: Xykon casts 2 energy drains. Dorukan gets one non-specific blast spell of some kind. Xykon casts 3 further energy drains. What sort of satisfying rules based fight is that? Never mind all the stuff that came before that point. Yeh, ok, Rich can toss the rules when he likes, but he's also writing a story which (whether he likes it or not in hindsight) has been written in a D&D rules based context. In fact, Rich has in the past done an amazing job in providing rules based explanations of how certain fights he depicted could have worked. This is not one of those occasions, and I suspect I'm not alone in finding it unsatisfying when Xykon could so easily have been depicted as having a legitimate win given his likely level at that point.

Here's what the Giant said about that. You may or may not find it a satisfying response:


The fact of the matter is that there is no possible set of tactics that would ever satisfy the folks who have decided that wizards are always prepared for everything, and therefore, it is a waste of space for me to show such a battle in any more detail than I did. If I had spent six pages showing a complex back-and-forth, the same people would still be complaining because they would claim that the wizard should have prepared such-and-such spell—and then I would have wasted six pages of a finite physical book that could have been devoted to the actual story. It's a moving target that I will never be able to hit, so I've long since stopped trying.

Because let's face it: Dorukan is irrelevant. Narratively speaking, he doesn't matter at all. When you start reading that book, you already know that Xykon kills him and takes over his dungeon. There's no tension there. All the tension in that battle revolves around what Redcloak is going to do about his brother, and that's resolved on the page before. Once that's out of the way, the actual death of Dorukan is an extraneous piece of bookkeeping that needs to be dispensed with in order to get on to the next important part—namely, the final conversation between Xykon and Redcloak. That I even spent three-quarters of a page on it is attributed solely to completing Xykon's "arc," bookending the opening scene with the ersatz Professor X by actualizing the character's emergent philosophy. A bunch of fancy countermeasures and tricks by Dorukan would just undermine the impact of what Xykon was saying.

If it helps, think of that page as a montage scene rather than a direct moment-to-moment narrative. I'm sure Dorukan pulled out a spell or two between panels, but since they obviously didn't affect the outcome (because we all know he died before strip #1), I didn't need to show them. It also would have been equally valid for me to just have started page 106 with Xykon holding Dorukan's dead body (which would really have had the wizards-are-always-prepared people howling). Because all you really need to know for the story is, "And then Xykon killed Dorukan." Form follows function, and there's no dramatic function to be had in dwelling on the minutiae of a foregone conclusion.

[Riftwolf]

Is it possible that by the time of the energy drain spam Dorukan had run out of spell slots? I can imagine an Abjurer going nuts with resist/protection spells till he's left with nothing below 4th level except cantrips.

[RatElemental]

As for Dorukan, just to clarify for anyone interested, the final sequence in the disappointing fight with Xykon goes as follows: Xykon casts 2 energy drains. Dorukan gets one non-specific blast spell of some kind. Xykon casts 3 further energy drains. What sort of satisfying rules based fight is that? Never mind all the stuff that came before that point. Yeh, ok, Rich can toss the rules when he likes, but he's also writing a story which (whether he likes it or not in hindsight) has been written in a D&D rules based context. In fact, Rich has in the past done an amazing job in providing rules based explanations of how certain fights he depicted could have worked. This is not one of those occasions, and I suspect I'm not alone in finding it unsatisfying when Xykon could so easily have been depicted as having a legitimate win given his likely level at that point.

Haven't read it, but if Xykon beat Dorukan on initiative and was using quickened energy drains that's 2 drains before Dorukan gets to respond, which can knock up to 8 levels and spell slots off of him, when he responds with something weak (because it's all he's got left) before 2 more energy drains knock him down to nothing but low level spells probably full of mostly utility stuff that's not even worth casting.

[Jason]

When you make a deal with a devil, you get exactly what you bargain for. No more, no less, and you often find out you made the wrong choice.More like you always find out you made the wrong choice. Either you asked for the wrong thing in the first place, or the devil uses a loophole, or you find out the cost is much worse than the benefit you bargained for. The whole point of a good Faustian story is that the bargainer trades their soul for something that is of far less worth.

[danielxcutter]

Is it possible that by the time of the energy drain spam Dorukan had run out of spell slots? I can imagine an Abjurer going nuts with resist/protection spells till he's left with nothing below 4th level except cantrips.

I don't think most arcane spells protect against Energy Drain or Enervation, abjuration or not. At most he might be able to counterspell until that point, but Xykon has more spell slots either way.

I mean in theory, Dorukan could cast (Limited) Wish to duplicate Death Ward, but Xykon would probably have more epic slots to Superb Dispel the pants off Dorukan and both versions burn hefty amounts of XP anyways. Also there actually aren't many ways to protect against such a number of Energy Drains for an arcane caster even through items; the lack of armor makes it hard to use a Soulfire enchantment and bracers of the death deity bestow negative levels on a Good wearer. Those are about the only ways to be flat out immune to Energy Drain and the sheer number Xykon cast would punch through lesser degrees of defense.


Haven't read it, but if Xykon beat Dorukan on initiative and was using quickened energy drains that's 2 drains before Dorukan gets to respond, which can knock up to 8 levels and spell slots off of him, when he responds with something weak (because it's all he's got left) before 2 more energy drains knock him down to nothing but low level spells probably full of mostly utility stuff that's not even worth casting.

I personally interpret that as an artistic choice rather than a strict rules-based one. I have a DM who sometimes bends the rules when the end effect would be the same anyways.


More like you always find out you made the wrong choice. Either you asked for the wrong thing in the first place, or the devil uses a loophole, or you find out the cost is much worse than the benefit you bargained for. The whole point of a good Faustian story is that the bargainer trades their soul for something that is of far less worth.

I assume the devil flat out breaking his end of the bargain or something like that isn't particularly a good Faustian story?

[Jason]

I assume the devil flat out breaking his end of the bargain or something like that isn't particularly a good Faustian story?
No. In what I consider a good Faustian story the devil always plays strictly by the letter of the bargain. The rules and safeguards the bargainer thought would let him get the better of the deal never work out as he had expected.

[Snails]

The story here is that the Scribblers were very capable, but were only well practiced at epic level fights while in a team. Going on a solo career, they were still capable, but their personal philosophies left them with gaps and weaknesses of which they lacked awareness.

Xykon, however, built up his abilities specifically so he could beat other spellcasters in solo fights. It is hardly a perfect plan, but the combination of Supreme Dispelling plus Energy Drain is likely to prevail in a fight that lasts more than two rounds.

For the record, the last time I played a high level wizard, I would Quicken Truestrike + Disintegrate to specifically deal with powerful individuals, especially Undead.* The odds of Xykon surviving to the third round would be very low, and I would have a fair chance of winning with all my 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th level spell slots stripped away. But that was my wizard, not Dorukan.

That Dorukan had a habit of relying on his Paladin, Cleric, Druid friends for taking care of such threats, rather than have his own tactical plan, is not unreasonable, in my eyes.


----

* In 3e, the specific weakness of high level undead is that have a no Con score.

That seems like a strength at low level, because they had a d12 for HPs and are immune to a host of annoying threats like poison. But at high level, it is a serious weakness because (d12 + 0) HP/level is not very good at levels that everyone has a strong positive Con mod. Worst still, their Fort save is abysmal for lack of that Con mod -- this would be a huge problem for a sorcerer like Xykon.

Xykon probably only has something like 130 to 170 HPs when fighting Dorukan. One lucky Disintegrate might finish him in Round One.

As for people who complain about complete lack of optimization, V used Disintegrate twice against an individual undead creature in his Azure City fight. V being V, s/he so happened to be very unlucky there. But it was quite possible for V to dust that enemy with one spell.

[Snails]

No. In what I consider a good Faustian story the devil always plays strictly by the letter of the bargain. The rules and safeguards the bargainer thought would let him get the better of the deal never work out as he had expected.

Both Faustian bargains and prophecy should be fulfilled, but not quite how either the characters or audience expects.

I think V is satisfied that the IFCC fulfilled their end, as did the Oracle.

As a reader, I would not say this is the most elegant example, but I am satisfied as well.

[GloatingSwine]

No. In what I consider a good Faustian story the devil always plays strictly by the letter of the bargain. The rules and safeguards the bargainer thought would let him get the better of the deal never work out as he had expected.

Yeah, it's kind of important to the deal with the devil storyline that people who would make a deal with the devil are making the wrong choices.

If they were making the right choices, they wouldn't be making a deal with the devil in the first place.

Like in most cases, V got exactly what they wanted.

They didn't get what they needed, and that was a problem for them.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, it's kind of important to the deal with the devil storyline that people who would make a deal with the devil are making the wrong choices.

If they were making the right choices, they wouldn't be making a deal with the devil in the first place.

Like in most cases, V got exactly what they wanted.

They didn't get what they needed, and that was a problem for them.

Except in folktales where the devil is the one who end up conned.

[Rrmcklin]

Honestly, at this point a prophecy being fullfilled through the most obvious, common sense interpretation of its phrasing would be one hell of a subversion.

Maybe that's why people keep trying to figure out ways for Belkar to die, despite nothing else really fitting all of the pieces we've been told.

Beyond that, looking through the discussion, it basically seems like TooSoon's argument is "V should have won, but didn't and that's bad" while pretty much ignoring the actual context and point of that entire section of the story.

[hroþila]

Beyond that, looking through the discussion, it basically seems like TooSoon's argument is "V should have won, but didn't and that's bad" while pretty much ignoring the actual context and point of that entire section of the story.
I think that's very unfair. TooSoon said they liked every other aspect of that arc a lot, so clearly they were fine with where it was going (and thus with V having to lose at that point of the story). What they said is that they didn't find that part of the story convincing because, in their mind, there was a discrepancy between the prophecy and the terms of the deal, and the power V actually got/the way it was taken from them. TooSoon isn't saying that the way to address this should have been to make V win, but to change the prophecy and the terms of the deal. Which you can disagree with (I do), but it's not the argument you're portraying it as.

[woweedd]

Yes, V lost because they used their massive amount of power in stupid fashion. THAT'S THE POINT. V got overconfident, and, in a life-or-death fight, even a minor screw-up can get you killed. All the power in the world won't help you if you apply it poorly. Xykon isn't really much of a strategist himself, granted, but he's had years more experience from the best possible teacher for combat strategy: Being in combat, a lot, and not dying. V had the effective level of 3 epic-level spellcasters, but not the experience, and that was crucial, because it meant they mis-applied their power.

[Rrmcklin]

I think that's very unfair. TooSoon said they liked every other aspect of that arc a lot, so clearly they were fine with where it was going (and thus with V having to lose at that point of the story). What they said is that they didn't find that part of the story convincing because, in their mind, there was a discrepancy between the prophecy and the terms of the deal, and the power V actually got/the way it was taken from them. TooSoon isn't saying that the way to address this should have been to make V win, but to change the prophecy and the terms of the deal. Which you can disagree with (I do), but it's not the argument you're portraying it as.

But their premise seems very based in the notion that there was no reasonable way V could lose, at least not without being stupid about it. So, again, missing the entire point.

[GloatingSwine]

But their premise seems very based in the notion that there was no reasonable way V could lose, at least not without being stupid about it. So, again, missing the entire point.

There was no reasonable way V could lose without being stupid about it.

Unfortunately V was currently spending all of their time being both unreasonable and rather stupid.

That's why they thought they had all the tools they needed to brute force a win just because they had lots of spell slots, and tried to do so.

[Peelee]

Yeah, it's kind of important to the deal with the devil storyline that people who would make a deal with the devil are making the wrong choices.

If they were making the right choices, they wouldn't be making a deal with the devil in the first place.

Like in most cases, V got exactly what they wanted.

They didn't get what they needed, and that was a problem for them.

That school of philosophy is called anti-Jaggerism

[georgie_leech]

There was no reasonable way V could lose without being stupid about it.

Unfortunately V was currently spending all of their time being both unreasonable and rather stupid.

That's why they thought they had all the tools they needed to brute force a win just because they had lots of spell slots, and tried to do so.

Further, said unreasonable-ness and stupidity were rather in keeping with their existing personality and more specifically with how they'd been making decisions up to that point. It's only an Idiot Ball if someone suddenly starts acting like an idiot; the option of still being an idiot after they get their power up isn't that.

[Rrmcklin]

There was no reasonable way V could lose without being stupid about it.

Unfortunately V was currently spending all of their time being both unreasonable and rather stupid.

That's why they thought they had all the tools they needed to brute force a win just because they had lots of spell slots, and tried to do so.

That doesn't hurt my point, though.

[TooSoon]

That's the thing about Energy Drain though, It drops your spell slots DRAMATICALLY. After the first energy drain in the 5 consecutive ones, Dorukan probably didn't have any teleports LEFT (if he even prepped any that day).



He's a Sorcerer, they only have so many ways to deal with stuff.



V by definition wasn't less powerful, since she had Hestia + 2 others and her own power. So when the fiends granted the contract, she was stronger than anyone we know of living in the OotS verse.

Also even afterwards V still had WAY more slots than Hestia, so still most powerful in terms of raw magic power that could be thrown around.
So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
1) Even the author is admitting the fight didn't follow the rules satisfactorily, someone quoted him saying as much. If people don't care, that's cool, but I disagree that there was no more satisfying way of showing it. By showing it in an obviously rules incorrect way it actually undermines "emergent philosophy" Xykon is presenting, because it's not proving his point at all; it's proving if the guy he fights is jobbed then you win because you're cool no matter what point you think you're making. In fact while I'm very partial to the advantages of the sorcerer class it's actually convincing me of the opposite point, because all Dorukan has to do is teleport away and come back with better prep, and Xykon's counter to that is... nothing. He doesn't have dimensional anchor, so he has to just to hope every strong wizard he fights is railroaded by the plot basically. This leads me to the next point.
2) I think some people on here misunderstand how energy drain works. There's basically no way the first energy drain could have taken his teleport spells, and if Dorukan didn't prepare any other teleport spells are we to be satisfied with that explanation? Sorcerer trumps the Wizard class because the Wizard teleports out to fight without any way of getting back? The moral I'd take from that would be "if the wizard acts like an idiot and engages in suicidal behavior, sorcerer is the better class", because look at all the things that need to go right for the sorcerer to win:
- The Wizard needs to not prepare using scrying, etc
- The Wizard needs to not protect from negative energy even though this is easy and goes hand in hand with lichs
- The Wizard needs to teleport out to fight you with the wrong spells, and teleports left to bail
- The Wizard needs to fight foolishly
- The Wizard needs to stand there like a dummy while you get 5 spells to 1 of his own.
To me the takeaway would be the sorcerer is the fool, who was bailed by plot armour, not that Wizards are arrogantly overlooking something by underestimating the sorcerer. If you're a moron you're a moron, no matter what class you have.
3) Saying "imagine other stuff was going on between panels" is basically the same thing I was saying; "we need to imagine a better fight to substitute for what actually happened". Personally I can't imagine what this better fight is based on the panels as they are shown, or what spells Dorukan is casting, maybe with enough imagination I could do it (though probably not in a way that makes Dorukan look like anything other than a moron; in which case how did he even live long enough to become Epic?). Nor does the flight spell work that way, being dismissed by energy drain. Maybe I should imagine that happened differently too. In my imagination where I disregard the actual panels I guess Dorukan actually won the fight. Cool!
4) V has less power than Hearta, even with all 3 splices, cos he's operating off his crap base stats and the other 2 splices add nothing except diversity since they're so far below Hearta. It would be like me saying a level 10 wizard is more powerful than an Epic Wizard because of a prestige class that grants him more cantrips; he'd have "more" spells, but it wouldn't make him more powerful. As I said, I believe the author made a lot of revisions to the story to sell this fight, and it ended up much better than it was looking like it'd shape up, but for me it's a cop out from the actual ultimate and complete arcane power that dwarfs any caster to ever live promise. I mean, there were casters who ascended to godhood, never mind Hearta. I think the originaly way the splice was going to work would have lived up to all of this; namely having the levels stack. Unfortunately the revised version is pretty unsatisfying to me.

[dmc91356]

Or, instead of imagining things that make this not work, you could imagine things that make it work. I don't think of wizards as Batman in the OOTS setting because, so far, not a single one has been close to that. YMMV.

[The MunchKING]

So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
1) Even the author is admitting the fight didn't follow the rules satisfactorily, someone quoted him saying as much.

"Quickened energy drain covereth a multitude of sins". Well just that one really, but still.



2)
- The Wizard needs to not prepare using scrying, etc

And the Sorc can't prep... Why?



- The Wizard needs to not protect from negative energy even though this is easy and goes hand in hand with lichs

With that Divine magic he was so fond of casting?



- The Wizard needs to teleport out to fight you with the wrong spells, and teleports left to bail

Energy drain gets rid of all the highest spell slots he had left, and Xkon prepped for the fight.



- The Wizard needs to fight foolishly

Or the Sorc fights Intelligently.



- The Wizard needs to stand there like a dummy while you get 5 spells to 1 of his own.

Well you know casting times are a thing. If Energy Drain takes off all his highest spell slots, that would naturally include pretty much any spell he had Quickened. SO it may be he TRIED to cast but Xykon didn't leave him alone for long enough.



To me the takeaway would be the sorcerer is the fool,

Why? He was the one that was smart. He got protection from his major weakness, and used spells designed to stop the guy he was fighting in the most efficient manner. What's foolish about that?



3) Nor does the flight spell work that way, being dismissed by energy drain. Maybe I should imagine that happened differently too. In my imagination where I disregard the actual panels I guess Dorukan actually won the fight. Cool!

That wasn't that the flight spell was dispelled, it was Duroken didn't concentrate on going up. :D



4) V has less power than Hearta, even with all 3 splices, cos he's operating off his crap base stats and the other 2 splices add nothing except diversity since they're so far below Hearta. It would be like me saying a level 10 wizard is more powerful than an Epic Wizard because of a prestige class that grants him more cantrips; he'd have "more" spells, but it wouldn't make him more powerful.

She had more Epic spell slots. :smallannoyed: This isn't Infinite Cantrips, it's H+G+S number of BEYOND MAXIMUM Magic, and an additional full 3 sets of 20 levels of caster classes to boot.



I mean, there were casters who ascended to godhood, never mind Hearta.

I'm sure you have examples of that in Oots, right? Not just something you made up?

[TooSoon]

"Quickened energy drain covereth a multitude of sins". Well just that one really, but still.



And the Sorc can't prep... Why?



With that Divine magic he was so fond of casting?



Energy drain gets rid of all the highest spell slots he had left, and Xkon prepped for the fight.



Or the Sorc fights Intelligently.



Well you know casting times are a thing. If Energy Drain takes off all his highest spell slots, that would naturally include pretty much any spell he had Quickened. SO it may be he TRIED to cast but Xykon didn't leave him alone for long enough.



Why? He was the one that was smart. He got protection from his major weakness, and used spells designed to stop the guy he was fighting in the most efficient manner. What's foolish about that?



That wasn't that the flight spell was dispelled, it was Duroken didn't concentrate on going up. :D



She had more Epic spell slots. :smallannoyed: This isn't Infinite Cantrips, it's H+G+S number of BEYOND MAXIMUM Magic, and an additional full 3 sets of 20 levels of caster classes to boot.



I'm sure you have examples of that in Oots, right? Not just something you made up?

1) The word quicken appears nowhere in the panel.
2) Quickened energy drains would use level 13 spell slots. Also problematic.
3) Well Dorukan's place is warded by an Epic anti-scrying spell. Xykon is not.
4) There are plenty of ways for Dorukan to protect himself from negative energy
5) Energy drain gets rid of the highest slots first. Teleport is a 5th level spell. It is implausible (or ridiculous, take your pick) for Dorukan to teleport out to fight Xykon, having no way to teleport back.
6) Dorukan isn't casting bad spells in the final sequence. He's casting NO spells at all. Xykon just wails on him while he does nothing. Ridiculous.
7) The sorcerer is the fool for assuming he can beat an Epic wizard with no idea what prep the Wizard has made in the months the siege has gone on, and no way to prevent him bailing to adjust after you show more of your hand. Xykon's strategy relies on Dorukan being an idiot basically, at least in the way the fight is presented. If Dorukan was protected from negative energy, then what?
8) The panel clearly depicts the energy drain somehow dismissing the flight spell, which is ridiculous. Nor does "he lost his concentration work", because he doesn't have to make concentration checks while flying and it requires "no more concentration than walking". How preposterous would a fight be if Roy forgot how to walk in the middle of the fight after being hit with a spell like that? Plus if the spell expires from concentration Dorukan should still float safely to the ground. Even you don't take this justification seriously.
9) V having "more" spells is meaningless when they're all far lower level than the person he's fighting, which is why I used the cantrip example to show how silly this logic is. Hearta is so far beyond the other splices they might as well be cantrips in terms of the level difference. As I said, if you want to be satisfied with this kind of logic you can be. To me it is unsatisfying and feels like a cheat. More accurately it feels like the original way the splice was going to work, with the levels stacking, was retroactively changed to help sell the Xykon fight.
10) OOTS tells us of Elves who ascended to their own pantheon, V even worships one of them.

[Maat Mons]

I'm pretty sure Thor talked about mortals ascending to godhood with the help of pre-existing gods. I think this was while he was talking about how weird it is that the Dark One ascended without anyone's help. Probably, at least one ascended mortal was a spellcaster. Though I don't believe we have any specific cases of ascension to point at other than the Dark One. And I don't think it was ever established what class the Dark One was before ascending.

Speaking of Quicken Spell and Xykon being epic, I suppose 5 spells to 1 is actually doable.
Xykon's Turn: *casts a regular spell*, *casts a Quickened spell*, *casts another quickened spell*
Dorukon's Turn: *cats a regular spell*, *doesn't cast a Quickened spell for whatever reason*
Xykon's Turn: *casts a regular spell*, *casts a Quickened spell*, *casts another … no wait I guess he's dead

It does leave the question of why Dorukon didn't have any Quicken Metamagic Rods.

Edit: Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders other than Roy? Actually, wait, Roy isn't powerful. Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders?

[TooSoon]

I'm pretty sure Thor talked about mortals ascending to godhood with the help of pre-existing gods. I think this was while he was talking about how weird it is that the Dark One ascended without anyone's help. Probably, at least one ascended mortal was a spellcaster. Though I don't believe we have any specific cases of ascension to point at other than the Dark One. And I don't think it was ever established what class the Dark One was before ascending.

Speaking of Quicken Spell and Xykon being epic, I suppose 5 spells to 1 is actually doable.
Xykon's Turn: *casts a regular spell*, *casts a Quickened spell*, *casts another quickened spell*
Dorukon's Turn: *cats a regular spell*, *doesn't cast a Quickened spell for whatever reason*
Xykon's Turn: *casts a regular spell*, *casts a Quickened spell*, *casts another … no wait I guess he's dead

It does leave the question of why Dorukon didn't have any Quicken Metamagic Rods.

Edit: Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders other than Roy? Actually, wait, Roy isn't powerful. Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders?

1) They weren't written as quickened spells, and we know what that looks like.
2) Am I missing something here? Xykon can't cast 2 quickened spells in a row, just 1.
3) I've opined before that it's rather bizarre they haven't gotten V's master involved by now. Maybe they have off panel.

[Maat Mons]

I'll grant you Xykon's spells not being Quickened. I mean, I haven't gone back and looked. But if he didn't say "quickened" when casting them, then by the conventions of this comic, they weren't quickened.

But yes, epic characters can cast multiple Quickened spells in a round. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell)

[TooSoon]

I'll grant you Xykon's spells not being Quickened. I mean, I haven't gone back and looked. But if he didn't say "quickened" when casting them, then by the conventions of this comic, they weren't quickened.

But yes, epic characters can cast multiple Quickened spells in a round. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell)

With an Epic feat we have no indication Xykon has, and has never used since or after then? So just as unsatisfying; and as you agree, in violation of the conventions of the comic.

[DaOldeWolf]

So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
1) Even the author is admitting the fight didn't follow the rules satisfactorily, someone quoted him saying as much. If people don't care, that's cool, but I disagree that there was no more satisfying way of showing it. By showing it in an obviously rules incorrect way it actually undermines "emergent philosophy" Xykon is presenting, because it's not proving his point at all; it's proving if the guy he fights is jobbed then you win because you're cool no matter what point you think you're making. In fact while I'm very partial to the advantages of the sorcerer class it's actually convincing me of the opposite point, because all Dorukan has to do is teleport away and come back with better prep, and Xykon's counter to that is... nothing. He doesn't have dimensional anchor, so he has to just to hope every strong wizard he fights is railroaded by the plot basically. This leads me to the next point.


Yeah and Tsukiko wouldnt have lost against Redcloak if she had checked for the magic wards in Redclaok´s room. And Roy might have beaten Xykon ages ago if he was a wozard like his father. And Belkar wouldnt be constantly losing for failing will saves if he had taken measures earlier. And I could go on and on with examples. A lot of things might happen differently if a character had taken an optimal decision but that is not how life works. People make mistakes all the time, circumstances change, something goes wrong or we make the wrong assumptions.

Its a really flawed premise, you are presenting here. Why would he have to prepare teleport at all? He has some of the best defenses out there. They had even kept Xykon at bay And I dont think there was any establishment of him needing to leave his dungeon that day. So, tell me why would this EPIC person who spent most of later life holed up in a dungeon with nearly unbreakable defenses need to prepare teleportation in his every day situation? What could someone of his level be a big enough threat for him to really need such defensive measure?

Even with the previous knowledge of Xykon being there, Dorukan never actually saw him as an actual threat. He jumped pretty confidently at Xykon probably thinking anything he had prepared that day would be enough to deal with Xykon. I will add that he didnt prepare for the fight with Xykon, he jumped into a fight when he heard about his loved one. It was a fight on an impulse and he wasnt prepared to face one.


2) I think some people on here misunderstand how energy drain works. There's basically no way the first energy drain could have taken his teleport spells, and if Dorukan didn't prepare any other teleport spells are we to be satisfied with that explanation? Sorcerer trumps the Wizard class because the Wizard teleports out to fight without any way of getting back? The moral I'd take from that would be "if the wizard acts like an idiot and engages in suicidal behavior, sorcerer is the better class", because look at all the things that need to go right for the sorcerer to win:
- The Wizard needs to not prepare using scrying, etc
- The Wizard needs to not protect from negative energy even though this is easy and goes hand in hand with lichs
- The Wizard needs to teleport out to fight you with the wrong spells, and teleports left to bail
- The Wizard needs to fight foolishly
- The Wizard needs to stand there like a dummy while you get 5 spells to 1 of his own.
To me the takeaway would be the sorcerer is the fool, who was bailed by plot armour, not that Wizards are arrogantly overlooking something by underestimating the sorcerer. If you're a moron you're a moron, no matter what class you have.

My takeaway from your takeaway is, be perfect, always have the perfect condition in your favor, and always be omniscient and paranoic.

For me the real takeaway from the battle is that sorcerer can beat wizard because different strenghts mean different advantages and disadvantages. Wizard wont always lose but it can lose.



4) V has less power than Hearta, even with all 3 splices, cos he's operating off his crap base stats and the other 2 splices add nothing except diversity since they're so far below Hearta. It would be like me saying a level 10 wizard is more powerful than an Epic Wizard because of a prestige class that grants him more cantrips; he'd have "more" spells, but it wouldn't make him more powerful. As I said, I believe the author made a lot of revisions to the story to sell this fight, and it ended up much better than it was looking like it'd shape up, but for me it's a cop out from the actual ultimate and complete arcane power that dwarfs any caster to ever live promise. I mean, there were casters who ascended to godhood, never mind Hearta. I think the originaly way the splice was going to work would have lived up to all of this; namely having the levels stack. Unfortunately the revised version is pretty unsatisfying to me.

He has the combined spell lists of three epic spellcasters and can even cast them spontaneously. Isnt that enough? One of the two "weaker" wizards has epic teleportation, that one spell above the one that you seem to value so much that you are arguing on the stupidity of another caster for not using. It even gave access to the two barred schools that V has. How is that not amazing enough?

[InvisibleBison]

Edit: Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders other than Roy? Actually, wait, Roy isn't powerful. Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders?

The good guys don't have the corpse of any powerful do-gooders, which means they'd need either true resurrection or wish to bring them back, and their spellcasters aren't capable of casting 9th level spells.

[The MunchKING]

5) Energy drain gets rid of the highest slots first. Teleport is a 5th level spell. It is implausible (or ridiculous, take your pick) for Dorukan to teleport out to fight Xykon, having no way to teleport back.

Highest level UNUSED spell slots, and by that point Dorukan had been throwing out some high level spells. (I actually thought it was more spell slots, but looking at enervation it says one spell slot per negative level. So he must have also been blowing those concentration checks.)


7) The sorcerer is the fool for assuming he can beat an Epic wizard with no idea what prep the Wizard has made in the months the siege has gone on, and no way to prevent him bailing to adjust after you show more of your hand. Xykon's strategy relies on Dorukan being an idiot basically, at least in the way the fight is presented. If Dorukan was protected from negative energy, then what?

He beats him to death like he did the other four or so caster classes he fought? I mean you're acting like Dorukan could counter everything Xykon could do. Not only is it not really possible with what we know Dorukan knew about Xykon's casting capabilities, he rushed out there as soon as Xykon showed him the gem, thus not having time for buffs. Another smart play by Xykon.


8) The panel clearly depicts the energy drain somehow dismissing the flight spell, which is ridiculous.

I have a copy of the book. It doesn't dispel the Magic, he just floats downward as he's taking more energy drains.


Nor does "he lost his concentration work", because he doesn't have to make concentration checks while flying and it requires "no more concentration than walking". How preposterous would a fight be if Roy forgot how to walk in the middle of the fight after being hit with a spell like that?

Yeah Roy has NEVER lost the ability to walk after being hit with a spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html).


9) V having "more" spells is meaningless when they're all far lower level than the person he's fighting, which is why I used the cantrip example to show how silly this logic is. Hearta is so far beyond the other splices they might as well be cantrips in terms of the level difference.

Not true. As we saw, Energy Drain can beat even Epic mages. 14 extra Energy Drains is way better than Hestia alone.


10) OOTS tells us of Elves who ascended to their own pantheon, V even worships one of them.

And you of course have proof they were Arcane Casters, and not Rangers, Druids, or any of the other stereotypical Elvish classes, right?

[The MunchKING]

Edit: Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders other than Roy? Actually, wait, Roy isn't powerful. Is there any reason established why the good guys haven't resurrected any powerful do-gooders?

They died more than a score of years ago, their souls were bound, or they died of old age; depending on which powerful do-gooders you're talking about.

Also I guess the Souls refused to come back (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) that time they tried.

[Gurgeh]

Even if you handwave the body requirement (oh, someone just cut off a finger or the like and ran to Durkon!), how many "powerful do-gooders" in the story are even dead in the first place?

The Scribblers are all out of bounds for various reasons: Girard and Soon died from old age, Dorukan and Lirian are soul-bound, Serini's still alive, and Kraagor was clearly beyond the reach of even epic magic.

Shojo explicitly refused to come back from the dead (and his power was purely political and consequently wouldn't add up to much even if he has a change of heart in the afterlife). The various resistance fighters and elven commandos in Azure City were mid-level and aren't really going to have anything to bring to the table.

I'm away from book but I'm pretty sure Fyron was zombified or soulbound or something else that made his return to life practically impossible (otherwise Eugene would have been able to rez him after Xykon left).

That leaves... who, exactly? Miko? Setting aside the fact that her arc is clearly done, she's also not going to be offering anything game-changing from a purely mechanical point of view. At this point O-Chul and Lien are probably more capable than she was, and Roy significantly more so.

[georgie_leech]

And you of course have proof they were Arcane Casters, and not Rangers, Druids, or any of the other stereotypical Elvish classes, right?

I don't know if we know anything about the elves, but hey, we do have knowledge of at least one of the few mortals to ever ascend! The Dark One was clearly some kind of Wizard, right? Definitely not some kind of Martial Leader of mengoblins. Clearly it's acts of Arcane Power that make someone a God and not, say, the collective beliefs of a large number of non-magical mortals, right?

[Peelee]

So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
1) Even the author is admitting the fight didn't follow the rules satisfactorily, someone quoted him saying as much
The author was quoted as saying that the fight would not satisfy all people, so he chose to not worry about satisfying all people. That is different from saying that the fight did not follow the rules satisfactorily. Also, as for "following the rules", see below:

Bolding/snipping mine:
2) I think some people on here misunderstand how energy drain works.
[snip]
Nor does the flight spell work that way
Italics not mine:
If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.


4) V has less power than Hearta
V had more arcane power than Hearta, since V has V's arcane power and Hearta's arcane power and two other arcane casters' arcane power. V was specifically only ever offered raw arcane power. Stats do not come into play.

[RatElemental]

Even if you handwave the body requirement (oh, someone just cut off a finger or the like and ran to Durkon!), how many "powerful do-gooders" in the story are even dead in the first place?

The Scribblers are all out of bounds for various reasons: Girard and Soon died from old age, Dorukan and Lirian are soul-bound, Serini's still alive, and Kraagor was clearly beyond the reach of even epic magic.

Shojo explicitly refused to come back from the dead (and his power was purely political and consequently wouldn't add up to much even if he has a change of heart in the afterlife). The various resistance fighters and elven commandos in Azure City were mid-level and aren't really going to have anything to bring to the table.

I'm away from book but I'm pretty sure Fyron was zombified or soulbound or something else that made his return to life practically impossible (otherwise Eugene would have been able to rez him after Xykon left).

That leaves... who, exactly? Miko? Setting aside the fact that her arc is clearly done, she's also not going to be offering anything game-changing from a purely mechanical point of view. At this point O-Chul and Lien are probably more capable than she was, and Roy significantly more so.

There were probably at least some black dragons that had a good alignment who were caught up in the familicide, and dragons aren't anything to sneeze at even from a young age. Milk Dudes was also "like unto [a] tiny refreshing god" assuming it's possible to raise him, though we have no idea what alignment he was. The entire Creed of Stone probably had at least one good character too, and they were all pretty powerful clerics. If Horace didn't die of old age it's possible to raise him, I'm not sure he's been dead longer than 160 years and even if he was it'd still technically be possible; an epic resurrection spell that could reach back to the very first moment of the current world wouldn't be that hard to make or cast. Ho Thahn would also be worthy I'd say.

Oh, and then there's Solt Lurkyurg, clearly the greatest force of good to ever exist.

[ericgrau]

Xykon somehow got an item to protect himself from positive energy, so Dorukan could have managed it if he wanted to.

Death effects are one of the basic things optimized characters defend themselves against at high level, because dying is bad. OotS characters aren't optimized though, so I guess Dorukan never figured this out despite making it to epic levels?

Search the forums for all the “basic magic items any smart high level player surely must have”, make an exhaustive list, including custom items like death ward apparently, and I’m sure it will exceed PC WBL 20+ fold, let alone NPC WBL. And yeah that’s epic WBL or it’d be 500+ fold. Defensive items in particular are notoriously bad offenders. And I’m sure nobody in OotS is perfectly optimized either. But even if they were I doubt it would remotely resemble the defend-against-everything concept that keeps appearing. Unless made affordable by infinite loop, in which case there’s no plot left… and via the same method they can likely bypass any defense too. Instead usually the winner has a good attack plan and limited defenses that aren’t so narrow.

But also I think Xykon is probably higher level and he’s been underestimated many times. He seems to imply that with big enough hammer statements. And usually ya if you’re a few or several levels higher it’s hard to be beat even if you’re not otherwise ideal. That and/or Dorukon would have done better if he stayed in the dungeon.

[hungrycrow]

Search the forums for all the “basic magic items any smart high level player surely must have”, make an exhaustive list, including custom items like death ward apparently, and I’m sure it will exceed PC WBL 20+ fold, let alone NPC WBL. And yeah that’s epic WBL or it’d be 500+ fold. Defensive items in particular are notoriously bad offenders. And I’m sure nobody in OotS is perfectly optimized either. But even if they were I doubt it would remotely resemble the defend-against-everything concept that keeps appearing. Unless made affordable by infinite loop, in which case there’s no plot left… and via the same method they can likely bypass any defense too. Instead usually the winner has a good attack plan and limited defenses that aren’t so narrow.

Magikeeper posted such a list earlier in this thread. I agree getting immunity to every conceivable thing would be very expensive, and any real player would have to cut out some of it. I can't speak for all players out there, but if I were making an affordable and conducive-to-actual-play list of items, defenses against death effects and mind control would be pretty big priorities.

Another question I thought of that probably has no answer and doesn't matter: do the Scribblers have NPC wealth or PC wealth? They were an adventuring party back in the day.

[Morty]

So to focus on some of the replies I've seen:
2) I think some people on here misunderstand how energy drain works. There's basically no way the first energy drain could have taken his teleport spells, and if Dorukan didn't prepare any other teleport spells are we to be satisfied with that explanation? Sorcerer trumps the Wizard class because the Wizard teleports out to fight without any way of getting back? The moral I'd take from that would be "if the wizard acts like an idiot and engages in suicidal behavior, sorcerer is the better class", because look at all the things that need to go right for the sorcerer to win:
- The Wizard needs to not prepare using scrying, etc
- The Wizard needs to not protect from negative energy even though this is easy and goes hand in hand with lichs
- The Wizard needs to teleport out to fight you with the wrong spells, and teleports left to bail
- The Wizard needs to fight foolishly
- The Wizard needs to stand there like a dummy while you get 5 spells to 1 of his own.
To me the takeaway would be the sorcerer is the fool, who was bailed by plot armour, not that Wizards are arrogantly overlooking something by underestimating the sorcerer. If you're a moron you're a moron, no matter what class you have.

You seem intent on reading more into this fight's purpose than was remotely present. This fight isn't about whether a sorcerer can beat a wizard or which class is better. It's about a sorcerer beating a wizard, using brute force and style. The only part making it not a formality (because we already know Dorukan will lose and the real drama happens below) is that it encapsulates Xykon's personal philosophy, such as it is. The author clearly doesn't care about the comparative virtues of sorcerers and wizards nearly as much as the people demanding exhaustive evidence as to how a wizard could possibly lose.

[Maat Mons]

@ericgrau: You don't need custom items for Death Ward. Book of Exalted Deeds has the Soulfire armor ability, and Dragon 342 has the Ring of Death Ward.

[Riftwolf]

Just a rules question, I'm taking a stab at staying out Dorukan and the SRD isn't clear; do Enervation and Energy Drain knock out one spell slot per negative level, or per casting?
Also, what spells does Dorukan cast in the SOS fight? I remember a Gate and Prismatic Spray, but not others.
The hypothesis is this; when Dorukan popped out of his castle, he was buffed to the nines with as much ARCANE magic as he could muster, which wiped out his lower levels. He assumed he could steamroller Xykon with the high level spells. By the time of the Energy Drain spam, he was running low on spell slots and Energy Drain (something an arcane caster can't cast without burning XP) knocked out his remaining spell slots and escape plan.

From what I understand, epic wizards don't get extra regular spell slots after 20th. If his epic spells were Pure Heart Ward, Rift Seal and Cloister, that doesn't give him any offensive epic spells. With a 24 INT (being very generous) he'd get 4/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4 spells per day. That's not that much if you start piling on buffs, and bear in mind the fight went on a while (wizards talk a big game but generally only work five minutes a day).

[brian 333]

If those items exist in the campaign setting, and if they are available in such quantity that someone who owns one happens to live near enough for the buyer to know about it, and if the seller happens to have two and is willing to part with one.

The art of strategy is not about dreaming up the ultimate attack/defense. It is about making the most of what you have in a situation. In the situation Dorukan may not have had any spells that would make a difference after his initial attack failed.

Dorukan: Dancing Lights
Xykon: Dude! Really? Why? Oh, and Energy Drain.
Dorukan: It was supposed to distract you.
Xykon: Didn't work, dumbass. Oh, and Energy Drain again.

Also: sorcerors do beat wizards in a fair fight. Extra spell slots make a bigger difference than versatility in a duel. That's why when I play an arcane caster I always get the party stealth specialist to build as a mage-killer. It's really hard to lose a duel when all you have to do is counterspell until the enemy gets a Magic Weapon-buffed shortsword in the kidney.

[ericgrau]

@ericgrau: You don't need custom items for Death Ward. Book of Exalted Deeds has the Soulfire armor ability, and Dragon 342 has the Ring of Death Ward.

+4 armor enchantment or 60,000 gp item that are both slotted kinda makes my point for me. There are 10,000 threads like this talking about at least 30 different if not 300 absolute “must have” defenses that should be “near the top of everyone’s list”. Most costing in the 10’s of k’s.

Really Dorukan’s most realistic defense was his dungeon which he sacrificed in a rash action. And once you’re toe to toe it’s more about who hits hardest and who hits first than what you’re immune to. You can afford some minor defenses that boost your odds 20% or 30% here and there. 95% of individual immunities are too niche as above unless you get a package deal via race, template or some such. Even then the attacker may switch attacks, often at little or no cost.

[Gurgeh]

Just a rules question, I'm taking a stab at staying out Dorukan and the SRD isn't clear; do Enervation and Energy Drain knock out one spell slot per negative level, or per casting?
One spell slot per negative level, starting from the highest unused. It's pretty vicious.


Also, what spells does Dorukan cast in the SOS fight? I remember a Gate and Prismatic Spray, but not others.
Not many spells are shown, and most of them are not named.

After Dorukan teleports in, he knocks Xykon down with an unidentified spell. Once they're dueling in the air, he starts with Prismatic Spray, follows up with an unidentifed blast of flame, and then uses an unnamed spell that is probably Meteor Swarm (it looks basically identical to Xykon's); after that it's Gate. They're next shown with clashing dweomers (similar to Darth V facing off against Xykon in 653 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)); Dorukan then uses another unnamed blast of flame, and then that's the end of him.


By the time of the Energy Drain spam, he was running low on spell slots and Energy Drain (something an arcane caster can't cast without burning XP) knocked out his remaining spell slots and escape plan.
Emphasis mine - I don't think that's correct? The only listed components for Energy Drain are Verbal and Somatic.


With a 24 INT (being very generous) he'd get 4/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4 spells per day. That's not that much if you start piling on buffs, and bear in mind the fight went on a while (wizards talk a big game but generally only work five minutes a day).
We don't know for a fact that Dorukan was a specialist but realistically he's probably is; generalist wizards are ultra rare and Dorukan does have a bunch of abjuration associations (Cloister, the ward on his gate, etc.) - so there are reasonable odds for him to have one more spell per level for everything there.

Broadly speaking, though, I think your assessment is good!

[ericgrau]

Random nit pick: I think 30 int is pretty reasonable at epic level and 36+ is generous. All the different random buffs add up. Even if you’re smart about magic items and don’t just dump a huge amount in one stat, a +4 or +6 item is reasonable at epic level and you get 5+ from level ups alone. So 24 is a bare minimum for a vanilla NPC using only the NPC array and 26 is still low-ish if anything.

Ya many slots are burned in the morning on buffs, wards and so on. Heck the dungeon may have had a few daily wards that couldn’t be made permanent. Also probably where a lot of Dorukon’s WBL went.

[Gandariel]

This fact that "V was cheated and the prophecy was not fulfilled" is news to me, I really liked how it went down, and it 100% made sense to me.


No mortal who ever lived has ever held as much arcane power as V then, if power is measured as "amount and variety of high level spells".
And incidentally, that's exactly how V measured power at the time.
So the IFCC 100% delivered on the promise, V knew what she was getting and showed no misunderstanding or complaint.

How she lost, yeah, it's because she was dumb.
Her surprise round, for example.
Time stop, countered by the trap, and quickened chain lightning, that didn't hurt Xykon.

In both occasions, V did not fail because she didn't have enough "power" (i.e., enough high level slots).
She failed because she didn't have enough power.


Also, on the Dorukan fight. I agree that it was disappointing how weak and unprepared Dorukan looked. In an ideal world Xykon would have still won in the same way, but it would have been shown in a more clever way.

Maybe Dorukan tries different things, only one of them works and damages Xykon, but he can't do it again because he prepared 1x of 10 different attack plans.
Xykon also tries different spells, and as soon as he finds one that works he keep going with that until he wins.

Maybe Xykon does energy drain (or another spell), and Dorukan has a counter measure it for the first one, but nothing for the next ones.

Overall, yes it could have been shown better, but the Giant's point stands:
The "how it happens" is not that important, since we already know who wins.

[hungrycrow]

So for fun I tried to make a good list of defensive items and see how affordable it is.

Wings of Flying(54k) Third Eye Conceal(120k) Soulfire Bracers (25k) Ring of Freedom of Movement(40k) Dragon's Eye Amulet(55k) Periapt of Health(7.4k) Periapt of Proof against Poison(27k).

For about 330k gold that gives you all day flight, freedom of movement, blindsense, and immunity to death effects, negative energy, divination, mind-affecting, disease, and poison. Well within the budget of a 20th level character and still leaves you room for other things, like more defensive items. The real problem is your limited number of item slots. So you have to pay extra and hope your DM's fantasy Costco lets you commission combined items.
If you're willing to settle for once per day items or cast some of these yourself, you save a lot of money and open up room for more defenses.

Note this is for fun, and not a list I would expect Dorukan or any OotS character to have.

[Morty]

We don't know for a fact that Dorukan was a specialist but realistically he's probably is; generalist wizards are ultra rare and Dorukan does have a bunch of abjuration associations (Cloister, the ward on his gate, etc.) - so there are reasonable odds for him to have one more spell per level for everything there.

Broadly speaking, though, I think your assessment is good!

I wouldn't know (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=11637535&postcount=35) about generalists being "ultra rare".



The only things I feel less bound by than the rules are common player trends. I promise that I never choose or don't choose options for characters based on what a typical player is likely to do in that situation. Whether something is popular or unpopular among players has no bearing on whether one of my fictional characters chooses to take it. I'm not attempting to model a D&D campaign with statistical accuracy and I don't feel bound to follow trends, probabilities, or the Internet's consensus on what are useful character options.

That being said, Tsukiko is supposed to be a necromancer, but it looks like I gave her too many schools. Oh well. I guess she breaks the rules.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dorukan's specialization or lack thereof has simply never been a consideration.

[TooSoon]

Xykon had him under siege for what 6 months? In my book the fool is the one who assumes the Epic wizard hasn't prepped against you in all this time, including by using scrying and other magic to determine how to beat you. Xykon isn't a fool in this story because rule of cool, not because of some other reason.

[Ortho]

Xykon had him under siege for what 6 months? In my book the fool is the one who assumes the Epic wizard hasn't prepped against you in all this time, including by using scrying and other magic to determine how to beat you. Xykon isn't a fool in this story because rule of cool, not because of some other reason.

I think you're underestimating the sheer arrogance of Dorukan. You call it a siege, he calls it an impenetrable dungeon. Look at it from his point of view: Dorukan dismissed Xykon as a non-threat because Xykon made zero progress in penetrating the dungeon in six months. Why would he have spent resources fighting Xykon when he could just sit in his dungeon and ignore the lich completely?

[Jason]

So for fun I tried to make a good list of defensive items and see how affordable it is.

Wings of Flying(54k) Third Eye Conceal(120k) Soulfire Bracers (25k) Ring of Freedom of Movement(40k) Dragon's Eye Amulet(55k) Periapt of Health(7.4k) Periapt of Proof against Poison(27k).

For about 330k gold that gives you all day flight, freedom of movement, blindsense, and immunity to death effects, negative energy, divination, mind-affecting, disease, and poison. Well within the budget of a 20th level character and still leaves you room for other things, like more defensive items. The real problem is your limited number of item slots. So you have to pay extra and hope your DM's fantasy Costco lets you commission combined items.
If you're willing to settle for once per day items or cast some of these yourself, you save a lot of money and open up room for more defenses.

Are these items still affordable for someone who used his wealth to build a dungeon to house all the creatures that weren't updated to 3.5 and fill it with the strongest magical wards he could buy, and who ran out of money doing this, to the point that the water ward got cut from his dungeon?

[hungrycrow]

Are these items still affordable for someone who used his wealth to build a dungeon to house all the creatures that weren't updated to 3.5 and fill it with the strongest magical wards he could buy, and who ran out of money doing this, to the point that the water ward got cut from his dungeon?

Probably not, but dungeons in general are way beyond one PC's personal wealth. Not sure how Dorukan paid for it all, or if it involved selling off all of his old adventuring gear. Serini apparently managed to make an elaborate magical dungeon while still keeping a good amount of gear.

[Doug Lampert]

So for fun I tried to make a good list of defensive items and see how affordable it is.

Wings of Flying(54k) Third Eye Conceal(120k) Soulfire Bracers (25k) Ring of Freedom of Movement(40k) Dragon's Eye Amulet(55k) Periapt of Health(7.4k) Periapt of Proof against Poison(27k).

For about 330k gold that gives you all day flight, freedom of movement, blindsense, and immunity to death effects, negative energy, divination, mind-affecting, disease, and poison. Well within the budget of a 20th level character and still leaves you room for other things, like more defensive items. The real problem is your limited number of item slots. So you have to pay extra and hope your DM's fantasy Costco lets you commission combined items.
If you're willing to settle for once per day items or cast some of these yourself, you save a lot of money and open up room for more defenses.

Note this is for fun, and not a list I would expect Dorukan or any OotS character to have.

Throw in that your bracers of armor need to have heavy fortification for a +5 to cost, for immunity to crits and precision damage. (36K if you are counting on epic mage armor for the actual armor class.)

You also need continuous true seeing.

[Maat Mons]

I'm really enjoying our discussion of shopping lists for hypothetical 20th-level Wizards. So I've decided to expand on mine from earlier.

Arms

Bracers of Armor (+1, Soulfire, Proof Against Transmutation)1000001100000
Wand Bracelet120001.518000
118000


Body

Thistledown Padded Armor4051405
+1, Heavy Fortification, Gleaming81000181000
Called200012000
Glamered270012700
86105


Face

Artificer's Monocle15001.52250
Mask of True Seeing75000175000
Third Eye Clarity30001.54500
+6 Intelligence36000136000
117750


Feet

Anklet of Translocation14001.52100
Cloudwalker Anklets50000150000
52100


Hands

Head

Ring 1

Ring of Feather Falling22001.53300
Ring of Freedom of Movement400001.560000
Ring of Sustenance25001.53750
Ring of Mental Fortitude1100001110000
177050


Ring 2

Shoulders

Throat

Enduring Amulet15001.52250
Hand of the Mage9001.51350
Necklace of Adaptation90001.513500
Periapt of Health74001.511100
Periapt of Proof Against Poison27000127000
+6 Constitution36000136000
91200


Torso

Shiftweave5001.5750
Tunic of Steady Spellcasting250012500
+5 Saves25000125000
28250


Waist

Belt of Battle12000112000
Belt of Hidden Pouches50001.57500
Healing Belt7501.51125
20625


Tools

Blessed Book12500112500
Fortifying Bedroll300013000
Infinite Scrollcase180011800
Instant Tent900019000
Scrying Shard135011350
27650


Total: 718730

So that gets you Death Ward, immunity to transmutations, Heavy Fortification, 20% miss chance, True Seeing, "flight," Freedom of Movement, no need for food and water, immunity to mind-affecting, no need for air, immunity to disease, and immunity to poison.

Unfulfilled Desires

Airship
Casting Glove
Ghost Ward Armor
Manuals
Metamagic Rods
Ring of Universal Energy Resistance, Greater
Tomes
Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt
+5 Deflection
+5 Natural Armor
+6 Dexterity
+6 Wisdom

Of course, if you're willing to take an item creation feat or two, you can get most of those for half price. So you'd be able to get a lot of that extra stuff I listed at the end too without going over budget.

[hungrycrow]

I'm really enjoying our discussion of shopping lists for hypothetical 20th-level Wizards. So I've decided to expand on mine from earlier.

Arms

Bracers of Armor (+1, Soulfire, Proof Against Transmutation)1000001100000
Wand Bracelet120001.518000
118000


Body

Thistledown Padded Armor4051405
+1, Heavy Fortification, Gleaming81000181000
Called200012000
Glamered270012700
86105


Face

Artificer's Monocle15001.52250
Mask of True Seeing75000175000
Third Eye Clarity30001.54500
+6 Intelligence36000136000
117750


Feet

Anklet of Translocation14001.52100
Cloudwalker Anklets50000150000
52100


Hands

Head

Ring 1

Ring of Feather Falling22001.53300
Ring of Freedom of Movement400001.560000
Ring of Sustenance25001.53750
Ring of Mental Fortitude1100001110000
177050


Ring 2

Shoulders

Throat

Enduring Amulet15001.52250
Hand of the Mage9001.51350
Necklace of Adaptation90001.513500
Periapt of Health74001.511100
Periapt of Proof Against Poison27000127000
+6 Constitution36000136000
91200


Torso

Shiftweave5001.5750
Tunic of Steady Spellcasting250012500
+5 Saves25000125000
28250


Waist

Belt of Battle12000112000
Belt of Hidden Pouches50001.57500
Healing Belt7501.51125
20625


Tools

Blessed Book12500112500
Fortifying Bedroll300013000
Infinite Scrollcase180011800
Instant Tent900019000
Scrying Shard135011350
27650


Total: 718730

So that gets you Death Ward, immunity to transmutations, Heavy Fortification, 20% miss chance, True Seeing, "flight," Freedom of Movement, no need for food and water, immunity to mind-affecting, no need for air, immunity to disease, and immunity to poison.

Unfulfilled Desires

Airship
Casting Glove
Ghost Ward Armor
Manuals
Metamagic Rods
Ring of Universal Energy Resistance, Greater
Tomes
Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt
+5 Deflection
+5 Natural Armor
+6 Dexterity
+6 Wisdom

Of course, if you're willing to take an item creation feat or two, you can get most of those for half price. So you'd be able to get a lot of that extra stuff I listed at the end too without going over budget.

It's a good list, I wouldn't have thought of defense against transmutation. If we're talking 20th lvl wizards, would it be better to cover a few things like mind-affecting immunity or flight with your own spells and save a few thousand?

[Maat Mons]

Yeah, you'd probably be better off taking the money I spent on things that overlap with your spells, and spending it on something else.

Some of the decisions I made there reflect a weird sort of paranoia. For example, instead of getting a Cowl of Warding, which provides actual Mind Blank, I got a Ring of Mental Fortitude, which protects against mind-affecting effects, but not divinations. I did this because I'm worried that, when I take off my hood in the king's court, as manners dictate, someone will choose that exact moment to hit me with a mind-control spell. So I'd wind up still needing to cast Mind Blank on myself anyway, to keep people from spying on me.

But, given that I'm planning to cast Mind Blank every day anyway, why did I bother buying an item that overlaps the benefits of it? Because a Dispel targeted on me, or even an area Dispel, can remove Mind Blank. But to deprive me of the effects of a magic item, the Dispel would need to be targeted at that specific item. And if I'm feeling especially paranoid, I can wear a glove over the hand the ring is on, to block line of effect for Dispel.

I can't think of any particular problem with using Overland Flight in place of an expensive item though. I mean, it only gives you average maneuverability, which means you can't hover. But there are ways around that which cost much less than the 50k I spent on Air Walk. And unlike Air Walk and the various wing-based magic items, Overland Flight makes you immune to trip.

So there's definitely room for improvement. I left a lot of AC on the table, for one thing. A lot. 16 points of normal AC and 10 points of touch AC, just from the things I though of. And there are probably more I didn't think of. It's one of my biggest regrets with that list, along with not having my own personal airship, not having a giant pile of Metamagic Rods, and not continuously having resistance 30 to all energy types. *Sigh*

[hungrycrow]

Yeah, you'd probably be better off taking the money I spent on things that overlap with your spells, and spending it on something else.

Some of the decisions I made there reflect a weird sort of paranoia. For example, instead of getting a Cowl of Warding, which provides actual Mind Blank, I got a Ring of Mental Fortitude, which protects against mind-affecting effects, but not divinations. I did this because I'm worried that, when I take off my hood in the king's court, as manners dictate, someone will choose that exact moment to hit me with a mind-control spell. So I'd wind up still needing to cast Mind Blank on myself anyway, to keep people from spying on me.

But, given that I'm planning to cast Mind Blank every day anyway, why did I bother buying an item that overlaps the benefits of it? Because a Dispel targeted on me, or even an area Dispel, can remove Mind Blank. But to deprive me of the effects of a magic item, the Dispel would need to be targeted at that specific item. And if I'm feeling especially paranoid, I can wear a glove over the hand the ring is on, to block line of effect for Dispel.

I can't think of any particular problem with using Overland Flight in place of an expensive item though. I mean, it only gives you average maneuverability, which means you can't hover. But there are ways around that which cost much less than the 50k I spent on Air Walk. And unlike Air Walk and the various wing-based magic items, Overland Flight makes you immune to trip.

So there's definitely room for improvement. I left a lot of AC on the table, for one thing. A lot. 16 points of normal AC and 10 points of touch AC, just from the things I though of. And there are probably more I didn't think of. It's one of my biggest regrets with that list, along with not having my own personal airship, not having a giant pile of Metamagic Rods, and not continuously having resistance 30 to all energy types. *Sigh*

Maybe get a ring of spellbattle(super broken for its price) or a ring of counterspells and just block dispel attempts. That'd save you like 80k on the ring of mental fortitude.

Having all the Heart of X element spells gives you heavy fortification plus a bunch of other benefits. Could be worth using those instead of the armor.

Does your paranoid wizard need trueseeing all the time? Maybe get Eyes of Truth for when you need it on the spot, and cast it when you need longer uses.

[Riftwolf]

Emphasis mine - I don't think that's correct? The only listed components for Energy Drain are Verbal and Somatic.


You're right, I meant Death Ward, which arcane casters can only duplicate using Wish, which has an xp component. I was writing too quick.

Now knowing that Energy Drain can wipe out multiple spell slots per casting, it seems like the perfect spell for a sorcerer to spam against a wizard, and I believe the multiple energy drains in a row wasn't artistic licence; Dorukan was literally down to cantrips after his last spell we saw him cast.

[danielxcutter]

You're right, I meant Death Ward, which arcane casters can only duplicate using Wish, which has an xp component. I was writing too quick.

Now knowing that Energy Drain can wipe out multiple spell slots per casting, it seems like the perfect spell for a sorcerer to spam against a wizard, and I believe the multiple energy drains in a row wasn't artistic licence; Dorukan was literally down to cantrips after his last spell we saw him cast.

Quite possible; Energy Drain bestows 2d4 negative levels per casting, which is an average of five negative levels. That's already enough to nuke every single one of Dorukan's epic slots, and that's assuming he hadn't used a slot or two already that day.



Also regarding the Soul Splices, here's some of my observations and headcanons.


The splices do grant V their spell lists and spell slots as when they were alive, using their stats; otherwise, V wouldn't have been able to use Jephton's spells at all, and probably not any of the epic spells due to not meeting the requirements. This likely doesn't mean V was a Wizard 60+/Sorcerer 20+; V's an evoker, Haerta a necromancer, and Ganonron a conjurer. It was probably treated a bit like the gestalt alternative rules, except using someone else's spell slots instead and with a hefty amount of LA. It actually doesn't have to be that high; it only has to be 7 higher than the higher end of what CR creatures Darth V would likely be fighting. An ECL of 30~40 is high, but not as ridiculous as V being treated as taking all those levels.
This probably means V didn't get any stat bonuses or such from that. While their Intelligence only matters for their own spell slots, it also means they only had like 14 HD or so, and a piss-poor Constitution. At the very least, it doesn't appear that access to their epic spellcasting doesn't mean access to epic Concentration bonuses. It also means their BAB still sucks, which is probably why they missed Xykon with the Quickened Dimensional Anchor. It'd also mean they'd actually have way lower save bonuses, AC, and hit points than a caster who'd actually gotten up to a comparable level.
The splicing does let V instantly refresh all four sets of spell slots due to the rejuvenation, so V could tailor their own slots as well as Haerta's and Ganonron's to the ABD fight, but that doesn't mean such spells would help against Xykon since V wasn't planning on fighting him when they first took the deal.
The splices do fill in some of the weaknesses V's build has; the two schools they've barred and an extra pool of floating slots just in case something comes up that can't be handled with the other three lists. It doesn't do anything about the action economy, though; while V did partly make up for that with loads of Quickened spells it means V's burst damage probably wasn't much higher than any one of the Splices, if at all.
Due to the IFCC's agreement with the Evil gods, V can't replicate divine magic whatsoever. This means all that power doesn't help protect against spells like Energy Drain. The splices do provide some protection against negative levels... by diffusing them across the splices, which also weakens(at least temporarily) their casting by significant amounts. Though that's still a lot more protection than Dorukan had, I guess.


Even if V did keep all three Splices and used them intelligently(and not doing so was kind of the problem in the first place)... I'm not quite sure if it'd have been quite enough against Xykon.

Oh sure, Darth V at full power would have a positively ridiculous number and variety of spells at disposal. The problem is, well, Xykon can spam Energy Drains and Splicing inherently prevents you from protecting against that on your own. And there's only so many spells Darth V could use at once. Even ignoring that... well, V's still a mid-level caster with half the hit points of Xykon at best.

Of course most characters are "played" hideously unoptimal, so if a smarter player had control of Darth V in a game maybe they'd beat Xykon; he's considerably more optimized than most casters in the comic but that bar was too low in the first place. If Darth V could beat Xykon, I'd say that's as indicative of OotS being unoptimized as heck as much as triple-Splicing being OP.

[TooSoon]

Quite possible; Energy Drain bestows 2d4 negative levels per casting, which is an average of five negative levels. That's already enough to nuke every single one of Dorukan's epic slots, and that's assuming he hadn't used a slot or two already that day.



Also regarding the Soul Splices, here's some of my observations and headcanons.


The splices do grant V their spell lists and spell slots as when they were alive, using their stats; otherwise, V wouldn't have been able to use Jephton's spells at all, and probably not any of the epic spells due to not meeting the requirements. This likely doesn't mean V was a Wizard 60+/Sorcerer 20+; V's an evoker, Haerta a necromancer, and Ganonron a conjurer. It was probably treated a bit like the gestalt alternative rules, except using someone else's spell slots instead and with a hefty amount of LA. It actually doesn't have to be that high; it only has to be 7 higher than the higher end of what CR creatures Darth V would likely be fighting. An ECL of 30~40 is high, but not as ridiculous as V being treated as taking all those levels.
This probably means V didn't get any stat bonuses or such from that. While their Intelligence only matters for their own spell slots, it also means they only had like 14 HD or so, and a piss-poor Constitution. At the very least, it doesn't appear that access to their epic spellcasting doesn't mean access to epic Concentration bonuses. It also means their BAB still sucks, which is probably why they missed Xykon with the Quickened Dimensional Anchor. It'd also mean they'd actually have way lower save bonuses, AC, and hit points than a caster who'd actually gotten up to a comparable level.
The splicing does let V instantly refresh all four sets of spell slots due to the rejuvenation, so V could tailor their own slots as well as Haerta's and Ganonron's to the ABD fight, but that doesn't mean such spells would help against Xykon since V wasn't planning on fighting him when they first took the deal.
The splices do fill in some of the weaknesses V's build has; the two schools they've barred and an extra pool of floating slots just in case something comes up that can't be handled with the other three lists. It doesn't do anything about the action economy, though; while V did partly make up for that with loads of Quickened spells it means V's burst damage probably wasn't much higher than any one of the Splices, if at all.
Due to the IFCC's agreement with the Evil gods, V can't replicate divine magic whatsoever. This means all that power doesn't help protect against spells like Energy Drain. The splices do provide some protection against negative levels... by diffusing them across the splices, which also weakens(at least temporarily) their casting by significant amounts. Though that's still a lot more protection than Dorukan had, I guess.


Even if V did keep all three Splices and used them intelligently(and not doing so was kind of the problem in the first place)... I'm not quite sure if it'd have been quite enough against Xykon.

Oh sure, Darth V at full power would have a positively ridiculous number and variety of spells at disposal. The problem is, well, Xykon can spam Energy Drains and Splicing inherently prevents you from protecting against that on your own. And there's only so many spells Darth V could use at once. Even ignoring that... well, V's still a mid-level caster with half the hit points of Xykon at best.

Of course most characters are "played" hideously unoptimal, so if a smarter player had control of Darth V in a game maybe they'd beat Xykon; he's considerably more optimized than most casters in the comic but that bar was too low in the first place. If Darth V could beat Xykon, I'd say that's as indicative of OotS being unoptimized as heck as much as triple-Splicing being OP.

The whole reason for taking away the Hearta splice was because it wasn't plausible Xykon could take V with her... at all. The author dropping several times mentions that she was much more powerful than the others, and had most of the necromancy, to help justify Xykon's win. Familicide was statted out to something like level 128 if I remember correctly, and it was impressive someone got it down to that. Xykon is incredibly vulnerable to necromancy from a caster well above his level (and it would further negate the deal/prophecy if he wasn't weaker). Hearta getting taken away was the author going "oh crap, I've made him too powerful for the plot to fly, time to start walking this thing back".

PS; there are items you can get to protect from negative energy you know...

PPS: we know the levels didn't stack, particularly because Superb Dispelling wouldn't have worked if they did.

[Morty]

Familicide was statted out to something like level 128 if I remember correctly, and it was impressive someone got it down to that.

Familicide was never statted out in the comic at any point.


Xykon is incredibly vulnerable to necromancy from a caster well above his level (and it would further negate the deal/prophecy if he wasn't weaker). Hearta getting taken away was the author going "oh crap, I've made him too powerful for the plot to fly, time to start walking this thing back".

Once again, you're making claims about the writing process and the motives behind it that are pure conjecture at best. There's no reason to assume losing Haerta wasn't part of the plot from the moment it was laid out.

[danielxcutter]

The whole reason for taking away the Hearta splice was because it wasn't plausible Xykon could take V with her... at all. The author dropping several times mentions that she was much more powerful than the others, and had most of the necromancy, to help justify Xykon's win. Familicide was statted out to something like level 128 if I remember correctly, and it was impressive someone got it down to that. Xykon is incredibly vulnerable to necromancy from a caster well above his level (and it would further negate the deal/prophecy if he wasn't weaker). Hearta getting taken away was the author going "oh crap, I've made him too powerful for the plot to fly, time to start walking this thing back".

Uh... most necromancy doesn't actually work that well on undead, except for Undeath to Death and a few buffs and utility spells? Undead are immune to death effects, negative energy actually heals them, Horrid Wilting explicitly only works on living creatures... you get the idea.

And Familicide is really hard to stat out because of all the ad-hoc requirements. I think Rich specifically stated that he treats epic spells as plot devices or something. And to be fair, some of the pre-made epic spells in the ELH and some of the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks have really weird ad-hoc reductions.

Incidentally, arcane necromancy actually sucks at handling undead. Usually it mostly just excels at making living creatures normal-dead.


PS; there are items you can get to protect from negative energy you know...

And V has none of them, even if they [1] exist in OotS in the first place, b) V could afford them, and III. they were the type that V could actually use without getting some kind of significant penalty.


PPS: we know the levels didn't stack, particularly because Superb Dispelling wouldn't have worked if they did.

Well yeah, but I remember some people saying "Oh wow, V must have had a CL of 100 or higher because they broke the AMF" when V actually just got really lucky. Not you, but I do remember statements like that.

[TooSoon]

Statted out by a poster obviously.

PS- I was talking about how Dorukan could have gotten such an item. Seems clearly within his means, and he had 6 months to scry on and study Xykon.

PPS- Well, I think V was over level 100 when he had Hearta, because it seems like she might have been that high or higher (plus there are ways you can increase the probability of disjunction). I'd say V didn't just bust it out thinking "I'm feeling lucky", probably knew it was a high chance (or a certainty) it would work.

[danielxcutter]

Statted out by a poster obviously.

That one's a headcanon at best. And Rich doesn't exactly follow the epic spellcasting rules closely; Xykon should not be able to cast Superb Dispelling RAW.


PS- I was talking about how Dorukan could have gotten such an item. Seems clearly within his means, and he had 6 months to scry on and study Xykon.

Again, you assume those items even exist in OotS. I'm not sure if Rich even knows that Arms and Equipment Guide is a thing in the first place. I don't think you knew that before someone mentioned it earlier in the thread. And Dragon Magazine content is effectively homebrew at best.


PPS- Well, I think V was over level 100 when he had Hearta, because it seems like she might have been that high or higher (plus there are ways you can increase the probability of disjunction). I'd say V didn't just bust it out thinking "I'm feeling lucky", probably knew it was a high chance (or a certainty) it would work.

No, caster levels don't need to stack for a Disjunction to bust an AMF wide open(about 1/5 chance is still worth a shot I'd say), there aren't any ways of increasing Disjunction probability besides CL pumping, and V was higher than the ISS on arcane power.

[Morty]

Statted out by a poster obviously.

And thus irrelevant. Familicide was an arbitrarily powerful horrible spell with awful consequences both immediate and unforeseen. It doesn't matter what the numbers were.


PPS- Well, I think V was over level 100 when he had Hearta, because it seems like she might have been that high or higher (plus there are ways you can increase the probability of disjunction). I'd say V didn't just bust it out thinking "I'm feeling lucky", probably knew it was a high chance (or a certainty) it would work.

We know what V was thinking. They thought they could just bludgeon Xykon into submission with arcane power. They were wrong, obviously. It also doesn't matter if it could have or would have worked if this or that had been different. It didn't work and the entire point of the plotline was that it wasn't going to. Alternate timelines where it worked only matter to people weirdly invested in the temporary power V got by dealing with fiends.

[Fyraltari]

Once again, you're making claims about the writing process and the motives behind it that are pure conjecture at best. There's no reason to assume losing Haerta wasn't part of the plot from the moment it was laid out.
One point in favour of this is that Hearta's early departure compared to Jephton and Ganonron means that Nero has a shorter claim on V's soul than Cedrik and Lee. Will that matter? I don't know, but it certainly might.

[Morty]

One point in favour of this is that Hearta's early departure compared to Jephton and Ganonron means that Nero has a shorter claim on V's soul than Cedrik and Lee. Will that matter? I don't know, but it certainly might.

It also shows us in advance that V losing their hold on the souls if their concentration slips is a real risk.

[hungrycrow]

Arcane necromancers also get Control Undead, which is basically a save or die. The Giant could have just written Xykon as passing his save, but having the fight come down to a single dice roll might have taken away from the lesson of V's poor tactics.

[Peelee]

The whole reason for taking away the Hearta splice was because it wasn't plausible Xykon could take V with her... at all.

Could you remind me where he said that? It seems to have slipped my mind. Because surely such a bold claim wouldn't be made solely based on how it might play out by D&D rules, which the author has explicitly said he does not care about at all.

[danielxcutter]

Arcane necromancers also get Control Undead, which is basically a save or die. The Giant could have just written Xykon as passing his save, but having the fight come down to a single dice roll might have taken away from the lesson of V's poor tactics.

Control Undead has a really low save DC, and as a lich sorcerer Xykon’s Will save isn’t that bad.

Actually, I wonder just how bad V’s tactics really were beyond the “rushing in blindly and alone” part(and yes I know that’s a really big factor). If an epic caster can be unaware that liches are immune to electricity I don’t think that’s too big a mistake, using Crushing Grasp was actually a pretty good choice against a caster and technically wouldn’t have been destroyed by Meteor Swarm, and Empowered Sunburst hits for a LOT of damage against undead.

[Hurkyl]

using Crushing Grasp was actually a pretty good choice against a caster and technically wouldn’t have been destroyed by Meteor Swarm,
You sure? It would presumably have the same HP as listed by interposing hand (which would be V's Max HP stat) and doesn't make any saves. So by 3.5e rules, Meteor Swarm would have done 32d6 damage to the hand, average 112. That should be more than enough, right?

V himself probably takes half of 24d6, so average 42: it's four blasts of 6d6, but he probably makes all of the reflex saves for half (protection from spells is still up from the dragon fight so he has a large bonus) and doesn't have fire resistance.

The 3.0e version of Meteor Swarm would obliterate it, though: 96d6 damage if I'm reading the spell correctly (since Xykon uses the 4 large sphere version rather than 8 small spheres). However, I think that effect would mean there's no AoE damage (although the wording is confusing), so this probably isn't the version used in comic.

[danielxcutter]

You sure? It would presumably have the same HP as listed by interposing hand (which would be V's Max HP stat) and doesn't make any saves. So by 3.5e rules, Meteor Swarm would have done 32d6 damage to the hand, average 112. That should be more than enough, right?

V himself probably takes half of 24d6, so average 42: it's four blasts of 6d6, but he probably makes all of the reflex saves for half (protection from spells is still up from the dragon fight so he has a large bonus) and doesn't have fire resistance.

The 3.0e version of Meteor Swarm would obliterate it, though; 96d6 damage if I'm reading the spell correctly (since Xykon uses the 4 large sphere version rather than 8 small spheres). However, I think that effect would mean there's no AoE damage (although the wording is confusing), so this probably isn't the version used in comic.

I thought force effects can’t be destroyed by physical damage. Only effects like Disintegrate, spells that specifically destroy force effects, and abilities that actively dispel or destroy spell effects. Is the Hand series an exception?

[hungrycrow]

Control Undead has a really low save DC, and as a lich sorcerer Xykon’s Will save isn’t that bad.

Actually, I wonder just how bad V’s tactics really were beyond the “rushing in blindly and alone” part(and yes I know that’s a really big factor). If an epic caster can be unaware that liches are immune to electricity I don’t think that’s too big a mistake, using Crushing Grasp was actually a pretty good choice against a caster and technically wouldn’t have been destroyed by Meteor Swarm, and Empowered Sunburst hits for a LOT of damage against undead.

Control Undead has the same save DC as any 7th level spell. Unless you're thinking of Command Undead, which is 2nd?

Aside from the whole "rushing in blindly and alone", I'd add that quickened dimensional anchor was probably a wasted spell. Not only was it assuming V would be able to win the fight, but Xykon couldn't run away anyways or risk losing his phylactery.

Also, clearly their biggest mistake was not teleporting to the nearest magic mart and picking up a ring of protection from negative energy. :smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

Control Undead has the same save DC as any 7th level spell. Unless you're thinking of Command Undead, which is 2nd?

Aside from the whole "rushing in blindly and alone", I'd add that quickened dimensional anchor was probably a wasted spell. Not only was it assuming V would be able to win the fight, but Xykon couldn't run away anyways or risk losing his phylactery.

Also, clearly their biggest mistake was not teleporting to the nearest magic mart and picking up a ring of protection from negative energy. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I was thinking of Command Undead.

Oh! I forgot about that ring. It’s inferior to Death Ward, but it’s good enough to protect against Energy Drain. Shame that Xykon can cast Finger of Death, though…

[Hurkyl]

I thought force effects can’t be destroyed by physical damage. Only effects like Disintegrate, spells that specifically destroy force effects, and abilities that actively dispel or destroy spell effects. Is the Hand series an exception?
Interposing hand has language that the "large magic hand" "takes damage as a normal creature", and grasping hand and crushing hand say they function like that spell.

But now that I'm reading that spell more closely, I notice it says that it "makes saving throws as its caster", so the actual damage it would take is 8d6 (no save) and four instances of 6d6 each with a chance to make a reflex save for half damage. It's nonobvious if the hand gets to benefit from V's protection from spells. But given the actual circumstances (the hand is wrapped around the origin point for the spheres and ensuing explosion and singlemindedly grasping), I imagine it should take a pretty hefty penalty to the roll; I would not fault Giant for denying the reflex save entirely.

(I guess I'm assuming Xykon is making his ranged touch attack, but again given the circumstances I would not fault Giant for making it automatically succeed)

[Riftwolf]

Random nit pick: I think 30 int is pretty reasonable at epic level and 36+ is generous. All the different random buffs add up. Even if you’re smart about magic items and don’t just dump a huge amount in one stat, a +4 or +6 item is reasonable at epic level and you get 5+ from level ups alone. So 24 is a bare minimum for a vanilla NPC using only the NPC array and 26 is still low-ish if anything.

Ya many slots are burned in the morning on buffs, wards and so on. Heck the dungeon may have had a few daily wards that couldn’t be made permanent. Also probably where a lot of Dorukon’s WBL went.

26 (18+5 from levelling+3 from ageing) sounded reasonable to me as Dorukan isn't an adventuring wizard anymore and I took 'spending his wealth on the dungeons defences' to mean he had a yard sale for his adventuring kit (his WBL wouldn't be affected because he's sunk it into real estate. Whether this is a terrible idea in d&d is a matter for a different thread. Kinda like the Darth V thing should) because he wasn't on the road much anymore and a second hand Headband of Intellect could fund an ogre clan to relocate and get paid for defending the Dungeon for a hundred years.
But I'll run the numbers with 30 INT. Its still very easy to use up spell slots on buffs and lose high level ones when Energy Drain hits 2-8 of them each turn no save.

[danielxcutter]

Since Xykon's detonating them right away, I don't think he's adding the impact damage. Not that he'd need to, of course...

[Lacuna Caster]

So, imma just gonna butt in without reading the whole thread.


Also, and I can't state this boldly enough, Optimised play isn't dramatically compelling
I actually rather object to the notion that tactically competent people (https://youtu.be/DVXEYksoE6c?t=84) can't be interesting and even dramatic to watch, even when neither side is really making obvious mistakes within the constraints of available information. It's just harder to write because competence in general is harder to emulate.

I can buy the notion that Dorukan was baited into a fight he wasn't fully prepared for when Xykon trotted out Zombie Lirian to taunt him, but what I find strange is that none of Dorukan's presumable followers opted to blow up the Gate before evacuating (that being the original purpose of the self-destruct rune.) Xykon still has no method of circumventing cloister, so he'd have had no obvious source of information about the internal layout of the keep.

[danielxcutter]

So, imma just gonna butt in without reading the whole thread.


I actually rather object to the notion that tactically competent people (https://youtu.be/DVXEYksoE6c?t=84) can't be interesting and even dramatic to watch, even when neither side is really making obvious mistakes within the constraints of available information. It's just harder to write because competence in general is harder to emulate.

I can buy the notion that Dorukan was baited into a fight he wasn't fully prepared for when Xykon trotted out Zombie Lirian to taunt him, but what I find strange is that none of Dorukan's presumable followers opted to blow up the Gate before evacuating (that being the original purpose of the self-destruct rune.) Xykon still has no method of circumventing cloister, so he'd have had no obvious source of information about the internal layout of the keep.

Optimized D&D can be kinda boring because it’s basically rocket tag.

[Lacuna Caster]

Optimized D&D can be kinda boring because it’s basically rocket tag.
The same kinds of shenanigans go on all the time (https://youtu.be/6RcYW3fR7UA?t=170) in the Potterverse and while I won't say everything the characters do is tactically optimal I don't think anyone finds it intrinsically boring.

[danielxcutter]

The same kinds of shenanigans go on all the time (https://youtu.be/6RcYW3fR7UA?t=170) in the Potterverse and while I won't say everything the characters do is tactically optimal I don't think anyone finds it intrinsically boring.

The Potterverse lets you block them. In epic level D&D you drop a Quickened Greater Dispel Magic on them and half a dozen Delayed Blast Fireballs.

[Lacuna Caster]

The Potterverse lets you block them. In epic level D&D you drop a Quickened Greater Dispel Magic on them and half a dozen Delayed Blast Fireballs.
I'm not intimately familiar with epic-level play, but I'm reasonably sure counterspelling is a standard combat option in D&D?

[danielxcutter]

I'm not intimately familiar with epic-level play, but I'm reasonably sure counterspelling is a standard combat option in D&D?

Oh sure - if you don’t want to do anything else. And if you get the initiative you start with Time Stop.

[Lacuna Caster]

Oh sure - if you don’t want to do anything else. And if you get the initiative you start with Time Stop.
Your contention would be that standard D&D rules hand automatic victory to competent high-level casters who gain the initiative?

[danielxcutter]

Your contention would be that standard D&D rules hand automatic victory to competent high-level casters who gain the initiative?

At the levels they fight at? …Actually, yeah.

[Lacuna Caster]

At the levels they fight at? …Actually, yeah.
Very well then. I concede your point.

[danielxcutter]

Very well then. I concede your point.

I may be exaggerating a bit, but initiative really is that important and the more you optimize the crazier stuff gets. Dorukan honestly had the resources to drop a small army of celestials right on Xykon's pelvis and buffed to the gills.

I mean, caster OPness is so strong that Rich literally removes V from the plot most of the time so they don't godmod the entire fight.

[Lacuna Caster]

I may be exaggerating a bit, but initiative really is that important and the more you optimize the crazier stuff gets. Dorukan honestly had the resources to drop a small army of celestials right on Xykon's pelvis and buffed to the gills.
I would suggest that maybe Time Stop doesn't exist in this 'verse, but V explicitly tries to cast it in Xykon's tower, so that doesn't really hold up. I do recall that Dorukan *did* summon a bunch of celestials using Gate, but I suppose with the benefit of 1d4+1 bonus rounds he could have done a lot more.

[TooSoon]

I would suggest that maybe Time Stop doesn't exist in this 'verse, but V explicitly tries to cast it in Xykon's tower, so that doesn't really hold up. I do recall that Dorukan *did* summon a bunch of celestials using Gate, but I suppose with the benefit of 1d4+1 bonus rounds he could have done a lot more.

V casts time stop against the dragon, so we know it exists (and would assume it did until proven otherwise anyway).

Dorukan's fight was so unoptimised it actually was frustrating, which is the opposite end of the "don't make them too optimized it will be boring" spectrum. I don't really want to see a fight where Xykon just fires off 6 attacks to 1 while an Epic Wizard with 6 months to prepare has done nothing to prep for an undead opponent (no energy protection, no making sure to use spells that work against undead, etc).

Of course if V were optimized the plot would be tough to pull off (while still making the other characters relevant). The story would need to reposition itself so V was the all-powerful character who was bored or trying not to overshine their colleagues (so something like One Punch Man maybe). Why else do you think V is always turned into a lizard, or busy fighting elementals, or leaving the party, or knocked out, or has their soul removed, or off doing anything but helping the party fight.

[Morty]

The same kinds of shenanigans go on all the time (https://youtu.be/6RcYW3fR7UA?t=170) in the Potterverse and while I won't say everything the characters do is tactically optimal I don't think anyone finds it intrinsically boring.

Harry Potter's protagonist is someone who will go for a disarming spell instead of a lethal/disabling one even when up against people who want to kill him; I don't know about "tactically optimal". Moreover, Rowling had the luxury of making everything up as she went along, instead of operating in a pre-established (terrible) ruleset. Of all the works of fiction to use as an example of tactically optimal actions being optimal, Harry Potter strikes me as odd. At least in OotS we know how the magic works, unless the Giant decides to ignore it. Harry Potter magic has the internal consistency of pudding.

[RatElemental]

Harry Potter magic has the internal consistency of pudding.

Wouldn't pudding be very consistent? It tends to be rather homogeneous, at least around where I am.

[Morty]

Wouldn't pudding be very consistent? It tends to be rather homogeneous, at least around where I am.

It might not have been the best metaphor, but it was the first foodstuff I could think of.

[georgie_leech]

It might not have been the best metaphor, but it was the first foodstuff I could think of.

Perhaps "firmness" of pudding

[Lacuna Caster]

Harry Potter's protagonist is someone who will go for a disarming spell instead of a lethal/disabling one even when up against people who want to kill him; I don't know about "tactically optimal"...

The same kinds of shenanigans go on all the time (https://youtu.be/6RcYW3fR7UA?t=170) in the Potterverse and while I won't say everything the characters do is tactically optimal I don't think anyone finds it intrinsically boring.
It is helpful to read the person you are quoting, you know. (I won't say that using disarming spells is irrational if your objective is to avoid killing people, as it happens, but that's a separate discussion.)

My point is simply that danielxcutter was alleging that 'rocket tag' combat between competent agonists would be inherently boring to watch, which I don't think it is, and I don't see that having a fully consistent/detailed ruleset would inherently be a problem either. What both you and daniel seem to be alleging is that D&D's high-level magic system is both worked out consistently in detail and still wildly unbalanced.

And I mean... if that's the case, fine, it's impossible to write interesting combat scenes involving epic-level D&D magic being used by competent agonists. But that seems like a broader problem with epic-level D&D magic being... broken in general? At least in 3e? It's not that there's some specific tradeoff between drama and optimisation, it's more like 'the game doesn't work'.

.

[Kish]

I can buy the notion that Dorukan was baited into a fight he wasn't fully prepared for when Xykon trotted out Zombie Lirian to taunt him, but what I find strange is that none of Dorukan's presumable followers opted to blow up the Gate before evacuating (that being the original purpose of the self-destruct rune.)
I think you're presuming too much in thinking that he had followers who knew about the rune or were allowed anywhere near the Gate. Dorukan believed magic was supreme. The only* minions he's shown as having are, appropriately, summoned by spells.

*This hinges on the assumption that Celia and her friends were introduced to Dorukan by a Summon Planar Ally spell, but even if I'm entirely wrong there, they weren't anywhere near the Gate and never even knew that Dorukan had been killed.

Edited to add: The problem with "optimized" storytelling is that power is not a moral trait. So you're left with either: the heroes and the villains are equivalent in power and you flip a coin to determine whether you're writing a happy ending or a tragedy. Or, the villains are significantly weaker than the heroes, which is a power dimension, in my opinion, fit only for relatively low-quality Saturday morning cartoons. ("Watch Superman beat up these goons who don't know bullets will bounce off him!...Darkseid? What a goofy idea!")

That's without getting into what Rich has said about every developed character's death being the result of their choices, which is a writing philosophy wholly incompatible with expecting or wanting none of the characters to make mistakes.

[danielxcutter]

I would suggest that maybe Time Stop doesn't exist in this 'verse, but V explicitly tries to cast it in Xykon's tower, so that doesn't really hold up. I do recall that Dorukan *did* summon a bunch of celestials using Gate, but I suppose with the benefit of 1d4+1 bonus rounds he could have done a lot more.

I was thinking Planar Ally before the fight and such. Rushing in like that was a tactical blunder, though given what he’d just seen Xykon do I’m not entirely inclined to blame him.

[Elenian]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is consistent with what little we know for Dorukan to have banned transmutation? Without Shapechange and Time Stop, some of the most absurd feats of wizardry are unavailable, at least.

Of course, Wish and Gate are quite enough reality-breaking power to go on with. Without anything outright degenerate (Wish-loops and such), you can still unleash Solars and Uvuudaums and Abominations [depending on whether they count as 'deity enough' for Gate's 'deity or unique being' clause, of course] on your enemies*. You can Transport Travelers them into deathtraps (or to the feet of hostile gods, or whatever) from the other side of reality. There's no particular reason that an epic wizard, even if goaded, would need to personally intervene in battle. Even if for some reason you did feel the need to personally oversee the foe's destruction, you should probably have at least a respectable suite of defenses active all the time, and you can probably make yourself delay vengeance by, like, 18 seconds to Gate in something nasty, throw up a choice short-term buff or two**, grab your magic items, and so forth before you take the field in the flesh.

*a single Solar, even with its default spells and without doing nonsense with a spell-like Wish, is a credible (though not instantly deadly) threat to a low-epic lich sorcerer with dubious spell selection. One of the epic monsters would probably force an immediate retreat - I don't think Xykon has any realistic way of defeating something like an Infernal.

**there are many, many ways to get immunity to death effects and energy drain. Death Ward is available to lots of summonable things (and can be duplicated with a limited Wish). Shapechange (if available) can turn you into things with all sorts of immunities. The real threat is just dispels - Superb Dispelling is annoying enough to work around at short notice that I think you really shouldn't risk it, but if you ignore my advice and fight the lich in-person, the deck can still be stacked well in your favor.

[Lacuna Caster]

I think you're presuming too much in thinking that he had followers who knew about the rune or were allowed anywhere near the Gate. Dorukan believed magic was supreme. The only* minions he's shown as having are, appropriately, summoned by spells.

*This hinges on the assumption that Celia and her friends were introduced to Dorukan by a Summon Planar Ally spell, but even if I'm entirely wrong there, they weren't anywhere near the Gate and never even knew that Dorukan had been killed.
Yeah... which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Celia & Co. are somewhat flippantly shown going out for subway sandwiches, and presumably need to get food more generally, so unless there are Create Food & Water Traps installed along the walls they'd be more-or-less obliged to venture out into either the dungeon and/or the wider countryside to survive, which means they're going to notice the goblins around the place. (I mean, if we're being really technical about it there's a strip where Haley is sharing a queue at the bathroom with a dozen other female monsters.) News would get around, is what I'm saying.

It also doesn't really make a lot of sense for Dorukan to install a self-destruct rune that only he is going to be allowed to use. In ~90% of likely scenarios, either Dorukan is alive and the Gate is safe or Dorukan is dead and the Gate is in danger. Either way, he's not going to be the one flipping the switch. (Also, if he really did intend for no-one else to use the rune, he should have... made it impossible for anyone else to use the rune. Warning label notwithstanding, it was clearly intended to be usable by just about anyone under emergency conditions.)

(There's no direct confirmation of this either way, but the good-aligned monsters who occupied Xykon's tower probably make the most sense if they were (summoned?) allies of Dorukan who either retreated from the keep or arrived too late to save the day and were trying to ambush the lich. But I digress.)


Edited to add: The problem with "optimized" storytelling is that power is not a moral trait. So you're left with either: the heroes and the villains are equivalent in power and you flip a coin to determine whether you're writing a happy ending or a tragedy... ...That's without getting into what Rich has said about every developed character's death being the result of their choices, which is a writing philosophy wholly incompatible with expecting or wanting none of the characters to make mistakes.
I think this is a strawman. Mistakes in the tactical sense are distinct from luck or chance, the effects of attrition, divergence in goals and ethics, or lack of omniscience. You can't foresee everything, but it's reasonable to expect a competent agonist to foresee the obvious. Nor is it impossible for an agent to consciously choose actions that could result in their death as a means to other ends.

(Random example- Enemy at the Gates has it's problems, but I don't recall that either side in the film was ever behaving stupidly, per se. Characters still die as a result (https://youtu.be/MhFHM6Vnqo4?t=111) of their choices, either directly or indirectly.)


I was thinking Planar Ally before the fight and such. Rushing in like that was a tactical blunder, though given what he’d just seen Xykon do I’m not entirely inclined to blame him.
I'm not sure. My impression going by what yourself, TooSoon and Elenian have been saying is that Dorukan's tactics were so badly sub-optimal that even being goaded into anger wouldn't be enough to easily explain it. It would be something like an epic-level fighter being goaded into bursting out of his fortress to fight buck naked without any weapons or armour.

I mean, if the explanation here is "optimal combat leads to Dorukan ROFLstomping Xykon within three rounds, so we're not going to do that", so be it, but... again, maybe that doesn't speak well of the underlying ruleset.

[Hurkyl]

I'm not sure. My impression going by what yourself, TooSoon and Elenian have been saying is that Dorukan's tactics were so badly sub-optimal that even being goaded into anger wouldn't be enough to easily explain it. It would be something like an epic-level fighter being goaded into bursting out of his fortress to fight buck naked without any weapons or armour.
What does the epic-level fighter think he's fighting? How much pre-battle preparation will he make if, for example, those darned goblins that were being a nuisance but not worth the effort to swat away suddenly, I dunno, kidnapped his girlfriend or something to provoke him into action?

I haven't read the strip myself, but the sentiment I get from hearing the forum describe it is that Dorukan never thought Xykon was a serious threat. Surely not as badly as my extreme counter-example, but the idea is that Xykon was just a nuisance not worth the effort to get rid of. And then Xykon suddenly made it very, very much worth the effort to do so promptly.

I guess this "not worth the effort" point of view actually specifically counters the idea of using Gate. Is he really going to bother otherplanar allies if he thinks the threat is insignificant?

[danielxcutter]

High-end Monster Manual outsiders seem okay... but I dunno about Abominations. Those are kinda of a really big thing.

I think Dorukan did underestimate Xykon greatly, but the general lack of optimization in OotS combat and his recklessness due to Lirian being tortured are still major factors. What did Dorukan do against Xykon specifically? I don't have SoD, but I've heard enough spoilers to get the general idea - still, I'm not sure if there's something I've missed. I didn't know about the celestials until fairly recently, for example.

But seriously, Dorukan probably wasn't fighting that unoptimally by the standards of this comic. Some of the build choices taken seem to explicitly be for the purpose of crippling someone's capabilities to keep them in line.

[TooSoon]

What does the epic-level fighter think he's fighting? How much pre-battle preparation will he make if, for example, those darned goblins that were being a nuisance but not worth the effort to swat away suddenly, I dunno, kidnapped his girlfriend or something to provoke him into action?

I haven't read the strip myself, but the sentiment I get from hearing the forum describe it is that Dorukan never thought Xykon was a serious threat. Surely not as badly as my extreme counter-example, but the idea is that Xykon was just a nuisance not worth the effort to get rid of. And then Xykon suddenly made it very, very much worth the effort to do so promptly.

I guess this "not worth the effort" point of view actually specifically counters the idea of using Gate. Is he really going to bother otherplanar allies if he thinks the threat is insignificant?

Well, unlike the last few posters I have read SoD, and I can tell you the fight is just badly written. The final sequence between Dorukan and Xykon encapsulates the terrible depiction of the fight. Xykon hits Dorukan with six consecutive spells, while Dorukan is allowed to fire back one (unnamed) spell. If the moral was supposed to be that Dorukan lost because he was arrogant, that fight undermined the point the author wanted to make completely. The moral I got was "Xykon won because he is badass... really badass, and the rules don't apply to badasses", and Dorukan got nerfed and an idiot ball, so we can watch him flail helplessly against Xykon's badassery. Dorukan had 6 months to prepare while Xykon was besieging him. It is beyond credibility that during that 6 months he apparently made no real preparations at all, even of the "gee, he's undead, should I prepare something to protect/be effective against this undead and his undead army?" Nor did he do anything to prepare for the possibility of losing (e.g. setting up a contingency spell, telling someone in his base "hey, there's a Lich besieging us, keep an eye out about that, and if he gets in XYZ".

It also makes Xykon look dumber too, and I don't say that lightly. The guy knew he had no ability to scry on Dorukan, so he had no intel on him or his defences. For all he knew Dorukan was making crazy great preparations against him... and he still just sat in front of his fortress for 6 whole months, only to be saved because for some reason Dorukan made no preparations at all. It basically means Xykon would be dead, if the plot didn't protect him no matter how incompetent he was. Assume Dorukan makes the elementary decision to pack an item that protects from negative energy against an undead, who uses negative energy. What is Xykon's next move after Energy drain? How is he planning to beat him? What if Dorukan makes the elementary decision to teleport back when he's in trouble, and come back better prepared, knowing Xykon cannot follow him into the cloister? Again, we will never know, because the plot demanded he not do that.

[Peelee]

I thought the fight was very well-written, from a thematic and action perspective. It wasn't very good from a pure D&D rules accuracy perspective, but the author has explicitly said that anyone looking for that is going to be constantly frustrated, so I don't look for that.

[TooSoon]

I thought the fight was very well-written, from a thematic and action perspective. It wasn't very good from a pure D&D rules accuracy perspective, but the author has explicitly said that anyone looking for that is going to be constantly frustrated, so I don't look for that.

1) This is a D&D comic. The author has admitted he wishes he hadn't made it one, because now he's bound to some extent by that framework... but he did, and it is, and it failed in that respect. The author saying he didn't try to do that doesn't make it any less a failure, by his own admissions the comic has to be driven by the rules to some degree.

Rich is a fine writer and I hate to sound so negative because of some minor things that annoy me, but the message you and others are selling when you say stuff like this is "I know you think it was badly written because it ignored the rules, but it isn't... because Rich said so". Rich can tell us what he was trying to do, but not whether what he does or does not do is good or bad. That is for the readers to determine. Rich has said many times, including in quotes we've cited in the last week on these forums, that he understands reader's will be rightly annoyed when he snubs the rules (which is why he does stuff like sideline V all the time). This is one of those times, regardless of whether Rich says "no it isn't, because I say so".

2) How is it well written from a thematic point of view? The point Xykon is supposedly trying to make is something to the effect of Wizards underestimate sorcerers because they're less diverse, but being more diverse isn't always better than being a specialst. Xykon's point is he's less diverse, but because he can spam out the stuff he specializes in he can overpower the generalist... except his point is not proven in the fight, because the generalist fights like an idiot and stands there doing nothing while he is pummeled for much of the fight. The takes the moral from "specialization wins over generalists" to "a vague degree of competence wins out over utter foolishness and a railroad plot".

There are ways you can illustrate the point Xykon is trying to make. That is not it.

3) It's also not even true. Maybe you can be better by specializing as a sorcerer, but Xykon's build is not such a specialization. His spell selection sucks frankly. If his opponents had a basic protection from negative energy item, perhaps coupled with a few other basics like protection from fire, over half his known ways of winning fights are suddenly gone. The comic opened with Xykon losing to a level 9 fighter. He almost lost to Soon. He almost lost to a Silver Dragon. He should have lost to spliced V. Xykon is not a proof of concept for any such thesis. His victories are plot driven, and that's the moral. He beat an archmagi by hitting him on the head with a trophy in the same book he beat Dorukan. Was that supposed to teach us something profound to?

[Peelee]

1) This is a D&D comic. The author has admitted he wishes he hadn't made it one, because now he's bound to some extent by that framework...
I agree. "To some extent". That extent has, by the authors own very open admission numerous times, changed. He has directly stated that if you dislike that change of extent, then you will be dissatisfied with the strip. You appear to be dissatisfied with the strip. If nothing else, I hope that this has not been a surprise.

2) How is it well written from a thematic point of view? The point Xykon is supposedly trying to make is something to the effect of Wizards underestimate sorcerers because they're less diverse, but being more diverse isn't always better than being a specialst.

I agree here as well, but it doesn't need to be always better. It just needs to be better when fighting someone who places the absolute importance and arrogance on inherent superiority (Dorukan, most wizards we have seen in Stickworld) and underestimating others as well as dismissing their strengths. Which just happens to be most of the wizards Xykon has fought.

[Morty]

3) It's also not even true. Maybe you can be better by specializing as a sorcerer, but Xykon's build is not such a specialization. His spell selection sucks frankly. If his opponents had a basic protection from negative energy item, perhaps coupled with a few other basics like protection from fire, over half his known ways of winning fights are suddenly gone. The comic opened with Xykon losing to a level 9 fighter. He almost lost to Soon. He almost lost to a Silver Dragon. He should have lost to spliced V. Xykon is not a proof of concept for any such thesis. His victories are plot driven, and that's the moral. He beat an archmagi by hitting him on the head with a trophy in the same book he beat Dorukan. Was that supposed to teach us something profound to?

Why are you assuming Xykon's victory over Dorukan was supposed to teach us something? Xykon's victory over Dorukan was one sorcerer's victory over one wizard. One that's not even very important - the important part happens down below, between Redcloak and Right-Eye. The only thing the magic duel really proves or illustrates is Xykon's personal philosophy of raw power above all else. It tells us who Xykon is, not anything about sorcerers or wizards. Because the comic really doesn't concern itself with whether sorcerers are better than wizards or vice versa. If you feel strongly enough about on the subject for the fight to upset you, I'm going to say it's pretty much self-inflicted.

[danielxcutter]

The entire "Wizard is better than Sorcerer" thing is based almost entirely on them having the right spells prepared. It's entirely possible to get ganked by someone below your weight class if you didn't prepare the right spells, and if anything Xykon might very well be higher-leveled than Dorukan.

Plus, you know, if the first Energy Drain hadn't worked Xykon probably would have switched to something better. Did Dorukan even know what spells Xykon had?

[Lacuna Caster]

1) This is a D&D comic. The author has admitted he wishes he hadn't made it one, because now he's bound to some extent by that framework... but he did, and it is, and it failed in that respect. The author saying he didn't try to do that doesn't make it any less a failure, by his own admissions the comic has to be driven by the rules to some degree....

...Maybe you can be better by specializing as a sorcerer, but Xykon's build is not such a specialization. His spell selection sucks frankly. If his opponents had a basic protection from negative energy item, perhaps coupled with a few other basics like protection from fire, over half his known ways of winning fights are suddenly gone. The comic opened with Xykon losing to a level 9 fighter. He almost lost to Soon. He almost lost to a Silver Dragon. He should have lost to spliced V. Xykon is not a proof of concept for any such thesis. His victories are plot driven, and that's the moral. He beat an archmagi by hitting him on the head with a trophy in the same book he beat Dorukan. Was that supposed to teach us something profound to?
This is all true, but to be fair it's happening constantly to quite a variety of characters, not just Xykon. I lost all investment in the plot shortly after Girard's Gate exploded because- aside from yet another instance of characters being treated as indestructible rubber mannequins that can be hurled thousands of feet with only superficial injuries in a universe where you can also kill someone by snapping their neck- it was evident that none of the heroes were really in any sort of organic danger. Xykon should essentially be considered an honourary member of the Order of the Stick at this point, because he's been so consistently helpful.

Pretty much anything to do with the introduction of Miko and the Sapphire Guard is like this as well. ("Crimson Mantle who?" "How does one 'Wind Walk'?" "Who is this O-Chul person who supposedly specialises in nonlethal diplomacy?" "What is this 'Sending' you speak of?" "I have never heard of such a thing.")


Why are you assuming Xykon's victory over Dorukan was supposed to teach us something? Xykon's victory over Dorukan was one sorcerer's victory over one wizard. One that's not even very important - the important part happens down below, between Redcloak and Right-Eye...
While that's true, Xykon does reiterate this notion that 'power is power' in his fight with V as well (while saying that things are 'weirdly balanced'), so it's not an entirely trivial aside.


The entire "Wizard is better than Sorcerer" thing is based almost entirely on them having the right spells prepared. It's entirely possible to get ganked by someone below your weight class if you didn't prepare the right spells, and if anything Xykon might very well be higher-leveled than Dorukan.

Plus, you know, if the first Energy Drain hadn't worked Xykon probably would have switched to something better. Did Dorukan even know what spells Xykon had?
Again, Dorukan not knowing what spells Xykon has seems to be largely a function of Dorukan not making an effort- D can scry/divine on X with relative impunity and not vice versa- which brings us back to the original problem. (It's not even clear that high-level wizards are vastly less flexible than sorcerors, given what you can do with spells like mnemonic enhancer, limited wish and wish.)

[TooSoon]

Why are you assuming Xykon's victory over Dorukan was supposed to teach us something? Xykon's victory over Dorukan was one sorcerer's victory over one wizard. One that's not even very important - the important part happens down below, between Redcloak and Right-Eye. The only thing the magic duel really proves or illustrates is Xykon's personal philosophy of raw power above all else. It tells us who Xykon is, not anything about sorcerers or wizards. Because the comic really doesn't concern itself with whether sorcerers are better than wizards or vice versa. If you feel strongly enough about on the subject for the fight to upset you, I'm going to say it's pretty much self-inflicted.

You guys are the ones justifying the bad fight by trying to say it was only there to teach us something. I'm saying it failed to teach us anything, because it was poorly executed as a lesson. It would not be unlike me telling teenagers "if you go out clubbing underage something bad will happen to you!". Then the roof falls on them, and I shake my head knowingly and say "told you so". That example is not mine; it's taken from a terrible soap opera which has a habit of pretending to be edgy while actually appealing to its older, more conservative fan base of stay at home mothers. The way the show does this is to dodge the real issues entirely, because those contain nuance, and instead hit you with a brick (literally in this case). The lesson therefore fails because while there could indeed be dangers in such behavior, the example that is supposed to teach us that is not of the danger we should reasonably expect to encounter if we behave that way. It is the sort of random thing that could happen to anyone no matter how they behave.

You will lose any fight if your opponent fights like an utter moron and just stands there taking no actions while you unload spell after spell into him.

If you continue to believe the fight teaches us something my only conclusion can be you have not read the fight, or don't remember it.

[RatElemental]

I think the overwhelming argument has not been that the Xykon v Dorukan fight was meant to teach us something, it was that it was meant to be window dressing for the Redcloak v Right-Eye confrontation going on below. It was a prequel, the outcome of that fight was a foregone conclusion and ink costs money.

[Morty]

You guys are the ones justifying the bad fight by trying to say it was only there to teach us something. I'm saying it failed to teach us anything, because it was poorly executed as a lesson. It would not be unlike me telling teenagers "if you go out clubbing underage something bad will happen to you!". Then the roof falls on them, and I shake my head knowingly and say "told you so". That example is not mine; it's taken from a terrible soap opera which has a habit of pretending to be edgy while actually appealing to its older, more conservative fan base of stay at home mothers. The way the show does this is to dodge the real issues entirely, because those contain nuance, and instead hit you with a brick (literally in this case). The lesson therefore fails because while there could indeed be dangers in such behavior, the example that is supposed to teach us that is not of the danger we should reasonably expect to encounter if we behave that way. It is the sort of random thing that could happen to anyone no matter how they behave.

You will lose any fight if your opponent fights like an utter moron and just stands there taking no actions while you unload spell after spell into him.

If you continue to believe the fight teaches us something my only conclusion can be you have not read the fight, or don't remember it.

I'm not sure who the "you guys" are that you're trying to lump me in with. I've said nothing whatsoever about the fight teaching us anything - in fact, my post argues the exact opposite. The fight is an illustration of Xykon's worldview and little else. Much like Redcloak reveals his true colors when he kills Right-Eye, this is Xykon's big rant about who he is and what he believes. That's it.

That aside, I also looked for the word "teach" in this thread and found that it only ever comes up in your posts and those that respond to it, so... yeah.

[woweedd]

OK, actually, legit question: TooSoon, how would you have done this fight...Assuming Xykon still has to win, which he does, because this is a prequel and his victory is literally a foregone conclusion? Under what circumstances would you accept a Sorcerer winning over a Wizard without bleating about tiers?

[Elenian]

I just wanted to jump in and add something to my earlier post, which is that I do not think the comic should have shown Dorukan gating in abominations, shapechanging into prismatic golems, having bound pit fiends spam daily Wishes for Xykon to be transported to the sun or in front of the Lady of Pain, or any such nonsense. An epic wizard in dnd-land who knows these things are possible should do them in war [well, probably. At some point MAD logic becomes a consideration, but nevermind], but we can come up with all kinds of reasons - ignorance of the possibilities being the easiest - why OOTS characters don't. It's fine.

(Okay, full disclosure, I actually kind of would like to see it, because it would be hilariously over the top gonzo stuff and probably pretty fun to read, but I don't think it would help the storytelling at all. If I were writing the comic, which thank goodness I am not... I would probably have just had the fight happen off-screen, or only showed the killing blow (surrounded by terrain warped into a nightmare landscape of twisted obsidian, just to suggest a cataclysmic conflict).

I should also say that, at least for me, this isn't a sorcerer vs wizard thing at all - epic sorcerers have plenty of reality-warping power, too. It's not even a complaint.

[danielxcutter]

In short it really depends on what the Wizard prepared this day, and if he uses it properly. Between his arrogance and his anger, Dorukan... didn't. Also Xykon's really powerful.

[TooSoon]

OK, actually, legit question: TooSoon, how would you have done this fight...Assuming Xykon still has to win, which he does, because this is a prequel and his victory is literally a foregone conclusion? Under what circumstances would you accept a Sorcerer winning over a Wizard without bleating about tiers?

There are lots of ways to show it, or as someone else suggested; just don't show it. As long as it is shown in a plausible manner, nobody would mind. Just have the characters play by the rules and have moderately sensible tactics. It doesn't have to be optimized or anything, but Dorukan pulling out spells like Prismatic Spray that are mostly useless, and having seemingly done nothing to prepare, was just implausible. The worst part was definitely the ending of the fight. Xykon fires off 6 spells to Dorukan's 1 singular unnamed spells; the dude just stands there and does nothing while Xykon kills him one spell at a time, he doesn't even try to teleport away. Energy drain also somehow dispels his fly spell (which isn't how energy drain works) and causes him to fall and crash (which is not how dispelling fly works).

I didn't much care for the V/Xykon fight either, but it was vastly better and more plausible than the Dorukan one.

As for the other guy, *scrubbed*. People are going on about what they think the fight was meant to show/meant, and I think by being such a bad fight it undermined any meaning it had (except as a backdrop for Redcloak and Right Eye I suppose, that still worked fine).

[Morty]

As for the other guy, {scrub the post, scrub the quote}. People are going on about what they think the fight was meant to show/meant, and I think by being such a bad fight it undermined any meaning it had (except as a backdrop for Redcloak and Right Eye I suppose, that still worked fine).

This forum has a multi-quote function. You could have used it to quote my post as well, instead of referring to me as "the other guy". And I have already told you what the purpose of the fight was. And it wasn't to "teach a lesson". It was there as a capstone of Xykon's characterization in the book. Which has nothing to do with what some other people might have said or not - again, I don't recall anyone claiming what you insist they do, and the burden is on you to show it.

[TooSoon]

This forum has a multi-quote function. You could have used it to quote my post as well, instead of referring to me as "the other guy". And I have already told you what the purpose of the fight was. And it wasn't to "teach a lesson". It was there as a capstone of Xykon's characterization in the book. Which has nothing to do with what some other people might have said or not - again, I don't recall anyone claiming what you insist they do, and the burden is on you to show it.

If it is there to crystalize Xykon's grand thesis it does the opposite; because it undermines his thesis, and makes Xykon look like a moron. Xykon came off like a moron saying everything was strangely balanced against V too, because it isn't remotely true, and the author knows it (as he has told us when he talks about having to find a way to get V away from the action constantly, to avoid unbalancing the fights). In 3.5 the classes are not balanced at all. The caster classes particularly are overpowered compared to most of the other classes. A vaguely optimized V would render the rest of the party largely inconsequential on most adventures.

[Peelee]

There are lots of ways to show it, or as someone else suggested; just don't show it. As long as it is shown in a plausible manner, nobody would mind.

That is a rather bold claim. What you think is plausible may not be plausible to some other person, who would then mind quite a bit. For example, I think it was perfectly plausible as-is, as do many others in this thread, but you do not, and you mind.

[Morty]

If it is there to crystalize Xykon's grand thesis it does the opposite; because it undermines his thesis, and makes Xykon look like a moron. Xykon came off like a moron saying everything was strangely balanced against V too, because it isn't remotely true, and the author knows it (as he has told us when he talks about having to find a way to get V away from the action constantly, to avoid unbalancing the fights). In 3.5 the classes are not balanced at all. The caster classes particularly are overpowered compared to most of the other classes. A vaguely optimized V would render the rest of the party largely inconsequential on most adventures.

What "grand thesis"? It's not a thesis. It's what Xykon believes, which informs how he acts. And, during the fight with V (which you can't resist going back to for some reason), it was what V needed to hear at the time. You insist to make it more than it is to claim the fight is flawed, which it isn't. It's exactly what it needs to be - Dorukan's death is a foregone conclusion, but the way in which he dies shows us the kind of person Xykon is. Which is pretty typical for a prequel.

[woweedd]

I mean, to be fair, I do get Too Soon's point: The fight does play into a recurring theme of OOTS vis-a-vis power. Namely, power comes in many forms and the statistically-superior foe can often be defeated through clever tactics if they get overconfident. Usually, in the comic, it's the reverse (IE the stronger foe resorts to brute force out of overconfidence while the weaker one is forced to think outside the box), but here too: Dorukan could have defeated Xykon, but he got cocky, and paid for it. Same way V would later: All the spells in the world won't help you if you aren't applying them properly because you're unable to think that you CAN be defeated. Notably, in the latter case (see: Xykon's speech about "power is power"), V is shown learning their lesson and taking the speech to heart: Power can come in many forms, indeed, say, a second-level Explosive Runes spell...And, with that weak spell, they end up totally screwing X over. It appears, no offense, TS is just refusing to get this theme and going "how could the statistically-stronger foe lose" as if that's not the point. Xykon's thesis isn't the thesis of the battle, if anything, the thesis of the battle is the opposite: Brute power, whether it comes in the form of a list of spells or raw strength, means nothing if you apply it wrongly.

[TooSoon]

That is a rather bold claim. What you think is plausible may not be plausible to some other person, who would then mind quite a bit. For example, I think it was perfectly plausible as-is, as do many others in this thread, but you do not, and you mind.

I'm not seeing how getting 6 spells to 1 is plausible. In fact it is functionally impossible under the rules, which is the opposite of plausible.

People continue to say it served some purpose as a scene, e.g. to "tell V what he needed to hear", or to underline Xykon's view; the problem is the scene does nothing to justify that view, so it is unsatisfying. I explained this earlier with the example of underage clubbing. If I go underage clubbing, then a roof falls on me, and I realise because of the roof falling on me "of course, now I understand, underage clubbing is bad... cos of the roof" then I haven't learned anything, because I'm basing my experience on crap data that has no causal relationship to my conclusion.

Regardless of whether the lesson learned is "correct", the fact it is being taught by examples that self-evidently do not show it undermines the thematic journey of the character and their supposed growth.

[danielxcutter]

I’m pretty sure the fight was essentially over anyways and Rich just consolidated it in that way. I have a DM who does that for encounters that are already decided as well.

[RatElemental]

I'm not seeing how getting 6 spells to 1 is plausible. In fact it is functionally impossible under the rules, which is the opposite of plausible.


It's a pretty common trope. Two characters have it out, one of them gets the upper hand and it turns into a curb-stomp, the one on the losing end makes one last flimsy punch while they're swaying on their feet barely able to stand just to emphasize how badly beaten they are. This is just the wizard version of that.

[Morty]

People continue to say it served some purpose as a scene, e.g. to "tell V what he needed to hear", or to underline Xykon's view; the problem is the scene does nothing to justify that view, so it is unsatisfying. I explained this earlier with the example of underage clubbing. If I go underage clubbing, then a roof falls on me, and I realise because of the roof falling on me "of course, now I understand, underage clubbing is bad... cos of the roof" then I haven't learned anything, because I'm basing my experience on crap data that has no causal relationship to my conclusion.

Once again, I'm really not sure why you keep conflating Xykon's defeat of Dorukan with Xykon's defeat of Vaarsuvius and his subsequent lecture to them. The former was an encapsulation of Xykon's worldview and the latter was a repudiation of Vaarsuvius' earlier mistakes, which spurred them to do more against Xykon with low-level spells than they had managed with three epic spellcasters shackled to them. There's no particular reason to expect one to somehow support the other, even if they're both rooted in Xykon's personal philosophy (such as it is) of strength and ruthlessness above all. You made up a requirement and are getting mad at the comic for not fulfilling it.

It also doesn't need to "justify" Xykon's view or make it somehow right. Xykon is a villain in the middle of murdering someone to take over his home and use it for his plan of world domination; why would the comic expend any effort justifying it? What it does do is demonstrate that this is who Xykon is and this is the way he acts.

[Peelee]

I'm not seeing how getting 6 spells to 1 is plausible.

And again, numerous other people do, which shoes that what you consider plausible or implausible is not necessarily shared by others, and thus even if you would declare something plausible is no guarantee that others would not mind it. Your argument is focused solely on yourself, and assuming that if you think it is acceptable then everyone will, despite that clearly not being the case. The author cannot satisfy everyone knows this, and thus does not try to. And, even more to the point, he openly acknowledged this. It should not be a surprise to discover that you are unhappy with the comic for not displaying moment-to-moment rules accuracy when the author has explicitly said "this comic is not displaying moment-to-monetnrules accuracy and you will be unhappy with the product if you expect it to."

[InvisibleBison]

I'm not seeing how getting 6 spells to 1 is plausible.

Well, for starters, that's not what happened. The portion of the fight under discussion occurs on page 106, and Dorukan casts 2 spells (panels 1 and 4), while Xykon casts 5 (panels 2, 3, 5, 6, 8). As for why Dorukan doesn't cast as many spells as Xykon: First, he's not shown in every panel, so it's possible he cast one or more spells that also aren't shown; second, he may have simply run out of combat spells by this point. He wasn't expecting to fight Xykon when he prepared spells that morning, so he probably prepared some amount of non-combat spells, and he's both been fighting for a while and by the latter part of the fight taken a whole bunch of negative levels, each of which would have eaten one of his prepared spells.

[danielxcutter]

Friendly reminder that Energy Drain docks two levels at minimum per shot. On average it’s FIVE.

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, for starters, that's not what happened. The portion of the fight under discussion occurs on page 106, and Dorukan casts 2 spells (panels 1 and 4), while Xykon casts 5 (panels 2, 3, 5, 6, 8). As for why Dorukan doesn't cast as many spells as Xykon: First, he's not shown in every panel, so it's possible he cast one or more spells that also aren't shown; second, he may have simply run out of combat spells by this point. He wasn't expecting to fight Xykon when he prepared spells that morning, so he probably prepared some amount of non-combat spells, and he's both been fighting for a while and by the latter part of the fight taken a whole bunch of negative levels, each of which would have eaten one of his prepared spells.
If Dorukan literally ran out of useful spells after 5 rounds (even minus combat spells he could still be stowing away stuff like Teleport, Invisibility, Dimension Door, etc. to let him retreat to safety), then again this is a case of Dorukan being an idiot and/or being artificially nerfed.


What "grand thesis"? It's not a thesis. It's what Xykon believes, which informs how he acts. And, during the fight with V (which you can't resist going back to for some reason), it was what V needed to hear at the time. You insist to make it more than it is to claim the fight is flawed, which it isn't. It's exactly what it needs to be - Dorukan's death is a foregone conclusion, but the way in which he dies shows us the kind of person Xykon is. Which is pretty typical for a prequel.

I mean, to be fair, I do get Too Soon's point: The fight does play into a recurring theme of OOTS vis-a-vis power. Namely, power comes in many forms and the statistically-superior foe can often be defeated through clever tactics if they get overconfident. Usually, in the comic, it's the reverse (IE the stronger foe resorts to brute force out of overconfidence while the weaker one is forced to think outside the box), but here too: Dorukan could have defeated Xykon, but he got cocky, and paid for it...
So... I've been thinking about this, and I think TooSoon's argument is less nitpicky than it might seem.

TooSoon is basically saying that "within the rules and assuming basic competence, this isn't really plausible". And the gist of the counterargument is "screw the rules, that's not the point the story is trying to make, which is that pride cometh before a fall and cleverness can overcome brute strength."

And yes, that's the point of the story, but... the point being made is a lie. Wizards are not, in fact, balanced against sorcerors, because sorcerors are not systematically more humble or strategic than wizards, and even if they were it's not clear it would be enough. Nor are sorcerors balanced against fighters and monks and rogues and so on. And- to visit a larger theme within the story- goblins and kobolds are not 'balanced' against humans and elves and dwarves. Rich seems to be trying to make an argument that with a little adjustment and accommodation and good will, or at least with a little clever strategy, everybody can get a fair shake and an equal say and avoid hogging the spotlight. But all of this is achieved in the context of the narrative through railroading and manipulation, which is not sustainable and does not transfer to either actual D&D play or our own reality.

The truth is that there are massive imbalances and inequalities baked into the structure of the world's basic physical rules. Which drives you toward one of two conclusions: Either you need to live with inequality or you need to rewrite the world's basic physical rules. But this idea that you can shoehorn 'balance' and 'fairness' into the world as-it-is is basically a pleasant fiction.

[Hurkyl]

Xykon hits Dorukan with six consecutive spells, while Dorukan is allowed to fire back one (unnamed) spell. If the moral was supposed to be that Dorukan lost because he was arrogant, that fight undermined the point the author wanted to make completely. The moral I got was "Xykon won because he is badass... really badass, and the rules don't apply to badasses", and Dorukan got nerfed and an idiot ball, so we can watch him flail helplessly against Xykon's badassery.
Okay, but that's not the point other posters seem to have gotten, which seems to be more along the lines of "Dorukan was completely dismissive of the threat Xykon posed, and was punished for it" This is a mostly subjective thing; sure, the writing was not great for you specifically, but it seems many were fine with it?

In particular, it sounds like the comic decided to go with a more narrative style of only depicting the story-relevant bits, whereas your preferences are to see every aspect of the fight.

It's fine being unsatisfied; I can easily imagine much disappointment if one were expecting a climactic battle but that wasn't what the story wanted. But given how unbelievable you find the idea that Xykon cast six spells in a row, do you really find it even less believable that the comic didn't show everything?


Dorukan had 6 months to prepare while Xykon was besieging him. It is beyond credibility that during that 6 months he apparently made no real preparations at all, even of the "gee, he's undead, should I prepare something to protect/be effective against this undead and his undead army?" Nor did he do anything to prepare for the possibility of losing (e.g. setting up a contingency spell, telling someone in his base "hey, there's a Lich besieging us, keep an eye out about that, and if he gets in XYZ".
Your whole criticism seems to be from the point of view from someone who regards Xykon like a main villain of a story, rather than an inconsequential nuisance.

[woweedd]

I'm not seeing how getting 6 spells to 1 is plausible. In fact it is functionally impossible under the rules, which is the opposite of plausible.

People continue to say it served some purpose as a scene, e.g. to "tell V what he needed to hear", or to underline Xykon's view; the problem is the scene does nothing to justify that view, so it is unsatisfying. I explained this earlier with the example of underage clubbing. If I go underage clubbing, then a roof falls on me, and I realise because of the roof falling on me "of course, now I understand, underage clubbing is bad... cos of the roof" then I haven't learned anything, because I'm basing my experience on crap data that has no causal relationship to my conclusion.

Regardless of whether the lesson learned is "correct", the fact it is being taught by examples that self-evidently do not show it undermines the thematic journey of the character and their supposed growth.
Xykon didn't learn anything from this experience. He doesn't really learn or grow...at all. He's basically just a complete monster from the moment we meet him. This fight was about giving him a chance to explain his views, not enhancing them.

If Dorukan literally ran out of useful spells after 5 rounds (even minus combat spells he could still be stowing away stuff like Teleport, Invisibility, Dimension Door, etc. to let him retreat to safety), then again this is a case of Dorukan being an idiot and/or being artificially nerfed.



So... I've been thinking about this, and I think TooSoon's argument is less nitpicky than it might seem.

TooSoon is basically saying that "within the rules and assuming basic competence, this isn't really plausible". And the gist of the counterargument is "screw the rules, that's not the point the story is trying to make, which is that pride cometh before a fall and cleverness can overcome brute strength."

And yes, that's the point of the story, but... the point being made is a lie. Wizards are not, in fact, balanced against sorcerors, because sorcerors are not systematically more humble or strategic than wizards, and even if they were it's not clear it would be enough. Nor are sorcerors balanced against fighters and monks and rogues and so on. And- to visit a larger theme within the story- goblins and kobolds are not 'balanced' against humans and elves and dwarves. Rich seems to be trying to make an argument that with a little adjustment and accommodation and good will, or at least with a little clever strategy, everybody can get a fair shake and an equal say and avoid hogging the spotlight. But all of this is achieved in the context of the narrative through railroading and manipulation, which is not sustainable and does not transfer to either actual D&D play or our own reality.

The truth is that there are massive imbalances and inequalities baked into the structure of the world's basic physical rules. Which drives you toward one of two conclusions: Either you need to live with inequality or you need to rewrite the world's basic physical rules. But this idea that you can shoehorn 'balance' and 'fairness' into the world as-it-is is basically a pleasant fiction.

And, if this was a comic about D&D and D&D exclusively, that would mean something. Call me crazy, but I think Rich's point isn't specific to this one specific game that has been out of date for a decade and counting. He once said, somewhat famously, that all stories say something about the real world, and i'd say the message of "brute strength can be overcome by tactics when the powerful get cocky" is applicable to a lot of things outside D&D. Same with the Goblins. The Goblins VS Humans conflict is drawing from D&D, but it also draws from, ya know, life, that's the idea: Deconstructing the idea of the "Race of sapient beings whose sole purpose in the story is to be slaughtered by the heroes without guilt" by placing it in a context of an actual racial conflict, where the goblins are actual people with families and motives for doing the things they do, and not just enemies to be slaughtered without a thought. It's a comment on the fantasy trope,. and on the things similar ideas have been used to justify in our world, vis-a-vis treating certain people badly because they look weird. It's not even like this is a new thing. As early as Strip #13, the comic that introduced Xykon and the idea of the strip having any sort of actual plot, Belkar, who, at this point, has already been established as Evil, states that he assumed they were here to "kill some sentient creatures because they have green skin and fangs and we don't, and take their stuff", whereupon the other members of the party glare at him angrily. So, ya know, the sentiment of "if it's a goblin, it can die" is placed in the mouth of the evil party member, and every good member disagrees. Rich kinda made his thoughts on the trope clear early-on.

[Wintermoot]

Xykon didn't learn anything from this experience. He doesn't really learn or grow...at all. He's basically just a complete monster from the moment we meet him. This fight was about giving him a chance to explain his views, not enhancing them.

It was never about XYKON learning anything. It was about the reader learning something about him. We keep missing the point that the 'show' part of the comic is for the reader, not for the characters.

Rather than showing the entire fight one excruitiating round after another, the author showed enough of the fight to get the point across to the reader. The fact that Too Soon wanted the author to show each action in the fight, rather than just enough to get the point across is an issue with Too Soon as a reader, not Rich as an author.

[hungrycrow]

Your whole criticism seems to be from the point of view from someone who regards Xykon like a main villain of a story, rather than an inconsequential nuisance.

Dorukan knew that Xykon was a threat to the gate. Sure he could have assumed that his defenses would hold, but just doing nothing while an enemy probes your defenses forever is just dumb. If Xykon isn't leaving after a few months, he's not going to leave until he takes some licks. And if Dorukan does nothing, that at best means Xykon charges through the defenses and kills some underlings.

Also, Dorukan was monitoring the other gates and kept in contact with Lirian. He should know that Xykon killed her and isn't an inconsequential nuisance.

[Peelee]

Dorukan knew that Xykon was a threat to the gate. Sure he could have assumed that his defenses would hold, but just doing nothing while an enemy probes your defenses forever is just dumb. If Xykon isn't leaving after a few months, he's not going to leave until he takes some licks. And if Dorukan does nothing, that at best means Xykon charges through the defenses and kills some underlings.

Also, Dorukan was monitoring the other gates and kept in contact with Lirian. He should know that Xykon killed her and isn't an inconsequential nuisance.

How? Dorukan wasn't able to tell what happened with Lirian, by his own admission, so there's no reason to think he absolutely knew about everything else.

[InvisibleBison]

If Dorukan literally ran out of useful spells after 5 rounds (even minus combat spells he could still be stowing away stuff like Teleport, Invisibility, Dimension Door, etc. to let him retreat to safety), then again this is a case of Dorukan being an idiot and/or being artificially nerfed.

Dorukan and Xykon's fight lasted for a lot longer than 5 rounds. They were fighting all through the time that Redcloak and Xykon were talking on pages 99 - 105. I read that conversation aloud to see how long it would take, and arrived at an answer of ~4 minutes. That's enough time to deplete even an epic wizard's spell arsenal, especially if he wasn't expecting to get into a serious fight today and so devoted a bunch of his spell slots to other purposes.

[Lacuna Caster]

Dorukan and Xykon's fight lasted for a lot longer than 5 rounds. They were fighting all through the time that Redcloak and Xykon were talking on pages 99 - 105. I read that conversation aloud to see how long it would take, and arrived at an answer of ~4 minutes. That's enough time to deplete even an epic wizard's spell arsenal, especially if he wasn't expecting to get into a serious fight today and so devoted a bunch of his spell slots to other purposes.
Dorukan 'not expecting to get into a serious' fight is just another way of phrasing 'Dorukan is being handed the idiot ball', since there was nothing to stop him waiting 24 hours to maximise his odds of victory against Xykon. (And if he had any spells suitable for a retreat he would have been casting them as soon as he ran out of other offensive spells.)


And, if this was a comic about D&D and D&D exclusively, that would mean something. Call me crazy, but I think Rich's point isn't specific to this one specific game that has been out of date for a decade and counting. He once said, somewhat famously, that all stories say something about the real world, and i'd say the message of "brute strength can be overcome by tactics when the powerful get cocky" is applicable to a lot of things outside D&D. Same with the Goblins... ...So, ya know, the sentiment of "if it's a goblin, it can die" is placed in the mouth of the evil party member, and every good member disagrees. Rich kinda made his thoughts on the trope clear early-on.
Yes, I'm quite aware of his sentiment on the topic. My point is that Rich's proposed solutions to this problem rely on ignoring deeper causal mechanisms in favour of papering over a fundamental rules-driven imbalance through railroading and manipulation, which is not a sustainable solution to such problems in the real world (and leaves a great deal to be desired in D&D, even if the problem is less glaring in recent editions.)

In D&D, the people who rolled well for their INT or WIS score are positioned to be immensely more powerful than the people who rolled well for DEX or STR, assuming they pick a class that maximises the benefit from said attribute (and a lot of them will), without even touching on people who just rolled poorly in general. I'm not going to say there is zero real-world analogy to that unfairness.

.

[hungrycrow]

How? Dorukan wasn't able to tell what happened with Lirian, by his own admission, so there's no reason to think he absolutely knew about everything else.

He didn't know what happened to her soul. He did know she was killed, and it would have been reasonable to guess that the lich with an army that showed up to attack the gate was involved.

[RatElemental]

I still haven't read SoD so I can't say for sure, but didn't Xykon taunt Dorukan with the zombie he turned Lirian's body into? If he disintegrated or otherwise destroyed it then given the general inaccessibility of true resurrection that would put her beyond raising even if her soul was rescued. That would probably light a fire under his backside prep or no.

[Lacuna Caster]

I still haven't read SoD so I can't say for sure, but didn't Xykon taunt Dorukan with the zombie he turned Lirian's body into? If he disintegrated or otherwise destroyed it then given the general inaccessibility of true resurrection that would put her beyond raising even if her soul was rescued. That would probably light a fire under his backside prep or no.
Oh, yeah, I forgot that Xykon was threatening to have Lirian eaten (or, well, her corpse.) He might not have a lot of good options in that case.

[Morty]

I still haven't read SoD so I can't say for sure, but didn't Xykon taunt Dorukan with the zombie he turned Lirian's body into? If he disintegrated or otherwise destroyed it then given the general inaccessibility of true resurrection that would put her beyond raising even if her soul was rescued. That would probably light a fire under his backside prep or no.

This is correct and indeed the entire reason Dorukan even came out to fight. More specifically, he threatened to have a zombie ogre (or just an ogre? I forget) eat that body right in front of Lirian's soul, trapped in a soul gem. "Xykon lured Dorukan out to fight by targeting his emotional weak spot and destroyed him in a confrontation he was more equipped for" is a more convincing explanation to me than the minutiae of D&D rules and balance.

[Lacuna Caster]

This is correct and indeed the entire reason Dorukan even came out to fight. More specifically, he threatened to have a zombie ogre (or just an ogre? I forget) eat that body right in front of Lirian's soul, trapped in a soul gem. "Xykon lured Dorukan out to fight by targeting his emotional weak spot and destroyed him in a confrontation he was more equipped for" is a more convincing explanation to me than the minutiae of D&D rules and balance.
Forcing Lirian to watch her own body be consumed would be unpleasant but not catastrophic- the problem is that once her body is consumed she'd be beyond raise dead or resurrection spells. That doesn't rely on pressing Dorukan's emotional buttons in the sense of prompting a spur-of-the-moment rage, it just relies on him being willing to risk his own life (and/or the Gate) in order to save Lirian within a short time-window. That's a lot easier to believe.

[hungrycrow]

According to Dorukan he wasn't bothered by the idea of Lirian watching her body get eaten, and only came out because he finally knew where her soul was. That was probably a lie, but it does imply that he had a way to resurrect her if her body was destroyed.

[Morty]

According to Dorukan he wasn't bothered by the idea of Lirian watching her body get eaten, and only came out because he finally knew where her soul was. That was probably a lie, but it does imply that he had a way to resurrect her if her body was destroyed.

Yes, you're right. I'm away from my copy of Start of Darkness at the moment. Either way - Dorukan stepped out to meet Xykon head-on without being prepared for it.

[hungrycrow]

Yes, you're right. I'm away from my copy of Start of Darkness at the moment. Either way - Dorukan stepped out to meet Xykon head-on without being prepared for it.

Well it meant he started the fight without pre-buffing. He does say that he's been preparing for this for 6 months, so I doubt he'd been prepping noncombat spells the whole time.

[Peelee]

Dorukan 'not expecting to get into a serious' fight is just another way of phrasing 'Dorukan is being handed the idiot ball', since there was nothing to stop him waiting 24 hours to maximise his odds of victory against Xykon.

Sure there was - impulsiveness and the belief that he was already prepared. Wizards are not min/max machines. They can have personality traits and flaws. There may be nothing from stopping you or me, in a game, where we do not have a deep personal connection to an NPC, but Dorukan was a character in a story who spent most of his life in love with another person and suddenly had the missing piece of the puzzle unlocked as to why she could not be rezzed and he impulsively and emotionally jumped at that (and, again, already believed he was ready).

ETA: dang whole extra page I should have read before replying....

[Hurkyl]

Dorukan knew that Xykon was a threat to the gate. Sure he could have assumed that his defenses would hold, but just doing nothing while an enemy probes your defenses forever is just dumb. If Xykon isn't leaving after a few months, he's not going to leave until he takes some licks. And if Dorukan does nothing, that at best means Xykon charges through the defenses and kills some underlings.
Specifically that?

I don't know all that much about the nature of the Dungeon of Dorukan before Xykon, but I understood it to be, well, a dungeon: a sort of stereotypical adventuring location. It's the dungeon's job to keep the treasures safe and the mad mage at the bottom unbothered, not the other way around.

Was there anything to distinguish Xykon from the typical adventurer that would command the boss of the dungeon to intervene preemptively?


Also, Dorukan was monitoring the other gates and kept in contact with Lirian. He should know that Xykon killed her and isn't an inconsequential nuisance.
I had always got the impression Dorukan was acting rather immediately upon learning of the trapping of her soul?

[woweedd]

Yeah, it seems Dorukan was planning on waiting Xykon out. Sound stragey, especially since, from what we know, he appears to be an Abjuration specialist, so turtling is a good idea for him. But Xykon managed to find what he cared about, namely, Lirian. By threating her, he got Dorukan to come out without pre-buffing.

[TooSoon]

I think it's important to focus on what actually happened in the fight, so I will outline the sequence. I can't link the page due to copyright, but if you google dorukan xykon I am sure you will find it.

Sequence:
- Xykon casts energy drain
- Xykon casts another energy drain
- Dorukan fires an unnamed spell that doesn't seem to do anything
- Xykon casts another energy drain (the energy drain somehow dispels Dorukan's fly spell, which isn't how energy drain works, and then Dorukan crashes to the ground which isn't how fly being dispelled works).
- Xykon casts yet another energy drain
- Xykon casts a final energy drain

So Xykon gets 5 spells to 1. Dorukan literally does nothing to respond with his rounds. That is not what I call plausible, it is the definition of implausible.

By the admission of other posters above, Dorukan knew Lirian was dead, didn't care about her corpse being eaten, and had prepared... he also knows Lirian is dead & her gate destroyed, and gee a Lich with an army is besieging me … I wonder if the 2 are connected somehow. We also have Xykon himself tell us "oh he's busy buffing himself" while he wastes time doing stuff like fighting the angels, etc. Dorukan had plenty of time to buff even with his rashness; and even suboptimal spells should be sufficient to at least escape, never mind that when you are protected from scrying for 6 months while you can scry on the other guy you should have at least done some prep.

[Morty]

I think it's important to focus on what actually happened in the fight, so I will outline the sequence. I can't link the page due to copyright, but if you google dorukan xykon I am sure you will find it.

Sequence:
- Xykon casts energy drain
- Xykon casts another energy drain
- Dorukan fires an unnamed spell that doesn't seem to do anything
- Xykon casts another energy drain (the energy drain somehow dispels Dorukan's fly spell, which isn't how energy drain works, and then Dorukan crashes to the ground which isn't how fly being dispelled works).
- Xykon casts yet another energy drain
- Xykon casts a final energy drain

So Xykon gets 5 spells to 1. Dorukan literally does nothing to respond with his rounds. That is not what I call plausible, it is the definition of implausible.

By the admission of other posters above, Dorukan knew Lirian was dead, didn't care about her corpse being eaten, and had prepared... he also knows Lirian is dead & her gate destroyed, and gee a Lich with an army is besieging me … I wonder if the 2 are connected somehow. We also have Xykon himself tell us "oh he's busy buffing himself" while he wastes time doing stuff like fighting the angels, etc. Dorukan had plenty of time to buff even with his rashness; and even suboptimal spells should be sufficient to at least escape, never mind that when you are protected from scrying for 6 months while you can scry on the other guy you should have at least done some prep.

I believe everyone is fully aware of what happens on the pages by now. What differs is our interpretation and reaction to those panels.

[woweedd]

I think it's important to focus on what actually happened in the fight, so I will outline the sequence. I can't link the page due to copyright, but if you google dorukan xykon I am sure you will find it.

Sequence:
- Xykon casts energy drain
- Xykon casts another energy drain
- Dorukan fires an unnamed spell that doesn't seem to do anything
- Xykon casts another energy drain (the energy drain somehow dispels Dorukan's fly spell, which isn't how energy drain works, and then Dorukan crashes to the ground which isn't how fly being dispelled works).
- Xykon casts yet another energy drain
- Xykon casts a final energy drain

So Xykon gets 5 spells to 1. Dorukan literally does nothing to respond with his rounds. That is not what I call plausible, it is the definition of implausible.

By the admission of other posters above, Dorukan knew Lirian was dead, didn't care about her corpse being eaten, and had prepared... he also knows Lirian is dead & her gate destroyed, and gee a Lich with an army is besieging me … I wonder if the 2 are connected somehow. We also have Xykon himself tell us "oh he's busy buffing himself" while he wastes time doing stuff like fighting the angels, etc. Dorukan had plenty of time to buff even with his rashness; and even suboptimal spells should be sufficient to at least escape, never mind that when you are protected from scrying for 6 months while you can scry on the other guy you should have at least done some prep.
I would guess, given this was near the end of the fight, that he had already used most of his spells, and, besides, energy drain would eat into his spell slots. Also, I don't know why you're seizing on the Fly spell detail so much. I mean, it doesn't really matter, right?

[TooSoon]

I would guess, given this was near the end of the fight, that he had already used most of his spells, and, besides, energy drain would eat into his spell slots. Also, I don't know why you're seizing on the Fly spell detail so much. I mean, it doesn't really matter, right?

As an Epic level wizard Dorukan gets a crazy number of spells. Energy drain would do modest damage to the spell slots given how many Dorukan would have, and if Dorukan was somehow getting low on spells he should be running not charging at Xykon to fight him (which gets back to the implausible stuff I've been talking about). Like, if you're running out of spells; leave the fight. Plus if Xykon still has a minimum of six level 9 spells up his sleeve at this stage in the fight, after battling through a bunch of gated angels, why the heck is Dorukan out of spells?

The energy drain dispelling the flight spell (and causing him to hit the ground) just highlights the rules are being totally ignored.

[Dion]

the rules are being totally ignored.

Welcome to the comic! You can hang your coat in the hall, and there’s refreshments in the next room. Hope you can stick around a while. We’re going to be talking about LotR later tonight, and that’s always fun.

[Peelee]

As an Epic level wizard Dorukan gets a crazy number of spells. Energy drain would do modest damage to the spell slots given how many Dorukan would have, and if Dorukan was somehow getting low on spells he should be running not charging at Xykon to fight him (which gets back to the implausible stuff I've been talking about). Like, if you're running out of spells; leave the fight. Plus if Xykon still has a minimum of six level 9 spells up his sleeve at this stage in the fight, after battling through a bunch of gated angels, why the heck is Dorukan out of spells?

The energy drain dispelling the flight spell (and causing him to hit the ground) just highlights the rules are being totally ignored.

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your endgame here? The author has publicly declared that he is going to ignore the rules as he sees fit to tell the story he wants to tell. Saying "the exact 3.5 rules are being ignored in the comic" is like saying "that Tarantino movie was really violent". Yes, that is an accurate assessment of the work. If you dislike it, hey, there's nothing wrong with that, your opinion cannot be wrong. But it really seems like you just want to read a different story than the one this author is telling.

[TooSoon]

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your endgame here? The author has publicly declared that he is going to ignore the rules as he sees fit to tell the story he wants to tell. Saying "the exact 3.5 rules are being ignored in the comic" is like saying "that Tarantino movie was really violent". Yes, that is an accurate assessment of the work. If you dislike it, hey, there's nothing wrong with that, your opinion cannot be wrong. But it really seems like you just want to read a different story than the one this author is telling.

I feel like I've explained my position at length in this thread, and I have seen you reply to those posts so I know you've seen them. The comic is great for the most part, but this particular fight annoyed me and I have explained why. If you don't feel that way, that's your right too. The thread is going on and on because some people are trying to claim the fight was plausible, and I'm explaining why the evidence suggests otherwise. You can enjoy it, plausible or not. That's not for me to judge. The Giant has indeed indicated a looseness with the rules, and the Giant has also said other things about the rules that some of us remember too (and which I've mentioned in this thread).

[woweedd]

I feel like I've explained my position at length in this thread, and I have seen you reply to those posts so I know you've seen them. The comic is great for the most part, but this particular fight annoyed me and I have explained why. If you don't feel that way, that's your right too. The thread is going on and on because some people are trying to claim the fight was plausible, and I'm explaining why the evidence suggests otherwise. You can enjoy it, plausible or not. That's not for me to judge. The Giant has indeed indicated a looseness with the rules, and the Giant has also said other things about the rules that some of us remember too (and which I've mentioned in this thread).

I feel like the exact details don’t matter as much as you think, and that most of your suggestions would only serve to drag out a fight scene that was a foregone conclusion the instant we knew this was a prequel. Aldo, what the hell does that last sentence mean?

[TooSoon]

I feel like the exact details don’t matter as much as you think, and that most of your suggestions would only serve to drag out a fight scene that was a foregone conclusion the instant we knew this was a prequel. Aldo, what the hell does that last sentence mean?

The giant has talked about how they wish they had never built the story in the framework of D&D 3.5, because then the rules to some degree bind the story going forward. Of course the author has also said they will disregard the rules whenever it suits them, and if we want a rules based story we should look elsewhere. This is the balancing act the comic now deals with. It is obvious the comic to some degree uses the rules to its advantage, to provide a framework for the story/characters to move forward in, and the author (whether they like it or not) relies on that framework when it is useful to them. Just look at the most recent comic; a beholder utilizing D&D spells and tactics is fighting the characters with D&D rules acting as the framework for the fight.

That is beneficial to the author lots of times too, it saves them time explaining things, etc. The flip side of that is when divergence from the rules breaks the suspension of disbelief of the comic. If V just cast fireball at a giant gold dragon and killed it, that would do it. For me, the Dorukan fight is unsatisfying for the reasons I have explained; because to some degree the Giant does write the comic within a D&D framework, and completely breaking it will invariably damage the framework the characters exist in, regardless of how the author feels (and the author has commented how he knows this, which is why he does stuff like write V being off panel etc so often so V doesn't damage the suspension of disbelief by not utilizing the abilities a 3.5 wizard like V has.

[Peelee]

I feel like I've explained my position at length in this thread, and I have seen you reply to those posts so I know you've seen them. The comic is great for the most part, but this particular fight annoyed me and I have explained why. If you don't feel that way, that's your right too. The thread is going on and on because some people are trying to claim the fight was plausible, and I'm explaining why the evidence suggests otherwise. You can enjoy it, plausible or not. That's not for me to judge. The Giant has indeed indicated a looseness with the rules, and the Giant has also said other things about the rules that some of us remember too (and which I've mentioned in this thread).

But it's objectively plausible. You specifically and repeatedly call it implausible because of how it does not fit with exact, moment-by-moment D&D rules. You've rested your entire case on that, which means that when the author openly states that the comic will not run on exact, moment-to-moment D&D rules, that is no longer an issue. For example, it is normally not plausible to have a several-thousand-kilogram lizard fly, or a woman shoot fire from her hands, but if a setting says "well in this world they can," then it is plausible within the framework of that world. In Stickworld, strict 3.5 rules accuracy is not adhered to, so that fight is perfectly plausible just as a dragon or a sorcerer casting Fireball is plausible.

Again, you don't like it, and that's fine. But it's not going to change, it's not going to get better for your tastes, and again, I don't see your endgame here.

[TooSoon]

But it's objectively plausible. You specifically and repeatedly call it implausible because of how it does not fit with exact, moment-by-moment D&D rules. You've rested your entire case on that, which means that when the author openly states that the comic will not run on exact, moment-to-moment D&D rules, that is no longer an issue. For example, it is normally not plausible to have a several-thousand-kilogram lizard fly, or a woman shoot fire from her hands, but if a setting says "well in this world they can," then it is plausible within the framework of that world. In Stickworld, strict 3.5 rules accuracy is not adhered to, so that fight is perfectly plausible just as a dragon or a sorcerer casting Fireball is plausible.

Again, you don't like it, and that's fine. But it's not going to change, it's not going to get better for your tastes, and again, I don't see your endgame here.

The author can make anything possible for their world. I submit to you that if in the final fight V struts to the front and says "I got this guys", then hits Xykon with a single fireball or lightning bolt and kills him, many on here would be dissatisfied (and not just because it's anticlimactic or bad story). The author might say "Geeze, V was putting a lot of extra power into that fireball because I said so, and I guess Xykon forgot their fire immunity item" or "the lightning bolt that hit Xykon was special and it could hurt Xykon because I said so, happy rules nerds?" I doubt those explanations would make most people happy though, because the OOTS world has a framework it operates in, and when you shatter that framework you run into suspension of disbelief issues.

This is a discussion forum. In it we can discuss the things we like and dislike about the comic. I don't need "a point" beyond that. I am explaining how I feel and why. I suspect I am not alone in being annoyed by it, but if I am it doesn't change my feelings. For the most part I am very positive about the story. This is one instance where I am not.

[Peelee]

The author can make anything possible for their world. I submit to you that if in the final fight V struts to the front and says "I got this guys", then hits Xykon with a single fireball or lightning bolt and kills him, many on here would be dissatisfied (and not just because it's anticlimactic or bad story). The author might say "Geeze, V was putting a lot of extra power into that fireball because I said so, and I guess Xykon forgot their fire immunity item" or "the lightning bolt that hit Xykon was special and it could hurt Xykon because I said so, happy rules nerds?" I doubt those explanations would make most people happy though, because the OOTS world has a framework it operates in, and when you shatter that framework you run into suspension of disbelief issues.

If the author specifically said," it's possible to put extra firepower into magic spells whenever, and forgetting immunity means you're no longer immune, and expecting otherwise will frustrate you," then i would hardly be surprised to find myself frustrated when that happened if I expected otherwise.

[Morty]

The author can make anything possible for their world. I submit to you that if in the final fight V struts to the front and says "I got this guys", then hits Xykon with a single fireball or lightning bolt and kills him, many on here would be dissatisfied (and not just because it's anticlimactic or bad story). The author might say "Geeze, V was putting a lot of extra power into that fireball because I said so, and I guess Xykon forgot their fire immunity item" or "the lightning bolt that hit Xykon was special and it could hurt Xykon because I said so, happy rules nerds?" I doubt those explanations would make most people happy though, because the OOTS world has a framework it operates in, and when you shatter that framework you run into suspension of disbelief issues.

In more than a decade since Start of Darkness came out, no such thing happened. Despite the connection to D&D rules growing increasingly tenuous. That would be because the Giant actually understands the dramatic significance of fights and character deaths pretty well. Which includes the difference between this absurd caricature of a scenario and one in which a character we already knew would die was overpowered by the main villain while illustrating said main villain's driving philosophy.

[Bacon Elemental]

Dorukan has just found out that Xykon has Lirian's soul, right there in front of him and jumps in immediately to not miss this chance to rescue the months-missing love of his life, jumping into a battle he's been anticipating for a long time but likely wasnt actually specifically ready for that morning.
They do some good old fashioned Wizard Duelling on and off camera for a while
The actually important confrontation and emotional climax of the book happens meanwhile between reddie and righty somewhere below
We get to the controversial scene where Xykon crushes Dorukan with spammed Energy Drain with Dorukan basically unable to meaningfully fight back, before being defeated and killed. It seems that Xykon's superiority has met with some controversy. This page doesn't obey D&D 3.5 (or 3.0) edition rules for the end of a caster duel (or the Fly spell for that matter).
Dorukans soul gets captured, Xykon regroups with redcloak and crushes him too by revealing that he was never in any danger and redcloak killed his own brother for nothing




Personally I dont think it matters at all that the rules werent followed for the final finisher of the duel with dorukan, because we're only being shown for a) ooo dramatic moment and b) Showing off Xykon's willingness to just plow straight over people who underestimate him with brute strength. Dorukan isn't the final showdown of this book about Redcloak, after all.



(Also Energy Drain can lose you up to 8 levels per hit with hot rolling, Dorukan could genuinely have lost his sixteen highest level remaining spells by the second Energy Drain, which would be pretty brutal for a fresh and prepared caster let alone one who's already been rolling out the heavy hitters for an extended duel while his opponent simply saves his 9th slots so again, short of "teleport" I really dont think there's a single spell big D could have cast that would save him. Obviously that kind of rolling is pretty unlikely but hey, even average ten is pretty brutal. Not saying I think the rules actually bear that scene out, just that the barrage of spells X uses are about as debilitating as I'd expect from the narrative results)

[Lacuna Caster]

...But it really seems like you just want to read a different story than the one this author is telling.
Any criticism of a story, by its nature, implies that the critic would like to read a story which was modified to not contain the flaw/s the critic has perceived as warranting attention. You cannot improve something without making it different.


In more than a decade since Start of Darkness came out, no such thing happened.
Well, your mileage may vary (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633350-Talk-How-colossally-dumb-Dorukan-was-Untagged-SoD-spoilers&p=25139502&viewfull=1#post25139502).

I mean, my main disagreement with TooSoon is that these kinds of problems are actually far more pervasive and fundamental than just the fight between Xykon and Dorukan (at least some of which can be excused by Xykon putting Dorukan under severe time pressure.) Huge load-bearing segments of the larger storyline just implode as soon as you start demanding basic non-suicidal competence on the part of primary agonists and that consistent rules be followed.

.

[TooSoon]

[LIST]

(Also Energy Drain can lose you up to 8 levels per hit with hot rolling, Dorukan could genuinely have lost his sixteen highest level remaining spells by the second Energy Drain, which would be pretty brutal for a fresh and prepared caster let alone one who's already been rolling out the heavy hitters for an extended duel while his opponent simply saves his 9th slots so again, short of "teleport" I really dont think there's a single spell big D could have cast that would save him. Obviously that kind of rolling is pretty unlikely but hey, even average ten is pretty brutal. Not saying I think the rules actually bear that scene out, just that the barrage of spells X uses are about as debilitating as I'd expect from the narrative results)

Assuming Xykon got lucky on the Energy Drain rolls is a 2 edged sword, because the more spells he takes, the higher Dorukan has to be and still be alive. Dorukan took 5 energy drains to kill. If Xykon had perfect rolls for his first 4 energy drains then Dorukan would have been a minimum of level 33. In reality Dorukan was "low epic" according to the author, so the number of spells he lost is tempered by that fact. If Dorukan was level 21 for instance, the most Dorukan could have lost in the first 4 energy drain was 20 spell slots in order for Dorukan to still be alive. Given Dorukan is an Epic spellcaster, a specialist and would have at least run of the mill bonuses by that point, etc, 20 spell slots isn't much of an inconvenience. Ok, it'll take away a lot of useful spells, but teleport is a 5th level spell and it's not going to hit 5th level spells (and if Xykon has rolled high the first 3 drains, why is Dorukan not teleporting away or something before the 4th and 5th?).

[Lacuna Caster]

Assuming Xykon got lucky on the Energy Drain rolls is a 2 edged sword, because the more spells he takes, the higher Dorukan has to be and still be alive. Dorukan took 5 energy drains to kill. If Xykon had perfect rolls for his first 4 energy drains then Dorukan would have been a minimum of level 33. In reality Dorukan was "low epic" according to the author, so the number of spells he lost is tempered by that fact. If Dorukan was level 21 for instance, the most Dorukan could have lost in the first 4 energy drain was 20 spell slots in order for Dorukan to still be alive. Given Dorukan is an Epic spellcaster, a specialist and would have at least run of the mill bonuses by that point, etc, 20 spell slots isn't much of an inconvenience. Ok, it'll take away a lot of useful spells, but teleport is a 5th level spell and it's not going to hit 5th level spells (and if Xykon has rolled high the first 3 drains, why is Dorukan not teleporting away or something before the 4th and 5th?).
If Dorukan teleports away, Xykon tells his ogre minion to finish eating Lirian and then Lirian becomes impossible to resurrect (unless Dorukan knows a 17th-level cleric, at least.) He may not have the option of retreating without losing the woman he loves.

[TooSoon]

If Dorukan teleports away, Xykon tells his ogre minion to finish eating Lirian and then Lirian becomes impossible to resurrect (unless Dorukan knows a 17th-level cleric, at least.) He may not have the option of retreating without losing the woman he loves.

If Dorukan dies he can't resurrect her either. Plus all he needs is a drop of her blood, which he can locate with magic. Let's also not make the assumption he has no means for a true resurrection. These guys were epic level adventurers, he may well have the means indirectly or directly to do so; why do you think he was searching for Lirian's soul even without having her body? He tells us himself he doesn't care about her unlife body, but about getting her soul... and why do you think Xykon soul binds these sorts of people? Precisely to stop them getting revived by high level people they might know. Heck, Dorukan could use other means like Wish to revive her himself.

[Lacuna Caster]

If Dorukan dies he can't resurrect her either. Plus all he needs is a drop of her blood, which he can locate with magic. Let's also not make the assumption he has no means for a true resurrection. These guys were epic level adventurers, he may well have the means indirectly or directly to do so; why do you think he was searching for Lirian's soul even without having her body? He tells us himself he doesn't care about her unlife body, but about getting her soul... and why do you think Xykon soul binds these sorts of people? Precisely to stop them getting revived by high level people they might know. Heck, Dorukan could use other means like Wish to revive her himself.
Actually, that's a good point. I was going to say that Wish only allows (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) level-8 or lower spells to be reliably replicated, and lower if it's outside your specialty, but there is a specific clause allowing for the dead to be revived even if their body was destroyed.

Yeah, okay, there's no excuse then. Dorukan just got beat upside the head with the idiot ball.

[pearl jam]

Pretty certain "getting handed the idiot ball" is an well-known alias for falling in love. If you can't believe a guy will do dumb stuff for the woman he loves (also applies to other gender identities and sexual preferences equally, of course) then I don't know what to tell you. Seems pretty plausible to me.

[hroþila]

Can't we all just agree that the Xykon vs Dorukan fight didn't follow strict RAW but that it made perfect dramatic sense, which is what The Giant was going for, and leave it at that. It was a cutscene, not gameplay. Also, dispelled Fly spells just consistently work like that in OotS, so sure, it's not RAW, but it's a well-established house rule so I don't think objecting to it makes a lot of sense. Internal consistency was maintained there.

[Morty]

Can't we all just agree that the Xykon vs Dorukan fight didn't follow strict RAW but that it made perfect dramatic sense, which is what The Giant was going for, and leave it at that. It was a cutscene, not gameplay. Also, dispelled Fly spells just consistently work like that in OotS, so sure, it's not RAW, but it's a well-established house rule so I don't think objecting to it makes a lot of sense. Internal consistency was maintained there.

That's more or less what it comes down to, but it seems TooSoon is invested enough in the combat performance of a minor character that it's not an acceptable answer.

[Chijinda]

If Dorukan dies he can't resurrect her either. Plus all he needs is a drop of her blood, which he can locate with magic. Let's also not make the assumption he has no means for a true resurrection. These guys were epic level adventurers, he may well have the means indirectly or directly to do so; why do you think he was searching for Lirian's soul even without having her body? He tells us himself he doesn't care about her unlife body, but about getting her soul... and why do you think Xykon soul binds these sorts of people? Precisely to stop them getting revived by high level people they might know. Heck, Dorukan could use other means like Wish to revive her himself.


The author has more or less blatantly stated that True Resurrection does not exist in the OotS setting, as he finds it a narratively unsatisfying spell. I would not be surprised if the same applied to Wish and Limited Wish. In other words, if Dorukan loses Lirian's body, she's gone for good.

Sure "if Dorukan dies he can't resurrect her either", but it's evidently a risk he was willing to take. If Dorukan hightails it away, he is guaranteed to lose Lirian. If he grits his teeth and risks his life sticking it out, there is a possibility he can save Lirian-- a possibility that we the audience know was doomed from the start, but Dorukan doesn't.

This also assumes that Dorukan did not find ways to protect his tower/dungeon against teleportation, which would be one of the first things you'd want to do if you're trying to ward a place against high level casters (right after protecting it from scrying effects). In which case it may very well be reasonable that Dorukan didn't prepare multiple castings of teleport if his dungeons' own defenses mean teleporting is a one-way trip no matter what.

[danielxcutter]

Technically Rich said that True Rez/Wish/Miracle do exist; they just aren't going to play a part in the plot. Not that it changes much, of course.

[Hurkyl]

They do some good old fashioned Wizard Duelling on and off camera for a while
Really?!?! The critics were making it sound like the energy drains were the entire fight, rather than the concluding moments of an extended fight where Xykon hammered relentlessly at an opening.

[Yendor]

This also assumes that Dorukan did not find ways to protect his tower/dungeon against teleportation, which would be one of the first things you'd want to do if you're trying to ward a place against high level casters (right after protecting it from scrying effects). In which case it may very well be reasonable that Dorukan didn't prepare multiple castings of teleport if his dungeons' own defenses mean teleporting is a one-way trip no matter what.

And in fact, Dorukan did protect his tower from teleportation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).

Anyway. The result of the fight is a foregone conclusion; the exact details are irrelevant and it adds nothing to have Xykon's speech interrupted by Dorukan casting ever more feeble spells. What Dorukan does is not the point of the scene.

[RatElemental]

This also assumes that Dorukan did not find ways to protect his tower/dungeon against teleportation, which would be one of the first things you'd want to do if you're trying to ward a place against high level casters (right after protecting it from scrying effects). In which case it may very well be reasonable that Dorukan didn't prepare multiple castings of teleport if his dungeons' own defenses mean teleporting is a one-way trip no matter what.

Oh, he did, it was called Cloister (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). He'd have to have researched some kind of epic teleport spell to get past his own protections. The RAW is not clear on whether energy drain will tank epic spell slots and when, as far as I know.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, he did, it was called Cloister (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). He'd have to have researched some kind of epic teleport spell to get past his own protections.

Unless he slipped in a backdoor. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html)

Edit: This hardly matters, mind you, since cloister allows people to freely teleport within its area of effect.

[danielxcutter]

The summoning version of Gate doesn’t last too long, so I assume it wouldn’t have worked in the Cloister for the purposes of escape even if he had enough slots left by then.

Also nobody really prepares Teleport once you have the Greater version.