requesting feedback for a possible house rule

[vasilidor]

well, two actually. both concerning characters with racial hit dice and level adjustments.
the one for level adjustment is for every five levels reduce the level adjustment by one. for example when a half dragon hits level five in what ever class total they have their total ecl remains at 7. they gain experience as a level seven character and require the experience to from 7 to 8 in order to advance again.

the one for racial hit dice is when a monster levels up, say a succubus into sorcerer, they trade away one of their demon hit dice for a sorcerer level.
in example a succubus sorcerer with 6 racial hit dice and one level of sorcerer advances to a second level of sorcerer, they can (not must) trade one of their 6 racial hit die for another level of sorcerer becoming outsider 5 and sorcerer 3. possibly limiting this to every other level.

[noob]

well, two actually. both concerning characters with racial hit dice and level adjustments.
the one for level adjustment is for every five levels reduce the level adjustment by one. for example when a half dragon hits level five in what ever class total they have their total ecl remains at 7. they gain experience as a level seven character and require the experience to from 7 to 8 in order to advance again.

the one for racial hit dice is when a monster levels up, say a succubus into sorcerer, they trade away one of their demon hit dice for a sorcerer level.
in example a succubus sorcerer with 6 racial hit dice and one level of sorcerer advances to a second level of sorcerer, they can (not must) trade one of their 6 racial hit die for another level of sorcerer becoming outsider 5 and sorcerer 3. possibly limiting this to every other level.
Those two combined can make red ethergaunts extra powerful at high levels.
Maybe give it on a case per case basis depending on whenever the base creature is cool enough to be worth their la or not?

[Arael666]

I would probably keep the second houserule and replace the first one in favor of the oficial LA buyoff rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

[vasilidor]

Those two combined can make red ethergaunts extra powerful at high levels.
Maybe give it on a case per case basis depending on whenever the base creature is cool enough to be worth their la or not?

I have no idea what those are.

[Nifft]

well, two actually. both concerning characters with racial hit dice and level adjustments.
the one for level adjustment is for every five levels reduce the level adjustment by one. for example when a half dragon hits level five in what ever class total they have their total ecl remains at 7. they gain experience as a level seven character and require the experience to from 7 to 8 in order to advance again.

the one for racial hit dice is when a monster levels up, say a succubus into sorcerer, they trade away one of their demon hit dice for a sorcerer level.
in example a succubus sorcerer with 6 racial hit dice and one level of sorcerer advances to a second level of sorcerer, they can (not must) trade one of their 6 racial hit die for another level of sorcerer becoming outsider 5 and sorcerer 3. possibly limiting this to every other level.

1 - Seems expensive, but might be okay. Have you worked out how much more XP the under-leveled characters will get? Do they catch up over the next 5 levels?


2 - Some racial HD are better than others. Outsider & Dragon are notably good; Humanoid and Fey are notably bad. Something like a Lizardfolk or Grig will always want to trade; something like a Tome Dragon might not.

2a - What do you do when exchanging the HD disqualifies the character from a feat or PrC or whatever? Like if you trade away four Succubus levels for Sorcerer, your base Reflex and Fort saves will decrease.

2b - What do you do about racial HD which grant spellcasting, like an Aranea (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea.htm)? If the player trades in a racial HD for a Sorcerer level, does the PC keep the original spellcasting and stack an extra level on top? That seems too strong.

[vasilidor]

1 - Seems expensive, but might be okay. Have you worked out how much more XP the under-leveled characters will get? Do they catch up over the next 5 levels?


2 - Some racial HD are better than others. Outsider & Dragon are notably good; Humanoid and Fey are notably bad. Something like a Lizardfolk or Grig will always want to trade; something like a Tome Dragon might not.

2a - What do you do when exchanging the HD disqualifies the character from a feat or PrC or whatever? Like if you trade away four Succubus levels for Sorcerer, your base Reflex and Fort saves will decrease.

2b - What do you do about racial HD which grant spellcasting, like an Aranea (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea.htm)? If the player trades in a racial HD for a Sorcerer level, does the PC keep the original spellcasting and stack an extra level on top? That seems too strong.

1. I have not checked the math on the experience point change but the idea is to keep them from falling to far behind. yes I get that some (many) races get bonuses to constitution and intelligence that offset that, but eventually there comes a point where the choice to be a monster stops being a benefit and turns into a mistake, if one is doing a more combat focused game. consider playing a half dragon from level 1 in a otherwise ecl 1 party. you hit level 2 at 4000 experience points. everyone else is level 3, part way to 4. you hit level 3 at a total of 9000 experience points where everyone else is at level 4 and most of the way to 5. at 15000 experience points you hit level 4, they are at 6. at 22000 you hit level 5 and they are at 7 and change, and so on.
I have never seen the game run that way. ever. no one has ever chosen to run a race with a level modifier higher than 0 in any game I have run and I think I know why.
they all try to do it as "you get no levels until everyone else hits level 4." which causes many people to balk at the thing and makes it all worse I think, maybe. I should probably run the math through now that I think of it.
2. I get that some are always going to make the trade and others may not.
2a. if they already took the class or the feat, I would just let them keep it.
2b. their class abilities in something like this would probably absorb the racial abilities. if the person using that as a race was going into druid, it could be explained away as their dedication to being a druid over riding their natural spellcasting abilities. though this is why I like spheres of magic, it would just stack. if they were spell like abilities instead of race functions as class X spellcaster they would probably just keep those. most of the games I play in generally run into the teens for levels. by that point a few level 1 or 2 spells granted by race (or even level 3 in some cases) are not that big of a deal in the face of everything else available to them.

[Nifft]

I have never seen the game run that way. ever. no one has ever chosen to run a race with a level modifier higher than 0 in any game I have run and I think I know why.
they all try to do it as "you get no levels until everyone else hits level 4." which causes many people to balk at the thing and makes it all worse I think, maybe. I should probably run the math through now that I think of it.


Yeah at least figure out two things:

- Do they catch up?

- Do you want them to catch up?


Additional things to consider:

- If this lost XP were turned into magic items, how much would those items be worth?

- Do the racial benefits seem vaguely comparable to that quantity of gear?

[RandomPeasant]

I would not try to write a set of rules that fixes all the problems with monster PCs sight unseen. You will almost certainly end up either making it possible to get power for nothing by picking the right race/class combination, making the race/class combinations people want to play unplayable, or both. What you should do is say "I will work with you to ensure that characters with non-standard races end up at an appropriate power level", then work with any players who want to play Vrock Barbarians or Trent Druids or something to ensure that they end up at a power level compatible with the rest of the group.

[Voldine]

The racial hit dice trade-in will be invaluable for some and laughable for others. Someone upthread already mentioned outsider and dragon hit dice as being notably preferable to basically any class, so no succubus run by an intelligent player is ever going to trade outsider hit dice for Sorcerer.

Here's why: outsider hit dice give you the best possible values in every category except hit points. You get +1 bab, all three saves at good values, 8 skill points plus intmod, and 1d8+conmod HP. No class matches that. Sure, there are classes that give more health with the same bab progression, but they don't give you anywhere near the skill points and all but one has at least one bad save.

Dragons are even less likely to trade in racial hit dice due to that being a factor in calculating the save DC for their breath weapons.

[Silly Name]

Concerns about the value of racial HD aside, I'd suggest avoiding any rule that makes you recalculate all the values tied to HD so often. I agree with Nifft that the calculations may create some weird cases where the PC no longer qualifies for feats or PrCs due to shifting BaB, Saves and Skills.

The first rule seems fine to me on a first read - high LA monsters and templates are still gonna be a sore, but more reasonably-costed ones would work fine. Of course, it's also pretty similar to UA LA buyoff, if a bit more simple and direct.

[noob]

I have no idea what those are.

Creatures with extra high int (the other stats are merely above average or high), wizard casting superior to their hit dice, a supernatural mind control, immunity to level 2 or lower arcane spells, an attack that damage all mental stats at once (mostly useful against animals for the turning comatose from 0 int effect), an ex infallible total vision ability working within 40 feet.
Basically even with its la it is not awful and once you bought back most if its la it is just ridiculous.
To describe what they are in terms of role: red ethergaunts are the lowest ranking denizens of a society practising slavery that lived on the material plane in the far past that went to the ethereal plane and which is convinced that science and knowledge are the most important things except for science pertaining to the divine.

[vasilidor]

I think I would disallow ethergaunts on general principle.
I have limits on what creature I allow my player to play.
none larger than large, no smaller than small, no SR better than 5+character level, no stat bonus higher than +4 to 1 stat. yes I know that throws out half dragons.
this is part of a larger list of things that if your characters race goes outside of I just say no. any changes I would make for one player I would need to make for someone else. but in essence, I would allow a homebrew race that hit the absolute boundaries in all categories, If the rest of the players were doing something comparable.

Edit: I have now taken the time to go through the math on a +3 level adjustment with no racial hit die on a character. If progression starts at level 1 and they are allowed to level up when they get enough experience to do so, they never lag behind the rest of the group by more than 2 levels. for something like a half dragon or half celestial, I would see no issue with this. completely worth while in my opinion. that said I think that teiflings and aasimar are over valued, slightly.

[noob]

I think I would disallow ethergaunts on general principle.
I have limits on what creature I allow my player to play.
none larger than large, no smaller than small, no SR better than 5+character level, no stat bonus higher than +4 to 1 stat. yes I know that throws out half dragons.
this is part of a larger list of things that if your characters race goes outside of I just say no. any changes I would make for one player I would need to make for someone else. but in essence, I would allow a homebrew race that hit the absolute boundaries in all categories, If the rest of the players were doing something comparable.

Edit: I have now taken the time to go through the math on a +3 level adjustment with no racial hit die on a character. If progression starts at level 1 and they are allowed to level up when they get enough experience to do so, they never lag behind the rest of the group by more than 2 levels. for something like a half dragon or half celestial, I would see no issue with this. completely worth while in my opinion. that said I think that teiflings and aasimar are over valued, slightly.

So ironically this list of restrictions disallows half dragon which is considered weak and allows saint which is considered as the rare +2 la template that is strong enough to be considered worth taking even with the la due to the cool ability list that is long like an arm and includes really powerful stuff(immunities, at will ability that combines globe of invulnerability with circle of protection against evil, some at will boosts and so on).
Your list also allows dark creature which is another template that is considered strong due to the overwhelming boosts to skills it grants.
By the way sr is often considered a penality because you have to use an action to drop it when you want to be boosted (or the person boosting you have a risk to waste their spell) unless you hand-waived that restriction away but it is sure that if you remove restrictions on an ability it becomes stronger suddenly.
In general templates that are very strong are either templates with very high numerical values relatively to their level adjustment(the most ridiculous offenders in that category are loth touched(+6 to two stats for +1 la), the dark creature template(absolutely ridiculous boost to sneaking)), templates that grants ability lists without end(saint is very strong in that category) and templates that grants ridiculous immunities without penalties(Vecna blooded and necropolitan).

[vasilidor]

A more complete list of things not allowed:
the total attribute bonuses cannot be more than +6.
no more than +4 to a single attribute.
no more than a -4 to a single attribute.
no spell like abilities or otherwise that grant higher than a second level spell.
no larger than large.
no smaller than small.
no more than 2 RHD.
no SR greater than 5+ character level, this includes things like magic immunity.
no natural armor greater than 2.
your character must be able to communicate with the other characters.
your character must be able to walk down a street without causing a panic.
your character must be able to use tools.

These may be changed based on the nature of the game we are playing, but all of them represent issues I have encountered in a game I have run or played in. As I post this I realize I missed dealing with DR and could probably have been more permissive with Natural Armor. mostly I play and run pathfinder these days.

[JNAProductions]

A more complete list of things not allowed:
the total attribute bonuses cannot be more than +6.
no more than +4 to a single attribute.
no more than a -4 to a single attribute.
no spell like abilities or otherwise that grant higher than a second level spell.
no larger than large.
no smaller than small.
no more than 2 RHD.
no SR greater than 5+ character level, this includes things like magic immunity.
no natural armor greater than 2.
your character must be able to communicate with the other characters.
your character must be able to walk down a street without causing a panic.
your character must be able to use tools.

These may be changed based on the nature of the game we are playing, but all of them represent issues I have encountered in a game I have run or played in. As I post this I realize I missed dealing with DR and could probably have been more permissive with Natural Armor. mostly I play and run pathfinder these days.

With this list… I think you’re better off just making custom templates or races as fitting for your PCs. Seems easier to me.

[RandomPeasant]

With this list… I think you’re better off just making custom templates or races as fitting for your PCs. Seems easier to me.

Yeah. The rules around monster PCs in 3e RAW are quite complicated and don't work very well. As I said earlier, far better to work with people to ensure you're supporting concepts they want to play. Otherwise you'll end up in a situation where the guy who just wanted to play a Sorcerer says "well, might as well be Draconic" and the guy whose heart was set on "Drider Warlock" discovers that he can't play what he wants (or that it's awful to the point of being unplayable, which is pretty much the same thing).

[vasilidor]

I allow custom races. which is how I sometimes find more things to add to the list.