Question about Warlock build ... CL vs dips

[schreier]

I am working on my new warlock, and am torn ... going Glaivelock I think.

I believe I clearly need CL11 to get vitriolic blast to deal with SR and spell immune creatures.

Since I am building to level 13, that gives me 2 levels to deal with. One of the two is clearly going to be binder, since I am including 3 levels of hellfire warlock.

The two main options I see are swordsage and marshal. I haven't seen much love for marshal, but it seems to have good synergies.

If I go swordsage, I think I would dip at a high enough level to pick up a few good utilty powers (shadow jaunt, cloak of deception, etc). I would probably use a feat to pick up assassin's stance so I could get craven.

For marshal - could get charisma to dex (including AC) or charistma to spell penetration. My current build with gear has cha 18, so +4 to penetrate spell resistance seems pretty strong. Am I missing anything?

[Troacctid]

Have you looked at my Warlockopedia? It includes a section on multiclassing with some suggestions for dips.

Binder makes sense. I like rogue a little better than swordsage since it saves a feat and gives you better skill points to support Naberius's face abilities—also, Craven asks for sneak attack as a class feature, so you get to not worry about that ambiguity. Swordsage is also fine though.

Marshal doesn't give you Cha to AC if you pick Motivate Dexterity (you'd need battle dancer for that), but it is still a solid choice either way, assuming your Cha is high enough.

[schreier]

Have you looked at my Warlockopedia? It includes a section on multiclassing with some suggestions for dips.

Binder makes sense. I like rogue a little better than swordsage since it saves a feat and gives you better skill points to support Naberius's face abilities—also, Craven asks for sneak attack as a class feature, so you get to not worry about that ambiguity. Swordsage is also fine though.

Marshal doesn't give you Cha to AC if you pick Motivate Dexterity (you'd need battle dancer for that), but it is still a solid choice either way, assuming your Cha is high enough.

I've spent a lot of time on the warlockpedia :)

I knew dex would not be added to AC with the Marshal dip - would you take fighter with sneak attack instead for the BAB and HP? Or you like the skills from the rogue?

[Troacctid]

I knew dex would not be added to AC with the Marshal dip - would you take fighter with sneak attack instead for the BAB and HP? Or you like the skills from the rogue?
You've already hit the +6 BAB mark and you don't have enough levels to make it to +11, so BAB isn't a huge concern IMO. I think the skill points are more valuable. If you think you can make it work without the extra skills, though, fighter is a valid alternative.

[Thurbane]

Not sure if this helps, but the Shackled City hardcover (which shares the same official status as Dragon Compendium) has the feat Practiced Magic, which works basically the same for SLAs that Practiced Spellcaster does for spells.

Although from memory, Invocations key off Warlock level rather than CL?

[Troacctid]

Although from memory, Invocations key off Warlock level rather than CL?
Only a couple of them do, e.g. dark one's own luck.

[Gruftzwerg]

Have a look at my signature glaivelock for some optimization suggestions:


1. CHA is often dumped by glaivelock builds due to vitriolic blast.
Consider to go for a max DEX build with CON as secondary stat. Weapon Finesse is a good option for this build path. Maybe even push INT to get some more skills (see below)

2. Escalation Mage
Shadow Haste is the best way to Quicken your Eldritch Glaive. Doubling your attacks per turn a few times per day is great.

3. Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest > Binder 1
Dipping Binder is imho a wasted lvl. Solving our issue with a feat is much more elegant. Finally, the feat solution also works when the ability is used twice per turn due to quickened glaive. (see my build for a better feat explanation)

4. Swordsage
Can be an interesting dip. Especially to get Assassins Stance. Also can help to push hide + move silently. Not mandatory, but still an interesting choice to consider.

5. Flexible Mind feat (hide + move silently)
This feat from dragon magazine gives you 2 class skills to choose.

6. Nightmares Made Real
This invocation is pure gold for meleelocks. It gives you (and only you!^^) basically HIPS in it. This is the reason why you should try to max move silently + hide.

7. Marshall
Imho not really fitting for a glaivelock. It's best suited for craftlocks (warlock 12 / chameleon 2 / marshall 1) with max CHA to push UMD into nirvana. Combined with Epic Scribe Scrolls (DWK for early access) you can now scribe any epic lvl spell you can dream of.

[tiercel]

3. Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest > Binder 1
Dipping Binder is imho a wasted lvl. Solving our issue with a feat is much more elegant. Finally, the feat solution also works when the ability is used twice per turn due to quickened glaive. (see my build for a better feat explanation)


This one is very much in Ask Your DM First territory, since

1) not everyone seems to read the interaction of Strongheart Vest and Hellfire Warlock the same way
2) different DMs have different levels of lactose tolerance/intolerance, even aside from how they read the actual rules,
3) some DMs may be fine with the legality of the combo but also feel that siphoning off incarnum-soulstuff to feed Hell may have RP or alignment consequences

Just make sure you know what you’re getting into at your table!

It’s also worth noting that rods of bodily restoration (MIC) are relatively cheap, if you don’t mind actually tanking some Con damage and patching up afterwards. (The feasibility of this will of course partly depend on the typical length and number of combats per adventuring day… and it’s certainly not as strong an option, but it IS cheaper.)

[Gruftzwerg]

This one is very much in Ask Your DM First territory, since

1) not everyone seems to read the interaction of Strongheart Vest and Hellfire Warlock the same way
2) different DMs have different levels of lactose tolerance/intolerance, even aside from how they read the actual rules,
3) some DMs may be fine with the legality of the combo but also feel that siphoning off incarnum-soulstuff to feed Hell may have RP or alignment consequences

Just make sure you know what you’re getting into at your table!

It’s also worth noting that rods of bodily restoration (MIC) are relatively cheap, if you don’t mind actually tanking some Con damage and patching up afterwards. (The feasibility of this will of course partly depend on the typical length and number of combats per adventuring day… and it’s certainly not as strong an option, but it IS cheaper.)

1) It's RAW and any other interpretation (is a houserule and) relies on the flawed assumption that reducing damage to 0 equals immunity which is mechanically totally wrong. Or they argue that you are not the "target" of the attack, but that is not a requirement for Strongheart Vest to work. SV only asks you to be affected by the attack (3 possible options: 1. you are the target of an attack, 2. you take splash dmg from an attack, or 3. you dmg yourself with an attack)

2) I agree that the DM/table should set the balance lvl of the party. But if Binder is fine, then SV shouldn't be a problem either. Besides, "damage" is the worst optimization, so IMHO no need to houserule it away. But that is something every table should decide for themselves.

3) Warlocks already have alignment restrictions that reflects that. Imho, not an issue here if you ask me.

[Thurbane]

There are already some VERY lengthy threads about Strongheart Vest and how in interacts with Hellfire Warlock. Some recent enough to post in.

I'd recommend not having a 3 page derail in this thread, since it seems to be something people are weirdly passionate about.


Only a couple of them do, e.g. dark one's own luck.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said "key off"; I should have said "access to" or "meet reqs for".

[tiercel]

There are already some VERY lengthy threads about Strongheart Vest and how in interacts with Hellfire Warlock. Some recent enough to post in.

I'd recommend not having a 3 page derail in this thread, since it seems to be something people are weirdly passionate about.

This. I’m not taking sides on this issue, just saying that given there have been strong disagreements on the forums, I’d say it is a Very Good Idea to find out where one’s own DM stands (because “but you must allow it, it’s RAW” isn’t necessarily convincing to DMs at an actual (or online) table).

Ditto on whether a DM will just have “no problem” with Strongheart Vest if they have no problem with a Binder dip; after all, if one of those options just mechanically *costs less* (a feat vs a whole level) then some DMs’ “cheese alert” may be set off; this is a playstyle preference and worth checking.

Finally, warlock only has to be “any evil or any chaotic” — a typical Warlock PC could easily be CG, but feeding incarnum soulstuff to the living embodiments of Lawful Evil for your personal benefit could arguably be a RP/alignment issue in your game. (That could, of course, be an interesting complication, but it’s good to know if that’s what you’re signing up for.)