Weapons of Legacy

[schreier]

I know there are "Homebrewed" Legacy Items, and the items in the Weapons of Legacy book and in the Tome of Battle.

There are two more in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits (Spidersilk (armor) and Thaas (bow)), one in Barrow of the Forgotten King (Merthuvial)- a sword), Fortress of the Yuan-Ti (The Aegis Inviolable (shield), Nanietharil (scale armor), Banrhialorg (staff/rod), Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (Holy Symbol of Ravenkind and Sunsword), and Expedition to Undermountain (Crown Adamant).

Am I missing any?

Are any of the official ones "worth it?" The closest I've found at the gloves (bullybasher gauntlets and ghostfolly gloves)

[RandomPeasant]

As with any time you're asking if something is "worth it" it depends on your reference point. My recollection is that Weapons (really Items) of Legacy are generally not a good enough deal to be worth the additional penalties they impose over just buying items, unless you're in a "use every part of the buffalo" situation where all the random abilities it gives you are things your character gets value out of.

[schreier]

As with any time you're asking if something is "worth it" it depends on your reference point. My recollection is that Weapons (really Items) of Legacy are generally not a good enough deal to be worth the additional penalties they impose over just buying items, unless you're in a "use every part of the buffalo" situation where all the random abilities it gives you are things your character gets value out of.

Agreed ... also trying to figure out an item for Legacy Champion, so need to pick one - so it has value in qualifying you for the class.

[Elves]

For melee 2handers, Sunblade from Ravenloft is a bastard sword that does double damage and x3 crit multiplier to undead just with the least legacy. Only penalty is -1 on skills and some hp. Don't bother unlocking the later legacies, just keep it in the bag and GMW it when you're on an undead adventure.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For melee 2handers, Sunblade from Ravenloft is a bastard sword that does double damage and x3 crit multiplier to undead just with the least legacy. Only penalty is -1 on skills and some hp. Don't bother unlocking the later legacies, just keep it in the bag and GMW it when you're on an undead adventure.Does it actually grant the ability to crit undead?

[Elves]

Truedeath crystals are only 10k.
Checked and the bonus is also against negative energy plane creatures, so that must be the intended crit use case.

[Saintheart]

Are any of the official ones "worth it?"

Nope.

There are precious few abilities on any of the weapons that aren't duplicated outright in weapon qualities, feats, or features otherwise available without significant penalties attached to them.

The only use I've seen people get out of a Legacy Weapon is where the weapon is used for its lowest-level ability and then never advanced. Or used just to qualify for Legacy Champion and nothing else.

The entire problem with Weapons of Legacy is the thinking behind its design, set out in the book itself: because you get the legacy weapon's abilities for a significantly lower gp cost than you would in an orthodox game, you therefore have to pay some "price" for the weapon in some other way.

Presumably the best price the designers could think of are the penalties imposed on you for utilising the weapon: negatives to saves, attack rolls, hitpoints, or lost spell slots and so on in the case of caster Legacy Weapons. The abilities the weapon gives you as the levels go by are thought - by the designers - to be more significantly powerful, so therefore they think the penalties should ramp up to compensate for that. That was where the miscalculation lay.

The workaround for it, RAW legal, is that when a legacy weapon is being designed, the GM is encouraged to provide meaningful penalties on its use. There is nothing to stop a GM duplicating a book Legacy Weapon and simply knocking off the personal cost penalties. But at the same time I haven't seen any real workaround that entirely deals with the balance problems this creates. The imbalance between casters and noncasters - "Casters rule everything, so you can throw anything you like at the martials and it won't upset balance" - isn't an answer in my mind. The issue is more about "If one guy has a Legacy Weapon which is massively cheaper than everyone else's and gives the same abilities as everyone else, why shouldn't everyone have one?"

What really underlies all the issues with Weapons of Legacy, in my mind, is that the abilities for a Legacy Weapon are in essence identical to weapon qualities or abilities you get elsewhere in the PHB or DMG. There are one or two that are a little different, but for the most part you're just picking up what you could buy anyway and not suffer a penalty to use. That's the problem.

On this one I think most reasonable people would have to concede that there was a design consideration for why they didn't let Legacy Weapons do new, unique things that other weapons already couldn't. That design consideration is "the more the cognitive load and complexity you introduce, the harder the game is for a DM to adjudicate, and the more unexpected interactions you introduce." (And 3.5 already has entire forums built on its unexpected interactions and how to exploit them.) Build a set of unique powers for Legacy Weapons, and it's one more thing for the DM to remember and balance for when (if) writing adventures. Also makes it harder to write general-market adventures for it. Also, build a Legacy Weapon that does something unique for one player, and everyone else looks on in envy with their +1 weapons and whatnot. We can argue all night about whether this was wise or unwise, but I'd guess that was what was going on in the designers' minds when they built the thing: upset the entire apple cart of weaponry with a new set of unique, persistent abilities right at the end of 3.5's run, or just allow your players to do the same things they already could in a slightly different way. They chose the latter. And that's why Legacy Weapons have massive punishments in place for using them.

Can't make Legacy Weapons overly powerful: then the party is unbalanced with a single player who nukes targets with his Skyward Sword. Can't target the Legacy Weapon either: doing so gimps the player who was wielding it since he'll build his character around his Skyward Sword.

Can't realllly make the penalties less: because having to take constant penalties on your primary ability to use your most powerful weapon is not attractive to players, QED. Situational or tactical penalties are different: e.g. Power Attack. That is, same problem with having massive penalties as time goes on.

When you get right down to it, the idea of a weapon growing in power as the player grows in levels is not something that one should be trying to make general rules about, other than (in my humble view) just letting the weapon automatically increase from a +1 to a +5 weapon over 20 levels or something similar. Characters are too varied and games too choice-dependent to really create a power progression that's going to be satisfying for anyeveryone. Weapons of Legacy is rubbish on its execution, but given the way 3.5 was built I really doubt there's any other way to do it without creating another imbalance or unmanageable issue elsewhere.

[schreier]

I tried to come up with an item that worked for the character (Karsite warlock with Queen Morwel as his patron)

Haven't come up with rituals, but the first would somehow be related to presenting oneself to the court
The second and third could be stopping evil or killing evil outsiders or something?

Using WBL, the item at least makes sense (ring of invisibility by itself would be 20k for example)
At level 13, you would have:
Invisibility (20,000)
Deflection +3 (18000)
Charisma +2 (4000)
at will faerie fire(no idea)
so that's at least 42k + faerie fire for the bargain price of 18000 (2500 for the ring of sustenance, 2000 for the first ritual, 13500 for the second)

Signet of the Queen's Court (Ring of Sustenance)


Level
Skill Check Penalty
Hit Points Loss
Power


5


Deflection +1


6

2
Fire of the Heart (Faerie Fire (at will)


7
-1




8

2
Deflection +2


9

2



10

2
Charisma +2


11


Deflection +3


12

2



13
-2

Invisibility (at will)


14

2



15


Charisma +4


16

2
Cunning


17


Deflection +4


18
-3
2
Charisma +6


19

2
Lion's Pounce


20

2
Deflection +5

[Saintheart]

at will faerie fire(no idea)
so that's at least 42k + faerie fire for the bargain price of 18000 (2500 for the ring of sustenance, 2000 for the first ritual, 13500 for the second)

A ring of Faerie Fire at will would likely be worth about 4,000 gp: spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp x 2 because the spell is a min/level spell.

Therefore say about 46k. And that's before you factor in the cost increase because all of these abilities are being added to an item that has a specific slot on the body, i.e. the ring slot: that increases the price by x1.5 for each added ability, so it's more like 64k worth of abilities for 18k actual outlay. Question being: does a -3 to your skill rolls and -20 hitpoints -- remembering you're pumping AC and boosting your primary stat by +6 and adding invisibility at will, which heavily negates the likelihood that a difference in hitpoints will make an impact -- compensate for getting your abilities at less than one third of the price?

[Ramza00]

The problem with weapon of legacy cost tables, penalty wise is that it punishes full bab the most, the three fourth bab classes a middle amount, and for half bab classes it is a cost of 1 to 2 feats.

It should be the opposite but it is what it is.

[schreier]

A ring of Faerie Fire at will would likely be worth about 4,000 gp: spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp x 2 because the spell is a min/level spell.

Therefore say about 46k. And that's before you factor in the cost increase because all of these abilities are being added to an item that has a specific slot on the body, i.e. the ring slot: that increases the price by x1.5 for each added ability, so it's more like 64k worth of abilities for 18k actual outlay. Question being: does a -3 to your skill rolls and -20 hitpoints -- remembering you're pumping AC and boosting your primary stat by +6 and adding invisibility at will, which heavily negates the likelihood that a difference in hitpoints will make an impact -- compensate for getting your abilities at less than one third of the price?

There is the cost in HP and skill rolls (although I'm at like -10hp and -2 skills right now) - but the slot location would be less relevant in this case because the deflection is already ring based and could be added to the ring of invisibility already.

The main reason for the item though is the qualification for the legacy champion class for hellfire warlock purposes

[Ramza00]

If you are going to do Hellfire Warlock and a Weapon of Legacy with the Invisibility at Will make sure to grab "intelligent item" any of the 3 options for then your Weapon of Legacy is casting the Invisibility and thus you can always be shrouded hidden from the world.

[Tiktakkat]

I know there are "Homebrewed" Legacy Items, and the items in the Weapons of Legacy book and in the Tome of Battle.

There are two more in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits (Spidersilk (armor) and Thaas (bow)), one in Barrow of the Forgotten King (Merthuvial)- a sword), Fortress of the Yuan-Ti (The Aegis Inviolable (shield), Nanietharil (scale armor), Banrhialorg (staff/rod), Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (Holy Symbol of Ravenkind and Sunsword), and Expedition to Undermountain (Crown Adamant).

Am I missing any?

Forge of War (Eberron)
Ramethene Sword
Hillcrusher
Sylmsarra's Shawl

Dragon Magic (3.5 book)
Wyrmbane Helm

White Plume Mountain (WotC Web Adventure)
Blackrazor
Wave
Whelm

Outside the Mountain (WotC Web Enhancement)
Frostrazor

Mind's Eye (WotC Web Article Series)
Arik's Vengeance

[schreier]

Forge of War (Eberron)
Ramethene Sword
Hillcrusher
Sylmsarra's Shawl

Dragon Magic (3.5 book)
Wyrmbane Helm

White Plume Mountain (WotC Web Adventure)
Blackrazor
Wave
Whelm

Outside the Mountain (WotC Web Enhancement)
Frostrazor

Mind's Eye (WotC Web Article Series)
Arik's Vengeance

Thank you! Exactly what I was looking for. I've never found a complete listing of all items of legacy before.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Truedeath crystals are only 10k. MIC may not be available. It certainly wasn't when Weapons of Legacy was published two years prior.


Checked and the bonus is also against negative energy plane creatures, so that must be the intended crit use case.The negative energy plane is described as being all but lifeless, with the vast majority of the creatures that are on the plane being undead, so that's a bust.

Chalk up another win for how amazing that book is.*





*That was sarcasm, for anyone unaware.

[Elves]

MIC may not be available. It certainly wasn't when Weapons of Legacy was published two years prior.

The negative energy plane is described as being all but lifeless, with the vast majority of the creatures that are on the plane being undead, so that's a bust.
Looks like they turned up a few: https://www.enworld.org/threads/negative-energy-plane-creatures.127898/
So it's in fact, incredibly useful for all the times your party will be up against trillochs and xeg-yi

In our post-MIC world, I think Sunsword with Least Legacy is pretty good. You could use legchamp to swap out its +enhancement at 6th for valorous or something.

--

Here's a fun trick: WOL page 9, renouncing a legacy item..

If you wish, you can renounce your connection with a legacy item... You recover any personal costs you previously paid (such as lost hit points or penal-ties), but not any gp costs paid for legacy rituals. If you regain lost skill points, you must allocate them immediately. Treat this as if you were pur-chasing skill ranks for the last class in which you advanced a level.

Say you're 20th level with Knowledge Dev and just took a duskblade level, you could pay for and then renounce a bunch of skill point cost legacy items, reallocating those skill points to Knowledge skills that weren't class skills for you at earlier levels. Could also be useful to meet prereqs.

[schreier]

What are the uniquely powerful abilities in legacy items?

SCARAB OF ARADROS (MIC 139)
(Lesser Legacy E)
Scarab Shell (Su): At 15th level and higher, as long as you have one arcane spell remaining (either a prepared spell not yet cast or a spell slot not yet used), you benefit from the effects of a shield spell. Caster level 10th.

MAU-JEHE (MIC 114)
(Lesser Legacy D)
Cunning (Su): At 13th level and higher, you are never considered flat-footed.

EXORDIUS (MIC 80)
(Greater Legacy G)
Mantle of Sacred Protection (Su): At 18th level, you gain spell resistance equal to 5 + your character level

SYLMSARRA’S SHAWL (Forge of War 128)
(Lesser Legacy E)
Master of Illusion (Su): At 13th level, all illusion spells of 3rd level or lower that you can cast are extended, as with the Extend Spell feat. Using this ability does not change the spell slot of the extended spell. A spontaneous spellcaster (such as a sorcerer) must still take a full-round action when using this ability, just as if using a metamagic feat he possessed. You can choose not to use this ability when casting a spell (if, for instance, you are a sorcerer who does not wish to take the extra casting time). You cannot use this ability if you cannot already cast illusion spells.

[thorr-kan]

Thank you! Exactly what I was looking for. I've never found a complete listing of all items of legacy before.
Here's the table I use for reference:

Legacy Items outside Weapons of Legacy:
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft:
Holy Symbol of Ravenkind: held object; good aligned clerics and paladins
Sunsword: Bastard Sword; good aligned character

Dragon Magic:
Wyrmbane Helm: crown; arcane caster, martial weapons, speak draconic

White Plume Mountain:
Blackrazor: greatsword; (no prerequisites)
Wave: trident; any neutral alignment
Whelm: Warhammer; Dwarf, warhammer proficiency

White Plume Mountain web enhancement:
Frostrazor : great-sword; Improved Critical: Greatsword

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits:
Spidersilk: Mithril shirt; arcane caster
Thaas: composite longbow; Weapon Focus Longbow, non chaotic, non evil

Expedition to Undermountain:
Adamant Crown: crown; Dwarf, access to divination spells

The Forge of War:
Hillcrusher: heavy flail; con13, medium or smaller
Ramethene Sword: bastard sword; spellcraft 2 ranks, EWP: bastard sword
Sylmsarra's Shawl: cloak; will save +5; bluff, diplomacy and sleight of hand 4 ranks each

Barrow of the Forgotten King
Merthuvial: ?; cannot be CN or any evil; 2 ranks Diplomacy, BAB+3

The Sinister Spire
Banrhialorg: quarterstaff/lesser metamagic rod of extend spell; able to cast arcane spells, 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), have a metamagic feat

Fortress of the Yuan-Ti
The Aegis Inviolable: heavy shield; ?; shield prof, BAB+3, 2 ranks of Knowledge (nobility and royalty) or Knowledge (religion)
Nanietharil: ?; medium armor prof, 4 ranks in two of Knowledge (nature), Hide, and/or Survival; must have elvish or orc blood to use the 11th and higher abilities.

Mind's Eye (WotC Web Article Series)
Arik's Vengeance

[Elves]

Here's another interesting one I found (from White Plume Mountain web adventure):

Frostrazor (greatsword)

- 1 ongoing damage and 1 Con damage each round to target when you crit (ex, so can't be dispelled, and no save)

- use finger of death or enervation as swift action whenever you crit

- 3/day ice storm, i'll take it

the personal costs are really harsh (-4 saves and -3 atk), but that's pretty cool

[Bohandas]

As with any time you're asking if something is "worth it" it depends on your reference point. My recollection is that Weapons (really Items) of Legacy are generally not a good enough deal to be worth the additional penalties they impose over just buying items

What was even the point of those penalties? I never really understood that. They change then from being sort of like half-artifacts to being cursed items that also do useful tgings

[RandomPeasant]

What was even the point of those penalties? I never really understood that. They change then from being sort of like half-artifacts to being cursed items that also do useful tgings

The point of the penalties is that WotC was deathly afraid of writing something people might want to use. There's no reason for any of it, and if you opt to use Items of Legacy in your campaign, I strongly recommend that you omit them.

[TerrickTerran]

yeah, I love WoL for flavor and realized the best way to use it was to drop the stupid penalties and instead just make them complete the quests and make them a bit harder if necessary.

[JNAProductions]

Here's another interesting one I found (from White Plume Mountain web adventure):

Frostrazor (greatsword)

- 1 ongoing damage and 1 Con damage each round to target when you crit (ex, so can't be dispelled, and no save)

- use finger of death or enervation as swift action whenever you crit

- 3/day ice storm, i'll take it

the personal costs are really harsh (-4 saves and -3 atk), but that's pretty cool

The italicized bit... What's the end clause on it?

Or does it just last forever?

[Elves]

The point of the penalties is that WotC was deathly afraid of writing something people might want to use. There's no reason for any of it, and if you opt to use Items of Legacy in your campaign, I strongly recommend that you omit them.
The idea is it's a tradeoff for gaining a more powerful item than normal for your level at a cheaper cost than usual.

The issue is neither of those things had to be true. It could've just been a system for creating scaling items with some special powers drawn from a list.
And of course, having costs feels bad.

The problem with just axing the personal costs in the system as-is is that the items are too cheap. You need to raise the gp cost.

As far as rewriting the system, if one wanted to keep the idea of giving out more powerful items than normal, one compromise idea is personal costs as an alternative to paying the ritual cost. Thus, you could get an unusually powerful item at a low level, but you're saddled with the personal costs as a balancer until you're able (or choose) to "pay the item off". And the same thing happens with each successive power.

Another approach that might make personal costs feel less bad is by making them unique to the item. You have a powerful fire sword, the personal cost is cold vulnerability. But that makes it a game of finding a cost that doesn't hurt you, so I can see why -- in addition to being simpler -- they chose penalties to baseline stats.


The italicized bit... What's the end clause on it?

Or does it just last forever?

ending it takes 1 FRA for every round it has been active. so it can be done out of combat but in combat they can't do it without screwing themselves. pretty dope.

thoughts for what a good build would be to go with it? Presumably a Large char who could wield the greatsword in one hand, or maybe a diopsid. Disciple of Dispater would make a natural combo because it wants Imp Crit and you can't make the sword keen in any case.

[RandomPeasant]

The problem with just axing the personal costs in the system as-is is that the items are too cheap. You need to raise the gp cost.

By what standard? I think that it should be an advantage to you that your sword is some kind of cool and unique thing, because that encourages people to have cool and unique weapons, which is more interesting than simply buying the version of the best weapon for your combat style that has the largest bonus you can afford. Within the specific context of 3.5, uniquely powerful weapons that are tied to specific characters also gives you a great tool for addressing imbalance. Having a explicit rules for how much of a buff the Fighter should get from his artifact sword is good for the game.

[Morphic tide]

Point of order, Fighter's issue is spotlight problems. It has plenty of ability to run over combat in several ways even in core. The issue is that there is nothing else the Fighter is good for, including reaching the fights.

As for making the tradeoffs worthwhile, it's important to note benchmarks for them. The difference between d10 full-BAB and d8 average BAB classes is frequently a dramatic amount of straight-from-box damage potential.

Weapons of Legacy totally ignore this. They aren't just a sub-optimal trade, they are a farce of one.