OOTS #1238 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Metastachydium]

Riftwolf, you are a genius (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632931-Orange-voice-a-minimitd/page2).

[RMS Oceanic]

Beauty's in the eye of

[Windscion]

Yeah, I did not...
See That Coming.

(The Beholder bit. The ambush was kinda telegraphed.)

[Ruck]

Not a bad plan, but I get the suspicion that Serini might be underestimating the Order's capabilities here.

Also, cue speculation that the beholder is the same one as #32 and it ends up being the "unexpected ally."

[Rogan]

Awwww...
That's an adorable little monster!

Can I get one as a pet? Or at least one made of plush, for cuddling?

[dancrilis]

So far this is being a fairly successful ambush - and nice to see that Serini has lots of friends.

[Psepha]

Oh my GODS, I did not see that coming.

Though now that I think about it, Haley did promise they'd call (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html).

[Fyraltari]

Took me a while to parse that "Mimi shut the door" wasn't an order. Does anyone know what Mimi is exactly? And what was holding Elan in place?

Also, I guess that shoots down the theories that "Orange" would be related to the MitD.

Also, also:

https://s2.qwant.com/thumbr/0x0/f/7/73efa0ac37ef118f7151b347f88e36da0c3ea58d46c94fa783 277a6e707b4d/giphy.gif?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia% 2FQMyNAUZfnSRJC%2Fgiphy.gif&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=1

[Windscion]

Awwww...
That's an adorable little monster!

Can I get one as a pet? Or at least one made of plush, for cuddling?

Eh, you could get a plush pumpkin and draw eyes on it.

Fyr: Mimi is probably a mimic.

[Alaris]

For a fighter-type, Roy sure has a terrible Fortitude Save. He seems to go down to Poison at every opportunity it's used.

That said, it's going to be an interesting fight in the dark, with magic turned off.

[Bisqwit]

So uh, am I correct in understanding that Sunny’s vision projects an antimagic field of some sort?

[RMS Oceanic]

For a fighter-type, Roy sure has a terrible Fortitude Save. He seems to go down to Poison at every opportunity it's used.

That said, it's going to be an interesting fight in the dark, with magic turned off.

To be fair this also took down O-Chul, who probably has the best fortitude save this side of epic. She's just that good.

[Shining Wrath]

A pet beholder? That's epic level mount, right there.

And yes, things are going south rapidly for the Order. V more or less useless, Roy down, Haley blind. But ... dwarves resist poisons pretty effectively.

[kierthos]

So uh, am I correct in understanding that Sunny’s vision projects an antimagic field of some sort?

Yep. Central eye of of a Beholder (at least a standard one) is an anti-magic cone.

[Alaris]

To be fair this also took down O-Chul, who probably has the best fortitude save this side of epic. She's just that good.

That's fair. I hadn't thought about that.

And it is most likely epic poison, since she is 21+.

Aww well, Roy wasn't going to do much against the flying Beholder anyway.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, you could get a plush pumpkin and draw eyes on it.

Fyr: Mimi is probably a mimic.
Makes sense, thanks.

A pet beholder? That's epic level mount, right there.

Hey! Adopted children are neither pets or mounts!

[RMS Oceanic]

So uh, am I correct in understanding that Sunny’s vision projects an antimagic field of some sort?

Yes, beholders have Anti-Magic cone and a broad range of spells which accomodates for Elan's enforced shenanigans

[GeneralVryth]

An Anti-magic field is a fun new wrinkle to see how the Order gets out of.

[zql]

damn friggin parody as fair use!

[Psepha]

For a fighter-type, Roy sure has a terrible Fortitude Save. He seems to go down to Poison at every opportunity it's used.

That said, it's going to be an interesting fight in the dark, with magic turned off.

Let's be fair here, that poison even took down Ochul and he must have sky-high constitution

EDIT: RMS Oceanic beat me to it lol

[Shining Wrath]

So uh, am I correct in understanding that Sunny’s vision projects an antimagic field of some sort?

Yes, the central eye of a beholder projects a cone of antimagic. The other little eyes do various things - petrification, disintegration, that sort of fun stuff.

[Ruck]

Not a bad plan, but I get the suspicion that Serini might be underestimating the Order's capabilities here.

Also, cue speculation that the beholder is the same one as #32 and it ends up being the "unexpected ally."

The more I think about it, the funnier it would be if it was, and a running gag down the stretch was the comic constantly breaking records for longest time between callbacks.

Didn't catch the anti-magic field at first; that makes Serini's plan better, although I'm assuming it can't really succeed here (but I'm also assuming they'll have some opportunity to state their case).

[kierthos]

Let's be fair here, that poison even took down Ochul and he must have sky-high constitution

EDIT: RMS Oceanic beat me to it lol

Plus, Roy isn't your bog-standard dumb as a sack of rocks fighter. Don't get me wrong, he's strong, and he's tough, but he's definitely (stat-wise) the most well rounded character in the party.

And all it takes is failing one save. Unless he's faking, but there's no real advantage in doing that, that I see.

[Linneris]

Also, cue speculation that the beholder is the same one as #32 and it ends up being the "unexpected ally."

That's almost certainly it. Rich, you're a genius!

I wonder if anyone's considered the beholder from #32 in the guessing thread.

[Psepha]

Hang on... if memory serves, Elan knows Neutralize Poison - there may be hope for Roy yet! Just need to sort out that antimagic field

[kierthos]

Hang on... if memory serves, Elan knows Neutralize Poison - there may be hope for Roy yet!

They're in an anti-magic cone. No spell-casting is possible while that's still active.

Now, Haley probably has some non-magical, pointy way of making it blink... but she has to be able to see it. Or at least target it effectively.

[pendell]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

I suppose there really isn't any reason he can't use a be- or whatever homebrew suspiciously looks like a 3.5E beholder. (a holderbe? A redloheb? ) and the original strip was simply a parody joke. Even so, I don't like this development. As a rule, the strips are funny because Rich finds a way to surprise and delight us while remaining in the confines of the rules he's established for what we are to expect. For him to pull something out of left field like this makes it hard for me to continue suspending disbelief. It makes it too obvious that the author CAN pull anything out if he wants to, and that makes it harder to believe there are any stakes to this outcome.

Be that as it may, I think I'm going to like Serini. She seems pretty good at befriending monsters and the relationship she has with 'Sunny' does suggest a fair amount of love there.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Psepha]

They're in an anti-magic cone. No spell-casting is possible while that's still active.

Now, Haley probably has some non-magical, pointy way of making it blink... but she has to be able to see it. Or at least target it effectively.
Yeah forgot about that on my original post lol. Hope someone has a sunrod or something

[dancrilis]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1226.html) the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Also interesting Serini has access to anti-magic on demand and still thinks Xykon is unbeatable - which might say a lot about how out of depth The Order are.

[Edward15]

Oh, boy. When Roy comes to, regardless of if the Order is captured or not, he is going to give Seirini an earful!

[Psepha]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

I suppose there really isn't any reason he can't use a be- or whatever homebrew suspiciously looks like a 3.5E beholder. (a holderbe? A redloheb? ) and the original strip was simply a parody joke. Even so, I don't like this development. As a rule, the strips are funny because Rich finds a way to surprise and delight us while remaining in the confines of the rules he's established for what we are to expect. For him to pull something out of left field like this makes it hard for me to continue suspending disbelief. It makes it too obvious that the author CAN pull anything out if he wants to, and that makes it harder to believe there are any stakes to this outcome.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Hmmmm, not sure, but I count nine eyes.

[Gwynfrid]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

I suppose there really isn't any reason he can't use a be- or whatever homebrew suspiciously looks like a 3.5E beholder. (a holderbe? A redloheb? ) and the original strip was simply a parody joke. Even so, I don't like this development. As a rule, the strips are funny because Rich finds a way to surprise and delight us while remaining in the confines of the rules he's established for what we are to expect. For him to pull something out of left field like this makes it hard for me to continue suspending disbelief. It makes it too obvious that the author CAN pull anything out if he wants to, and that makes it harder to believe there are any stakes to this outcome.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

C'mon. Calling Rich out for ignoring "established rules" constructed when the strip was a joke-a-page D&D rules parody is just unfair. This is totally a surprise, using a classic monster in a way that's completely unexpected. I find it deligthful, for my part.

[Turin_19]

Riftwolf, you are a genius (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632931-Orange-voice-a-minimitd/page2).



This is just scary.

[pendell]

Hmmmm, not sure, but I count nine eyes.

I counted. I only see 8 small eyes plus the large central eye. The D&D beholder has 10. So, yeah, probably a beholder-like homebrew.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thales]

Where's Rich's hint that there will be a major character who appeared in exactly one page?

[RMS Oceanic]

Where's Rich's hint that there will be a major character who appeared in exactly one page?

In his conclusion to the Utterly Dwarfed book. And I think he rules that speaking while invisible won't count as "appearing". :smallsmile:

[Psepha]

I counted. I only see 8 small eyes plus the large central eye. The D&D beholder has 10. So, yeah, probably a beholder-like homebrew.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Don't they have 11 eyes in D&D? 10 eye stalks and a central eye.

[Metastachydium]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

I suppose there really isn't any reason he can't use a be- or whatever homebrew suspiciously looks like a 3.5E beholder. (a holderbe? A redloheb? ) and the original strip was simply a parody joke. Even so, I don't like this development. As a rule, the strips are funny because Rich finds a way to surprise and delight us while remaining in the confines of the rules he's established for what we are to expect. For him to pull something out of left field like this makes it hard for me to continue suspending disbelief. It makes it too obvious that the author CAN pull anything out if he wants to, and that makes it harder to believe there are any stakes to this outcome.


Objection overruled. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html)

[Alaris]

Hang on... if memory serves, Elan knows Neutralize Poison - there may be hope for Roy yet! Just need to sort out that antimagic field

Aside from the Anti-Magic field, Neutralize poison doesn't remove current damage from Poison. It only prevents further damage.

He will likely need some form of restoration, depending on if it hit his ability scores, or had a sleep effect or something.

[RMS Oceanic]

Aside from the Anti-Magic field, Neutralize poison doesn't remove current damage from Poison. It only prevents further damage.

He will likely need some form of restoration, depending on if it hit his ability scores, or had a sleep effect or something.

Assuming it's the same stuff that got the paladins, it's only a tranquiliser, but still functions mechanically as a poison.

[hroþila]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

I suppose there really isn't any reason he can't use a be- or whatever homebrew suspiciously looks like a 3.5E beholder. (a holderbe? A redloheb? ) and the original strip was simply a parody joke. Even so, I don't like this development. As a rule, the strips are funny because Rich finds a way to surprise and delight us while remaining in the confines of the rules he's established for what we are to expect. For him to pull something out of left field like this makes it hard for me to continue suspending disbelief. It makes it too obvious that the author CAN pull anything out if he wants to, and that makes it harder to believe there are any stakes to this outcome.

Be that as it may, I think I'm going to like Serini. She seems pretty good at befriending monsters and the relationship she has with 'Sunny' does suggest a fair amount of love there.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Not sure if you're being serious, but originally the beholder wasn't ruled out against. The matter was unsettled in that comic. And since then, we've seen Z released from the very same copyright prison where the mind flayer was taken, and he mentioned on-panel that parody is protected speech so they had no case against him. Which would mean the beholder was established to be fair game years before this appearance.

[KorvinStarmast]

For a fighter-type, Roy sure has a terrible Fortitude Save. He seems to go down to Poison at every opportunity it's used.

That said, it's going to be an interesting fight in the dark, with magic turned off.
0. It's about time we got some action. Thanks, Giant, for turning it back up a notch.
1. As soon as the eye ray went off, my brain went "beholder" but I didn't ponder the reach back to #32 until the last panel.
2. Not sure how I feel about the wall trap mechanically; don't know 3.5e well enough to know what kind of thing that is. Narratively, it works fine for me, though.
3. Belkar letting loose with Bloodfeast somewhere during this encounter would be kind of cool. He's tall enough to reach up and maybe grab/grapple Sunny.
4. V falling due to fly being zapped was kinda funny, facial expression wise.
5. Minrah and Durkon still have darkvision.
6. Serini seems to be about to inflict "amnesia" on the Order, given her remark in the last panel.
7. Sunny the beholder? (Or Sonny the Beholder, since he calls her Mom?)
8. Haley lost a 10 GP bet, no, wait, she didn't bet the 10 GP.
9. Serini, clever little rogue that she is, is sitting up on the beholder so no anti magic in her improved invisibility.
10. Reaching back to Strip 277 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)(She's directing a purple worm cage in one of the panels): of course there's a beholder around. Serini collected dangerous monsters. Beholders have long been very tough monsters in D&D.

And lastly: Elan. I am trying to figure out how he had been charmed at long range, last strip, but I am going to guess that it was one of Sunny's eyes that did it.
Beholders usually have a charm eye, depending on sub type.

[Quebbster]

I must say the orange speech bubble was a nice hint. If I had reread #32 anytime recently, I might have made the connection. But probably not.

[Fyraltari]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

I suppose there really isn't any reason he can't use a be- or whatever homebrew suspiciously looks like a 3.5E beholder. (a holderbe? A redloheb? ) and the original strip was simply a parody joke. Even so, I don't like this development. As a rule, the strips are funny because Rich finds a way to surprise and delight us while remaining in the confines of the rules he's established for what we are to expect. For him to pull something out of left field like this makes it hard for me to continue suspending disbelief. It makes it too obvious that the author CAN pull anything out if he wants to, and that makes it harder to believe there are any stakes to this outcome.

Oh no, the D&D parody author used one of D&D's most iconic monsters in a dungeon full of monsters! How dare he?

[Curupira]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

I suppose there really isn't any reason he can't use a be- or whatever homebrew suspiciously looks like a 3.5E beholder. (a holderbe? A redloheb? ) and the original strip was simply a parody joke. Even so, I don't like this development. As a rule, the strips are funny because Rich finds a way to surprise and delight us while remaining in the confines of the rules he's established for what we are to expect. For him to pull something out of left field like this makes it hard for me to continue suspending disbelief. It makes it too obvious that the author CAN pull anything out if he wants to, and that makes it harder to believe there are any stakes to this outcome.

Be that as it may, I think I'm going to like Serini. She seems pretty good at befriending monsters and the relationship she has with 'Sunny' does suggest a fair amount of love there.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You'd be right if Rich hadn't written two comics, #789 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html) (last panel) and #518 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) (second-to-last panel), lampshading that D&D IP aren't really out of bounds when he feels like using them.

[Silly Name]

2. Not sure how I feel about the wall trap mechanically; don't know 3.5e well enough to know what kind of thing that is. Narratively, it works fine for me, though.

Not a trap, mechanically, but a clever use of a shapeshifter's skills. Mimi is probably a mimic or something similar.


5. Minrah and Durkon still have darkvision.

Yep. Racial darkvision is Ex, not Su or Sp, so it isn't turned off by antimagic zones.


And lastly: Elan, I am trying to figure out how he had been charmed at long range, last strip, but I am going to guess that it was one of Sunny's eyes that did it. Beholders usually have a charm eye, depending on sub type.

Considering the orange dweomer, most likely. Seems like Sunny has "Antimagic field" as his main eye power, a charm stalk, a telekinesis on, and perhaps a paralysis eyestalk judging from Elan's dialogue in panel 3.

[Fyraltari]

So is Sunny invisible whenever they close their eyes?


Belkar letting loose with Bloodfeast somewhere during this encounter would be kind of cool. He's tall enough to reach up and maybe grab/grapple Sunny.
I guess the antimagic would give it its natural size back? It doesn't seem to affect Haley's bag(s) of holding, though.


V falling due to fly being zapped was kinda funny, facial expression wise.
That happens to Vm a lot.

[Yirggzmb]

2. Not sure how I feel about the wall trap mechanically; don't know 3.5e well enough to know what kind of thing that is. Narratively, it works fine for me, though.

It appears to be a kind of creature. It has eyes, and Serini calls it "Mimi". Someone upthread suggested it could be a mimick, which seems logical to me.

[Fyraltari]

It appears to be a kind of creature. It has eyes, and Serini calls it "Mimi". Someone upthread suggested it could be a mimick, which seems logical to me.

Considering Serini called Mimi "she", Mimi definitely is a person(/creature, whatever).

[Timy]

2 questions :

- how does a bag of holding work into an anti-magic fields ? (I suppose it becomes a normal bag (empty) ?)

- what happens to a polymorphed creature in an anti-magic field (e. g. bloodfeast ^^)

[Alaris]

I guess the antimagic would give it its natural size back? It doesn't seem to affect Haley's bag(s) of holding, though.


It depends on if the effect on bloodfeast was permanent or instantaneous. If it was a permenant (and therefore ongoing) effect, it would be suspended by an Anti-magic field. If it was instantaneous, then it would have no effect.

For bags of holding, it would just turn off the interdimensional space part (if you open the bag, you don't see your stuff).

[Timy]

It depends on if the effect on bloodfeast was permanent or instantaneous. If it was a permenant (and therefore ongoing) effect, it would be suspended by an Anti-magic field. If it was instantaneous, then it would have no effect.

For bags of holding, it would just turn off the interdimensional space part (if you open the bag, you don't see your stuff).

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm

it seems to be a permanent effect :D

They just have to find a place to open the bag :D

[jdb-44]

To be fair this also took down O-Chul, who probably has the best fortitude save this side of epic. She's just that good.

Plus, Roy got hit with two darts at the same time. Serini wanted to take him out quickly.

[pendell]

Objection overruled. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html)

I'm a little slow this morning. I see a number of people disagree with me and I accept that. However, I'm a little puzzled as to how exactly this strip is a counterexample. I don't see anything that's obviously IP. Or is there another point you're trying to make?



It wasn't though. The Beholder joke was in the same strip as Z getting taken away, so Z coming back opened the door for the Beholder to be able to return.


*Sigh*. You and the other commenters are right. I guess the reason it was unexpected to me is because Z'zdtri was a major character with backstory and a significant part of the story. I could see bending the rules for something like that, less so for a common dungeon monster. At any rate, Rich did it and I'm sure it will turn out well.

Puzzled,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

It wasn't though. The Beholder joke was in the same strip as Z getting taken away, so Z coming back opened the door for the Beholder to be able to return.

[Nymrod]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1226.html) the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Also interesting Serini has access to anti-magic on demand and still thinks Xykon is unbeatable - which might say a lot about how out of depth The Order are.

Epic magic can largely ignore antimagic with a fairly easy to make caster level check. At worst they'd force him to waste one of his epic spell slots.

[Schroeswald]

You know what? I didn’t expect Serini to show up giant, invisible, riding a Beholder calling her mom and I don’t think anyone else did.

[dancrilis]

I'm a little slow this morning. I see a number of people disagree with me and I accept that. However, I'm a little puzzled as to how exactly this strip is a counterexample. I don't see anything that's obviously IP. Or is there another point you're trying to make?

Puzzled,

Brian P.

I believe the point being made is that strip 865 has carrion crawlers who are not in the SRD - as such your statement that 'Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD' doesn't hold up unless you are saying that such a rule only applies to 10 eyed monsters (and the monster in 32 only had nine eyes).

[Psepha]

It's dawning on me how smart this dungeon is in terms of theme. We were told that Serini built Kraagor's Tomb in such a way to reflect his belief in might, by filling it with powerful creatures. But it was done by a rogue, and so there was all the interest around the fact it was all cunningly hidden tunnels and subterfuge and such and so it felt like we were dealing with a rogue's vision, rather than a warrior's.

And now as more gets revealed it's turning out to be both - such an awesome blending of a rogue's traps and cunning in concert with the strengths and abilities of powerful creatures (both in the dungeon and in Serini herself). Really pleased with the theming of all this so far, it's great stuff.

[Quebbster]

It wasn't though. The Beholder joke was in the same strip as Z getting taken away, so Z coming back opened the door for the Beholder to be able to return.
The lawyers took away the Mind Flayer when the Bholder appeared.. Z hadn't even been introduced at that point.

[Fyraltari]

You know what? I didn’t expect Serini to show up giant, invisible, riding a Beholder calling her mom and I don’t think anyone else did.

What do you mean "giant"?

[Peelee]

The lawyers took away the Mind Flayer when the Bholder appeared.. Z hadn't even been introduced at that point.

Whoops. Well, Z was still taken away and reintroduced under the same guise, so close enough.

ETA: I was super late to that party anyway.

[Metastachydium]

I'm a little slow this morning. I see a number of people disagree with me and I accept that. However, I'm a little puzzled as to how exactly this strip is a counterexample. I don't see anything that's obviously IP. Or is there another point you're trying to make?


Carrion crawlers?

[Peelee]

Carrion crawlers?

The ant things in the last panel.

[In4Dimensions]

Confused as to why Serini’s first target would be the high-Fort fighter with magic-only ranged attacks and no darkvision.

[Alaris]

Confused as to why Serini’s first target would be the high-Fort fighter with magic-only ranged attacks and no darkvision.

I mean, most of the rest of the group is magic-inclined (V, Durkon, Elan), or sight-dependent (Haley, Belkar).

Granted, Roy is range-challenged without his magic sword, so....

She's probably planning on hitting more people with poison darts. Roy just happened to be the first target.

[pendell]

The ant things in the last panel.

Do they have to be specifically carrion crawlers? When I saw them I thought : Giant bugs. Species wasn't really important. We had an encounter with Giant Ants in Tarquin's book. That's why I didn't call that out as an out-of-rules example. And I'm still not convinced that those are specifically carrion crawlers, although I'm willing to be talked round.

But I didn't recognize them. A beholder, on the other hand, is recognizable to anyone who's ever played the game. I first saw them in the MM back in the 1980s. There are some monsters you just don't forget , no matter how much you want to. :Shudder:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hroþila]

The Order's chances of success diminish quickly when not led by Roy. If Serini is at all familiar with the Order (and she probably is, since they revealed their existence to her long ago, she knows what happened in the throne room of Azure City and she knew to pick Elan as bait), and she's confident enough that her poison will work regardless (and it was powerful enough to knock out O-Chul, so she has reason to be confident), it makes perfect sense to target him first, especially when there's an active anti-magic field.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Order's chances of success diminish quickly when not led by Roy. If Serini is at all familiar with the Order (and she probably is, since they revealed their existence to her long ago, she knows what happened in the throne room of Azure City and she knew to pick Elan as bait), and she's confident enough that her poison will work regardless (and it was powerful enough to knock out O-Chul, so she has reason to be confident), it makes perfect sense to target him first, especially when there's an active anti-magic field. Which means that Haley is the next entrant to dream land. 1) Smart 2) leader 3) has ranged attack.
Sweet dreams, Haley Starshine.

I now get the point (mechanically) about Mimi, the door being closed, and why Durkon's stone shape didn't work. I hadn't noticed the yellow eyes before the hole was filled on the first read through. Someone said "Mimi the mimic" and that seems a good guess. (Possible solution is that Minrah and Belkar beat the heck out if with her hammer and daggers, and the hole in the wall opens ... not betting the over on that).

[Jason]

Confused as to why Serini’s first target would be the high-Fort fighter with magic-only ranged attacks and no darkvision.

Because she's already got the casters shut down with the beholder's anti-magic eye and Roy is obviously the leader? Haley is probably her next target.

[littlebum2002]

You know what? I didn’t expect Serini to show up giant, invisible, riding a Beholder calling her mom and I don’t think anyone else did.

I wouldn't say ANYBODY


What if the hidden ally/minimitd is the Beholder from the early comics, who turns out to be subservient and nice to avoid copyright issues?

[Fyraltari]

Confused as to why Serini’s first target would be the high-Fort fighter with magic-only ranged attacks and no darkvision.

Because he's the leader. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StraightForTheCommander) In D&D if you take out the smartest player's character that player can still direct the others' actions, but Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons, with Roy unconscious the resrbof the team is much more likely to make bad tactical choices.

[hamishspence]

Do they have to be specifically carrion crawlers? When I saw them I thought : Giant bugs. Species wasn't really important. We had an encounter with Giant Ants in Tarquin's book. That's why I didn't call that out as an out-of-rules example. And I'm still not convinced that those are specifically carrion crawlers, although I'm willing to be talked round.

The coloured speech did raise the "aberration" possibility.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?402827-What-were-the-creatures-in-865

And they look very much like the MM carrion crawlers - green, tentacley.

[Vrock Bait]

YES, finally, the one-appearance major ally! Hype!

[ti'esar]

I wouldn't say ANYBODY

Honestly, that guy scares me sometimes.

[KorvinStarmast]

Idea: talk Serini into allying with the order, and then drop in on Xykon with the central eye going.
Xykon is spell based. AMF cancels him, and Reddie.

Too easy, not gonna happen, but that would be a way to defeat Xykon.
Or
Is a lich immune to anti magic ray from a Beholder in 3.5?

[hamishspence]

It won't destroy a lich, but it will cause all their spell-like and supernatural abilities to stop functioning. Aside from epic spells, they won't be able to cast spells while in the field either.

[The MunchKING]

Too easy, not gonna happen, but that would be a way to defeat Xykon.
Or
Is a lich immune to anti magic ray from a Beholder in 3.5?

Xycon IS a lich that's beaten most of his fight with casters by beating them to death with whatever's handy, or choking them to death with his bare Phalanges. AMF will probably stop him a lot less than you want it to.

[One Skunk Todd]

Would Lancer(Oona's mount) be an effective counter to Sunny?

[dancrilis]

Idea: talk Serini into allying with the order, and then drop in on Xykon with the central eye going.
Xykon is spell based. AMF cancels him, and Reddie.

Too easy, not gonna happen, but that would be a way to defeat Xykon.
Or
Is a lich immune to anti magic ray from a Beholder in 3.5?

Anti-magic doesn't work on artifacts so Redcloak will be fine ... and Xykon is a corporeal undead creature so he is unaffected unless summoned (although he would lose spell like and supernatural abilities)

Now most people read that to be 'unaffected' in the sense that he will be physically fine but in theory he might retain all his spell casting as that is not explicitly shut down for corporeal undead, a DM that did that or a player of an undead character that tried it would likely get a very dim look from the table, but it is a potential read.

[hamishspence]

Would Lancer(Oona's mount) be an effective counter to Sunny?Only if they aren't caught in the cone - the sonic blast won't function in the cone because it's Supernatural.


Anti-magic doesn't work on artifacts so Redcloak will be fine

Yup.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

[Nymrod]

I mean, most of the rest of the group is magic-inclined (V, Durkon, Elan), or sight-dependent (Haley, Belkar).

Granted, Roy is range-challenged without his magic sword, so....

She's probably planning on hitting more people with poison darts. Roy just happened to be the first target.

It isn't a very tall cave either. With Roy's strength, even without enhancements, a Jump Check can probably reach the beholder allowing for jumping charge attacks.

[SlashDash]

Did not see that coming... Hilarious, ingenious and awesome all at once.


I always wondered how the story would see an ending for the MITD. Obviously he'll be pals with Ochul.
I thought maybe he'll be his mount at some point. Now I'm wondering if maybe Serini would adopt him?

[Nymrod]

Xycon IS a lich that's beaten most of his fight with casters by beating them to death with whatever's handy, or choking them to death with his bare Phalanges. AMF will probably stop him a lot less than you want it to.

I mean the best bet is for them to spread. The main thing about a beholder's antimagic cone is that it is a CONE. If Xykon and Redcloak spread, soon either of them will be out of bounds. Sure, the beholder would then be able to hit them with eye rays but they most likely will be able to survive since all their buffs would be back on and both can KO a beholder in a couple of rounds of casting at most. Now of course Beholders are anything but idiots and usually try to face opponents in spaces where they cannot spread but if things really get messy I am sure Xykon knows more than Superb Dispelling and Cloister. All he needs is one epic damage spell and he can probably kill everyone in the room.

[Jay R]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

The Roger Rabbit rule applies. They aren't banned from the strip at *any* time. Only when it was funny.

[Paschendale]

Sunny is wonderful

[Blindfolded Ape]

The more I think about it, the funnier it would be if it was, and a running gag down the stretch was the comic constantly breaking records for longest time between callbacks.

At this rate, Team Evil's next ally is gonna be the goblin that bull rushed Durkon back in strip 1

[Crimsonmantle]

Only if they aren't caught in the cone - the sonic blast won't function in the cone because it's Supernatural.



Yup.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
Deities? Banjo to the rescue!

[gatemansgc]

Riftwolf, you are a genius (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632931-Orange-voice-a-minimitd/page2).

holy poop someone actually called it!

also i was NOT expecting a new comic so fast! i'm glad i check every day regardless of last posting time!

[Dire_Flumph]

So, given the 8 eyestalks (rather than 10), any speculation on what abilities it's missing from the standard beholder?

It definitely has telekinesis, at least one of the charms (guessing Charm Monster). I'm guessing it doesn't have the Sleep eye if Serini needs to use her darts.

Edit: I'd guess it's missing Finger of Death or Fear for the other one. Sunny just seems too good natured to use either (Disintegrate has lots of practical dungeoneering applications)

[One Skunk Todd]

So if Sunny is her go-to monster, does that mean the dungeon is called Philadelphia?

[hamishspence]

It definitely has telekinesis, at least one of the charms (guessing Charm Monster). I'm guessing it doesn't have the Sleep eye if Serini needs to use her darts.)
Given that Charm Monster works on ordinary people (it's a more powerful version of Charm Person, with no target restrictions) I would have guessed that the Charm Person one, being redundant, would be the one dropped.

[Timy]

So, given the 8 eyestalks (rather than 10), any speculation on what abilities it's missing from the standard beholder?

It definitely has telekinesis, at least one of the charms (guessing Charm Monster). I'm guessing it doesn't have the Sleep eye if Serini needs to use her darts.

Edit: I'd guess it's missing Finger of Death or Fear for the other one. Sunny just seems too good natured to use either (Disintegrate has lots of practical dungeoneering applications)

My guess is that it can have anysort of effect and all the effects will not be shared untile necessary (like Haley's wands ;))

[Edreyn]

Could Sunny really be her child? This means he is not a real beholder, but a druid or some other shapeshifter. Or maybe he is also a mimic, and it was Serini who canceled all magic, and he just pretends to big scary monster. Serini is all about cheating.

Can halfling and mimic be a pair and birth another mimic?

And if he is a real beholder... could it be the time of all Belkar's predictions to shoot?! Turn into stone or be disintegrated? :smalleek:

[Potatopeelerkin]

If this truly is the 'important ally that's only appeared on one page so far' then I guess congratulations are in order for Rogar Demonblud. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?604533-Major-character-who-has-only-appeared-on-1-page-in-the-entire-OOTS-saga/page8)

[CountDVB]

I’m pretty sure the big reason most of us didn’t guess Sunny was because of that SRD thing... good gravy for

[doctor23]

Not a bad plan, but I get the suspicion that Serini might be underestimating the Order's capabilities here.

Also, cue speculation that the beholder is the same one as #32 and it ends up being the "unexpected ally."

I came to this thread to see if that very thing happenes

[Rizzer]

I counted. I only see 8 small eyes plus the large central eye. The D&D beholder has 10.

This is a child beholder, his final eyestalk hasn't sprouted yet.

[Lord Torath]

Awwww...
That's an adorable little monster!

Can I get one as a pet? Or at least one made of plush, for cuddling?Knock yourself out (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=plush+beholder)!

My wife crocheted me an adorable 6-eye-stalk "eye sphere" about 4 inches across.

A bit more on-topic, instead of calling out the ambush as completely expected, Roy should have led with "Serini, is that you? Because, seriously, we really need to talk."

Also, I predict that anyone who predicts that the Order wins this fight is mistaken. It's going to be diplomacy and/or tranquilizer darts that carry the day. (Bonus points if it's Belkar who tells Serini about the gods being ready to pull the plug if Redcloak wins).

[NordicNooob]

Here's how the next turn might go:

Durkon throws his hammer at Sunny's eye. Elan cures Roy of poison (or Minrah does, dunno if Elan has cure poison), and Haley shoots blindly for a turn.

If Roy can be cured (epic level poison might be beyond any of the party's healing ability), he'll use his sword's ability to create light, and also to, y'know, throw a giant flaming greatsword at the squishy beholder eye. Roy was a very good first pick for taking out, not just because he's the leader.

If Sunny's eye is shut from Durkon's hammer, Serini will have to use her next round of darts on V so he doesn't dispel her invisibility or start blowing everything up.

If Haley lands a lucky shot on the eye, it'll serve the same purpose as Durkon's hammer. Keep in mind that Serini probably doesn't know about Durkon's hammer, since he's not used it anywhere she could've seen. Probably. Serini could have been watching the order for a while, since they started nuking gates.

V is kind of useless till the eye is shut and he'll get darted the turn after, so I don't see him being too useful except as wasting Serini's darts. Though, if he gets a stoneskin or something up before Sereni can shoot him, then she may have issues.

Elan is also kind of useless in direct combat, but he's a bard, so that's the point. He can heal, and maybe cure the poison darts, and that's worth something, and he can be a nuisance since he's a low value target.

Minrah is in the same boat as Elan, except she can see and heal better.

imo this is a winnable fight for the order, but Serini has more tricks up her sleeve that we won't be able to predict. Mimi can also pitch in a bit if things start going south, the order will be surprised even if they're suspicious of what Mimi actually is.

[Timy]

Durkon throws his hammer at Sunny's eye.

Do we know if Durkon Hammer is an artifact or merely a powerfull magic item ?

And if it is a magic Item, what are the rules for throwing a normal hammer ?

I guess it will be considered an improvised thrown weapon ? (and will do little to no damage)

[mjasghar]

Since Belkar doesn’t seem to recognise her that’s one theory gone
Also if this is the single appearance referred to this may turn out to good as that was going to be an ally - though only for a certain time
Which suggests something will happen and serini and company will go and hold back some other danger whilst the Order hunt down team evil.

[gatemansgc]

My guess is that it can have anysort of effect and all the effects will not be shared untile necessary (like Haley's wands ;))

this is a pretty good assumption tbh. though i'd definitely guess death was among the missing. what the other missing thing is, we will find out eventually!

[Squire Doodad]

Okay, that was a GOOD one. And whaddya know, same color as the Beholder from way back when. Magnificent.

[hamishspence]

Do we know if Durkon Hammer is an artifact or merely a powerfull magic item ?

And if it is a magic Item, what are the rules for throwing a normal hammer ?

I guess it will be considered an improvised thrown weapon ? (and will do little to no damage)
Normal light hammers have a range increment of 20 ft

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponDescriptions

which means that they count as regular thrown weapons rather than improvised weapons.

So does any item with the Throwing enchantment (10 ft increment in this case)

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#throwing

The Dwarven Thrower is a warhammer which gains a 30 ft range increment and the Returning enchantment, when used by a dwarf.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#dwarvenThrower

There's also the Hammer of Thunderbolts artifact

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#hammerofThunderbolts

but that requires gauntlets and a magic belt to use to its full function.

Still, Durkon is shown retrieving gauntlets as well as the hammer:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html

so it could be that, or at least The Giant's version.

[locksmith of lo]

aw i like sunny already! and i can truthfully say that i did not see that coming! so many answers! :smallbiggrin:

[Squire Doodad]

Snip

I think the general consensus is that it's a Hammer of Thunderbolts, or at least a variation on those rules?


Could Sunny really be her child? This means he is not a real beholder, but a druid or some other shapeshifter. Or maybe he is also a mimic, and it was Serini who canceled all magic, and he just pretends to big scary monster. Serini is all about cheating.

That strikes me as unlikely, this is a big reveal and the eye was very clearly being used to dispel the magic. Also, given "Mimi", I wouldn't be surprised if Serini treats a selection of her more beloved monsters as her kids or pets.

[RichTF]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 (strip 1226) the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Great spot and well remembered!

Makes we wonder now, if that left picture in 1226-panel-1 is indeed Sirini with the beholder (and it looks like it is), then maybe the other two pictures are also Sirini’s adopted children? The middle pic could be Mimi (who we just met), which means there could be a third one we’ve yet to see in a strip.

That rightmost pic is blue-ish in colour, and looks like some sort of flying creature. Maybe a dragon, or something similar? Looking at the high-res Patreon version of the strip, it looks like it has wings and a tail.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[dancrilis]

Durkon throws his hammer at Sunny's eye.

...
If Haley lands a lucky shot on the eye

I am dubious if the order will attack a child who is not attacking, seems like it might paint them in a bad light and go against Roy and Durkon's recent discussion about the importance of knowing peoples motivations.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So could someone tell me how a hypothetical fight between Xykon and Sunny would go? I don't see any exceptions in the antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) description to let a high level caster muscle through.

Also, I think in an antimagic field his ability to attack would be equal to an unarmed (albeit epic) commoner? and even his damage reduction is supernatural, so he's just be a high hp commoner.

Does a beholder have the means to attack someone while in the antimagic field?


It isn't a very tall cave either. With Roy's strength, even without enhancements, a Jump Check can probably reach the beholder allowing for jumping charge attacks.What do the rules say about not knowing how high you need to jump or how high the ceiling is?

I can totally picture Belkar accidently smashing his head against the ceiling.

[KorvinStarmast]

So if Sunny is her go-to monster, does that mean the dungeon is called Philadelphia? Given that Rich is from Philly, that's likely. :smallcool:

Can halfling and mimic be a pair and birth another mimic? Sure, why not?
And if he is a real beholder... could it be the time of all Belkar's predictions to shoot?! Turn into stone or be disintegrated? :smalleek: Belkar turns to stone, stops breathing, prophecy fulfilled.

This is a child beholder, his final eyestalk hasn't sprouted yet. But has its voice changed? :smallconfused:

For a lot of posts over a few years, I had posited that Serini had retired, and that one day we'd see a panel with Granny Toormuck, surrounded by various grandchildren, being asked to return to the adventuring life.
As it works out, this is a much better variation on that theme since it means that she did not give up her responsibility for protecting the gate, and she still has some kids to take care of. (So far, Mimi and Sunny, who knows if a few others aren't also lurking about?)
And when she meets MiTD, I think she'll want to adopt him too. :smallsmile:

[Squire Doodad]

I am dubious if the order will attack a child who is not attacking, seems like it might paint them in a bad light and go against Roy and Durkon's recent discussion about the importance of knowing peoples motivations.

The darts are coming from somewhere. Whether or not they're going to fight or just get briefly curbstomped, someone is clearly attacking.

[Velaryon]

Is it possible that Mimi is an earth elemental? I don't know whether stone shape would work on an elemental or not, but that was my first thought about what could have sealed the doorway.


Plus, Roy isn't your bog-standard dumb as a sack of rocks fighter. Don't get me wrong, he's strong, and he's tough, but he's definitely (stat-wise) the most well rounded character in the party.

And all it takes is failing one save. Unless he's faking, but there's no real advantage in doing that, that I see.

I think we can dismiss "Roy's faking it" pretty much out of hand. He's not an especially deceitful person, and more importantly he's got no way of knowing what poison is on those darts to even try to fake it.


Could Sunny really be her child? This means he is not a real beholder, but a druid or some other shapeshifter. Or maybe he is also a mimic, and it was Serini who canceled all magic, and he just pretends to big scary monster. Serini is all about cheating.

Can halfling and mimic be a pair and birth another mimic?

And if he is a real beholder... could it be the time of all Belkar's predictions to shoot?! Turn into stone or be disintegrated? :smalleek:

A standard druid can't transform into a beholder, and most prestige classes that would allow wild shaping into one would not give access to the form's eye rays. I think it's much more likely that Sunny is an actual beholder that Serini raised from infancy to regard her as a mother figure, as insane as that idea sounds. We know from her reveal to the paladins that she has more sympathy with monsters than the average adventurer, so it's not unbelievable to me.

[Squire Doodad]

Hmm
Would Stone Shape have worked if Durkon had used it on the wall slightly to the left of the "door"?

[mjasghar]

Confused as to why Serini’s first target would be the high-Fort fighter with magic-only ranged attacks and no darkvision.

Any observation of the Order shows that Roy is vital to them acting in a coordinated way and maximising their abilities

[Ionathus]

Not a bad plan, but I get the suspicion that Serini might be underestimating the Order's capabilities here.

Also, cue speculation that the beholder is the same one as #32 and it ends up being the "unexpected ally."

Agreed, this was a scary reveal and Roy being down is Not GreatTMTM, but I don't think this is going to be a curb-stomp battle. Maybe give Belkar & Haley a chance to shine as non-magic focused martials?

I never in a million, billion years would've guessed the beholder from #32 could be the unexpected ally. If it's true, that would be an absolute delight!

[TRH]

"And this is where they'll use Bloodfeast again" feels like the new "And this is where Belkar dies," but it actually seems likely here, if only because the Order doesn't have to do anything other than get him out of their bag, and they don't have a ton of other options. That'd give Serini the choice between giving them their magic back or having to fight the Allosaurus which seems a lot stronger than its in-game CR would indicate.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, I know this is a story so the Giant isn't actually going to drop a TPK on them but this is another point on my list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM". And here I thought Rich wasn't going to be doing that kind of fight much more, considering none of the fights in Utterly Dwarfed were that BS. The Battle of the Dining Room was mostly bad rolls. A beholder in an enclosed space that prevents the casters from getting out of its range and a rogue with poison strong enough to beat near-epic Fort saves.

Heck, I'd say they'd have better odds against Team Evil! Outside of the IFCC pulling V out of the fight or Team Evil figuring out the dungeon or some other outside force, the Order literally has no way to fight back and Serini has no intentions of listening to them so talking won't do much good either.

[Zombimode]

So could someone tell me how a hypothetical fight between Xykon and Sunny would go? I don't see any exceptions in the antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) description to let a high level caster muscle through.

Also, I think in an antimagic field his ability to attack would be equal to an unarmed (albeit epic) commoner? and even his damage reduction is supernatural, so he's just be a high hp commoner.

Does a beholder have the means to attack someone while in the antimagic field?

Only with its very weak bite. Pairing a Beholder with a creature that does not rely on magic for its offensive power is a good combo. But far from unbeatable.

For instance there is nothing stopping you from simply moving out of the affected area. If you're lucky you manage that with just your move action leaving you standard free to deal with the Beholder.
It might be a bit tricky if you're alone. But as soon you have allies (say Xykon + Redcloak) it becomes much easier to deal with a beholder. Barring verry specific circumstances it is not possible for a single Beholder to keep two spellcasters in its Antimagic Cone at the same time for too long.

Don't get me wrong. A Beholder IS a threat for a even an epic spellcaster like Xykon that has to be dealt with, but it can be dealt with.

[mjasghar]

I’m pretty sure the big reason most of us didn’t guess Sunny was because of that SRD thing... good gravy for

Maybe
Tbh I discounted it because when it appeared it didn’t have the Orange speech bubble

[danielxcutter]

Agreed, this was a scary reveal and Roy being down is Not GreatTMTM, but I don't think this is going to be a curb-stomp battle. Maybe give Belkar & Haley a chance to shine as non-magic focused martials?

I never in a million, billion years would've guessed the beholder from #32 could be the unexpected ally. If it's true, that would be an absolute delight!

They can't see, Serini's still invisible, their magical bonuses and only their magical abilities are disabled, and Serini's got strong enough poisons to drop Roy and O-Chul with ease.

I guess Durkon still has his hammer if it's an artifact oh wait most of its abilities don't work without the belt and gauntlets which are negated by the AMF yeah they're screwed.


"And this is where they'll use Bloodfeast again" feels like the new "And this is where Belkar dies," but it actually seems likely here, if only because the Order doesn't have to do anything other than get him out of their bag, and they don't have a ton of other options.

Unless Rich ignores the rules that's literally impossible. The AMF means they can't take Bloodfeast out of the bag, since that's also magic.

[KishouTheBadger]

I hope that halfling gets her butt kicked hard.

I know she's epic level and running on selective information but I'm still kinda annoyed of her ruining the hero's plans from cleaning up HER TEAM'S MESS.

[dancrilis]

Hmm
Would Stone Shape have worked if Durkon had used it on the wall slightly to the left of the "door"?

Probably not - if the stone is multidimensional it probably resists a lot of basic magic bypasses.


So could someone tell me how a hypothetical fight between Xykon and Sunny would go? I don't see any exceptions in the antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) description to let a high level caster muscle through.


As mentioned before it depends on how you read this line:

Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field.

Xykon's spell-like and supernatural abilities are shut down but he might not be affected by this:

The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

Leaving him with actual spells as something that is not listed as shut down for corporeal undead like the other two.

Seperately if his spells are affected (they likely are) then he can fall back on spells that work in an antimagic zone - wall of force, prismatic sphere etc and any he has personally researched and it would be well worth his while to research some, he likely knows how good antimagic is at messing with casters and is prepared for it.

[Sethis]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1226.html) the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Also interesting Serini has access to anti-magic on demand and still thinks Xykon is unbeatable - which might say a lot about how out of depth The Order are.

Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.


To be fair this also took down O-Chul, who probably has the best fortitude save this side of epic. She's just that good.

Yeah it has to be a crazy dc. Dwarves will have no recourse either because their racial is what a +4? O'chul's with Paladin Saves is way higher than than above an average cleric's save.

[Dire_Flumph]

I’m pretty sure the big reason most of us didn’t guess Sunny was because of that SRD thing... good gravy for

An "Eye Tyrant" has been in the sold for profit A Monster For Every Season (Winter) for a couple of years now, so I guess that should have been a clue that the SRD thing wasn't an ongoing problem.

Edit: oops, title correction

[hamishspence]

Early Installment Weirdness.

The mind flayer didn't have a coloured speech bubble either:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html


but the carrion crawlers did.

Speech bubbles can also change. Malack the vampire didn't "speak white text on black background" all the time.

[TRH]

Unless Rich ignores the rules that's literally impossible. The AMF means they can't take Bloodfeast out of the bag, since that's also magic.

The cone doesn't seem to cover the whole cavern, though, so Belkar could run out of it and open the bag. And Serini could well let him on the assumption that he's not a threat as a non-spellcaster who still can't see in here.

[Fitzclowningham]

Since the order are all clumped together in a rather narrow cave, they are all in one arc and Sunny can pretty easily keep all of them in the antimagic cone. However, Sunny's other eye rays are neutralized by the field, I can see a scenario in which Sunny alternates rounds with the antimagic and the other eye rays, which would produce a scenario where magic effects on the party toggle on and off. Such as:

The holding (?) effect on Elan
V's Flight and Light spell
The Baleful Polymorph on Bloodfeast
all the various buffs on the Order
and everything I'm forgetting

All of which could make for a pretty seriously chaotic scene, to which I'm very much looking forward :smile:

[dancrilis]

Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.


This has been mentioned before of his three known epic spells Epic Mage Armour, Superb Dispelling and Cloister do you think he should cast if faced with an antimagic field?

Also antimagic does work on epic spells it just doesn't work as well.

[gatemansgc]

This is a child beholder, his final eyestalk hasn't sprouted yet.

the one in 32 also had eight eyestalks!

and the generic avatar beholder for forums also has eight. may be a stylistic choice.

[hamishspence]

Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.


Well, not reliably.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld

Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally.

It would depend on Xykon's level - but if Xykon was level 21, the Beholder would need to roll D20+20 and get 12 or higher, each time the epic spell was cast, to see if it suppressed the spell.

But if Xykon was level 30, it would be impossible for the Beholder to suppress any of Xykon's spells because the DC of the check would be 41.

[Fish]

Belkar and Serini both keep giant monsters as friends and pets. They have more in common than I thought.

[gatemansgc]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1226.html) the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Also interesting Serini has access to anti-magic on demand and still thinks Xykon is unbeatable - which might say a lot about how out of depth The Order are.

did anyone in the 1226 thread notice this? O_O

[danielxcutter]

Probably not - if the stone is multidimensional it probably resists a lot of basic magic bypasses.

I have no idea why people who presumably know about 3.5e keep equating "multidimensional" with "protects against literally anything because PWOT". I've brought this up multiple times and I likely will again, but considering how incorporeality/etherealness works it simply seems that it exists on the Ethereal Plane as well so you can't just cheese it with Ghostform.


As mentioned before it depends on how you read this line:

Seperately if his spells are affected (they likely are) then he can fall back on spells that work in an antimagic zone - wall of force, prismatic sphere etc and any he has personally researched and it would be well worth his while to research some, he likely knows how good antimagic is at messing with casters and is prepared for it.

Yeah, that's not how it works. It just means that those creatures don't instantly fall over dead just because they're magical creatures. As for those spells, it just means once cast they don't shut off in an AMF, but once inside the area there's precisely one spell in the entire edition that can be cast in an AMF by default at all, and it's a 9th-level spell that only lasts a round and is tucked away in a corner of Lords of Madness.

Also sorcerers can't use spell research to learn more spells than they already know, there's a line about that in Ye Olde Peelee's SRD somewhere but I don't recall the specific section.


Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.

To be fair, the only epic spells we know Xykon knows are Cloister, Superb Dispelling, and presumably Epic Mage Armor. And Superb Dispelling can't get rid of the AMF due to it being a (Su) ability.

[Sethis]

This has been mentioned before of his three known epic spells Epic Mage Armour, Superb Dispelling and Cloister do you think he should cast if faced with an antimagic field?

Also antimagic does work on epic spells it just doesn't work as well.

I would be very surprised if an Epic spellcaster whose primary response to problems is "Kill it with raw power" does not have an offensive epic level spell. He hasn't bothered using it yet, or maybe he didn't think he needed one until after the Uber-Varsuuvius fight, but I suspect he has one now if he didn't then.

A single Hellball (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/hellball.htm) would easily 1 shot a beholder, and also probably anybody else in a 40 foot radius.

Plus as noted, Xykon is immune to poison and most of the Beholder's other rays, none of which can work without it turning off the AM field anyways. I don't think its bite even gets through his base Lich DR.

And even without an offensive epic spell, all he needs is to move out the area for 1 standard action and a Power Word Kill, Wail of the Banshee, Horrid Wilting or a number of other spells solves the problem.

[hamishspence]

Plus as noted, Xykon is immune to poison and most of the Beholder's other rays, none of which can work without it turning off the AM field anyways. I don't think its bite even gets through his base Lich DR.


He doesn't get his DR in the field - it's "Magic And Bludgeoning" - and any DR with "Magic" in it, is Supernatural.

Feb. 17, 2006 errata for the Monster Manual on page 1:

Damage Reduction

Damage Reduction is either extraordinary (Ex) or supernatural (Su). Use the following guidelines if it is not specified.

DR X/slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning should be (Ex)
DR X/adamantine should be (Ex)
DR X/— should be (Ex)
DR X/silver or cold iron should be (Su)
DR X/magic should be (Su)
DR X/chaotic, lawful, holy, or unholy should be (Su)

Plus the Lich template itself explicitly says so:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

Damage Reduction (Su)
A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

[TRH]

I just checked, and a Lich's DR is a supernatural ability, so it actually gets suppressed by the AMF. Still, he does have other options, between an Epic blast spell that it would feel weird for him to not have, just walking away and casting anything, letting some of Redcloak's called outsiders do the fighting for him, or possibly even ignoring it entirely depending on how one interprets the clause about corporeal undead being unaffected.

[danielxcutter]

I would be very surprised if an Epic spellcaster whose primary response to problems is "Kill it with raw power" does not have an offensive epic level spell. He hasn't bothered using it yet, or maybe he didn't think he needed one until after the Uber-Varsuuvius fight, but I suspect he has one now if he didn't then.

A single Hellball (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/hellball.htm) would easily 1 shot a beholder, and also probably anybody else in a 40 foot radius.

Plus as noted, Xykon is immune to poison and most of the Beholder's other rays, none of which can work without it turning off the AM field anyways. I don't think its bite even gets through his base Lich DR.

And even without an offensive epic spell, all he needs is to move out the area for 1 standard action and a Power Word Kill, Wail of the Banshee, Horrid Wilting or a number of other spells solves the problem.

Yeah, here's the thing. Virtually all of the epic spells in the ELH are totally worthless because the DCs are too high. Hellball is one of those them.

I mean yeah, Xykon'd probably win against Serini's team because if this was an actual game then he'd be complete BS for the optimization level of the group, but even then it's less about him being epic and more about him being undead. An epic version of Redcloak would be much easier to fight with either the Order's or Team Serini's skillsets.

[t209]

First time seeing a Beholder in OOTS.
Does he have a pet fish?

[goodpeople25]

Anti-magic doesn't work on Epic spellcasting, which Xykon has.



Yeah it has to be a crazy dc. Dwarves will have no recourse either because their racial is what a +4? O'chul's with Paladin Saves is way higher than than above an average cleric's save.
Cleric's have a high fort save the same as a Paladin/Fighter

Not sure if this is more or less credible than the assumptions with the symbol of insanity way back when. On the one hand Paladins have bad will saves, on the other this is one Paladin who we know has bad Charisma and that was a whole room of Paladins.

[Blue Dragon]

I am speechless. Can barely wait for the next strip.

[danielxcutter]

Cleric's have a high fort save the same as a Paladin\Fighter

Not sure if this is more or less credible than the assumptions with the symbol of insanity way back when. On the one hand Paladins have bad will saves, on the other this is one Paladin who we know has bad Charisma and that was a whole room of Paladins.

Xykon's Charisma is presumably in the low stratospheres. He was probably three times their average level and they probably used NPC budgets, and even then it seems like some of them made their saves.

So yeah.

[P. G. Macer]

First time seeing a Beholder in OOTS.
Does he have a pet fish?

Technically not the first time, as way back when in Strip 32, when the lawyers take away the mind flayer, a beholder makes a cameo. That beholder may actually be Sunny, too.

[danielxcutter]

Technically not the first time, as way back when in Strip 32, when the lawyers take away the mind flayer, a beholder makes a cameo. That beholder may actually be Sunny, too.

There was something about a character who only appeared in one panel so far playing a major part in this book I believe. Sunny hasn't appeared on-panel since then, as when the paladins were kidnapped Sunny was invisible.

[Skull the Troll]

the one in 32 also had eight eyestalks!

and the generic avatar beholder for forums also has eight. may be a stylistic choice.

Needs to be different and not called a beholder so that Serini doesn't get dragged off by the lawyers.


There was something about a character who only appeared in one panel so far playing a major part in this book I believe. Sunny hasn't appeared on-panel since then, as when the paladins were kidnapped Sunny was invisible.

Yes a VERY literal definition of "Appeared in only one strip." :) Well done GITP! I love that he was waiting 17 years for that phone call from them. :)

[Rogan]

Just a quick question or two:

Does Belkar still have lead sheet?
Could he use it to block the effect of the anti magic eye cone?

Not that I think it will happen, but hey you never know!

[hamishspence]

It's implied that some member of the Resistance got hold of it. Maybe they swiped it before he left Azure City?


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html

[danielxcutter]

Yes a VERY literal definition of "Appeared in only one strip." :) Well done GITP! I love that he was waiting 17 years for that phone call from them. :)

FWIW I had the benefit of hindsight. And not even my hindsight, it's been mentioned earlier in this thread.

And somehow Riftwolf managed to call it before the strip came out and I have no idea how.

[hamishspence]

And somehow Riftwolf managed to call it before the strip came out and I have no idea how.Corneel called it way back in 1226:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627312-OOTS-1226-The-Discussion-Thread&p=24940031&highlight=beholder#post24940031

[Alexandrite]

Roy and V could really benefit from using less words sometimes.

I think it's a big stretch to call the #32 beholder a character, and I'd feel underwhelmed if that did turn out to be the new ally.

[The MunchKING]

To be fair, the only epic spells we know Xykon knows are Cloister, Superb Dispelling, and presumably Epic Mage Armor. And Superb Dispelling can't get rid of the AMF due to it being a (Su) ability.

Wait, why are we assuming Epic Mage Armor?


I would be very surprised if an Epic spellcaster whose primary response to problems is "Kill it with raw power" does not have an offensive epic level spell. He hasn't bothered using it yet, or maybe he didn't think he needed one until after the Uber-Varsuuvius fight, but I suspect he has one now if he didn't then.

If he has 4 Epic spells, doesn't that mean he's at least level 36? IIRC, you only get 1 Epic spell slot per 10 points of Knowledge (arcana) you have (in Xykon's case I mean, I know Druids and Clerics get Nature or Religon) so he would need 40 ranks.

[danielxcutter]

Corneel called it way back in 1226:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?627312-OOTS-1226-The-Discussion-Thread&p=24940031&highlight=beholder#post24940031

Okay, but that's still like two people in among thousands and thousands of readers.

Edit:


Wait, why are we assuming Epic Mage Armor?

Because when O-Chul showed Roy Xykon's spell list there was a part cut off that seemed to be the first part of the name. And it's a spell he'd benefit from greatly.


If he has 4 Epic spells, doesn't that mean he's at least level 36? IIRC, you only get 1 Epic spell slot per 10 points of Knowledge (arcana) you have (in Xykon's case I mean, I know Druids and Clerics get Nature or Religon) so he would need 40 ranks.

Spellcraft ranks are only for the spell slots. If you can meet the DCs and have the resources, you can research as many as you please even if you possibly couldn't cast them all in a day.

Edit II: Technically ninja'd damnit.

[hamishspence]

If he has 4 Epic spells, doesn't that mean he's at least level 36? IIRC, you only get 1 Epic spell slot per 10 points of Knowledge (arcana) you have (in Xykon's case I mean, I know Druids and Clerics get Nature or Religon) so he would need 40 ranks.

You can know more spells than you can cast.

[The MunchKING]

You can know more spells than you can cast.

Oh, I thought that was Spells Known, like a Sorcerer. It's been a while since I read the Epic Caster Rules.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, I thought that was Spells Known, like a Sorcerer. It's been a while since I read the Epic Caster Rules.

Sorcerers are limited in their (normal) spells known; even research doesn't get around that.

That being said they're much more flexible with epic spells as well as normal spells as they don't need to prepare those either.

[bunsen_h]

Any observation of the Order shows that Roy is vital to them acting in a coordinated way and maximising their abilities

Though they've grown significantly; he's comfortable with getting drunk and going off to sleep it off, leaving them to handle things by themselves (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1187.html).

[The MunchKING]

Sorcerers are limited in their (normal) spells known; even research doesn't get around that.

Right, but I remembered it as you couldn't just WRITE epic spells down. They were all custom works of expanding spellcrafting beyond normal rules. SO everyone had to know them in their head like a Sorcerer rather than spellbooks or praying for it. And I remembered the number of spells you could know as being capped to a skill level, which apparently is wrong.

[Peelee]

Needs to be different and not called a beholder so that Serini doesn't get dragged off by the lawyers.
Thats debatable. Unfortunately, though, not on here.

Yes a VERY literal definition of "Appeared in only one strip."
I'd disagree; it's really the only interpretation that makes any sense. If the strip where they were invisible and talked on panel counted as an appearance, then the only way the "appeared in only one page" would be if it was an entirely new character we'd never seen, in which case the author pointing that out is kind of useless.

[Fyraltari]

Hmm
Would Stone Shape have worked if Durkon had used it on the wall slightly to the left of the "door"?
Since the walls appear to be made out of watermelon shells, I'd say no.

Okay, I know this is a story so the Giant isn't actually going to drop a TPK on them but this is another point on my list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM". And here I thought Rich wasn't going to be doing that kind of fight much more, considering none of the fights in Utterly Dwarfed were that BS. The Battle of the Dining Room was mostly bad rolls. A beholder in an enclosed space that prevents the casters from getting out of its range and a rogue with poison strong enough to beat near-epic Fort saves.

Heck, I'd say they'd have better odds against Team Evil! Outside of the IFCC pulling V out of the fight or Team Evil figuring out the dungeon or some other outside force, the Order literally has no way to fight back and Serini has no intentions of listening to them so talking won't do much good either.
It's almost like outside of games, one can never expect a fight they didn't plan for to be heavily skewed in their favour. :smalltongue:

I hope that halfling gets her butt kicked hard.

I know she's epic level and running on selective information but I'm still kinda annoyed of her ruining the hero's plans from cleaning up HER TEAM'S MESS.
While the Order of the Scribble didn't exactly do a stellar job, one had to remember:
Number of Gates destroyed: Scribble 0, Stick 2.

did anyone in the 1226 thread notice this? O_O
To be fair it mostly looks like a beholder when you know it's one, ot could have been any number of many-limbed creature.

[Doug Lampert]

So if Sunny is her go-to monster, does that mean the dungeon is called Philadelphia?

No, that means it's not Philadelphia, because there are lots of other monsters in the dungeon, and it's ALWAYS Sunny in Philadelphia.

[Peelee]

I think it's a big stretch to call the #32 beholder a character, and I'd feel underwhelmed if that did turn out to be the new ally.

I cant say anything either way about feeling underwhelmed, but the strip 32 Beholder is definitely a character. A super minor character, sure, but still a character.

[TRH]

While the Order of the Scribble didn't exactly do a stellar job, one had to remember:
Number of Gates destroyed: Scribble 0, Stick 2.


Honestly, I count Dorukan and Lirian as at least having assists for the destruction of their Gates, given the former's self-destruct mechanism was responsible for destroying his, while the latter's was destroyed by her chosen guardians panicking and tearing it in half. They at least made it easy to destroy their Gates, which is exactly the kind of behavior Serini condemns.

[Riftwolf]

Riftwolf, you are a genius (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632931-Orange-voice-a-minimitd/page2).

Wait, which thread are we linking here, the one where one of my guesses was the beholder from the early comic, or the one where I suggested Serini shuts down the Orders magic before attacking (and everyone going 'no way! Without magic a rogue is toast')?
Let's just say today has been a day of great vindication for me :D

[Metastachydium]

I cant say anything either way about feeling underwhelmed, but the strip 32 Beholder is definitely a character. A super minor character, sure, but still a character.

More like an actor, if you ask me. We never see 'em talk or act in-character.


Wait, which thread are we linking here, the one where one of my guesses was the beholder from the early comic, or the one where I suggested Serini shuts down the Orders magic before attacking (and everyone going 'no way! Without magic a rogue is toast')?
Let's just say today has been a day of great vindication for me :D

Technically the former, but who said you can't be a genius for any number of tangentially related reasons?

[Fyraltari]

I think it's a big stretch to call the #32 beholder a character, and I'd feel underwhelmed if that did turn out to be the new ally.

Considering said ally only appeared on one page before this book, who wouldn't you consider "a stretch"?

[Gensan]

Something I noticed... Roy is holding his sword in his hand in panels 4 and 7, but in panel 6 we see him from behind with his sword strapped to his back.

Art typo, or did he put his sword away for a moment while they entered the cavern?

[Riftwolf]

FWIW I had the benefit of hindsight. And not even my hindsight, it's been mentioned earlier in this thread.

And somehow Riftwolf managed to call it before the strip came out and I have no idea how.

To be fair, I guess a lot of things. If Miss October turns up as well though I'm really gonna be insufferable :)

[Fyraltari]

Something I noticed... Roy is holding his sword in his hand in panels 4 and 7, but in panel 6 we see him from behind with his sword strapped to his back.

Art typo, or did he put his sword away for a moment while they entered the cavern?
Most likely a mistake, something like this happened with Sigdi's axe back at the Dwarven Council.

[One Skunk Todd]

Something I noticed... Roy is holding his sword in his hand in panels 4 and 7, but in panel 6 we see him from behind with his sword strapped to his back.

Art typo, or did he put his sword away for a moment while they entered the cavern?

Maybe just the sheath that we don't normally see? Or didn't exist until just now? :)

[One Skunk Todd]

I don't know if it will matter now, but I just noticed both darts popped/fell out of Roy when he hit the floor.

[Gensan]

Having another thought: Why two darts for Roy?

For O'Chul and Lien, she only used one dart each.


Most likely a mistake, something like this happened with Sigdi's axe back at the Dwarven Council.

I remember that happening now. Makes sense, thanks.

[Ionathus]

Having another thought: Why two darts for Roy?

For O'Chul and Lien, she only used one dart each.

Probably because she learned her lesson that 1 dart on high-level adventurers doesn't take them down immediately. 1 round for Roy to think and strategize and maybe even attack is 1 round too many.

[Psionic Dog]

Roy probably got the O-Chull treatment. O-Chull made the first save and kept standing until the 1-minute second save. Aunty probably thought she didn't have time to wait that long round-2 and gave him a double to be sure.

Also what are the chances Roy's new improved temporal awareness is about to put the amnesia plan to the test?

[Xihirli]

Shouldn't Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator be regrowing about now?

[One Skunk Todd]

That big orange beanbag chair has to be Sunny's. And now I want to see him(her? it?) chilling in it. :D

[Pory]

Having another thought: Why two darts for Roy?

For O'Chul and Lien, she only used one dart each.

I think you also said the answer. Serini has learned that sometimes one dart is not enough to stop a bulky fighter immediately, so this time he used two for immediate effect.

I have another question myself: If Sunny is the same creature that appeared in comic #32 then why are the speech ballons different? Are Serini and Sunny affected by some spell/magic/whatever that transforms their voice :smallconfused:?

[Gensan]

Shouldn't Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator be regrowing about now?

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the anti-magic field from Sunny's gaze means they can't access anything inside of their Bags of Holding, so Bloodfeast is cut off from the effect that would end the Baleful Polymorph.

Now if Belkar can get out of the cone and remove Bloodfeast from the bag, that's another story...

[Peelee]

Wait, which thread are we linking here, the one where one of my guesses was the beholder from the early comic, or the one where I suggested Serini shuts down the Orders magic before attacking (and everyone going 'no way! Without magic a rogue is toast')?
Let's just say today has been a day of great vindication for me :D

As well it should be. I shall drink a coke in your honor tonight.

[hamishspence]

I have another question myself: If Sunny is the same creature that appeared in comic #32 then why are the speech ballons different? Are Serini and Sunny affected by some spell/magic/whatever that transforms their voice :smallconfused:?

I figure it was just that The Giant had not yet committed to the idea that many nonhumanoids have coloured speech balloons. The mind flayer didn't have coloured text either.

[Peelee]

I figure it was just that The Giant had not yet committed to the idea that many nonhumanoids have coloured speech balloons. The mind flayer didn't have coloured text either.

I choose to believe various creatures getting colored speech balloons was part of an art upgrade, which explains everything perfectly.

[Alexandrite]

Considering said ally only appeared on one page before this book, who wouldn't you consider "a stretch"?

Any of the one-off gods from the Godsmoot who have established baseline personalities and motivation for getting involved in the gate conflict.

[Fyraltari]

I have another question myself: If Sunny is the same creature that appeared in comic #32 then why are the speech ballons different? Are Serini and Sunny affected by some spell/magic/whatever that transforms their voice :smallconfused:?
Because that was a long time ago. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarlyInstallmentWeirdness)

Any of the one-off gods from the Godsmoot who have established baseline personalities and motivation for getting involved in the gate conflict.
The gods can't intervene, remember?

[Alexandrite]

The gods can't intervene, remember?

The gods can't intervene directly. There are many more subtle ways they could offer help, some of which Thor and Loki have already shown.

[Peelee]

I, for one, am.notably disinterested in the gods solving things.

[Fyraltari]

The gods can't intervene directly. There are many more subtle ways they could offer help, some of which Thor and Loki have already shown.

Both of whom already had a Cleric entangled in this mess.

[gatemansgc]

Needs to be different and not called a beholder so that Serini doesn't get dragged off by the lawyers.



Yes a VERY literal definition of "Appeared in only one strip." :) Well done GITP! I love that he was waiting 17 years for that phone call from them. :)

probably will only be known as sunny and never mentioned as a beholder!

or maybe there will be a callback to strip 32! they could even mention the number of eyestalks!

[Heksefatter]

I already like Serini's be-uh...eye-thingy.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Oo So that's who the character was!! Excellent twist!! Currently kicking myself that I didn't guess that lol.

[Fyraltari]

probably will only be known as sunny and never mentioned as a beholder!

or maybe there will be a callback to strip 32! they could even mention the number of eyestalks!

Clearly, Sunny is an Observer.

[Peelee]

Clearly, Sunny is an Observer.

But do they report?

[Fyraltari]

But do they report?

Aye, but only to the City Watch.

[El Dorado]

. . .and this is why you pre-cast Shrink Item on a lead cone, wear it as a hat, and bamf away when it unshrinks on top of you. :smallwink:

[TRH]

I choose to believe various creatures getting colored speech balloons was part of an art upgrade, which explains everything perfectly.

It works for me, although I do find it weird that Sabine wasn't affected. It's not a power thing for outsiders, considering Qarr's red balloon, or just a shapeshifting thing either.

[TRH]

I, for one, am.notably disinterested in the gods solving things.

Besides, we didn't see most of them on page. The beholder has a far better case for having physically appeared instead of just possessing a mortal to talk for a bit.

[Squire Doodad]

It works for me, although I do find it weird that Sabine wasn't affected. It's not a power thing for outsiders, considering Qarr's red balloon, or just a shapeshifting thing either.

Considering Xykon has a normal speech bubble despite being undead, so it's probably just continuity. Sunny, on the other hand, has (apparently) had a single appearance, as have beholders as a species, so it's more than reasonable to give them an upgrade

[Maat Mons]

As far as most likely ways the heroes get out of this I'm thinking:

One of them tries to "sunder" the "door" that "closed behind them."
One of them creates a makeshift torch with Roy's sword, some clothing, and a Tindertwig.
An accident with Alchemist's Fire turns one of them into a makeshift torch.
Serini accidentally hits Mimi with sleep-poison.
Blackwing flies above the anitmagic cone with a Scroll and attempts to activate it. The resulting mishap is somehow beneficial.
The lawyers from strip #32 save the day again.

[TRH]

Considering Xykon has a normal speech bubble despite being undead, so it's probably just continuity. Sunny, on the other hand, has (apparently) had a single appearance, as have beholders as a species, so it's more than reasonable to give them an upgrade

Xykon uses the black speech bubble now, though. Sabine's is still uncolored as of BRITF.

[Rogan]

As far as most likely ways the heroes get out of this I'm thinking:

One of them tries to "sunder" the "door" that "closed behind them."
One of them creates a makeshift torch with Roy's sword, some clothing, and a Tindertwig.
An accident with Alchemist's Fire turns one of them into a makeshift torch.
Serini accidentally hits Mimi with sleep-poison.
Blackwing flies above the anitmagic cone with a Scroll and attempts to activate it. The resulting mishap is somehow beneficial.
The lawyers from strip #32 save the day again.


Blackwing is not inside of the dungeon.

[Squire Doodad]

Xykon uses the black speech bubble now, though. Sabine's is still uncolored as of BRITF.

Seems I messed up; Xykon has always used black speech bubbles (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html), but early on in the comic he was the exception.

[Windscion]

Sabine has been undercover, so I wouldn't expect her speech patterns to give away her outsider-ness.

[TRH]

I don't have time to check all her appearances, but my point is that she never deviates from the white balloons. Unlike, say, Malack, who reverts to black bubbles when he's using his vampire abilities. And with Sabine, it's easy enough to tell when she's shifted into a humanoid form and when she hasn't, so to say that we never see different balloons because she's "always undercover" even when she's obviously appearing as a succubus is, well, an unsatisfying explanation.

[Squire Doodad]

I don't have time to check all her appearances, but my point is that she never deviates from the white balloons. Unlike, say, Malack, who reverts to black bubbles when he's using his vampire abilities. And with Sabine, it's easy enough to tell when she's shifted into a humanoid form and when she hasn't, so to say that we never see different balloons because she's "always undercover" even when she's obviously appearing as a succubus is, well, an unsatisfying explanation.

Sabine has also spent years with Nale, she might have a "human accent" or something.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar and Serini both keep giant monsters as friends and pets. They have more in common than I thought. one of the few worthwhile posts in the last 3 pages. +1 for Fish, as usual.

Does Belkar still have lead sheet? Another rare worthwhile post.


Roy and V could really benefit from using less words sometimes. Ya think? :smallconfused:

No, that means it's not Philadelphia, because there are lots of other monsters in the dungeon, and it's ALWAYS Sunny in Philadelphia. False. I have been to Philadelphia.

I choose to believe various creatures getting colored speech balloons was part of an art upgrade, which explains everything perfectly. Yet another rare, worthwhile post, in the last three pages.

For Serini: nice job, granny, unloading your (semi impressive) skills on the Good Guys. Girard must have made quite an impression on you. He had the same (idiotic) attitude. :smallyuk:

[RatElemental]

Did not see that coming... Hilarious, ingenious and awesome all at once.


I always wondered how the story would see an ending for the MITD. Obviously he'll be pals with Ochul.
I thought maybe he'll be his mount at some point. Now I'm wondering if maybe Serini would adopt him?

Given how much Serini knows about the paladins, Xykon and the OotS, I'm starting to wonder if she knows about the MitD's treachery and is banking on being able to use that to overthrow Xykon once he's not within casting distance of the final lynchpin of reality.

[WanderingMist]

Since Belkar doesn’t seem to recognise her that’s one theory gone

And he's supposed to recognize her if she's invisible how? He's not exactly going to be focusing on scent trails in the middle of an ambush.

Roy and V could really benefit from using less words sometimes.

I think it's a big stretch to call the #32 beholder a character, and I'd feel underwhelmed if that did turn out to be the new ally.

Considering that anyone that appeared in 1 panel would be a stretch...

[dancrilis]

I have no idea why people who presumably know about 3.5e keep equating "multidimensional" with "protects against literally anything because PWOT". I've brought this up multiple times and I likely will again, but considering how incorporeality/etherealness works it simply seems that it exists on the Ethereal Plane as well so you can't just cheese it with Ghostform.


Because that was included to answer the question of 'why doesn't Team Evil use magic to solve this' and stone shape is magic which could help solve the issue or expose things - but maybe we will see if Durkon has another stone shape prepared and uses it later on the wall.



Yeah, that's not how it works. It just means that those creatures don't instantly fall over dead just because they're magical creatures.
That is the way it it intended, the way I would read it and likely the way most people would - but it isn't the only way to read it.
It gives a number of things that are shut off for corporeal undead and spell casting isn't one of them - pull that at a table as mentioned and your party/DM will look at your poorly.


Also sorcerers can't use spell research to learn more spells than they already know, there's a line about that in Ye Olde Peelee's SRD somewhere but I don't recall the specific section.

We know that Xykon has custom spells.


I cant say anything either way about feeling underwhelmed, but the strip 32 Beholder is definitely a character. A super minor character, sure, but still a character.
And could be an indication that Serini has been spying on Xykon for a long time - possibly explaining why she knows about the final scene of the Soon's Gate (if she had a mimic present or somesuch), still prefer the divination device let her know but guess we will have to see.

[RatElemental]

That is the way it it intended, the way I would read it and likely the way most people would - but it isn't the only way to read it.
It gives a number of things that are shut off for corporeal undead and spell casting isn't one of them - pull that at a table as mentioned and your party/DM will look at your poorly.

The section on undead isn't the relevant one, anti-magic fields specifically disable casting spells while inside of them regardless of who is doing the casting. This, however, can be overcome by epic spells which answers the question of why Serini can't cheese team evil to death with it.


We know that Xykon has custom spells.

Xykon has access to epic magic, which works outside of normal spellcasting rules. All epic spells are custom, and anyone capable of casting epic spells is capable of researching more, with no limit to how many they can know.

[dancrilis]

The section on undead isn't the relevant one, anti-magic fields specifically disable casting spells while inside of them regardless of who is doing the casting. This, however, can be overcome by epic spells which answers the question of why Serini can't cheese team evil to death with it.

If that were the case they wouldn't need to specify that it still shuts down spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities as that would already be covered.

Now that is just redundency in the text but it is redundency that opens up challenges about what is not specifically mentioned for corporeal undead which an undead player/DM could argue.



Xykon has access to epic magic, which works outside of normal spellcasting rules. All epic spells are custom, and anyone capable of casting epic spells is capable of researching more, with no limit to how many they can know.
The text mentions that Xykon doesn't like using his epic spell slots (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1216.html), I see no reason to assume that Xykon's Moderately-Escapable Forcecage (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) is epic.

That doesn't mean it isn't of course and we might never know, but it seems portrayed that he researched it for his normal spells.

[Ron Miel]

Panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1226.html) the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.


did anyone in the 1226 thread notice this? O_O


Yes.

My guess (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626731-OOTS-1225-The-Discussion-Thread&p=24920144&viewfull=1#post24920144)was not far off, and the post following was a bullseye.

[RatElemental]

If that were the case they wouldn't need to specify that it still shuts down spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities as that would already be covered.

Now that is just redundency in the text but it is redundency that opens up challenges about what is not specifically mentioned for corporeal undead which an undead player/DM could argue.



An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

I think it's safe to say that this is the section that is important here, and that


The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field.

Is just clarification that while inherently magical creatures won't instantly drop dead from being inside of the field, their inherent supernatural abilities are still suppressed.

[dancrilis]

I think it's safe to say that this is the section that is important here, and that



Is just clarification that while inherently magical creatures won't instantly drop dead from being inside of the field, their inherent supernatural abilities are still suppressed.

We agree on the correct reading - my take is just that there is a different reading that could be argued.

Imagine you were in the world of OOTS and saw the text of Antimagic Field and someone pointed out the argument that I made - would you want your first test of the field to be in battle against a spellcasting undead to be against an epic level sorcerer Lich or would you prefer to find some low level undead spellcasting creature and run a quick test first to just rule out the potential reading.

[Misery Esquire]

Belkar, I didn't know you watched Doctor Who. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veV4EdTb344)

[Jasdoif]

Okay, I know this is a story so the Giant isn't actually going to drop a TPK on them but this is another point on my list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM". And here I thought Rich wasn't going to be doing that kind of fight much more, considering none of the fights in Utterly Dwarfed were that BS. The Battle of the Dining Room was mostly bad rolls. A beholder in an enclosed space that prevents the casters from getting out of its range and a rogue with poison strong enough to beat near-epic Fort saves.

Heck, I'd say they'd have better odds against Team Evil! Outside of the IFCC pulling V out of the fight or Team Evil figuring out the dungeon or some other outside force, the Order literally has no way to fight back and Serini has no intentions of listening to them so talking won't do much good either.If a group of players is foolhardy/blasé enough to correctly identify an obvious trap and walk the entire party into it anyway, I think they deserve a recalibration of their sense of character mortality.

[sillymel]

If a group of players is foolhardy/blasé enough to correctly identify an obvious trap and walk the entire party into it anyway, I think they deserve a recalibration of their sense of character mortality.

I wish this forum had an upvote button.
Also, I’m gonna throw my lot in with guessing Sunny is the “ally that had only appeared on one page so far.”

[The MunchKING]

If a group of players is foolhardy/blasé enough to correctly identify an obvious trap and walk the entire party into it anyway, I think they deserve a recalibration of their sense of character mortality.

I dunno. "Obvious trap, so lets bring all available firepower on it" sounds wiser than "Obvious trap, lets let the rogue and the hostage take it on alone. Maybe throw in the squishiest gal on our team too".

[Robots]

Hm. New update.

I saw this update a while ago, and a bit of the euphoria from the reveal has run out.

But not all of it.

And with that, I must say: OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!

Really wondering how Serini met Sunny.

Also, also. 50 imaginary dollars says that Elan goes "oh no! Roy is poisoned!" and attempts to cure it, but it doesn't work because Roy's been hit with a sleeping dart instead of a poison dart.

[Dragonus45]

That is… genuinely impressive that she managed to tame or socialize a thing like a beholder. I wonder how she managed it.

[MartianInvader]

So it's vanishingly unlikely this will matter, but what happens if Roy throws his sword at Serini while the anti-magic ray is active? It exits the ray before hitting her, so does it still get its +5 damage? What about +5 to hit? And what if he tries to recall it while he's in the ray but the sword isn't?

[The MunchKING]

So it's vanishingly unlikely this will matter, but what happens if Roy throws his sword at Serini while the anti-magic ray is active? It exits the ray before hitting her, so does it still get its +5 damage? What about +5 to hit? And what if he tries to recall it while he's in the ray but the sword isn't?

She's invisible, best he could do is target her hex and hope to get lucky.

[Jasdoif]

Okay, I know this is a story so the Giant isn't actually going to drop a TPK on them but this is another point on my list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM". And here I thought Rich wasn't going to be doing that kind of fight much more, considering none of the fights in Utterly Dwarfed were that BS. The Battle of the Dining Room was mostly bad rolls. A beholder in an enclosed space that prevents the casters from getting out of its range and a rogue with poison strong enough to beat near-epic Fort saves.

Heck, I'd say they'd have better odds against Team Evil! Outside of the IFCC pulling V out of the fight or Team Evil figuring out the dungeon or some other outside force, the Order literally has no way to fight back and Serini has no intentions of listening to them so talking won't do much good either.If a group of players is foolhardy/blasé enough to correctly identify an obvious trap and walk the entire party into it anyway, I think they deserve a recalibration of their sense of character mortality.I dunno. "Obvious trap, so lets bring all available firepower on it" sounds wiser than "Obvious trap, lets let the rogue and the hostage take it on alone. Maybe throw in the squishiest gal on our team too".Gathering the entire party together so they're all trivial to hit with the same areas-of-effect, knowing there's a single chokepoint in or out, does not seem wisdom-inspired. Well, I guess unless the players are tired of their characters or the campaign, in which case the TPK may be precisely what they're after....Alternatively, if the players feel they're strong enough to take the ambush on its own terms, they deserve the chance to face the ambush on its own terms like they wanted, with all the risk that entails.

It's certainly a rather messy point of the interaction between the players and the DM, and one I would certainly find uncomfortable with a low-to-mid-level party; but a high-level party should have the means to mitigate or dismantle the ambush itself instead of just walking straight into it and giving a prepared threat a surprise round. (Off the top of my head, imagine if Durkon had tried stone shape to create additional exit points; and either created additional exit points or discovered it wouldn't work before everyone was in danger and Durkon was down an action) If, instead, the players deliberately choose to put the idea of their characters' invulnerability to the test, it's proper for the DM to test the idea of the character's invulnerability.

The setup that'd bring this specific maybe-split-the-party scenario into a game is going to be unusual/interesting, of course; but if the players have in fact arrived at a dungeon complex that's proven capable of stalling the major villain that's several levels higher than they are (and came of their own volition, no less), they can't reasonably be surprised to find encounters that are significantly more threatening than their usual fare.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Behold! Not a great start for the Order, but they still have most of their members on their feet at least. I hope we get more strips with Sunny, they seem like a fun character.

[Ralanr]

I never thought I'd find a beholder adorable.

[danielxcutter]

Gathering the entire party together so they're all trivial to hit with the same areas-of-effect, knowing there's a single chokepoint in or out, does not seem wisdom-inspired. Well, I guess unless the players are tired of their characters or the campaign, in which case the TPK may be precisely what they're after....Alternatively, if the players feel they're strong enough to take the ambush on its own terms, they deserve the chance to face the ambush on its own terms like they wanted, with all the risk that entails.

It's certainly a rather messy point of the interaction between the players and the DM, and one I would certainly find uncomfortable with a low-to-mid-level party; but a high-level party should have the means to mitigate or dismantle the ambush itself instead of just walking straight into it and giving a prepared threat a surprise round. (Off the top of my head, imagine if Durkon had tried stone shape to create additional exit points; and either created additional exit points or discovered it wouldn't work before everyone was in danger and Durkon was down an action) If, instead, the players deliberately choose to put the idea of their characters' invulnerability to the test, it's proper for the DM to test the idea of the character's invulnerability.

The setup that'd bring this specific maybe-split-the-party scenario into a game is going to be unusual/interesting, of course; but if the players have in fact arrived at a dungeon complex that's proven capable of stalling the major villain that's several levels higher than they are (and came of their own volition, no less), they can't reasonably be surprised to find encounters that are significantly more threatening than their usual fare.

It’s easy to come up with better solutions with the benefit of hindsight, isn’t it?

And a beholder encounter like this isn’t much less BS against a high-level party than a mid-level one, considering how reliant PCs are on magic.

Plus, you know, there’s also the factor of previous experience that not instantly following up the rest of the party will screw them over completely. Look at DStP. Look at Durkon and Belkar. Look at the Crystal Golem fight. Splitting up has practically been a guaranteed disaster for them.

Also, taking time to prepare isn’t always a good thing. In our game, we sent the wererat Swordsage in first, but she fell through the ceiling and alerted the entire fortress, and their mage proceeded to kill the dragon shaman, the bard, and both animal companions. Experienced DMs know how to screw over players for preparing as well as for not preparing.

[MartianInvader]

She's invisible, best he could do is target her hex and hope to get lucky.

Sure, that's part of why it's unlikely to matter. Assume the invisibility goes away somehow. I'm more interested in the mechanics of throwing magic items out of an anti-magic field.

[TheNecrocomicon]

That is… genuinely impressive that she managed to tame or socialize a thing like a beholder. I wonder how she managed it.

If she's capable of successfully befriending an entire community of trolls to the point that they happily save her from extensive mortal injuries, a beholder is probably no sweat.


Behold! Not a great start for the Order, but they still have most of their members on their feet at least.

Let's not forget that Serini has already spelled out exactly what her plans are for the Order: to knock them out, induce as total an amnesia as she can regarding her dungeon, then dump them somewhere far away and hope they don't figure out the pieces and come back. It's practically a dramatic inevitability that things will not turn out that way -- contrast her complete taking of the paladins by surprise, so I cannot see how the last battle at her hands repeats, especially with a diverse party in the Order, full of capabilities that Serini has probably not anticipated in her confident assumptions of superiority (read: arrogance).

More likely, in my mind, is that this dust-up ends up a draw or some such, since the Order aren't going to willingly kill the only Scribbler they can meet in person as soon as they become aware who she is, nor is Serini dramatically likely to pull a total party wipe just like Lurkon did in the immediately preceding book. This might also be an opportunity for the Order to show character development in how they can now hold their own as a group even with Roy temporarily down and out (unconscious and not dead, thankfully).

Or maybe this is even just the lead-up to the IFCC busting out their own vaguely-alluded-to plan, upending the whole situation and blindsiding absolutely everyone, as seems likely to be the effect whenever it drops. Maybe this is the prelude to the greater threat forcing everyone to drop their mutual enmities for the greater good of the world. Guess we'll just have to wait and find out, although strips getting posted only a few days apart gives me hope that we won't have to wait all that long to make progress.

[Crimsonmantle]

So the really important question is... they're kid's drawings right, and Sunny is the kid? How does s/he hold the crayon? S/he has no hands. Wrap an eyestalk around it?

[Dire_Flumph]

So the really important question is... they're kid's drawings right, and Sunny is the kid? How does s/he hold the crayon? S/he has no hands. Wrap an eyestalk around it?

One of the eyestalks has the Telekinesis ability. It's how O-chul and Lien were lifted at the end of book 6.

[Jasdoif]

It’s easy to come up with better solutions with the benefit of hindsight, isn’t it?Certainly (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2300/fc02223.htm). The first time a party gets crushed from blithely running into a trap they know is there, maybe the players will have the experience to consider their options more seriously the next time.


And a beholder encounter like this isn’t much less BS against a high-level party than a mid-level one, considering how reliant PCs are on magic.Beholders are problematic in multiple ways, as some of D&D's developers have talked about (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a).


Plus, you know, there’s also the factor of previous experience that not instantly following up the rest of the party will screw them over completely. Look at DStP. Look at Durkon and Belkar. Look at the Crystal Golem fight. Splitting up has practically been a guaranteed disaster for them.Wait. So when you said you have a list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM"...are you looking at it from the top-down and the distortions that happen from trying to fit a long non-interactive narrative into an interactive one; or from the bottom-up and noting each isolated scene in OotS that's resolved in the opposite way of what should ideally happen in an actual game?

I've been treating it as the latter (and protesting here specifically, because players should expect bad things to happen if they do things they know to be a bad idea; that's kind of why they're bad ideas). If it's the former, I can recommend DM of the Rings (https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612) as satire on the subject.

[facw]

...
I call DM shenanigans.

Wayy back in the first book a ten-eyed creature was ruled off-limits because it wasn't SRD. For Rich to introduce one now is unexpected, yes, but it's unfairly unexpected because it's a creature the DM previously ruled out of bounds.

I suppose there really isn't any reason he can't use a be- or whatever homebrew suspiciously looks like a 3.5E beholder. (a holderbe? A redloheb? ) and the original strip was simply a parody joke. Even so, I don't like this development. As a rule, the strips are funny because Rich finds a way to surprise and delight us while remaining in the confines of the rules he's established for what we are to expect. For him to pull something out of left field like this makes it hard for me to continue suspending disbelief. It makes it too obvious that the author CAN pull anything out if he wants to, and that makes it harder to believe there are any stakes to this outcome.

Be that as it may, I think I'm going to like Serini. She seems pretty good at befriending monsters and the relationship she has with 'Sunny' does suggest a fair amount of love there.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


FWIW, the Winter 2018 A Monster For Every Season has beholder minis, though Rich calls them Eye Tyrants.

[Bilbo Baggins]

That is… genuinely impressive that she managed to tame or socialize a thing like a beholder. I wonder how she managed it.

I think Serini would say something along the lines of, "the word you're looking for is befriend." She certainly has a way with creatures that most would consider monstrous or uncivilized. I'd bet that the way she knows so much about the gates, the Order, and other goings-on around the world isn't through magical means but rather just talking to the right people(/creatures/monsters). Her own version of the Baker Street Irregulars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Street_Irregulars).

[danielxcutter]

Certainly (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2300/fc02223.htm). The first time a party gets crushed from blithely running into a trap they know is there, maybe the players will have the experience to consider their options more seriously the next time.

Beholders are problematic in multiple ways, as some of D&D's developers have talked about (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a).

I do like the beholder feats related to that in Lords of Madness. Focused Antimagic means the entire party isn't stuck shooting non-magical masterwork arrows at the beholder while actually letting the beholder use all of its abilities at once. I still don't like this fight though, because there's not much of an option for the Order besides "get picked off one-by-one" and "try to use Diplomacy", the latter of which seems unlikely considering how Serini seems to feel.


Wait. So when you said you have a list of "why OotS shouldn't be used as a guideline for being a DM"...are you looking at it from the top-down and the distortions that happen from trying to fit a long non-interactive narrative into an interactive one; or from the bottom-up and noting each isolated scene in OotS that's resolved in the opposite way of what should ideally happen in an actual game?

I've been treating it as the latter (and protesting here specifically, because players should expect bad things to happen if they do things they know to be a bad idea; that's kind of why they're bad ideas). If it's the former, I can recommend DM of the Rings (https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612) as satire on the subject.

I mean to an extent, yeah, but there's a lot of stuff that works in a story but would easily result in calls of BS in an actual game.

The Pit Fiend fight is both a bit out of left field and more importantly, seriously overleveled for the combatants present at that point. The casters barely had 7ths, and the paladins were barely double-digit levels.

Ceila screwed over Haley by somehow being naive enough to completely miss all the problems with Greysky City, and later on the DM effectively dropped the entire guild on her and Belkar with Crystal having a build specifically for countering Haley and Bozzok being at least four levels higher.

Getting faced with the ABD might have been a foreseeable consequence for V, but the sequence after that was railroading fairly hard into taking the IFCC's deal. And I have no idea how "surprise, I can pull your character out of the game any time I want up to three times so suck it up assclown" would be considered a positive thing to do.

And then there's the Vector Legion fight. A literal army, and three quasi-PCs each strong if not stronger than any member of the Order at near-full power, when the entire party minus Haley and V was half-dead and drained.

They make for a great story, don't get me wrong. I just don't think such situations would be that great DMing in a real game.

[Fyraltari]

That is… genuinely impressive that she managed to tame or socialize a thing like a beholder. I wonder how she managed it.

I'l going to guess that the first step was looking at the orphaned child and not thinking of them as a thing to be tamed.

Bloody hell...

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, the only reason I'm complaining about Sunny is because of the setup of this "encounter". I can absolutely buy that Serini managed to raise Sunny to not be like the paranoid, egoistical insane floating orbs of doom Lords of Madness describes them as.

Honestly, I can kinda buy that some supernatural creatures really are different from humans, but I don't think that should be the end-all of things. There's even a short adventure module that does have a village for "monstrous creatures" who don't fit with other beings of their species that do embody the stereotypes associated with them, and the village doctor's a beholder.

In short: I don't like that Serini and Sunny are capable of picking off the Order at their leisure when there wasn't that much of a choice for the Order to do otherwise, but I'm quite happy that Serini raised Sunny well.

[Fyraltari]

In short: I don't like that Serini and Sunny are capable of picking off the Order at their leisure when there wasn't that much of a choice for the Order to do otherwise, but I'm quite happy that Serini raised Sunny well.

This is so weird to me. This is not a game, there are no risk of this encounter not going the way The Giant wants it to. There are no players guaranteed to have overwhelming odds to win every fight. An author, unlike a game master has no obligation to handicap their villains, in fact given the habit of readerships to root for the underdog and the needs for narrative tension, an author has more reasons to handicap their heroes.

This isn't even a case where an antagonist wins simply by author fiat rather than it arising organically from the story: the Order is engaging a specialist of fighting dirty on her home turf on her own terms, of course she is going to stack the deck in her favour!

[danielxcutter]

This is so weird to me. This is not a game, there are no risk of this encounter not going the way The Giant wants it to. There are no players guaranteed to have overwhelming odds to win every fight. An author, unlike a game master has no obligation to handicap their villains, in fact given the habit of readerships to root for the underdog and the needs for narrative tension, an author has more reasons to handicap their heroes.

This isn't even a case where an antagonist wins simply by author fiat rather than it arising organically from the story: the Order is engaging a specialist of fighting dirty on her home turf on her own terms, of course she is going to stack the deck in her favour!

Intellectually, I know that there's no real problem, but I have trouble telling my gamer side to shut the hell up when it comes to things like these. And you can't really say that some of these situations wouldn't really work well in an IRL game of D&D.

That being said, I actually agree with you that this would still be much less BS than some of the other fights! Having your weaknesses aggressively exploited would be frustrating to fight in the extreme, but Serini does seem to have a plausible way of learning them. Some DMs apparently just take the lazy route and have half the random encounters in the game designed to screw over a PC, but this isn't one of those at all.

[TooSoon]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1226.html) the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Also interesting Serini has access to anti-magic on demand and still thinks Xykon is unbeatable - which might say a lot about how out of depth The Order are.

Yeh it really does underscore how much Xykon is being undersold as level "21+" on the class stats thread. The guy is obviously much higher than that.

[Mariele]

I don't think this is going to be the one-panel ally, actually. But feel free to bet against me.

A beholder, a mimic, and trolls... Serini sure knows how to break barriers and make friends! :) I like her and am looking forward to more screen time with her. Can't believe this update was so fast, feeling downright spoiled lol.

[danielxcutter]

Yeh it really does underscore how much Xykon is being undersold as level "21+" on the class stats thread. The guy is obviously much higher than that.

21+ is the bare minimum we can provide concrete proof for, anything higher is conjecture no matter how likely it is.

I do agree that Xykon's probably like in the high 20s or so, there just isn't a way to prove it beyond doubt. Not beyond reasonable doubt, beyond doubt period.

Edit:

That being said, Xykon's monstrously powerful and Serini's poison or sneak attack won't do anything against him. Not to mention Sunny can't zap him with eye rays while the AMF cone's up.

[greenfunkman]

Also in Panel 1 (strip 1226), under the drawings, the big circular depression in the beanbag is likely the invisible beholder having a rest.

Edit: I suppose the darts in the wall and the childlike drawings are how Sunny practices their telekinesis. They don't look very good at either yet! I wonder if lack of experience will cause Sunny to make an error?

[danielxcutter]

Also in Panel 1 (strip 1226), under the drawings, the big circular depression in the beanbag is likely the invisible beholder having a rest.

Edit: I suppose the darts in the wall and the childlike drawings are how Sunny practices their telekinesis. They don't look very good at either yet! I wonder if lack of experience will cause Sunny to make an error?

Well, mechanically it'd probably just be Sunny blowing an attack roll(beholders actually have pretty crappy attack bonuses; it's just that rays are easy to hit things with), but I can see how the in-universe reason might be that.

[Fyraltari]

Seriously, though, how was Sunny invisible and why aren't they now when Serini still is?

[Riftwolf]

Seriously, though, how was Sunny invisible and why aren't they now when Serini still is?

Does the antimagic eye affect the beholders buffs? Could be Serini had greater invisibility on both of them but the AMF cone backfired onto Sunny.

[silphael]

Wait, is O-Chul officially Pre-epic ? I always thought those 2 were at least a few levels lower than the OotS, meaning a far lower fortitude spell.
And even with an epic poison, would the DC still be high enough to knock out a pre epic fighter ?

Also, Haley took the time to take 20, shouldn't she have seen Mimi ?

[danielxcutter]

Seriously, though, how was Sunny invisible and why aren't they now when Serini still is?

Maybe Serini has Greater Invisibility and Sunny only has normal Invisibility, which wears off when attacking or casting a spell on someone offensively. I'd say "using an AMF cone on someone so your adoptive mom can turn them into Swiss cheese with her poisoned darts" is close enough.


Wait, is O-Chul officially Pre-epic ? I always thought those 2 were at least a few levels lower than the OotS, meaning a far lower fortitude spell.
And even with an epic poison, would the DC still be high enough to knock out a pre epic fighter ?

Also, Haley took the time to take 20, shouldn't she have seen Mimi ?

O-Chul's a bit lower-level than Roy, but has a Con score "in the mid-twenties" or something. And remember, Roy got hit with two darts.

As for the Spot/Search thing, Mimi was hiding off to the side while Haley was inspecting the hole, and I don't think you can take 20 with those anyways.

[silphael]

You totally can take 20 on spot/search checks though.

But yeah, they might now have had time to use books, so Roy might be still under 20 (when under AMF)

[TRH]

She was specifically looking for traps, though, not for anything out of place. And even if she had been searching more broadly, the mimic was probably imitating a protrusion in the wall and would likely have been overlooked anyways.

[Kardwill]

Reviewing it the beholder was foreshadowed.

Panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1226.html) the pictures have a beholder beside a small person.

Also interesting Serini has access to anti-magic on demand and still thinks Xykon is unbeatable - which might say a lot about how out of depth The Order are.

At the time, I thought those papers pined to the wall were magic diagrams of some sort, but they are child drawings? Okay, that's adorable ^^

[bunsen_h]

Intellectually, I know that there's no real problem, but I have trouble telling my gamer side to shut the hell up when it comes to things like these. And you can't really say that some of these situations wouldn't really work well in an IRL game of D&D.

I suspect that that aspect will work better when you're reading it as a flowing story, rather than a page per week with serious analysis of each.


At the time, I thought those papers pined to the wall were magic diagrams of some sort, but they are child drawings? Okay, that's adorable ^^

Rich's Patreon backers (https://www.patreon.com/oots) get access to high-resolution versions of the pages, which I gather makes those pictures on the wall a lot more legible.