Tactical uses of a beholder

[pendell]

Assuming Sunny and Serini eventually ally with the order after hijinx ensue, how could they best be used against Xykon and Redcloak? I should think an anti-magic field would be valuable. It would block all xykon's non-epic casting , and while it won't shut down the artifact, it should shut him down otherwise.

So it's a tactical question: What strategy would be best against Team Evil when Team OOTS has an epic rogue and a Beholder amongst their assets?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ionathus]

My understanding of 3.5e is shaky at best, but this feels like a HUGE asset if they can get Serini & Sunny on their side. Shutting down RC & Big X's abilities to cast all but a few spells would be an absolute game-changer. Since they're both primary spellcasters, an anti-magic field is possibly the single best way to level the playing field.

It's almost too good. I suspect they won't actually get to use Sunny for the final fight.

[Riftwolf]

As someone pointed out in the main discussion thread, AMF doesn't shut down epic magic automatically (it gets a save). Stopping Xykon from using Energy Drain or Meteor Swarm might not be such a hot idea if it means he has to break out the Big Guns.

[Squire Doodad]

I assume that Sunny either has a modified AMF as a result of being a "child" that makes it just require a high save (that all of the Order just failed), or Xykon has made a charm that lessens the effects of it. Or maybe Sunny only has 3 uses a day, etc. Maybe there's a specialized template Rich made for Sunny.
I'd lean on the former since it feels less hamfisted, though Serini could also refuse to let Sunny fight or there could be any number of reasons why it doesn't get used liberally.

Or perhaps in Ootsverse, AMF makes it so spells above 6th level can still be cast after beating a DC (which means almost all of the Order's magic is gone), and that just means it takes away a lot but not all of the tricks up their sleeve, etc.

[woweedd]

Xykon is an epic mage. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a way to get around one of his main weaknesses without the field shutting it down. Plus, like, even without his spells, Xykon's no pushover. He still has, as it was once put, "enough strength to crush your windpipe with my bare phangles". Also, Disjunction exists. They might be a gamechanger...Or it could just get to waste one of his non-existent spell slots.

[TRH]

I'm going to stick to my current theory that the IFCC manifest on the prime material plane to smash the final Gate, and then things will get really crazy. So if I'm right, the final battle won't be around here anyways, and the cards just won't line up for Serini and the beholder to team up with the party against Xykon anyways.

[Riftwolf]

I assume that Sunny either has a modified AMF as a result of being a "child"

I'm not seeing Sunny as a child, or even having an especially childish personality. He's just being friendly and calls his mum mum.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not seeing Sunny as a child, or even having an especially childish personality. He's just being friendly and calls his mum mum.

Adults usually know how to call their parents with regards to context. Also the drawings on the wall of Serini's lair.

Also I am not sure of the size of an adult beholder but "halfling-tall" seems pretty short.

[TooSoon]

V is almost certainly at the level where they could have disjunction, based on experience gathered since last levelling up, so there's a (low) chance V could just disjoin the field. Xykon similarly has a chance to Epic Dispel it (if we grant him ordinary rules, and not a literal reading of the spell in the textbook). Xykon's Epic Mage Armour would also continue to function. Those are all the relevant Epic Spells we know of Xykon having... that said, I'm not sure what happens if you dispel/disjoin an AMF cast by a beholder... I mean, can't they just reopen their eye and cast it again? It has unlimited uses right?

[hamishspence]

Adults usually know how to call their parents with regards to context. Also the drawings on the wall of Serini's lair.

Also I am not sure of the size of an adult beholder but "halfling-tall" seems pretty short.

Adult Beholders are Large. I think it's plausible that Sunny is medium.

[RatElemental]

V is almost certainly at the level where they could have disjunction, based on experience gathered since last levelling up, so there's a (low) chance V could just disjoin the field. Xykon similarly has a chance to Epic Dispel it (if we grant him ordinary rules, and not a literal reading of the spell in the textbook). Xykon's Epic Mage Armour would also continue to function. Those are all the relevant Epic Spells we know of Xykon having... that said, I'm not sure what happens if you dispel/disjoin an AMF cast by a beholder... I mean, can't they just reopen their eye and cast it again? It has unlimited uses right?

Xykon strikes me as the sort to have an epic evocation just for the hell of it, even if he doesn't like to use it often with how limited epic slots are. If all he can do is cast epic spells, though...

[Squire Doodad]

Xykon is an epic mage. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a way to get around one of his main weaknesses without the field shutting it down. Plus, like, even without his spells, Xykon's no pushover. He still has, as it was once put, "enough strength to crush your windpipe with my bare phangles". Also, Disjunction exists. They might be a gamechanger...Or it could just get to waste one of his non-existent spell slots.

At the very least, they'll be "screw with RC's action economy", and if Xykon goes down they'd help to make sure Redcloak is actually down and not "can freely cast uberspellmojo and spite the party"

[TooSoon]

Xykon strikes me as the sort to have an epic evocation just for the hell of it, even if he doesn't like to use it often with how limited epic slots are. If all he can do is cast epic spells, though...

No proof of it yet though.

Does anyone know what happens when you disjoin or superb dispel an AMF from a beholder? I assume they can just project it all over again, which seems kinda cheap.

[Coat]

Who wants to bet that Xykon doesn't have an Epic version of Power Word Blind?
Seems like the kind of thing he'd find funny. Probably with an area effect.


Just generally, splitting up so the cone can't hit everyone, and then Power Word Blind is probably the right answer.

Or having non-magical muscle around with pointy things.


Does Power Word Blind shut down a beholder's AM eye according to the rules? I have no idea?
Is that obviously what it should do? Yes.

[Emanick]

No proof of it yet though.

Does anyone know what happens when you disjoin or superb dispel an AMF from a beholder? I assume they can just project it all over again, which seems kinda cheap.

It does seem sort of unfair, given that we're talking about 9th level and epic spell slots, respectively, but since a beholder effectively has Antimagic Field as an At-Will spell-like-ability, it makes sense mechanically.

I have no idea whether Power Word Blind would disable the eye, given that the eye probably casts an AMF by projecting energy and blindness is about more about being unable to process light. Strictly speaking, I don't think the rules would let you do that, although as a DM I'd probably allow it as a way to reward creativity. I could see Rich letting it work, although I wouldn't make any assumptions on that front.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not seeing Sunny as a child, or even having an especially childish personality. He's just being friendly and calls his mum mum. That's how the feel came across to me as well.

Who wants to bet that Xykon doesn't have an Epic version of Power Word Blind? {snip} Does Power Word Blind shut down a beholder's AM eye according to the rules? I have no idea?
Is that obviously what it should do? Yes. Great question, but I don't know 3.5 well enough to make a suggested ruling.

[danielxcutter]

Adult beholders are apparently about 8 feet across, by average(though some do grow bigger). Sunny seems a lot smaller than that.

Also re: eyes here's some potentially relevant lore from Lords of Madness, which has a separate chapter for beholders.


The interior of a beholder’s eye is a tangled mess of transparent, nearly invisible strands of nervous tissue called evocularies (3). Each evoculary feeds directly into one of the eye’s three retinas and anchors an iris sheath, a lens, or both. The evocularies not only aid in the movement of the various components, but also transmit light and magic energy from the retinas to the lenses and vice versa. Each eye has a slightly different configuration of evocularies. In one eye, they might form a complex spiral. In another, they might form tightly wound corkscrew patterns. In a third, they might be taut and straight. The nature of an eye’s evoculary configuration is believed to be what focuses the raw magic energy the creature generates deep in its brain to create its signature eye ray effects.

The three retinas of each eye coil into a highly complex, braidlike structure as they wind down the stalk or up behind the central eye to converge deep inside the creature’s body and brain. The raw magic energy that powers a beholder’s eye rays is transmitted along this braid from the dweomerlobes of its brain.


A beholder’s intense magical power and energy are gathered and directed in the internal organs that comprise its nervous
system and brain. Some theorize that beholders gather magical energy from the bodies of spellcasting creatures they’ve eaten, while others believe that they simply absorb ambient magic from the environment.

In fact, a beholder’s vast store of magical power is directly connected to its eyes. Just as the creature’s braided optic nerves transmit light to the brain to allow sight, so do the eyes transmit
magic to the brain for storage and augmentation. A beholder can absorb magical energy by looking at spell effects in action, by observing magic creatures like constructs or spellcasters, by gazing upon ancient relics and minor magic baubles, and by simply reading or studying spellbooks. It can even absorb magic from watching its own eye rays, recycling the power back into its brain as it uses them.

The amount of magical energy the eyes absorb is miniscule; a beholder could study the same magic missile scroll nonstop for months before the study would render the scroll useless. The more powerful and permanent the magic is, the longer it takes to absorb. Further, beholders build up tolerances to magic of the same variety. A beholder would gain much less magical energy from studying a single pair of winged boots over the course of a week than it would from studying an entire library full of arcane tomes. A beholder that goes without a steady supply of new magic to study grows cantankerous
and paranoid. More than any sense of greed, this forces the creature to hoard magic items as treasure or to seek out ruins, dungeons, and other repositories of powerful magic.

A beholder’s brain is quite large. Much of it consists of two lobes that descend down to the left and right like horns. These are known as dweomerlobes, and it is here that magical energy is stored and amplified.

I think the parts of the eyes used for producing magic effects are different from the parts that let the beholder see. Of course [1] there's no mechanics-based ruling, b) Rich isn't exactly a stickler for the rules anyways, and III. considering that LoM describes most beholders as paranoid, xenophobic, and insane there's absolutely guarantee that Sunny shares any similarity to "canonical" D&D beholders besides appearance and abilities.

[pendell]

Adult beholders are apparently about 8 feet across, by average(though some do grow bigger). Sunny seems a lot smaller than that.

Also re: eyes here's some potentially relevant lore from Lords of Madness, which has a separate chapter for beholders.





I think the parts of the eyes used for producing magic effects are different from the parts that let the beholder see. Of course [1] there's no mechanics-based ruling, b) Rich isn't exactly a stickler for the rules anyways, and III. considering that LoM describes most beholders as paranoid, xenophobic, and insane there's absolutely guarantee that Sunny shares any similarity to "canonical" D&D beholders besides appearance and abilities.

Excuse me, an entire species that is paranoid, xenophobic, and insane? That's some sloppy worldbuilding. Xenophobic I can see; xenophobia was the norm before the 20th century pretty much everywhere, isolation meant the bulk of humanity grew up in their own little villages and was suspicious of everyone from outside, but those others are mental health issues, aberrations in all times and places. I can imagine AN eye tyrant suffering from these afflictions, but the entire species in desperate need of a psychiatrist...?

Actually, that explains it. Serini got Sunny a prescription, and once on their Serotonin Sunny's a happy, well-adjusted being eager to make friends :smallamused:

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Silly Name]

Excuse me, an entire species that is paranoid, xenophobic, and insane? That's some sloppy worldbuilding. Xenophobic I can see; xenophobia was the norm before the 20th century pretty much everywhere, isolation meant the bulk of humanity grew up in their own little villages and was suspicious of everyone from outside, but those others are mental health issues, aberrations in all times and places. I can imagine AN eye tyrant suffering from these afflictions, but the entire species in desperate need of a psychiatrist...?

Well, beholders are aberrations... :smalltongue:

[Last_Riot]

As someone pointed out in the main discussion thread, AMF doesn't shut down epic magic automatically (it gets a save). Stopping Xykon from using Energy Drain or Meteor Swarm might not be such a hot idea if it means he has to break out the Big Guns.

If the goal is to kill Xykon, it should be assumed that he'd pull out the big guns before dying.

And other than using metamagic for normal spells, specific epic spells are quite limited, I believe, and I don't think Xykon has a whole bunch, and one of those is Superb Dispelling.


Xykon is an epic mage. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a way to get around one of his main weaknesses without the field shutting it down. Plus, like, even without his spells, Xykon's no pushover. He still has, as it was once put, "enough strength to crush your windpipe with my bare phangles". Also, Disjunction exists. They might be a gamechanger...Or it could just get to waste one of his non-existent spell slots.

What means, by RAW, counters antimagic zone? From within, that is?

Xykon's confident, but he got destroyed and nearly destroyed on more than one occasion. On quite a few, if we also go back since before he was a Lich. He's lucky is what he is.

A sorcerer in an antimagic zone is pathetic, Lich template or not. If there's some obscure epic or third party stuff that grants counters to antimagic zone, I'm not aware of them.

[danielxcutter]

Excuse me, an entire species that is paranoid, xenophobic, and insane? That's some sloppy worldbuilding. Xenophobic I can see; xenophobia was the norm before the 20th century pretty much everywhere, isolation meant the bulk of humanity grew up in their own little villages and was suspicious of everyone from outside, but those others are mental health issues, aberrations in all times and places. I can imagine AN eye tyrant suffering from these afflictions, but the entire species in desperate need of a psychiatrist...?

Actually, that explains it. Serini got Sunny a prescription, and once on their Serotonin Sunny's a happy, well-adjusted being eager to make friends :smallamused:

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

I don’t think it’s lazy considering the detail it goes into. Problematic maybe, but if played close enough to the fluff they’re not the arbitrary and yes lazy “they do [things that some humans] and [aren’t human] so [it’s okay to kill them]” model that Rich despises with a passion, either.

I do prefer the “except for X, basically human and should be treated on their own merits” model, of course, but compared to the former model… yeah.

[hroþila]

So a magic-deprived beholder becomes paranoid, and also it was paranoid all along.

[Fyraltari]

Excuse me, an entire species that is paranoid, xenophobic, and insane? That's some sloppy worldbuilding.

If only somebody were to make a webcomic with a major theme of "inherently evil races are a bad idea."

:smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

Well, beholders are aberrations... :smalltongue:

While treating beholders any different from more “human” species because they float and have eleven eyes is easily subject to the criticism often levied towards orcs and goblins, I’d personally say that actually putting in the effort to show how different such creatures are from humans is still less problematic than lazily pointing at vague reasons while only making the actual differences cosmetic at most.


If the goal is to kill Xykon, it should be assumed that he'd pull out the big guns before dying.

And other than using metamagic for normal spells, specific epic spells are quite limited, I believe, and I don't think Xykon has a whole bunch, and one of those is Superb Dispelling.

First correction, 10th+ level slots aren’t the same as epic spells. Second, just because Xykon hasn’t used an epic blasting spell yet doesn’t necessarily mean he doesn’t know one, due to how epic spellcasting works. It does seem plausible for him to research something that makes a big boom, just in case he needs serious damage.


What means, by RAW, counters antimagic zone? From within, that is?

Xykon's confident, but he got destroyed and nearly destroyed on more than one occasion. On quite a few, if we also go back since before he was a Lich. He's lucky is what he is.

A sorcerer in an antimagic zone is pathetic, Lich template or not. If there's some obscure epic or third party stuff that grants counters to antimagic zone, I'm not aware of them.

There’s actually a 9th level spell called Invoke Magic from Lords of Madness that specifically lets you use magic in a dead magic zone or AMF for a turn, but that’s about it besides the serious cheese. Or wearing a lead cone shrunk with magic as a hat, but I think that counts as cheese too.

Also destroying his body once won’t mean a whole lot, because of his phylactery. And Xykon’s not as much of a fool as he seems at face value. He won’t fall for that more than once, if at all.


So a magic-deprived beholder becomes paranoid, and also it was paranoid all along.

I do think the point is that it becomes even more paranoid, but yeah I don’t like the implications that aberrations are literally hardwired to be evil that much either.

[Last_Riot]

First correction, 10th+ level slots aren’t the same as epic spells. Second, just because Xykon hasn’t used an epic blasting spell yet doesn’t necessarily mean he doesn’t know one, due to how epic spellcasting works. It does seem plausible for him to research something that makes a big boom, just in case he needs serious damage.



There’s actually a 9th level spell called Invoke Magic from Lords of Madness that specifically lets you use magic in a dead magic zone or AMF for a turn, but that’s about it besides the serious cheese. Or wearing a lead cone shrunk with magic as a hat, but I think that counts as cheese too.

Also destroying his body once won’t mean a whole lot, because of his phylactery. And Xykon’s not as much of a fool as he seems at face value. He won’t fall for that more than once, if at all.



I do think the point is that it becomes even more paranoid, but yeah I don’t like the implications that aberrations are literally hardwired to be evil that much either.

I've not used the epic materials a lot, and what I did use was about only in the few years following its publication, so forever ago. Any example of what kind of blasting power he could pull off? Would it suffice to kill the beholder?

Lord sof Madness sounds like a cheesy splatbook. :P

Well, his phylactery is right there next to him... so not really a problem. And while you might say "ah, but it's supposed to be in his fortress!", I'd retort "yea, well last they knew, Redcloak had it around his neck, and the good guys were never told about the phylactery moving to the astral fortress, Durking was barely made aware of the fortress at all". Though despite all this, I'd concede it'd still be a fair point that messing this up would increase his alterness to the dangers of AMF in the future. But, despite this concession, I'd also still add that there's not much one can do to defend oneself against AMF, and that even with knowledge of this threat, one failed use of it would not prevent a second and successful attempt at a later time.

[RatElemental]

If the goal is to kill Xykon, it should be assumed that he'd pull out the big guns before dying.

And other than using metamagic for normal spells, specific epic spells are quite limited, I believe, and I don't think Xykon has a whole bunch, and one of those is Superb Dispelling.

Epic spell slots and spell slots above 9th level are actually two different things. Spell slots above 9th are only good for casting metamagicked up spells that go above 9th, though technically there's nothing stopping you from writing a spell that's naturally 10th level or something.

Epic spells can also do pretty much anything you want and you can know as many of them as you bother to research, even if you're a sorcerer. It's even pretty easy to get an epic spell's research DC down to 0, meaning you can technically research it instantly and for free.



What means, by RAW, counters antimagic zone? From within, that is?


Well, casting epic fireball on the beholder who's projecting it, for one...


I've not used the epic materials a lot, and what I did use was about only in the few years following its publication, so forever ago. Any example of what kind of blasting power he could pull off? Would it suffice to kill the beholder?

There is no upper bound to how much damage you can get an epic spell to do besides whether or not you can beat the casting DC for it and even then you can mitigate the DC down as much as you want using extra spellcasters contributing slots.

[danielxcutter]

Epic spell slots and spell slots above 9th level are actually two different things. Spell slots above 9th are only good for casting metamagicked up spells that go above 9th, though technically there's nothing stopping you from writing a spell that's naturally 10th level or something.

Nitpick: in Faerun there literally is something stopping you from researching such a spell; the goddess of magic Mystra who banned 10th+ level spells after Karsus' Folly caused such a mess that her predecessor had to sacrifice himself to stop it. Dunno if there's anything in Greyhawk like that though, and in Eberron high level casters are quite rare in the first place; even dragons tend to take levels in other classes rather than just progress their sorcerer casting.


Epic spells can also do pretty much anything you want and you can know as many of them as you bother to research, even if you're a sorcerer. It's even pretty easy to get an epic spell's research DC down to 0, meaning you can technically research it instantly and for free.

I think Rich isn't following those rules that strictly, otherwise Xykon probably wouldn't be able to cast Superb Dispelling. I also don't think he uses custom epic spells beyond plot devices; all the epic spells directly related to combat in the comic are preexisting ones.


Well, casting epic fireball on the beholder who's projecting it, for one...

I'd say Hellball seems more likely. Seems thematic.


There is no upper bound to how much damage you can get an epic spell to do besides whether or not you can beat the casting DC for it and even then you can mitigate the DC down as much as you want using extra spellcasters contributing slots.

Well yes, but combat spells have difficulty pulling that off. That's why buffs are more efficient.

[Chronos]

All epic spells are custom spells. That's explicitly stated in the rules. The specific ones listed are just examples of what's possible, but to get one of those, you have to research a custom epic spell that might or might not just happen to match that.

And yeah, an anti-magic field is a useful tool against powerful spellcasters, but Sunny's presence doesn't really add anything new. Vaarsuvius has been able to cast Anti-Magic Field for quite a while now, and Durkon as well.

[InvisibleBison]

And yeah, an anti-magic field is a useful tool against powerful spellcasters, but Sunny's presence doesn't really add anything new. Vaarsuvius has been able to cast Anti-Magic Field for quite a while now, and Durkon as well.

There is a rather significant difference between an antimagic field spell and a beholder's antimagic cone: Range. The spell affects a 10 foot radius; the beholder's ability affects a 150 foot cone. It would be far easier for Xykon to simply walk out of the former than the latter.

[hroþila]

There is a rather significant difference between an antimagic field spell and a beholder's antimagic cone: Range. The spell affects a 10 foot radius; the beholder's ability affects a 150 foot cone. It would be far easier for Xykon to simply walk out of the former than the latter.
Plus you simply can't do this on a side-scroller, you'll have to get real close to the beholder to cross to the other side, which means coming into melee range. Your best bet is probably to spam double jump and sweep like crazy, but honestly you're just better off defeating Tel'Arin as quickly as possible to avoid the fight altogether. Clever use of B. Oil to keep Tel'Arin essentially stun locked is key here.

...

What.

[danielxcutter]

All epic spells are custom spells. That's explicitly stated in the rules. The specific ones listed are just examples of what's possible, but to get one of those, you have to research a custom epic spell that might or might not just happen to match that.

And yeah, an anti-magic field is a useful tool against powerful spellcasters, but Sunny's presence doesn't really add anything new. Vaarsuvius has been able to cast Anti-Magic Field for quite a while now, and Durkon as well.

Besides what Bison said, true AMFs are centered on the caster while Sunny's still capable of throwing objects at the Order with their Telekinesis eye and zapping anyone who manages to escape the area.

Also re: epic spells - I know what you mean, but between what Rich says and the names being 100% identical I'm pretty sure that he's just directly taking the example spells from the ELH when choosing Xykon's epic spells, aside from obvious plot devices.


Plus you simply can't do this on a side-scroller, you'll have to get real close to the beholder to cross to the other side, which means coming into melee range. Your best bet is probably to spam double jump and sweep like crazy, but honestly you're just better off defeating Tel'Arin as quickly as possible to avoid the fight altogether. Clever use of B. Oil to keep Tel'Arin essentially stun locked is key here.

...

What.

I'm pretty sure there's a reference here, but that one went right over my head.

[Kartemest]

If they fail to ambush team evil sunny will just get blasted to death in round 1, if they manage to and are close to team evil Xykon and redcloak can sprint or at least double move in opposite directions, so that one of them will be out of the cone next round. Xykon isn't particularly careful with tactics in general, but I'm sure he has faced several beholders in his life or in his unlife. If they both survive round 1 in round 2 one of them can kill sunny with a powerful spell, the other will delay initiative if necessary so as soon as sunny dies he can cast too. If they get ambushed from a long distance and they are in a tunnel, so they can't spread out, I guess their only option is to run toward the beholder and then charge it: Oona seems to be good at tumbling and to be able to do a lot of damage. Or if the tunnel is large maybe they can get on opposite sides of Sunny by just taking a few aoo. Another option if the tunnel Curves would be to run away, and cast something like dimension door after a bend.
That's unless Xykon has an epic damage spell or an epic save or die spell, but I think he would have used it by now if he had one, and he doesn't seem like he is good at researching new ones with ease. Still he got some experience and some downtime recently, so it's possible he recently researched or finished researching a new one, and if he did I would guess it's an epic version of his favourite spells: energy drain and meteor swarm.

[SlashDash]

Over 1200 strips of this wonderful comics, yet people still fail to notice 99% of the time the first thing the author does is remove the wizard from the party?

You think he won't remove a beholder if it's even the slightest inconvenient for the story?

This will eventually turn into an epic showdown between Xykon and Roy. Roy is the main character. Xykon is the main antagonist. No one else would interfere in that fight.

Just like in the first and second gates. Others will buff, but that's about it.

Most likely, either Sunny won't be around or there will be someone else requiring their attention.

[woweedd]

Over 1200 strips of this wonderful comics, yet people still fail to notice 99% of the time the first thing the author does is remove the wizard from the party?

You think he won't remove a beholder if it's even the slightest inconvenient for the story?

This will eventually turn into an epic showdown between Xykon and Roy. Roy is the main character. Xykon is the main antagonist. No one else would interfere in that fight.

Just like in the first and second gates. Others will buff, but that's about it.

Most likely, either Sunny won't be around or there will be someone else requiring their attention.
Uh, pardon, Roy is not the main character. The Order of the Stick is the main character(s). It's in the title. Tarquin's failure wasn't in misidentifying the main character, it was in thinking there had to be one singular main character in the first place: Dude does not understand, but Ensemble Casts are a thin.

[danielxcutter]

Also Roy soloing Xykon both kinda invalidates the teamwork theme going on and also seems rather improbable due to their capabilities. Xykon can just fly out of range and Meteor Swarm him to death.

[Schroeswald]

The Order of the Stick is the main character of the comic but Roy is the mainest character, the one with the mostest importance in every book and the most present character, he is vastly more important than every other character. But no, he is not gonna solo Xykon, he's not powerful enough, doing that would be stupid and he learned that books ago. The Order of the Stick together will save the world, but Roy will probably be the most important in doing that.

[TooSoon]

Over 1200 strips of this wonderful comics, yet people still fail to notice 99% of the time the first thing the author does is remove the wizard from the party?

You think he won't remove a beholder if it's even the slightest inconvenient for the story?

This will eventually turn into an epic showdown between Xykon and Roy. Roy is the main character. Xykon is the main antagonist. No one else would interfere in that fight.

Just like in the first and second gates. Others will buff, but that's about it.

Most likely, either Sunny won't be around or there will be someone else requiring their attention.

They certainly take V out of action as quickly as possible most times, to nerf the party. With V now likely having access to level 9 spells this problem will only escalate I suspect.

[RatElemental]

Wait, when did V get 9th level spells?

[danielxcutter]

I assume that guy forgot that the orange ioun stone bracelet V has increases their CL by 1. Though V should be able to or will be able soon by this point, I suspect.

[TooSoon]

Wait, when did V get 9th level spells?

Not confirmed, but given how long since V last levelled, and the stuff done in the interim, it'd be shocking if V wasn't level 17 yet. Plus we're in the final leg here, and the team needs V to have level 9 spells probably, including to potentially perform the ritual with Redcloak... they just need a way to stop V from overpowering the team, which V already does when allowed to fight without jobbing (which almost never happens). "Oh right, Wizard" would leave the rest of the team with little to do most times.

NB- I didn't forget the stone. V would have an effective caster level of 18 once it's confirmed.

NBB- Remember, although the class level and geekery thread confirms V levelling to 16 in strip #935, in fact the start of that day was comic #834. So it has been a minimum of 396 strips since V was shown to have levelled, almost 1/3rd of the comic, and one of the longest gaps ever. The only thing we're waiting for now is the proof. In the interim V has fought Tarquin's army and high level friends, battled Frost giants, hordes of vampires (who have insane CRs), etc.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, a lot of 9ths aren't that groundshaking, especially when you take out Wish and the spells that either don't fit V's style or don't really work on Xykon.


Gate: V's barred Conjuration.
Wail of the Banshee: V's barred Necromancy, and it won't work on Xykon anyways(or Redcloak if he has Death Ward).
Energy Drain: See Wail of the Banshee.
Meteor Swarm: If Xykon can survive tanking one of his own, it won't do much to him even if V picks it.
Crushing Hand: Fits V quite well, but unfortunately Xykon's got those Boots of Freedom of Movement. V's probably going to end up wasting a turn on this, since they don't know that yet.
Shades: It's not really V's style, and invalidates a large portion of their weaknesses so Rich probably won't have V learn this.
Disjunction: Powerful, but has a risk of friendly fire.
Shapechange: Extremely powerful, but Rich is likely both unwilling and unaware of the real cheese, and "turn into a dragon and smash Xykon" doesn't fit V's character growth.
Teleportation Circle: Utility, but V can't learn this anyways.
Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster, Power Word Kill: Won't work on Xykon, period, and unlikely to be worth the effort against most of his allies either.
Summon Monster IX: V can't learn it, and the summons aren't really strong enough to inconvenience Xykon.
Prismatic Sphere: It's a very good lockdown spell, but it's just as impossible to send spells in as it is out, so I don't think this helps much for a team fight. Maybe trap Redcloak in it?
Freedom/Imprisonment: Not really combat spells.
Soul Bind: Kinda Evil, V can't use it, not really for combat, and I'm not 100% sure if it works on liches in the first place.
Astral Projection: V can't use it.
Time Stop: This would be much more powerful if V had the right spells to make it work. As it is... V can cast buffs on themselves, I guess, but they'd do that before an ambush anyways. And Delayed Blast Fireball doesn't work on Xykon.
Etherealness: Probably powerful, but I don't think it'd help for the Xykon fight.
Foresight: It's a good buff spell. That's about it.
Weird: Won't work on Xykon.
Refuge: I... didn't actually know there was a spell like this. Utility, and also V can't learn this.

And most of the non-core 9ths aren't as impactful as the big ones anyways.

[TooSoon]

Actually, a lot of 9ths aren't that groundshaking, especially when you take out Wish and the spells that either don't fit V's style or don't really work on Xykon.


Gate: V's barred Conjuration.
Wail of the Banshee: V's barred Necromancy, and it won't work on Xykon anyways(or Redcloak if he has Death Ward).
Energy Drain: See Wail of the Banshee.
Meteor Swarm: If Xykon can survive tanking one of his own, it won't do much to him even if V picks it.
Crushing Hand: Fits V quite well, but unfortunately Xykon's got those Boots of Freedom of Movement. V's probably going to end up wasting a turn on this, since they don't know that yet.
Shades: It's not really V's style, and invalidates a large portion of their weaknesses so Rich probably won't have V learn this.
Disjunction: Powerful, but has a risk of friendly fire.
Shapechange: Extremely powerful, but Rich is likely both unwilling and unaware of the real cheese, and "turn into a dragon and smash Xykon" doesn't fit V's character growth.
Teleportation Circle: Utility, but V can't learn this anyways.
Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster, Power Word Kill: Won't work on Xykon, period, and unlikely to be worth the effort against most of his allies either.
Summon Monster IX: V can't learn it, and the summons aren't really strong enough to inconvenience Xykon.
Prismatic Sphere: It's a very good lockdown spell, but it's just as impossible to send spells in as it is out, so I don't think this helps much for a team fight. Maybe trap Redcloak in it?
Freedom/Imprisonment: Not really combat spells.
Soul Bind: Kinda Evil, V can't use it, not really for combat, and I'm not 100% sure if it works on liches in the first place.
Astral Projection: V can't use it.
Time Stop: This would be much more powerful if V had the right spells to make it work. As it is... V can cast buffs on themselves, I guess, but they'd do that before an ambush anyways. And Delayed Blast Fireball doesn't work on Xykon.
Etherealness: Probably powerful, but I don't think it'd help for the Xykon fight.
Foresight: It's a good buff spell. That's about it.
Weird: Won't work on Xykon.
Refuge: I... didn't actually know there was a spell like this. Utility, and also V can't learn this.

And most of the non-core 9ths aren't as impactful as the big ones anyways.

Yeh they've certainly nerfed V's barred school list to limit the damage, but even then there are plenty of overpowered things V could theoretically do as a level 17 wizard. For instance, let's say V has been taking levels in archmage like his master; something that has no cost whatever to V's build. Imprisonment goes from a meh combat spell to a deadly one with arcane reach. V could cast it from 30-60 feet at least by now. As an archmage V could use mastery of elements to cast elemental variations of spells like meteor swarm (e.g. Sonic Meteor Swarm). Leaving aside the archmage choice, there are still very useful 9th level spells.

Prismatic sphere could be used to trap Serini and the beholder also btw.

As for others you've picked some necromancy ones that V can't even use, but Shapechange is a good example of a spell that can and should cause Xykon real problems if used correctly. Wish could be useful, as could others. Of course the response to any of this is "Rich just won't have V use this/use this correctly", but it doesn't mean V is any less capable of breaking things at level 17. Mass hold monster for eg may not work on Xykon, but it's an example of a spell that really negates most of the party. Horde of monsters coming? Mass hold monster. Tough monster ahead? Meteor Swarm. Redcloak needs to be neutralized?? Crushing hand. There are also plenty of non-core spells too you know. What is Xykon going to do against Binding Chain of Fate other than die?

Plus that's not getting into what V can do WITH 9th level spell SLOTS, never mind the spells themselves. A lot of cheap stuff previously inaccessible suddenly is available. Maximised disintegrate deals 108 HP damage for V at lvl 17 even without another spell quickened next to it, though I guess V can already do that.

[SlashDash]

Uh, pardon, Roy is not the main character. The Order of the Stick is the main character(s). It's in the title. Tarquin's failure wasn't in misidentifying the main character, it was in thinking there had to be one singular main character in the first place: Dude does not understand, but Ensemble Casts are a thin.

Roy is the core of the story. Always has been, always will be. While other characters can have (and did have) their own arcs, it was always at its core that it's Roy's story. He is the one that took this quest in the beginning. He is the one with the specific oath to defeat Xykon - who is the main antagonist of the story (the Snarl is a McGuffin not the antagonist).

Having an ensemble of characters doesn't detract from who the main character is. Buffy had the scooby gang, but it was always her as the main character.

As for why Tarquin failed, yes, that's exactly why he failed. He tried to force his narrative. This is why he wanted to kill Roy. This is why Elan shoved in his face his secondary rather than primary role. Read the commentary in the book, the author literally tells you that.
Tarquin expected a specific type of main character which the author disagrees that it doesn't have to be that particular character.


Also Roy soloing Xykon both kinda invalidates the teamwork theme going on and also seems rather improbable due to their capabilities. Xykon can just fly out of range and Meteor Swarm him to death.
Again, back to my original point - The author has proven time and time again he knows how to handle these things.
You want to know why Xykon won't fly away? Maybe the battle will take place someplace where he can't do that?
Like... Having the battle take place near the gate where it's underground with a bunch of interdimensional rocks that prevent him from doing that? Just spitballing here.

The point is the author has in the past found perfectly good reasons why 99% of the obvious "why didn't they just do that" questions aren't a thing. I'm sure the epic showdown that this entire book leads to will have worked them out.

Asking those questions now is pointless as we are far far away from the final showdown and we don't even know the terms and conditions of the battle.

But yes, it will be Roy vs Xykon in the end. The other members of the party will contribute of course, it's not like Xykon is fighting solo here. But Roy would need to take Xykon down on its own and prove that he did what Eugene couldn't.


Not confirmed, but given how long since V last levelled, and the stuff done in the interim, it'd be shocking if V wasn't level 17 yet.
In 1102 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1102.html) V says their Forcecage lasts for 34 hours. So with the ioun stone in mind, that means they are level 16 at the time. We got no indication that V leveled up since then.



Plus we're in the final leg here, and the team needs V to have level 9 spells probably, including to potentially perform the ritual with Redcloak


Who says V will be the one to do anything? My bet is that based on Start of Darkness

Isn't it funny that Xykon has 2 people in his soul gem? An epic arcane wizard and a divine epic druid? Both of which have some knowledge of the gates. Coincidence?

[TooSoon]

The class level and geekery thread has V proving level 16 as of strip #935. I believe the number of spells cast verified it. Of course, the Forcecage duration is more convenient to link to for readers, so it has been chosen as the link on his bio, but if you check the "when did this character prove they levelled" chart, you will see the original reference to #935 is still included.

[Morty]

The class and level geekery thread is a speculative thought exercise by readers and nothing more. If Vaarsuvius ever gains access to level 9 spells, I expect the comic to make it clear and treat it with appropriate gravity.

[InvisibleBison]

including to potentially perform the ritual with Redcloak

The ritual doesn't require a divine spellcaster capable of casting 9th level spells, so I don't see why it would require an arcane caster capable of casting 9th level spells.

[danielxcutter]

The ritual doesn't require a divine spellcaster capable of casting 9th level spells, so I don't see why it would require an arcane caster capable of casting 9th level spells.

...? I thought the improved Rift sealing ritual does need a 9th-level divine spell(specifically from a cleric of TDO)?

[TooSoon]

The ritual doesn't require a divine spellcaster capable of casting 9th level spells, so I don't see why it would require an arcane caster capable of casting 9th level spells.

The ritual to seal the rifts I mean; the one Thor wants them to do.

[Riftwolf]

The ritual to seal the rifts I mean; the one Thor wants them to do.

Wasn't Lirian capable of casting 9th level spells?




Isn't it funny that Xykon has 2 people in his soul gem? An epic arcane wizard and a divine epic druid? Both of which have some knowledge of the gates. Coincidence?


I always felt this was to stop speculation that Dorukan or Lirian would be ressed to save the day. It wasn't foreshadowing, it was bookkeeping. Dorukan and Lirian, the two people with knowledge of the gates and their creation, aren't contactable in any way. The Order have to sort this one out, they can't rely on Mom and Dad to fix it (figuratively speaking).

[InvisibleBison]

The ritual to seal the rifts I mean; the one Thor wants them to do.

Oh, I misunderstood. But that ritual, as far as I know, doesn't need an arcane spellcaster at all, so whether or not V has 9th level spells is still irrelevant to its success.

[danielxcutter]

Well, I presume the Order’s going to be making more Gates over the Rifts, so more spells to make dungeons is never unwelcome.

[RatElemental]

For instance, let's say V has been taking levels in archmage like his master;

Hold up, that's quite the assumption. Titles don't require (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) you to take a class of the same name.

[Morty]

Hold up, that's quite the assumption. Titles don't require (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) you to take a class of the same name.

Aarindarius isn't even referred to as an archmage, so it's a doubly unfounded assumption.

[Peelee]

Roy is the core of the story. Always has been, always will be.
Engine is the core of the car but it don't amount to much without wheels attached.

The ritual to seal the rifts I mean; the one Thor wants them to do.
Interesting. I never thought of Thor wanting them to do a ritual together; I read it as the other gods using their power more or less directly and getting Reddie to donate some of TDO' power as a proof of concept. V never entered the equation as I saw it at all.

[TooSoon]

Well the Gates were built with an arcane and Divine caster, and in the fantasy scene they all take in while under the Microcosm V and Durkon together forge a gate, so my assumption is that both the ritual to move the gate and the ritual to build the gate both require 2 casters; an arcane and a divine caster.

[Fyraltari]

Well the Gates were built with an arcane and Divine caster, and in the fantasy scene they all take in while under the Microcosm V and Durkon together forge a gate, so my assumption is that both the ritual to move the gate and the ritual to build the gate both require 2 casters; an arcane and a divine caster.

Correct, but that doesn't say anything about Thor's ritual.

[danielxcutter]

Not to mention that even if they do specifically need arcane magic, at least a few gods have arcane spell slots.

[hroþila]

I mean, it's not a super wild extrapolation. Every other rift/gate-related thingy we've seen involved both arcane and divine magic: the Scribblers' spell to seal the rifts*, their separate spell to create the gates, and the Dark One's ritual. This isn't proof that Thor's ritual will also require a divine caster, but I'd say it does count as evidence.

*I'm not sure this is explicitly stated or shown, but I think it's at least implied.

[Smoutwortel]

My thoughts

Depending how you rule you can either make a Lich essentially invincible in an anti-magic field(and thus also an anti-magic cone from a beholder) or immediately shut down by one.
Liches are held up by magic and get destroyed if their phylachtory is destroyed. They're also immune to all non-magical attacks, which is a bit problematic in an anti-magic field.
Disabling Red Cloak with the anti-magic field if you argue that the dark one is the one who casts his spells, because he is a cleric doesn't work, because of the divine exception, but master Thundershield seems to be convinced Tor doesn't cast his spells, since both he and Minrah don't heal Roy in the area of anti-magic, so that is apparently not the case here.

The Beast Master from the bugbear village doesn't seem to be much of a caster, but could get in serious trouble from a rogue with concentration free flight or a fighter with close air support.

If this is done I would advice the order of the stick to set their higher casters ready with counterspell and healing to protect sunny and their rider from magical distance attacks, which an anti-magic cone doesn't protect against, due to it only surpressing magic and the cone originating from you. I would also advice Sunny to work from a distance as great as possible and put the OOT inbetween her and the enemy. hopefully including dimension lock in that space.

[danielxcutter]

You haven't played much 3.5e, have you?

[Fyraltari]

I mean, it's not a super wild extrapolation. Every other rift/gate-related thingy we've seen involved both arcane and divine magic: the Scribblers' spell to seal the rifts*, their separate spell to create the gates, and the Dark One's ritual. This isn't proof that Thor's ritual will also require a divine caster, but I'd say it does count as evidence.

*I'm not sure this is explicitly stated or shown, but I think it's at least implied.

Even if it does require Arcane Magic that doesn't mean it requires a mortal arcane caster. Thor doesn't want Redcloak to seal the Gates himself, he wants him to contribute enough of his god's magic so that Thor and the like-minded deities can seal the Gates themselves.

[Peelee]

Liches are held up by magic and get destroyed if their phylachtory is destroyed.

You got a source for that?

[Smoutwortel]

They certainly take V out of action as quickly as possible most times, to nerf the party. With V now likely having access to level 9 spells this problem will only escalate I suspect.

She has that soul splice and the fiends want the world destroyed.
I only know one instance in, which it was used: the illusion guarded gate, so they still have two to go.
Ofcourse if V was smart they would spend most of their spell slots on long time buffs, so the Fiends either have to take them down before the attack, but in that case she can wear them down by attempting this twice or accept that the party goes into battle fully buffed by V.

[Smoutwortel]

You got a source for that?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lich_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Description
Confirms liches are undead through magic.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Undead confirms undead are "animated", here I concluded that animation is a continuous process, but I was wrong, because animate dead is an instantaneous spell and thus other animation can be too.
Sorry for spreading this misinformation and good on you for letting me check it.

[danielxcutter]

That's not how liches work.

[TRH]

Liches are held up by magic and get destroyed if their phylachtory is destroyed. They're also immune to all non-magical attacks, which is a bit problematic in an anti-magic field.


That sounds like old-school D&D rules there. Immunity to non-magical attacks is a lot rarer now. Off the top of my head only incorporeal creatures are completely immune to non-magic weapons in 3.5. Liches just have a lot of DR against weapons that aren't both magic and doing bludgeoning damage.

[Peelee]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lich_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Description
Confirms liches are undead through magic.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Undead confirms undead are "animated", here I concluded that animation is a continuous process, but I was wrong, because animate dead is an instantaneous spell and thus other animation can be too.
Sorry for spreading this misinformation and good on you for letting me check it.

Interestingly, I was actually only referring to the "liches are destroyed if their phylachtory is destroyed", part, since the 3.5 Monster Manual is actually incredibly ambiguous/vague on that. :smallwink:

[TRH]

Interestingly, I was actually only referring to the "liches are destroyed if their phylachtory is destroyed", part, since the 3.5 Monster Manual is actually incredibly ambiguous/vague on that. :smallwink:

Xykon's certainly of the belief that he will only die if the phylactery is destroyed as well as his body, and Redcloak doesn't know otherwise, at a minimum, going by SOD.

[tomandtish]

Aarindarius isn't even referred to as an archmage, so it's a doubly unfounded assumption.

Yeah, the only title we know that Aarindarius has is...

He's an honorary Iron Mage Evocation.

[catagent101]

There’s actually a 9th level spell called Invoke Magic from Lords of Madness that specifically lets you use magic in a dead magic zone or AMF for a turn, but that’s about it besides the serious cheese. Or wearing a lead cone shrunk with magic as a hat, but I think that counts as cheese too.

So that's what Xykon's crown is for!

[danielxcutter]

So that's what Xykon's crown is for!

I know you're joking, but that's not how it works. The lead cone blocks line of effect, which lets you teleport out from it.

Unsurprisingly, a crown wouldn't do that unless it was really, REALLY big, and I don't think it'd be small enough to wear even with Shrink Item.

[RatElemental]

Based on the comic so far, liches in oots seem to deviate even from the tiny bit we do know about them in 3.5, which is that their life force is stored in their phylactery at all times. The way it appears to operate is that Xykon's soul is inside his body and when it's destroyed it moves into his phylactery, from which a new body is generated for it to inhabit. If it were to be destroyed Xykon would probably be vulnerable to true death if his body was still intact (at least until he made a new phylactery), and killed off for real if it wasn't.

Phylactery mechanics aside, an AMF explicitly doesn't kill undead creatures, it will only make them disappear until it goes away, and then only if they're incorporeal or summoned. Xykon is neither of those things. An AMf will just disable all supernatural and spell-like abilities that the undead creature has, and shut down their ability to cast spells if they're a caster.

[Riftwolf]

Phylactery mechanics aside, an AMF explicitly doesn't kill undead creatures, it will only make them disappear until it goes away, and then only if they're incorporeal or summoned. Xykon is neither of those things. An AMf will just disable all supernatural and spell-like abilities that the undead creature has, and shut down their ability to cast spells if they're a caster.

Or, to put it another way,

DM: No you can't beat my epic undead boss by casting AMF and hugging him

[hamishspence]

Based on the comic so far, liches in oots seem to deviate even from the tiny bit we do know about them in 3.5, which is that their life force is stored in their phylactery at all times. The way it appears to operate is that Xykon's soul is inside his body and when it's destroyed it moves into his phylactery, from which a new body is generated for it to inhabit. If it were to be destroyed Xykon would probably be vulnerable to true death if his body was still intact (at least until he made a new phylactery), and killed off for real if it wasn't.


That actually fits very well with the 3.5 ed splatbook Complete Divine, which suggests that a lich's soul is trapped within its body.



The souls of characters who die in specific ways sometimes become undead. Those driven to suicide by madness become allips, while humanoids destroyed by absolute evil become bodaks. As with ghosts, the soul creates a new body, whether it's incorporeal such as an allip or corporal such as a bodak's.

...
Not every suicide victim becomes an allip, and not everyone destroyed by absolute evil becomes a bodak; as with ghosts, the exact nature of the transformation is unknown. Similarly, liches are characters who've voluntarily transformed themselves into undead, trapping their souls in skeletal bodies.

[TRH]

That actually fits very well with the 3.5 ed splatbook Complete Divine, which suggests that a lich's soul is trapped within its body.



The souls of characters who die in specific ways sometimes become undead. Those driven to suicide by madness become allips, while humanoids destroyed by absolute evil become bodaks. As with ghosts, the soul creates a new body, whether it's incorporeal such as an allip or corporal such as a bodak's.

...
Not every suicide victim becomes an allip, and not everyone destroyed by absolute evil becomes a bodak; as with ghosts, the exact nature of the transformation is unknown. Similarly, liches are characters who've voluntarily transformed themselves into undead, trapping their souls in skeletal bodies.

Also, I can't imagine any GM anywhere has ruled that you can skip the boss fight against a Lich by sneaking into their sanctum, casting Forbiddance so they can't teleport back to defend their phylactery, and then just smashing it.

[Lvl45DM!]

Also, I can't imagine any GM anywhere has ruled that you can skip the boss fight against a Lich by sneaking into their sanctum, casting Forbiddance so they can't teleport back to defend their phylactery, and then just smashing it.

I mean, I'd allow it, but the sneaking into the sanctum part would be really really really hard.

[Smoutwortel]

If they fail to ambush team evil sunny will just get blasted to death in round 1, if they manage to and are close to team evil Xykon and redcloak can sprint or at least double move in opposite directions, so that one of them will be out of the cone next round. Xykon isn't particularly careful with tactics in general, but I'm sure he has faced several beholders in his life or in his unlife. If they both survive round 1 in round 2 one of them can kill sunny with a powerful spell, the other will delay initiative if necessary so as soon as sunny dies he can cast too. If they get ambushed from a long distance and they are in a tunnel, so they can't spread out, I guess their only option is to run toward the beholder and then charge it: Oona seems to be good at tumbling and to be able to do a lot of damage. Or if the tunnel is large maybe they can get on opposite sides of Sunny by just taking a few aoo. Another option if the tunnel Curves would be to run away, and cast something like dimension door after a bend.
That's unless Xykon has an epic damage spell or an epic save or die spell, but I think he would have used it by now if he had one, and he doesn't seem like he is good at researching new ones with ease. Still he got some experience and some downtime recently, so it's possible he recently researched or finished researching a new one, and if he did I would guess it's an epic version of his favourite spells: energy drain and meteor swarm.

One shotting a buffed beholder is quite hard and as far as we know all his epic(we know 3) spells don't do any damage +already one of his epic spell slots is filled with superb dispell magic as confirmed in the cleric chase, which doesn't sound very destructive.
The destructive epic spell would require 1.5 times the output of meteor swarm to do it with a non-reduced shot and no buffing.

[danielxcutter]

One shotting a buffed beholder is quite hard and as far as we know all his epic(we know 3) spells don't do any damage +already one of his epic spell slots is filled with superb dispell magic as confirmed in the cleric chase, which doesn't sound very destructive.
The destructive epic spell would require 1.5 times the output of meteor swarm to do it with a non-reduced shot and no buffing.

Sorcerers don't prepare epic spell slots any more than they do their normal ones. And beholders aren't that resilient I think?

[Fish]

Tactical use of a beholder: allow V to repeat back the "what are you without your spells" speech to Xykon.

[RatElemental]

Tactical use of a beholder: allow V to repeat back the "what are you without your spells" speech to Xykon.

"Still strong enough to crush your windpipe with my bare phalanges," replied Xykon, as he strangled V to death.

[Emanick]

"Still strong enough to crush your windpipe with my bare phalanges," replied Xykon, as he strangled V to death.

That'll be much more difficult if V has the rest of the Order with hir.

[pearl jam]

Also, presumably V would stand/fly outside the AMF if it were being deployed tactically on the behalf of the Order. :smalltongue:

[TooSoon]

"Still strong enough to crush your windpipe with my bare phalanges," replied Xykon, as he strangled V to death.

But in an AMF Xykon loses all supernatural abilities and is basically just a skeleton. A level 17 Wizard who had not been established as a crap fighter in the comic, but just had run of the mill level 17 Elf Wizard stats, would probably have a fair chance crushing a skeleton in an AMF. Elan would certainly win.

[Peelee]

Tactical use of a beholder: allow V to repeat back the "what are you without your spells" speech to Xykon.

The problem there is that V, nor the Order really, is not still a dragon.

[The MunchKING]

One shotting a buffed beholder is quite hard and as far as we know all his epic(we know 3) spells don't do any damage +already one of his epic spell slots is filled with superb dispell magic as confirmed in the cleric chase.

He's a sorcerer. He doesn't have to prepare his spells ahead of time. If he has any blasting epics, he can throw them out for all of his Epic slots.


But in an AMF Xykon loses all supernatural abilities and is basically just a skeleton.

He's not JUST a skeliton. He's a PC with class levels too. a LOT of them. WHich comes with Epic Combat Boosts. and he has WAY better stats in an AMF than anyone in the order except MAYBE Roy.

[Emanick]

He's a sorcerer. He doesn't have to prepare his spells ahead of time. If he has any blasting epics, he can throw them out for all of his Epic slots.



He's not JUST a skeliton. He's a PC with class levels too. a LOT of them. WHich comes with Epic Combat Boosts. and he has WAY better stats in an AMF than anyone in the order except MAYBE Roy.

He's definitely not able to go toe-to-toe with Roy in an AMF, let alone the entire Order combined. Besides, unless I'm much mistaken (and I might be), starmetal is nonmagical. That should give Roy a huge edge in an AMF.

[danielxcutter]

He's definitely not able to go toe-to-toe with Roy in an AMF, let alone the entire Order combined. Besides, unless I'm much mistaken (and I might be), starmetal is nonmagical. That should give Roy a huge edge in an AMF.

The casters can't use magic either, and it's implied he has Epic Mage Armor which can't be easily suppressed by antimagic. He actually might be harder to hit in an AMF.

[Emanick]

The casters can't use magic either, and it's implied he has Epic Mage Armor which can't be easily suppressed by antimagic. He actually might be harder to hit in an AMF.

While this is all true, I'm not sure it's enough to make a huge difference. Roy's sources of attack bonuses are mainly nonmagical, like his BAB, naturally high Strength, feats, and his starmetal sword; the only exceptions I can think of are his belt and possibly some other unlisted stuff. He's actually pretty optimized for fighting in an AMF. And that's before factoring in flanking bonuses, which he would almost certainly be getting in a situation like this.

The rest of the Order wouldn't be as effective, but five high-level PCs can't be dismissed. And some of them have some decent abilities, too; for instance, if Elan can find a relevant weapon to use, his Dashing Swordsman abilities should still be functional in an AMF, which should give him a decent chance of hitting Xykon and overcoming his DR.

[danielxcutter]

While this is all true, I'm not sure it's enough to make a huge difference. Roy's sources of attack bonuses are mainly nonmagical, like his BAB, naturally high Strength, feats, and his starmetal sword; the only exceptions I can think of are his belt and possibly some other unlisted stuff. He's actually pretty optimized for fighting in an AMF. And that's before factoring in flanking bonuses, which he would almost certainly be getting in a situation like this.

The rest of the Order wouldn't be as effective, but five high-level PCs can't be dismissed. And some of them have some decent abilities, too; for instance, if Elan can find a relevant weapon to use, his Dashing Swordsman abilities should still be functional in an AMF, which should give him a decent chance of hitting Xykon and overcoming his DR.

Rich said a lot of buffs happen off-panel, and Roy losing the +5 and legacy abilities from his sword plus the +6 Str from his weapon is far from insignificant. Same for the others. Haley, Elan, and Durkon don't have stellar BAB and Haley still can't do a whole lot of damage against undead(all she gets is 1d8 per arrow). V's completely useless in an AMF. Belkar might actually be okay, I guess, but he's still got trouble hitting too because TWF builds don't have great to-hit bonuses.

Though to be fair Xykon's DR doesn't work in an AMF either, weirdly.

[Emanick]

Rich said a lot of buffs happen off-panel, and Roy losing the +5 and legacy abilities from his sword plus the +6 Str from his weapon is far from insignificant. Same for the others. Haley, Elan, and Durkon don't have stellar BAB and Haley still can't do a whole lot of damage against undead(all she gets is 1d8 per arrow). V's completely useless in an AMF. Belkar might actually be okay, I guess, but he's still got trouble hitting too because TWF builds don't have great to-hit bonuses.

Though to be fair Xykon's DR doesn't work in an AMF either, weirdly.

I think the +5 from Roy's sword actually still works, because it's a direct property of starmetal and starmetal appears to be nonmagical. Losing the legacy abilities from his sword is definitely Roy's biggest problem, far worse than losing the +4 or +6 belt (IIRC we still don't know which kind it is), but I'm sure he'd be okay with losing the Weapon of Legacy boosts if it means he doesn't have to worry about a Meteor Swarm or a Finger of Death.

You're right about Belkar having issues with hitting, but at least he seems to have taken undead as a favored enemy, which should still be relevant in an AMF.

I actually didn't know about Xykon's DR not working in an AMF; that should make the fight much easier for the Order than it otherwise would be.

[TooSoon]

I knew about the DR not working in an AMF. Basically Xykon is a frisky skeleton with surprising amounts of HP. Roy would truck him for sure. If Xykon was where the Order of the Stick is right now, he would get curbstomped by them no problems, Epic Mage Armour or not (unless he has Epic Spells we don't know about).

[danielxcutter]

I think the +5 from Roy's sword actually still works, because it's a direct property of starmetal and starmetal appears to be nonmagical. Losing the legacy abilities from his sword is definitely Roy's biggest problem, far worse than losing the +4 or +6 belt (IIRC we still don't know which kind it is), but I'm sure he'd be okay with losing the Weapon of Legacy boosts if it means he doesn't have to worry about a Meteor Swarm or a Finger of Death.

You're right about Belkar having issues with hitting, but at least he seems to have taken undead as a favored enemy, which should still be relevant in an AMF.

I actually didn't know about Xykon's DR not working in an AMF; that should make the fight much easier for the Order than it otherwise would be.

Ranger favored enemy bonuses only apply to damage and a few skills, not to-hit. And starmetal doesn't work like that; it's a preexisting material in D&D 3.5e and Roy caring to repair it so much is how he started to unlock the legacy powers. Starmetal in and of itself is basically just adamantine that does 2d6 damage more against extraplanar creatures.


I knew about the DR not working in an AMF. Basically Xykon is a frisky skeleton with surprising amounts of HP. Roy would truck him for sure. If Xykon was where the Order of the Stick is right now, he would get curbstomped by them no problems, Epic Mage Armour or not (unless he has Epic Spells we don't know about).

I mean, he'd be at a major disadvantage yeah. The problem is that I very much doubt the final big fight is going to end with a whimper like that, one way or another.

[Emanick]

Ranger favored enemy bonuses only apply to damage and a few skills, not to-hit. And starmetal doesn't work like that; it's a preexisting material in D&D 3.5e and Roy caring to repair it so much is how he started to unlock the legacy powers. Starmetal in and of itself is basically just adamantine that does 2d6 damage more against extraplanar creatures.

Thanks for the reminder about ranger favored enemy bonuses; I guess it's been longer than I thought since I looked at the ranger rules.

Starmetal in OOTS appears to be a custom material that works differently from the preexisting 3.5 version. At least, the way the Azurite smith describes it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html), a weapon made from a starmetal-steel alloy appears to have no damage bonus against extraplanar creatures but instead duplicates the mechanical bonuses of a +5 weapon.


I mean, he'd be at a major disadvantage yeah. The problem is that I very much doubt the final big fight is going to end with a whimper like that, one way or another.

It's true; we're discussing a hypothetical situation that is extremely unlikely to actually play out in the comic. Then again, that's pretty much what these forums are for. :smalltongue:

[Morty]

Anti-Magic Field is, frankly, a terrible spell that shouldn't exist in the game - then again, I described 3/4 of 3E's magic system right here. Given how hyper-reliant high-level D&D is on magic, it's pretty much a "nothing interesting happens here" field. Whatever happens to ultimately spell Xykon's downfall, I'm pretty sure it won't be "AMF turned him into a medical cadaver with attitude and Roy beat him up". Though the Order using it to their advantage (assuming Sunny winds up on their side) without shutting down Xykon's magic entirely isn't impossible.

[danielxcutter]

Anti-Magic Field is, frankly, a terrible spell that shouldn't exist in the game - then again, I described 3/4 of 3E's magic system right here. Given how hyper-reliant high-level D&D is on magic, it's pretty much a "nothing interesting happens here" field. Whatever happens to ultimately spell Xykon's downfall, I'm pretty sure it won't be "AMF turned him into a medical cadaver with attitude and Roy beat him up". Though the Order using it to their advantage (assuming Sunny winds up on their side) without shutting down Xykon's magic entirely isn't impossible.

Yeah, spellcasting in general is borked and high-level encounters all assume you're backed up with some amount of magic.

I've heard complaints that the devs intentionally overtuned the casters to appeal to nerds and martials sucking because they're "jock" classes, but I dunno. The playtest's a hot mess though; the druid mostly just threw their returning scimitar apparently. I dunno how much is being hideously incompetent when designing that edition and how much was intentional, frankly.

[Morty]

Yeah, spellcasting in general is borked and high-level encounters all assume you're backed up with some amount of magic.

I've heard complaints that the devs intentionally overtuned the casters to appeal to nerds and martials sucking because they're "jock" classes, but I dunno. The playtest's a hot mess though; the druid mostly just threw their returning scimitar apparently. I dunno how much is being hideously incompetent when designing that edition and how much was intentional, frankly.

The fact that spellcasting is more powerful is definitely intentional. Wizards, in particular. The exact degree to which it's the case is probably accidental. But that's rather beside the point, which is that if Sunny helps the Order against Xykon, I doubt the AMF cone is going to be a decisive factor, because of how anticlimactic it would be.

[Doug Lampert]

Yeah, spellcasting in general is borked and high-level encounters all assume you're backed up with some amount of magic.

I've heard complaints that the devs intentionally overtuned the casters to appeal to nerds and martials sucking because they're "jock" classes, but I dunno. The playtest's a hot mess though; the druid mostly just threw their returning scimitar apparently. I dunno how much is being hideously incompetent when designing that edition and how much was intentional, frankly.

3.0 has the horrid playtesting "excuse" (hint: you should know that someone not using their class abilities either means those abilities are useless, or you need a different playtester).

But 3.5 was supposed to be a fixup and had years of play behind it.

They nerfed the three worst overpowered spells (haste, heal, and harm). They nerfed multiply empowered buffs and nerfed buff duration (which was the wrong way to go, they should have made most buffs 24 hour spells with much weaker effect, but nerfing buffs was the correct choice). So, they TRIED to nerf most casters.

But they nerfed the NON-COMBAT uses of animal companions while buffing their combat; and they ADDED natural spell. So years into the edition and long after the broken playtest, they were still buffing druids for no good reason.

They systematically reduced both the DR and energy resistance values, but they made DR harder to overcome while the magic resistances were no better.

They implemented the XP is a river rule from late 3.0 splats into core, changing crafting from an unnoticably small XP cost to an utter joke.

They did a bunch of terribly minor buffs to melee, none of which helped anywhere close to enough; and they MASSIVELY nerfed archery, because we wouldn't want a martial to be competitive with a caster at ranged damage.

[danielxcutter]

The fact that spellcasting is more powerful is definitely intentional. Wizards, in particular. The exact degree to which it's the case is probably accidental. But that's rather beside the point, which is that if Sunny helps the Order against Xykon, I doubt the AMF cone is going to be a decisive factor, because of how anticlimactic it would be.

I do recall that Sorcerers intentionally got shafted because Monte Cook didn't like them.


3.0 has the horrid playtesting "excuse" (hint: you should know that someone not using their class abilities either means those abilities are useless, or you need a different playtester).

But 3.5 was supposed to be a fixup and had years of play behind it.

They nerfed the three worst overpowered spells (haste, heal, and harm). They nerfed multiply empowered buffs and nerfed buff duration (which was the wrong way to go, they should have made most buffs 24 hour spells with much weaker effect, but nerfing buffs was the correct choice). So, they TRIED to nerf most casters.

But they nerfed the NON-COMBAT uses of animal companions while buffing their combat; and they ADDED natural spell. So years into the edition and long after the broken playtest, they were still buffing druids for no good reason.

They systematically reduced both the DR and energy resistance values, but they made DR harder to overcome while the magic resistances were no better.

They implemented the XP is a river rule from late 3.0 splats into core, changing crafting from an unnoticably small XP cost to an utter joke.

They did a bunch of terribly minor buffs to melee, none of which helped anywhere close to enough; and they MASSIVELY nerfed archery, because we wouldn't want a martial to be competitive with a caster at ranged damage.

You sure they were really trying to fix it? Or were they just pretending to?

[The MunchKING]

He's definitely not able to go toe-to-toe with Roy in an AMF, let alone the entire Order combined. Besides, unless I'm much mistaken (and I might be), starmetal is nonmagical. That should give Roy a huge edge in an AMF.

I just said he had way better stats than Roy (although I should have said except CON, obviously). I didn't say he'd necessarily win in a straight fight.


Anti-Magic Field is, frankly, a terrible spell that shouldn't exist in the game - then again, I described 3/4 of 3E's magic system right here. Given how hyper-reliant high-level D&D is on magic, it's pretty much a "nothing interesting happens here" field.

It should be the chance for the Martials to do Their cool things.

[Velaryon]

If Sunny the beholder is any kind of a Chekhov's gun, I don't think it's for the final fight against Xykon. That would be anticlimactic and take the spotlight away from the heroes.

If anything, I could see Sunny's AMF cone making the phylactery vulnerable by stripping away all its protections. And Xykon will be caught completely off guard by that since as far as he knows, his real phylactery is squirreled away in his astral fortress.

[Emanick]

I just said he had way better stats than Roy (although I should have said except CON, obviously). I didn't say he'd necessarily win in a straight fight.

That's still mystifying to me. It's not clear that Xykon has higher stats than Roy in anything besides CHA and arguably DEX. Roy seems clearly stronger, is probably smarter, and is likely wiser as well.

[TooSoon]

That's still mystifying to me. It's not clear that Xykon has higher stats than Roy in anything besides CHA and arguably DEX. Roy seems clearly stronger, is probably smarter, and is likely wiser as well.

Yeh. Agreed. Put Xykon in the AMF now, with just Roy, and Roy crushes him. Some of the other members of the order would likely win handily too, including Durkon who nobody has mentioned but who is a good fighter with a freaking artefact weapon that still works in the AMF.

[The MunchKING]

That's still mystifying to me. It's not clear that Xykon has higher stats than Roy in anything besides CHA and arguably DEX. Roy seems clearly stronger, is probably smarter, and is likely wiser as well.

I couldn't think of roy lifting anything as big as a giant rock (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), but I will accept it if I'm proven wrong. (Also I kinda remembered that rock being way bigger, but looking at it now...)


And of course Xykon has invented new spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) which shows he has at least a decent INT, and high ranks of Knowledge (arcana). Wisdom is trickier. because Xykon DOES perceive a lot of stuff (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html), he just doesn't CARE enough to say or do anything about it. And other than Perception I can't think of any Wisdom skills he's shown.

[The MunchKING]

Yeh. Agreed. Put Xykon in the AMF now, with just Roy, and Roy crushes him. Some of the other members of the order would likely win handily too, including Durkon who nobody has mentioned but who is a good fighter with a freaking artefact weapon that still works in the AMF.

Except it demonstrably DOESN'T.

[Emanick]

I couldn't think of roy lifting anything as big as a giant rock (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), but I will accept it if I'm proven wrong. (Also I kinda remembered that rock being way bigger, but looking at it now...)


And of course Xykon has invented new spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) which shows he has at least a decent INT, and high ranks of Knowledge (arcana). Wisdom is trickier. because Xykon DOES perceive a lot of stuff (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html), he just doesn't CARE enough to say or do anything about it. And other than Perception I can't think of any Wisdom skills he's shown.

Roy's been shown lifting a frost giant, as well as a boulder of similar if not greater size (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1076.html). Xykon might have some magical boosts to his Strength score, but they presumably wouldn't function in an AMF. Roy, on the other hand, likely has a natural Strength score in the low 20s, which just seems completely implausible for Xykon to be able to match without magical boosts.

Xykon probably has a decent Intelligence score, but in Start of Darkness he's implied to have been genuinely kind of stupid when young (even when he's old, Redcloak refers to him as "not that smart"), and although he's probably smarter than the average person now, after undergoing lichdom, it's still probably not enough to match Roy's generally-implied-to-be-quite-impressive intellect. If I had to eyeball their Intelligence scores, I'd probably put Xykon at 13 and Roy at 16.

Wisdom is the trickiest because it's one of the hardest scores to eyeball in most cases, but Roy consistently succeeds at Will saves and is asked by the afterlife-interview deva why he didn't become a cleric, so his Wisdom is probably pretty good. Xykon might have a high Wisdom, but we don't have too much evidence of this. He mentions his +8 racial bonus to Listen checks when catching V, so that may not necessarily be great evidence for his Wisdom score being good.


Except it demonstrably DOESN'T.

You're right that it demonstrably doesn't, but this is kind of weird because it's a minor artifact, and artifacts by RAW work just fine in AMFs. My guess is that Rich forgot the rule or is ignoring it for the sake of drama.

[danielxcutter]

Or maybe because the powers largely depend on having Ogre Power Gauntlets and a Belt of Giant Strength and the AMF negate both.

[RatElemental]

You're right that it demonstrably doesn't, but this is kind of weird because it's a minor artifact, and artifacts by RAW work just fine in AMFs. My guess is that Rich forgot the rule or is ignoring it for the sake of drama.

The hammer of thunderbolts has a range increment of 30 feet and most of its special powers come from making normal magic items able to stack with each other, both of which are nullified by the AMF. So Durkon is still without his strength boosts and might have just missed because Sunny is hovering way out of his range and he only has the original +3 of the hammer because the belt and gloves aren't working.

[danielxcutter]

Also warhammers normally aren’t thrown weapons so that’s probably a big disadvantage.

[Kish]

Excuse me, an entire species that is paranoid, xenophobic, and insane?
The ones that aren't generally let slip that they aren't well before they can defend themselves, and are promptly killed by their parents.

Beholders are described as each believing that their precise form is that of the perfect being, and any variation from it a ghastly abomination. Genocidal wars between beholder colonies based on things like "your skin color is slightly more grey than mine" or "your central eye is two inches off the placement of mine" is common.

[danielxcutter]

The ones that aren't generally let slip that they aren't well before they can defend themselves, and are promptly killed by their parents.

Beholders are described as each believing that their precise form is that of the perfect being, and any variation from it a ghastly abomination. Genocidal wars between beholder colonies based on things like "your skin color is slightly more grey than mine" or "your central eye is two inches off the placement of mine" is common.

I'm not exactly fond of the "inherently evil species" trope, personally, but at least Lords of Madness wasn't lazy about that.

[Jasdoif]

They implemented the XP is a river rule from late 3.0 splats into core, changing crafting from an unnoticably small XP cost to an utter joke.Calculating XP gained per individual instead of by party average? That was a good idea: Abrading small differences between character levels and turning large differences (like acquiring an LA-bearing template midplay) from poisoning the rest of the party's XP gain while you gain nothing usable for several levels, to making your own XP gain crippled but usable. While as you say, the unnoticably small XP costs for crafting magic items already weren't noticeable.

The whole "spend XP to craft magic items" thing remains a poor implementation, of course; but that's more about how much stock 3.5 put in "player wealth by level", while simultaneously having a crafting system that explicitly boosts wealth by slowing leveling and thus the whole thing is a self-inflicted mess.

[TooSoon]

Except it demonstrably DOESN'T.

As others have pointed out, the hammer itself still works, just some of the other stuff that works in conjunction with it does not. It'll still make short work of Xykon.

[danielxcutter]

As others have pointed out, the hammer itself still works, just some of the other stuff that works in conjunction with it does not. It'll still make short work of Xykon.

If Durkon has trouble hitting Sunny in an AMF... yeah. And he's still losing all of his buffs and a significant amount of damage even if it doesn't shut down most of the hammer's powers. And clearly it's not returning to his hand, so it probably does.

[TooSoon]

If Durkon has trouble hitting Sunny in an AMF... yeah. And he's still losing all of his buffs and a significant amount of damage even if it doesn't shut down most of the hammer's powers. And clearly it's not returning to his hand, so it probably does.

Yeh look I'll admit the artefact isn't behaving at all as I expected when they got stuck in the AMF... but as I understand it it still functions as a magic hammer insofar as it's ordinary abilities work, the ones that don't rely on other items, and even a half decent magic hammer in the hands of Durkon is going to crush skele-Xykon into powder.

I actually love Xykon as a character. I just want us to treat him with the powers he's actually shown to have, not assume "damn, Xykon will always have 10 tricks up his sleeve we don't know about", when in reality actual Xykon has been beaten or almost beaten many times despite his supposed invincibility; beaten by Roy, beaten by Soon, beaten by a Silver Dragon before getting bailed out, etc. Plot armour aside, Xykon should be screwed if the order and Serini team up, which is why it's so weird Serini has apparently given up all hope. Either she knows something about his abilities (that have developed since all the beatings he took), or she's being overly cautious.

[danielxcutter]

Yeh look I'll admit the artefact isn't behaving at all as I expected when they got stuck in the AMF... but as I understand it it still functions as a magic hammer insofar as it's ordinary abilities work, the ones that don't rely on other items, and even a half decent magic hammer in the hands of Durkon is going to crush skele-Xykon into powder.

I actually love Xykon as a character. I just want us to treat him with the powers he's actually shown to have, not assume "damn, Xykon will always have 10 tricks up his sleeve we don't know about", when in reality actual Xykon has been beaten or almost beaten many times despite his supposed invincibility; beaten by Roy, beaten by Soon, beaten by a Silver Dragon before getting bailed out, etc. Plot armour aside, Xykon should be screwed if the order and Serini team up, which is why it's so weird Serini has apparently given up all hope. Either she knows something about his abilities (that have developed since all the beatings he took), or she's being overly cautious.

Real talk. Do you seriously expect the fight to be a total curbstomp because Sunny completely negates anything Team Evil can do?

[TooSoon]

Real talk. Do you seriously expect the fight to be a total curbstomp because Sunny completely negates anything Team Evil can do?

That's plot armour though, not because of actual abilities. MitD probably laughs at an AMF anyhow.

[Jasdoif]

Real talk. Do you seriously expect the fight to be a total curbstomp because Sunny completely negates anything Team Evil can do?Hmm....Would negating the Gate count?

[danielxcutter]

Hmm....Would negating the Gate count?

:mitd: What Gate?

But seriously I don't get where you're going with that.

[Jasdoif]

Real talk. Do you seriously expect the fight to be a total curbstomp because Sunny completely negates anything Team Evil can do?Hmm....Would negating the Gate count?But seriously I don't get where you're going with that.As Durkon mentioned (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1239.html), normally you'd want to move out of the area of the AMF cone; so the best chance of using such against Team Evil would involve keeping them stuck in one place like the Order currently is. If getting them to head into a trap in an enclosed like the Order did doesn't work out, the most likely spot is where they're headed: around the Gate, where presumably they'll be gathered while performing the Gate ritual.

Which would mean the Gate itself could possibly end up inside the AMF cone, almost certainly by accident, and that's what I'm wondering about.

The seal itself may or may not continue functioning, depending on its caster level and the result of a dispel check; but the Gate would be suppressed like any other magic item would be, which could possibly have bad (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0898.html) results (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html). And, well, if the rift did open then it would probably negate anything Team Evil can do. And negate Team Evil. And eventually negate the world around Team Evil.

[danielxcutter]

Ah.

Hmm. You know, I have a feeling Serini won't want to risk her adoptive children in a fight with Xykon. But I can see that happening if she gets talked into it yeah.

[Morty]

Yeh look I'll admit the artefact isn't behaving at all as I expected when they got stuck in the AMF... but as I understand it it still functions as a magic hammer insofar as it's ordinary abilities work, the ones that don't rely on other items, and even a half decent magic hammer in the hands of Durkon is going to crush skele-Xykon into powder.

I actually love Xykon as a character. I just want us to treat him with the powers he's actually shown to have, not assume "damn, Xykon will always have 10 tricks up his sleeve we don't know about", when in reality actual Xykon has been beaten or almost beaten many times despite his supposed invincibility; beaten by Roy, beaten by Soon, beaten by a Silver Dragon before getting bailed out, etc. Plot armour aside, Xykon should be screwed if the order and Serini team up, which is why it's so weird Serini has apparently given up all hope. Either she knows something about his abilities (that have developed since all the beatings he took), or she's being overly cautious.

Obviously, Serini disagrees that Sunny's AMF would be enough to defeat Xykon. Whether she's right or wrong matters far less than the fact that she believes it right now. Maybe the Order will convince her they've got a shot at destroying Xykon and deserve the right to try. Maybe they won't. It's very likely they'll try to impress on her the fact that there's no choice in the matter because her "Xykon rules the world for a while before someone takes him out" worst caste scenario is not going to happen. It may also work or not. Either way, a hypothetical scenario where Xykon is trapped in a small room with an AMF on it doesn't figure into it.

[Jasdoif]

An AMf will...shut down their ability to cast spells if they're a caster.No, actually. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a)


When a spellcaster is inside an antimagic area, any spells she casts are suppressed. Such spells don't actually fail unless their durations are instantaneous. Spells with longer durations are suppressed until the caster somehow leaves the antimagic area (though time spent within the antimagic area counts against the spell's duration). If the caster isn't aware she's in an antimagic area, handle the situation in the same way you'd handle it if the caster has aimed a spell into the antimagic area from outside.You can check the spell description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) because that is as suspicious as it sounds; but unless you're trying to use a magic item to do it, there's nothing preventing you from casting a spell inside an antimagic field. Typically this is silly because the spell will be suppressed; but if you can deal with that (epic spells might resist the dispel check (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld); invoke magic is explicitly intended for this sort of situation), and/or you want a long-duration spell running the moment you get outside the AMF, you can certainly do so.

[RatElemental]

No, actually. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a)

You can check the spell description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) because that is as suspicious as it sounds; but unless you're trying to use a magic item to do it, there's nothing preventing you from casting a spell inside an antimagic field. Typically this is silly because the spell will be suppressed; but if you can deal with that (epic spells might resist the dispel check (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld); invoke magic is explicitly intended for this sort of situation), and/or you want a long-duration spell running the moment you get outside the AMF, you can certainly do so.

While technically you can cast inside of an AMF, the spell won't do anything until you leave it and that's really more what I was getting at.