Trying to build an Arcane Trickster / Bladesinger / Battlesmith

[Wasp]

Okay, maybe you can help with this. I am thinking about building an Arcane Trickster mixed with Bladesinger and Battlesmith in order to allow for the following from most important to least important:

1. Main hand attack with a rapier with BB/GFB and off hand bonus attack with a hand crossbow
2. Getting Sneak Attack to improve damage output
3. Getting a familiar/steel defender for additional advantage opportunities
4. INT first, DEX second
5. Mage Hand Legerdemain (just because I think it's cool)
6. Some kind of Elf (but with Tasha's allowed)

My idea would be to pick a Tasha lineage that grants crossbow expert on first level. Then probably start as an Artificer until 3 and pick Battlesmith and then Wizard Bladesinger 2 for that INT synergy and then go Rogue Arcane Trickster for the rest.

However that would mean that the first ASI would only be at level 9! Ouch! Maybe that INT bonus doesn't really do much if you are so behind? Plus Sneak Attack would be really lagging behind - as would anything else. I am struggling and any help would be welcome!

[Gignere]

Okay, maybe you can help with this. I am thinking about building an Arcane Trickster mixed with Bladesinger and Battlesmith in order to allow for the following from most important to least important:

1. Main hand attack with a rapier with BB/GFB and off hand bonus attack with a hand crossbow
2. Getting Sneak Attack to improve damage output
3. Getting a familiar/steel defender for additional advantage opportunities
4. INT first, DEX second
5. Mage Hand Legerdemain (just because I think it's cool)
6. Some kind of Elf (but with Tasha's allowed)

My idea would be to pick a Tasha lineage that grants crossbow expert on first level. Then probably start as an Artificer until 3 and pick Battlesmith and then Wizard Bladesinger 2 for that INT synergy and then go Rogue Arcane Trickster for the rest.

However that would mean that the first ASI would only be at level 9! Ouch! Maybe that INT bonus doesn't really do much if you are so behind? Plus Sneak Attack would be really lagging behind - as would anything else. I am struggling and any help would be welcome!

I don’t get this why int first? I don’t even think the battle smith levels are necessary, I mean if you really need the repeating infusion see if he is willing to just give it to you in your +1 handcrossbow.

There are good builds with just AT and wizard.

You can’t do BB with hand crossbow unless you go at least 6 levels in Bladesinger. Because you need to take the attack action to get the bonus action attack. The only way that this can be done currently is with either EK 7 or BS 6 and valor bard at a high level.

Since that’s your number 1 schtick you need to beeline to level 6 Bladesinger ASAP.

With BS 6 you can use Shadowblade (SB) instead of a regular weapon and now you can hit with the SB drop it, shoot with hand crossbow, next round bonus action bring back the SB, you don’t even need the crossbow expert feat to do this.

You really don’t need rogue or battle smith to pull off your style. However to fill your other requirements you likely should go into AT after level 6 Bladesinger.

[Omni-Centrist]

Don't do this. All three of these classes are Level hungry and not really as front loaded as they seem. The best one out of the gate is Bladesinger, but Arcane Trickster and Battle Smith want heavy investments before they really start to shine.

I would recommend a combination of your two favorite ones. Bladesinger is the best of these to take the least levels in if you discount spellcasting over sneak attack, but after playing a high Level Bladesinger I think it would be a mistake to sidestep those admittedly really nice high level spell slots.

[sayaijin]

I don’t get this why int first? I don’t even think the battle smith levels are necessary, I mean if you really need the repeating infusion see if he is willing to just give it to you in your +1 handcrossbow.



I believe BS gives attacks based on Int, so the character would be SAD.

Otherwise I will echo what has been said. It's a really cool idea to make a SAD rogue/wizard with some infusions and a robot buddy. If you want to do it for fun or novelty then I say go for it...but it is not optimal.

Another idea for you to consider is just Bladesinger/Battlesmith if you want combat SADness and spell casting. You'll need to work with your DM on crafting the right kind of armor because Bladesong doesn't work with medium or heavy armor. Beyond that, just take Telekinetic for most of the benefits of MHL.

Your best bet is honestly just going Bladesinger with the telekinetic feat.

[Wasp]

The main thing I want is doing my main combat damage through

1 Main hand attack with a rapier
2 Off hand bonus attack with a hand crossbow

So to use the hand crossbow while in melee I need Crossbow Expert as a feat and if I don't want difficult to pull off multiple hand crossbows or do silly dropping/picking up shenanigans, I need access to the Repeating Shot infusion (or a DM that gives me access to a crossbow that doesn't need a free hand for loading ammunition)

I guess I could just do 1 level of artificer and then go Rogue but I don't know if this will provide me with the ability to stay in the front line and make my thing if my bonus action is going to the crossbow attack and not a cunning action. I also think I would need access to a familiar to increase the ways to get advantage (alternatively i could go to Artificer 3 to get the Iron Defender) and have something like Bladesong to help me out.

Alternatively one could try to go Battlesmith/Bladesinger and not go rogue, but that doesn't really feel like a character that would rely on the tactic I want to use.

[stoutstien]

Okay, maybe you can help with this. I am thinking about building an Arcane Trickster mixed with Bladesinger and Battlesmith in order to allow for the following from most important to least important:

1. Main hand attack with a rapier with BB/GFB and off hand bonus attack with a hand crossbow
2. Getting Sneak Attack to improve damage output
3. Getting a familiar/steel defender for additional advantage opportunities
4. INT first, DEX second
5. Mage Hand Legerdemain (just because I think it's cool)
6. Some kind of Elf (but with Tasha's allowed)

My idea would be to pick a Tasha lineage that grants crossbow expert on first level. Then probably start as an Artificer until 3 and pick Battlesmith and then Wizard Bladesinger 2 for that INT synergy and then go Rogue Arcane Trickster for the rest.

However that would mean that the first ASI would only be at level 9! Ouch! Maybe that INT bonus doesn't really do much if you are so behind? Plus Sneak Attack would be really lagging behind - as would anything else. I am struggling and any help would be welcome!

Based on what you want this character to do conceptually I don't see the reason for the Bladesinger levels. None of the six listed goals are facilitated by the additional class dip and with delay all of them. To can grab a familiar via a SWT now so you don't even need a feat.

[Wasp]

I that case I should maybe just go either

AT X / Battlesmith 3 for Repeating Shot and Robot

or

AT X / Artificer 1 / Wizard 1 for Repeating Shot and Familiar

(as I need Crossbow Expert at first level and cannot get Magic Initiate)

[chiefwaha]

Bladesinger 6 is actually required to get off BB/GFB with an off-hand attack of any sort, since you need to use the Attack action, and Bladesinger the only way to get a cantrip included on the Attack action.

Then you run into the ammunition property, so you'll need at least 2 levels of artificer for repeating crossbow infusion.

Steel Defender competes for the off-hand bonus action, but Battlesmith lets you use your INT for attacks with magic weapons, so not really sure.

If I was truly going to go for what you want, I think I'd go Bladesinger 6+/Artificer 2/Arcane Trickster X

EDIT: Just had a thought... it would require some buy in from the DM, but I believe you could try to talk him into allowing your Mage Hand Legerdemain to reload your crossbow and simply drop Artificer. I mean you're going to be quite high level already to pull this off and it isn't really overpowered, I'd probably allow it.

[quindraco]

Okay, maybe you can help with this. I am thinking about building an Arcane Trickster mixed with Bladesinger and Battlesmith in order to allow for the following from most important to least important:

1. Main hand attack with a rapier with BB/GFB and off hand bonus attack with a hand crossbow
2. Getting Sneak Attack to improve damage output
3. Getting a familiar/steel defender for additional advantage opportunities
4. INT first, DEX second
5. Mage Hand Legerdemain (just because I think it's cool)
6. Some kind of Elf (but with Tasha's allowed)

My idea would be to pick a Tasha lineage that grants crossbow expert on first level. Then probably start as an Artificer until 3 and pick Battlesmith and then Wizard Bladesinger 2 for that INT synergy and then go Rogue Arcane Trickster for the rest.

However that would mean that the first ASI would only be at level 9! Ouch! Maybe that INT bonus doesn't really do much if you are so behind? Plus Sneak Attack would be really lagging behind - as would anything else. I am struggling and any help would be welcome!

I'm guessing some of these can't be actually mandatory - for example, if you can make the attack with the hand crossbow, there's no plausible way you need it to consume your bonus action. Sneak Attack being priority 2 supports this assumption - and priority 3 includes a steel defender, which consumes your bonus action if you want it to take the Help action.

The really good news for me here is you didn't mandate anything about OAs, which means I don't need Repeating Shot (you can drop your rapier during the crossbow shot), and the only other things Artificer does for us are Steel Defender, which you will let be a familiar instead, and attacking with INT, which is down at priority 4. So we can drop Artificer entirely from the design space.

BB/GFB + an attack of your own (not from a pet) requires Bladesinger 6, Lorehold (if you're allowing the UA, class doesn't matter) 6, Eldritch Knight 7, Sorcerer 3, or any source of the Haste spell. Sneak Attack by definition requires Rogue. Assuming you don't mind the Bladesinger levels nerfing your AT caster level progression, I guess the low-hanging fruit here is a Mountain Dwarf Bladesinger/Arcane Trickster:
Bladesinger 1-6
L1: D17 I17 Co15
L2: Bladesinger
L4: D18 I18 Co15

As soon as you hit Bladesinger 6 - so starting at level 7 - you can bail out for Rogue whenever you like, and you can pick any Rogue subclass you like, including Arcane Trickster. It's not critically important whether you go to D20 or I20 first. Crossbow Expert is necessary here for a third attack - you already swing a BB/GFB and then make an attack - as a bonus action, which is a terrible idea, since you're a Rogue, so your bonus action is better spent on Disengage to help Booming Blade do its work.

What Bladesinger does particularly well, incidentally, is have high AC. If that's not a high priority for you, here's another example way to do it, which I'll use Lorehold for (if you don't have access to the UA, you can use any other Pact, but Genielock and Hexblade both have good synergy here):

Sorcerer (Any) 3: Quickened Spell and the ability to consume spell slots to fuel Quickened Spell
Warlock (Lorehold) 6: 6 sorcery points (3 instances of Quickened) per Short Rest, and every BB/GFB includes another attack, which can be crossbow. Also Devil's Sight, so your spell slots can be Darkness for Advantage, rather than Quickened, if you want, and Pact of the Chain gets you an invisible familiar who can just spam the Help action without consuming your action economy, and/or just stand next to what you want to Sneak Attack.
Rogue (Any): Sneak Attack!

Or:
Sorcerer (Any) 3: Quickened Spell and the ability to consume spell slots to fuel Quickened Spell
Warlock (Hexblade) 3: 4 sorcery points (2 instances of Quickened) per Short Rest, and Devil's Sight and an invisible familiar. You use Quickened to free up your action for a second BB or a crossbow shot or whatever.
Rogue (Any): Sneak Attack!

Note on both of these: if you have Rogue levels, and you don't mind staying next to your target and/or can walk away for free (such as using the Darkness trick, or by being a Swashbuckler, or whatever) over to a second target, you can double BB + double Sneak anyone by casting Quickened BB, then Readying your action for a second BB just after your turn ends. Likewise, if you can walk away for free, you can Quickened BB, back up 5 feet, and ready your second for the enemy approaching you, meaning the second BB happens after the first triggers (I have no idea how your DM handles someone being hit with multiple BBs before they move).

[kore]

I that case I should maybe just go either

AT X / Battlesmith 3 for Repeating Shot and Robot

or

AT X / Artificer 1 / Wizard 1 for Repeating Shot and Familiar

(as I need Crossbow Expert at first level and cannot get Magic Initiate)

You need Artificer 2 for Infusions (i.e. Repeating Shot).

[Wasp]

Yeah, thanks, that was a dumb little mistake

Edit:

EDIT: Just had a thought... it would require some buy in from the DM, but I believe you could try to talk him into allowing your Mage Hand Legerdemain to reload your crossbow and simply drop Artificer. I mean you're going to be quite high level already to pull this off and it isn't really overpowered, I'd probably allow it.
Great Minds think alike! In fact, I posted something along those lines in the Homebrew Forum.

The problem of the regular MHLegerdemain for this purpose is that you have to use a bonus action to do it, so you can't attack with both weapons every round.

[ff7hero]

A sixth level Bladesinger could take the Attack action to cast Booming Blade and then shoot with a Hand Crossbow while preserving their Bonus Action if that helps at all.

[GearsX]

Okay, maybe you can help with this. I am thinking about building an Arcane Trickster mixed with Bladesinger and Battlesmith in order to allow for the following from most important to least important:

1. Main hand attack with a rapier with BB/GFB and off hand bonus attack with a hand crossbow
2. Getting Sneak Attack to improve damage output
3. Getting a familiar/steel defender for additional advantage opportunities
4. INT first, DEX second
5. Mage Hand Legerdemain (just because I think it's cool)
6. Some kind of Elf (but with Tasha's allowed)

My idea would be to pick a Tasha lineage that grants crossbow expert on first level. Then probably start as an Artificer until 3 and pick Battlesmith and then Wizard Bladesinger 2 for that INT synergy and then go Rogue Arcane Trickster for the rest.

However that would mean that the first ASI would only be at level 9! Ouch! Maybe that INT bonus doesn't really do much if you are so behind? Plus Sneak Attack would be really lagging behind - as would anything else. I am struggling and any help would be welcome!

Any of these classes would be stronger as a single class then multi'd. You just lose too much by multiclassing.

Steel defender HP is absed off your artificer levels so with a small amount of battlesmith lvls wouldn't be very good, and not very helpful other then played as a "wall" and its reaction at higher lvls considering your BA would be better used elsewhere.

Plus you want battlesmith at high levels to get all those juicy infusions and also abilities such as flash of genius and the increase to number of attunable magic items to yourself is good also, especially brought to 20th lvl where you gain + to all saving throws depending on the amount of attuned items on yourself, depending what you have infused can always be the max.

It already gets BB/GFB and such since tashas so thats got you covered add in crossbow expert and you can stab and shoot allday long.

Depending the amount of levels of rogue you want to go into unless you take 5 levels in rogue for 3d6 sneak attack you might as well just stick to battlesmith for arcane jolt at 9th level for 2d6 extra force dmg added to your or your steel defenders dmg, and later becomes 4d6, or choose to have it heal for the same amount too an ally. And then if you want advantages to dexs skills and such like a thief would just infuse yourself a cloak and boots of elvenkind and your sneaking with the best of em.

Legerdmend I also thought would be cool when I first made my rock gnome battlesmith for some fun shenanagins like making bombs and planting em and such, but looking back thought it wouldnt be worth the lose of other artificer lvls. You can just grab the mage hand cantrip and get telekinetic and almiost do the same thing. Using the mage hand to reload your xbow would use the ba and be a waste if you ask me when you can just get repeating shot the moment you have access to infusions also.

The bladesingers dance would be decent for the int to ac for a 2 lvl dip but I mean, if your wanting to fight with a rapier and xbow you wouldnt be able to really use both weapons while dancing since you cant have anything in your off hand while doing the dance. i'd rather just use infusions to increase armor at worse. plus your an artificer be creative and craft stuff, see if your dm wont let you craft a buckler/shield light crossbow hybrid or such things.

[Gignere]

The bladesingers dance would be decent for the int to ac for a 2 lvl dip but I mean, if your wanting to fight with a rapier and xbow you wouldnt be able to really use both weapons while dancing since you cant have anything in your off hand while doing the dance. i'd rather just use infusions to increase armor at worse. plus your an artificer be creative and craft stuff, see if your dm wont let you craft a buckler/shield light crossbow hybrid or such things.

This is not true, bladesingers can dual wield, Bladesong stops when you two hand a weapon, not when you hold things in two hands.

[GearsX]

This is not true, bladesingers can dual wield, Bladesong stops when you two hand a weapon, not when you hold things in two hands.

True sorry just used to not playing that ways since my dms never allowed it sinc ethey found it dumb that you can duakl wield yet not weild a shield.

So like I said the bladesong is the only good thing I can see being a decent + to mcing alongside a few wizard spells.

I myself think it would slow down the artificer more than anything and would just wear heavier armor and focus on reaction spells and such to help with the slightly lower ac.