Which Arcana Tradition a Wizard Demon hunter would be?

[Cikomyr2]

So I have this anime-like character concept dating back 10 years that is not original at all: an scarred, sword wielding elf Wizard who hunts demon

Why he hunts demons has varied a lot and is a bit irrelevant for the class. I was wondering which Arcane tradition would better suited?

Abjuration to help against possession and dispel magic sounds logic.

Bladesinger is an obvious, but I am not sure I want to go gish.

Divination can really **** demons up to then banish them

Conjuration may be thematic..?

What do you think?

[Man_Over_Game]

Abjuration, probably. It's the school of Banishment magic, which is extra effective against "Outsiders".

[Gignere]

Maybe a war wizard with the reaction +4 to save it can represent demon hunting training to resist their powers.

[No brains]

Demons often end up with both magic resistance and decent AC. Divination might be a good pick for foiling their defenses. This guy was fated to fight demons after all.

Portent is also one of the few ways to make time when demons with Dispel Magic at-will (of which there are a few) try to brute-force dispel your spells, which can counter some abjurations and conjurations that could be used against them.

[LudicSavant]

Banishment magic, which is extra effective against "Outsiders".

You sure about that?

Demons tend to have good Charisma saves, and Magic Resistance. And stronger demons have all that plus Legendary Resistance, too.

What's worse, Banishment only incapacitates the target if they're native to the plane you're on. Outsiders don't get incapacitated. Some demons can just cast Dispel Magic on themselves after you Banish them! Others will self-buff themselves while their allies dispel you / break your Concentration for them to return!

In my experience, the best spellcasters for fighting demons are the ones that casually ignore their defenses. For example, Evokers (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170) and Bladesingers often simply do not give a single damn (ha, ha) if you have Magic Resistance, Legendary Resistance, elemental resistance, great saves, etc.

Demons spend a lot of their defensive budget on all these things, so if you ignore them, they're made of paper.

Whatever the thing you want to do is, odds are there's some way to do it without having to go through Magic Resistance. For example, Steel Wind Strike is an AoE blast that does Force damage, benefits from Advantage, and doesn't allow saving throws.

[Rukelnikov]

Divination's Third Eye could come in handy to help with the blindness

[MrStabby]

Bladesinger.

Firstly, the most effective thing you can do against demons is stab them. Magic tends to be a bit underwhelming.

Secondly, if you want to be an elf with a sword then this class themaicaly lines up very well.

EDIT:

I would also add artificer to the list. OK, it isn't a wizard but an intelligence based caster might be close enough to what you are looking for if you can consider artifice to be a wizard school.

[LudicSavant]

Bladesinger.

Firstly, the most effective thing you can do against demons is stab them. Magic tends to be a bit underwhelming.

I agree that Bladesingers are a good chocie, but I'd also add that lots of magic is strong against demons.

Just... not @#$% like Banishment. Most of the good anti-demon spells don't give them saving throws.

[Eldariel]

Diviner or a damaging build. Diviner can bypass Magic Resistance, which is pretty nice for CCing Fiends. Polymorph a Pit Fiend into a toad; they have save bonuses but not enough to make their save 100% of the time so just point'n'click. Then bury them with 20' deep with Mold Earth. Let them try to dig their way out. Their lift capacity is 1560lb and a 5' cube of loose earth weighs 5*5*5*75lb = 9375lb (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/earth-soil-weight-d_1349.html) so with 20' of 10'/10' earth (150 000lb) there's no way in hell they're ever getting out of there without a place to deposit the excess soil into.

[Unoriginal]

Diviner or a damaging build. Diviner can bypass Magic Resistance, which is pretty nice for CCing Fiends. Polymorph a Pit Fiend into a toad; they have save bonuses but not enough to make their save 100% of the time so just point'n'click. Then bury them with 20' deep with Mold Earth. Let them try to dig their way out. Their lift capacity is 1560lb and a 5' cube of loose earth weighs 5*5*5*75lb = 9375lb (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/earth-soil-weight-d_1349.html) so with 20' of 10'/10' earth (150 000lb) there's no way in hell they're ever getting out of there without a place to deposit the excess soil into.

Pit Fiends are Devils, not Demons.

Also, a Pit Fiend is Large, so being buried 20 feet deep isn't much once they get their true form back.

Also, the place you deposit excess soil when you're digging straight up is "under you".

You're not going to automatically kill a CR 20 incarnation of lawful malevolence with just a Portent and a Cantrip.

[Gignere]

Pit Fiends are Devils, not Demons.

Also, a Pit Fiend is Large, so being buried 20 feet deep isn't much once they get their true form back.

Also, the place you deposit excess soil when you're digging straight up is "under you".

You're not going to automatically kill a CR 20 incarnation of lawful malevolence with just a Portent and a Cantrip.

It will die of suffocation but you need to first get past legendary resistance.

[Unoriginal]

It will die of suffocation but you need to first get past legendary resistance.

A Pit Fiend takes 800 rounds to suffocate, so good luck with that.

The typical Pit Fiend doesn't have Legendary Resistance, though.

[MrStabby]

Pit Fiends are Devils, not Demons.

Also, a Pit Fiend is Large, so being buried 20 feet deep isn't much once they get their true form back.

Also, the place you deposit excess soil when you're digging straight up is "under you".

You're not going to automatically kill a CR 20 incarnation of lawful malevolence with just a Portent and a Cantrip.

Also, good luck finding that much lose earth. By the time earth is more than about 2ft deep it is pretty compacted under the weight of the earth above it. Certainly not what any conventional plain English reading of Loose would suggest. By the time you have cast the cantrip enough times to gather up the topsoil from the area around you, the enemy has probably wandered off.

[Gignere]

A Pit Fiend takes 800 rounds to suffocate, so good luck with that.

The typical Pit Fiend doesn't have Legendary Resistance, though.

Not if it had a frog’s abilities scores.

[Mitchellnotes]

Traditionally, i think abjuration is thematically the subclass that fits, but mechanically may not be as good as some of the other options identified. I love the malconvoker style conjuration myself...

[Unoriginal]

Not if it had a frog’s abilities scores.


Suffocating
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying,


Polymorph

The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies.

[...]

If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce the creature’s normal form to 0 hit points, it isn’t knocked unconscious.

It won't have the stats of a frog for long.

[stoutstien]

Id vote for evoker. Most demons are pretty soft in dealing with just brutal focused damage.

[Mastikator]

You sure about that?

Demons tend to have good Charisma saves, and Magic Resistance. And stronger demons have all that plus Legendary Resistance, too.

What's worse, Banishment only incapacitates the target if they're native to the plane you're on. Outsiders don't get incapacitated. Some demons can just cast Dispel Magic on themselves after you Banish them! Others will self-buff themselves while their allies dispel you / break your Concentration for them to return!

In my experience, the best spellcasters for fighting demons are the ones that casually ignore their defenses. For example, Evokers (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170) and Bladesingers often simply do not give a single damn (ha, ha) if you have Magic Resistance, Legendary Resistance, elemental resistance, great saves, etc.

Demons spend a lot of their defensive budget on all these things, so if you ignore them, they're made of paper.

Whatever the thing you want to do is, odds are there's some way to do it without having to go through Magic Resistance. For example, Steel Wind Strike is an AoE blast that does Force damage, benefits from Advantage, and doesn't allow saving throws.
Huh?
Outsiders don't get incapacitated? https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Pit%20Fiend#content this suggests that pit fiends can get incapacitated. Why would it say "unless the pit fiend is Incapacitated" if is immune to being incapacitated?

And this https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Banishment#content says that outsider or not, home plane or not, the target is incapacitated for the whole duration of the spell.

You're right about charisma saves and magic resistance, even if the pit fiend fails its +7 advantage charisma save it still has legendary resistance. Portent would fail here too. The armor is the weak point IMO, you're better off with something like Crown of Stars. Besides that, cast haste on your paladin.

[Eldariel]

Pit Fiends are Devils, not Demons.

Also, a Pit Fiend is Large, so being buried 20 feet deep isn't much once they get their true form back.

Also, the place you deposit excess soil when you're digging straight up is "under you".

You're not going to automatically kill a CR 20 incarnation of lawful malevolence with just a Portent and a Cantrip.

*shrug* It might not die but it's gonna be stuck there. It's 10'/10' so there's another 10' on top of it and it's not getting out. If it's buried and takes back its normal form, it's gonna displace as much material as its body physically takes. This means it's unable to move as much as a finger, let alone an arm, let alone dig.

[Gignere]

It won't have the stats of a frog for long.

You took out the important parts of suffocating, at the start of its next turn its hps will drop to 0 and it will be dying which cannot be removed even if polymorph reverted it back to its original form. It is still dying and at 0 hps the next turn.

So frog pit fiend suffocates drops to 0 hps and reverts. At its next turn it is still suffocating and it will drop to 0 hps again unless it is freed.

[LudicSavant]

And this https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Banishment#content says that outsider or not, home plane or not, the target is incapacitated for the whole duration of the spell.

That's not what it says. Here's what it actually says:


If the target is native to the plane of existence you're on, you banish the target to a harmless Demiplane. While there, the target is Incapacitated.

That is the only case in which Banishment incapacitates anything.

If it's not native, you don't send it to the demiplane, and it doesn't get incapacitated. It just goes back to its home plane, and that's it.


If the target is native to a different plane of existence that the one you're on, the target is banished with a faint popping noise, returning to its home plane. If the spell ends before 1 minute has passed, the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied. Otherwise, the target doesn't return.

[Thunderous Mojo]

If it's buried and takes back its normal form, it's gonna displace as much material as its body physically takes. This means it's unable to move as much as a finger, let alone an arm, let alone dig.

This assumes a DM is going to use a particular combination of real world physics and game rules, resulting in the ruling quoted above.

A DM trying to stay within the bounds of the rules themselves, could judge that earth on top of the Pit Fiend counts as a Large Object of resilient material...which has 27 Hit Points on average.

The Pit Fiend's Bite Attack does 22 points of damage. Since the Pit Fiend's bite attack is magical, I don't think it is a stretch to rule it can damage stone or anything with it's teeth. Since 'Outsiders' are spirits in the material world,(thanks Sting!), it is not incongruent to rule an 'Outsider' could eat a nigh infinite amount of anything without dying.

This sets up the classic movie moment, where the Powerful Monster is buried under rubble, seemingly defeated....only to have the monster rise from the rubble.

In this case the Devil literally eats their way out of their loamy prison.

"You're not going to automatically kill a CR 20 incarnation of lawful malevolence with just a Portent and a Cantrip." 😉.

The above words, ring true to me. 👍

As to the question of the thread....any Wizard could be a Demon Hunter...even Illusionists. An Order of Scribe Wizard could use the damage type replacement of the Awakened Spellbook feature to good effect.

[Eldariel]

You're right about charisma saves and magic resistance, even if the pit fiend fails its +7 advantage charisma save it still has legendary resistance. Portent would fail here too. The armor is the weak point IMO, you're better off with something like Crown of Stars. Besides that, cast haste on your paladin.

Pit Fiend doesn't have Legendary Resistance. And Magic Resistance does nothing vs. Portent (Portent replaces the whole roll). All it has vs. Portent are its base saves, which do nothing.


This assumes a DM is going to use a particular combination of real world physics and game rules, resulting in the ruling quoted above.

A DM trying to stay within the bounds of the rules themselves, could judge that earth on top of the Pit Fiend counts as a Large Object of resilient material...which has 27 Hit Points on average.

The Pit Fiend's Bite Attack does 22 points of damage. Since the Pit Fiend's bite attack is magical, I don't think it is a stretch to rule it can damage stone or anything with it's teeth. Since 'Outsiders' are spirits in the material world,(thanks Sting!), it is not incongruent to rule an 'Outsider' could eat a nigh infinite amount of anything without dying.

This sets up the classic movie moment, where the Powerful Monster is buried under rubble, seemingly defeated....only to have the monster rise from the rubble.

In this case the Devil literally eats their way out of their loamy prison.

"You're not going to automatically kill a CR 20 incarnation of lawful malevolence with just a Portent and a Cantrip." 😉.

A level 4 spell, Portent and a cantrip. But *shrug* I don't see why it wouldn't work (the ruling that ground counts as an object is so ripe for abuse - destroying ground from underneath someone and sticking them into a hole they can't really get out of would be way too easy). But even if a DM didn't allow you to bury things alive (it shouldn't really matter if it's a CR20 [very arguable] incarnation of evil or a house dog, the important part for adjudicating this is what kinds of abilities it has far as I'm concerned and here 26 Str is quite clearly defined), you'll generally win if you succeed in making the big enemy a toad (or whatever) for an hour. At the very least you can drop it for a lot of falling damage and have everyone ready an attack before you put the poor fiend out of its misery. Balor is a bit more troublesome since it can Teleport but it needs LoS too and just like Pit Fiend, it's not Legendary either.

Frankly, all the high end Outsiders are surprisingly weak in this edition. Even Solars have the same weakness, though their combination of strong bow, flying Greatsword and Legendary Action Teleport makes them superannoying to fight.

[Unoriginal]

This assumes a DM is going to use a particular combination of real world physics and game rules, resulting in the ruling quoted above.

This ruling also assume that a being strong enough to break solid steel chains while bound by them would be unable to even move if buried in loose earth.

[Eldariel]

This ruling also assume that a being strong enough to break solid steel chains while bound by them would be unable to even move if buried in loose earth.

Breaking steel chain is nothing compared to moving tens of thousands of pounds of loose earth though. That's just how stupid a cantrip Mold Earth is (for whatever reason, they made what amounts to a 4th level spell in earlier editions into a cantrip in this edition). Even if you rule against burying things alive, just the ability to dig holes, ditches, create barriers, etc. is worth a bunch of spell slots, not just a cantrip.

EDIT: Just to put it into perspective, a 10' cube of loose earth weights so much that Tarrasque (its lift is 30lb*30*2*2*2 = 7 200lb) isn't anywhere near close to being able to move it, though that's in part down to how ridiculous the lifting rules of 5e are.

[Gignere]

Breaking steel chain is nothing compared to moving tens of thousands of pounds of loose earth though. That's just how stupid a cantrip Mold Earth is (for whatever reason, they made what amounts to a 4th level spell in earlier editions into a cantrip in this edition). Even if you rule against burying things alive, just the ability to dig holes, ditches, create barriers, etc. is worth a bunch of spell slots, not just a cantrip.

EDIT: Just to put it into perspective, a 10' cube of loose earth weights so much that Tarrasque (its lift is 30lb*30*2*2*2 = 7 200lb) isn't anywhere near close to being able to move it, though that's in part down to how ridiculous the lifting rules of 5e are.

Mold earth if applied in anyway remotely modeling real life physics is the most overpowered cantrip bar none.

[LudicSavant]

Id vote for evoker. Most demons are pretty soft in dealing with just brutal focused damage.

Yeah.

The main thing with Demons is just to recognize what their specialized defenses are, and pick the spells that do not care about those defenses.

After all, recognizing the right tool for the job is arguably the defining attribute of a badass monster hunter.

Death: "You know me?"
Trevor Belmont: "I'm Trevor Belmont of House Belmont. Of course I know you. Finding things and recognizing them is what we do."

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah.

The main thing with Demons is just to recognize what their specialized defenses are, and pick the spells that do not care about those defenses.

After all, recognizing the right tool for the job is arguably the defining attribute of a badass monster hunter.

Death: "You know me?"
Trevor Belmont: "I'm Trevor Belmont of House Belmont. Of course I know you. Finding things and recognizing them is what we do."

It's a shame the OP's build is limited to Wizards. The Monster Slayer Ranger is like the perfect demon slayer, especially at higher levels.

[Cikomyr2]

It's a shame the OP's build is limited to Wizards. The Monster Slayer Ranger is like the perfect demon slayer, especially at higher levels.

Blah blah bull**** backstory about the family being cursed with the ritual that could conjure a Demon Prince in the world, and they are entrusted to keep it safe. So need to study magic to make sure the ritual is the real deal on a daily basis

[Gignere]

Blah blah bull**** backstory about the family being cursed with the ritual that could conjure a Demon Prince in the world, and they are entrusted to keep it safe. So need to study magic to make sure the ritual is the real deal on a daily basis

Vhuman Monster hunter slayer with ritual caster feat. Literally Trevor Belmont

[Dork_Forge]

Diviner or a damaging build. Diviner can bypass Magic Resistance, which is pretty nice for CCing Fiends. Polymorph a Pit Fiend into a toad; they have save bonuses but not enough to make their save 100% of the time so just point'n'click. Then bury them with 20' deep with Mold Earth. Let them try to dig their way out. Their lift capacity is 1560lb and a 5' cube of loose earth weighs 5*5*5*75lb = 9375lb (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/earth-soil-weight-d_1349.html) so with 20' of 10'/10' earth (150 000lb) there's no way in hell they're ever getting out of there without a place to deposit the excess soil into.

Ridiculousness of this aside, why would they ever need to lift anywhere near the entire weight off of themselves vertically? As already mentioned they could just attack tunnel out once the Polymorph drops, or tunnel out more realistically, which if anything is more akin to swimming upwards than lifting thousands of lbs of earth.

Though other solid points have already been raised, such as how far down would you go whilst it's still considered loose? How far until you hit stone?

Is this combat even happening on top of or near loose earth?

But here's another one, if earth weighs as much as you say it does, I can't see not ruling the toad or whatever is used just being crushed to death by the first cube, the Pit Fiend then proceeding to wreck the Wizard's face for trying such a thing to begin with.

Then there's the tricky situation where Polymorph is 60' where as Fireball can feasibly hit 150' away. Even Hold Monster has a range of 90 feet and the base mobility of a Pit Fiend is far superior to that of a standard Wizard PC.

[Cikomyr2]

Vhuman Monster hunter slayer with ritual caster feat. Literally Trevor Belmont

Hahahaha that's a good idea. But nah, I wanna play a Wizard.

Maybe I play an Abjurer with a silver sword as my spell focus to cast dispel magic and counterspell.

[Eldariel]

Hahahaha that's a good idea. But nah, I wanna play a Wizard.

Maybe I play an Abjurer with a silver sword as my spell focus to cast dispel magic and counterspell.

In this edition though, silver is mostly for devil hunting. I actually ran a Diviner Devil Hunter, who used Silver Daggers (as implements and "spells"): first Cloud of Daggers, then Tiny Servant and finally Animate Objects and Steel Wind Strike. Worked great for Devils but the campaign focused more on Demons, so I had to fall back on run-of-the-mill solutions instead (Web, Hypnotic Pattern, Sleet Storm, buffs, Wall of Force, etc.).

[Gurgeh]

Previous editions gave cold iron anti-demonic (and anti-fey) properties; is that no longer the case in 5e?

[Eldariel]

Previous editions gave cold iron anti-demonic (and anti-fey) properties; is that no longer the case in 5e?

There's no such thing as cold iron in 5e RAW. It got cut at some point.