Keeping Safe while Trampling?

[Delta_tea]

How does one stay safe while riding their mount into combat? I'm thinking of a Razor Boar (MM2 pg220) with the Warbeast template (MM2 pg 219). The Boar is setup to soak a lot of damage, but I'm fairly sure I'm supposed to be riding it to make full use of its Trample (Ex) ability due to it having a low Int Score (2). It probably isn't smart enough to know how to mass run-over everything. However, if my character is riding, that means I could be the target of those AoOs and not the Boar. Any ideas on how to keep safe while riding through multiple bad guys? I'd much rather the Boar eat those attacks with its nice defensive package (HP127, AC27, DR20, SR21, Fast Healing 10).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Trampled opponents can attempt attacks of opportunity, but these take a -4 penalty. If they do not make attacks of opportunity, trampled opponents can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#trample)"

They can choose to either make an AoO at a -4, or attempt a Reflex save for half damage, but not both.

Also keep in mind the sample Warbeast creature is using scale barding, so it's safe to say that gives it armor proficiency. So give it barding or just have someone cast (Greater) Mage Armor on it and most opponents are likely better off attempting the save.

[ciopo]

Easiest way I can think of is riding a huge or larger creature, then they can't attack you because you'll be out of range, assuming the enemies are medium or smaller

[Crake]

"Trampled opponents can attempt attacks of opportunity, but these take a -4 penalty. If they do not make attacks of opportunity, trampled opponents can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#trample)"

They can choose to either make an AoO at a -4, or attempt a Reflex save for half damage, but not both.

Also keep in mind the sample Warbeast creature is using scale barding, so it's safe to say that gives it armor proficiency. So give it barding or just have someone cast (Greater) Mage Armor on it and most opponents are likely better off attempting the save.

Base creature doesn't have armor proficiency, template doesn't say it grants armor proficiency, so it doesn't get armor proficiency, unless you spend one of it's feats to get armor proficiency.

As a side note though, while they can only attempt attacks of opportunity at -4 against the trampler, or a reflex save for half, the rider is a separate creature, and is provoking a separate attack of opportunity by moving out of a threatened square, so technically, if an opponent has combat reflexes, they can take an attack of opportunity against both mount and rider.

[ciopo]

We're forgetting of the Mounted combat feat, that'd work fine for this purpose


The Boar is setup to soak a lot of damage, but I'm fairly sure I'm supposed to be riding it to make full use of its Trample (Ex) ability due to it having a low Int Score (2).
Also, I think you can use an handle animal check to command it to do the trample, either as a "Handle" or as a "Push" usage depending if it was taught to trample as one of his tricks or not

[Delta_tea]

Also keep in mind the sample Warbeast creature is using scale barding, so it's safe to say that gives it armor proficiency. So give it barding or just have someone cast (Greater) Mage Armor on it and most opponents are likely better off attempting the save.

I'm not worried about the Boar. I'm worried about my medium sized character on its back being the target of that one AoO.


Easiest way I can think of is riding a huge or larger creature, then they can't attack you because you'll be out of range, assuming the enemies are medium or smaller

The Boar is large (5' wide, 10' long) and my character is medium (5'x5'). How does this protect the rider? Do I just say I'm riding on the back half of the Boar and so I'm out of the normal 5' range of a melee attack? Sounds like the best idea so far.


Base creature doesn't have armor proficiency, template doesn't say it grants armor proficiency, so it doesn't get armor proficiency, unless you spend one of it's feats to get armor proficiency.

As a side note though, while they can only attempt attacks of opportunity at -4 against the trampler, or a reflex save for half, the rider is a separate creature, and is provoking a separate attack of opportunity by moving out of a threatened square, so technically, if an opponent has combat reflexes, they can take an attack of opportunity against both mount and rider.

Warbeast actually does grant armor proficiency. It comes from Special Qualities, Combative Mount (Ex), 2nd sentence: "A trained warbeast is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor."

Agree Combat Reflexes may hurt, however, most mooks normally don't have that feat so I'm only concerned that that 1, baseline AoO from several different enemies during a Trample ride.


We're forgetting of the Mounted combat feat, that'd work fine for this purpose

Also, I think you can use an handle animal check to command it to do the trample, either as a "Handle" or as a "Push" usage depending if it was taught to trample as one of his tricks or not

Mounted Combat would help with the Animal Handling check I suppose. But the hit would need to over come his AC and DR before it impacts the check with a +2 DC. So really, I think I'm OK with the Boar getting hit. As the Rider I don't want to get hit.

Handle is probably the applicable command. The Boar comes with the ability.

A silly idea I had last night... What if I gave him an item to raise his Int to 3? That would get him to "humanlike intelligence". Then I could command him to attack the hoard and I just stick back and watch away from the Trampling!

[ciopo]

Raising intelligence is tricky, generally that makes the raises the animal from ... animal to NPC/other PC, meaning you "lose control" of it. At least if you keep to the rules.

What classes are your character? Is the boar an animal companion or just an animal you bought? If it's an animal companion you can do this "squinty" thing : find some way to cast enlarge person on yourself, the animal companion feature "share spells" specifically says you can have spells you cast on yourself affect your animal companion too even if the types aren't compatible. That way you'd be large riding a huge (3x3 squares) boar you then dismiss enlarge person on yourself but not on the boar. You'rr now a medium creature riding a huge boar, stay in the middle square and you're out of reach of most trampleable enemies, if nothing else because you're 10ish feet up in the air because of the boar height.

[Telonius]

Two uses of the Ride skill can help out here. First:


You can react instantly to drop down and hang alongside your mount, using it as cover. You can’t attack or cast spells while using your mount as cover. If you fail your Ride check, you don’t get the cover benefit. This usage does not take an action.

Ride DC there is 15.

Second, if you have Mounted Combat:


Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount’s regular AC.)

So, you can use your mount as cover (forcing the opponent to target it and not you), and - if your Ride check result is higher than 27 - use it to help negate the hit it takes because of that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Boar is large (5' wide, 10' long) and my character is medium (5'x5'). How does this protect the rider? Do I just say I'm riding on the back half of the Boar and so I'm out of the normal 5' range of a melee attack? Sounds like the best idea so far.

The 3.5 version of a Razor Boar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/razorBoar.htm) has a 10 ft. square space, as all large creatures do.


If you can consistently make a DC 15 Ride (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm) check:

Cover
You can react instantly to drop down and hang alongside your mount, using it as cover. You can’t attack or cast spells while using your mount as cover. If you fail your Ride check, you don’t get the cover benefit. This usage does not take an action.


So the boar tramples through an opponent, you drop down on the opposite side of the boar to get out of reach of that opponent's AoO then go back to riding it normally after you've passed that opponent. It doesn't even take any type of action to do this, so repeat for each trampled opponent.

[Thurbane]

Armband of Elusive Action (MIC p.72). 1/day avoid a single attack of opportunity. At 800gp each, you could buy multiples and swap them out after each use.

Admittedly, if you are provoking multiple AoO on a single action, it will only help against one.

Can you use a tower shield while riding? I know it shounds silly, but I don't think RAW prohibits it. A tower shield can give you total cover if you aren't wanting to attack yourself.

What exactly are the rules on riders provoking AoO anyway?

[Crake]

Two uses of the Ride skill can help out here. First:



Ride DC there is 15.

Second, if you have Mounted Combat:



So, you can use your mount as cover (forcing the opponent to target it and not you), and - if your Ride check result is higher than 27 - use it to help negate the hit it takes because of that.

Keep in mind, you get cover, not total cover, so they don't lose the ability to attack you, you just get +4 AC, and only from one side too. Considering they're already getting -4 to hit the mount due to the trample rules ANYWAY, that's not really much more incentive for them to attack the mount over you.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Base creature doesn't have armor proficiency, template doesn't say it grants armor proficiency, so it doesn't get armor proficiency, unless you spend one of it's feats to get armor proficiency.

Nope, the template gives armor proficiency:


Combative Mount (Ex): A rider on a trained warbeast mount gets a +2 circumstance bonus on all Ride checks. A trained warbeast is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor. A vermin warbeast, being mindless and therefore untrainable, cannot have this ability.

Get that boar some full plate and call it a day. Mechanus Gear if you feel like overkill.

[Crake]

Nope, the template gives armor proficiency:

Right, I just assumed it didn't give proficiency, because the person I was replying to said "arguably", so I figured there was inference going on.

[Thurbane]

Keep in mind, you get cover, not total cover, so they don't lose the ability to attack you, you just get +4 AC, and only from one side too. Considering they're already getting -4 to hit the mount due to the trample rules ANYWAY, that's not really much more incentive for them to attack the mount over you.

Umm, am I misreading the text (underlining mine)?


Shield, Tower
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.

When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance.

Also, by my understanding, RAW it doesn't only apply to one side, unless the optional UA facing rules are in play.

[Crake]

Umm, am I misreading the text (underlining mine)?



Also, by my understanding, RAW it doesn't only apply to one side, unless the optional UA facing rules are in play.

Im talking about using the mount as cover, not a tower shield.

[Thurbane]

Im talking about using the mount as cover, not a tower shield.

Oops, somehow misread your reply as being to me, rather than someone else entirely! :smallredface:

My bad lol :smalltongue:

[Delta_tea]

Raising intelligence is tricky, generally that makes the raises the animal from ... animal to NPC/other PC, meaning you "lose control" of it. At least if you keep to the rules.

What classes are your character? Is the boar an animal companion or just an animal you bought? If it's an animal companion you can do this "squinty" thing : find some way to cast enlarge person on yourself, the animal companion feature "share spells" specifically says you can have spells you cast on yourself affect your animal companion too even if the types aren't compatible. That way you'd be large riding a huge (3x3 squares) boar you then dismiss enlarge person on yourself but not on the boar. You'rr now a medium creature riding a huge boar, stay in the middle square and you're out of reach of most trampleable enemies, if nothing else because you're 10ish feet up in the air because of the boar height.

Damn, and adding intelligence seemed like a good idea. I'm playing a Cleric/DWK so I normally avoid thick melee and prefer mid or back line. But the Boar is amazing for fighting so I'm trying to work out a compromise. He's not an animal companion, he's a purchased animal. I'm not sure I can work out all of the size changes you suggested, but I'll definitely keep it in mind. Maybe I can go invisible or something and get the same effect?


Two uses of the Ride skill can help out here. First:
Ride DC there is 15.
Second, if you have Mounted Combat:

So, you can use your mount as cover (forcing the opponent to target it and not you), and - if your Ride check result is higher than 27 - use it to help negate the hit it takes because of that.

Cover definitely seems to be a good way to avoid taking a hit. The main downside is that I give up spell casting. At least I think I do. "while using your mount for cover". So does that mean I can Cover, ride through stuff, then stop, do my Concentration roll for casting while riding, then cast? That would be more usable. I don't have Mounted Combat. I'm trying to use a Mount without investing in feat. Maybe at some point I'll buy items, but I can't waste my feat.

I suppose at some point I could buy this Bridle to get Mounted Combat feat and maybe the Steady Robe to skip Concentration checks while casting.

-Battle Bridle(MIC): 9k, grants Mounted Combat and a +5 bonus to Ride checks. If you already have Mounted Combat you get Ride-by Attack instead. A melee character should upgrade to Riding Boots when it becomes possible.

-Steadying Robe(CM): You no longer have to make Concentration checks to cast spells while being jostled around. And for only 1,000gp.


The 3.5 version of a Razor Boar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/razorBoar.htm) has a 10 ft. square space, as all large creatures do.

If you can consistently make a DC 15 Ride (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm) check:

Cover
You can react instantly to drop down and hang alongside your mount, using it as cover. You can’t attack or cast spells while using your mount as cover. If you fail your Ride check, you don’t get the cover benefit. This usage does not take an action.


So the boar tramples through an opponent, you drop down on the opposite side of the boar to get out of reach of that opponent's AoO then go back to riding it normally after you've passed that opponent. It doesn't even take any type of action to do this, so repeat for each trampled opponent.

I have to happily report, the online SRD is wrong. MM2 page 220, "Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 10 ft./5 ft." My DM pointed out last week that MM2 is the only place they make large monsters that are 5x10ft in size. I also checked and the errata for MM2 does not change this size measurement. I'm liking where this Cover thing is going. With my 21 AC + the 4 from Cover and the 4 from Trample, 29 may be enough to just not care and smash away. Btw I have a buffed ride skill of 20, so no rolling required. Thank you my teammate who's a Marshral class for the dex check aura!


Armband of Elusive Action (MIC p.72). 1/day avoid a single attack of opportunity. At 800gp each, you could buy multiples and swap them out after each use.

Admittedly, if you are provoking multiple AoO on a single action, it will only help against one.

Can you use a tower shield while riding? I know it shounds silly, but I don't think RAW prohibits it. A tower shield can give you total cover if you aren't wanting to attack yourself.

What exactly are the rules on riders provoking AoO anyway?

The item does seem kind of limited. But the Tower Shield idea is interesting. We don't play armor in any direction. We just have flanking rules. So really, total cover with a shield would work. I guess the only real question is, does it consume an action to use it for Total Cover? Maybe I can still cast, then shield cover, then Trample with the Boar? Rinse and repeat?

[ciopo]

Damn, and adding intelligence seemed like a good idea. I'm playing a Cleric/DWK so I normally avoid thick melee and prefer mid or back line. But the Boar is amazing for fighting so I'm trying to work out a compromise. He's not an animal companion, he's a purchased animal. I'm not sure I can work out all of the size changes you suggested, but I'll definitely keep it in mind. Maybe I can go invisible or something and get the same effect?
DWK is dweomerkeeper ?

if you have spellcasting access, then the solution is simpler : Animal growth (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalGrowth.htm) , now your boar is huge so you sit safely in the middle of a fortress of fluff. Buy more boars for good measure to have a nice little stampede going, given you can growth at least 4 animals with the min CL.

You being invisible would work for sure, so long that you yourself don't take hostile action

[Delta_tea]

DWK is dweomerkeeper ?

if you have spellcasting access, then the solution is simpler : Animal growth (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalGrowth.htm) , now your boar is huge so you sit safely in the middle of a fortress of fluff. Buy more boars for good measure to have a nice little stampede going, given you can growth at least 4 animals with the min CL.

You being invisible would work for sure, so long that you yourself don't take hostile action

Yes, Dweomerkeeper. The character is a magic machine. I'll see if there's anyway to get access to Animal Growth. It will be tough since its a mid-tier spell on lists I don't currently have access. At some point I can probably use Greater Anyspell to cast it. The character is only level 6 at the moment.

Having a stampede does sound awesome. But my table get very annoyed if there's to much on the table since rounds get longer with all of the extra rolling.

Thanks for the reminder! I had to take one level of Sorcerer to unlock DWK. Looking at the Sorcerer spell list, I found Minor Invisibility as a Rank 0 spell. So I can burn my rank 0 spell slots which normally do nothing for me and get some protection! There's something called a Knowstones that lets me add spells to my Sorcerer's known list. As a rank 0 spell, the stone is only 500g. This combined with Riding skill - Cover may be the best combination yet. I suppose Invisibility, Swift would be better still (would still have my action available), but I don't have access to Bard.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I have to happily report, the online SRD is wrong. MM2 page 220, "Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 10 ft./5 ft." My DM pointed out last week that MM2 is the only place they make large monsters that are 5x10ft in size. I also checked and the errata for MM2 does not change this size measurement. I'm liking where this Cover thing is going. With my 21 AC + the 4 from Cover and the 4 from Trample, 29 may be enough to just not care and smash away. Btw I have a buffed ride skill of 20, so no rolling required. Thank you my teammate who's a Marshral class for the dex check aura!

The MM2 is 3.0 material, the one in the SRD is updated to 3.5 edition. In 3.5 every creature occupies a square space that's equal distance on all sides. Unless you're still using the 3.0 Player's Handbook, DMG, and other books, you should be using the 3.5 version of that creature from the SRD.

For reference, WotC put a 3.5 update booklet on their website for download but it looks like it's no longer there. Here's a link to it (https://archive.org/details/dnd_3.5_update_booklet/mode/2up) that someone's hosted for posterity, you can see the Razor Boar's 3.5 space/reach is 10 ft./5 ft., meaning it has a 10 ft. square space and a 5 ft. reach.

[liquidformat]

A silly idea I had last night... What if I gave him an item to raise his Int to 3? That would get him to "humanlike intelligence". Then I could command him to attack the hoard and I just stick back and watch away from the Trampling!

It might be to your advantage to instead choose a Grizzly Mastodon or Fhorge and then have it awakened. Even better if you take leadership it can be your cohort, though it would be good if your dm let you use cr instead of ecl for your cohort...

Also Warbeast template may or may not actually work on a Razor Boar since it is now a magical beast since 'beast' was eliminated in 3.5 though not cure if warbeast was updated to include magical beast...

[Darg]

Cover definitely seems to be a good way to avoid taking a hit. The main downside is that I give up spell casting. At least I think I do. "while using your mount for cover". So does that mean I can Cover, ride through stuff, then stop, do my Concentration roll for casting while riding, then cast? That would be more usable. I don't have Mounted Combat. I'm trying to use a Mount without investing in feat. Maybe at some point I'll buy items, but I can't waste my feat.

Using a mount as cover is a nonaction, which means it can be done even while casting, but you probably wouldn't prefer an unnecessary concentration check from defensively casting. So cast the spell before or after you pass by a target.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

A silly idea I had last night... What if I gave him an item to raise his Int to 3? That would get him to "humanlike intelligence". Then I could command him to attack the hoard and I just stick back and watch away from the Trampling!

Why not just use Animal Handling to command it to trample? It'll take some training, and a move action, but guarantees you'll be off on the sidelines, and you can simultaneously teach it other useful tricks like Come, Guard, Assist Defend, etc..