ITP: I try and fix the Forge Cleric problem

[Rhocian Xothara]

So I love Forge Clerics, yet haven't played one in years. One of my earliest 5e characters was a Forge Cleric. Gunthor Blackstone; Mountain Dwarf. However I noticed early on that they're somewhat limited in terms of what they can actually forge. Their Channel Divinity strikes me as a poor man's "Magical Infusions". They can create metal items, but only if they have the metal for it and only up to 100GP in value. Seems a bit unfair considering a 2nd-level Artificer can turn a damn pebble into a Bag of Holding. Instantly.

They have Smithing Tools, so they can just go to a forge and make things the old fashioned way, right?

....Yyyyeah, no. First of all: This isn't Skyrim. "Hi, sir! Mind if I use your forge?" doesn't typically fly well. Unless there's some narrative way in which you can use it (like you spend some downtime helping out at a forge, earning access that way), it's not usually as simple as "sure, you can use the town blacksmith's forge". As it happens, I do allow for this as a DM, but it always comes off as a bit... unrealistic. It's apparent I'm just giving the Cleric agency to stretch their RP legs and let Forge Clerics be Forge Clerics.

The second problem is that "Smith's Tools" suggests things like hammers, tongs, charcoal and whetstones, but a Blacksmith needs much more than this. They need a forge and anvil; a quencher; a smelter; bellows (some modern forges have a complex air system to get up to stupid temperatures), moulds and so on. I'm sure there's more; I'm not a blacksmith. Saying that, I'd love to chat to an actual blacksmith and ask them "if you could design your dream workshop, what would you have in it?"

But the issue remains: Artificers can go ahead and make all kinds of useful stuff instantly from nothing whilst a Forge Cleric has to jump hurdle after hurdle to actually do their thing.

Anyway. I've got a Forge Cleric in one of the games I'm running and today I thought "You know what? I'm gonna fix this."

I've made a fix, and I want you to tell me if it's good; too OP; or doesn't go far enough. Suggestions and/or tweaks are very much welcome.


The Fix:
I've taken inspiration from 'Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion'. Granted, that spell is much more grandiose than this, but then M.M.M. is a 7th-level spell. What I've made is a Channel Divinity feature

Channel Divinity: Divine Workshop
Starting at 2nd level, you can spend a use of your Channel Divinity to conjure an extradimensional workshop. You choose where the entrance to this workshop is located. You and any creatures you nominate can see this entrance and gain entry through it. For anyone else, this entrance is both invisible and intangible so long as the door is closed. The workshop lasts for 24 hours.

Inside, the workshop is a blacksmith's dream: An incredible forge dominates the rear wall, replete with anvils of various heights and sizes, and a bespoke airflow system to reach temperatures normal forges and bellows could not. You will also find grindstones; smelters; pneumatic hammer systems; moulds - pretty much anything a blacksmith could want, and more.

In addition to this, the workshop is run by a dozen near-transparent smiths, all bearing the Holy Symbol of your chosen Forge Deity. They will obey any non-lethal instruction, will assist you with your smithing work and all appear to be competent at smithing. You can also buy raw materials from them at cost. Any items you leave in the workshop will remain in the workshop even after leaving, though it may not be where you left it (the workers like to keep the workshop tidy, and will not brook things just being left around).

Using this workshop, you can craft any non-magical weapon or armour within 24 hours, providing you either provide the required metals or purchase them from the workers. Created items includes Mithral, Adamantine and Silver(ed) items, though of course you'll need to provide or purchase the required materials.

At 6th Level: The workshop has always had a faint sense of divinity about it, and you have become competent enough and attuned to the workshop enough to imbue your creations with a permanent "Blessing of the Forge". Your creations gain a +1 to its AC if it's armour, or +1 to attack and damage rolls if it's a weapon. The item is considered magical. However, the items created cannot benefit from your standard 'Blessing of the Forge' feature after this enchantment.

At 12th Level: Your skill in smithing and familiarity with this workshop starts to outstrip even Master Smiths. You can now imbue weapons and armour created in this workshop with a +2 bonus instead of a +1. The items still cannot benefit from the "Blessing of the Forge" feature.

At 18th Level: There are few on the Material Plane who can match your skill at a forge. Your work gains legendary status as you begin to unlock the deepest secrets of metalworking. You can now imbue your weapons and armour with a +3 bonus to AC or attack/damage rolls (depending on the item). Items created in this workshop can now also benefit from the "Blessing of the Forge" feature on top of their +3 bonus.

[JNAProductions]

Expanding the Channel Divinity seems fine to me.

The other improvements, though, are rather too much-do you really want to be able to get to AC 27? That'd be +4 Plate and a +3 Shield. And as written, you can give those armors and shields to the entire party too.

[RogueJK]

I like it from a flavor standpoint. But what's noticeably overpowered is the 24 hour duration invisible/intangible "safe room", available from Level 2 onward. Basically like a 24 hour duration Rope Trick, or an invisible and intangible Tiny Hut or Instant Fortress. I could easily see that being heavily abused. It basically means that the party would always have a safe haven, whenever/wherever they want, in which they can hide out for however long they want.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I mean... this is ridiculously overpowered.

Like, hilariously so. I like the idea, but the execution.... no. I'm sorry, but just no.

Compare this to literally any other 2nd level Channel Divinity and you can see this, even ignoring the scaling effects. Now, do I think that this could be a really cool Minor Artifact? Absolutely. But as a class feature, it's absolutely bonkers.

I'm not even going to start with the "absolutely safe place to rest at 2nd level" and "can technically procure any (raw) material at-cost, including expensive spell components to an extent, like diamonds. Technically mithral and adamantine armors count as magical in this edition, by the way, so that's a weird little interaction.

Permanently creating magical arms and armor at 6th level is more than a little crazy, especially when you get into the stacking of +2/+3. And that's not counting letting you get a +4 weapon/armor at 18th level (I know, that level is borked anyways, it's the principle of the thing).

[JNAProductions]

I didn't think of the ability to use it as a resting spot. I don't think the OP did either-but it's definitely there.

[Rhocian Xothara]

Expanding the Channel Divinity seems fine to me.

The other improvements, though, are rather too much-do you really want to be able to get to AC 27? That'd be +4 Plate and a +3 Shield. And as written, you can give those armors and shields to the entire party too.

AC28. Forge Clerics get their 'Soul of the Forge' feature at 6th level that gives them a +1 to AC when wearing Heavy Armour. So an 18th-level Forge Cleric can wear Heavy Armour with a +5 AC bonus.

Personally, I think that's fine. 18th-level characters are *devastatingly* strong and true masters of their arts. It makes sense for them to craft armour that frankly nobody else can.

Also: Saving throws are still a thing that exist.


Compare this to literally any other 2nd level Channel Divinity and you can see this, even ignoring the scaling effects. Now, do I think that this could be a really cool Minor Artifact? Absolutely. But as a class feature, it's absolutely bonkers.


I've used the Artificer's 2nd-level feature as a guide, and "Replicate Magic Item" is to my mind on par with this. Instant transformation of mundane objects free of charge into common/uncommon magic items, scaling to rare items at higher levels.

Granted, +3 weapons/armor are more like Very Rare/Legendary items, but they won't get them until 18th level anyway.


I'm not even going to start with the "absolutely safe place to rest at 2nd level" and "can technically procure any (raw) material at-cost, including expensive spell components to an extent, like diamonds. Technically mithral and adamantine armors count as magical in this edition, by the way, so that's a weird little interaction.

In fairness, that's no different to component pouches. 100GP Diamond components can be yanked from a component pouch for cost, as RAW, so I don't know why it's an issue. Gold is still a resource.

Mithral and Adamantine are weird. They count as magical, yet are specifically metals in the D&D multiverse. The ruling has always seemed at odds with the logic of the matter, so the ruling on this Channel Divinity is my view as a DM.

Much in the way that 'Masterwork' items are lored as just high-quality gear, yet count as magical purely because of the bonus applied to them. *shrug*.

As for the "Safe room" aspect: I didn't think of that, but I'm not sure it's an issue. Sure, it means characters get to Long Rest in the middle of a megadungeon, but time still passes normally. If the occupants of the dungeon are aware of a break-in, the 24-hour saferoom gives the baddies 24 hours to prepare, too.

[Unoriginal]

What is unrealistic about a smith letting a literal miraculous chosen one of a smithing deity use their forge?

Aside from how literal miraculous chosen ones don't exist in reality, that is.

[TriciaOso]

In addition to all the other ways this is overpowered, this also functions as a bag of holding/extradimensional vault, which MMM can't do. This is more like the Demiplane spell, an EIGHTH level spell. Only better.

[Gignere]

Your biggest problem is using the artificers replicate magic items as a baseline. But neglecting to adjust for the fact that making magic items is part of the class features to balance them with other classes. It’s why they are a 1/2 caster and not a full caster.

You giving a full caster with level 9 spells something comparable would make it overpowered.

I mean maybe make it into a divine alchemist and 1/2 caster if this feature is that important.

[MrStabby]

This seems to steal the artificer's thunder more than a little. I mean I get that both feel like they should be able to create items, but for one class it is a major ability and a source of a decent fraction of their power; for the other is is a relatively minor fraction of their power because of being a full on cleric as well as a forger of trinkets.

[Valmark]

Agreed on this stepping on the Artificer's toes too much and also being too strong, but I'd also add that it feels a bit... Boring.

Trading immunity to fire damage, bonus fire damage to attacks and resistance to physical damage for the ability to make +3 equipment feels bland in addition to overpowered.

The Forge Channel Divinity is really cool but it needs to be toned down a lot.

The default Forge Cleric is fine as is, but even if it wasn't I don't think this should be the way to fix it- give cool and flavorful abilities.

[Greywander]

Some thoughts:

The benefits of the workshop should extend to any artisan's tool with which you're proficient. This allows for less conventional Forge cleric concepts, like a tinkerer or jeweler, as well as opening up the subclass to be applicable to other character concepts like a weaver or alchemist.
Either (a) no one but the cleric can enter the workshop, or (b) anyone can enter the workshop, including enemies.
The workshop entrance should require a minute to summon, so that it can't be summoned during combat.
The workshop entrance can be attacked and destroyed, in which case you and anything items inside are ejected.
As with MMM, nothing should be allowed to remain inside when you leave. This prevents you from using it as a storage space.
Alternatively, instead of summoning a portal to a separate dimension, you could fill an empty space with workshop gear, so that you're still physically present in the Material Plane.

Any reason this should be a Channel Divinity? I don't see a problem with this being at-will except for being able to move the portal around. And if you're worried about that, just make it a once per long rest feature.

Another thing I thought of is that instead of simply being able to craft an item in X time, or getting special upgrades as you level up, perhaps instead of those the workshop would have a number of spiritual servants assisting you equal to your proficiency bonus. So at 2nd level, you can essentially craft at 3x speed because you have two helpers, and by 17th level you're crafting at 7x speed thanks to 6 helpers.

As for materials, I think it would be neat to link it to the idea that worshipers at the temple to your god are offering up materials, and these are what you have access to. Even out in the middle of nowhere, you can dump gold into a box and it will spit out the materials you need, and a worshiper at some temple somewhere will see their offering vanish and be replaced with coin, a blessing given to them as gratitude for their offering. The reason you can't get certain materials is because those aren't offered as often, and when they are another cleric will generally snatch them up and build something with them. This opens up the possibility for the DM to grant access to specific materials under special circumstances, e.g. you might find you have access to silver when you just happen to be dealing with a werewolf infestation (and your god knows this, which is why they've given you first access to any silver offerings).

[MrStabby]

Agreed on this stepping on the Artificer's toes too much and also being too strong, but I'd also add that it feels a bit... Boring.

Trading immunity to fire damage, bonus fire damage to attacks and resistance to physical damage for the ability to make +3 equipment feels bland in addition to overpowered.

The Forge Channel Divinity is really cool but it needs to be toned down a lot.

The default Forge Cleric is fine as is, but even if it wasn't I don't think this should be the way to fix it- give cool and flavorful abilities.

I agree. I think that the better fix might be to take the artificer and to clericify it. Take the spell list and domain list for your prefered subclass and toss them out in favour of the cleric list+forge domain list.

Or... make force cleric a subclass of Artificer.

Same spell list as above.

3rd level: Fire resistance, +1 to AC when armoured, and the cleric's two channel divinity options, Heavy Armour Proficiency

5th level: extra attack

9th level: channel divinity twice per rest, Divine Strike (d8)

15th Level: Channel divinity 3x per rest, divine strike (2d8), fire immunity, BPS resisance while heavy armoured.

Yeah, there are some powerful high level abilities a bit sooner but given the way spells scale this seems a fair trade.

[da newt]

I'd be just fine with this if you just change it to the workshop forge and all the tools etc appear where ever you are (no pocket dimension to hide in), and all crafting costs and time rules apply. If you changed these two things, it wouldn't be OP.

You might want to change the lvls to match magic item rarity rather than just +X, to better match other costs / times / level gates / etc.

Want to craft a very rare +2 armor - no problem 6 months, 20,000 gp, and the special ingredient and you've done it!

For me, the true value of a forge cleric ought to be the ability to do things like take a magic dagger and make it into a magic spear for the PAM in the party (at an appropriate cost of time / coin), take a magic great sword and make it a long sword for the sword and board dueling PC, make a magic long sword into a rapier, etc.

[Jophiel]

Seems like you could get around the rest issue by saying that the noise and the bustling servants prevent anyone from getting the benefits of a long rest. Or even a short rest of you wanted to go that far. You could still hide out there, but not recharge your abilities.

[ff7hero]

In fairness, that's no different to component pouches. 100GP Diamond components can be yanked from a component pouch for cost, as RAW, so I don't know why it's an issue. Gold is still a resource.

Do you have a citation for this? I've had multiple casters with piles of gold struggle to get components because the DM was limiting what was available on the market.

[Cikomyr2]

Just one thing. I'd say a smith should be delighted to have a Priests of the Forge come and sanctify his workshop.

[FrancisBean]

...I'd love to chat to an actual blacksmith and ask them "if you could design your dream workshop, what would you have in it?"
I sent you a PM, but you may not have seen it. I'm a working blacksmith, bladesmith and jeweler. Right now I'm loitering on the forum while a baker's dozen of blades in progress temper in the oven for an hour, then it's bedtime. :smallwink:

Whether my background is any use to you in designing your forge cleric ideas, I think you've inspired me to start cobbling together a write-up on "Bladesmithing for DM's." The reality, the medieval myths, and the modern misconceptions all rolled into one document. I think there should be some interest. Thank you for that idea!

[Eriol]

Whether my background is any use to you in designing your forge cleric ideas, I think you've inspired me to start cobbling together a write-up on "Bladesmithing for DM's." The reality, the medieval myths, and the modern misconceptions all rolled into one document. I think there should be some interest. Thank you for that idea!
Also please address any myths (or realities) the show "Forged in Fire" has caused in nerd subculture.

I'm interested in such a handbook!

[FrancisBean]

Also please address any myths (or realities) the show "Forged in Fire" has caused in nerd subculture.
I don't want to derail this thread, so this is the only thing I've got to say about the show: I don't watch it. I have too many friends who have been on it, and the show is a little too painful. Let's just say that it's reality TV and leave it at that.

[stoutstien]

I sent you a PM, but you may not have seen it. I'm a working blacksmith, bladesmith and jeweler. Right now I'm loitering on the forum while a baker's dozen of blades in progress temper in the oven for an hour, then it's bedtime. :smallwink:

Whether my background is any use to you in designing your forge cleric ideas, I think you've inspired me to start cobbling together a write-up on "Bladesmithing for DM's." The reality, the medieval myths, and the modern misconceptions all rolled into one document. I think there should be some interest. Thank you for that idea!

Good luck lol. Smiths are a superstitious bunch so trying to find that dived of real vs faith is an lofty goal. I still get flack for using a temp gun when I work. Partially because I'm colour blind and partially because I like dealing with known values.

Would be a fun project to see what DND forging could look like.

[Reach Weapon]

What is unrealistic about a smith letting a literal miraculous chosen one of a smithing deity use their forge

Just one thing. I'd say a smith should be delighted to have a Priests of the Forge come and sanctify his workshop.
I might improve that with a ritual spell, perhaps:

Casting Time: 1 Hour (can be extended, as below)
Range: Touch
Components: S,M (pinch of coal dust, 2 cp of metal shavings per hour, which the spell consumes)

You invoke divine blessings as you work as a guest in a forge. When you cast this spell, you confer a +1 bonus to all forging checks made by the hosts in the forge where you worked. This blessing lasts for one day for each hour worked. If there are effects still active when the spell is cast again, duration is recalculated from the start of the original casting as if it had been a single casting of total hours worked at the caster's current level.

This spell improves with class levels associated with a forging deity, with days turning to weeks at 5th level, the bonus improving to +2 at 11th, and weeks turning to months at 17th.

For clerics of the forge domain, this spell is automatically prepared and does not count against known spells.

Spell lists: Cleric

[Kane0]

I would let the channel divinity expand your smiths' tools into an outdoor forge/workshop for up to prof bonus hours per use, with the restriction that you need to have the 10' or 15' radius space available to do so.
Edit: maaaaybe with an unseen servant assistant



Whether my background is any use to you in designing your forge cleric ideas, I think you've inspired me to start cobbling together a write-up on "Bladesmithing for DM's." The reality, the medieval myths, and the modern misconceptions all rolled into one document. I think there should be some interest. Thank you for that idea!

I'd be interested in reading that