Devils

[Gydian]

Some fiends are specifically labeled [devil] while others are not labeled. Some fiends have infernal listed on their languages.

Are these fiends, Rakshasa, or Eater-of-Hope, for example devils or something else?

Also Hellhounds are another question.

[ftafp]

Some fiends are specifically labeled [devil] while others are not labeled. Some fiends have infernal listed on their languages.

Are these fiends, Rakshasa, or Eater-of-Hope, for example devils or something else?

Also Hellhounds are another question.

If it says its a devil it's a devil. If it says it's a demon it's a demon. If it says neither it's neither. 5e's pretty kind of clear about that

[Rentirith]

To expand upon the context of this subject, even though a fiend such as a rakshasa might naturally live in one of the nine hells, they can exist outside the hierarchy of the devils. Nightmares, hellhounds and succubi/incubi are similar. In many dnd worlds the planes are not limited to having one type of occupant, similar to the prime material. They each have their own unique ecologies, so it's perfectly understandable for them to have various creature types apart from the archetypical.

[Naanomi]

Being a Devil means you are tied to the plane of Baator on a metaphysical level. Devils can live comfortably in... Even be born in... Acheron or Gehenna (and more rarely elsewhere), but by their nature they are creatures of Baator... Even those that are not Baatezu (or ancient Baatorians or whatever). Same with Demons and the Abyss.

[Unoriginal]

Being a Devil means you are tied to the plane of Baator on a metaphysical level. Devils can live comfortably in... Even be born in... Acheron or Gehenna (and more rarely elsewhere), but by their nature they are creatures of Baator... Even those that are not Baatezu (or ancient Baatorians or whatever). Same with Demons and the Abyss.

Strictly speaking, in 5e most of the Devils are "born" in Avernus, as it is the fate of most lawful evil souls to land into the Styx and emerge as Lemures.

An Archdevil can turn a soul into a Devil pretty much anywhere, including the Material Plane, but it's much rarer.

[PattThe]

Rakshasa of all kinds can be found across any plane for all sorts of reasons with all sorts of animal forms and they are not all tigers nor all devils in regards to having a home plane there.
Succubi were sculpted by the Queen of Chaos from the Abyss as per the Obyrith flesh-shapers. They may go anywhere in the multiverse and may consort heavily with devils but they are demons- just not as stuck-in with the Abyss as classic type I-V demons. Similar story with Shadow Demons- AJP just uploaded a new video on them yesterday.

Devils increase their population by contracts, the soul trade, and by controlling the floods of nupperbios and lemures.
Also beings like Graz'zt with their ancestry and progeny really make a lot of demons quite devilish.. it can get a bit screwey.

Just know this about devils tho. The planet of Baator had inhabitants before the angels descended onto the front-lines of the countless worlds being attacked by the Abyss. Angels resorted to cosmic war crimes in order to fight the Abyss into it's own corner of the multiverse, and Asmodeus lawyered his way into getting to use the recovered realm of Baator as a plane of punishment purely under his control.
Also the Kython chain devils have lots of neat lore..

[Millstone85]

Succubi were sculpted by the Queen of Chaos from the Abyss as per the Obyrith flesh-shapers. They may go anywhere in the multiverse and may consort heavily with devils but they are demons- just not as stuck-in with the Abyss as classic type I-V demons.In 5e, succubi/incubi have neither the devil nor the demon tag. They are also typically neutral evil. I have no strong opinion on this matter.


Just know this about devils tho. The planet of Baator had inhabitants before the angels descended onto the front-lines of the countless worlds being attacked by the Abyss. Angels resorted to cosmic war crimes in order to fight the Abyss into it's own corner of the multiverse, and Asmodeus lawyered his way into getting to use the recovered realm of Baator as a plane of punishment purely under his control.That would my preferred take on the transition from ancient Baatorians to modern Baatezu, yes. It is a shame that MToF changed the lore of the nupperibos, so that they are now what becomes of lemures so devoid of ambition that they actually step down in the infernal hierarchy. It was much more interesting when nupperibos were to ancient Baatorians what lemures are to modern Baatezu, making it important to stop them from transforming.

[Gurgeh]

In 5e, succubi/incubi have neither the devil nor the demon tag. They are also typically neutral evil. I have no strong opinion on this matter.
They've been ping-ponged around the evil cosmology a lot over the years. From memory, they were Baatezu in 4e and Tanar'ri in 3.5.

[Naanomi]

Just know this about devils tho. The planet of Baator had inhabitants before the angels descended onto the front-lines of the countless worlds being attacked by the Abyss. Angels resorted to cosmic war crimes in order to fight the Abyss into it's own corner of the multiverse, and Asmodeus lawyered his way into getting to use the recovered realm of Baator as a plane of punishment purely under his control.
Plane not planet

And probably not Angels... They are most often spelled out as beings of Law, Archons or perhaps Aphanacts

[PattThe]

Plane not planet

And probably not Angels... They are most often spelled out as beings of Law, Archons or perhaps Aphanacts

Yeah not angels, but beings of law. Goodness almost seems like an after-thought in cosmic order put in play after evil established itself. Well, after Obyrith evil establishes itself. Makes me wonder what all of our natively Neutral Evil forces like the Baernoloth were doing before the arrival of the Obyrith..

[Unoriginal]

Rakshasa of all kinds can be found across any plane for all sorts of reasons with all sorts of animal forms and they are not all tigers nor all devils in regards to having a home plane there.

Not in 5e. In 5e all the Rakshasa are linked to the Nine Hells.



Succubi were sculpted by the Queen of Chaos from the Abyss as per the Obyrith flesh-shapers.

In 5e they're originally from Hades.



Just know this about devils tho. The planet of Baator had inhabitants before the angels descended onto the front-lines of the countless worlds being attacked by the Abyss. Angels resorted to cosmic war crimes in order to fight the Abyss into it's own corner of the multiverse, and Asmodeus lawyered his way into getting to use the recovered realm of Baator as a plane of punishment purely under his control.
Also the Kython chain devils have lots of neat lore..

That's not the 5e lore on the question.


Yeah not angels, but beings of law. Goodness almost seems like an after-thought in cosmic order put in play after evil established itself. Well, after Obyrith evil establishes itself. Makes me wonder what all of our natively Neutral Evil forces like the Baernoloth were doing before the arrival of the Obyrith..

This is a good reason why I prefer the 5e cosmology.

That the whole "supposedly good deities approved the eternal torture of souls to scare mortals" of 4e is no longer canon makes me immensely happy.


so that they are now what becomes of lemures so devoid of ambition that they actually step down in the infernal hierarchy. It w

Important to note that the "they're a step down from lemures" opinion is an in-character one from Mordenkainen, who has his own reasons to consider lacking ambition and desire to act to be a worse place in Hell than being barely sapient sludge.

Strictly speaking there is no reason that a Nupperibos can't get a promotion to an higher rank.

[Millstone85]

Goodness almost seems like an after-thought in cosmic order put in play after evil established itself.My headcanon is that Good is indeed the youngest of the base alignments.

First there was Chaos, from which emerged Law, followed by a conflict that shaped Evil. It is only after Law's overall victory, and in an effort to appease the remaining Chaos, that Good was called forth.


Important to note that the "they're a step down from lemures" opinion is an in-character one from Mordenkainen, who has his own reasons to consider lacking ambition and desire to act to be a worse place in Hell than being barely sapient sludge.

Strictly speaking there is no reason that a Nupperibos can't get a promotion to an higher rank.This in-character note is supported by the main text on nupperibos.
No soul is turned away from the Nine Hells, but the truly worthless--those whose evil acts in life arose from carelessness and sloth more than anything else--are suitable only to become nupperibos.

[Unoriginal]

My headcanon is that Good is indeed the youngest of the base alignments.

First there was Chaos, from which emerged Law, followed by a conflict that shaped Evil. It is only after Law's overall victory, and in an effort to appease the remaining Chaos, that Good was called forth.

Not my place to criticize your headcanon, but personally I find that idea extremely depressing.



This in-character note is supported by the main text on nupperibos.

Not wrong, although the implication I got is that they're still one rank above Lemures, while Mordenkainen think becoming a Nupperibo is a downgrade.

[Millstone85]

Not my place to criticize your headcanon, but personally I find that idea extremely depressing.On the one hand, there is the trope that the most ancient supernatural is also the most powerful, or even the most meaningful. So if you have Elder Evils and Young Goods, that can indeed paint a dark picture.

On the other hand, what is depressing to me is a cosmic origin story where everything starts swell only to keep getting worse and worse. Angels fall and paradises are lost as corruption spreads. Doing the opposite of that, by having celestials be the new kids on the block, should in my opinion give an uplifting sense of betterment.

[Unoriginal]

On the one hand, there is the trope that the most ancient supernatural is also the most powerful, or even the most meaningful. So if you have Elder Evils and Young Goods, that can indeed paint a dark picture.

On the other hand, what is depressing to me is a cosmic origin story where everything starts swell only to keep getting worse and worse. Angels fall and paradises are lost as corruption spreads. Doing the opposite of that, by having celestials be the new kids on the block, should in my opinion give an uplifting sense of betterment.

I mean yes, "there was Good, then everything went to manure and Evil emerged" is just as depressing, but I don't consider "Evil was created when Law and Chaos fought, and then they created Good to placate the losers of the conflict" to be particularly uplifting.

My headcanon is that all nine alignments appeared at the same time, but the lawful ones and the chaotic ones went at war. As it went on the good ones and the neutral ones agreed on a peaceful resolution, so the Demons realized they'd be screwed if they kept attacking anyone but the Devils, aka the one part of the lawful side who wouldn't be defended by the others due to being a) evil b) not shy about how they would conquer the cosmos if given the chance.

[Naanomi]

The 2e lore is that all 4 (5 maybe) alignments appeared more or less at the same time, though that was well after significant intelligent life existed in the ethereal, astral, inner planes... And the aboleth and maybe some of their creations in the Prime. Each sort of formed with some basic Outsiders already present, which were ignorant of each other's existence.

It was Evil's Baernoloth that were the most active in the beginning (that we know about), Law and Chaos didn't get stirred up until stuff in the Inner Planes with the Vaati got things going.

(How much of this transfered to 5e, is of course, unknown and subject to change with new material)

[Demonslayer666]

Is there a good 5th edition source for reading up on extraplanar lore?

[Tvtyrant]

On the one hand, there is the trope that the most ancient supernatural is also the most powerful, or even the most meaningful. So if you have Elder Evils and Young Goods, that can indeed paint a dark picture.

On the other hand, what is depressing to me is a cosmic origin story where everything starts swell only to keep getting worse and worse. Angels fall and paradises are lost as corruption spreads. Doing the opposite of that, by having celestials be the new kids on the block, should in my opinion give an uplifting sense of betterment.

I actually like it a lot. "In the beginning there was ancient and unknowable evil. And then Good slapped it around until it hid in a box and sulked." Why are there so many Elder Evils hiding in statues and threatening but a single world? Because they lost the big game already, getting out just means killing some people before the angel flights smack them down again.

[Millstone85]

I mean yes, "there was Good, then everything went to manure and Evil emerged" is just as depressing, but I don't consider "Evil was created when Law and Chaos fought, and then they created Good to placate the losers of the conflict" to be particularly uplifting.What if, instead, Law and Chaos grew fearful of the Evil their conflict created, and jointly created Good to counterbalance it?


The 2e lore is that all 4 (5 maybe) alignments appeared more or less at the same time, though that was well after significant intelligent life existed in the ethereal, astral, inner planes...I guess that goes with the Outer Planes being exclusively a manifestation of beliefs.


Is there a good 5th edition source for reading up on extraplanar lore?I would say no. That's why I really wish they made Shemeshka's Guide to the Planes or something.


I actually like it a lot. "In the beginning there was ancient and unknowable evil. And then Good slapped it around until it hid in a box and sulked."Thank you, but I didn't say Evil was left that much weakened.

[Tvtyrant]

What if, instead, Law and Chaos grew fearful of the Evil their conflict created, and jointly created Good to counterbalance it?

I guess that goes with the Outer Planes being exclusively a manifestation of beliefs.

I would say no. That's why I really wish they made Shemeshka's Guide to the Planes or something.

Thank you, but I didn't say Evil was left that much weakened.

Yeah I know, but if all of the EE are bound into sealed evil in a can it implies good did a pretty good job beating them down.

[Demonslayer666]

...

I would say no. That's why I really wish they made Shemeshka's Guide to the Planes or something.

...

How about good non-5th edition sources? Hoping for a single, good source. Manual of the Planes perhaps?

[PattThe]

My headcanon is that Good is indeed the youngest of the base alignments.

First there was Chaos, from which emerged Law, followed by a conflict that shaped Evil. It is only after Law's overall victory, and in an effort to appease the remaining Chaos, that Good was called forth.

This doesn't leave much room for the Obyriths. Where do you see Law struggling with Chaos in the pre-hell pre-abyss multiverse in the lore? From what I recall Primus existed, as did the chaos that existed alongside him, and the gods such as Tharizdun. Primus devised an item and cast it into the chaos, and possibly with Ygorl's backwards influence that began to spawn the Slaad. Afterwards it seems like Order has a pretty tight hold on the cosmos alongside the gods, with the chaotic spirits of Limbo being bound into useless monster forms that can be mind-controlled indefinitely. Where is there room there for chaos to spawn evil in its fight against order? The abyss only exists post-Obyrith invasion. Hades could have certainly existed in the ancient cosmos pre-obyrith, but I don't see how Order and Chaos create Baernoloths.

[Millstone85]

How about good non-5th edition sources? Hoping for a single, good source. Manual of the Planes perhaps?Yes, the 1e MotP should be a good source of 1e planar lore, as should the 3e MotP regarding 3e lore (or was it already 3.5?) and the 4e MotP regarding 4e lore.


Where do you see Law struggling with Chaos in the pre-hell pre-abyss multiverse in the lore? From what I recall Primus existed, as did the chaos that existed alongside him, and the gods such as Tharizdun. Primus devised an item and cast it into the chaos, and possibly with Ygorl's backwards influence that began to spawn the Slaad. Afterwards it seems like Order has a pretty tight hold on the cosmos alongside the gods, with the chaotic spirits of Limbo being bound into useless monster forms that can be mind-controlled indefinitely.Indeed, that's where the fight would take place. In the primordial chaos that existed before the "spawning stoned" Limbo.


This doesn't leave much room for the Obyriths. [...] Where is there room there for chaos to spawn evil in its fight against order? The abyss only exists post-Obyrith invasion. Hades could have certainly existed in the ancient cosmos pre-obyrith, but I don't see how Order and Chaos create Baernoloths.I have heard of the obyriths coming from another multiverse. I have also heard of the obyriths being created when the baernoloths tried to become pure evil by removing their chaotic aspects (and their lawful aspects, thus creating the ancient Baatorians). In both cases, it seems that the obyriths would predate the Abyss. Me, I would have the obyriths form in the primordial chaos as it goes all teeth against the growing influence of Primus.

[Naanomi]

This doesn't leave much room for the Obyriths. Where do you see Law struggling with Chaos in the pre-hell pre-abyss multiverse in the lore? From what I recall Primus existed, as did the chaos that existed alongside him, and the gods such as Tharizdun. Primus devised an item and cast it into the chaos, and possibly with Ygorl's backwards influence that began to spawn the Slaad. Afterwards it seems like Order has a pretty tight hold on the cosmos alongside the gods, with the chaotic spirits of Limbo being bound into useless monster forms that can be mind-controlled indefinitely. Where is there room there for chaos to spawn evil in its fight against order? The abyss only exists post-Obyrith invasion. Hades could have certainly existed in the ancient cosmos pre-obyrith, but I don't see how Order and Chaos create Baernoloths.
Most of the big events in Planar history happened *way* before the Gods appeared (though, to confuse things, a few beings that would later *become* Gods were bumping around)... they didn't appear until a good way into the War of Law and Chaos, which itself didn't begin until the Inner Planes were in an almost-modern configuration; the Outer Planes had formed (though not fully differentiated yet); the Prime was widely inhabited by Aboleth and their creations

Obyrinth invasion is 4E lore that... I don't see a lot of evidence carried over. In 3E, Obyrinths sprang out of the proto-Abyss as a side effect of the Baernoloth attempting to purify Evil. In 2E they were not named Obyrinth, but the beings that we now label as such were considered 'primordial' (IE: coming into existence when the Abyss itself did)

The Greater Cosmology gets confusing, since the Great Wheel is just one of infinite alternative Cosmologies... and stuff existed in the same 'space' as the Great Wheel before it came into existence. We have a (very small) number of Monsters over the editions with explicit origins from other Cosmologies, predating the Great Wheel, or tied to the Eldest beings who are implied to have created those Cosmologies