Soulknife - any experience

[J-H]

Has anyone played one and liked it? One of the two possibilities for a new campaign I'll be running soon involves a heavy psionic theme, so it might get picked.

Every time I read through it, all I see is a boring list of features:
-Does psychic damage but doesn't benefit from +weapons, so good for low magic and for enemies with resistances
-Limited telepathy
-Can do short distance teleports - kind of nice
-Minor boost to skills and occasionally turning misses into hits
-Can go invisible a few times per day at 13th.
-Save or stun a couple of times per SR at 17th level.

I mean, it's a decent package - rogues like stuns, invisibility, and teleportation, and have a strong chassis - but the actual core conceit of "Manifest a brain lightsaber" is barely there. The soulknife has zero incentive whatsoever to actually do melee, and benefits just as much from standing in the back throwing his blade repeatedly. It's an archery rogue, not a melee rogue.

I also feel like losing out on good magic weapons (+1-3 to hit & damage, elemental damage, etc.) is not a super effective trade-off.

So how does it look in actual play?

[Segev]

I agree that the soul knife itself is very disappointing.

I think the biggest features of it are the psi-bolstered knack and the psychic whispers: the former is a way to really make those important skill checks AMAZING (imagine tacking it on when you already have Advantage and Expertise), and the latter lets you do the scouting thing and report back to the party in real time.

[Evaar]

the actual core conceit of "Manifest a brain lightsaber" is barely there. The soulknife has zero incentive whatsoever to actually do melee, and benefits just as much from standing in the back throwing his blade repeatedly. It's an archery rogue, not a melee rogue.

This is correct. They made a class with the flavor of melee, then gave it no meaningful melee support. It actually pushes against being in melee because the benefit of being there is potential opportunity attacks, but the soulknife can't use the psychic blade to make opportunity attacks because it's a poorly written feature.

But played at range, it's reasonably powerful. They essentially have the Crossbow Expert feat for free and don't require ammunition. You do lose out on magic weapons, but just offer that player other things. One could argue that the inability to use a magic weapon is actually freeing, as it means you aren't obligated to do so as soon as you find one - instead you can utilize your attunement slots for more interesting items. And because you manifest your knife with the attack, your hands are free on turns when you decide you want to dig into your belt pouch and throw a Tangler Grenade or whatever instead of attacking.

In summary, it works and even has good potential. But it doesn't do what it should do based on flavor or description; reset expectations accordingly and the player should be happy with it.

[ATHATH]

We had a multiclassed one in our Tomb of Annihilation group, and they found that a dip into the subclass is very nice for grapplers.

Starting at 3rd level, you harbor a wellspring of psionic energy within yourself. This energy is represented by your Psionic Energy dice, which are each a d6. You have a number of these dice equal to twice your proficiency bonus,

Psi-Bolstered Knack. When your nonpsionic training fails you, your psionic power can help: if you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with which you have proficiency, you can roll one Psionic Energy die and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning failure into success. You expend the die only if the roll succeeds.
Emphasis mine. Like the Engineer's pistol's ammo reserve in TF2, your Psionic Energy dice are technically finite, but you'll still be able to basically just throw them onto every ability check you fail and have proficiency in to get an effective +3.5 to all ability checks you can fail and are proficient in, which is nothing to sniff at.



After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4, instead of 1d6.
It should be noted that this bonus action attack isn't restricted to being melee-only like normal dual-wielding is, nor does it disallow you from adding your ability score bonus to your bonus action attack's damage roll. If you're planning on throwing your psychic blades, this is basically half of the Crossbow Expert feat, except it uses a thrown weapon instead of a hand crossbow, so the attack from it qualifies for the damage bonus from the Thrown Weapon Fighting fighting style instead of the accuracy bonus from the Archery fighting style.

... Okay, when I put it that way, it doesn't sound so great, but hey, it still (sort of) saves you a feat!

[LudicSavant]

So how does it look in actual play?

Well, if people are actually following the rules (which are a disaster that needs to be errataed) then it looks like an absolute farce (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631165-I-wish-WotC-would-errata-the-Soulknife-(Rant)). But I suspect many DMs would houserule the hot mess. But at that point we're not talking about the Soulknife in the book anymore.

As written, it actually strongly encourages you against relying on your psychic blades in melee (as Evaar points out above). It's just... completely bizarre.

[Cheesegear]

So how does it look in actual play?

I've used it to great effect...As a hostile NPC.

None of its abilities lend itself to playing well as a PC. But it has all the hallmarks of being a really good NPC class.
- Can telepathically direct minions; You don't have to roleplay your commands, which means your players don't know what they're doing.
- Bonus Action; Misty Step-with-extra...Steps. Can teleport around tanks and shut down Caster-Concentration.
- Bless+ which means players' AC doesn't matter.

One thing I did come across...

Soulknife hits.
Caster uses Reaction to cast Shield.
Soulknife misses. Can the Soulknife use a Psi-Dice in response to a caster using Shield?

[Dork_Forge]

Has anyone played one and liked it? One of the two possibilities for a new campaign I'll be running soon involves a heavy psionic theme, so it might get picked.

Played a Tabaxi Soulknife (with Telekinetic to pump the psionics) and it was both incredibly fun and effective.


Every time I read through it, all I see is a boring list of features:
-Does psychic damage but doesn't benefit from +weapons, so good for low magic and for enemies with resistances

Magic weapons aren't assumed by design, but you don't even need them since the blades enable a bonus action attack with modifier to damage. The blades are very competitive damage wise in general and a leader in the Rogue class for a while. You can also enhance them with Dueling and Thrown Weapon which is a nice bunmp.



-Limited telepathy

This is more like a limited Rary's Telepathic Bond, it's time limitation is pretty irrelevant since the first use is free and psi dice are abundant for the Soulknife. Arguably better than most other telepathic features.


-Can do short distance teleports - kind of nice

It's nice, also not hindered by being a spell.


-Minor boost to skills and occasionally turning misses into hits

You only burn a psi dice if you actually turn it into a success, so this is a substantial boost to being able to reliably make checks. It's actually a really great ability to have ime


-Can go invisible a few times per day at 13th.

This is basically a better version of Invisibility: It doesn't require concentration, isn't a spell, and you don't lose it by attacking, only dealing damage. If you miss you're still invsible to try again unseen. Getting this for free once then Psi dice means you can use it pretty heavily


-Save or stun a couple of times per SR at 17th level.

A 1 minute stun with a DC based on your primary stat, by the time you get it you can choose to burn your Psi dice on it if you want, but with the potential of it lasting multiple rounds you could get a lot of mileage out of a single stun.


I mean, it's a decent package - rogues like stuns, invisibility, and teleportation, and have a strong chassis - but the actual core conceit of "Manifest a brain lightsaber" is barely there. The soulknife has zero incentive whatsoever to actually do melee, and benefits just as much from standing in the back throwing his blade repeatedly. It's an archery rogue, not a melee rogue.

Having the option of doing both is nice, it's really up to the player which is ideal. But I have to ask:

Why do you think it should be melee at all? The fluff doesn't suggest it, the typical trope of Rogueish characters with daggers often involes throwing them anyway (hence the wide spread frustration with throwing rules). They function great in melee, they function great at range, if you would rather be a melee Soulknife then just do it you won't be missing out on anything and I'd wager you'd have fun too.


I also feel like losing out on good magic weapons (+1-3 to hit & damage, elemental damage, etc.) is not a super effective trade-off.


I mean, this is presuming that there are those weapons and you wouldn't just get other items instead (either through party item division or DM tailoring), but getting a second attack with modifier is worth it to me:

+x to hit and damage vs an additional attack. You're going to have a better shot at sneak attack and do more damage overall with two attacks vs one with a +x weapon.

One thing on the whole opportunity attack thing:

I don't get why this is such a big deal, enemies should not be frequently provoking them, that's just stupid unless something like Dissonant Whispers is in play. If a DM wants to be a stickler for the rules then just work around it.

[Chad.e.clark]

Something that I've been noodling around has been a Battlemaster / Soul Knife split. Taking Thrown Weapon Fighting Style and Quick Toss manuever, you'd have a chance at a bonus action Sneak Attack on your turn (so long as there is a Sneak Attack eligible target within 60 ft). If successful, ready your Action to Attack at the start of the next combatants turn to have another chance of Sneak Attack. If Quick Toss misses, attack as normal. Similiar opportunity from Action Surging, Attack once, if sneak attack successful Action Surge to ready an Attack immediately after your turn. If first Attack unsuccessful, Action Surge to attack on your turn.

Psychic blades has Thrown and Finesse properties, so Quick Toss and Thrown Weapon mean using above strategy you can utilize a shield for bumping your AC while still benefiting from fighting at range (so long as one hand is empty, you are able to either burn a Quick Toss, Attack, or Ready an Attack.) You lose out on your reaction for Uncanny Dodge, and your Bonus Action is spoken for, so I don't think its a 100% always do this strategy, but essentially doubling up on Sneak Attack at range seams like it worth the Fighter 3 dip.

Also, with the telepathy ability, coordination with teammates in the midst of battle for sneak attack doesn't even crossover into metagaming. Set it up as an action at the beginningof the day and after that, sending a message requires no sction. "Hey, go get in that orcs face and I'll set up the kill for ya!"

[neonchameleon]

I agree that the soul knife itself is very disappointing.

I think the biggest features of it are the psi-bolstered knack and the psychic whispers: the former is a way to really make those important skill checks AMAZING (imagine tacking it on when you already have Advantage and Expertise), and the latter lets you do the scouting thing and report back to the party in real time.

Other than the "don't melee" issue it's not just fine but more than fine. The key thing to remember is that it's up against subclasses such as the Assassin, Thief, and Mastermind. With that baseline I don't see how it could both be balanced and not disappointing.

Is it more than competent as a psychic assassin/skill monkey? Yes. That psychic energy dice not being expended on a failure is amazing. And psychic attacks, teleportation, invisibility, and stuns are amazing for a psychic assassin. And I'd expect a psychic assassin to be more about range than melee.

To me it reads like one of the "Tasha's Specials"; if you look at the Genie Pact Warlock that's not a warlock where a Genie is your patron - it's playing an actual genie, bound to a lamp, using warlock mechanics. Likewise the Soulknife gives me a very nice psychic skill monkey using rogue mechanics even if the "Psychic Blades" are more of a mind blast (which honestly fits more psychics than specifically having blades does)

[Gignere]

+x to hit and damage vs an additional attack. You're going to have a better shot at sneak attack and do more damage overall with two attacks vs one with a +x weapon.

One thing on the whole opportunity attack thing:

I don't get why this is such a big deal, enemies should not be frequently provoking them, that's just stupid unless something like Dissonant Whispers is in play. If a DM wants to be a stickler for the rules then just work around it.

It’s a big deal because reaction / OAs are one of the ways to optimize rogue damage. Having two sneak attacks a round will blow any rogue builds unable to do this.

A very common way to do this is build with sentinel feat or like you said play with a caster with dissonant whispers or some ability to grant a reaction attack.

It is not stupid to want to plan/build for a fairly massive increase in DPR.

[Chronic]

Played a Tabaxi Soulknife (with Telekinetic to pump the psionics) and it was both incredibly fun and effective.



Magic weapons aren't assumed by design, but you don't even need them since the blades enable a bonus action attack with modifier to damage. The blades are very competitive damage wise in general and a leader in the Rogue class for a while. You can also enhance them with Dueling and Thrown Weapon which is a nice bunmp.




This is more like a limited Rary's Telepathic Bond, it's time limitation is pretty irrelevant since the first use is free and psi dice are abundant for the Soulknife. Arguably better than most other telepathic features.



It's nice, also not hindered by being a spell.



You only burn a psi dice if you actually turn it into a success, so this is a substantial boost to being able to reliably make checks. It's actually a really great ability to have ime



This is basically a better version of Invisibility: It doesn't require concentration, isn't a spell, and you don't lose it by attacking, only dealing damage. If you miss you're still invsible to try again unseen. Getting this for free once then Psi dice means you can use it pretty heavily



A 1 minute stun with a DC based on your primary stat, by the time you get it you can choose to burn your Psi dice on it if you want, but with the potential of it lasting multiple rounds you could get a lot of mileage out of a single stun.



Having the option of doing both is nice, it's really up to the player which is ideal. But I have to ask:

Why do you think it should be melee at all? The fluff doesn't suggest it, the typical trope of Rogueish characters with daggers often involes throwing them anyway (hence the wide spread frustration with throwing rules). They function great in melee, they function great at range, if you would rather be a melee Soulknife then just do it you won't be missing out on anything and I'd wager you'd have fun too.



I mean, this is presuming that there are those weapons and you wouldn't just get other items instead (either through party item division or DM tailoring), but getting a second attack with modifier is worth it to me:

+x to hit and damage vs an additional attack. You're going to have a better shot at sneak attack and do more damage overall with two attacks vs one with a +x weapon.

One thing on the whole opportunity attack thing:

I don't get why this is such a big deal, enemies should not be frequently provoking them, that's just stupid unless something like Dissonant Whispers is in play. If a DM wants to be a stickler for the rules then just work around it.

This is pretty much my opinion. You pretty much don't need anything to be effective.
For opportunity attacks, in my experience, you don't get them more than once every 3 turn. Ennemies aren't idiots. If you've sneak attack before, they are not gonna take the risk to be backstabbed without an excellent reason.
The great thing about this subclass is the efficiency, the fact that you spend the dice only if you succeed feels so damn good.
My only grip is that psychic dice pool from the soul knife and the psychic warrior aren't compatible.

[stoutstien]

It’s a big deal because reaction / OAs are one of the ways to optimize rogue damage. Having two sneak attacks a round will blow any rogue builds unable to do this.

A very common way to do this is build with sentinel feat or like you said play with a caster with dissonant whispers or some ability to grant a reaction attack.

It is not stupid to want to plan/build for a fairly massive increase in DPR.
Is it such a bad thing to have a subclass that isn't 100% synergistically lined up with the same boring feat combos that are basically false progression to begin with?
SK does a lot of stuff extremely well to the point who cares of it doesn't do the most damage. Leave damage for the players who still think it matters.

[Gignere]

Is it such a bad thing to have a subclass that isn't 100% synergistically lined up with the same boring feat combos that are basically false progression to begin with?
SK does a lot of stuff extremely well to the point who cares of it doesn't do the most damage. Leave damage for the players who still think it matters.

Didn’t say it was a bad thing I said it’s not stupid for players planning to optimize damage to be focused on OAs or other reaction attacks.

I don’t know what you mean by false progression. Increasing damage anywhere from 33% (getting one extra sneak attack every 3 turns) upwards to 100% (short fights where you get 2 sneak attacks for every turn). This is a very real increase in effectiveness, nothing false about it at all.

[stoutstien]

Didn’t say it was a bad thing I said it’s not stupid for players planning to optimize damage to be focused on OAs or other reaction attacks.

I don’t know what you mean by false progression. Increasing damage anywhere from 33% (getting one extra sneak attack every 3 turns) upwards to 100% (short fights where you get 2 sneak attacks for every turn). This is a very real increase in effectiveness, nothing false about it at all.

I would say 3/4 of DMs I've observed or played with use the race to zero as the primary focus of maintaining tension and the primary challenge. So guess what happens when the party starts dealing more damage and reduces that challenge?

[Gignere]

I would say 3/4 of DMs I've observed or played with use the race to zero as the primary focus of maintaining tension and the primary challenge. So guess what happens when the party starts dealing more damage and reduces that challenge?

Personally I would feel pretty good if the party was facing 4x deadly encounters and still rocking them.

I hate playing in groups where people don’t know their abilities and TPKing on medium encounters, or the DM is fudging dice all the time just to baby the party.

[Waazraath]

Afaic, both 'reaction attacks' and 'SCAG cantrips' are the two most obvious and easy way of upgrading damage for a Rogue. For builds and online DPR comparisons, they are musts. But while powerful, especially the reaction attacks are pretty ymmv how they turn out during actual play. A feat like sentinel or mage slayer gives a reaction attack that is quite situational, and without those you either need party members to grant you a reaction attack (not that common an ability) or a serious multiclass investment (e.g. 3 levels of BM or hunter ranger - which of course some with other benefits as well). Or you require specific magic items. Even a feat like Sentinel has quite an opportunity cost when taken before 10th level (unless custom race/vhuman of course), if you take it before maxing dex it costs +1 to hit and +1 to damage on every attack,

So you have situational, (heavy) opportunity costs, and/or optional rules you really can't depend on in a regular campaign.

In addition, not mentioned yet I think in this thread: a common way to keep your melee rogue a bit safe in melee is, among others, uncanny dodge. Which eats your reaction. Which competes with a reaction attack.

So while I almost always pick a kind of reaction attack at some point when making a build for fora like these, I don't think missing out on it is really that big a thing for a real game - and definitely not to argue the subclass is bad, failed, stupid or whatever. It depends on context how strong reaction attacks are exactly, if you do have that party that provides you regular opportunity attacks, yeah, you do miss out on a lot of damage. On the other hand, in that case just carry a short sword in your off hand and go to town. The only thing that's left at that point is that there is a bit of a missmatch between fluff and crunch.

[stoutstien]

Personally I would feel pretty good if the party was facing 4x deadly encounters and still rocking them.

I hate playing in groups where people don’t know their abilities and TPKing on medium encounters, or the DM is fudging dice all the time just to baby the party.
That's a flaw with the CR system as a whole. How deadly an individual encounter is mostly irrelevant without the context of the rest of the encounters surrounding it and the players ability to successfully recognize and address them. Not to mention it takes a ton of experience to figure out what baseline the whole system is using from the get go. Before I go down that rabbit hole I'm going to digress.

I think the problem is that people look at this subclass and think it should be a close quarter melee focused option even though a better comparison would be a crossbow expert midfield option which is already decided that the chance of an extra sneak attack isn't worth the risk. Best part is that due to they lack of feat needs as baseline is that using reaction attacks and SA by simply drawing a normal weapon.

[Gignere]

Afaic, both 'reaction attacks' and 'SCAG cantrips' are the two most obvious and easy way of upgrading damage for a Rogue. For builds and online DPR comparisons, they are musts. But while powerful, especially the reaction attacks are pretty ymmv how they turn out during actual play. A feat like sentinel or mage slayer gives a reaction attack that is quite situational, and without those you either need party members to grant you a reaction attack (not that common an ability) or a serious multiclass investment (e.g. 3 levels of BM or hunter ranger - which of course some with other benefits as well). Or you require specific magic items. Even a feat like Sentinel has quite an opportunity cost when taken before 10th level (unless custom race/vhuman of course), if you take it before maxing dex it costs +1 to hit and +1 to damage on every attack,

Pretty sure having a second opportunity for sneak attack is worth more than the +1 to hit and damage. Granted you are correct typically I don’t pick sentinel until at least level 8, certainly by level 10.

As for the uncanny dodge versus reaction attacks I don’t even see them as competing, especially when combined with sentinel. The monster is either hitting you and not triggering sentinel or it’s hitting your buddy and triggering sentinel.

If it’s splitting it’s multi attack there are very few monsters that have two + very damaging attacks that would require you to save your uncanny dodge for.

[Dork_Forge]

It’s a big deal because reaction / OAs are one of the ways to optimize rogue damage. Having two sneak attacks a round will blow any rogue builds unable to do this.

A very common way to do this is build with sentinel feat or like you said play with a caster with dissonant whispers or some ability to grant a reaction attack.

It is not stupid to want to plan/build for a fairly massive increase in DPR.


Pretty sure having a second opportunity for sneak attack is worth more than the +1 to hit and damage. Granted you are correct typically I don’t pick sentinel until at least level 8, certainly by level 10.

As for the uncanny dodge versus reaction attacks I don’t even see them as competing, especially when combined with sentinel. The monster is either hitting you and not triggering sentinel or it’s hitting your buddy and triggering sentinel.

If it’s splitting it’s multi attack there are very few monsters that have two + very damaging attacks that would require you to save your uncanny dodge for.

Not being able to RAW extort every possible amount of damage is not a bad thing, nor is it really that much difference, you're not 'blowing' them out of the water.

IF you sneak on a reaction once every 3 turns (we'll come back to this) then we'll look at level 8 with a Rapier:

OA: 1d8+4+4d6= 22.5

Three turns of bonus attacks (no Sneak) = 3d6+15 = 25.5

So... it's actually less damage? It just barely edges ahead on level 9 with an extra Sneak die, but this isn't even taking getting Sneak off into account. The Soulknife is going to be getting Sneak Attack more reliably since they have more attacks to try and land it. The Rogue can TWF, but that has it's own opportunity cost on a Rogue losing their bonus action.

This is of course assuming that you're comparing the Soulknife to a melee Rogue, in which case that Rogue is going to get smacked around. The way you type seems to assume a single creature to deal with, which even if it is the case (which I assume it often won't be) is going to hurt you. A Rogue won't have particularly good AC or HP for the most part unless you're building to compensate for that, which you likely aren't if you took Sentinel.

So you're going to be taking damage regularly without the only defense against that a Rogue has.

Until level 9 the Soulknife is winning in damage and durability, if you actually throw a feat on there (Fighting Initiate: Dueling) then the Soulknife will be winning in damage well into Tier 3.

It isn't a big deal and even if you want to optimise for damage grabbing Sentinel or whatever isn't a clear winner, as shown above. The real kicker here?

People are complaing about RAW not letting you do this, if this is actually a problem to you and your DM won't work with you. Carry. A. Dagger.

RAW there's nothing stopping you carring a dagger and passing it between your hands to get your bonus attack as normal whilst still getting OAs. Damage is utterly king to you then carry a Rapier and move that around, if magic weapons are prevalent enough that the Soulknife is 'missing out' then they can probably have one to do this with instead of a mundane weapon too.


OAs are not a problem, it's an incredibly competitive subclass for damage and utility.

[Sorinth]

I believe if you take the Thrown Weapon Fighting style you can can make opportunity attacks that have sneak attacks. Since Thrown Weapon Fighting allows you to draw a weapon with the Thrown property as part of the attack (Don't actually have to throw it) you can draw a dagger as part the opportunity attack and make a melee attack with it.

[Gignere]

Not being able to RAW extort every possible amount of damage is not a bad thing, nor is it really that much difference, you're not 'blowing' them out of the water.

IF you sneak on a reaction once every 3 turns (we'll come back to this) then we'll look at level 8 with a Rapier:

OA: 1d8+4+4d6= 22.5

Three turns of bonus attacks (no Sneak) = 3d6+15 = 25.5

So... it's actually less damage? It just barely edges ahead on level 9 with an extra Sneak die, but this isn't even taking getting Sneak off into account. The Soulknife is going to be getting Sneak Attack more reliably since they have more attacks to try and land it. The Rogue can TWF, but that has it's own opportunity cost on a Rogue losing their bonus action.

This is of course assuming that you're comparing the Soulknife to a melee Rogue, in which case that Rogue is going to get smacked around. The way you type seems to assume a single creature to deal with, which even if it is the case (which I assume it often won't be) is going to hurt you. A Rogue won't have particularly good AC or HP for the most part unless you're building to compensate for that, which you likely aren't if you took Sentinel.

So you're going to be taking damage regularly without the only defense against that a Rogue has.

Until level 9 the Soulknife is winning in damage and durability, if you actually throw a feat on there (Fighting Initiate: Dueling) then the Soulknife will be winning in damage well into Tier 3.

It isn't a big deal and even if you want to optimise for damage grabbing Sentinel or whatever isn't a clear winner, as shown above. The real kicker here?

People are complaing about RAW not letting you do this, if this is actually a problem to you and your DM won't work with you. Carry. A. Dagger.

RAW there's nothing stopping you carring a dagger and passing it between your hands to get your bonus attack as normal whilst still getting OAs. Damage is utterly king to you then carry a Rapier and move that around, if magic weapons are prevalent enough that the Soulknife is 'missing out' then they can probably have one to do this with instead of a mundane weapon too.


OAs are not a problem, it's an incredibly competitive subclass for damage and utility.

No you are just leaving the bonus action of the rogue out of the equation. If I was optimizing DPR I’d be using my BA to steady aim/hide. So probability of landing a sneak is equal to your bonus action 2 attacks. This doesn’t even take into account that the non soul knife rogue is likely sporting a +1 weapon if not better.

At higher levels the second sneak attack is going to really out scale the soul knife by quite a bit.

Also I don’t know why people think rogues are squishie this edition.

I’ve played an AT as tank and didn’t even drop once. Granted it was an AT / BS but rogues are surprising hardy in actual play this edition. Max dex with magical studded leather or mage armor and you’re easily sporting a 18 AC pretty much the same as plate armor. If and when you get crit boom uncanny dodge.

Even as DM I had easier time bursting down the Paladin, than the rogue.

[LudicSavant]

Nothing stops a Soulknife from making opportunity attacks... they just need to carry around a normal weapon to do it, which they draw and drop in a completely ridiculous manner because the rules are completely ridiculous.

[Dork_Forge]

No you are just leaving the bonus action of the rogue out of the equation. If I was optimizing DPR I’d be using my BA to steady aim/hide. So probability of landing a sneak is equal to your bonus action 2 attacks. This doesn’t even take into account that the non soul knife rogue is likely sporting a +1 weapon if not better.

Advantage is not the same as two attacks, because those two attacks can still benefit from advantage from various sources.

You're also assuming that a magical finesse weapon will fall at the other Rogue's feet, whilst certainly not uncommon eventually, the design doesn't expect it and imo you shouldn't either. Realistically though even if you get a +1 it's just making up the gap in your Dex from taking a feat. If you take the feat as a V. Human, then that needs to be taken into consideration on the Soulknife.


At higher levels the second sneak attack is going to really out scale the soul knife by quite a bit.

You can say this, but you're not actually showing it happening. If the SK takes Dueling then you're looking at mid to late tier 3 before the otehr Rogue pulls ahead.

Frankly not only does this not matter, I already told you that the SK can just hold a weapon to get OAs if they really wanted to whilst still using their Psychic Blades. If they do that then the damage swings back again, thoroughly in the SK's favour.


Also I don’t know why people think rogues are squishie this edition.

I’ve played an AT as tank and didn’t even drop once. Granted it was an AT / BS but rogues are surprising hardy in actual play this edition. Max dex with magical studded leather or mage armor and you’re easily sporting a 18 AC pretty much the same as plate armor. If and when you get crit boom uncanny dodge.

Even as DM I had easier time bursting down the Paladin, than the rogue.

Rogue's aren't squishy because they have Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. If you're trying to get OAs as much as you possible can, then you don't have a reaction to Uncanny Dodge.

If you don't have a reaction to Uncanny Dodge then you're just a mediocre AC character with a d8 hit die, reducing your own speed to 0 and expecting to hang out in melee.

It will go badly.


A lot of your argument involves magical weapons and armour, why isn't the Soulknife getting items in this comparison? There's no reason the armor wouldn't apply to both, which just makes the SK tankier with their reaction for UD if they're not trying to reaction Sneak all the time.


So far all that's been shown is that the SK has superior damage into Tier 3, and can keep that damage outpacing they just hold a weapon. You've not shown SK damage lacking in anyway whatsoever.

[neonchameleon]

This is correct. They made a class with the flavor of melee, then gave it no meaningful melee support. It actually pushes against being in melee because the benefit of being there is potential opportunity attacks, but the soulknife can't use the psychic blade to make opportunity attacks because it's a poorly written feature.

But played at range, it's reasonably powerful. They essentially have the Crossbow Expert feat for free and don't require ammunition.

Very much this. The soulknife is a ranged build that can mix things up in melee like the crossbow expert. They are also meaningfully better at range thanks to the offhand attack than either the dual dagger thrower or the hand crossbow shooter (even with the crossbow expert feat) as they can get an offhand attack if they miss with the main one as an extra chance of triggering sneak attack; the dagger thrower only gets one object interaction per turn so can only draw one dagger (and doesn't get Dex to damage on their offhand attack). The crossbow expert of course can't truly dual wield because you need a free hand to reload the crossbow.

And the soulknife's feat of choice is of course skulker, which makes their offhand range attack even more useful.

[Segev]

Well, if people are actually following the rules (which are a disaster that needs to be errataed) then it looks like an absolute farce (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631165-I-wish-WotC-would-errata-the-Soulknife-(Rant)). But I suspect many DMs would houserule the hot mess. But at that point we're not talking about the Soulknife in the book anymore.

As written, it actually strongly encourages you against relying on your psychic blades in melee (as Evaar points out above). It's just... completely bizarre.

I would say that, if you assume that Soul Knives just aren't meant to be making OAs, it doesn't look like a farce. It's annoying, and the limits are weird, but they function.

I still agree it should be errata'd. Something as simple as saying it's a non-action to summon and banish the soul knife would suffice. You should be able to hold your lawyer-safe non-heavy/undark one-handed military/cavalry sword in a menacing manner, if you want, possibly with some sort of audible hum.

[J-H]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

[LudicSavant]

I would say that, if you assume that Soul Knives just aren't meant to be making OAs, it doesn't look like a farce. It's annoying, and the limits are weird, but they function.

It looks like a farce from an in-character perspective. And it looks like a farce from a mechanical design perspective too, because it's not functioning as a limit at all, it's only functioning as an annoyance. You aren't "unable to make OAs," you just are rewarded for making your OAs in a way that is annoying and doesn't make any in-world sense.

[quindraco]

Well, if people are actually following the rules (which are a disaster that needs to be errataed) then it looks like an absolute farce (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631165-I-wish-WotC-would-errata-the-Soulknife-(Rant)). But I suspect many DMs would houserule the hot mess. But at that point we're not talking about the Soulknife in the book anymore.

As written, it actually strongly encourages you against relying on your psychic blades in melee (as Evaar points out above). It's just... completely bizarre.

The most bizarre facet of it is that the knives are melee weapons. If they were ranged weapons (basically psychic darts), I think everyone would be a lot more understanding of their inability to be used in OAs (they'd basically be darts that trade improvised OAs for working with twf, which is a good trade). Then the only remaining issue would be that, unlike the Eldritch Knight and Pact of the Blade equivalent powers, the knives are made anew every time they're manifested, so buffing spells that target weapons don't work on them, and the DM will play hell trying to hand out a magic weapon-equivalent.

If they simply had the ability to grant Returning (like the Artificer infusion) to any two weapons (like how Eldritch Knights work) with the thrown property, and both weapons traded (from the infusion's perspective) +1 to hit for converting the damage type to psychic and the damage die to proficiency die (which you could cap at 1d10 if you like - the 1d6/1d4 thing with Dex 5 is the same output as using 1d10 daggers without the fighting style to add your Dex mod to the second attack) if less than that, everything would work out better.

[neonchameleon]

The most bizarre facet of it is that the knives are melee weapons. If they were ranged weapons (basically psychic darts), I think everyone would be a lot more understanding of their inability to be used in OAs (they'd basically be darts that trade improvised OAs for working with twf, which is a good trade).

If they were ranged weapons you couldn't use them in melee other than as improvised weapons. If it's a weapon you are intended to use both in melee and at range even where range is the primary use (e.g. Javelins) they are called melee weapons.

They basically are darts that trade improvised OAs for working in melee on your turn freely and working with TWF :)


If they simply had the ability to grant Returning (like the Artificer infusion) to any two weapons

If they did that I'd find the Soulknife a less thematic "pocket psychic" - a telepath who uses their psychic powers to enhance their sneakiness and skills, and brings people down with psychic darts.

[Gignere]

Advantage is not the same as two attacks, because those two attacks can still benefit from advantage from various sources.

You're also assuming that a magical finesse weapon will fall at the other Rogue's feet, whilst certainly not uncommon eventually, the design doesn't expect it and imo you shouldn't either. Realistically though even if you get a +1 it's just making up the gap in your Dex from taking a feat. If you take the feat as a V. Human, then that needs to be taken into consideration on the Soulknife.



You can say this, but you're not actually showing it happening. If the SK takes Dueling then you're looking at mid to late tier 3 before the otehr Rogue pulls ahead.

Frankly not only does this not matter, I already told you that the SK can just hold a weapon to get OAs if they really wanted to whilst still using their Psychic Blades. If they do that then the damage swings back again, thoroughly in the SK's favour.



Rogue's aren't squishy because they have Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. If you're trying to get OAs as much as you possible can, then you don't have a reaction to Uncanny Dodge.

If you don't have a reaction to Uncanny Dodge then you're just a mediocre AC character with a d8 hit die, reducing your own speed to 0 and expecting to hang out in melee.

It will go badly.


A lot of your argument involves magical weapons and armour, why isn't the Soulknife getting items in this comparison? There's no reason the armor wouldn't apply to both, which just makes the SK tankier with their reaction for UD if they're not trying to reaction Sneak all the time.


So far all that's been shown is that the SK has superior damage into Tier 3, and can keep that damage outpacing they just hold a weapon. You've not shown SK damage lacking in anyway whatsoever.

You are assuming one reaction sneak once every 3 turns how does this instantly make a sentinel rogue squishy?

If you are saying the non SK rogue do get reaction sneak every round than yes it would be squishier but than the non SK rogue DPR would be way higher than the SK rogue.

But I am digressing from my original point which is it isn’t “stupid” to maximize reaction attacks for a rogue. I am not even arguing other rogue archetypes are better than SK, TBH the only archetype that i think is better is the AT, and that is probably more about spell casting being freaking awesome compared to non spell options.

[Damon_Tor]

Has anyone played one and liked it? One of the two possibilities for a new campaign I'll be running soon involves a heavy psionic theme, so it might get picked.

Every time I read through it, all I see is a boring list of features:
-Does psychic damage but doesn't benefit from +weapons, so good for low magic and for enemies with resistances
-Limited telepathy
-Can do short distance teleports - kind of nice
-Minor boost to skills and occasionally turning misses into hits
-Can go invisible a few times per day at 13th.
-Save or stun a couple of times per SR at 17th level.

I mean, it's a decent package - rogues like stuns, invisibility, and teleportation, and have a strong chassis - but the actual core conceit of "Manifest a brain lightsaber" is barely there. The soulknife has zero incentive whatsoever to actually do melee, and benefits just as much from standing in the back throwing his blade repeatedly. It's an archery rogue, not a melee rogue.

I also feel like losing out on good magic weapons (+1-3 to hit & damage, elemental damage, etc.) is not a super effective trade-off.

So how does it look in actual play?

The class is misnamed: it's a psionic skill monkey. The "knife" of the soulknife is basically irrelevant. Make an Arcane Trickster and use Shadow Blade instead, you'll have a much better time.

[Dork_Forge]

You are assuming one reaction sneak once every 3 turns how does this instantly make a sentinel rogue squishy?

Purposefully seeking to reaction attack as often as you can means that whenever you 'succeed' you're leaving a hole in your defenses, whilst also drawing attention to yourself. Picking up Sentinel on anything but a V.Human/Custom Lineage means delaying Dex progression, so a lower AC comparatively.

lower AC + a lot less likely to be able to UD = comparatively squishy to a Rogue that isn't built like that.


If you are saying the non SK rogue do get reaction sneak every round than yes it would be squishier but than the non SK rogue DPR would be way higher than the SK rogue.

But I'm not saying that, and the SK damage is higher the majority of the time, and you've done nothing to contradict that.


But I am digressing from my original point which is it isn’t “stupid” to maximize reaction attacks for a rogue. I am not even arguing other rogue archetypes are better than SK, TBH the only archetype that i think is better is the AT, and that is probably more about spell casting being freaking awesome compared to non spell options.

If you think I ever said it was stupid to maximize reaction attacks, I didn't. I said it would be stupid for enemies to frequently provoke them, as it's tantamount to suicide.

AT is neat, but I think other subclasses are more interesting, like the Swashbuckler.


The class is misnamed: it's a psionic skill monkey. The "knife" of the soulknife is basically irrelevant. Make an Arcane Trickster and use Shadow Blade instead, you'll have a much better time.

How is it irrelevant and how is 'make a gish' fulfilling anything psionic besides just saying that it's psionic?

Even on an AT build you're not using Shadow Blade until 7th level, and even then it's at most two encounters a day, assuming you don't lose concentration. How does that fulfill the fantasy of being a soulknife/energy weapon user better than the subclass that can use them 4 levels earlier and at will?

[Damon_Tor]

How is it irrelevant and how is 'make a gish' fulfilling anything psionic besides just saying that it's psionic?

I've never once met a DM who said you can't refluff things.


Even on an AT build you're not using Shadow Blade until 7th level, and even then it's at most two encounters a day, assuming you don't lose concentration. How does that fulfill the fantasy of being a soulknife/energy weapon user better than the subclass that can use them 4 levels earlier and at will?

And sure, they can use them at will, but fundamentally they don't do anything. Until 9th level they are a freaking ribbon so what do I care if it's at will or not? Their core class feature, which the subclass is named after, boils down to weapon resistance bypass (highly situational) free sub-par pseudo dual-fighting style (conflicts with rogues' other bonus action options), and the roleplay aspect of being able to be "unarmed" and then arm yourself magically (ribbon).

As for the AT not getting SB until 7th level: just don't start as a rogue.

[Dork_Forge]

I've never once met a DM who said you can't refluff things.

You can say it's psionic, but it still has the hang ups of being a spell: components, concentration, and interaction with things like Counter Spell and Dispel Magic.


And sure, they can use them at will, but fundamentally they don't do anything. Until 9th level they are a freaking ribbon so what do I care if it's at will or not? Their core class feature, which the subclass is named after, boils down to weapon resistance bypass (highly situational) free sub-par pseudo dual-fighting style (conflicts with rogues' other bonus action options), and the roleplay aspect of being able to be "unarmed" and then arm yourself magically (ribbon).

Giving you a bonus attack with modifier, melee or ranged, is not a ribbon. It's a significant damage boost.

Circumventing non magical resistance/immunity is not a ribbon

You could argue that always being armed and leaving no marks would be ribbons, which is fine fun and thematic, and on top of two solid benefits.

There is literally nothing sub par about the bonus attack, it's better than dual wielding daggers in every way. You know what also conflicts with a Rogue's bonus action? Casting SB on the first turn of the combats you actually want to do yourr schtick, and again on turns you lost concentration.


As for the AT not getting SB until 7th level: just don't start as a rogue.

So have seriously delayed Sneak progression then? What do you propose instead, starting as a Wizard? Leaving you with (assuming you get the 4th level ASI), 5hp less than a straight Rogue, with significantly hindered progression in everything you're trying to do. To achieve just attacking with an energy weapon?

That's a lot of hoops to jump through to be worse at what you're trying to achieve.

[neonchameleon]

And sure, they can use them at will, but fundamentally they don't do anything. Until 9th level they are a freaking ribbon so what do I care if it's at will or not?

You mean other than have something stronger than Expertise on almost every skill roll and that stacks with Expertise? Your chance of not just failing five or more rolls but failing five within the margin of error of a single dice is pretty low - and even if you do that that's five skill rolls you've turned into successes. Psi-bolstered knack is emphatically not a ribbon ability.


Their core class feature, which the subclass is named after, boils down to weapon resistance bypass (highly situational) free sub-par pseudo dual-fighting style (conflicts with rogues' other bonus action options), and the roleplay aspect of being able to be "unarmed" and then arm yourself magically (ribbon).

I think you mean free above-par dual hand crossbow style complete with much of the Crossbow Expert feat thrown in.

Edit: And when it comes to ribbon abilities if you think the Soulknife's are it means it's following in the steps of the class it's named after (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm).

[Damon_Tor]

You mean other than have something stronger than Expertise on almost every skill roll and that stacks with Expertise? Your chance of not just failing five or more rolls but failing five within the margin of error of a single dice is pretty low - and even if you do that that's five skill rolls you've turned into successes. Psi-bolstered knack is emphatically not a ribbon ability.

Psi bolstered knack is great. If you want to be a psi-flavored skill monkey the soulknife is fin.

[neonchameleon]

Psi bolstered knack is great. If you want to be a psi-flavored skill monkey the soulknife is fin.

So the subclass itself is fine - and covers an archetype (the combat psychic who doesn't have a ridiculous defined spell list) pretty well.

It's just that like all the other rogue subclasses with the possible exception of the arcane trickster it doesn't add that much to the rogue's combat potential.

I'm not actually seeing a problem here. It's a rogue with psychic knives or a rogue psion so the name fits (and the soulknives are far better than the original class by that name).

[ff7hero]

(and the soulknives are far better than the original class by that name).

That's an exceptionally low bar, and basically par for the 5e course (at least where traditionally "weaker" classes are concerned). See also Monk, Bard and Paladin.

[neonchameleon]

That's an exceptionally low bar, and basically par for the 5e course (at least where traditionally "weaker" classes are concerned). See also Monk, Bard and Paladin.

I think the 3.5 Soulknife was actually worse than the 3.5 monk.

[Kane0]

That's an exceptionally low bar, and basically par for the 5e course (at least where traditionally "weaker" classes are concerned). See also Monk, Bard and Paladin.

Also hexblade and warmage

[Segev]

I think the 3.5 Soulknife was actually worse than the 3.5 monk.

I thunk the best rendition of the soul knife class is the Pathfinder one by Dreamscarred Press.

[Damon_Tor]

So the subclass itself is fine - and covers an archetype (the combat psychic who doesn't have a ridiculous defined spell list) pretty well.

It's just that like all the other rogue subclasses with the possible exception of the arcane trickster it doesn't add that much to the rogue's combat potential.

I'm not actually seeing a problem here. It's a rogue with psychic knives or a rogue psion so the name fits (and the soulknives are far better than the original class by that name).

Then maybe it shouldn't have been a rogue subclass.

[neonchameleon]

Then maybe it shouldn't have been a rogue subclass.

Why? It's a sneaky skillmonkey that likes to fight from ambush or against distracted people. That's a rogue. And fits with that interpretation of psionics.

[Dork_Forge]

Then maybe it shouldn't have been a rogue subclass.

Why not? It thematically fits the Rogue very well.

Your preferred version of this is a caster that uses Shadow Blade, which is a better version of a longsword with very heavy restrictions and cost associated to it. What's your vision of a Soulknife that SB fits better than the actual subclass?

[Segev]

It's main problem is the soul knife feature.

If they ditched that and called this the "psychic rogue," the other features would be great. It still would need something to fill out their combat kit a bit more, but if they didn't want to commit to the soul blade being something they could actually have and pose with (you know, making it iconic to the subclass), they should have done something else.

Calling it a "Soul Knife" means you're emphasizing the blade, not the psionic boosts. The blade therefore needs to actually star, rather than being a B-rank "I guess it's not terrible" feature.

Fixing it so that creating and dismissing it is a non-action that can be taken at any time you're not incapacitated would be sufficient.

[Dork_Forge]

It's main problem is the soul knife feature.

If they ditched that and called this the "psychic rogue," the other features would be great. It still would need something to fill out their combat kit a bit more, but if they didn't want to commit to the soul blade being something they could actually have and pose with (you know, making it iconic to the subclass), they should have done something else.

Calling it a "Soul Knife" means you're emphasizing the blade, not the psionic boosts. The blade therefore needs to actually star, rather than being a B-rank "I guess it's not terrible" feature.

Fixing it so that creating and dismissing it is a non-action that can be taken at any time you're not incapacitated would be sufficient.

The blades are psychic damage, 1d6 weapons with a range of 60ft, and give you a bonus action attack with a modifier to damage, all whilst being Sneak compatible.

They're one of this (if not the) biggest damage boosts any Rogue subclass gets, and it makes the Soulknife the most damaging Rogue subclass published so far for over half of the levels, and competitive if still not outright winning for the rest of them.

The context of getting two other pretty great abilities at 3rd level just makes the subclass better and more diverse, the blades themselves are still a massive boost for a Rogue's combat.

Besides people not liking that you technically can't use them for OAs, how are they a B-rank feature in anyway?

[Sorinth]

It's main problem is the soul knife feature.

If they ditched that and called this the "psychic rogue," the other features would be great. It still would need something to fill out their combat kit a bit more, but if they didn't want to commit to the soul blade being something they could actually have and pose with (you know, making it iconic to the subclass), they should have done something else.

Calling it a "Soul Knife" means you're emphasizing the blade, not the psionic boosts. The blade therefore needs to actually star, rather than being a B-rank "I guess it's not terrible" feature.

Fixing it so that creating and dismissing it is a non-action that can be taken at any time you're not incapacitated would be sufficient.

I'm struggling to see how it goes from a "star" to being a B-rank not terrible feature just because you don't have the blades active when it's nor your turn. That's seems like such a minor inconvenience that has little bearing on both it's function or it's name.

[Segev]

The blades are psychic damage, 1d6 weapons with a range of 60ft, and give you a bonus action attack with a modifier to damage, all whilst being Sneak compatible.

They're one of this (if not the) biggest damage boosts any Rogue subclass gets, and it makes the Soulknife the most damaging Rogue subclass published so far for over half of the levels, and competitive if still not outright winning for the rest of them.

The context of getting two other pretty great abilities at 3rd level just makes the subclass better and more diverse, the blades themselves are still a massive boost for a Rogue's combat.

Besides people not liking that you technically can't use them for OAs, how are they a B-rank feature in anyway?


I'm struggling to see how it goes from a "star" to being a B-rank not terrible feature just because you don't have the blades active when it's nor your turn. That's seems like such a minor inconvenience that has little bearing on both it's function or it's name.

Okay, if you don't see a major shift in power, do you see anything wrong with my suggested fix?

[Dork_Forge]

Okay, if you don't see a major shift in power, do you see anything wrong with my suggested fix?

It makes them viable targets for buffs, which greatly increases the already fairly potent power of them.

Your question was also skirting the issue a little, intention behind a fix should be important, not just the mechnical change.

[Segev]

It makes them viable targets for buffs, which greatly increases the already fairly potent power of them.

Your question was also skirting the issue a little, intention behind a fix should be important, not just the mechnical change.

The only buff I could see where that is true is Magic Weapon. I am not sure that is a very strong argument.

I am also not sure how I am skirting the issue. I have stated what I think is a problem. Others stated that my scale was off. My counter is to ask if my suggestion, which solves the problem, is overpowered if the problem is so minor as to not be worth fixing.

You do raise a second problem my fix solves, as if it were a problem to solve it. I confess that I don't see the lack of ability to enchant soul knives with buff spells as a real issue, but I don't see how enabling it is any problematic increase in their power, any more than, similarly as to what has previously been suggested, you could do the same wh a shadow blade generated y the eponymous spell.

[Gignere]

The blades are psychic damage, 1d6 weapons with a range of 60ft, and give you a bonus action attack with a modifier to damage, all whilst being Sneak compatible.

They're one of this (if not the) biggest damage boosts any Rogue subclass gets, and it makes the Soulknife the most damaging Rogue subclass published so far for over half of the levels, and competitive if still not outright winning for the rest of them.

The context of getting two other pretty great abilities at 3rd level just makes the subclass better and more diverse, the blades themselves are still a massive boost for a Rogue's combat.

Besides people not liking that you technically can't use them for OAs, how are they a B-rank feature in anyway?

Only the main hand is d6 the offhand blade (bonus action) is actually d4. Not a big difference but wanted to make sure the right info is out there.

[Damon_Tor]

Here's an experiment that you can try at home:

DM a game, and convince on of your players to play a soulknife.
Have the party come across a +1 shortbow.

[neonchameleon]

Okay, if you don't see a major shift in power, do you see anything wrong with my suggested fix?

I don't see the fix as needed. The blades are the most flamboyant part of the character. I also don't see myself as DM preventing someone drawing the knives to flourish them as an action, attacking the air. From that perspective I see it as unneeded. It's also a non-trivial power boost to an already strong subclass to enable opportunity attacks with soulknives.

The soulknife is the flashiest and most distinctive part of the kit - which isn't the same as the most powerful.

[Sorinth]

Okay, if you don't see a major shift in power, do you see anything wrong with my suggested fix?

No I don't have a problem with your "fix", but I also don't really see the need for it. But it seems like you think it is a major shift in power, care to elaborate? Because all I see is that you can now make OA doing Psychic damage instead of non-magical piercing, and I guess use a d6 instead of a d4 when doing so.

[neonchameleon]

Here's an experiment that you can try at home:

DM a game, and convince on of your players to play a soulknife.
Have the party come across a +1 shortbow.


And what? You'll have a single datapoint. To me the following are all possible responses:
The Soulknife will replace their existing shortbow with the +1 and still barely use it. There are times an extreme range is useful
The Soulknife has been keeping their soulknives a secret anyway and pretending to be a "normal" rogue
The Soulknife will ignore it. They prefer their mindblades and numbers don't matter much to them
The Soulknife will keep it a backup weapon; the reserve attack roll from the offhand that can give you your sneak attack a round early is more useful than the stronger but fewer attacks.
The Soulknife is played as a close range skirmisher who frequently goes into melee anyway so it's far from their chosen weapon.
The Soulknife will try to sell it and get something actually useful; magic items are expensive

I can't tell you what ratio those possibilities will happen in - but I can imagine different soulknives choosing all of them.

[Segev]

I don't see the fix as needed. The blades are the most flamboyant part of the character. I also don't see myself as DM preventing someone drawing the knives to flourish them as an action, attacking the air. From that perspective I see it as unneeded. It's also a non-trivial power boost to an already strong subclass to enable opportunity attacks with soulknives.

The soulknife is the flashiest and most distinctive part of the kit - which isn't the same as the most powerful.

I am going to restate what I think your reasons for opposing it as a change are, and my own rebuttals to them. If I am not properly interpreting you, please correct me.

The fix is unneeded (at your table) because you (as DM) would permit a PC to flourish, "attacking the air," to make them visible.
To me, this is insufficient, because it means the user cannot do things like hold it dramatically to somebody's throat at the end of a duel, or while holding them as a human shield, etc.
It also is a lot sillier-looking to have to flail about to have your weapon visible than to be able to hold it up to show, "I am armed," without saying so out loud.
It is an actual balance-point that you cannot make opportunity attacks with soul knives, but instead must be carrying a weapon. I read into this an implication that the fact that they do psychic damage is relevant, because it's the only way they're more powerful than a rapier the rogue could otherwise be wielding.
Carrying a weapon is not a difficult thing to do; it just makes having the soul knives less valuable overall.
Psychic damage is not bad, but it only really matters if something is resistant to non-magical damage, in most cases. This means that it's practically a NERF to the rogue to have a mind blade class feature, because it devalues carrying a weapon sufficiently that having one that is magical is even less likely. If a rogue does carry a weapon sufficient to make opportunity attacks under most circumstances a mind blade's greater power would be desirable, he essentially doesn't have the class feature except as a ranged attack. Why not spell out that it's a "mind bolt" rather than a "mind blade," at this point? This indicates to me that it was an oversight, not a deliberate balance-point, to forbid OAs.
The mind blade is flashy, but is essentially not the core of the kit.
The subclass is NAMED after the mind blade. It's not a ribbon, and it's not supposed to be something you only use if you don't have a weapon handy, but the way it's currently designed, that's what it encourages. That, or as Ludic Savant says, a comedic juggling act wherein you drop a weapon to summon your mind blades for your turn, then pick it back up to be ready to make OAs.
My proposal is not a significant power boost because OAs are still something the Soul Knife can take; he just has to engage in silly behavior or choose not to use the mind blade to do so, and he has limited incentive to use the mind blade when it costs him opportunity attacks as an option.

So, if it's supposed to be flashy and iconic, why does it reward the rogue who doesn't use it?

It's not a power boost to the rogue class to let the mind blade work with OAs. It just makes the mind blade not silly or foolish to use in lieu of a normal weapon.

[Damon_Tor]

The Soulknife is played as a close range skirmisher who frequently goes into melee anyway so it's far from their chosen weapon.

Why would a soulknife ever go into melee? There's not actually a reason to ever be in melee range on purpose.

[Sorinth]

I am going to restate what I think your reasons for opposing it as a change are, and my own rebuttals to them. If I am not properly interpreting you, please correct me.

The fix is unneeded (at your table) because you (as DM) would permit a PC to flourish, "attacking the air," to make them visible.
To me, this is insufficient, because it means the user cannot do things like hold it dramatically to somebody's throat at the end of a duel, or while holding them as a human shield, etc.
It also is a lot sillier-looking to have to flail about to have your weapon visible than to be able to hold it up to show, "I am armed," without saying so out loud.
It is an actual balance-point that you cannot make opportunity attacks with soul knives, but instead must be carrying a weapon. I read into this an implication that the fact that they do psychic damage is relevant, because it's the only way they're more powerful than a rapier the rogue could otherwise be wielding.
Carrying a weapon is not a difficult thing to do; it just makes having the soul knives less valuable overall.
Psychic damage is not bad, but it only really matters if something is resistant to non-magical damage, in most cases. This means that it's practically a NERF to the rogue to have a mind blade class feature, because it devalues carrying a weapon sufficiently that having one that is magical is even less likely. If a rogue does carry a weapon sufficient to make opportunity attacks under most circumstances a mind blade's greater power would be desirable, he essentially doesn't have the class feature except as a ranged attack. Why not spell out that it's a "mind bolt" rather than a "mind blade," at this point? This indicates to me that it was an oversight, not a deliberate balance-point, to forbid OAs.
The mind blade is flashy, but is essentially not the core of the kit.
The subclass is NAMED after the mind blade. It's not a ribbon, and it's not supposed to be something you only use if you don't have a weapon handy, but the way it's currently designed, that's what it encourages. That, or as Ludic Savant says, a comedic juggling act wherein you drop a weapon to summon your mind blades for your turn, then pick it back up to be ready to make OAs.
My proposal is not a significant power boost because OAs are still something the Soul Knife can take; he just has to engage in silly behavior or choose not to use the mind blade to do so, and he has limited incentive to use the mind blade when it costs him opportunity attacks as an option.

So, if it's supposed to be flashy and iconic, why does it reward the rogue who doesn't use it?

It's not a power boost to the rogue class to let the mind blade work with OAs. It just makes the mind blade not silly or foolish to use in lieu of a normal weapon.

Whether you can hold your psychic dagger up to someones throat is irrelevant. There's no mechanical benefit or rules regarding holding a knife to someone's throat. So really it's just a question of how everyone is imagining the scene unfolding, and I have a hard time believing that any halfway decent DM will prevent something that has no rules/mechanical benefits from happening.

If this was really a balance point for WotC then it's worth noting it's not simply trading OA for psychic damage, it's essentially trading OA for a Psychic Crossbow Expert feat with some additional mostly fluff stuff (Always armed , no visible damage). That's still a great trade.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Here's an experiment that you can try at home:

DM a game, and convince on of your players to play a soulknife.
Have the party come across a +1 shortbow.


This is no different than a Character focused on GWM, finding a Flame-Tongue Longsword at 4th level.

Part of the fun and challenge of the game, is witnessing players navigate the choice of either using the best available tool or sticking with their character concept.

I am going to restate what I think your reasons for opposing it as a change are, and my own rebuttals to them. If I am not properly interpreting you, please correct me.

Segev, you come across as a very nice individual. While, you intend no malice...your post is literally constructed as one large Strawman argument. This construction choice, doesn't bolster your points, I'm afraid. ✌️



To me, this is insufficient, because it means the user cannot do things like hold it dramatically to somebody's throat at the end of a duel, or while holding them as a human shield, etc.

Lightsabers/Sun Blades realistically don't have an option to do subdual damage. It is also very difficult to safely light the candles on a birthday cake using only the Meteor Swarm spell. 🃏.

I'm fine with Psychic Blades being less versatile than material weapons...viva la différence!


Psychic damage is not bad, but it only really matters if something is resistant to non-magical damage, in most cases. This means that it's practically a NERF to the rogue to have a mind blade class feature, because it devalues carrying a weapon sufficiently that having one that is magical is even less likely.

I'm not following this reasoning at all. It seems akin to saying that Natural Armor Feature on a Lizardfolk PC somehow results in magical armor being less likely to be found.

A Soul Knife is a tool in a tool kit. Sometimes a Soul Knife will be the best tool for a situation, sometimes it won't be the best tool.

I carry a Gerber Multi-tool on me. 98% of the time I either do not need to use it, or have access to a better tool.

The value of the Gerber Tool, to me, is that for a negligible amount of carrying weight, I have access to useful tools, even when my access to the best tools is inhibited.

The value in the Soul Knife is in having access to a 100% concealable shank, that leaves no visible wounds, and presumable makes no sound....seems a useful feature to have when your class also has Sneak Attack....even if some other options, such as a Shortsword of Speed, are available.

[neonchameleon]

Why would a soulknife ever go into melee? There's not actually a reason to ever be in melee range on purpose.

This statement comes from so far outside my experience that I can only assume that we play the game very differently.

Just because "there's not actually a reason to ever be in melee range on purpose" doesn't mean that there's not actually a reason to ever be in melee range. First if you don't want to be in melee range then the enemy is going to want to be in melee range with you. Second you don't not want to be in melee as much as a e.g. a (non-bladesinger) wizard wants to not be in melee so you might want to take the heat off them. Third there are enemies who want to not be in melee more than you. Fourth you really aren't bad at melee by rogue standards - especially by the standards of rogues who use their reactions defensively.

It's not the primary tool in your toolbox, but it is a tool.

Edit: And Sorinth and Thunderous Mojo have said just about everything I think I'd want to in reply to Segev. No sense giving the same answers twice.

[Segev]

Segev, you come across as a very nice individual. While, you intend no malice...your post is literally constructed as one large Strawman argument. This construction choice, doesn't bolster your points, I'm afraid. ✌️


I am on myjphone, making replies in detail hard, so I will only respond to this right now. A straw an argument is easily defeated by pointing out, as I asked to be done if I was not properly repeating the argument neonchameleon was making, where the straw man differs from the actual argument. It was my intention and hope that, if I did not understand his position well enough th I was repeating it correctly, the points I was not correctly expressing would be corrected.

It is remarkably hard to have a debate where one does not understand the other side's points. I can only responds what I believe is being said. Hence inviting correction after trying to repeat the position back.

Telling me it is a straw man is therefore unhelpful; it refutes nothing I said, because it doesn't begin to tell me where I am wrong. Only that you do not believe I addressed the true argument. I don't know the true argument if you do not tell me where the true argument and what you deem to be my straw man differ.

Please elaborate on what I got wrong in representing the argument I am opposing; I would like to be addressing that, but need help understanding it.

(edited to clean up a bit and add the la paragraph. Phone is full of typos today.)

[ff7hero]

And what? You'll have a single datapoint. To me the following are all possible responses:
The Soulknife will replace their existing shortbow with the +1 and still barely use it. There are times an extreme range is useful
The Soulknife has been keeping their soulknives a secret anyway and pretending to be a "normal" rogue
The Soulknife will ignore it. They prefer their mindblades and numbers don't matter much to them
The Soulknife will keep it a backup weapon; the reserve attack roll from the offhand that can give you your sneak attack a round early is more useful than the stronger but fewer attacks.
The Soulknife is played as a close range skirmisher who frequently goes into melee anyway so it's far from their chosen weapon.
The Soulknife will try to sell it and get something actually useful; magic items are expensive

I can't tell you what ratio those possibilities will happen in - but I can imagine different soulknives choosing all of them.

Or someone else in the party takes it.

[Thunderous Mojo]

It is remarkably hard to have a debate where one does not understand the other side's points. I can only responds what I believe is being said. Hence inviting correction after trying to repeat the position back.

Telling me it is a straw man is therefore unhelpful; it refutes nothing I said, because it doesn't begin to tell me where I am wrong. Only that you do not believe I addressed the true argument. I don't know the true argument if you do not tell me where the true argument and what you deem to be my straw man differ.

I agree with all of this, and, as I stated before, your post does indeed convey your intent of receiving further clarification.

My intention was not, nor is not, to insult you, or to say you were doing anything malicious.

Quite the opposite in fact!

My first thought upon reading this: "I am going to restate what I think your reasons for opposing it as a change are, and my own rebuttals to them. If I am not properly interpreting you, please correct me.".......
...................was that this was a very polite way to state you were going to respond to positions, that were likely, not the actual positions of the person you were responding to....which stylistically, conveyed to me the idea of a Straw Man argument.

I'm no editor, but the sentence quoted in the above paragraph struck me as odd.
As I mentioned before, Sergev, you come across as an earnest, honest, kind, and nice person....so please accept my apologies for any offense, I may have caused.

I stuck my proverbial foot, in my mouth. Mea Culpa.

Happy Fourth of July.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Then maybe it shouldn't have been a rogue subclass.

Random aside, since I know that the conversation has moved on, but I could seriously see the soulknife as a monk subclass.

Slowly creeps out.

[J-H]

Random aside, since I know that the conversation has moved on, but I could seriously see the soulknife as a monk subclass.

Slowly creeps out.

There is a soulknife monk already... Astral Self. You use your ki points (concentration/mind power) to create melee weapons (extra arms) out of nothing, and can attack with them using your Wisdom bonus. Then you expand your mind powers to include darkvision and limited telepathy... then you get a couple of extra low-level powers that manifest automatically at higher levels, like + AC, deflect energy, deal more damage, and attacking extra times.


OK, end of thread. The Astral Self Monk fulfills the Soulknife fantasy better than the Tasha's Soulknife Psychic Rogue does.

[Kane0]

OK, end of thread. The Astral Self Monk fulfills the Soulknife fantasy better than the Tasha's Soulknife Psychic Rogue does.

Should they be merged? Recent UA has shown the possibility of a subclass that could be made that covers both classes.

While we're at it change up AA to enable it for ranger and the same for kensei on fighter.

[neonchameleon]

There is a soulknife monk already... Astral Self. You use your ki points (concentration/mind power) to create melee weapons (extra arms) out of nothing, and can attack with them using your Wisdom bonus. Then you expand your mind powers to include darkvision and limited telepathy... then you get a couple of extra low-level powers that manifest automatically at higher levels, like + AC, deflect energy, deal more damage, and attacking extra times.


OK, end of thread. The Astral Self Monk fulfills the Soulknife fantasy better than the Tasha's Soulknife Psychic Rogue does.

Hardly end of thread. The Astral Self and Soulknife are both psychics - the Astral Self monk is primarily a telekinetic, the soulknife is primarily a telepath. Both (plus the Aberrant Mind psychic) have been given enough of a gloss that they should satisfy both most people who want to play psychics and most of those who hate psionics.

But of the two the Soulknife is far closer to the top of things I'd want to play - but this is personal preference.

What is "The Soulknife fantasy?" Because five pages in to a Google search the term seems D&D exclusive and I can guarantee almost no one wanted the return of the 3.5 Soulknife. As for "Character's power is centered round a magic sword", which is the other interpretation, we already have both the Hexblade and the Pact of the Blade. There's no real room for a challenger there with the blade bonded to them or that they can summon. The Soulknife needed a different conceptual space.

Possibly they just shouldn't have reused the name Soulknife.

[Damon_Tor]

Another problem with the subclass in combat: it lacks a good way to get sneak attack on targets of choice, and is restricted for the most part to targets adjacent to allies.

Arcane Tricksters have a number of spells that assist with this, including Find Familiar.
Inquisitives have Insightful Fighting
Wails from the Grave mitigates this problem for Phantoms
Swashbucklers have Rakish Audacity
Assassins... have their own unique mechanics.


Thieves, Masterminds and Scouts are more skill-focused in their core concepts, so I'm okay with them not having it. I'm not saying a rogue subclass can't be skill focused. But when you name a subclass after the weapon they produce, there is an expectation that this is maybe a combat subclass and maybe they should be good at it. But lacking target choice is massive flaw in this role, especially when your subclass seems to expect you have your bonus action free to make an attack: you can't even use a cunning action to generate a steak attack or skirmish effectively.

And yeah, the 3e soulknife was a stinker, but it was a combat class, not a skill monkey. The Soulknife packaged with the Mystic in UA was a combat class. The Soulknife Monk Mearls teased in his podcast was a combat class. ALL of them had major issues, and I'm not minimizing that that, but at least they all tried to fulfill the implication of the name.

[Gignere]

Another problem with the subclass in combat: it lacks a good way to get sneak attack on targets of choice, and is restricted for the most part to targets adjacent to allies.

Arcane Tricksters have a number of spells that assist with this, including Find Familiar.
Inquisitives have Insightful Fighting
Wails from the Grave mitigates this problem for Phantoms
Swashbucklers have Rakish Audacity
Assassins... have their own unique mechanics.


Thieves, Masterminds and Scouts are more skill-focused in their core concepts, so I'm okay with them not having it. I'm not saying a rogue subclass can't be skill focused. But when you name a subclass after the weapon they produce, there is an expectation that this is maybe a combat subclass and maybe they should be good at it. But lacking target choice is massive flaw in this role, especially when your subclass seems to expect you have your bonus action free to make an attack: you can't even use a cunning action to generate a steak attack or skirmish effectively.

And yeah, the 3e soulknife was a stinker, but it was a combat class, not a skill monkey. The Soulknife packaged with the Mystic in UA was a combat class. The Soulknife Monk Mearls teased in his podcast was a combat class. ALL of them had major issues, and I'm not minimizing that that, but at least they all tried to fulfill the implication of the name.

Every rogue class can now just Steady Aim though.

[neonchameleon]

Another problem with the subclass in combat: it lacks a good way to get sneak attack on targets of choice, and is restricted for the most part to targets adjacent to allies.

On the other hand it has a better chance of triggering sneak attack than other rogue subclasses because when there is sneak attack available when the right don't get you then the left one will. So this is completely a non-issue.


And yeah, the 3e soulknife was a stinker, but it was a combat class, not a skill monkey.

And yet the 5e soulknife could kick its ass as a combat class. That's because the rogue is a combat class as well as a skill monkey.



The Soulknife packaged with the Mystic in UA was a combat class. The Soulknife Monk Mearls teased in his podcast was a combat class. ALL of them had major issues, and I'm not minimizing that that, but at least they all tried to fulfill the implication of the name.

The implication of a Soulblade or Soulsword (or even Hexblade) would be that it would be combat primary. But a knife is something I use in the kitchen. It's something that I carry in my pocket as a tool for opening letters and boxes. A knife can be used for combat but it's something that assists with skills first and foremost and if you apply it to combat it's as a secondary use. Which is just another way the 3.5 soulknife was not fit for purpose. It should have at the very least been about functionality in and out of combat.

[Kane0]

Makes me sad that the mystoc was dropped. Having these subclasses like the soulknife and psywar and astral monk could have been way more cohesive if they could have picked a psionic discipline or two rather than their special mechanics which basically emulate the same thing anyways.

[Damon_Tor]

Every rogue class can now just Steady Aim though.

Unless the core combat boost included in the subclass requires a bonus action. Oops!

[neonchameleon]

Makes me sad that the mystoc was dropped. Having these subclasses like the soulknife and psywar and astral monk could have been way more cohesive if they could have picked a psionic discipline or two rather than their special mechanics which basically emulate the same thing anyways.

The thing here is that I'm far more interested in cohesive characters than I am a cohesive theory of psionics. The mystic was trying for cohesive psionics at the expense of the characters.

[Dork_Forge]

Another problem with the subclass in combat: it lacks a good way to get sneak attack on targets of choice, and is restricted for the most part to targets adjacent to allies.

Arcane Tricksters have a number of spells that assist with this, including Find Familiar.
Inquisitives have Insightful Fighting
Wails from the Grave mitigates this problem for Phantoms
Swashbucklers have Rakish Audacity
Assassins... have their own unique mechanics.


Find Familiar =/= Sneak Attack unless the initiative order has you go after it or your DM goes against RAW to facilitate it, and FF is a pretty high cost spell on an AT.

Wails of the Grave doesn't mitigate qualifiying for Sneak Attack and is so limited use early on it's hardly worth mentioning in that capacity even if it did.

Soulknife can use Hide better with Psi Boldtered Knack and later a better version of Invisibility, which is plenty of help.


Thieves, Masterminds and Scouts are more skill-focused in their core concepts, so I'm okay with them not having it. I'm not saying a rogue subclass can't be skill focused. But when you name a subclass after the weapon they produce, there is an expectation that this is maybe a combat subclass and maybe they should be good at it. But lacking target choice is massive flaw in this role, especially when your subclass seems to expect you have your bonus action free to make an attack: you can't even use a cunning action to generate a steak attack or skirmish effectively.



And yeah, the 3e soulknife was a stinker, but it was a combat class, not a skill monkey. The Soulknife packaged with the Mystic in UA was a combat class. The Soulknife Monk Mearls teased in his podcast was a combat class. ALL of them had major issues, and I'm not minimizing that that, but at least they all tried to fulfill the implication of the name.

You keep voicing concerns about the Soulknife and it's perfectly clear that you don't like it, but to suggest that it isn't a combat subclass is... ignoring a lot. You don't need to use both attacks, but you also don't need to use Cunning Action, it's up to the player how they want to play it and that includes just slugging it out in melee because that's what they want to do.

The Soulknife is the highest damage Rogue for at least half the game, possibly more and only really competed with by an AT that gears itself towards combat.

If you really doubt it's combat prowess then show us how it fails, because using a bonus action isn't failing.

[Gignere]

Find Familiar =/= Sneak Attack unless the initiative order has you go after it or your DM goes against RAW to facilitate it, and FF is a pretty high cost spell on an AT.

Well you just have it help for your action in your next turn. All it means when a familiar goes after you in initiative is that you would need steady aim or just go without advantage your first turn.

[Dork_Forge]

Well you just have it help for your action in your next turn. All it means when a familiar goes after you in initiative is that you would need steady aim or just go without advantage your first turn.

Help on an attack isn't specific to the attacker, if the familiar goes after you do and uses the help action, the advantage is for whichever party member attacks that creature next. You could get a familiar to ready action help, but then there's no reason the familiar wouldn't just get squished anyway.

Whilst I oculd see it being ruled to be specific that, well makes no sense.

[Damon_Tor]

The Soulknife is the highest damage Rogue for at least half the game.

If Homing Strikes was available at 3rd level I would have far fewer issues with the subclass. 6 levels is too long to wait for your core combat feature to show up.

[Dork_Forge]

If Homing Strikes was available at 3rd level I would have far fewer issues with the subclass. 6 levels is too long to wait for your core combat feature to show up.

And that would just be plain OP.

So you have no objection to the Soulknife's damage output? You just want it to be more narrow in focus because you think that fits the theme better?

[ff7hero]

You can lend your aid to another creature in the completion of a task. When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn.

Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally's attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage.

Emphasis mine. I wouldn't argue with a DM who ruled otherwise, but my interpretation is that one Helps a specific creature.

[Dork_Forge]

Emphasis mine. I wouldn't argue with a DM who ruled otherwise, but my interpretation is that one Helps a specific creature.

The first half is irrelevent to the second half, helping a creature with a check is not the same as helping in combat.

If you compare the two paragraphs it makes it clearer, the first paragraph specifies that the creature you aid gets advantage, where as the second paragraph just states your ally, not a specific creature, just an ally.

Thematically this makes sense since, how could you distract a creature to give advantage for an attack from one specific party member without readying and using up your reaction?

For whatever it's worth Crawford has clarified this (https://www.sageadvice.eu/help-action-canmust-you-specify-which-ally-is-helped/) and for what might be worth a bit more, here's the text from the DM screen reincarnated:


You help a creature with a specifc task, gicint that creature advantage on the next ability check it makes for that task. Or you distract one creature within 5 feet of you, and the next attack roll that an ally of yours makes against that creature has advantage.

Whichever option you choose, the advantage goes away once used of when your next turn starts.

[neonchameleon]

This might be a group ettiquette thing, but I've very seldom seen 5e familiars get to use the Aid action in combat twice. Once, sure. But after that they are an AC 11-ish creature with 2-ish hit points. If they're non-combatants the only way they get attacked is with an AoE spell - but if they try doing things like setting up someone else to hit they are going down.

And a 1 hour plus 10GP replacement time is fairly steep. Especially as my reading is you can't just use a short rest because a full hour worth of casting a spell is more strenuous than the basics you're allowed ("Eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds").

So using a familiar for sneak attack is an option that in my experience is almost purely theoretical.

[Waazraath]

This might be a group ettiquette thing, but I've very seldom seen 5e familiars get to use the Aid action in combat twice. Once, sure. But after that they are an AC 11-ish creature with 2-ish hit points. If they're non-combatants the only way they get attacked is with an AoE spell - but if they try doing things like setting up someone else to hit they are going down.

And a 1 hour plus 10GP replacement time is fairly steep. Especially as my reading is you can't just use a short rest because a full hour worth of casting a spell is more strenuous than the basics you're allowed ("Eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds").

So using a familiar for sneak attack is an option that in my experience is almost purely theoretical.

I think it depends on the familiar - I think it is assumed that a familiar providing advantage with the help action has flyby (unless its an invisible Chainlock familiar, but that's another story). Of course, even then any creature with a ranged attack could take it down, but in combats with opponents without reliable ranged attacks it could help in a safe way.

[ff7hero]

This might be a group ettiquette thing, but I've very seldom seen 5e familiars get to use the Aid action in combat twice. Once, sure. But after that they are an AC 11-ish creature with 2-ish hit points. If they're non-combatants the only way they get attacked is with an AoE spell - but if they try doing things like setting up someone else to hit they are going down.

And a 1 hour plus 10GP replacement time is fairly steep. Especially as my reading is you can't just use a short rest because a full hour worth of casting a spell is more strenuous than the basics you're allowed ("Eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds").

So using a familiar for sneak attack is an option that in my experience is almost purely theoretical.

Plus, 10 GP and an hour is a decent rate for drawing even a single enemy attack.

[Gignere]

This might be a group ettiquette thing, but I've very seldom seen 5e familiars get to use the Aid action in combat twice. Once, sure. But after that they are an AC 11-ish creature with 2-ish hit points. If they're non-combatants the only way they get attacked is with an AoE spell - but if they try doing things like setting up someone else to hit they are going down.

And a 1 hour plus 10GP replacement time is fairly steep. Especially as my reading is you can't just use a short rest because a full hour worth of casting a spell is more strenuous than the basics you're allowed ("Eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds").

So using a familiar for sneak attack is an option that in my experience is almost purely theoretical.

That’s actually part of the great thing about familiars an attack on them is not an attack on the players especially at high levels what the enemy just used their 4d10 attack on the familiar woohoo. Even better yet if they try to chase my owl familiar with flyby.

[Gignere]

The first half is irrelevent to the second half, helping a creature with a check is not the same as helping in combat.

If you compare the two paragraphs it makes it clearer, the first paragraph specifies that the creature you aid gets advantage, where as the second paragraph just states your ally, not a specific creature, just an ally.

Thematically this makes sense since, how could you distract a creature to give advantage for an attack from one specific party member without readying and using up your reaction?

For whatever it's worth Crawford has clarified this (https://www.sageadvice.eu/help-action-canmust-you-specify-which-ally-is-helped/) and for what might be worth a bit more, here's the text from the DM screen reincarnated:

He also contradicted himself when someone asked to clarify the mastermind’s bonus action help and normal help action. Ruling that the mastermind can help two specific allies and not waste their help actions if it’s just the next allly.

[Mitchellnotes]

What is "The Soulknife fantasy?" Because five pages in to a Google search the term seems D&D exclusive and I can guarantee almost no one wanted the return of the 3.5 Soulknife. As for "Character's power is centered round a magic sword", which is the other interpretation, we already have both the Hexblade and the Pact of the Blade. There's no real room for a challenger there with the blade bonded to them or that they can summon. The Soulknife needed a different conceptual space.

Possibly they just shouldn't have reused the name Soulknife.

I'm not sure if there is any other historical/mythic roots, but I would encourage looking up "Psylocke" as an example of what people are probably looking for in regards to this theme.

[Dork_Forge]

He also contradicted himself when someone asked to clarify the mastermind’s bonus action help and normal help action. Ruling that the mastermind can help two specific allies and not waste their help actions if it’s just the next allly.

I said 'for what it's worth' for a reason, it being consumed by the first attack is my interpretation of the rules and what makes sense when I thought about what the rules are meant to represent. When I looked it up I just came up with Crawford and the DM screen, of the two of them I'd give the screen more weight.

I'm not sure why a Mastermind would help twice a round though, that seems a waste of Sneak.

[da newt]

"The Soulknife is the highest damage Rogue for at least half the game, possibly more and only really competed with by an AT that gears itself towards combat."

Can you spell the above out for me? I must be missing something, but it seems to me the SK is no higher DPR than other rogue subclasses.

[stoutstien]

"The Soulknife is the highest damage Rogue for at least half the game, possibly more and only really competed with by an AT that gears itself towards combat."

Can you spell the above out for me? I must be missing something, but it seems to me the SK is no higher DPR than other rogue subclasses.

Homing strike. It's risk free to use because the PD only get used of it works. That means if the player wanted to they could safely spam it until they turn X misses in X hits and due to Sneak attack that a pretty large sum of damage they can build up.

[Gignere]

I said 'for what it's worth' for a reason, it being consumed by the first attack is my interpretation of the rules and what makes sense when I thought about what the rules are meant to represent. When I looked it up I just came up with Crawford and the DM screen, of the two of them I'd give the screen more weight.

I'm not sure why a Mastermind would help twice a round though, that seems a waste of Sneak.

However DM screen also conflicts with PHB’s wording. Let’s just say RAW help action is a mess right now.

I agree via Mastermind that likely helping twice is not usually an optimal strategy but there maybe edge cases that is applicable like when fighting an enemy resistant to nonmagical damage at low levels and the two party members with magic weapons are the two tanks.

The best action maybe instead of trying to do a half damage sneak attack is to help both tanks to get their hits in. Even helping the sorcerer with his fire bolt and the fighter with his attack is better than sneak attacking at half damage.

[Dork_Forge]

"The Soulknife is the highest damage Rogue for at least half the game, possibly more and only really competed with by an AT that gears itself towards combat."

Can you spell the above out for me? I must be missing something, but it seems to me the SK is no higher DPR than other rogue subclasses.

The bonus attack with modifier is a significant increase, then in later levels Homing Strikes makes it almost unparalleled in terms of accuracy among Rogues.


However DM screen also conflicts with PHB’s wording. Let’s just say RAW help action is a mess right now.

I agree via Mastermind that likely helping twice is not usually an optimal strategy but there maybe edge cases that is applicable like when fighting an enemy resistant to nonmagical damage at low levels and the two party members with magic weapons are the two tanks.

The best action maybe instead of trying to do a half damage sneak attack is to help both tanks to get their hits in. Even helping the sorcerer with his fire bolt and the fighter with his attack is better than sneak attacking at half damage.

The wording in the PHB isn't great and I can understand why the intepretation of helping a specific creature could be read, I point to the DM screen as it is an official product with clarified wording. If the intent of the PHB is that help in combat isn't specific like it is on skill checks, then the DM screen is accurately reflecting that intent afterall it's purpose is purely to be a quick reference not a copy paste from the PHB.


It'd be a very edge case, a creature with resistance to nonmagical damage and a high AC, because even halved Sneak damage is decent damage vs nothing.

[Gignere]

The bonus attack with modifier is a significant increase, then in later levels Homing Strikes makes it almost unparalleled in terms of accuracy among Rogues.



The wording in the PHB isn't great and I can understand why the intepretation of helping a specific creature could be read, I point to the DM screen as it is an official product with clarified wording. If the intent of the PHB is that help in combat isn't specific like it is on skill checks, then the DM screen is accurately reflecting that intent afterall it's purpose is purely to be a quick reference not a copy paste from the PHB.


It'd be a very edge case, a creature with resistance to nonmagical damage and a high AC, because even halved Sneak damage is decent damage vs nothing.

It’s not nothing you increase DPR of the player that can do damage.

Although edge case how would you rule for the Mastermind? With his/her two help actions against a single enemy on two different allies. Do you just say it’s wasted because after the next ally hits both help actions are used up?

[Dork_Forge]

It’s not nothing you increase DPR of the player that can do damage.

Although edge case how would you rule for the Mastermind? With his/her two help actions against a single enemy on two different allies. Do you just say it’s wasted because after the next ally hits both help actions is used up?

I just doubt that increase in DPR being greater than a resisted Sneak Attack.

I would just tell the player to ready action help after the first one is used which seems far more appropriate for what they're trying to achieve.

[Segev]

I still haven't seen any arguments that really explain why it is such a balance concern that mind blades not be usable with OAs.

To try to set up what I consider a valid way to justify it, here are the points that I think need to be addressed as to why the mind blade's current design is so perfectly balanced that it can't be tweaked to instead just be a non-action to summon or dismiss it:

A rogue who has Crossbow Expert doesn't lose the ability to have OAs while still getting Crossbow Expert's benefits.
A soul knife can still get OAs; he just has to have a weapon he juggles at the start and end of his turn.
The one downside to juggling a real weapon is that, if it's not magical, then he can't take OAs against things that are immune to nonmagical weapons.

It doesn't look, to me, like this really prevents the soul knife from...anything. It just requires some weird behaviors to achieve the same results that another rogue, who hadn't invested in the soul knife subclass, could achieve. Whether spending a feat on crossbow expert, or using the greater need for a magical weapon to justify calling "dibs" on one (assuming the DM doesn't have a "rogue specific" magic weapon show up only if the rogue doesn't have a mind blade), the soul knife isn't doing anything the other rogue couldn't. And if the soul knife calls "dibs" on the same weapons, he's saved himself a feat but has devalued the melee aspect of his mind blade considerably. Or, if he really likes the off-hand attack, he's still juggling his magic weapon.

In the end, keeping the rogue from using the mind blade on OAs doesn't seem to limit him much, just require athematic behaviors.

So I keep hammering at this because the only arguments seem to be, "It's not necessary to let them have OAs, and as a house rule a DM should let them brandish the weapon even though I'm saying house rules aren't needed."

What actually breaks if the soul knife can call up his mind blade and dismiss it as non-actions? Remembering the bullet points above, which I think counter most of the claims about how it's such a huge power increase.

[Dork_Forge]

I still haven't seen any arguments that really explain why it is such a balance concern that mind blades not be usable with OAs.

To try to set up what I consider a valid way to justify it, here are the points that I think need to be addressed as to why the mind blade's current design is so perfectly balanced that it can't be tweaked to instead just be a non-action to summon or dismiss it:

A rogue who has Crossbow Expert doesn't lose the ability to have OAs while still getting Crossbow Expert's benefits.
A soul knife can still get OAs; he just has to have a weapon he juggles at the start and end of his turn.
The one downside to juggling a real weapon is that, if it's not magical, then he can't take OAs against things that are immune to nonmagical weapons.

It doesn't look, to me, like this really prevents the soul knife from...anything. It just requires some weird behaviors to achieve the same results that another rogue, who hadn't invested in the soul knife subclass, could achieve. Whether spending a feat on crossbow expert, or using the greater need for a magical weapon to justify calling "dibs" on one (assuming the DM doesn't have a "rogue specific" magic weapon show up only if the rogue doesn't have a mind blade), the soul knife isn't doing anything the other rogue couldn't. And if the soul knife calls "dibs" on the same weapons, he's saved himself a feat but has devalued the melee aspect of his mind blade considerably. Or, if he really likes the off-hand attack, he's still juggling his magic weapon.

In the end, keeping the rogue from using the mind blade on OAs doesn't seem to limit him much, just require athematic behaviors.

So I keep hammering at this because the only arguments seem to be, "It's not necessary to let them have OAs, and as a house rule a DM should let them brandish the weapon even though I'm saying house rules aren't needed."

What actually breaks if the soul knife can call up his mind blade and dismiss it as non-actions? Remembering the bullet points above, which I think counter most of the claims about how it's such a huge power increase.

I think I may have forgotten to reply about the whole what changes thing, so here's some stuff off the top of my head that would then become relevant:

-Magic Weapon (can be self supplied rather easily)

-Elemental Weapon

-Improved Divine Smite

-Sacred Weapon

-SCAGtrips most likely (if your DM says they can work with Shadow Blade, then that likely applies to the SK post errata).

-Defensive Duelist

If you can keep them around, you can probably make them your Pact Weapon, so:

-Thirsting Blade

-Life Drinker

-Improved Pact Weapon

-Eldritch Smite

The overall combat bump a Soulknife gets is pretty large by the standards of Rogue subclasses, so the design intent may simply be: we don't think giant amounts of psychic damage as a reaction is okay.

I do find your point about Crossbow Expert kind of moot though, not only did that Rogue invest in a feat, the logistics of using a melee weapon to get OAs is more ridiculous than a SK just passing a weapon back and forth between their hands.

Of course you're perfectly free to implement whatever 'fixes' you like in your games, and I don't think this would break anything (though I'm sure there would be unintended consequences) but I (could be wrong here it's been a decently long thread) don't think you've actually given a reason you want to fix this in terms of balance.

You've cited this as a reason for the ability being okay but not great, but from what I recall it was an issue about not being able to hold a blade against someone's throat that came up as to why you didn't really like the ability. Which is a RP problem, not a combat one. If your DM doesn't allow just having it there thematically... just swipe the air and put your bare hand back to their throat, it should make your point equally well: You have a weapon to their throat.

Personally something like a Soulknife parrying an attack (DD) with a blade of energy that does psychic damage is far more cinematically concerning than any potential OA problem (which tbh I think is more people not liking the wording rather than actual discontent with it in play).

[neonchameleon]

I'm not sure if there is any other historical/mythic roots, but I would encourage looking up "Psylocke" as an example of what people are probably looking for in regards to this theme.

Yes - and that's what they get. In specific the Ninja Assassin version - rather than the Phoenix Telekinesis Psy Katana version.


"The Soulknife is the highest damage Rogue for at least half the game, possibly more and only really competed with by an AT that gears itself towards combat."

Can you spell the above out for me? I must be missing something, but it seems to me the SK is no higher DPR than other rogue subclasses.

The psychic knives are good - they are effectively a fighting style and arguably the crossbow expert feat. That puts them into the range of other subclasses. But it's the level 9 Homing Blades that make the soulknife more accurate and thus gives it higher DPR.

[quindraco]

What actually breaks if the soul knife can call up his mind blade and dismiss it as non-actions? Remembering the bullet points above, which I think counter most of the claims about how it's such a huge power increase.

Nothing breaks - and soulknives don't have to be male. However, you're suggesting multiple changes at once:

1) If the mind blades are a fixed set rather than the current RAW of a new blade every time, it becomes possible to attach enchantments to it that persist, like many of the examples Dork_Forge listed.
2) If, as you imply with your use of the singular, it's also one blade whose damage depends on the action used to attack with it, rather than two distinct blades as in the RAW when used twice during any one turn, item 1 becomes even easier.
3) Item 1 also becomes easier with calling and dismissing, as it's a lot easier to enchant a weapon outside of the rogue's attack action or bonus action attack.
4) Right now how Psychic Blades interacts with Extra Attack is a hot mess, since it says "the attack", even though the Attack action can contain more than one attack, making "the attack" undefined. Under a DM that doesn't let Psychic Blades manifest more than once per Attack action, your suggestion overcomes that limitation.

None of that is broken in the sense of being overpowered, in my opinion, although it's broken in the sense of difficulty in understanding if you apply item 2. I think I already posted my suggested fix in this thread, but in case I didn't, you can just let soulknives "bond" with any two daggers (like how Eldritch Knights do) to attach their psychic blade abilities to them, and the subclass as a whole will still be well within the standard balance of Rogue subclasses.

[Segev]

Thanks for the replies to my specific question!

I think I may have forgotten to reply about the whole what changes thing, so here's some stuff off the top of my head that would then become relevant:

-Magic Weapon (can be self supplied rather easily)

-Elemental Weapon

-Improved Divine Smite

-Sacred Weapon

-SCAGtrips most likely (if your DM says they can work with Shadow Blade, then that likely applies to the SK post errata).

-Defensive Duelist

If you can keep them around, you can probably make them your Pact Weapon, so:

-Thirsting Blade

-Life Drinker

-Improved Pact Weapon

-Eldritch Smite

I don't actually have issue with any of this, on the basis that they could get any of that with other weapons. All this does is let them do psychic damage, and maybe apply their alternate CBE to it. None of which feels out of line for a subclass feature that is meant to be better than having a weapon on hand.

Heck, the Pact of the Blade boon provides a weapon, itself, and letting you merge the two features really seems like good design, to me, not something that needs to be prevented.


The overall combat bump a Soulknife gets is pretty large by the standards of Rogue subclasses, so the design intent may simply be: we don't think giant amounts of psychic damage as a reaction is okay.An odd thing to say, since psychic damage isn't THAT great a damage type compared to (say) magical piercing damage.


I do find your point about Crossbow Expert kind of moot though, not only did that Rogue invest in a feat, the logistics of using a melee weapon to get OAs is more ridiculous than a SK just passing a weapon back and forth between their hands.Not really. Just use a thrown weapon in the other hand. Order of operations matters, of course: they have to START with it in hand at the start of their turn, throw it, fire the crossbow with their other hand, reload that, then use object interaction to draw a new thrown weapon, but it works just fine. Awkward? Clunky? Sure, but so is the juggling of the melee weapon with the existing mind blade mechanics. Less clunky than the soulknife's version, really, because the awkwardness is in the mechanical order of operations, not in the narrative layer. In the narrative layer, he's throwing a weapon and firing a crossbow every round, and has a melee weapon in hand ready to throw next round in the interim.

Yes, the non-soulknife rogue spent a feat on CBE, but the soulknife spent his subclass on the feature.


Of course you're perfectly free to implement whatever 'fixes' you like in your games, and I don't think this would break anything (though I'm sure there would be unintended consequences) but I (could be wrong here it's been a decently long thread) don't think you've actually given a reason you want to fix this in terms of balance.I don't have a balance reason. That's why I'm focused more on whether the proposed fix breaks anything than on whether it solve a balance problem.

I have an aesthetic reason, centered around the current rules encouraging unintuitive and somewhat silly behavior in the narrative layer of things, which can be fixed by simply making it behave more intuitively.


I recall it was an issue about not being able to hold a blade against someone's throat that came up as to why you didn't really like the ability. Which is a RP problem, not a combat one. If your DM doesn't allow just having it there thematically... just swipe the air and put your bare hand back to their throat, it should make your point equally well: You have a weapon to their throat.Again, though, if the DM is going to have to house rule to permit you to do this RP thing, why not just have it available in hand?


Personally something like a Soulknife parrying an attack (DD) with a blade of energy that does psychic damage is far more cinematically concerning than any potential OA problem (which tbh I think is more people not liking the wording rather than actual discontent with it in play).Sorry, I seem to have missed a thread of conversation. What is DD, and how is it letting them parry with it?

Whether you should parry with it or not really depends on how much of it being a non-physical thing vs. being "a lawyer-friendly light saber" you envision it being. Can you parry with a shadow blade, now that I think about it?


Nothing breaks - and soulknives don't have to be male. However, you're suggesting multiple changes at once:

1) If the mind blades are a fixed set rather than the current RAW of a new blade every time, it becomes possible to attach enchantments to it that persist, like many of the examples Dork_Forge listed.
2) If, as you imply with your use of the singular, it's also one blade whose damage depends on the action used to attack with it, rather than two distinct blades as in the RAW when used twice during any one turn, item 1 becomes even easier.
3) Item 1 also becomes easier with calling and dismissing, as it's a lot easier to enchant a weapon outside of the rogue's attack action or bonus action attack.
4) Right now how Psychic Blades interacts with Extra Attack is a hot mess, since it says "the attack", even though the Attack action can contain more than one attack, making "the attack" undefined. Under a DM that doesn't let Psychic Blades manifest more than once per Attack action, your suggestion overcomes that limitation.

None of that is broken in the sense of being overpowered, in my opinion, although it's broken in the sense of difficulty in understanding if you apply item 2. I think I already posted my suggested fix in this thread, but in case I didn't, you can just let soulknives "bond" with any two daggers (like how Eldritch Knights do) to attach their psychic blade abilities to them, and the subclass as a whole will still be well within the standard balance of Rogue subclasses.

You're reading more into it than I intended. It being the same blade(s) or new blade(s) each time is not where I'm concerned, and I could be persuaded either way. My main problem is the inability to have a mind-blade in-hand when not actively swinging it as part of an attack action.

What I want is the soul knife to be able to have a mind blade in hand whenever he wants.

If I were really planning to tinker with it, I'd be trying to figure out a way to let the mind blade form into thieves' tools (if not any tool set), because I think having a psychic omnitool would be cool.

[Randomthom]

Got a lvl 12 Soulknife in my campaign. I allow him to summon a new blade to make an opportunity attack and nothing has felt broken.

Reliable Talent... that's broken :P

[Segev]

Got a lvl 12 Soulknife in my campaign. I allow him to summon a new blade to make an opportunity attack and nothing has felt broken.

Reliable Talent... that's broken :P

Reliable Talent + Psychic Knack has got to be amazing.

[Dork_Forge]

Thanks for the replies to my specific question!

Apologies for the delay, I had intended to reply to you a while ago and it slipped my mind as the thread progressed.


I don't actually have issue with any of this, on the basis that they could get any of that with other weapons. All this does is let them do psychic damage, and maybe apply their alternate CBE to it. None of which feels out of line for a subclass feature that is meant to be better than having a weapon on hand.


Then go ahead and apply your fix, just be aware that there may well be unintended consequences by tinkering with the design.


Heck, the Pact of the Blade boon provides a weapon, itself, and letting you merge the two features really seems like good design, to me, not something that needs to be prevented.

Merging the two would give you a pretty potent multiclass that could definitely stray into OP territory.


An odd thing to say, since psychic damage isn't THAT great a damage type compared to (say) magical piercing damage.

Practically it's a very good damage type, resistance/immunity to it is so few and far between I can't think of any times off the top of my head where it would be relevant to mention.

If it does come up the SK at least has the option of just fighting like a normal Rogue for an encounter if they want.

I think something that needs to be highlighted here is that the rules don't assume magic weapons. The moment you assume magic weapons are just going to drop favourably then things shift, but the rules intentionally don't bring that into consideration. If you assume magic weapons then all kinds of things go out of whack across the board.



Not really. Just use a thrown weapon in the other hand. Order of operations matters, of course: they have to START with it in hand at the start of their turn, throw it, fire the crossbow with their other hand, reload that, then use object interaction to draw a new thrown weapon, but it works just fine. Awkward? Clunky? Sure, but so is the juggling of the melee weapon with the existing mind blade mechanics. Less clunky than the soulknife's version, really, because the awkwardness is in the mechanical order of operations, not in the narrative layer. In the narrative layer, he's throwing a weapon and firing a crossbow every round, and has a melee weapon in hand ready to throw next round in the interim.

I don't think technically that even works, ammunition means you draw the ammunition as part of the attack, not load it after the attack. it's also wildly unwieldly as it assumes that you're just drawing and throwing dagger after dagger. I don't like that the SK would need to use another weapon to do it RAW, but I also don't think OAs matter as much as this thread seems to, if they come up anywhere near regualrly then that's DM error.


Yes, the non-soulknife rogue spent a feat on CBE, but the soulknife spent his subclass on the feature.

This is false equivalence, the Soulknife got three abilities that enchance them in various ways, whilst leaving their ASI progression unhindered. The Rogue that picked up CBE specialised more heavily in their choice and got less out of it.


I don't have a balance reason. That's why I'm focused more on whether the proposed fix breaks anything than on whether it solve a balance problem.

I have an aesthetic reason, centered around the current rules encouraging unintuitive and somewhat silly behavior in the narrative layer of things, which can be fixed by simply making it behave more intuitively.

Really depends on your players, but it should be fine for the most part.


Again, though, if the DM is going to have to house rule to permit you to do this RP thing, why not just have it available in hand?

Allowing something narratively is easier and lower impact than changing the mechanics. I let flame based Dragonborn do low key stuff with their breath like light a torch because it makes sense, that doesn't need a mechanics tweak and would be cumbersome if I wrote it that way.


Sorry, I seem to have missed a thread of conversation. What is DD, and how is it letting them parry with it?

Whether you should parry with it or not really depends on how much of it being a non-physical thing vs. being "a lawyer-friendly light saber" you envision it being. Can you parry with a shadow blade, now that I think about it?

DD= Defensive Duelist, the Psychic Blades are finesse weapons, if they remain in hand then they are eligible to be used with DD.

The light saber is a bugbear to me in this whole thing, a Soulknife shouldn't really fit in that fantasy, and imo nor should Shadow Blade. They do Psychic damage, PB specifically doesn't leave physical wounds.

The light saber already exists in D&D, it isn't a spell or class ability, it's the Sun Blade.

A light saber wouldn't be part of a 'jedi' subclass, it'd just be the weapon they used, which anyone can take from them and attempt to use themselves.

imo Jedi= Psi Warrior with a Sunblade



Got a lvl 12 Soulknife in my campaign. I allow him to summon a new blade to make an opportunity attack and nothing has felt broken.

Reliable Talent... that's broken :P


Reliable Talent + Psychic Knack has got to be amazing.

I played a SK with Reliable talent, my Stealth rolls were just insane, asking for a check I was proficient in was basically always an auto-success.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm not sure if there is any other historical/mythic roots, but I would encourage looking up "Psylocke" as an example of what people are probably looking for in regards to this theme.

The Templar Assassin from DotA uses psi blades. The Templars in XCOM do as well. The Protoss from StarCraft make extensive use of psi blades... and come to think of it, some of them are called "Templars" as well. I hadn't really noticed how that word had become conflated with psi blades in gamer culture until just this moment.

I'm not sure where the trope originated to be honest. Was Psylocke the first?

[Mitchellnotes]

The Templar Assassin from DotA uses psi blades. The Templars in XCOM do as well. The Protoss from StarCraft make extensive use of psi blades... and come to think of it, some of them are called "Templars" as well. I hadn't really noticed how that word had become conflated with psi blades in gamer culture until just this moment.

I'm not sure where the trope originated to be honest. Was Psylocke the first?

Oh, i have no idea. My response was just to highlight an example to someone saying they were having a hard time finding other examples of the concept. I think it was just the first thing that came to mind. Odd, because im playing xcom right now... though that may be because my templar doesnt have bladestorm ><

[Evaar]

Yes - and that's what they get. In specific the Ninja Assassin version - rather than the Phoenix Telekinesis Psy Katana version.


Has Psylocke ever been portrayed throwing her psi-blade? Honest question.

Every single portrayal of Psylocke I've ever seen has her using the psi-blade as a melee weapon. So if the subclass pushes you away from melee and instead incentivizes you to play at range, I would say that Psylocke is in fact not what Soulknives get.

[neonchameleon]

Has Psylocke ever been portrayed throwing her psi-blade? Honest question.

Every single portrayal of Psylocke I've ever seen has her using the psi-blade as a melee weapon. So if the subclass pushes you away from melee and instead incentivizes you to play at range, I would say that Psylocke is in fact not what Soulknives get.

Yes she has - but she's had her powers reset a couple of times. Here's an example from the 90s X-Men cartoon. (Fast forward to the 1 minute 10 mark)


https://youtu.be/yHUQSmsLtJ0?t=69

If you're used to her wielding a katana that's a different powerset.

[Evaar]

If you're used to her wielding a katana that's a different powerset.

The katana is well after my time. I'm a 90s kid.

But fair enough, this clip qualifies.