Tashalatora monk question

[lordfalco]

Hi all, i bene looking into Tashalatora monk psywarrior. But i expectedto see people use fist of the forest aswell with those 3 lvls u get alot. But i notice in all mentioned build it is not used. why is this? 3 lvls for 2x damage increase, conto ac as another bonus a sort of rage mechanic.

[Paragon]

Hey there,

Tashalatora only works with monk levels which Fist of the Forest doesn't explicitly increases so there's that.

Also, there has been some debate on these forums about the "Wis to AC" and "Con to AC" both being an "AC Bonus (Ex)" meaning they shouldn't stack (but if memory serves, they do in the exemple char for the FotF PrC)

Alternatively, if you have levels in the monk class you can don a Monk's Belt to regain the lost levels (or a Monk's Tattoo from Magic of Faerûn)

Hope that helps !

[lordfalco]

Hi Thank you.
Yes i know Tashalatora wont improve on fist but the damage gain trough fist is alot higher then the rest i assumed?
I didnt knew they wouldnt stakc on ac, if they would not then tis not orht it indeed. but if it does stack would it be viablestill? (depending on how the dm reads it)

[Darg]

Why wouldn't the AC Bonus (ex) stack? They do completely different things. This makes them different abilities despite having the same name. 3.5 is not 4e or 5e which have the same name rule. The effect stacking rules also only apply to spells and magical effects.

I think the biggest reason a lot of people forego FotF is the roleplay aspect. Primal living has easy requirements to fulfill, but the point of the class is to live more like an animal as a form of asceticism. If class roleplay isn't a thing you do then it is a fairly powerful class.

A possible combination you may like is the War Mind PRC. You can enter at monk 4 and get tashalatora at war mind 2 (cl 6)

[Crazysaneman]

Why wouldn't the AC Bonus (ex) stack? They do completely different things. This makes them different abilities despite having the same name. 3.5 is not 4e or 5e which have the same name rule. The effect stacking rules also only apply to spells and magical effects.

First to address effect stacking rules. You are incorrect that it only applies to spells and magical effects. Per the SRD:
"Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus) and circumstance bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier) however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified."

Second to address why they MAY not stack: Despite one coming from Wis and one from Con, both effects are "AC Bonus (Ex)" bonuses, and similar bonuses typically do NOT stack, except dodge and circumstance bonuses.

The test is written in the stacking rules...

To stack effects must meet the following criteria:
1.Come from different sources (which the two bonuses do)
AND
2.Have different types (they do not have different types)

Seems pretty clear to me, but if I'm missing something please enlighten me. :smallsmile:

[Gruftzwerg]

As Darg said, the AC bonuses have different bonus names (!= ability name) (dex bonus to ac, con bonus to ac, wis bonus to ac...) and thus don't interfere with each other.

FotF does stack with Tashalatora:


If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.

FotF doesn't ask why you have increased unarmed damage. It doesn't ask for monk lvls either. It just says that if you deal more damage than shown on the FotF table, then increase it to the next step a monk would get.

Imho the reason why FotF ain't mentioned is that most people would rather choose more manifester lvls to progress their unarmed damage. Further, unarmed strike progression caps at a maximum of 20 possible lvls. So it will eventually become useless (unless you plan on skipping caster levels for other stuff).

FotF is interesting when you intend to take many lvls in classes that wouldn't progress your unarmed strike, to get the last 1-2 steps of increase. Further it can be combined with either Monk's Belt (+5lvl) or Monk's Tattoo (+4lvls). See my clawlock build (see signature) as example for this, if you are interested (in non psionic builds).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

To me, the point of Tashalatora is to play a psychic warrior (or ardent) with monk features, not the other way around. Even great features like those granted by FotF compete with three levels of manifester progression, which is a lot. There's a reason Monk 1/[PsyWar or Ardent] 19 is a typical Tashalatora build.

And that doesn't get to the most annoying aspect of FotF, Primal Living (Ex). A Rope Trick, for instance, hardly counts as "natural environments" within which one can sleep while retaining class features. Long journeys over harsh terrain that require you to stock up on food become a nuisance. A friendly GM can help you re-fluff, or you can avoid the issue altogether.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Part of why people don't do much with this combo is that they want to focus as much as possible on the build's manifesting. Wis+Con to AC is pretty nice, but manifesting is usually way nicer.

[Paragon]

As Darg said, the AC bonuses have different bonus names (!= ability name) (dex bonus to ac, con bonus to ac, wis bonus to ac...) and thus don't interfere with each other.

FotF does stack with Tashalatora

Writting down something doesn't make it true ^^


FotF doesn't ask why you have increased unarmed damage. It doesn't ask for monk lvls either. It just says that if you deal more damage than shown on the FotF table, then increase it to the next step a monk would get.

This is close to a kind of a well known sophism : Socrates is mortal, a cat is mortal so Socrates is a cat
What I mean is, because it says to "pick the next step a monk would get" by no means implies a progression of monk abilities like a Mystic Henshin or other classes explicitly do.

[Gruftzwerg]

Writting down something doesn't make it true ^^



This is close to a kind of a well known sophism : Socrates is mortal, a cat is mortal so Socrates is a cat
What I mean is, because it says to "pick the next step a monk would get" by no means implies a progression of monk abilities like a Mystic Henshin or other classes explicitly do.

I have shown that the bonuses have different types (dex, con, wis) and thus can be stacked by the general rules for stacking. If you wanna read up the general stacking rules: The Basics (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)

I have shown the mechanics behind the ability to explain the claim that I made. Your "Socrates is a cat" claim lacks to show any mechanics. Your assumption is only based on linking a variable to two different stats/things. Where does this comprehend to our situation or my claim here?
So, if you have problems with my claim, pls show me where your opinion on the mechanics differ and you disagree. The problem here is a bit more complex than linking a single value to two different things and making assumptions based on that.

Further I've never claimed that "it would progress monk abilities". It just increases your unarmed damage. Either to the value shown on the table, or if your damage is higher, then it increases your damage to the next higher step a monk would get. Not more, not less.

But I somehow agree on this:

Writting down something doesn't make it true ^^
One needs to base his arguments on mechanics and logic and not sole on philosophical anecdotes. ;)

[Darg]

First to address effect stacking rules. You are incorrect that it only applies to spells and magical effects. Per the SRD:
"Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus) and circumstance bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier) however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified."

Second to address why they MAY not stack: Despite one coming from Wis and one from Con, both effects are "AC Bonus (Ex)" bonuses, and similar bonuses typically do NOT stack, except dodge and circumstance bonuses.

The test is written in the stacking rules...

To stack effects must meet the following criteria:
1.Come from different sources (which the two bonuses do)
AND
2.Have different types (they do not have different types)

Seems pretty clear to me, but if I'm missing something please enlighten me. :smallsmile:

It's specifically typed modifiers (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifierTypes) that don't stack except for circumstance and dodge. Type has nothing to do with the ability name. Whether or not you mean to, your argument means that a dex bonus to AC cannot stack with a wisdom bonus to AC which means that a monk must choose between dex or wis.

There is an argument for not stacking wisdom bonuses to AC, but that is specifically about the source of the bonus and whether or not the ability is directly translating the modifier to AC. An example of this is swordsage and monk having an AC bonus that does the same thing. Deepwarden and FotF on the other hand have abilities that do things differently. Deepwarden directly adds the con modifier to AC. Whereas FotF gives you a bonus to your AC equal to your con modifier (converts con modifier into an untyped AC bonus and then adds it to your AC total).

[Paragon]

I have shown that the bonuses have different types (dex, con, wis) and thus can be stacked by the general rules for stacking. If you wanna read up the general stacking rules: The Basics (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)

First i'm glad you get my humor :D
Second I agree with this reading and all I've said in the matter is that some people don't, it was just a warning for the OP


Further I've never claimed that "it would progress monk abilities". It just increases your unarmed damage. Either to the value shown on the table, or if your damage is higher, then it increases your damage to the next higher step a monk would get. Not more, not less.

Third, the problem I'm pointing out is that Tashalatora allows your level in your chosen psionic class to increase those monk abilities but levels in FotF don't.
They increase your unarmed damage yes, it happens to follow the same increase table as a monk yes, but Tashalatora doesn't make the FotF levels stacks with the monk + [chosen psionic class] levels for the purpose of increases "monk abilities" was all I was saying.

The Socrates thing I tried to show up was :
Tashalatora increases AC bonus, flurry of blows attacks, and unarmed damage from the monk class
FotF increases unarmed damage SIMILAR to the monk class
So Tashalatora stacks with FotF for increases AC bonus, flurry of blows attacks, and unarmed damage from the monk class

Which is not a sound argument.

Finally, the Dex to AC and Wis to AC not stacking if you count them as same typed bonuses is a very good argument for FotF adding to AC thanks for that :)

[lordfalco]

sorry all for late reply, had a busy day or 2. dont worry i read all.
Still confused on con and wis to ac if it stacks or not tbh. guess its jsut a ask dm thingie




Imho the reason why FotF ain't mentioned is that most people would rather choose more manifester lvls to progress their unarmed damage. Further, unarmed strike progression caps at a maximum of 20 possible lvls. So it will eventually become useless (unless you plan on skipping caster levels for other stuff).

how many campaigns goon to lvl 20? also isnt there an epci handbook or is that 3.0?



And that doesn't get to the most annoying aspect of FotF, Primal Living (Ex). A Rope Trick, for instance, hardly counts as "natural environments" within which one can sleep while retaining class features. Long journeys over harsh terrain that require you to stock up on food become a nuisance. A friendly GM can help you re-fluff, or you can avoid the issue altogether.
to get past that and for fluff reasons i was thinking of warforged. no need to eator sleep etc so i can bypass that. but mroe warforged for fluff (and battlefist ofc)


First to address effect stacking rules. You are incorrect that it only applies to spells and magical effects. Per the SRD:
"Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular

Second to address why they MAY not stack: Despite one coming from Wis and one from Con, both effects are "AC Bonus (Ex)" bonuses, and similar bonuses typically do NOT stack, except dodge and circumstance bonuses.

The test is written in the stacking rules...

To stack effects must meet the following criteria:
1.Come from different sources (which the two bonuses do)
AND
2.Have different types (they do not have different types)

Seems pretty clear to me, but if I'm missing something please enlighten me. :smallsmile:

i though antural artmor also stacks.


Part of why people don't do much with this combo is that they want to focus as much as possible on the build's manifesting. Wis+Con to AC is pretty nice, but manifesting is usually way nicer.

well tis not jsut ac stacking its also damage increase, rarely a character ends up on lvl 20 so fotf is a huge damage icnrease i though, i can be wrogn and that manifester is stronger, it would savefeats

[Gruftzwerg]

sorry all for late reply, had a busy day or 2. dont worry i read all.
Still confused on con and wis to ac if it stacks or not tbh. guess its jsut a ask dm thingie




how many campaigns goon to lvl 20? also isnt there an epci handbook or is that 3.0?


to get past that and for fluff reasons i was thinking of warforged. no need to eator sleep etc so i can bypass that. but mroe warforged for fluff (and battlefist ofc)



i though antural artmor also stacks.



well tis not jsut ac stacking its also damage increase, rarely a character ends up on lvl 20 so fotf is a huge damage icnrease i though, i can be wrogn and that manifester is stronger, it would savefeats

Epic Monks (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm)don't progress their unarmed damage any further:

The damage for a monk’s unarmed strike does not increase after 20th level.
But if you want to rush it (or won't play up to 20) this can be a nice option to go for max unarmed damage (via ubercharger), if you are not interested in high lvl powers.

[Psyren]

Part of why people don't do much with this combo is that they want to focus as much as possible on the build's manifesting. Wis+Con to AC is pretty nice, but manifesting is usually way nicer.

This is the answer from where I'm sitting.

(With that said, losing manifesting progression isn't nearly as heavy an opportunity cost as losing casting, thanks to augmentation letting you simulate higher spell levels.)