Palard: Tanky enough?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

We are getting ready to start a new campaign and I was thinking Fighter 2-4/ Bladesinger X, and now considering Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X. We are playing Icewind Dale, so I think we will end with about 13 total levels.
At the moment other characters look like a full wizard (maybe evoker) and some sort of net and X-Bow martial. There may be 1 or 2 more characters, so obviously that can change things, but at the moment if someone needs to plug a hole that seems to me me.
My original thought was to use my Blade Flourish for Mobile Flourish and skirmish when I have the space, as other party members are ranged anyway.
Basically my original idea with the Bladesinger seemed a bit tankier, having Shield and Absorb Elements. On the other side the Bard gets an extra HP/ level and Paladin 2 adds Bless, which is good for saves, I suppose. Nobody in our group has really tried to play a melee character from a full caster class, so I don't have a lot of experience with this. Can a Swords Bard with Plate and Smites be a front line character? Thoughts?

[Eldariel]

Sure, Paladin/Blade is mostly tankier than straight Paladin vs. attacks (Mobile Flourish in particular), though of course with a slightly smaller amount of HP (not enough to be meaningful) and worse saves. Basically, if in your experience a Fighter or a Paladin can frontline, then so can this multiclass;this is largely more, not less durable. You could further work on that tankiness by taking 1 level of Sorc for Shield and Absorb Elements or Defensive Duelist feat but by and large those should be unnecessary.

[Unoriginal]

We are getting ready to start a new campaign and I was thinking Fighter 2-4/ Bladesinger X, and now considering Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X. We are playing Icewind Dale, so I think we will end with about 13 total levels.
At the moment other characters look like a full wizard (maybe evoker) and some sort of net and X-Bow martial. There may be 1 or 2 more characters, so obviously that can change things, but at the moment if someone needs to plug a hole that seems to me me.
My original thought was to use my Blade Flourish for Mobile Flourish and skirmish when I have the space, as other party members are ranged anyway.
Basically my original idea with the Bladesinger seemed a bit tankier, having Shield and Absorb Elements. On the other side the Bard gets an extra HP/ level and Paladin 2 adds Bless, which is good for saves, I suppose. Nobody in our group has really tried to play a melee character from a full caster class, so I don't have a lot of experience with this. Can a Swords Bard with Plate and Smites be a front line character? Thoughts?

Tanking isn't about resisting taking damage, it's about protecting your teammates.

A Bladesinger isn't tanky. And a Bladesinger/Fighter 2-4 is... well, kind of the worse of both world.

A Paladin/Sword Bard can be made to tank, however. I would argue that you'd be better off going Paladin 3 so you can get your subclass. Conquest, Devotion or Redemption could work pretty well.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Sure, Paladin/Blade is mostly tankier than straight Paladin vs. attacks (Mobile Flourish in particular), though of course with a slightly smaller amount of HP (not enough to be meaningful) and worse saves. Basically, if in your experience a Fighter or a Paladin can frontline, then so can this multiclass;this is largely more, not less durable. You could further work on that tankiness by taking 1 level of Sorc for Shield and Absorb Elements or Defensive Duelist feat but by and large those should be unnecessary.

Thanks for the good ideas Eldariel; you often seem to come up with helpful advise. I figure I'm getting 1 feat out of this build for the levels of the campaign and 2 ASIs. I'm going VHuman and was thinking of PAM or Shield Master off the hop, but Defensive Dualist is worth a thought. If I can work a 2nd feat, PAM/ Sentinel is always good too. I'd just like to have 18 in casting and attack stat by 2/8 though.

[Dork_Forge]

We are getting ready to start a new campaign and I was thinking Fighter 2-4/ Bladesinger X, and now considering Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X. We are playing Icewind Dale, so I think we will end with about 13 total levels.
At the moment other characters look like a full wizard (maybe evoker) and some sort of net and X-Bow martial. There may be 1 or 2 more characters, so obviously that can change things, but at the moment if someone needs to plug a hole that seems to me me.
My original thought was to use my Blade Flourish for Mobile Flourish and skirmish when I have the space, as other party members are ranged anyway.
Basically my original idea with the Bladesinger seemed a bit tankier, having Shield and Absorb Elements. On the other side the Bard gets an extra HP/ level and Paladin 2 adds Bless, which is good for saves, I suppose. Nobody in our group has really tried to play a melee character from a full caster class, so I don't have a lot of experience with this. Can a Swords Bard with Plate and Smites be a front line character? Thoughts?

It can work, what does your statline look like? The lower hp total could bite you depending on how you set things up.

[MrStabby]

If you want a tanky combination of the two, I would suggest predominantly paladin. Conquest is very good for the role.

If nothing else the level 6 aura is exceptional for protecting your party and two+ attacks per round will grab attention. Lore bard as the bard element will help make attacks miss both you and your party. Expertise/shield master for shoving enemies prone just adds to the tankyness.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It can work, what does your statline look like? The lower hp total could bite you depending on how you set things up.

Point Buy: Chr and Str 16, Con 14, probably Wis 10, and Int/ Dex 8. (We've de-coupled Dex from initiative, so it's more viable to dump Dex)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

If you want a tanky combination of the two, I would suggest predominantly paladin. Conquest is very good for the role.

If nothing else the level 6 aura is exceptional for protecting your party and two+ attacks per round will grab attention. Lore bard as the bard element will help make attacks miss both you and your party. Expertise/shield master for shoving enemies prone just adds to the tankyness.

Shield Master is an option, particularly as we allow the Shove first. In some ways it's more versatile than PAM, like if a magic sword, axe, etc comes along.
Paladin 6 is definitely good. I'm leaning away from it because our group has had quite a few Paladins, it gets away from a mostly caster build, and I'm thinking with only 12-13 total levels, I won't have enough Bard to get higher level spells.

[Eldariel]

Thanks for the good ideas Eldariel; you often seem to come up with helpful advise. I figure I'm getting 1 feat out of this build for the levels of the campaign and 2 ASIs. I'm going VHuman and was thinking of PAM or Shield Master off the hop, but Defensive Dualist is worth a thought. If I can work a 2nd feat, PAM/ Sentinel is always good too. I'd just like to have 18 in casting and attack stat by 2/8 though.

PAM seems golden and definitely more important than DD here. DD is an interesting feat that it gets more powerful the later you take it too so for starters, PAM definitely seems solid especially on a Dueling shell.

[Unoriginal]

PAM won't help with tanking much. Sentinel could.

[Eldariel]

Shield Master is an option, particularly as we allow the Shove first. In some ways it's more versatile than PAM, like if a magic sword, axe, etc comes along.
Paladin 6 is definitely good. I'm leaning away from it because our group has had quite a few Paladins, it gets away from a mostly caster build, and I'm thinking with only 12-13 total levels, I won't have enough Bard to get higher level spells.

Higher levels in Bard should definitely pay back in spades. With the Paladin dip it lets you be a predominant damage dealer too (though your Extra Attack comes on level 8 but if you have PAM, you at least have the bonus action attack to go with it for most of your career for Smite reliability), and Flourishes are a nice rider too. Bard spells aren't all that buffy but Bless is a fine place to be at. Otherwise you probably have CC spells at your fingertips, which can be a good way to draw attention: dropping a Hypnotic Pattern or Fear or some such is like to get attention. To that end, 18 Cha is not a bad investment, especially since it adds to your Flourishes too (and Divine Sense I guess).

This also sees you have Expertise in Athletics from Bard with Strength-focus, which can be real nice as both, a control tool and a defensive option. That would lean towards Shield Master but I do think you probably want to be Smiting too and to that end, I feel PAM will carry you over those early levels better (especially since you also have Dueling; you want to land hits consistently so as to get the chance to Smite when need be). That said, if you like SM, it's totally a reasonable way to go too. You will probably want to make use of Aid - that should see to having the necessary HP barrier on higher levels.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Higher levels in Bard should definitely pay back in spades. With the Paladin dip it lets you be a predominant damage dealer too (though your Extra Attack comes on level 8 but if you have PAM, you at least have the bonus action attack to go with it for most of your career for Smite reliability), and Flourishes are a nice rider too. Bard spells aren't all that buffy but Bless is a fine place to be at. Otherwise you probably have CC spells at your fingertips, which can be a good way to draw attention: dropping a Hypnotic Pattern or Fear or some such is like to get attention. To that end, 18 Cha is not a bad investment, especially since it adds to your Flourishes too (and Divine Sense I guess).

This also sees you have Expertise in Athletics from Bard with Strength-focus, which can be real nice as both, a control tool and a defensive option. That would lean towards Shield Master but I do think you probably want to be Smiting too and to that end, I feel PAM will carry you over those early levels better (especially since you also have Dueling; you want to land hits consistently so as to get the chance to Smite when need be). That said, if you like SM, it's totally a reasonable way to go too. You will probably want to make use of Aid - that should see to having the necessary HP barrier on higher levels.

Yeah, the SM definitely works well with the expertise, though I have played a character who did that, and PAM would be new to me, so that's probably as good a reason to go that route as any.
Our group has never used Aid, as 5 hp doesn't seem that much. But I re-read the spell after your suggestion and I see the appeal: duration, lack of concentration, stacks with temporary hp, and multiply by 3... I'll consider it when I get to that level.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, the SM definitely works well with the expertise, though I have played a character who did that, and PAM would be new to me, so that's probably as good a reason to go that route as any.
Our group has never used Aid, as 5 hp doesn't seem that much. But I re-read the spell after your suggestion and I see the appeal: duration, lack of concentration, stacks with temporary hp, and multiply by 3... I'll consider it when I get to that level.

It also upcasts well. Especially since you'll often have a slot of a level you have no spells for; a level 4 Aid on character level 8 would see to 15 HP for the whole "frontline" of the party (equivalent to +2 Con bonus or the Tough feat for everyone). Normally you'd have 59 HP there; with Aid you'd go up to 74, a 25% increase. And of course two other characters get the same and the only real cost is a spell slot (of which you've got a fair few).

[Arkhios]

(We've de-coupled Dex from initiative, so it's more viable to dump Dex)

I'm merely curious, how does initiative work in your game?

[Dork_Forge]

Point Buy: Chr and Str 16, Con 14, probably Wis 10, and Int/ Dex 8. (We've de-coupled Dex from initiative, so it's more viable to dump Dex)

Regardless of initiative dumping Dex is rarely a good idea.

It could certainly work, but imo you'd need to go sword and board and focus Cha over Str. Your Bardic Inspiration pool and casting are tied to Cha, so if you want to actually stand out from just being a bad Paladin that should be your priority, especially since Font of Inpsiration will be delayed by two levels.

You'll encounter a very real hp deficit as you advance in Bard levels, investing in Tough or liberal use of Aid would be very recommended to compensate for this, or you won't be on your feet to tank for long.

[Eldariel]

You'll encounter a very real hp deficit as you advance in Bard levels, investing in Tough or liberal use of Aid would be very recommended to compensate for this, or you won't be on your feet to tank for long.

Well, that difference is 1 HP per level of Bard over Paladin (Bard is a d8 class). It's really not all that important: e.g. on level 5 it's a grand total of 3 HP deficit for example. 41 HP for Palard 5 vs. 44 HP for Paladin 5, which is a 7% difference. Add Aid and it becomes a 6% one. That's...eh, I mean it exists but it's far, far less than e.g. single attack being blocked by Mobile Flourish so it's fully possible that over a given day the Palard will be the tankier of the two. It's of course possible that damage lands so that the 3 HP would make a difference but it's quite unlikely (damage tends to come in fairly big chunks); generally hit die size is pretty irrelevant far as durability is concerned. It exists but it's a fairly small part of the whole.

[Dork_Forge]

Well, that difference is 1 HP per level of Bard over Paladin (Bard is a d8 class). It's really not all that important: e.g. on level 5 it's a grand total of 3 HP deficit for example. 41 HP for Palard 5 vs. 44 HP for Paladin 5, which is a 7% difference. Add Aid and it becomes a 6% one. That's...eh, I mean it exists but it's far, far less than e.g. single attack being blocked by Mobile Flourish so it's fully possible that over a given day the Palard will be the tankier of the two. It's of course possible that damage lands so that the 3 HP would make a difference but it's quite unlikely (damage tends to come in fairly big chunks); generally hit die size is pretty irrelevant far as durability is concerned. It exists but it's a fairly small part of the whole.

I'm aware that this opinion exists, I know that it is a popular one. I do not agree and my experiences at the table reinforce this. That 3HP can certainly make the difference, it also makes it less likely you'll instadie and is a compounding problem on this multiclass:

This is meant to be a tank, but is extremely MAD, it can't afford to bump Con above a +2, so suddenly at 5th that's:

Palard: 41HP

Straight Paladin with +3 Con (or Fighter/Ranger fulfilling this role): 49HP

Which is a substantial gap, which will just increase with every level.

This doesn't even account for the benefit of having larger hit die on short rests, which is pretty relevant since Song of Rest won't come online until mid Tier 2.

Aid helps this a lot but with pretty large caveats:

-You need to be using Tasha's optional spell list increase for the Bard

-You're going to be burning spell slots on just being up to snuff. And realistically it will be slots since Aid only lasts for 4 hours, of a potential 16 hour adventuring day, broken up with one hour short rests.

Ultimately it really depends what OP wants out of this, if it's just to be a tank with magic, how much magic is a pretty big factor. If it's to be an effective tank, I don't see the purpose of Bard over a more appropriate option like straight Paladin or Paladin/Fighter.

Just generally on the subject of this build: Mobile flourish is not tanking. If the tank is running back anyway, then there's no incentive to not just ignore them and go after the back line, which will most likely be engaged anyway since a Bardadin has no real hope of holding aggro of an entire encounter unless it's being pounded into a red smear by a single large opponent.

Defensive Flourish is a better option for tanking, tanking and skirmishing are opposites in terms of tactics.

[Eldariel]

Actually, Mobile Flourish is a great tanking tool: it enables you to not only make enemy unable to attack you, but potentially your whole party as well. That's precisely what tanks want. Defensive Flourish works too, but in different situations (every time you are attacked enemy can roll a crit; if enemy doesn't get to roll there's no risk). But yeah, the 3 HP difference might matter but it's just unlikely. And of course, both Paladin and Bard are likely to use Aid: it's just a good spell and should be cast if the party can (getting that big of an all-day buff on 3 characters in the party for one resource is just really solid).

[Kane0]

Its kinda hard to die in 5e, as long as you're making an effort to keep yourself and your allies alive you should be fine.

Some decent AC, a few buff spells and maybe a feat should do the trick, and pally/swords bard definitely qualifies if you can spare the action economy and recources

[Dork_Forge]

Actually, Mobile Flourish is a great tanking tool: it enables you to not only make enemy unable to attack you, but potentially your whole party as well. That's precisely what tanks want. Defensive Flourish works too, but in different situations (every time you are attacked enemy can roll a crit; if enemy doesn't get to roll there's no risk). But yeah, the 3 HP difference might matter but it's just unlikely. And of course, both Paladin and Bard are likely to use Aid: it's just a good spell and should be cast if the party can (getting that big of an all-day buff on 3 characters in the party for one resource is just really solid).

There's basically two interpretations of a tank:

-Someone that's just hard to kill (high AC, HP, resistance etc.) that can take a beating for the team

-Someone that can draw and hold aggro on behalf of the party

A Paladin 2/Swords Bard x does not have any features to make them sticky.

If you're retreating, then you're not getting hit, if you're not threatening an OA then there's literally no reason to pay attention to you instead of going for the squishier back line.

Skirmishing =/= tanking, it never has and it never will.

Less HP means you're easier to down and easier to kill. It also makes it more likely that healing will be less useful to keep you in the fight unless someone is good at it: It's only 3HP in your limited comparison, but if someone (maybe even you) pops a Healing Word that 3 HP can be the difference between shedding another blow or not with that healing.

Aid is great. It's also expensive to rely on all the time and a moot point unless the Bard is able to use Tasha's Optional spells list increase. I wrote a whole thing about Aid, your reply doesn't seem to take it into account whatsoever.



Oh and just because you said it: Aid is in no way an 'all day buff' unless you're casting it multiple times. If all of your day's combat fits within 4 hours of casting the spell, then that's more down to the DM than the spell being good.

[Valmark]

Oh and just because you said it: Aid is in no way an 'all day buff' unless you're casting it multiple times. If all of your day's combat fits within 4 hours of casting the spell, then that's more down to the DM than the spell being good.

Note: Aid lasts 8 hours, not 4, that tipically suffices for all day (notable exceptions being when you long rest in a dungeon or otherwise in a situation where you can expect hostiles right after you woke up).

[Theodoxus]

There's basically two interpretations of a tank:

-Someone that's just hard to kill (high AC, HP, resistance etc.) that can take a beating for the team

-Someone that can draw and hold aggro on behalf of the party

A Paladin 2/Swords Bard x does not have any features to make them sticky.

If you're retreating, then you're not getting hit, if you're not threatening an OA then there's literally no reason to pay attention to you instead of going for the squishier back line.

Skirmishing =/= tanking, it never has and it never will.

Less HP means you're easier to down and easier to kill. It also makes it more likely that healing will be less useful to keep you in the fight unless someone is good at it: It's only 3HP in your limited comparison, but if someone (maybe even you) pops a Healing Word that 3 HP can be the difference between shedding another blow or not with that healing.

Aid is great. It's also expensive to rely on all the time and a moot point unless the Bard is able to use Tasha's Optional spells list increase. I wrote a whole thing about Aid, your reply doesn't seem to take it into account whatsoever.



Oh and just because you said it: Aid is in no way an 'all day buff' unless you're casting it multiple times. If all of your day's combat fits within 4 hours of casting the spell, then that's more down to the DM than the spell being good.

Aid is 8 hours. Song of Rest comes online at Bard 2, so level 2, 3 or 4 depending on build order. Not "mid tier 2".

[Dork_Forge]

Note: Aid lasts 8 hours, not 4, that tipically suffices for all day (notable exceptions being when you long rest in a dungeon or otherwise in a situation where you can expect hostiles right after you woke up).


Aid is 8 hours. Song of Rest comes online at Bard 2, so level 2, 3 or 4 depending on build order. Not "mid tier 2".

That's my bad, I got the duration of Aid and Death Ward conflated. And mistakenly remembered Song of Rest being Bard 5th.

My points still pretty much stand unaltered though. 8 hours is a good duration, but I'll always find it oddly convenient that a party's activities fall within that window. There'd have to be very little exploration and basically no travel phases during the day for that to be the case.

Assuming 8 hours is regularly all day puts the expected breakdown into 2 hours adventure>short rest>2 hours adventure>short rest>2 hours adventure... chill out for the rest of the day?

This kind of pacing makes certain spells far, far cheaper and more valuable than they should be.

[Kane0]

It should also be noted that having tank mechanics only gets you half way to being a tank, you have to play the role of a tank too.

Your character should approach combat like a tank, making themselves known, getting in the enemy's face, keeping their attention by whatever means available. Even a Rogue can tank if the player portrays them as such and the DM isnt being antagonistic.

[Relbin]

I played a Paladin 2/Bard x in Curse of Strahd. It was a blast to play and my DM mostly avoided attacking me because of my high AC. I was using two-weapon fighting which worked well and takes advantage of the free fighting style. I mostly used concentration spells (eg bless, hypnotic pattern, greater invisibility) and smites in combat and then took a lot of utility spells (eg enhance ability, dispel magic).

If you’re in heavy armor and have a decent Con, you will be fine in melee.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I played a Paladin 2/Bard x in Curse of Strahd. It was a blast to play and my DM mostly avoided attacking me because of my high AC. I was using two-weapon fighting which worked well and takes advantage of the free fighting style. I mostly used concentration spells (eg bless, hypnotic pattern, greater invisibility) and smites in combat and then took a lot of utility spells (eg enhance ability, dispel magic).

If you’re in heavy armor and have a decent Con, you will be fine in melee.

Good to hear. It seems like it will be a good character. I'm thinking something vikingish: like a religious Skald.
The spells seem like they will work out as you say: Concentration buffs and smites with the odd utility. As I will have to upcast occasionally the smite can work for that or some other spells. Maybe as I get up in levels the odd higher power spell at the start of combat too then back to plan A.