Extend, Empower, and Maximize Spell on Spells with random duration

[Hachristo]

In the very rare instance that a spell has a random duration (ie dependent on a dice roll), such as ghoul touch, how would you go about calculating the duration if you applied the Empower, Maximize, and Extend Spell feats onto it? In the the case of Ghoul Touch, the duration is 1d6+2 rounds. My guess is that the altered duration would be 8 + (1d6+2)*0.5 + (1d6+2)*2 rounds, since metamagic feats like empower and maximize apply their effects separately.

[Troacctid]

With Extend, you would double the duration to 2d6+4 rounds. Empower and Maximize do nothing, since the spell has no variable numeric effects.

[Tzardok]

I would guess that maximize and empower have an effect, as they affect all variable parameters from what I've read. I would say that the duration would be (6 (maximized) + 1d6*0.5 (empowered) + 2) *2 (extended).

[Anthrowhale]

Whether or not the duration of an effect is a part of the effect seems to vary with interpretation. I'd go with 'yes' myself. If you go with yes, extend spell is fully cumulative with Empower and Maximize. Hence, Extended makes it (1d6+2)*2 then Maximize and Empower apply independently as normal, making it maximum of (1d6+2)*2 + 50% of (1d6+2)*2. Altogether, that's 18+1d6.

[Zanos]

If the duration is variable, empower + maximize should apply.

Empower + Maximize has a specific exception that doesn't allow you to stack them in the most beneficial order, but if there is no exception you can stack in the most beneficial order.

So I would say apply maximize and empower, then double everything from extend. Basically, I agree with Anthrowhale.

[Darg]

Rounds are not a real world unit of measurement. Therefore the multiplication would work through addition. 8 + [(1d6+2)*.5] + [1d6+2]. Minutes, hours, days would, however, actually double the maximized empowered spell duration.

[Tzardok]

Why is everyone using empower to double the +2?

[Troacctid]

Why is everyone using empower to double the +2?
Oh, that much is well established in the text of the feat itself; in the example, it multiplies the +1s from magic missile.

[Tzardok]

That sounds incredibly stupid. If a non-random modifier on damage is multiplied, I could also argue that a straight amount of damage, for example by the harm spell, should also be empowered. Just claim that it does 1d0+10 damage/level and it becomes logical. I don't think that was intended.

[InvisibleBison]

Maximize and Empower affect variable, numeric effects. The duration of a spell is not part of its effect, therefore Maximize and Empower don't apply.


Rounds are not a real world unit of measurement. Therefore the multiplication would work through addition. 8 + [(1d6+2)*.5] + [1d6+2]. Minutes, hours, days would, however, actually double the maximized empowered spell duration.

This is incorrect. Whether or not you use addition or multiplication is determined not by whether or not you're using a real world unit but whether or not you're using a real world value or an abstract value. Time is a real world value, so multiple doublings of time would combine using normal math.

[sreservoir]

That sounds incredibly stupid. If a non-random modifier on damage is multiplied, I could also argue that a straight amount of damage, for example by the harm spell, should also be empowered. Just claim that it does 1d0+10 damage/level and it becomes logical. I don't think that was intended.

Harm falls under "spells without random variables", even though "variable, numeric effects" doesn't mention anything about requiring randomness. Arguably a spell with any random variables gets all its variable, numeric effects increased, whether or not they're random...

[Anthrowhale]

Rounds are not a real world unit of measurement.
PHB page 5 says:

Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world.
implying the round is not an 'abstract value' for the purpose of the multiplication-is-addition rule.

[Darg]

Maximize and Empower affect variable, numeric effects. The duration of a spell is not part of its effect, therefore Maximize and Empower don't apply.

Not true. There are plenty of effects that don't have their duration specified in the duration line. It's actually pretty hit or miss for touch spells. Many of them have the durations in the description and the duration line.

The duration is definitely part of the effect as it tells you how long the effect lasts. A perfect example of this is the power word: pain spell.

[InvisibleBison]

Not true. There are plenty of effects that don't have their duration specified in the duration line. It's actually pretty hit or miss for touch spells. Many of them have the durations in the description and the duration line.

A spell's effect is what the spell does. A spell's duration is how long it lasts. They're different concepts, regardless of where the duration is written.


The duration is definitely part of the effect as it tells you how long the effect lasts. A perfect example of this is the power word: pain spell.

How is the duration of Power Word: Pain part of its effect? The effect of PWP is "take 1d6 damage, plus 1d6 damage per round". The duration is not part of the effect.

[Albanymusicfund]

A can of worms you have opened

[KillianHawkeye]

That sounds incredibly stupid. If a non-random modifier on damage is multiplied, I could also argue that a straight amount of damage, for example by the harm spell, should also be empowered. Just claim that it does 1d0+10 damage/level and it becomes logical. I don't think that was intended.

You can claim that harm does 1d0+10 per level, but it doesn't say that. That's just nonsense. :smallconfused: