Optional Alternate Features for Extra Attack

[Segev]

Transplanted from a thread in the 5e subforum, I figured I'd ask about balance and for further ideas here. The thread in question was discussing replacing "dead level" abilities - particularly Extra Attack - when multiclassing. My thought is that it probably would be easiest to follow the XGE and TCE idea of "optional features" that can be swapped out, specifically. That way, you can choose the optional feature instead of Extra Attack if you already have Extra Attack. I did design them such that you could take the optional feature even if you don't have Extra Attack from another class, but I don't think these need to be as powerful as Extra Attack. After all, their primary purpose is to replace it when it's a dead level due to multiclassing. Despite that, I tried to make them not specifically multiclass-only abilities, but rather things that work with the class they come from.

Balance commentary, any holes I may have missed in designing them, and even other ideas are requested. :)

Critical Advantage
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you attack with advantage and both dice would have hit, the hit is a critical hit.

Extra Collegiate Fighting Style
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn another fighting style from those offered at level 3 by your College.

Flourishing Maneuver
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn a Maneuver from the list of those offered by the Battle Master, and may use Battle Master Maneuvers as Flourishes, spending Bardic Inspiration dice as if they were Superiority Dice to do so.

Valorous Attack
Optional 6th level College of Valor feature; replaces Extra Attack.

On your turn, if you have not taken the attack action, you may use a bonus action to make an attack. If you do, you cannot take the attack action with your action on this turn.

Additional Fighting Style
Optional level 5 Fighter, Paladin, and Fighter Feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn an additional Fighting Style from amongst those offered by your class at level 1 (if a Fighter) or 2 (if a Paladin or Ranger).

Fighters who take this option but do not have Extra Attack from another source have the total number of attacks granted by the improved Extra Attack at levels 11 and 20 reduced by one.

Greater Flurry
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you use Flurry of Blows, you may make three attacks instead of two.

Stone-Breaker
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

Your martial arts die increases by one die size: d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12. In addition, your unarmed strikes count as attacks with adamantine and silver weapons.

[noob]

Transplanted from a thread in the 5e subforum, I figured I'd ask about balance and for further ideas here. The thread in question was discussing replacing "dead level" abilities - particularly Extra Attack - when multiclassing. My thought is that it probably would be easiest to follow the XGE and TCE idea of "optional features" that can be swapped out, specifically. That way, you can choose the optional feature instead of Extra Attack if you already have Extra Attack. I did design them such that you could take the optional feature even if you don't have Extra Attack from another class, but I don't think these need to be as powerful as Extra Attack. After all, their primary purpose is to replace it when it's a dead level due to multiclassing. Despite that, I tried to make them not specifically multiclass-only abilities, but rather things that work with the class they come from.

Balance commentary, any holes I may have missed in designing them, and even other ideas are requested. :)

Critical Advantage
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you attack with advantage and both dice would have hit, the hit is a critical hit.

Extra Collegiate Fighting Style
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn another fighting style from those offered at level 3 by your College.

Flourishing Maneuver
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn a Maneuver from the list of those offered by the Battle Master, and may use Battle Master Maneuvers as Flourishes, spending Bardic Inspiration dice as if they were Superiority Dice to do so.

Valorous Attack
Optional 6th level College of Valor feature; replaces Extra Attack.

On your turn, if you have not taken the attack action, you may use a bonus action to make an attack. If you do, you cannot take the attack action with your action on this turn.

Additional Fighting Style
Optional level 5 Fighter, Paladin, and Fighter Feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn an additional Fighting Style from amongst those offered by your class at level 1 (or 2, if Ranger).

Fighters who take this option but do not have Extra Attack from another source have the total number of attacks granted by Improved Extra Attack at levels 11 and 17 reduced by one.

Greater Flurry
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you use Flurry of Blows, you may make three attacks instead of two.

Stone-Breaker
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

Your martial arts die increases by one die size: d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12. In addition, your unarmed strikes count as attacks with adamantine and silver weapons.

Critical advantage is a very poor alternative for extra attack: the monster which will trigger it the most likely are weak monsters that might have died to a non critical attack (so you deal overkill damage but not kill more monsters so you kill less than with extra attack) and against the really tough monsters with high ac you meet at high level you will rarely trigger it(and so deal less damage than with extra attack) and finally it is dependant on advantage meaning that it is entirely cancelled by any disadvantage you get.
Personally I think that Valorous Attack is probably the only one I would pick instead of extra attack on a single classed character.

[Segev]

Critical advantage is a very poor alternative for extra attack: the monster which will trigger it the most likely are weak monsters that might have died to a non critical attack (so you deal overkill damage but not kill more monsters so you kill less than with extra attack) and against the really tough monsters with high ac you meet at high level you will rarely trigger it(and so deal less damage than with extra attack) and finally it is dependant on advantage meaning that it is entirely cancelled by any disadvantage you get.
Personally I think that Valorous Attack is probably the only one I would pick instead of extra attack on a single classed character.

That's fair; if you were multiclassing Barbarian with something else that gets Extra Attack, would you always choose the Barbarian's Extra Attack and the other class's alternate feature, or would Critical Advantage be worth it with another source of Extra Attack and/or be competitive with the other optional features?

While I deliberately leave it open to take these on a single-class character, they ARE designed not to be competitive with Extra Attack, but to be something you take if your Extra Attack feature would be a dead level for you for some reason.

[Composer99]

Critical Advantage
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you attack with advantage and both dice would have hit, the hit is a critical hit.

I'm not in full agreement with noob about how this feature is weak (monster AC doesn't scale as fast as PC attack modifier - for instance a typical 17th-level fighter or barbarian attacking an adult red dragon most likely has +11 to attack roll vs AC 19, for a base 65% chance to hit, right in the sweet spot for maximal gains from advantage), but I do think this is the weakest feature. In partial agreement with noob, if you have counteracting disadvantage, it feels bad. What is more, you also don't gain any benefit from this feature if you score a critical hit anyway.

By contrast, all the other features work all the time.

I'm not sure what to suggest as a replacement. Maybe give the barbarian the ability to grapple or shove as a bonus action? You wouldn't want to take that in lieu of Extra Attack, but if you're getting to 5th level barbarian as part of a multiclass build, it would be pretty decent. Although it does compete with Berserker bonus action attack or GWM/PAM bonus action attacks.



Extra Collegiate Fighting Style
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn another fighting style from those offered at level 3 by your College.

This doesn't really work because the two fighting styles you can choose from are at odds with one another - Dueling wants you to wield one weapon, Two-Weapon Fighting wants you to wield two. I suppose you can get around that through careful use of your free item interaction to draw or stow a weapon?



Flourishing Maneuver
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn a Maneuver from the list of those offered by the Battle Master, and may use Battle Master Maneuvers as Flourishes, spending Bardic Inspiration dice as if they were Superiority Dice to do so.

I like this one.



Valorous Attack
Optional 6th level College of Valor feature; replaces Extra Attack.

On your turn, if you have not taken the attack action, you may use a bonus action to make an attack. If you do, you cannot take the attack action with your action on this turn.

I like this one.



Additional Fighting Style
Optional level 5 Fighter, Paladin, and Fighter Feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn an additional Fighting Style from amongst those offered by your class at level 1 (or 2, if Ranger).

Fighters who take this option but do not have Extra Attack from another source have the total number of attacks granted by Improved Extra Attack at levels 11 and 17 reduced by one.

Some nitpicks: paladin options available also at 2nd level, and PHB fighter gets final extra attack at 20th.

The idea of this one is fine, although it feels a bit bad giving out a second fighting style as a benefit to a 10th-level character. On the other hand, that's the power/versatility trade-off of deep multiclassing.



Greater Flurry
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you use Flurry of Blows, you may make three attacks instead of two.

I like this one.



Stone-Breaker
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

Your martial arts die increases by one die size: d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12. In addition, your unarmed strikes count as attacks with adamantine and silver weapons.

I also like this one.

Overall, I most like the Valour bard option and the two monk options. Those last two options, I feel, are forcing you to make a meaningful choice between leaning into Flurry of Blows as your primary ki-use strategy or a smaller reliable damage bump if you like to use ki on other stuff. (Although I suppose your monk subclass will probably dictate that to some greater or lesser extent.)

[Old Harry MTX]

Mmm, the Valor bard option is not just 14th level War Magic, but stronger and at 5th level?

[Segev]

I'm not in full agreement with noob about how this feature is weak (monster AC doesn't scale as fast as PC attack modifier - for instance a typical 17th-level fighter or barbarian attacking an adult red dragon most likely has +11 to attack roll vs AC 19, for a base 65% chance to hit, right in the sweet spot for maximal gains from advantage), but I do think this is the weakest feature. In partial agreement with noob, if you have counteracting disadvantage, it feels bad. What is more, you also don't gain any benefit from this feature if you score a critical hit anyway.I'd actually considered, when writing it, letting it get an extra die of damage if it crit by the usual means AND by both hitting, but I thought that a bit over the top. As-is, it is an extra way to crit, so you can crit if only one of the dice rolls a 20, or if both dice roll "sufficiently high." If both happen, you still crit. Just like, if both dice roll "20" with Advantage, you still crit only the once.

Re-reading noob's post, I kind-of see what he means about it having an overkill problem. I do like tying it to Advantage, because of Reckless Attack, but maybe that's the wrong way to go with it.


By contrast, all the other features work all the time.True. Or at least can be triggered at the player's desire, in the case of Greater Flurry. Of course, with Reckless Attack, unless the Barbarian is suffering Disadvantage from another source, he can trigger it at his leisure, too.


I'm not sure what to suggest as a replacement. Maybe give the barbarian the ability to grapple or shove as a bonus action? You wouldn't want to take that in lieu of Extra Attack, but if you're getting to 5th level barbarian as part of a multiclass build, it would be pretty decent. Although it does compete with Berserker bonus action attack or GWM/PAM bonus action attacks.
As a complete alternative (or as an additional option; it's not like there's a limit to the number of options that can be provided, so long as we remember they can't take more than one from a single class):

Cleave Through
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack
When you reduce a creature to 0 hp with a melee weapon attack, you may roll a new attack with the same weapon against another creature in reach. If you hit, any damage in excess of that needed to reduce the first target to 0 hp is dealt to the new target. If this new hit is a critical hit, you may also roll damage normally.

(Alternative-alternatively, could make it only work on Advantaged attacks and let the second die go to the second target.)


This doesn't really work because the two fighting styles you can choose from are at odds with one another - Dueling wants you to wield one weapon, Two-Weapon Fighting wants you to wield two. I suppose you can get around that through careful use of your free item interaction to draw or stow a weapon?Yeah, that's why I have two for the College of Swords Bard. If they really want both, they can get them, but I expect most would take Flourishing Maneuver, instead.


Some nitpicks: paladin options available also at 2nd level, and PHB fighter gets final extra attack at 20th.Oops, so they do. I'll edit the opening post.


The idea of this one is fine, although it feels a bit bad giving out a second fighting style as a benefit to a 10th-level character. On the other hand, that's the power/versatility trade-off of deep multiclassing.I mean, Champion Fighter gives a second fighting style as a thing. Some of them really are pretty good. I'm open to more ideas for all three classes, though.


Overall, I most like the Valour bard option and the two monk options. Those last two options, I feel, are forcing you to make a meaningful choice between leaning into Flurry of Blows as your primary ki-use strategy or a smaller reliable damage bump if you like to use ki on other stuff. (Although I suppose your monk subclass will probably dictate that to some greater or lesser extent.)Probably will, but yeah, you're right, they do make for a nice way to determine how to customize your monk further. Technically, Stone-Breaker is one that might be worth picking even if you are single-classed - not because it's powerful compared to Extra Attack, but just because it's not only "extra attack, but weaker." Greater Flurry is "Extra Attack, but weaker, except that it stacks with Extra Attack," since it is just +1 attack, but only under certain circumstances.

The Bard Colleges were the ones I had the most trouble coming up with ideas for.


Mmm, the Valor bard option is not just 14th level War Magic, but stronger and at 5th level?War Magic is level 7, but yes, it is similar, but stronger, and at 6th level. However, if you're GETTING it at 6th level, you're giving up Extra Attack entirely, while the Eldritch Knight has Extra Attack at level 5 and gets War Magic at level 7. If you were to have Extra Attack and Valorous Attack, you'd be a minimum of 11th level.

A straight Valor Bard taking this option gives up Extra Attack for "non-attack action plus unrestricted bonus action attack." Which does let him cast a spell and make a weapon attack, which is nice, but it does cost the bonus action, so it's not directly better than Extra Attack, either.

[Kane0]

Cleave Through
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack
When you reduce a creature to 0 hp with a melee weapon attack, you may roll a new attack with the same weapon against another creature in reach. If you hit, any damage in excess of that needed to reduce the first target to 0 hp is dealt to the new target. If this new hit is a critical hit, you may also roll damage normally.


I believe this already an optional rule in the DMG

[Old Harry MTX]

War Magic is level 7, but yes, it is similar, but stronger, and at 6th level. However, if you're GETTING it at 6th level, you're giving up Extra Attack entirely, while the Eldritch Knight has Extra Attack at level 5 and gets War Magic at level 7. If you were to have Extra Attack and Valorous Attack, you'd be a minimum of 11th level.

A straight Valor Bard taking this option gives up Extra Attack for "non-attack action plus unrestricted bonus action attack." Which does let him cast a spell and make a weapon attack, which is nice, but it does cost the bonus action, so it's not directly better than Extra Attack, either.

Sorry, I means Valor Bard's Battle Magic, at 14th.

[Segev]

I believe this already an optional rule in the DMG


Sorry, I means Valor Bard's Battle Magic, at 14th.

Hm. I will have to rethink those, then.

[noob]

Hm. I will have to rethink those, then.

maybe make so that when the cleaving optional rule is used the cleave ability of the barbarian instead becomes "you can use the same attack roll as the roll that allowed to finish the monster for the cleaving attack"
Or even "Instead of doing a cleaving attack deal the leftover damage to a monster within range"

[Segev]

What about...

Ruthless Advantage
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack
When you hit with a melee attack made with Advantage, you may compare the other die to the AC of a second target in reach. If it would hit, you may apply the damage from this attack to both targets.

[quindraco]

Valorous Attack
Optional 6th level College of Valor feature; replaces Extra Attack.

On your turn, if you have not taken the attack action, you may use a bonus action to make an attack. If you do, you cannot take the attack action with your action on this turn.

Extra Collegiate Fighting Style
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn another fighting style from those offered at level 3 by your College.

Additional Fighting Style
Optional level 5 Fighter, Paladin, and Fighter Feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn an additional Fighting Style from amongst those offered by your class at level 1 (if a Fighter) or 2 (if a Paladin or Ranger).

Fighters who take this option but do not have Extra Attack from another source have the total number of attacks granted by the improved Extra Attack at levels 11 and 20 reduced by one.

Flourishing Maneuver
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn a Maneuver from the list of those offered by the Battle Master, and may use Battle Master Maneuvers as Flourishes, spending Bardic Inspiration dice as if they were Superiority Dice to do so.


These can all be tightened up at once, which also covers the balance issues with your Valor ability:

Additional Fighting Style
Optional Feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You gain the Fighting Initiate feat; if your class or subclass offers fighting styles, you may choose one of them instead of one available to the fighter class. If you are a monk, your unarmed strike counts as a single melee weapon you are armed with for the purposes of any fighting style.

Fighters who take this option but do not have Extra Attack from another source have the total number of attacks granted by the improved Extra Attack at levels 11 and 20 reduced by one.

Additional Maneuver
Optional feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You gain the Martial Adept feat. If you are a Bard, you may forego gaining a superiority die in exchange for using Bardic Inspiration dice as superiority dice. If you are a Monk, you may forego gaining a superiority die in exchange for spending 3 ki points to use your Martial Arts die as a superiority die, and your unarmed strike counts as a single melee weapon you are armed with for the purposes of any maneuver.

Fighters who take this option but do not have Extra Attack from another source have the total number of attacks granted by the improved Extra Attack at levels 11 and 20 reduced by one.



Greater Flurry
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you use Flurry of Blows, you may make three attacks instead of two.

Stone-Breaker
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

Your martial arts die increases by one die size: d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12. In addition, your unarmed strikes count as attacks with adamantine and silver weapons.

These are great, but I'd offer both at once, given how much damage you're trying to compete with - e.g. an L20 monk is 3*10.5=31.5, 42 with flurry. Giving up EA for both abilities makes the monk 2*11.5=23, 46 with flurry - far more comparatively balanced, since ki points are finite (and bonus actions are more limited than actions).



Critical Advantage
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you attack with advantage and both dice would have hit, the hit is a critical hit.


The idea here is great, but it feels bad whenever you would have crit anyway - and your DPR drops through the floor, since static amounts of damage, like from Rage, don't crit. I suggest this:

Critical Advantage
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack.

Your rage damage becomes the equivalent die, rather than a static amount - 2 becomes 1d4, 3 becomes 1d6, and 4 becomes 1d8. While raging, you may apply the same effect to your Strength bonus to damage, provided it is at least +1 (becomes +1d2). If your Strength bonus is greater than +6, you may leave its benefit as +6 or +1d12 and use any remaining benefit to increase your rage damage by the remainder - so if your Strength bonus is +8 and your Rage damage is +1d8, the net effect on damage with both can be +1d12+1d12.

When you attack with advantage and both dice would have hit, count up how many dice would have critically hit, and apply an effect based on how many:

0: The hit becomes a critical hit.
1: The critical hit rolls the damage dice thrice, not twice.
2: The critical hit rolls the damage dice four times, not twice.

[Segev]

These can all be tightened up at once, which also covers the balance issues with your Valor ability:

Additional Fighting Style
Optional Feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You gain the Fighting Initiate feat; if your class or subclass offers fighting styles, you may choose one of them instead of one available to the fighter class. If you are a monk, your unarmed strike counts as a single melee weapon you are armed with for the purposes of any fighting style.

Fighters who take this option but do not have Extra Attack from another source have the total number of attacks granted by the improved Extra Attack at levels 11 and 20 reduced by one.On the one hand, this is fewer words by making it all combined into one feature, and expands easily to additional subclasses or even classes that get Extra Attack. On the other, having them geared for specific (sub)classes, no matter how similar they were, follows existing structure and also ensures they fit the specific one offered.

This does address the College of Swords issue with having two incompatible fighting styles, though I only included that one for them as a "well, maybe somebody really was torn for some specific build" thing.

I also am a little leery that this makes the Fighter the one most limited/punished by it, while other (sub)classes can access Fighter-only ones but keep their own exclusivity. Am I over-valuing this?


Additional Maneuver
Optional feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You gain the Martial Adept feat. If you are a Bard, you may forego gaining a superiority die in exchange for using Bardic Inspiration dice as superiority dice. If you are a Monk, you may forego gaining a superiority die in exchange for spending 3 ki points to use your Martial Arts die as a superiority die, and your unarmed strike counts as a single melee weapon you are armed with for the purposes of any maneuver.

Fighters who take this option but do not have Extra Attack from another source have the total number of attacks granted by the improved Extra Attack at levels 11 and 20 reduced by one.I like the idea for the monk's ki letting them use the MA die, but 3 ki seems very expensive. I think I understand why: at level 15, this lets a monk use 5 "superiority dice" through his ki, which is how many a 15th level battle master would have. But prior to level 15, that puts the monk WAY behind, to the point that the maneuvers just aren't good enough to be worth it. And after level 15, the monk is back to doing better than the battle master in numbers of times he can use it, even at this level.

I'd like to say it should be 1 ki at level 5, 2 ki at level 7, and 3 ki at level 15, but despite the fact that this is still overall more uses per day as they level up, the bump DOWN at level 7 and 15 feels bad and creates an anti-scaling that's clunky. Given that this is actually designed for somebody who took at least 5 levels of another class, they may never hit level 15, and if they do, they're hitting it at level 20, too. But that also means they're much more ki-starved than most monks of their level all their career.

Maybe 2 ki is the right compromise? That's 2 uses at level 5 monk (plus 1 more ki for something else), and 5 uses at level 10 monk (which matches level 15 battle master). It gets more uses than battle master if he pushes past that point, especially if he's also already a battle master 3 or 5 or 7, but I think it works out okay.


These are great, but I'd offer both at once, given how much damage you're trying to compete with - e.g. an L20 monk is 3*10.5=31.5, 42 with flurry. Giving up EA for both abilities makes the monk 2*11.5=23, 46 with flurry - far more comparatively balanced, since ki points are finite (and bonus actions are more limited than actions).Hm. Remember that these aren't meant to be good enough to replace Extra Attack such that they're tempting choices for somebody who is playing a straight monk. I suppose they could be, but I worry that makes them broken in their intended use: as a substitute when multiclassing would make (in this case) level 5 monk a semi-dead level. (Level 5 monk already gives you Stunning Strike, which might honestly be worth it even with Extra Attack being "dead" for you.) This is why I have it as two separate feature options: in intended use, you'll already have Extra Attack when you pick one of these. So combining them feels like a bit much, to me.

I am open to being convinced otherwise, though. Should you be able to get comparable extra damage to Extra Attack when you already have Extra Attack? Would this go even further (making it definitely OP), since the increased damage die would benefit the base Extra Attack as well?


The idea here is great, but it feels bad whenever you would have crit anyway - and your DPR drops through the floor, since static amounts of damage, like from Rage, don't crit. I suggest this:

Critical Advantage
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack.

Your rage damage becomes the equivalent die, rather than a static amount - 2 becomes 1d4, 3 becomes 1d6, and 4 becomes 1d8. While raging, you may apply the same effect to your Strength bonus to damage, provided it is at least +1 (becomes +1d2). If your Strength bonus is greater than +6, you may leave its benefit as +6 or +1d12 and use any remaining benefit to increase your rage damage by the remainder - so if your Strength bonus is +8 and your Rage damage is +1d8, the net effect on damage with both can be +1d12+1d12.

When you attack with advantage and both dice would have hit, count up how many dice would have critically hit, and apply an effect based on how many:

0: The hit becomes a critical hit.
1: The critical hit rolls the damage dice thrice, not twice.
2: The critical hit rolls the damage dice four times, not twice.It took me a bit to see what you were really going for, here: exploiting the dice get doubled on a crit. It's an interesting idea, but it feels like it's way too complicated.

[Kane0]

I also am a little leery that this makes the Fighter the one most limited/punished by it, while other (sub)classes can access Fighter-only ones but keep their own exclusivity. Am I over-valuing this?

I dont think anyone else gets access to a style the fighter doesnt, except for the paladin and ranger's cantrip granting styles.



It took me a bit to see what you were really going for, here: exploiting the dice get doubled on a crit. It's an interesting idea, but it feels like it's way too complicated.

It can be simplified to:
static rage damage becomes rage damage dice (see chart).
and
If you have advantage and would have hit with both rolls you crit.

I would be tempted to make it one die size larger than a straight conversion eg +2 becomes d6

There is an extra bit at the end there which gives you supercrits in the case of advantage getting you a natural 20 (so you get a benefit out of a roll that would have been a crit anyways) but im not sure that part is super necessary, especially if you round up the die size.

[Segev]

I dont think anyone else gets access to a style the fighter doesnt, except for the paladin and ranger's cantrip granting styles.Right, but there are ones the Fighter has that others do not. Like Unarmed, from TCE. So by opening up all the fighter's options to any of the three "fighter type" classes in lieu of their Extra Attack, you're giving the non-Fighters access to Fighting Styles they couldn't otherwise get, while the Fighter doesn't get any such special access. My notion was to limit them to the fighting styles of the classes in question.


It can be simplified to:
static rage damage becomes rage damage dice (see chart).
and
If you have advantage and would have hit with both rolls you crit.

I would be tempted to make it one die size larger than a straight conversion eg +2 becomes d6

There is an extra bit at the end there which gives you supercrits in the case of advantage getting you a natural 20 (so you get a benefit out of a roll that would have been a crit anyways) but im not sure that part is super necessary, especially if you round up the die size.On the one hand, I like the concept, here, but for some reason it feels "off" to me as a 5e mechanic. I've been trying to put my finger on why, or convince myself it's fine, but neither is happening. So I will keep trying to figure this "gut feeling" of mine out.

[Yakk]

Critical Advantage
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you attack with advantage and both dice would have hit, the hit is a critical hit.
Way, way too good. "If you hit with advantage, and both dice are the same value, the hit becomes a critical hit. In addition, when you make a reckless attack, you deal 1 extra weapon die on damage on a critical hit".


Extra Collegiate Fighting Style
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn another fighting style from those offered at level 3 by your College.
Junk really. The College of Swords fighting styles don't really "stack" well.

You could just give an ASI, which the bard can spend on a feat.

Alternatively, "when you strike a critical hit, you may use a Blade Flourish without expending a Bardic Inspiration die, even if you have already used Blade Flourish this turn". Not that strong, but flavorful.


Flourishing Maneuver
Optional 6th level College of Swords feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn a Maneuver from the list of those offered by the Battle Master, and may use Battle Master Maneuvers as Flourishes, spending Bardic Inspiration dice as if they were Superiority Dice to do so.
Ok


Valorous Attack
Optional 6th level College of Valor feature; replaces Extra Attack.

On your turn, if you have not taken the attack action, you may use a bonus action to make an attack. If you do, you cannot take the attack action with your action on this turn.
Yes, too strong. How about stealing the Bladesinger Extra Attack feature?

"When you take the attack action, you can replace your first attack with Vicious Mockery. If a creature takes damage from the Vicious Mockery, you have advantage on attacks on them until the end of your turn."

Dashing Swordsman amright?

Additional Fighting Style
Optional level 5 Fighter, Paladin, and Fighter Feature; replaces Extra Attack.

You learn an additional Fighting Style from amongst those offered by your class at level 1 (if a Fighter) or 2 (if a Paladin or Ranger).
Again, a pretty poor feature. Better than the Swords case, as you can grab defensive for +1 AC?

Fighters who take this option but do not have Extra Attack from another source have the total number of attacks granted by the improved Extra Attack at levels 11 and 20 reduced by one.
This is also awkwardly worded.


Greater Flurry
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you use Flurry of Blows, you may make three attacks instead of two.
Really strong. Almost as good as EA to a mid-high level monk. Then again, monk's don't multiclass well.

Stone-Breaker
Optional level 5 Monk feature; replaces Extra Attack.

Your martial arts die increases by one die size: d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12. In addition, your unarmed strikes count as attacks with adamantine and silver weapons.
Pretty good. There isn't another way to get a d12 MA die. Still weaker than EA, but...

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Overall, you should decide how good the substitution should be.

[Segev]

Overall, you should decide how good the substitution should be.

While I won't balk at "as good as EA," I'm actually aiming for "not quite as good as EA, but definitely thematic to the class and better than the nothing you get if you've already got EA from another class."

[Arkhios]

Just to clarify, are these intended as stand-alone alternate features for Extra Attack, or only available when you would otherwise gain an overlapping Extra Attack from another class when Multiclassing?

As stand-alone features they might require further inspection and balancing effort, but if these are intended as having the multiclassing clause, they're all very good in my honest opinion, because otherwise most of these levels are dead.

[Segev]

Just to clarify, are these intended as stand-alone alternate features for Extra Attack, or only available when you would otherwise gain an overlapping Extra Attack from another class when Multiclassing?

As stand-alone features they might require further inspection and balancing effort, but if these are intended as having the multiclassing clause, they're all very good in my honest opinion, because otherwise most of these levels are dead.

The intent is for them to be only attractive if you already have Extra Attack, but I am deliberately leaving them available for taking as stand-alone replacements, in part because some builds may refer getting one class up past five before another, but ever the alternate feature for the first class over the second.

But they are intended to be undertuned compared to Extra Attack. I am okay with it if they are actually independently worth the trade, but I prefer to err on the side of not being worth it (unless the level is effectively dead due to there already being an extra attack feature in your build from another class).

Does that make sense?

[Arkhios]

The intent is for them to be only attractive if you already have Extra Attack, but I am deliberately leaving them available for taking as stand-alone replacements, in part because some builds may refer getting one class up past five before another, but ever the alternate feature for the first class over the second.

But they are intended to be undertuned compared to Extra Attack. I am okay with it if they are actually independently worth the trade, but I prefer to err on the side of not being worth it (unless the level is effectively dead due to there already being an extra attack feature in your build from another class).

Does that make sense?

That does make a certain amount of sense, indeed. And, it does bring up some interesting ideas regarding some combinations to deliberately avoid taking extra attack feature. Such as, if you're a spellcaster and wanted to take a dip in some martial class even though you're not exactly "built" to focus on weapon combat, such as maybe a cleric/monk, for unarmored defense and such.

[Yakk]

My biggest problem is that design wise, offering a "trap option" is a bad design choice.

Second, your power level is a huge window: "Better than literally nothing, not as good as one of the best features in 5e". Which sort of makes it easy for you, but sort of sucks for people checking balance and/or players.

I'd say that everything you wrote is better than absolutely nothing, and none of them are better than extra attack. Compared to each other, they vary in power by a huge factor, sometimes even when comparing two alternatives for one class ability.

It is hard to find the right baseline. I mean, I guess Martial 5/Martial 5 compared to Martial 10 might be the right way to look at it?

The martial classes are Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin. 4 choose 2 is 6.

This makes 6 5/5 split multiclasses:
RF
RB
RP
FB
FP
BP

For fun, we'll make it 5/6 instead of 5/5, as 11 is an inflection point level.

For each multiclass, compare it to its two base classes.

RF vs R11 or F11
RB vs R11 or B11
RP vs R11 or P11
FB vs F11 or B11
FP vs F11 or P11
BP vs B11 or P11

If none of those overshadow the pure-class build, nor completely suck, then I'd argue balance is in a good state. So that is 10 builds to make and 12 comparisons.

...

Then, in my opinion, the "subclass extra attack" stuff is gravy. We'd have a solid core class baseline to work from.

[Segev]

It's not meant to be a "Trap option," and if I were to write a supplement rather than just a little forum post on it, I'd probably include discussion of what it's intended for with warnings about relative power levels. It is meant to be that Extra Attack is just better, and some of the apparent trap options are more there for completeness than because I think they're a good idea. If you have that one weird Sword Bard build that really wants both duelist and dual wielding, why should you not be allowed to take it, perhaps because you're a monk/bard or something, why shouldn't you be able to trade your Bardic Extra Attack for the other fighting style rather than being forced to multiclass a third time into fighter?

In other words, I am pretty sure I see your point, and I actually agree. It's not meant to be a "trap" so much as it is that they seem like things that should exist as options, in the rare cases they might be useful.

Well, that, and they're meant very much for builds that would otherwise have dead levels when EA comes up for the second time. Removal of a "feels bad" barrier to going past level 4 in several classes if you're multiclassing into them.

The analysis of what class combinations have to stand up to is a good one. I agree on level 11 being the right break point, not the least because that's when 11 levels of Fighter actually gets you "stacking" Extra Attack.

[Yakk]

Now, my next problem is that this doesn't fix the EA problem.

The EA problem is two fold.

The first problem is in multiclassing before level 5. Every level of such multiclassing delays EA, which is a huge power bump. An even split PC (say, Paladin/Barbarian) waits until level 9 to get their 2nd attack. They are quite frankly gimped.

Even a splash is expensive.

The second problem, which is partly addresses, is that hitting level 5 in two martial classes gives you a dead level.

This starts happening at level 10. At level 11, you'd get your T3 feature if you where single classed; under this system, you get an intentionally weak level 5 replacement for EA, and one level 6 feature, instead.

It is better than just getting a level 6 feature instead of level 10+11 features, I suppose. But it really isn't very good.

You'd have to have two sets of level 6+ features (but not much further! There aren't that many levels, after all) you want that are a serious draw to really justify reaching level 5 in two different martial classes.

And I'm coming up blank. I mean, I know one; Paladin cha-to-saves at level 6. Most of the rest of level 6-10 features are relatively pedestrian, honestly. Even the T2 martial subclass features tend to be a flavourful splash ability, and less character defining than the T1 abilities.

In other words, maybe we should be looking at 6/6 instead of 5/6 or 5/5 for the MC build to compare with a single-classed build. If someone wanted to get 5/7, they could have just gone 1-3/7 instead (as level 4 is an ASI, and 5 is this feature, if the level 6-7 feature in the 2nd class aren't the draw, why not just stop?)

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My variant of this problem is to punt a bit.

MC Early Extra Attack: If you have two classes which have a level 5 feature "Extra Attack" and don't have "Extra Attack", and their levels sum to 5 or more, you can delay class features (except spellcasting progression) from one of those two classes by 1 level to gain "Extra Attack"

If you later gain "Extra Attack" as a class feature, you stop delaying those class features.

MC Extra Extra Attack: If you gain "Extra Attack" from more than one class, you can choose all but one of those classes to gain class features (except spellcasting) 1 level higher than you should.

But I'll admit yours is more fun to design.

[Segev]

I think part of the trade-off of multiclassing is that you get more of the front-loaded, highly-flavorful level 2-3 features that come with archetype selection, but don't get the tier 3+ features until late, if at all. The way 5e is designed, I suspect you won't see much in the way of even-split multiclassing that does class a/class b/class a/class b progression. You're likely to see 1-3 levels of one class, then at least 5 levels of something that gives EA, then it'll continue the other one for a bit. Maybe as much as 5 levels of the EA class first, then multiclassing for three levels to get another archetype feature before deciding between taking 4 (for a feat) in the newer class or going back to the first one, and then maybe 5 in the newer class...but here's where it becomes a wall, even if you MIGHT have thought a level 8-11 feature was interesting in the second class, you probably don't want the fully dead level 5.

Aside from agreeing that this is a fun mental exercise and design game, I like the replacement features approach over a "delay progression to slot in EA" approach such as you suggest because it fits the design paradigm of 5e better. 5e isn't really designed to "delay" a progression to move a feature "early" based on multiclass combinations. The closest it comes is multiclassing spellcasters, and even that's just a specialized means of calculating spell slots based on combined levels, not a way to move features up or down the progression.

[Person_Man]

If I'm DM and one of my players wants to multiclass with two classes that obviously don't work together from a crunch perspective, and/or result in dead levels, I'd let them just make a custom DM approved class that lets them pick abilities from both classes at reasonable levels. So for example, consider the thematically appropriate but awful crunch combination of Beastmaster Ranger/Oath of the Ancients Paladin. I'd let them do something like:

1: Divine Sense, Natural Explorer
2: Fighting Style, Divine Smite, Spellcasting at normal half-caster progression (with custom DM approved spell list)
3: Ranger Animal Companion, Divine Health
4: Ability Score Improvement
5: Extra Attack
6: Aura of Protection
7: Exceptional Training, Aura of Warding
8: Ability Score Improvement
9: Landstride
10: Aura of Courage
etc.

Your Auras are limited to yourself and companion only (not a 10 ft or whatever radius), but other passive abilities like Divine Health and Landstride apply to your Companion. Your Companion can Divine Smite, drawing on your pool of spells, but you are limited to 1 Smite per round.

If the multiclassing is just an attempt to squeeze more average damage per round out, fine. But then losing the Extra Attack is the price they pay. (Which is why its RAW).

[GalacticAxekick]

Critical Advantage
Optional 5th level Barbarian feature; replaces Extra Attack.

When you attack with advantage and both dice would have hit, the hit is a critical hit.
Way, way too good. Not really. It's weak at low levels, and strong at high levels.

Extra Attack is always active. If one of your two attack rolls hits, you deal up to 1d12+Strength+Rage damage (which is 1d12+4+2 for a level 5 Barbarian. 12.5 damage on average). If both attack rolls hit, you deal twice as much (25 damage on average)

Critical Advantage is sometimes active. If one of your two attack rolls hits, you deal up to 1d12+Strength+Rage damage (which is 1d12+4+2 for a level 5 Barbarian. 12.5 damage on average) If both attack rolls hit, you deal up to 2d12+Strength+Rage damage (which is 2d12+3+2 for a level 5 Barbarian. 19 damage on average).

By level 17, Extra Attack Barbarian deals 1d12+5+4 (15.5 average) when one attack hits, and twice as much (31 average) when both hit.

Meanwhile Crit Advantage Barbarian deals 1d12+5+4 (15.5 average) when one roll hits, and 5d12+5+4 (41.5 average) when both hit (thanks to Brutal Critical 3).

I think that's actually a really good feature! Simple, thematic, relatively balanced, and interesting to build around!

[noob]

Not really. It's weak at low levels, and strong at high levels.

Extra Attack is always active. If one of your two attack rolls hits, you deal up to 1d12+Strength+Rage damage (which is 1d12+4+2 for a level 5 Barbarian. 12.5 damage on average). If both attack rolls hit, you deal twice as much (25 damage on average)

Critical Advantage is sometimes active. If one of your two attack rolls hits, you deal up to 1d12+Strength+Rage damage (which is 1d12+4+2 for a level 5 Barbarian. 12.5 damage on average) If both attack rolls hit, you deal up to 2d12+Strength+Rage damage (which is 2d12+3+2 for a level 5 Barbarian. 19 damage on average).

By level 17, Extra Attack Barbarian deals 1d12+5+4 (15.5 average) when one attack hits, and twice as much (31 average) when both hit.

Meanwhile Crit Advantage Barbarian deals 1d12+5+4 (15.5 average) when one roll hits, and 4d12+5+4 (41.5 average) when both hit (thanks to Brutal Critical 3).

I think that's actually a really good feature! Simple, thematic, relatively balanced, and interesting to build around!

It is not as reliable as you imagine: while barbarians can create advantage on demand, Disadvantage cancels advantage.
Also you do still make critical hits with the regular attack and the extra attack.

[GalacticAxekick]

It is not as reliable as you imagine: while barbarians can create advantage on demand, Disadvantage cancels advantage.
Also you do still make critical hits with the regular attack and the extra attack.I know that its unreliable. I specifically said "Extra Attsck is always active" and "Critical Advantage is sometimes active" to highlight exactly that.

You're just making my point: that Critical Advantage is not "way way too good"

[Segev]

The big thing with Critical Advantage is that it is pretty much intended to be taken when it would stack with Extra Attack. So, say, a Paladin 5 / Barbarian 5. So it being less potent than Extra Attack is quite deliberate, especially since it's arguably on par with Extra Attack (2) that Fighter 11 gets when combined with any base Extra Attack. The unreliability based on Disadvantage hampering it cuts it back a bit more. "Too much" or not is the question.

[Catullus64]

Unintended utility value to Critical Advantage: it's now the most efficient way to deduce enemy Armor Class, especially since you can get reliable advantage from Reckless Attack. I don't believe there's any game feature extant which hinges upon the "discarded" result of an advantaged or disadvantaged roll; now each attack gives you potentially twice as much information. Barbarians are now the foremost combat analysts.

I think Critical Advantage is massively tempting and valuable for a Rogue, although in most games five levels of Barbarian is a sufficiently large investment that it doesn't matter too much; the lost Sneak Attack dice will compensate for the gains. But in a high-level game, the increased crit potential for a Sneak Attack significantly outweighs the value of an extra attack. Especially since ratios of attack bonuses to armor class start to bias towards the attacker at higher levels...