Non-Evil Warlock

[Stryyke]

I've always wanted to do a long-term warlock, but most of the games I'm in discourage evil characters. I noticed celestial warlocks, and think that could fit pretty well. Specifically, I want to do a cantrip/spellcasting focused warlock. Perhaps even a no EB build. What are people's thoughts on something like that?

[Kuulvheysoon]

I mean, nothing codes Warlocks as evil. Even going off of the PHB subclasses, well-intentioned deals with a devil (Ghost Rider, off the top of my head) are a classic trope for the Fiendlock, Great Old One warlocks might not have necessarily had much of a choice in the deal (book of forbidden lore, wrong place wrong time, etc...) and Feylocks? that could literally be anything. Making a promise that you don't realise the full extent of, or even something as simple as accepting a gift.

Back on topic, non-EB warlocks are absolutely possible, though people tend to go melee if they ignore that cantrip.

[Unoriginal]

I've always wanted to do a long-term warlock, but most of the games I'm in discourage evil characters. I noticed celestial warlocks, and think that could fit pretty well. Specifically, I want to do a cantrip/spellcasting focused warlock. Perhaps even a no EB build. What are people's thoughts on something like that?

Warlocks don't have to be evil, and have no more reason to be evil than any other character class. There's good Fiend warlocks, good Great Old One warlocks, good Fathomless warlocks, etc.

Not-EB Warlock is possible, and Celestial is one of the easiest way to do it. I have a fondness for the idea of a Githyanki Celestial Pact of the Blade Warlock who Green Flame Blade with a greatsword, but I never got to try it out in a game.

[Kvess]

You don’t have to be evil to be a warlock, and a number of the patrons aren’t explicitly evil.

A devil acting as a Fiend Patron may try to tempt you to do something unsavoury in exchange for a favour, but many baatezu also see themselves as a necessary part of the multiverse — fighting the Blood War, keeping all of creation from falling into the all-consuming Abyss, jailing the souls of the damned. The Great Old Ones are evil, but alien and distant — and might not even notice that you’re siphoning away their power. The Fey are either dangerous and strange or utterly terrifying. Genies run the gamut. Celestials are mostly good. Hexblades may be vaguely associated with The Raven Queen.

My first character in 5e was a blade pact Great Old One warlock who never used eldritch blast. He was kind of a mess of a character. The biggest problem with warlocks in melee is they’re relatively fragile and breaking concentration on Hex when you take damage will eat into your limited spellslots per encounter.

[Sigreid]

There are a few ways to do non-evil warlock:

1. Celestial
2. Fae pact
3. Sacrificed himself for the power to safe others
4. Made a pact without knowing because he's an idiot
5. Made a pact and now has buyer's remorse
6. Formed a connection to an elder god without realizing what he was doing
7. Formed a pact with an elder god because he's a bit insane
8. Was raised in a cult that he has now escaped

Just to name a few. You can watch any number of horror movies where the protagonist has an evil connection/power and is seeking redemption for more.

[MoiMagnus]

If you look at Xanathar's suggestions on Patron attitude, and most of them are quite compatible with you being non-evil:
(1) & (3) Have the patron actually being benevolent
(2) & (5) Have implies that your relation with your patron is quite tense, so opposed alignments is a possibility

[Wraith]

Specifically, I want to do a cantrip/spellcasting focused warlock. Perhaps even a no EB build. What are people's thoughts on something like that?

If not Celestial Warlock, then Hexblade/Pact of Blade is probably the way to go. So many of a Warlock's synergies involve EB that to actively refuse it is going to cut you off from a fair old chunk of content, so the other way to go is melee and use magic for do extra damage or even AoE.

As an example I'd play it almost like a Paladin with a one-handed weapon and shield, as good armour as you can, and then you 'smite' every turn - albeit doing Thunder damage instead of radiant, and Cantrips instead of spending spell slots. Lightning Lure is good for controlling enemies and bringing them into Green-Flame Blade range, and Sword Burst or Thunderclap gives you AoE if you get surrounded.

As for your theme, Hexblade isn't particularly evil in any overt way. Perhaps a bit sinister depending on where you decide your power comes from, but that is optional and as I said above you could flavour it as a sort-of-Paladin that is being empowered by a particularly wrathful God rather than a demon or an 'entity'.

[Segev]

I've always wanted to do a long-term warlock, but most of the games I'm in discourage evil characters. I noticed celestial warlocks, and think that could fit pretty well. Specifically, I want to do a cantrip/spellcasting focused warlock. Perhaps even a no EB build. What are people's thoughts on something like that?

Perhaps more than many other classes, the Patron (subclass) option shapes the Warlock pretty heavily. Cantrips and spellcasting are something all Warlocks can do well, but what about being a "warlock" attracts you to it? Just the short-rest spell slot mechanics? Or something else? I suggest looking at various Patron features and seeing what you'd like to play with. WE can come up with ways to make that non-evil pretty easily, regardless of your choices.

Really, "cantrip-and-spell" + "warlock" suggests "Sorcerer/Warlock" to me. You don't have to go full coffeelock cheese to make that good.

[Kane0]

I've always wanted to do a long-term warlock, but most of the games I'm in discourage evil characters. I noticed celestial warlocks, and think that could fit pretty well. Specifically, I want to do a cantrip/spellcasting focused warlock. Perhaps even a no EB build. What are people's thoughts on something like that?

Literally any, though maybe keep away from fiend and hexblade to avoid sterotyping. Fey, Celestial and Genie are great options to point to and say 'not evil'

You can avoid EB, maybe ask your DM about applying EB invocations to other cantrips. Otherwise you can still focus more on weapons instead of cantrips

[EggKookoo]

The chainlock at my table is Archfey, and her patron appears to her as her grandmother. The PC herself is a shifter (from Eberron) so there's already a fey connection going on. Her familiar appears as her childhood stuffed animal. Of course, this level of cuteness might count as evil for some...

[neonchameleon]

I've always wanted to do a long-term warlock, but most of the games I'm in discourage evil characters. I noticed celestial warlocks, and think that could fit pretty well. Specifically, I want to do a cantrip/spellcasting focused warlock. Perhaps even a no EB build. What are people's thoughts on something like that?

Chiming in, this sounds fine to me - either with a non-evil patron (there are plenty including playing the Genie as not having a patron but simply being a young genie) or an antagonistic relationship with your patron.

You've obviously spotted the Pact of the Tome - and the ritual caster invocation. There are only a couple of ways to avoid Eldritch Blast/Agonizing Blast without your round to round DPR falling behind especially if you're not a sword-wielder, so I'd recommend just grabbing it.

[Greywander]

I've always wanted to do a long-term warlock, but most of the games I'm in discourage evil characters.
Warlocks are generally feared (I mean, you'd be wary of someone who made a "deal with a devil", wouldn't you?), but not necessarily evil. Even if we're talking a Fiend patron, so a literal deal with a devil, there are many reasons why such a bargain might have been struck. Sure, your patron may be evil, and you're probably not the most righteous person considering you thought it was okay to strike a bargain with a devil, but that doesn't make you evil. Maybe you were desperate, and took the only shot you thought you had. Maybe you wanted something that was itself innocuous, and weren't too concerned with the methods used to obtain it.

Moving beyond a Fiend patron, almost any other patron will work for a non-evil character. Archfey are generally chaotic, but can really run the gamut; some are evil, some are good, and some are just weird, as the fair folk often are. You can also use occult knowledge to find a way to siphon power from a Great Old One without them ever becoming aware of it. As someone else mentioned, you could refluff a Genie patron as just you being a young genie (as the Genie patron basically gives you genie powers, so it would represent a genie growing up and developing their abilities). And so on.


I noticed celestial warlocks, and think that could fit pretty well.
Celestial is good if you want to play a healer. You can BA heal for days (and cast a leveled spell with your action, unlike with Healing Word), and getting slots back on a short rest makes things like Lesser/Greater Restoration or Cure Wounds much more painless to use. Also, being able to come back to life with half your HP and blind nearby enemies with a blast of radiant damage is pretty cool, and useful for the party healer. Don't feel like you need to play a Celestial warlock just to play a non-evil character, though.

You might look specifically at the expanded spell lists for each patron and see if there are any spells that jump out at you. That could end up being more important to you than the specific features of each patron. Regardless of which patron you take, it shouldn't be too hard to fluff/refluff it in a way that makes sense for your character, even if you end up with a Fiend.


Specifically, I want to do a cantrip/spellcasting focused warlock. Perhaps even a no EB build. What are people's thoughts on something like that?
Celestial has an easier time with a no-EB build due to free Sacred Flame and later getting bonus damage. However, I'd softly caution against a no-EB build. For other casters, they're likely to be casting leveled spells most of the time, and only using cantrips as a backup. But for warlocks, you only have a few spell slots, so you'll be relying on your cantrips much more. Agonizing Blast basically doubles your damage output, and Repelling Blast adds a powerful, albeit situation rider effect (powerful, because it doesn't offer a save or have a size restriction; you hit, they move). My concern is that you'd find yourself stuck casting underwhelming cantrips and simply not having fun. I won't tell you not to run a no-EB warlock, I just want to make sure you're aware of what you're giving up by doing so.

As for a cantrip/spellcasting focus, it sounds like you're leaning toward Pact of the Tome. It's a great pact, allowing you to pick up some out-of-class cantrips, particularly those that aren't on any CHA caster list (although if you do run EB then you don't really need any other damage cantrips, so what stat it uses might not be relevant). You can also get access to a lot of useful rituals, as well as the ability to cast Sending at will on specific targets (via an invocation). If you're going straight warlock, then Tome is great. Personally, I like Chain a bit better, and Chain also works better if you end up multiclassing since it's entirely frontloaded. Even though Tomelocks do get access to Find Familiar via their ritual book, the Chainlock's improved familiar is just that much better that it greatly extends your utility. Still, Tome sounds more like what you're aiming for.

If you want more cantrips, also consider a sorcerer dip. You'll delay your warlock progression by one level, but in return you'll get 4 cantrips and a couple 1st level spell slots. You might even go as many as 3 levels into sorcerer for Font of Magic and Metamagic, though that's as far as you can go if you want your 9th level Mystic Arcanum. Or, you could dip into cleric and/or wizard for even more cantrips (and armor, in the case of cleric; cleric is pretty much a good dip for any caster class). However, I'd be careful about delaying your warlock progression too much. Maybe pick out a list of cantrips you want, and then figure out how to get them all, and if multiclassing is even necessary.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

I've always wanted to do a long-term warlock, but most of the games I'm in discourage evil characters. I noticed celestial warlocks, and think that could fit pretty well. Specifically, I want to do a cantrip/spellcasting focused warlock. Perhaps even a no EB build. What are people's thoughts on something like that?

So long as you don't change mechanics you can easily refluff anything to suit your needs. Question is what sort of patron and relationship are you looking to do? A no EB build is possible but typically done on Pact of the Blade builds. If you are looking at doing this with any of the others your best bet is to stick with Pact of the Tome of which you will be the ultimate ritual caster. Warlocks are not known for big blasty spells as like the Wizard but they just have as much, if not more, utility. This depends on what your are wanting to accomplish with being a spell caster.

[Reynaert]

I'm also loath to EB specifically, and my Celestial, Pact of the Blade with a longbow (improved pact weapon), with dex focus and sharpshooter and lifedrinker (and eldritch smite though I keep it for special occasions; haven't actually used it yet) is quite effective.

Most fights he can do one leveled spell, which can be quite the gamechanger, and he puts out substantial damage from long range.
The bonus action healing is pretty handy too (especially that one time I dumped an aoe on our swarmed frontliner, immediately followed by a heal).

[kazaryu]

I've always wanted to do a long-term warlock, but most of the games I'm in discourage evil characters. I noticed celestial warlocks, and think that could fit pretty well. Specifically, I want to do a cantrip/spellcasting focused warlock. Perhaps even a no EB build. What are people's thoughts on something like that?

so, as people have mentioned, warlocks don't have to be evil. they don't even have to be a servant of their patron. remember, a warlock just made a deal to get power. what the exact terms of that deal were could be a simple trade. 'rich kid trades his families fortune for power'. or a slightly more complicated trade 'i'll feed you souls for power'. but it needn't even be that. i had a PC where the deal was literally 'hey, you can use me as a conduit to communicate with your friend in the fire plane in exchange for power' (it was a gestalt character, and i let them dip warlock on both 'halves'. one patron was a phoenix, the other a coatl.) so...yeah, i mean others have really already covered that.

as far as non-EB. you can make a non EB-warlock work. however, you could instead just use EB, but instead of doing a damage focus with it (i.e. agonizing blast) go for the utility invocations. repelling blast, lace of lethargy, grasp of hadar. repelling blast specifically has a lot of potential for as a control effect, because as you level you can use each blast to push people further.

[Unoriginal]

Raxxivort, who is a Fiendish demigod, is known to grant Warlock Pacts to people who offer him a magic item of note.

[RogueJK]

Celestial has an easier time with a no-EB build due to free Sacred Flame and later getting bonus damage. However, I'd softly caution against a no-EB build. For other casters, they're likely to be casting leveled spells most of the time, and only using cantrips as a backup. But for warlocks, you only have a few spell slots, so you'll be relying on your cantrips much more. Agonizing Blast basically doubles your damage output, and Repelling Blast adds a powerful, albeit situation rider effect (powerful, because it doesn't offer a save or have a size restriction; you hit, they move). My concern is that you'd find yourself stuck casting underwhelming cantrips and simply not having fun. I won't tell you not to run a no-EB warlock, I just want to make sure you're aware of what you're giving up by doing so.

Celestial is the best option for a non-EB Warlock. But not necessarily just due to Sacred Flame. Check out the Celestial Generalist build here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

You can totally delete EB from that build, and still be competitive with your damage, provided you're focusing more on melee utilizing Shillelagh + Green Flame Blade + Radiant Soul. This allows you to stack scaling d8 damage dice plus add your CHAMOD to melee damage *twice*: once from Shillelagh and again from Radiant Soul triggering off GFB's fire damage. Still lags a little bit behind EB+AB in damage output (especially if using Hex to add another d6 to each of your EB rays), but not as much as otherwise.

And you still have a decent ranged backup option with Sacred Flame's Xd8+CHAMOD. Or potentially pick up Fire Bolt as one of your Tome cantrips, and get Xd10+CHAMOD. (Though that's not really worth spending a third of your free cantrips just to grab another point or two of ranged cantrip damage, especially since it's fire vs. radiant.)

If you want some forced movement on this non-EB Celestial Warlock, you could take Thorn Whip as one of your Tome cantrips, and/or take the Telekinetic feat for a Bonus Action CHA-based shove/pull effect.

So even without EB, you can still put out enough cantrip damage to remain competitive (especially in melee), and still have some of the same capabilities as EB. Plus you then free up several Invocations to spend on ones that otherwise might be overlooked. Plus you won't feel compelled to use Hex all the time to boost your EB damage, so you can spend your Concentration on other fun spells, and use that spell known to pick up something else.

I'm a fan of this non-EB Celestial Generalist build for folks who wants to play a Warlock but who are bored with the usual "I cast Eldritch Blast ad nauseum" Warlock. It really lets you explore all the other fun things that Warlocks can do when they're not using their Invocations and Concentration mostly just to maximize their Eldritch Blast damage output.

[RedMage125]

OP:
Celestial Warlock is a good choice, but there are non-evil options for all of the other pacts.

The #1 thing to remember is: The idea that "the Pact = 'selling your soul'" is 100% optional and isn't even explicitly mentioned in the PHB. Only referenced obliquely in "Stories of warlocks making pacts with fiends are widely known".

PHB also gives you the opportunity to explore the idea that your warlock may have made their pact unwittingly. Perhaps you ate some Fey food and now you're a bound agent of that archfey. Perhaps you were a scholar and discovered some forbidden knowledge of a Great Old One, and now you can draw on a fraction of its power, but the GOO neither knows nor cares about your existence.

Your backstory could have had you meet a seemingly normal traveler on the road, and you helped/saved them. They granted you powers in return (traveler was a fey/celestial/whatever in disguise). Of similar note, if you freed a captive genie, they could have given you a small measure of their power as a way of thanks, the vessel you freed them from is the one in your class feature. Either way, these backgrounds present a patron that wants nothing from the warlock, as their powers are payment for a deed already done.

Your patron could be a being who wants nothing from you because they are no longer an active entity. Perhaps your character was a scholar who found a way to draw on the power of a being of great power who has since been destroyed, only echoes of them remain (what we called Vestiges in previous editions). This would work for an Undying or Undead patron, especially.

I've had a player come up with a backstory back in 4e for a Feylock. His father disappeared when he was an infant, to seek a way to make his son's life better. Father never came home, but when the child reached adulthood, a mysterious fey gifted him with an elaborate longsword, told him it was a gift from his father. When he took it, he felt power flow through him. His father is paying the price for his pact with a century of servitude, and he gets the benefit. In character, he doesn't know that his father is serving an archfey, that was going to be a plot point later.

And this story reminds me that if the fluff for the Hexblade Pact is too obscure and weird, you could always flavor it as a "warrior focused" version of any other pact. Like, if you received a blade like the aforementioned fey pact, your pact could be with an archfey, but your gifts are more warrior-focused, hence the Hex Warrior abilities. Or just blatantly steal from existing media. I maintain vehemently that He-Man is a Hexblade Warlock.

And one of my favorite concepts is a Sailor background Fiend Pact Warlock. Short version is that he ended up on an island due to a storm, and helped out some Order who was trying to prevent a cult from releasing a powerful fiend. He helped participate in a ritual that imprisoned said fiend. Everyone who participated in the ritual is stealing a measure of the fiend's power, weakening it. They are all "Locks" on the prison of this fiend. And they go out and adventure, because as they increase in power (i.e. levelling up), they are siphoning even more power from the fiend. They also try and stay away from each other, because in theory, if the fiend's minions killed enough of them, the power would return to the fiend and it could escape (and hunt down any remaining warlocks). So this is a Fiend Pact Warlock that is definitely not evil, and is, in fact, stealing a fiend's power for use for good, AND it hands the DM a future plot point, if enough of the other warlocks get killed and that fiend comes after the PCs. And although my character used Sailor background, literally ANY background works.

The TL;DR is that I have never seen Warlock as a class that even lends itself towards "evil character", or even "evil lite". MAYBE "edgelord" concepts, but most of my ideas don't even tread that path.

[nickl_2000]

Ever read the Dresden files? You could definitely build Harry Dresden as a Pact of the Tome Fey Warlock. He's not perfect, but he certainly isn't evil.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've always wanted to do a long-term warlock, but most of the games I'm in discourage evil characters. My current build, vhuman, celestial, pact of the tome.
Cantrips: Chill Touch, Eldritch Blast, Shocking Grasp, Light, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Light, Sacred Flame, Guidance (Drop in something else for EB as needed - I suggest Mild Sliver from Tasha's, YMMV)
Spells(Ritual):
Alarm, Find Familiar (Original); the subsequent rituals are...Water Breathing, Skywrite, TFD, Detect Magic, Magic Mouth, Locate Animals, Leomund's Tiny Hut
Spells: Fly, Revivify, Dimension Door, Fear, Remove Curse; Banishment, Sickening Radiance, Greater Restoration, Wall of Light {our party has no cleric}
Favorite Uncommon Magic Item: Wand of Web. {+1 Studded Leather allowed me to drop armor of shadows invocation}
Invocations: Repelling Blast, Whispers of the Grave, Devil's Sight, Mask of Many Faces, Book of Ancient Secrets.

Her familiar is usually a parrot or an owl. Sailor Background.

Drop repelling blast and add another invocation to taste since you aren't doing EB. (I'd suggest Toll the Dead from the cleric list as you make adjustments to your three cantrips at level 3; it's a nice damage doer)

[Gignere]

Ever read the Dresden files? You could definitely build Harry Dresden as a Pact of the Tome Fey Warlock. He's not perfect, but he certainly isn't evil.

He’s been a fiend lock, a celestial lock, and now a fey lock with also lots of levels in wizard. Also with pretty much 18 or higher in all his abilities other than charisma.

[nickl_2000]

He’s been a fiend lock, a celestial lock, and now a fey lock with also lots of levels in wizard. Also with pretty much 18 or higher in all his abilities other than charisma.

He's a fictional hero, someone definitely cheated when rolling his stat block :smallwink:

I phrased it carefully to say that you could build it that way, it's just a literary example of how a Warlock can make a deal with someone who is evil but not be evil themselves.